November 11, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode, investigative journalist Adam Shand revisits the extraordinary criminal career of Bertram Douglas “Bertie” Kidd — safe-breaker, armed robber, race fixer and serial corruptor of police who may also have been a killer.
After attending Kidd’s funeral, Adam sits down with former New South Wales detective Phil Short, one of the officers who finally brought the notorious underworld figure down. Together, they trace the investigation that ended Kidd’s decades-long run — from corrupt cops and missing witnesses in the 1970s to the chaotic 1997 Brisbane factory robbery that sealed his fate.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
A pot production.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm your Host
Adam Shann. In July this year, I attended the funeral
of Bertram Douglas Kidd, who was one of Australia's most
complete crooks. A safe breaker, armed robber, race fixer, dedicated
corruptor of police and most likely a multiple murderer who
killed out of convenience or revenge. It didn't much matter.
(00:36):
I'd met kid within the walls of Gold and Supermac's
prison before his release from jail.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
One of Australia's oldest criminals, eighty one year old Robert
Bertie Kidd, says he'll fight a plan to deport him
back to his native United Kingdom when he's released from
prison next month.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
He was a much reduced figure. Jail had essentially broken him.
In fact, it was hard to imagine that this little
old man had once been one of Australia's most ruthless crooks,
developed a reputation as a master safecutter, armed robber, burglar
and standover man.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
He was a well rounded, violent criminal who'd take any
opportunity without concern for the welfare of the community of
New South Wales.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
He was serving a long stretch for a series of
vicious home invasions, but his run had finished in Queensland
in nineteen ninety seven when he was arrested during a
robbery of a chemical factory in Brisbane. He was already
sixty two at the time, an age when most crooks
are leaving this to younger villains, but here he was
shooting that with police before wisely surrendering. Police called Kid
(01:42):
one of the country's most dangerous old school villains. He
told me he'd gotten ay with many things in his
criminal career, and now he's dead. The stories will be told.
I was contacted by one of the police officers who
put Kid away in nineteen ninety seven, and he's agreed
to fill in the gaps of Kid's CV, including several
(02:03):
unsolved murders and disappearances. It's my pleasure to welcome forming yourself.
I was Detective Philip Short to the Real Crime Studio,
did I phil there?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
You?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Adam, tell me how did Bert Kidd rank amongst the
villains you dealt with over your long career.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
He was certainly probably the most vicious and violent criminal,
for sure, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
And how did you first come to be involved in
taking him down.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I was at the organized crime branch and Kid came
to the attention of police when we had information that
he was going to import some automatic machine pistols into Australia.
The job wasn't handed to me, it was handed to
another team and they had a strategy of introducing an
undercover officer into kids orbit, trying to get me into
(02:50):
his criminal mendew and trying to get some more information
on this importation. And how I came to be involved
is that in mid nine to ninety seven a police
force was being reorganized under a new commissioner. An organized
ryan was being shut down and everyone was being transferred away.
So I was still there and the job was just
(03:11):
handed to me to be the case officer of it.
So I inherited the job about mid nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Okay, and what was your strategy on approaching Kid Well.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
The strategy was to continue with the undercover officer being
introduced to Kim's orbit and to get that done, he
was introduced to a fellow by name a Gary Page.
Our Page is an old school crook who had done
time for manslaughter and he was a close associate of Kid.
So our undercover officer had a number of meetings with
Page over the months. They were productive and that we
(03:45):
bought some one out slots of heroin off Page and
they were of a fairly high purity, so there probably
straight from the importer. And we also purchased two Smith
and Wesson revolvers. Now those guns had the serial numbers
filed off them, but through forensic we were able to
find out what those numbers will there, and it turns
(04:05):
out they were stolen during an armor guard robbery some
years earlier. So we had had some success, but the
undercover officer never got to make Kid.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Because Bertie was very, very cautious about undercovers. He dealt
with police a lot. I mean, in his early days
in Victoria, he actually had police on his payroll who
would tell him where to find the juicy safe that
he'd liked to break into. So he understood police procedures,
he understood the use of undercovers. So you had to
approach him with a high level of skill and caution,
(04:37):
and we did.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
We didn't surveil him with physical surveillance because he was
under counter surveillance all the time. He wasn't lazy, he
wasn't a lazy crook. He was always on and he
wouldn't talk over the phone, or if he met with
another crook, he'd meet in the park or go to
a park. So it was very hard to get anything
on him.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And so you have a stroke of luck in that
your team gets transferred to the NCAA, the National Crime Authority,
which was always a good thing back in the day
because they had all the resources, plenty of money, plenty
of guns, plenty of technology. What was the reason the
NCAA got involved.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Well, initially, organized crime was shut down and we were
transferred to another investigative unit called the Special Investigation Unit,
and we continued on there with our investigation. And we
were only there for about two or three weeks and
we got an overnight transferred to the NCAA myself from
the whole team, and that was fortuitous, and that we
(05:37):
were transferred to a small office that was run by
an officer who was a detective chief and inspect there
at the time called Bob Ingst. He's pretty well known
amongst police circles, very famous, very competent detective and he
had a couple of other COVID investigations running so we
just fitted into that office and we continued as we
(05:59):
were Because prior to moving to the National Crime Authority,
I considered that the job was burned because our undercover
officer went a bit off script. He and Page went
to the city to meet with a well known heroine importer.
He was faced to go there and meet, get what
information he could, and then return, get in his own
(06:19):
car and leave. Unfortunately, came out with Page. Two other
males got in a different car and left. Our physical
surveilance wasn't set up to take another car away, so
we lost him for a short time. So we had
to activate the sirens and the surilans cars and try
and locating the people in the car with their undercover officer.
(06:40):
They heard the approaching sirens stop the car, got out
and walked away, so I think their antennas are up
that there was something on after that. I think it
was too dangerous to send the undercover back.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
In right because Page seemed to twig that there might
be a listing device on his phone, and I presume
was telling his mates, including Kid.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Well. I don't think Page twigged. I think Kid told
him because we were only the National Crime Authority for
a number of days when Page was on his phone
telling people that he thought there was a bug in
his phone. So he left the unit and returned a
short time later, and he went as straight where a
listing device was hidden. Now, you wouldn't have known where
(07:24):
it was. You wouldn't have found it unless you were
told where it was. So I'm assuming that kid had
some intel where the listing device was.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Things just go from bad to worse because you arrest
Page on some drug and firearms offenses and the following
day your unit gets raided and staff detained.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Why was that, well, we were rated at the National
Crime Authority. The Special Investigation Unit was raided unberknownst to us.
There was a Police Integrity Commission investigation and internal affairs
investigation into a certain staff member there that subsequently left
to a pic hearing, and there was only one officer
(08:03):
that was found to be corrupted out of the whole group.
It really tainted the whole group.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So this really throws U spanner in the works. You've
now got to go to a new strategy. In October
nineteen ninety seven, you get a new informant who was
that well.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
We received information at that time. Already at that time
we'd identify whose kids likely team were to commit crying
and that was of course Page, but he was under
arrest and bar refused. And there was a fellow called
Mark Middleton, an old school crook called Eric murray In Smith,
who was a prison officer in Brisbane, which was surprising now.
(08:41):
How Smith got into their criminal group was Middleton was
in a Brisbane prison where Smith was working and they
got to be friends. And when Middleton got out of prison,
they continue to be friends and Smith joined their criminal group.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
He proved to be the weak link which arguably brought
kid down. Your informant, you still can't name him because
you never know, and this life, it can be dangerous
for informants, even their children if the informant is dead.
But this informant was giving you a lot of historical information,
including probably a couple of murders that kid had committed
(09:22):
back in the nineteen seventies. Tell us more about that.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, when I say informant, this was just someone that
came forward and gave us information. So he wasn't really
working that much with us, but he gave us some
good information. And one of the bits that we got
was that Kid had murdered two witnesses in the seventies,
and we were told that the two were involved in
a safe job in Victoria with Kid and when Bus said,
(09:45):
they had agreed to inform mon him try and help
themselves with any sentencing. And we're also told that one
of them worked at the business they broke into.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It was Spindler and Pollock. That's really the business. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Now we're also told that Kid disposed of their bodies
in a vertical hole. And he told us that Kid
owned a Jesus had a post driller on a truck
and they did work all over Victoria and that's what
he used to dig a hole and Barry's victim. So
due to the witnesses disappearing, he walked on that particular
matter and it didn't proceed.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, those two individuals were Leo Albert Martel and Brian
Lawrence Keating. Bubba Martell as he was known, was quite
a close associate of Kid for quite a while. And
there's been a couple of books written on Kid. And
in the book, he talks about this whole incident and
he goes into the police station and he sees Bubba
(10:40):
Martel talking to the police, and of course that sort
of coded information there, because Kid used to say that
you never talked to police unless you got your lawyer
with you. So the insinuation was that Buba was giving
information freely, which was not a good sign for Buba's health.
(11:01):
So as they're getting closer to the proceedings there, they
both disappear. Martel and Keating, that's.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Right, and the fellow we were looking at. He was
thirty five at the time of the offense and he'd
be ninety two now and Keating was twenty five at
the time of the offense and he'd be eighty two now.
So they've been missing for fifty four years.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And yet when I look on the Victoria Police Missing
Persons website, they're not even mentioned.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, we made it after Kid was arrested. We made
inquiries ourselves. That's what we found. There wasn't a stroke
of a pen in relation than being missing. And it
was unusual in that Martella had been married twice and
I understand that he's de facto second wife died about
a year before his disappearance, but he had so he
(11:50):
was a single father to I think it was five children.
I could be wrong there, but it was quite a
few and he just disappeared. And we did speak to
one of his siblings and they said, yeah, he wouldn't
have done that until we hadn't heard heard from him
since seventy one to ninety seven. They hadn't heard from him.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
That's unfortunate for the family because I'm sorry, if it
was me, i'd expect this case to still be open,
that there might be information that could be lady even
today to bring some sort of closure to his children,
both of their children's.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, it's fairly old now fifty four years. It's certainly suspicious,
and I don't think they've just gone walk about. In fact, Keating.
I spoke to one of the detectives from Malvin who
was in charge of the case at the time, and
he told me that Keating had made a call to
his barrasses saying he's on his way to court the
(12:44):
day of the court hearing, and he just disappeared, never
turned up, So that narrows down his disappearance still a
couple of hours.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Were you surprised that the Vics didn't want to take
this up and maybe even go and speak to the
dirtie kid.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Well, I don't know. Maybe this' noted under. I don't
know what. I made a statement in nine and he
ate about our information to Victoria Police and maybe the
follow it up and they found him. I just don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I don't think they had been found as far as
I know. I was checking with my contacts and it's
just sort of a gap. It's a gap in history
the whereabouts of Martel and Keating. The informant also gave
you information about another possible murder that Bertie was involved
with or potentially involved with.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Well, this was a funny one in that there wasn't
much infa really. He said a kid murdered a bloke
who was a foreign man. He murdered him because he
beat a former girlfriend of kids, and the possible location
was Double Bay where they did the murder. And that
was about it. So there wasn't much to go on.
But I read Kid's second book, The Notorious Kid, and
(13:49):
he was in here, as he comments in a chapter
titled Operation Jerry, where he states that Jerry had a
thick guttural check accent and that he beat and stole
from Margo, a former girlfriend of kids, and Kids states
that he and friends visited Jerry told him to go
to a safe house where he would be given a
plane ticket the following day, and he was at leave
(14:10):
Australia and not return. I'd be skeptical of that outcome.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, he might not have made it to the airport unfortunately.
And there's also suspicion that Bertie might have had a
role in the death of his girlfriend a bit later
on Christine Christiotti, who was quite wealthy and a beautiful woman.
They had a child together. She also chose to give
evidence against Bertie Kid and nothing good came of it
(14:36):
for her.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Well, I don't think bert had anything to do with
her death. She was a bit of a sad case.
She was an own heroin addict in Australia and she
inherited a sizeable sum of money and went to live
in Balin. She returned to Australia in nineteen ninety eight
when Kid was in jail and was likely to do
a long stint. She was interviewed by police and did
(14:59):
not divulge anything, whether it was from fear of Kid
or whatever. Prior to her returning to Balley, she attended
her accountant where she gave instructions about her estate that
Kid was not to have anything to do with her
estate and everything was to go to her son, who
she shared with Kid. So they were her last spoken
(15:21):
words to her accountant. She returned to Balley and overdosed
on heroin shortly after returning. So I don't think Bert
was enrolled in that murder.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
And you don't think she was giving evidence against.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Him at that stage. No. It may have changed once
a sentence was handed down, but at that stage no, she.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Was clearly terrified of him, and she was an experienced
heroin addict. It's unusual that an experienced addict would overdose
like that. There was suspicion about this, There's certainly suspicion,
but not enough to go forward with. It happened in
another jurisdiction. You didn't get forensics. It was just another
unfortunate drug death. Maybe if it occurred in Australia where
(16:04):
forensics could have done a bit more.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Who knows.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Anyway, rolling back to the main game, you're now looking
at Kid and as he called it, a project was emerging.
What was that project that you were starting to get
a sense of as you worked on him.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
The project that we were working on in just prior
to his arrests in late November early December ninety ninety seven,
electronic and physical silence was increased as we believe the
Kidney's crew were going to do another home invasion and
this time in Castle Cove in Sydney. So we had
kid Middleton and Murray was surveiled on a number of
(16:41):
occasions going to an address in Castle Cove. The last
of our observations are only four days before they did
their job in Queensland. Now they went through a number
of occasions. They make observations that get out of their car,
walk around and that fitted him with information received that
when kid did things like home invasions, he'd do dry
(17:02):
runs so that if he was and the police were
watching him, but move in. So our strategy was we'd
observe them, but if they tooled up to do a job,
we had to stay protection group on stand by a
short distance a way to move in. We did dawn
off that particular street and we determined the victim was
most likely the owner of a Chinese restaurant, again looking
(17:26):
for cash.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
But not a criminal, just a business person going about
their commerce.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
No, he's targets were wealthy people.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Because he liked to say that he only went after
bullies and crooks. Was that true when you could look
at this series of home invasions?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
No, no, no, we're already looking at him for two
home invasions. He did want of Boney Bay in Sydney
South where he had information again that the victim had
cash on the premises. So the three offenders Middleton, Kid
and Smith into the premises and bailed up a husband
and his wife. Now the mail was down in a
(18:06):
kid beating with a small sledgehammer, broke numerous bones and
colluding a fractioned skull. But the victim couldn't tell him
that the cash was because he wasn't leaning on the premises.
So in the end, kid put the shotgun to his
head and pulled the trigger. It didn't go off. So
whether that was a bluff or old amminition, who knows.
As particularly vicious home invasion, and the male victim recovered,
(18:31):
but his wife was in remission from cancer and she
actually died before the trial. The three of them were
convicted for that bet offense, and.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
They came a lot later. But meanwhile, you're now looking
at him with some urgency because he's red hot he's
an old man, but he's red hot now and you
see that he may have a target in Brisbane, a
factory up there. How did that come to light?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Well, that came to light because we picked up through
electronic surveillance between Smith and his wife. They were talking
in code, but it wasn't much of a code, so
we were able to determine that they're going to rob
a chemical factory in the Brisbane suburb of rock Lee.
It was going to occur most likely on a Friday,
(19:15):
the troth of December, around the close of business. So
due to that information, we up the surveillance on Smith
in Brisbane and Middleton in Sydney, and we put a
loose watching kid, but we didn't want to do anything
too much.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Well why was that because he was pretty he was
on the ball.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah, yeah, he practiced counter surveillance all the time, so
that kicked off the surveillance operation for that And on
the tenth of December Middleton collected another man called Brett
Newcomb and they traveled by a car to Brisbane and
the New South Wales and NCAA surveillance teams they had
(19:53):
eyes on them the whole time. In Brisbane, Smith was
observed to go and buy a white Ford panel van.
He bought it under a different name, and his wife
Ronica drave him to pick up car.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
And this is now Smith, the former prison officer, who's
the weak Lincoln, the whole thing. I mean, it almost
seems like to me that Bertie's almost passed it. He's
compromised his methods, he's working with people he shouldn't and
gave you guys an absolute in and now you're following
all the steps going up to the robbery.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
One hundred percent, leaving an absolute breadcrumb trail. I thought
the same thing. Kids working with the prison officer who
is always going to roll if they get caught, And
if I can put it this way, they're not proper criminals.
They did things of proper criminals wouldn't do so at
that stage, we're the end of the eleventh of December
in Smith, Middleton and Yarcom. We had eyes on them
(20:46):
all the time. They are observed to buy go to
hardware shops and buy plastic buckets, gloves, plastic bags. They
went to Railway Crescent, Rockley and they were making observations
of where the chemical factory was located, so that was
a good indicator that that was the place.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Following day, I believe Kid flies to Brisbane and meets
the other three at the Breakfast Creek Hotel. Good steaks there,
but they went there for the food, that's right.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I thank you every visiting policemen from New South Wales
been to the Breakfast Creek Hotel anyway, they observed to
meet there. And what was interesting is one of the
surveillance guys from Brisbane, who didn't know what Kid looked like,
went into the hotel and observed the meeting and he
said to three of them met up with an old
guy who was the meanest old guy I've ever seen
in my life. So Kid was laying down the wall.
(21:37):
Yeah he's pumpkin on. He looked a big mean So.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
How many people were involve? This is a big deal
because Bertie's a big ticket item now, string of home
invasions a pedigree as long as your arm. There was
not going to be any mistakes here. There was a
big team involved well from.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
The surveillance teams. For instance, the National Crime AUTH already
had twelve surveillance operatives TRIEL vehicles. We had the New
South Wales and Queensland silence squads on it all at
the same time, so there was plenty of roll over
with the vehicles and they had eyes on the whole
crew the whole time.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
What was the target in this factory? I believe it
was pseudo effigent. Bertie had always, I guess, talked big
about hating drugs and so forth, but instead of refigen
was one of those key ingredients in making amphetamines and
ecstasy and so forth. That's right, And their info was
that they could get a forty four gallon drummer this
stuff which were worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
But the whole prelude to this job. You're right in
that kids losing it to a fair Debreathe he didn't
do a dry run. He's trusting people he shouldn't trust,
and they're not picking up that they're being followed. So
it was a fitting ding, I think.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
But there was still a dramatic moment to come because
kid leads the raid on the factory.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
What happened what happened there is probably not up to
me to say, because we briefed the Queensland Police all
the time on everything we had, and we sent a
couple of officers up to Lias because at that stage
Kid didn't leave to go up to Coeensleyan till the
troth at the sent of the day of the robbery,
but they are observed to drive the white Penaline from
(23:13):
two Rock Lee. They parked outside of the chemical factory.
They don the masks and heat of the premises. With
Kid having a three five seven magnum Smith and Wisdom
revolver which was owned by Smith, he was licensed to
have the gun.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Oh my god, bad move.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Well, yeah, he's as guilty as the person who pulls
the trigger. So he's an idiot.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Well, I mean the usual m I would have been
defined a stolen weapon with no serial numbers, no connection
to anybody. So this was again an evidentiary trail that
would sink them all. Although of course he was captured.
But I mean there was other bungles as well, because
when they get in there, they discover the pseudo's not
even there. Their target was not even available.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
That's right. It's not like a bird kid job planned
at all. It was like, you know, this is your
first or second robbery. To be honest, we were lucky.
He'd really stuffed it up, you know. It paid off
for us. We were lucky and he was unlucky due
to his own incompetence. So Sir of the Coinsline Special
Emergency responds to him, I think they're the guys dressed
(24:21):
in black with the big weapons, and they weren't on
the scene. And at the time the offenders entered the factory,
but all the surveillance teams were so they ended a
factory in demand at the shootout, which they couldn't get.
So they got some other prohibited drugs that they got
from the factory, which probably weren't worth a lot. And
inside the factory, which proved what a old school crook
(24:44):
kid was, he found a second rear entrance. Now, at
the conclusion of the robbery, kids sent the other three
offenders out to their vehicle and he waited inside. At
that stage, suit were on the scene in a bolo
that vehicle in and the other three gave up without
a fight.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
But Kid's not finished yet. He goes out through that
back door and he sees a surveillance operative in the
vehicle a short distance away. He doesn't give up.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
We've got on this. Surnalians that he was actually approaching
the rear insurance slowly and Kid didn't run away from it.
He ran to it and started to shoot at the vehicle.
So the surveillance officer got out of his car and
returned fire. They think he fired four shots, and Kid
and the officer it's shane shots with bullets going through
the roof the door in the rear window, and eventually
(25:31):
one bullet ricocheted off the roof and struck the officer
in the wrist. He fell to the ground and Kid
took off trying to escape through a construction area.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And they're still in hot pursuit of the Sert officers
and they're firing warning shots. I mean, at this point,
sense prevails because it's pretty likely here that unless kid
gives up, he's going to be full of holes. The
Sert officers, the soldier cops, they're not going to let
him go, and they're ready for the fight. And he's
also been firing at Queensland Police officers already, so I
guess all bets are off they can shoot this offender. Yeah,
(26:06):
and I think they're entitled a shooting there and then,
to be honest, But anyway, they fired into the ground.
You know, he went to the dirt straight away. He
just laid on his stomach, Henes outstretched right. That was
the end of a I'm not going to call it
a magnificent run, but certainly a long run. And he
gets charged with m robbery, violence and company attempted murder
shooting to avoid apprehension. How did you feel when you
(26:29):
were when you heard all about this.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
It was a bit of a relief. I mean, we're
all disappointed that it ended up someone being wounded from outside.
I mean that shouldn't have happened, but you know, to
put an end of this bike was pretty broading for
the whole team. I mean it was a big team
that worked on him and everyone put in, not just me.
It was a whole team that ended up getting this blake.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
It did effectively end his run because he served a
stretch up in Queensland and then he was extraduted down
to New South Wales to face the home invasion charges.
So it really led to the end of his run.
So I guess you could, in one sense be called
his nemesis Philip Short.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I wouldn't say that's me. I think there was a
whole team. There was Bobbings who was leading the team,
and there was the surveillance guys, all the analysts. I
think the whole team put in an equal amount of effort.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
That's right and a good result. As you say, it
was unfortunate that one of your side got wounded. But
kid was in custody and that was the end of him.
But I guess a lot of people say that Berdie
Kidd got off pretty lightly in there because he was
involved in let's say four murders. There was a couple
more back in nineteen ninety two or nineteen ninety one,
(27:39):
the murders of Roy Thurger and Dessie Lewis. Tell us
a bit about those and why he was suspected of
those murders.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yeah, I suspect the kid's good for both of them.
We did receive some information about the Thurgar murder, and
that was Thurgo owned a laundromat and Allison Street, Breenwick,
and he commonly went there of an evening. I think
his wife may have worked there and Thurgar vegle was
parked out the front. Now it had a dicky ignition
(28:08):
switch and that you had to jiggle the key to
get it to work, and as he was doing that,
kid came across the road tapped on the window, Thurgo
looked up and his shot him. I think he died
the next day or the day after. What was interesting
is after the murder, Kid went straight to the Quarry Hotel,
which is situated near the Cydney Police Center and now's
(28:29):
a common drinking spot for police, especially detectives. So he
started to a being near a group of detectives and
one of the guys was from the Pole Up squad
and of course he recognized him, but it was not
known by anse police. But this guy recognized him, so
he spoke to him and put in an information report.
So it was pretty clever because if kid was ever
(28:51):
tapped on the shoulder for it, I think it sounds
would sound convincing to a jury that hang on, he
was drinking with police twenty twenty five minutes afterwards.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, so had opportunity, I guess, but had an alibi.
But he also had a motive. The murder of Michael
Sayers back in nineteen eighty five. Sayers was an associative
kid that he was part of his team, part of
his social circle, and Roy Thurger had been boasting around
Sydney that he killed Michael Sayers, who was a pretty
willing crook in his own right. By the way, do
(29:23):
you think that was the motive.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, I think that's the motive. Big Sayers was a
good friend of the kids at the end of his life.
I think Big says, oh, the wrong people a fair
bit of money. Fergo was on that side of the
criminal element, and so Sayers wasn't paying back the money.
So Hergar and a number of I think there were
two others killed Sayers.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
That's right, And the paymaster in that case was probably
heroin dealer Barry mccannon, I understand.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
I don't know if it was mckainn or one another,
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Or Danny Chubb. There's a whole crew you could have ended.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I think Chubb would be a good one to probably
look at the.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Right and they all met grizzly ends didn't in this
period pick your dead villain in this case. And then
Dassi Lewis. Why was Daisy Lewis killed?
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Well, it could be just pettiness. I mean noteds are varied.
Kid has one in his book about that. Kid and
Lewis and Jockey Smith were on opposite sides. Lewis on
one side with Jockie Smith and Kid on the other
There was also that Kid had an altercation with or
an argument with Lewis at the Lord Nelson Hotel sometime
(30:37):
earlier and Lewis asked him to step it outside. Now,
Lewis was a former boxer and I think he would
have punish Kid, so Kid to kind of fired him,
and I think he'd lost a bit of faith. That
could be one motive. But Kid was certainly involved because
after his arrest we did a number of search warrants
in Sydney, one at a black Colleric Murray's place, and
(31:00):
we recovered amount of equipment curling paler class and shotgun
ammunition and two shotguns. And one of those shotguns was
a forensic match for the murder weapon of Des Lewis.
So he certainly was involved. And I think he probably
pulled the trigger.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
So was there never enough to charge him over those murders?
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Do you think? No? He had a pretty good alibi,
and his alibi was Christine Christiotti. They were allegedly at
a function in Double Bay and I think they were
there and others a verified Kid was present. My theory
is that Kid left the function was driven a short
distance from Double Bay to Bondi Junction. He waited him
(31:43):
for Lewis and then ambushed him when he returned home,
and then Kid just returned to the function.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
And whatever evidence Christine Christiotti could have given went to
her grave with her as she died of a heroin overdose. Simbali,
as we said earlier, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
That's a shame. It's not not much else to go
on in that particular murder.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, And of course you retire not long after this,
don't you.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah. I retire and medically retired in two thousand and
one with some unique injuries. So that was the end
of my involvement. I left organized crime in ninety eight
and a few of the other police took over the
home invasions and finished off the brief. And they did
a great job in putting the home invasions and another
(32:29):
robbery on the kid.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
And you were called as a witness in those cases,
weren't you.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Well, I was called as a witness and went in.
But Kid and the others changed their police to guilty.
It was a pretty solid brief, so I think to
avoid extra time and give them some help of getting out,
they pleaded guilty to all matters.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
And this was your chance to at least look at
kid in the face, wasn't it.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yes, I wanted to see how he took it before
hour involved, But I think he'd only done about six
years prison, so it hadn't done a lot of serious jail,
and I knew he was going to get a fairly
good leg for these offenses. So when the judge eventually
handed down what was in total a twenty six year
top sentence and twenty one on the bottom, he showed
(33:17):
no emotion. It could have been your issue with a
parking ticket. You can leave nothing at all, no emotion.
He just copped it.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Because those old style crooks they used to take jail
as occupational hazard. But you had to do some jail
from time to time. But this was a long lagging
and it was really the end of his criminal career.
So you could take that as an achievement in your career,
I suppose.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah. I think for all of us it was a
great achievement to see him go away for a long
time because he was going to continue to commit a
serious crime. He wasn't going to.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Stop, and as you say, the mistakes in the Brisbane
job probably should have told him that it was time
to give it up. Before this, he.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Would have been embarrassed by I didn't give evidence at
the committal hearing in Brisbane for thosees, and my evidence
was in relation to the voice identification of the people
on telephones. And the look on his face was I
swear if he had those people in adopt ex thing,
he would have tried to kill them. They're really broad
him undone.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Well, so thanks for sharing those memories there, Phil, I
think it's an amazing thing. I'd like to think there's
some way that the Keating and Martell families could finally
get some sort of closure. Are going to be talking
to the Victoria police down here and see if they've
got any interest in following up these cases and maybe
even dusting off your old information, even if your informants
still out there. I'm not quite sure if he would be,
but it'd be nice to see these things because I'm
(34:41):
sure over your career it's one thing to be a
crook involved in the hurly burly of offending, but the
families do suffer, and I'm sure that his children, both
those families, you know, the kids of both those men
suffered as a result of the unexplained disappearance of their fathers.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, no doubt about it. You know they're involved in
crime themselves, but just the same they deserve to, you know,
if their disappearance investigated, Whether it comes to anything or not,
it deserves to be investigate.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
That's Philip Short, retired in South Wales detective on bringing
down Bertram Douglas kid. Now there is another volume coming
out of his trilogy. I think it's going to be
one book and the same author, Simon Griffin, is putting
together some much I'm going to afford some of this
stuff to Simon and it may up in the story.
But do you wonder this final version was supposed to
(35:37):
be kept until after Vert's death, and I wonder how
much he's going to reveal in this final volume. Will
he talk about the deaths of Thurger, of Lewis, of Martel,
of Keating? Does he have a conscience? Finally, that's a
really good question. If you have any stories for me,
please get in touch Adam Sander writer at gmail dot com.
(35:59):
If you've got some information you want to tell the police,
call crime Stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero.
This is Bean Adam shann for real crime. Thank you
for listening.
A pot production.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm your Host
Adam Shann. In July this year, I attended the funeral
of Bertram Douglas Kidd, who was one of Australia's most
complete crooks. A safe breaker, armed robber, race fixer, dedicated
corruptor of police and most likely a multiple murderer who
killed out of convenience or revenge. It didn't much matter.
(00:36):
I'd met kid within the walls of Gold and Supermac's
prison before his release from jail.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
One of Australia's oldest criminals, eighty one year old Robert
Bertie Kidd, says he'll fight a plan to deport him
back to his native United Kingdom when he's released from
prison next month.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
He was a much reduced figure. Jail had essentially broken him.
In fact, it was hard to imagine that this little
old man had once been one of Australia's most ruthless crooks,
developed a reputation as a master safecutter, armed robber, burglar
and standover man.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
He was a well rounded, violent criminal who'd take any
opportunity without concern for the welfare of the community of
New South Wales.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
He was serving a long stretch for a series of
vicious home invasions, but his run had finished in Queensland
in nineteen ninety seven when he was arrested during a
robbery of a chemical factory in Brisbane. He was already
sixty two at the time, an age when most crooks
are leaving this to younger villains, but here he was
shooting that with police before wisely surrendering. Police called Kid
(01:42):
one of the country's most dangerous old school villains. He
told me he'd gotten ay with many things in his
criminal career, and now he's dead. The stories will be told.
I was contacted by one of the police officers who
put Kid away in nineteen ninety seven, and he's agreed
to fill in the gaps of Kid's CV, including several
(02:03):
unsolved murders and disappearances. It's my pleasure to welcome forming yourself.
I was Detective Philip Short to the Real Crime Studio,
did I phil there?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
You?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Adam, tell me how did Bert Kidd rank amongst the
villains you dealt with over your long career.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
He was certainly probably the most vicious and violent criminal,
for sure, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
And how did you first come to be involved in
taking him down.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I was at the organized crime branch and Kid came
to the attention of police when we had information that
he was going to import some automatic machine pistols into Australia.
The job wasn't handed to me, it was handed to
another team and they had a strategy of introducing an
undercover officer into kids orbit, trying to get me into
(02:50):
his criminal mendew and trying to get some more information
on this importation. And how I came to be involved
is that in mid nine to ninety seven a police
force was being reorganized under a new commissioner. An organized
ryan was being shut down and everyone was being transferred away.
So I was still there and the job was just
(03:11):
handed to me to be the case officer of it.
So I inherited the job about mid nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Okay, and what was your strategy on approaching Kid Well.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
The strategy was to continue with the undercover officer being
introduced to Kim's orbit and to get that done, he
was introduced to a fellow by name a Gary Page.
Our Page is an old school crook who had done
time for manslaughter and he was a close associate of Kid.
So our undercover officer had a number of meetings with
Page over the months. They were productive and that we
(03:45):
bought some one out slots of heroin off Page and
they were of a fairly high purity, so there probably
straight from the importer. And we also purchased two Smith
and Wesson revolvers. Now those guns had the serial numbers
filed off them, but through forensic we were able to
find out what those numbers will there, and it turns
(04:05):
out they were stolen during an armor guard robbery some
years earlier. So we had had some success, but the
undercover officer never got to make Kid.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Because Bertie was very, very cautious about undercovers. He dealt
with police a lot. I mean, in his early days
in Victoria, he actually had police on his payroll who
would tell him where to find the juicy safe that
he'd liked to break into. So he understood police procedures,
he understood the use of undercovers. So you had to
approach him with a high level of skill and caution,
(04:37):
and we did.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
We didn't surveil him with physical surveillance because he was
under counter surveillance all the time. He wasn't lazy, he
wasn't a lazy crook. He was always on and he
wouldn't talk over the phone, or if he met with
another crook, he'd meet in the park or go to
a park. So it was very hard to get anything
on him.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And so you have a stroke of luck in that
your team gets transferred to the NCAA, the National Crime Authority,
which was always a good thing back in the day
because they had all the resources, plenty of money, plenty
of guns, plenty of technology. What was the reason the
NCAA got involved.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Well, initially, organized crime was shut down and we were
transferred to another investigative unit called the Special Investigation Unit,
and we continued on there with our investigation. And we
were only there for about two or three weeks and
we got an overnight transferred to the NCAA myself from
the whole team, and that was fortuitous, and that we
(05:37):
were transferred to a small office that was run by
an officer who was a detective chief and inspect there
at the time called Bob Ingst. He's pretty well known
amongst police circles, very famous, very competent detective and he
had a couple of other COVID investigations running so we
just fitted into that office and we continued as we
(05:59):
were Because prior to moving to the National Crime Authority,
I considered that the job was burned because our undercover
officer went a bit off script. He and Page went
to the city to meet with a well known heroine importer.
He was faced to go there and meet, get what
information he could, and then return, get in his own
(06:19):
car and leave. Unfortunately, came out with Page. Two other
males got in a different car and left. Our physical
surveilance wasn't set up to take another car away, so
we lost him for a short time. So we had
to activate the sirens and the surilans cars and try
and locating the people in the car with their undercover officer.
(06:40):
They heard the approaching sirens stop the car, got out
and walked away, so I think their antennas are up
that there was something on after that. I think it
was too dangerous to send the undercover back.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
In right because Page seemed to twig that there might
be a listing device on his phone, and I presume
was telling his mates, including Kid.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Well. I don't think Page twigged. I think Kid told
him because we were only the National Crime Authority for
a number of days when Page was on his phone
telling people that he thought there was a bug in
his phone. So he left the unit and returned a
short time later, and he went as straight where a
listing device was hidden. Now, you wouldn't have known where
(07:24):
it was. You wouldn't have found it unless you were
told where it was. So I'm assuming that kid had
some intel where the listing device was.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Things just go from bad to worse because you arrest
Page on some drug and firearms offenses and the following
day your unit gets raided and staff detained.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Why was that, well, we were rated at the National
Crime Authority. The Special Investigation Unit was raided unberknownst to us.
There was a Police Integrity Commission investigation and internal affairs
investigation into a certain staff member there that subsequently left
to a pic hearing, and there was only one officer
(08:03):
that was found to be corrupted out of the whole group.
It really tainted the whole group.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So this really throws U spanner in the works. You've
now got to go to a new strategy. In October
nineteen ninety seven, you get a new informant who was
that well.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
We received information at that time. Already at that time
we'd identify whose kids likely team were to commit crying
and that was of course Page, but he was under
arrest and bar refused. And there was a fellow called
Mark Middleton, an old school crook called Eric murray In Smith,
who was a prison officer in Brisbane, which was surprising now.
(08:41):
How Smith got into their criminal group was Middleton was
in a Brisbane prison where Smith was working and they
got to be friends. And when Middleton got out of prison,
they continue to be friends and Smith joined their criminal group.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
He proved to be the weak link which arguably brought
kid down. Your informant, you still can't name him because
you never know, and this life, it can be dangerous
for informants, even their children if the informant is dead.
But this informant was giving you a lot of historical information,
including probably a couple of murders that kid had committed
(09:22):
back in the nineteen seventies. Tell us more about that.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, when I say informant, this was just someone that
came forward and gave us information. So he wasn't really
working that much with us, but he gave us some
good information. And one of the bits that we got
was that Kid had murdered two witnesses in the seventies,
and we were told that the two were involved in
a safe job in Victoria with Kid and when Bus said,
(09:45):
they had agreed to inform mon him try and help
themselves with any sentencing. And we're also told that one
of them worked at the business they broke into.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It was Spindler and Pollock. That's really the business. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Now we're also told that Kid disposed of their bodies
in a vertical hole. And he told us that Kid
owned a Jesus had a post driller on a truck
and they did work all over Victoria and that's what
he used to dig a hole and Barry's victim. So
due to the witnesses disappearing, he walked on that particular
matter and it didn't proceed.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, those two individuals were Leo Albert Martel and Brian
Lawrence Keating. Bubba Martell as he was known, was quite
a close associate of Kid for quite a while. And
there's been a couple of books written on Kid. And
in the book, he talks about this whole incident and
he goes into the police station and he sees Bubba
(10:40):
Martel talking to the police, and of course that sort
of coded information there, because Kid used to say that
you never talked to police unless you got your lawyer
with you. So the insinuation was that Buba was giving
information freely, which was not a good sign for Buba's health.
(11:01):
So as they're getting closer to the proceedings there, they
both disappear. Martel and Keating, that's.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Right, and the fellow we were looking at. He was
thirty five at the time of the offense and he'd
be ninety two now and Keating was twenty five at
the time of the offense and he'd be eighty two now.
So they've been missing for fifty four years.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And yet when I look on the Victoria Police Missing
Persons website, they're not even mentioned.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, we made it after Kid was arrested. We made
inquiries ourselves. That's what we found. There wasn't a stroke
of a pen in relation than being missing. And it
was unusual in that Martella had been married twice and
I understand that he's de facto second wife died about
a year before his disappearance, but he had so he
(11:50):
was a single father to I think it was five children.
I could be wrong there, but it was quite a
few and he just disappeared. And we did speak to
one of his siblings and they said, yeah, he wouldn't
have done that until we hadn't heard heard from him
since seventy one to ninety seven. They hadn't heard from him.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
That's unfortunate for the family because I'm sorry, if it
was me, i'd expect this case to still be open,
that there might be information that could be lady even
today to bring some sort of closure to his children,
both of their children's.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, it's fairly old now fifty four years. It's certainly suspicious,
and I don't think they've just gone walk about. In fact, Keating.
I spoke to one of the detectives from Malvin who
was in charge of the case at the time, and
he told me that Keating had made a call to
his barrasses saying he's on his way to court the
(12:44):
day of the court hearing, and he just disappeared, never
turned up, So that narrows down his disappearance still a
couple of hours.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Were you surprised that the Vics didn't want to take
this up and maybe even go and speak to the
dirtie kid.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Well, I don't know. Maybe this' noted under. I don't
know what. I made a statement in nine and he
ate about our information to Victoria Police and maybe the
follow it up and they found him. I just don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
I don't think they had been found as far as
I know. I was checking with my contacts and it's
just sort of a gap. It's a gap in history
the whereabouts of Martel and Keating. The informant also gave
you information about another possible murder that Bertie was involved
with or potentially involved with.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Well, this was a funny one in that there wasn't
much infa really. He said a kid murdered a bloke
who was a foreign man. He murdered him because he
beat a former girlfriend of kids, and the possible location
was Double Bay where they did the murder. And that
was about it. So there wasn't much to go on.
But I read Kid's second book, The Notorious Kid, and
(13:49):
he was in here, as he comments in a chapter
titled Operation Jerry, where he states that Jerry had a
thick guttural check accent and that he beat and stole
from Margo, a former girlfriend of kids, and Kids states
that he and friends visited Jerry told him to go
to a safe house where he would be given a
plane ticket the following day, and he was at leave
(14:10):
Australia and not return. I'd be skeptical of that outcome.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, he might not have made it to the airport unfortunately.
And there's also suspicion that Bertie might have had a
role in the death of his girlfriend a bit later
on Christine Christiotti, who was quite wealthy and a beautiful woman.
They had a child together. She also chose to give
evidence against Bertie Kid and nothing good came of it
(14:36):
for her.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Well, I don't think bert had anything to do with
her death. She was a bit of a sad case.
She was an own heroin addict in Australia and she
inherited a sizeable sum of money and went to live
in Balin. She returned to Australia in nineteen ninety eight
when Kid was in jail and was likely to do
a long stint. She was interviewed by police and did
(14:59):
not divulge anything, whether it was from fear of Kid
or whatever. Prior to her returning to Balley, she attended
her accountant where she gave instructions about her estate that
Kid was not to have anything to do with her
estate and everything was to go to her son, who
she shared with Kid. So they were her last spoken
(15:21):
words to her accountant. She returned to Balley and overdosed
on heroin shortly after returning. So I don't think Bert
was enrolled in that murder.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
And you don't think she was giving evidence against.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Him at that stage. No. It may have changed once
a sentence was handed down, but at that stage no, she.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Was clearly terrified of him, and she was an experienced
heroin addict. It's unusual that an experienced addict would overdose
like that. There was suspicion about this, There's certainly suspicion,
but not enough to go forward with. It happened in
another jurisdiction. You didn't get forensics. It was just another
unfortunate drug death. Maybe if it occurred in Australia where
(16:04):
forensics could have done a bit more.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Who knows.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Anyway, rolling back to the main game, you're now looking
at Kid and as he called it, a project was emerging.
What was that project that you were starting to get
a sense of as you worked on him.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
The project that we were working on in just prior
to his arrests in late November early December ninety ninety seven,
electronic and physical silence was increased as we believe the
Kidney's crew were going to do another home invasion and
this time in Castle Cove in Sydney. So we had
kid Middleton and Murray was surveiled on a number of
(16:41):
occasions going to an address in Castle Cove. The last
of our observations are only four days before they did
their job in Queensland. Now they went through a number
of occasions. They make observations that get out of their car,
walk around and that fitted him with information received that
when kid did things like home invasions, he'd do dry
(17:02):
runs so that if he was and the police were
watching him, but move in. So our strategy was we'd
observe them, but if they tooled up to do a job,
we had to stay protection group on stand by a
short distance a way to move in. We did dawn
off that particular street and we determined the victim was
most likely the owner of a Chinese restaurant, again looking
(17:26):
for cash.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
But not a criminal, just a business person going about
their commerce.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
No, he's targets were wealthy people.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Because he liked to say that he only went after
bullies and crooks. Was that true when you could look
at this series of home invasions?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
No, no, no, we're already looking at him for two
home invasions. He did want of Boney Bay in Sydney
South where he had information again that the victim had
cash on the premises. So the three offenders Middleton, Kid
and Smith into the premises and bailed up a husband
and his wife. Now the mail was down in a
(18:06):
kid beating with a small sledgehammer, broke numerous bones and
colluding a fractioned skull. But the victim couldn't tell him
that the cash was because he wasn't leaning on the premises.
So in the end, kid put the shotgun to his
head and pulled the trigger. It didn't go off. So
whether that was a bluff or old amminition, who knows.
As particularly vicious home invasion, and the male victim recovered,
(18:31):
but his wife was in remission from cancer and she
actually died before the trial. The three of them were
convicted for that bet offense, and.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
They came a lot later. But meanwhile, you're now looking
at him with some urgency because he's red hot he's
an old man, but he's red hot now and you
see that he may have a target in Brisbane, a
factory up there. How did that come to light?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Well, that came to light because we picked up through
electronic surveillance between Smith and his wife. They were talking
in code, but it wasn't much of a code, so
we were able to determine that they're going to rob
a chemical factory in the Brisbane suburb of rock Lee.
It was going to occur most likely on a Friday,
(19:15):
the troth of December, around the close of business. So
due to that information, we up the surveillance on Smith
in Brisbane and Middleton in Sydney, and we put a
loose watching kid, but we didn't want to do anything
too much.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Well why was that because he was pretty he was
on the ball.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah, yeah, he practiced counter surveillance all the time, so
that kicked off the surveillance operation for that And on
the tenth of December Middleton collected another man called Brett
Newcomb and they traveled by a car to Brisbane and
the New South Wales and NCAA surveillance teams they had
(19:53):
eyes on them the whole time. In Brisbane, Smith was
observed to go and buy a white Ford panel van.
He bought it under a different name, and his wife
Ronica drave him to pick up car.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
And this is now Smith, the former prison officer, who's
the weak Lincoln, the whole thing. I mean, it almost
seems like to me that Bertie's almost passed it. He's
compromised his methods, he's working with people he shouldn't and
gave you guys an absolute in and now you're following
all the steps going up to the robbery.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
One hundred percent, leaving an absolute breadcrumb trail. I thought
the same thing. Kids working with the prison officer who
is always going to roll if they get caught, And
if I can put it this way, they're not proper criminals.
They did things of proper criminals wouldn't do so at
that stage, we're the end of the eleventh of December
in Smith, Middleton and Yarcom. We had eyes on them
(20:46):
all the time. They are observed to buy go to
hardware shops and buy plastic buckets, gloves, plastic bags. They
went to Railway Crescent, Rockley and they were making observations
of where the chemical factory was located, so that was
a good indicator that that was the place.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Following day, I believe Kid flies to Brisbane and meets
the other three at the Breakfast Creek Hotel. Good steaks there,
but they went there for the food, that's right.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I thank you every visiting policemen from New South Wales
been to the Breakfast Creek Hotel anyway, they observed to
meet there. And what was interesting is one of the
surveillance guys from Brisbane, who didn't know what Kid looked like,
went into the hotel and observed the meeting and he
said to three of them met up with an old
guy who was the meanest old guy I've ever seen
in my life. So Kid was laying down the wall.
(21:37):
Yeah he's pumpkin on. He looked a big mean So.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
How many people were involve? This is a big deal
because Bertie's a big ticket item now, string of home
invasions a pedigree as long as your arm. There was
not going to be any mistakes here. There was a
big team involved well from.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
The surveillance teams. For instance, the National Crime AUTH already
had twelve surveillance operatives TRIEL vehicles. We had the New
South Wales and Queensland silence squads on it all at
the same time, so there was plenty of roll over
with the vehicles and they had eyes on the whole
crew the whole time.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
What was the target in this factory? I believe it
was pseudo effigent. Bertie had always, I guess, talked big
about hating drugs and so forth, but instead of refigen
was one of those key ingredients in making amphetamines and
ecstasy and so forth. That's right, And their info was
that they could get a forty four gallon drummer this
stuff which were worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
But the whole prelude to this job. You're right in
that kids losing it to a fair Debreathe he didn't
do a dry run. He's trusting people he shouldn't trust,
and they're not picking up that they're being followed. So
it was a fitting ding, I think.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
But there was still a dramatic moment to come because
kid leads the raid on the factory.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
What happened what happened there is probably not up to
me to say, because we briefed the Queensland Police all
the time on everything we had, and we sent a
couple of officers up to Lias because at that stage
Kid didn't leave to go up to Coeensleyan till the
troth at the sent of the day of the robbery,
but they are observed to drive the white Penaline from
(23:13):
two Rock Lee. They parked outside of the chemical factory.
They don the masks and heat of the premises. With
Kid having a three five seven magnum Smith and Wisdom
revolver which was owned by Smith, he was licensed to
have the gun.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Oh my god, bad move.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Well, yeah, he's as guilty as the person who pulls
the trigger. So he's an idiot.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Well, I mean the usual m I would have been
defined a stolen weapon with no serial numbers, no connection
to anybody. So this was again an evidentiary trail that
would sink them all. Although of course he was captured.
But I mean there was other bungles as well, because
when they get in there, they discover the pseudo's not
even there. Their target was not even available.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
That's right. It's not like a bird kid job planned
at all. It was like, you know, this is your
first or second robbery. To be honest, we were lucky.
He'd really stuffed it up, you know. It paid off
for us. We were lucky and he was unlucky due
to his own incompetence. So Sir of the Coinsline Special
Emergency responds to him, I think they're the guys dressed
(24:21):
in black with the big weapons, and they weren't on
the scene. And at the time the offenders entered the factory,
but all the surveillance teams were so they ended a
factory in demand at the shootout, which they couldn't get.
So they got some other prohibited drugs that they got
from the factory, which probably weren't worth a lot. And
inside the factory, which proved what a old school crook
(24:44):
kid was, he found a second rear entrance. Now, at
the conclusion of the robbery, kids sent the other three
offenders out to their vehicle and he waited inside. At
that stage, suit were on the scene in a bolo
that vehicle in and the other three gave up without
a fight.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
But Kid's not finished yet. He goes out through that
back door and he sees a surveillance operative in the
vehicle a short distance away. He doesn't give up.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
We've got on this. Surnalians that he was actually approaching
the rear insurance slowly and Kid didn't run away from it.
He ran to it and started to shoot at the vehicle.
So the surveillance officer got out of his car and
returned fire. They think he fired four shots, and Kid
and the officer it's shane shots with bullets going through
the roof the door in the rear window, and eventually
(25:31):
one bullet ricocheted off the roof and struck the officer
in the wrist. He fell to the ground and Kid
took off trying to escape through a construction area.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And they're still in hot pursuit of the Sert officers
and they're firing warning shots. I mean, at this point,
sense prevails because it's pretty likely here that unless kid
gives up, he's going to be full of holes. The
Sert officers, the soldier cops, they're not going to let
him go, and they're ready for the fight. And he's
also been firing at Queensland Police officers already, so I
guess all bets are off they can shoot this offender. Yeah,
(26:06):
and I think they're entitled a shooting there and then,
to be honest, But anyway, they fired into the ground.
You know, he went to the dirt straight away. He
just laid on his stomach, Henes outstretched right. That was
the end of a I'm not going to call it
a magnificent run, but certainly a long run. And he
gets charged with m robbery, violence and company attempted murder
shooting to avoid apprehension. How did you feel when you
(26:29):
were when you heard all about this.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
It was a bit of a relief. I mean, we're
all disappointed that it ended up someone being wounded from outside.
I mean that shouldn't have happened, but you know, to
put an end of this bike was pretty broading for
the whole team. I mean it was a big team
that worked on him and everyone put in, not just me.
It was a whole team that ended up getting this blake.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
It did effectively end his run because he served a
stretch up in Queensland and then he was extraduted down
to New South Wales to face the home invasion charges.
So it really led to the end of his run.
So I guess you could, in one sense be called
his nemesis Philip Short.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I wouldn't say that's me. I think there was a
whole team. There was Bobbings who was leading the team,
and there was the surveillance guys, all the analysts. I
think the whole team put in an equal amount of effort.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
That's right and a good result. As you say, it
was unfortunate that one of your side got wounded. But
kid was in custody and that was the end of him.
But I guess a lot of people say that Berdie
Kidd got off pretty lightly in there because he was
involved in let's say four murders. There was a couple
more back in nineteen ninety two or nineteen ninety one,
(27:39):
the murders of Roy Thurger and Dessie Lewis. Tell us
a bit about those and why he was suspected of
those murders.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yeah, I suspect the kid's good for both of them.
We did receive some information about the Thurgar murder, and
that was Thurgo owned a laundromat and Allison Street, Breenwick,
and he commonly went there of an evening. I think
his wife may have worked there and Thurgar vegle was
parked out the front. Now it had a dicky ignition
(28:08):
switch and that you had to jiggle the key to
get it to work, and as he was doing that,
kid came across the road tapped on the window, Thurgo
looked up and his shot him. I think he died
the next day or the day after. What was interesting
is after the murder, Kid went straight to the Quarry Hotel,
which is situated near the Cydney Police Center and now's
(28:29):
a common drinking spot for police, especially detectives. So he
started to a being near a group of detectives and
one of the guys was from the Pole Up squad
and of course he recognized him, but it was not
known by anse police. But this guy recognized him, so
he spoke to him and put in an information report.
So it was pretty clever because if kid was ever
(28:51):
tapped on the shoulder for it, I think it sounds
would sound convincing to a jury that hang on, he
was drinking with police twenty twenty five minutes afterwards.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, so had opportunity, I guess, but had an alibi.
But he also had a motive. The murder of Michael
Sayers back in nineteen eighty five. Sayers was an associative
kid that he was part of his team, part of
his social circle, and Roy Thurger had been boasting around
Sydney that he killed Michael Sayers, who was a pretty
willing crook in his own right. By the way, do
(29:23):
you think that was the motive.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, I think that's the motive. Big Sayers was a
good friend of the kids at the end of his life.
I think Big says, oh, the wrong people a fair
bit of money. Fergo was on that side of the
criminal element, and so Sayers wasn't paying back the money.
So Hergar and a number of I think there were
two others killed Sayers.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
That's right, And the paymaster in that case was probably
heroin dealer Barry mccannon, I understand.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
I don't know if it was mckainn or one another,
I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Or Danny Chubb. There's a whole crew you could have ended.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I think Chubb would be a good one to probably
look at the.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Right and they all met grizzly ends didn't in this
period pick your dead villain in this case. And then
Dassi Lewis. Why was Daisy Lewis killed?
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Well, it could be just pettiness. I mean noteds are varied.
Kid has one in his book about that. Kid and
Lewis and Jockey Smith were on opposite sides. Lewis on
one side with Jockie Smith and Kid on the other
There was also that Kid had an altercation with or
an argument with Lewis at the Lord Nelson Hotel sometime
(30:37):
earlier and Lewis asked him to step it outside. Now,
Lewis was a former boxer and I think he would
have punish Kid, so Kid to kind of fired him,
and I think he'd lost a bit of faith. That
could be one motive. But Kid was certainly involved because
after his arrest we did a number of search warrants
in Sydney, one at a black Colleric Murray's place, and
(31:00):
we recovered amount of equipment curling paler class and shotgun
ammunition and two shotguns. And one of those shotguns was
a forensic match for the murder weapon of Des Lewis.
So he certainly was involved. And I think he probably
pulled the trigger.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
So was there never enough to charge him over those murders?
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Do you think? No? He had a pretty good alibi,
and his alibi was Christine Christiotti. They were allegedly at
a function in Double Bay and I think they were
there and others a verified Kid was present. My theory
is that Kid left the function was driven a short
distance from Double Bay to Bondi Junction. He waited him
(31:43):
for Lewis and then ambushed him when he returned home,
and then Kid just returned to the function.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
And whatever evidence Christine Christiotti could have given went to
her grave with her as she died of a heroin overdose. Simbali,
as we said earlier, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
That's a shame. It's not not much else to go
on in that particular murder.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, And of course you retire not long after this,
don't you.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah. I retire and medically retired in two thousand and
one with some unique injuries. So that was the end
of my involvement. I left organized crime in ninety eight
and a few of the other police took over the
home invasions and finished off the brief. And they did
a great job in putting the home invasions and another
(32:29):
robbery on the kid.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
And you were called as a witness in those cases,
weren't you.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Well, I was called as a witness and went in.
But Kid and the others changed their police to guilty.
It was a pretty solid brief, so I think to
avoid extra time and give them some help of getting out,
they pleaded guilty to all matters.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
And this was your chance to at least look at
kid in the face, wasn't it.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yes, I wanted to see how he took it before
hour involved, But I think he'd only done about six
years prison, so it hadn't done a lot of serious jail,
and I knew he was going to get a fairly
good leg for these offenses. So when the judge eventually
handed down what was in total a twenty six year
top sentence and twenty one on the bottom, he showed
(33:17):
no emotion. It could have been your issue with a
parking ticket. You can leave nothing at all, no emotion.
He just copped it.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Because those old style crooks they used to take jail
as occupational hazard. But you had to do some jail
from time to time. But this was a long lagging
and it was really the end of his criminal career.
So you could take that as an achievement in your career,
I suppose.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah. I think for all of us it was a
great achievement to see him go away for a long
time because he was going to continue to commit a
serious crime. He wasn't going to.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Stop, and as you say, the mistakes in the Brisbane
job probably should have told him that it was time
to give it up. Before this, he.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Would have been embarrassed by I didn't give evidence at
the committal hearing in Brisbane for thosees, and my evidence
was in relation to the voice identification of the people
on telephones. And the look on his face was I
swear if he had those people in adopt ex thing,
he would have tried to kill them. They're really broad
him undone.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Well, so thanks for sharing those memories there, Phil, I
think it's an amazing thing. I'd like to think there's
some way that the Keating and Martell families could finally
get some sort of closure. Are going to be talking
to the Victoria police down here and see if they've
got any interest in following up these cases and maybe
even dusting off your old information, even if your informants
still out there. I'm not quite sure if he would be,
but it'd be nice to see these things because I'm
(34:41):
sure over your career it's one thing to be a
crook involved in the hurly burly of offending, but the
families do suffer, and I'm sure that his children, both
those families, you know, the kids of both those men
suffered as a result of the unexplained disappearance of their fathers.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, no doubt about it. You know they're involved in
crime themselves, but just the same they deserve to, you know,
if their disappearance investigated, Whether it comes to anything or not,
it deserves to be investigate.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
That's Philip Short, retired in South Wales detective on bringing
down Bertram Douglas kid. Now there is another volume coming
out of his trilogy. I think it's going to be
one book and the same author, Simon Griffin, is putting
together some much I'm going to afford some of this
stuff to Simon and it may up in the story.
But do you wonder this final version was supposed to
(35:37):
be kept until after Vert's death, and I wonder how
much he's going to reveal in this final volume. Will
he talk about the deaths of Thurger, of Lewis, of Martel,
of Keating? Does he have a conscience? Finally, that's a
really good question. If you have any stories for me,
please get in touch Adam Sander writer at gmail dot com.
(35:59):
If you've got some information you want to tell the police,
call crime Stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero.
This is Bean Adam shann for real crime. Thank you
for listening.
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