August 25, 2025 • 28 mins
On this episode of the Seeing Eye Dogs Show, Harriet is joined by Seeing Eye Dog handler Cassandra Chiu and senior instructor Justin Marshall for part 2 of our interview about the life of the team, the unique and challenging environment for a SED team, access in Singapore and about how an instructor works with a SED team through client training and beyond. Part one is available on https://omny.fm/shows/seeing-eye-dogs-show or your preferred podcast platform.
We also have a repeat of an interview with puppy development trainer Abi Howes talking about grooming your dog and why it's so important to look after their coat. The full interview is available here: https://omny.fm/shows/seeing-eye-dogs-show/grooming-tips-for-your-dog-youth-program and other dog care and husbandry tips are available on our Omny FM.
If you'd like to find out more about Seeing Eye Dogs head to our website: https://sed.visionaustralia.org/
If you're blind or have low vision and are interested in becoming a handler or applying for a Seeing Eye Dog, please email us at info@sed.org.au or call on 1800 037 773 to discuss dog guide mobility, eligibility or assessment.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:19):
On Vision Australia Radio. You're listening to the Seeing Eye
Dogs radio show with me, your host, Harriet Moffatt. Today
I have part two of my interview with Seeing Eye Dogs,
handler and Executive Director of Canine Assistant Singapore, Cassandra Choo,
and Seeing Eye Dogs Senior instructor Justin Marshall talking about
Cassandra's life with seeing eye dog advocacy and access in
(00:42):
Singapore and the work of Canine Assistant Singapore for the
part one of that interview. Head to our Omni FM
page or your preferred podcast platform. Then I have a
repeat of an interview with puppy development trainer Abby Howes,
talking about how to keep your dog nicely groomed and
(01:03):
why it's important to do so. Now, without further ado,
here's part two of my interview with Cassandra and Justin.
S2 (01:18):
Kind of next plans for you guys as a team,
or even if there's anything that you want to share
about the updates on Canine Assistant since we last spoke.
S3 (01:27):
Not much of it. Well, there's been an update. We
have just received our what we call an Institute of
Public Character Recognition as a charity here. So what that
means is donors have a two and a half times, um,
tax rebate when they make a donation to us. And
I believe that Vision Australia is a similar type charity
(01:47):
in Australia as well. And it basically just means that
we're recognized as trustworthy. And and of course, there are
lots of hoops to jump through to get there. We're
still waiting on full legislative change in Singapore to permit
other types of assistance dogs beyond seeing-eye dogs. So like
hearing dogs for the deaf and hard of hearing, or
mobility dogs for people with physical disabilities. And once that happens,
(02:09):
we're excited to start looking at placing these dogs.
S2 (02:14):
Wow. It's all very exciting, I guess. Like you said,
it's kind of a bit of a long process.
S3 (02:19):
It is.
S2 (02:20):
But chipping away.
S3 (02:22):
Chipping away bit at a time.
S4 (02:25):
I have to say, I've, um. Observed Sienna and Cassandra's
team completing a demo with her, and I'd have to
say Cassandra's got a wonderful team under her, and people
who have been able to get the most out of Sienna,
who absolutely loves doing the task. And while she's an ambassador,
(02:50):
you know, and doing it, it's still an insight into
the good work that K9 will be able to do
and provide to the Singapore community.
S3 (03:00):
Absolutely.
S2 (03:01):
I guess it makes it very kind of tangible seeing
the dog. Do you know an actual task themselves rather
than just saying, oh, the dogs help people, we promise.
S5 (03:11):
Yeah. And it's very.
S3 (03:12):
Different as well, because many people think about assistance dogs
as seeing eye dogs helping a blind person. But they
cannot imagine that a dog can be trained to open
a drawer, retrieve a medical kit, and go place that
kit in his handler's it its handler's hands, or, you know,
alert its handler to a ringing doorbell or something else.
(03:35):
And that's just so, so many things that a dog
can do. And it's amazing what you can teach them.
S4 (03:40):
And I have to say, too, Cassandra has been a
long term advocate for fighting for people with vision impairment.
Because one thing I found and maybe interesting to Australian
community is that while it's legal to have a guide,
it's not reinforced. So as I've often worked and I
(04:06):
was ready to when I was following Cassandra, people would
turn around and say, that dog shouldn't be in here,
or why is that dog here? And so with the
good work that Cassandra's doing with canine, she's also been
doing it along the way with her dog guides. And
that for me, Cassandra, that was. I mean, you've been
living that sort of culture for a long time, but
(04:27):
for me to hear people pretty much abuse you at times,
it was pretty hard.
S5 (04:34):
Well, I.
S3 (04:34):
Abused them back, too.
S5 (04:38):
But very hostile.
S2 (04:39):
Especially when you can, you know, see the work that
Mandy is doing and how much she is doing.
S5 (04:46):
And sometimes just ignorance. It is just.
S3 (04:48):
Ignorance.
S5 (04:49):
And I think.
S3 (04:50):
Justin was was there once when we had an incident
at the train station with my team and there was
this lady shouting out that, oh, the dog can't go
in the train. So I've got gotten through the turnstiles
and I was walking down the stairs and this lady
was just shouting that, you know, dogs are not allowed.
And one of my team members told her that lady
lady's blind and it's a seeing eye dog, and it
helps her and it's allowed. And she went on and
(05:11):
on and on, trying to catch my attention by raising
her voice. So I just turned around and said, lady,
is there something wrong with your hearing?
S2 (05:21):
And you just kind of think, hopefully, as the education
goes on, that you'll have fewer and fewer of those interactions.
S3 (05:29):
And and it is it is it is a lot
less from, from what it used to be 15 years
ago in 2011, when I first came back with my
first dog, things were very, very different. The bus wouldn't
even open the door. Um, I got literally manhandled by
security guards and brought out of a building different, really,
really negative stuff. Now you just have ignorant quote unquote
(05:52):
Karens saying stupid shit, which is fine. And, you know,
you just let it go.
S2 (05:58):
I mean, I guess that's kind of unfortunately part of
being a dog guide handler, but especially in a country
where it's less accepted even than here.
S3 (06:05):
And there's so few of us like in in all
of in all of Singapore right now, there's only ten
dog guides, including Mandy. Yeah. Can you imagine that versus
we have the same population versus I think in Melbourne
you probably have something like all in with the both schools.
Maybe 300, 400 is my guess. Oh.
S4 (06:26):
Even more.
S3 (06:27):
More. Wow. Because Cedar alone has like, what, 200 plus?
S4 (06:33):
We have quite a few out there around because of
course we're doing Australia. So. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's amazing,
you know, with with the people over here, you know,
one of the big things they have problems with is
Ubers and and taxis. And you know, we have the
occasional supermarket and, and shopping centres. But you're, you don't
(06:59):
have the you've got to fight or you've got to
try to work out which restaurant you can go to
because it is not a given. And I know we
were we were seated outside at one of the restaurants.
And for me, it was a bit of a shock
of oh, but we're now being pushed outside to sit
on a table outside. But at least though for you
(07:23):
it was that we could still go to that, that
actual cafe or restaurant. Yeah. Um, it is a real
mind shift from, for me, culturally wise, to going over
there and, and seeing our client having to have these
fights every single day. But as we said, Cassandra, you've
(07:48):
been a strong advocate for years. And I would say,
you know, you're the trailblazer in in starting that movement.
And now at least, you know, you've got your school
that can now support that and others.
S3 (08:06):
Yes. And it's I mean, I think your famous phrase,
Justin sums it up when it comes to the fights, right?
With access issues and it's the same like walking a
dog when something goes wrong. You breathe, you burp, and
then you're fought and it's over.
S4 (08:22):
Don't give my secrets away. Now I'll be called on
I've called up to air.
S2 (08:31):
I'm relieved for your sakes that you can already kind
of start to, I guess, recognize the impact of the advocacy.
That's quite powerful, I think.
S3 (08:40):
Yes, it has definitely changed in 15 years. And it's
not perfect, but I don't think there's anywhere in the
world that's perfect. Even in the US on the Facebook
Dog Guide group over there, and you see lots of
nasty stuff happening as well. It's all over the world.
S2 (08:56):
I mean, then you get more fake assistance dogs too,
when that in itself is a whole different kettle of fish. SH.
S3 (09:01):
Correct.
S4 (09:02):
There's so many like that. And and that actually has
been quite devastating at times because working with a CNI
dog team, where they were working for big W and
a person came around on a wheelchair with an assistance
dog in inverted commas, and it literally jumped out and
(09:23):
and went for the CNI dog. And we've been working
with CNI dog, but it has had trouble as soon
as it gets near that shopping center. Now, it's had
such an impact on our, our dog.
S2 (09:35):
That's really tough.
S4 (09:37):
Mhm. So when hopefully when the you know legal and
and professional and well trained assistance dogs. So like I've
come across a lot of the hearing dogs and and
others assistance dogs from assistance Dogs Australia and there's been
no issue at all.
S3 (09:59):
They're well trained. You know they are essentially all the same.
They just have a different type of disability through a
different task that they do.
S4 (10:06):
Yeah. And they're all the legitimate ones. Unfortunately the the.
S3 (10:12):
Ones.
S4 (10:13):
Yeah. That make it hard.
S2 (10:15):
It's the ones that where they've just put a pet
dog in a jacket and assumed that it's fine. Which
is not great.
S4 (10:22):
That's it. Yeah. I'd have to say, you know, in
Cassandra's case, with. With the wonderful Mandy. It's okay. I
don't know how we. I've said to, uh, Nicola, our
head vet and and breeding manager. You know, we need
several more. Mandy's. And it's. We need to clone her around.
(10:47):
But it is a it's a credit of the breeding
and the time and the effort that goes into our dogs. Yeah.
Right from the point of conception through to puppy caring
and into our CNI dog training program and out with
our clients. It's what we have done and how we
have trained Mandy. I've seen her do things that we
(11:10):
haven't taught her, you know, and and things that Cassandra
has enhanced with her knowledge and her experiences. It's really
the connection which has happened so quickly. There is one
heart and one soul and one mind, and you really
can get to see telepathy happening within the two. I
(11:32):
think the cheekiness is her cheekiness is an absolute true
reflection of you, Cassandra. Um.
S3 (11:40):
And don't don't think that Mandy's all perfect and golden.
She was really cheeky last week. I had a container
of rice cooling before I put it in a fridge
next to the sink, and I was cleaning the house
and mopping the floor. When I came back, the container
was still there and there were a couple of grains
of rice on the counter, but the container was empty.
S4 (12:02):
She's a dog. First, though.
S3 (12:06):
It's not the first time and probably not going to
be the last. My fault for leaving it out there?
S4 (12:11):
No, and I think that's it. Out of. Out of.
It's like all of us, you know, when we go
to work, we put our professional hat on. And when
we come home, we hop into our tracky dacks and relax.
And she she gets home and takes off her, takes
off her frock, and she's a normal dog.
S2 (12:30):
And personally, personally, when I have tempting snacks on the
side that are open, I definitely tend to eat more
than I should.
S3 (12:39):
Especially when no one's watching.
S2 (12:41):
Exactly. No one's watching. I can eat this whole thing.
It's fine.
S4 (12:44):
Yep.
S3 (12:45):
But the best part is, I've got so many dogs
over the years, and this is obviously not the first time.
Like something like this has happened, but usually they would
topple the container to get to the food. But Mandy
has never done it. The container is perfectly there. Never toppled.
S2 (13:01):
That's kind of where she's so smart. She's so smart
that she says, oh, she won't even notice because I
don't even notice. She'll just think she didn't put any
rice in there.
S3 (13:09):
Yeah, it just evaporated. The rice evaporated. I'm just going
to gaslight her.
S2 (13:16):
Yeah. Oh, dear. That. It's borderline worrying.
S4 (13:22):
But I think that highlights too. When you've got high initiative,
you've got to have somebody who's able to match that
and and also work with it and understand it.
S3 (13:34):
I think it's a trade off as well with the
higher initiative. Stronger dogs or pigheaded dogs, whichever way you
want to put it, that it does take some energy
in different ways to to cut some of the energy
out so that we can retain what's left and harness
it to its best use when we're working on a
the road. I bet you that they are on the rise.
(13:56):
I can't remember now, but most likely I didn't walk enough.
That's why she was bored enough to no good.
S2 (14:03):
Taking it out on on you for not having done
your walk and your work and your 15,000 steps.
S4 (14:10):
And a run and.
S2 (14:14):
Just to finish off, I was going to ask if
there are any messages that you'd like to share with
any of the listeners, but anything you like.
S3 (14:22):
I think slightly different from what we've been talking about.
It's perhaps just thinking about sharing, about transiting into another dog. Um,
many of us dog handlers will have to go through
this at some stage. It was a transition for me,
moving from one dog to another, both on a working
front with all the different styles, different commands, different personality
(14:45):
in terms of the dog, but also different speed. I
was just saying turning radius is different because Maddie's a
lot longer. However, if you give it enough time, it
can be magical. And no two dogs are alike and
every partnership deserves something special. And when you give it
your all. I would say that the dogs, if they're
(15:07):
all back equally and hang in there with all the
instructors I've seen at Seeing Eyes, I think anyone can
make magic happen with a seeing Eye dog team. Any
one of them can make magic happen if if we
put in enough effort ourselves. It's a teamwork between instructor,
dog and client, I would say. I won't be here
(15:29):
without Justin. So thank you. And Mandy.
S4 (15:32):
That's a wonderful transition into that. I think it is
giving time and it is difficult. It's about talking about
when is the right time to retire a dog and
processes of going through it. And also it is that
transition about being kind to yourself to learn a different
(15:56):
style in terms of dogs. As you said that Mandy
was longer. So you turning is is different. Yeah. And
I think I think you you mentioned some that up
beautifully really. And thank you for that.
S3 (16:10):
Not at all.
S2 (16:12):
Well thank you so much, both of you, for your
time and coming and talking about your work together and
your life and partnership and, um, the wonderful Miss Mandy.
S4 (16:21):
Absolutely brilliant.
S3 (16:23):
Thank you for having us.
S1 (16:30):
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show on
Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with
Cassandra Chew and Justin Marshall. If you'd like to find
out part one of that interview, you can head to
our Omni FM page or your preferred podcast platform. Now,
without further ado, here is our second interview for the
day with puppy development trainer Abby, who's talking about grooming
(16:51):
your dog.
S2 (16:51):
Hi, Abby. Thank you for joining me on the show today.
S6 (16:54):
Thanks for having me.
S2 (16:55):
I would like to pick your brains about grooming.
S6 (16:58):
Oh, yes. Very important. Um, gotta gotta make sure our
dogs are looking spic and span. Um, it's not just
about whether us humans are having a good hair day.
They need to have a good hair day, too.
S2 (17:10):
So, I guess to start off with, how can you
help maintain a nice coat for your dog? And I guess, um,
you know, I should preface, it would be good to
focus on lab and golden type coats specifically. So for listeners,
keep in mind that that is the kind of dog
coat type that we're more familiar with, and that your
dog's coat might have different care requirements.
S6 (17:31):
So with your dogs, I always try to take the
approach of the more small amounts of regular care you
can do for your dog and their coat, the better
their coat is going to be in the long run.
So getting your dog really accustomed to their grooming equipment
so their grooming brushes, you might start off with something simple,
like a zoom groom that's nice and soft and gentle
(17:53):
on their coat. And then for your dogs that might
have a longer coat, like the Golden retrievers, you might
build up to a slicker brush. But take it slow
and at your dog's pace, but get them used to
that gently touching them. You might do that every evening
before bed. It's a really great bonding activity to sit
there and groom your dog. And we're also wanting to
check those paw pads, make sure there's no mud dried
(18:16):
up and clumping and pulling that hair together. Check their nails,
checking their ears. All of that falls into your grooming.
So starting off, we want to introduce our softest, most
gentle and most luxurious grooming tool. So a zoom groom
is a great place to start. Lots of our puppies
go home with a zoom groom so you can start
that by the day. Puppy comes home and you might
(18:38):
start just touching them with the non bristle side, running
it down the back of them or down their paws,
getting them used to the feeling of that tool touching them.
Once they're comfortable with that, flip it over and use
the bristles and brush through. Now, for most of our dogs,
this is going to be a better activity to do
in their preferred sleepy time, when they're less tempted to
(19:00):
just take that tool from you and chew it up.
Because while they will have a fun time, your tool
will not, and you will have to go out and
grab a new one. So really, the most important foundation
is to get your dog comfortable with the equipment. And
then we can delve into the actual grooming and what
that looks like with grooming. I guess you can ask
me next what does that actually look like? And it
(19:22):
does vary depending on time of year, type of dog,
age of dog, all those kind of things. So there
are phases where grooming is going to be a little
bit more intense. Melbourne is classic. You get a lot
of rain, a lot of wet weather. That is a
time where you're going to want to do a little
bit more grooming. You're going to want to make sure
you're drying off those paw pads, that there's no mud
(19:42):
from all those fun outside activities getting dried up because
that can cause discomfort and actually make it harder for
your dog to sit there and let you groom them
if you're only doing it on a less frequent basis.
If that's been sort of pulling and uncomfortable, if your
dog has been out and about and had a bit
too much fun, it's always good to get a brush
in there after they get home, get any of that
(20:03):
dust and debris, grass seeds, anything like that out, particularly
if you have a yellow coated lab or a golden retriever,
they can get some pretty gnarly grass stains if they're
having too much fun. So get started on getting those
out for them. And any time that they might pop
down to the beach and have a play around in
the water, it's a really good idea to check out
those ears. Make sure you're drying them off to help
(20:25):
prevent any irritations or infections.
S2 (20:28):
And when we're talking about the golden retriever and slightly
kind of longer hair, is there any things that you
should look at in those tools to make sure that
it's the right tool?
S6 (20:38):
So with those longer coated dogs can be really helpful
to have a slightly longer coated bristle on the brushes
that you're using. Alternatively, if your dog's not a fan
of a brush, you can get some really great grooming
mitts that you just pop on your hand and it
gets them like, um, feeling like they're having a pattern
of cuddle rather than that more formal grooming style. You really,
really want to make sure you're getting underneath any joints,
(21:01):
underneath their legs, around their paws, around their tail. Maintaining
that tail, that gorgeous tail is really, really important, particularly
where it attaches to the rest of them, because there
may be some, uh, lack of grooming and cleaning from
the dog that's going on there that you want to
make sure you take care of. The other places that
are really important are their tufts just behind their ears.
(21:22):
You can get a little bit of mats and things there.
The more you're grooming those brushes. So even comb style
brushes can be really useful if you do have that
golden retriever to help gently brush out any of those mats.
Simple trick is work from the bottom of the dog's
fur coat and work up to the skin. If you
start it right at their skin and brush down, if
(21:43):
there are any knots you can tug and pull. So
just starting at the bottom of the hair and working up,
be really, really helpful for those things. Grooming also includes
their nails. Um, so making sure those nails are staying
nice and trim. Easiest way to do that is make
sure they're walking on plenty of hard surfaces and abrasive surfaces,
like your concrete pavers. So if you're doing a lot
(22:03):
of your walks on the footpath, their nails should fall
down quite naturally. If you are lucky enough to have
a seeing-eye puppy walk to your your PDT, your contact,
your breeding officer, whoever that may be for you, and
they might be able to help trim them. But for
pet dogs, you might be looking at using things like
scratching boards or going to a groomer regularly and having
them work with their nails. Some dogs do find having
(22:27):
their nails trimmed very distressing, so that might be something
you work with your vet with. But if you have
a seeing-eye puppy, so a Labrador retriever. Just talk to
your seeing-eye contact in terms of that and they'll help
you maintain those.
S2 (22:39):
And when we're talking about the quite sensitive areas of
the dog. So, you know, especially kind of around the
tummy and armpits, that type of thing. Would you suggest
using probably a slightly less abrasive brush just to make
sure that you're not really pulling?
S6 (22:55):
And absolutely, you want to make sure you're being really
gentle in general, but also those more sensitive areas around,
you know, the tummy and and such. So making sure
you're using that softer zoom groom style in those areas
and saving your slickers or your combs for those longer hairs,
those gorgeous golden retriever tails that might be somewhere where
(23:16):
you save those tools for.
S2 (23:18):
And as a note, I guess for anyone that's got
a bit of matting, anything more than that, work with
your contact rather than trying to brush it out yourself.
Because sometimes the most gentle thing is to cut them
out and try again, then not get to that point, um,
rather than pulling it, pulling it. Maths is not going
to be very comfortable and might make brushing harder the
next time.
S6 (23:39):
Absolutely. And the other times of year that it's really
important to touch base with your contacts to determine if
things are sort of normal. Seasonal changes are anytime that
season and weather is changing, coming from those colder months
into those warmer months, you will see a lot more shedding,
a lot more tufts. Those should typically be easily brushed out.
But if they are, if you are struggling to brush
(24:01):
them out with a mic zoom groom or a standard
slicker brush, please do touch base with your contact because
it might be a little bit more than a standard
tuft of hair. Or you may notice if you have
a young pup, they go through sort of some life
changes and as they get older they do lose that
really soft, gorgeous, amazing to touch puppy coats like velvet,
(24:21):
so they will get quite tufty and look a little
bit straggly as they lose that coat again. Regular 5
to 15 minutes a night of brushing should get those
out in a normal instance. If you're finding that's not helping,
just touch base with your contact.
S2 (24:36):
And when we're talking about your dog being a bit
gross and a bit muddy, is a bath always necessary?
S6 (24:41):
So a bath isn't always necessary. But what you may
want to look at is where is the dirt? What
sort of dirt is it and what is the weather?
So it's always good to take in mind, you know,
if we're in the middle of winter and it's freezing
cold outside and your dog is not comfortable with being
towel dried, is not comfortable with being dried off at
(25:01):
the groomers with the dog dryers, then you may choose
to really work on brushing the dirt out. Allow it
to dry, brush it out, work with it. You may
even just spot wash and simply get some nice warm water,
a little bit of soap and just wash that particular area.
A full bath may not be necessary every time. It's
also really important to keep an eye on how often
(25:22):
you are washing your dog. So if you find you're
washing your dog more frequently than every sort of 2
to 3 weeks, you would want to review your other
grooming practices, because you're going to be stripping all of
those oils out of your dog's coat, and that's what's
keeping their skin nice and dandruff free. And the more
we wash them, the more we're drying it out, the
more we're creating some dandruff and other skin irritations can
(25:43):
come along with that. So you don't want to be
washing them too often. But in saying that, it is
really useful when you are wanting to wash your dog,
to start off with just simple water washes, dry them
off really well. Get them used to the process before
you introduce soap, because if you are washing your dog
with a nice, beautiful smelling shampoo that is puppy safe
(26:04):
and dog safe, you want to make sure you're getting
all of that off. Because if you do leave some
of that in there coat, it can cause irritations, allergies,
all of that kind of stuff that we just want
to avoid.
S2 (26:14):
Why is it so important to regularly groom your dog?
S6 (26:17):
There's many reasons that it's really important to regularly groom
your dog. Obviously, the number one is for their own
health and wellbeing. The better groomed they are, the less
likely they are to have matts skin irritations. It's a
great opportunity to bond with your dog and have some
really calm, settled interactions that help really solidify the trust
that they have with you for your other training and
(26:38):
your other activities, it's a great opportunity to check your
dog's overall health. You can check for lumps, bumps, tics, grass, seeds,
all of those kind of things that day to day.
If you're not touching base and grooming them can get
missed and can cause some really severe health reactions if
we don't stay on top of those things, but also
just for public access. In our realm of seeing eye dogs,
(27:01):
it's really important that our dogs are representing themselves really well.
They're looking nice and professional. Most of us wouldn't go
to work if we hadn't brushed her hair that morning.
So same thing goes for our dogs. We want them
to really be showing the best foot forward. It really
helps with keeping them nice and clean for access. These
dogs are going into public spaces. They could be in cafes,
they could be in libraries. We don't want them leaving
(27:23):
more hair than is necessary behind, so make sure you're
grooming that out. The other benefit is the more you
groom your dog, the less hair that dog is going
to leave on your floor at home that you have
to vacuum or sweep up. So that's a really big
bonus if you've got more than one dog floating around.
You know just how much hair can accumulate, so the
more you groom, the more it can help with those
kind of things as well. And it also is just
(27:45):
a really nice activity for your dog. And most of
them really do enjoy it, because there's lots of things
they can't get access to to scratch an itch themselves.
S1 (28:00):
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show on
Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interviews with Cassandra,
Justin and Abby. If you'd like to find out more
about seeing Eye dogs, the work we do, how you
can help, or becoming a handler, head to our website at.
For more episodes of The Seeing Eye Dog Show, head
(28:21):
to our Omni FM platform or your preferred podcast provider.
Thank you for tuning in and have a lovely rest
of your week.
On Vision Australia Radio. You're listening to the Seeing Eye
Dogs radio show with me, your host, Harriet Moffatt. Today
I have part two of my interview with Seeing Eye Dogs,
handler and Executive Director of Canine Assistant Singapore, Cassandra Choo,
and Seeing Eye Dogs Senior instructor Justin Marshall talking about
Cassandra's life with seeing eye dog advocacy and access in
(00:42):
Singapore and the work of Canine Assistant Singapore for the
part one of that interview. Head to our Omni FM
page or your preferred podcast platform. Then I have a
repeat of an interview with puppy development trainer Abby Howes,
talking about how to keep your dog nicely groomed and
(01:03):
why it's important to do so. Now, without further ado,
here's part two of my interview with Cassandra and Justin.
S2 (01:18):
Kind of next plans for you guys as a team,
or even if there's anything that you want to share
about the updates on Canine Assistant since we last spoke.
S3 (01:27):
Not much of it. Well, there's been an update. We
have just received our what we call an Institute of
Public Character Recognition as a charity here. So what that
means is donors have a two and a half times, um,
tax rebate when they make a donation to us. And
I believe that Vision Australia is a similar type charity
(01:47):
in Australia as well. And it basically just means that
we're recognized as trustworthy. And and of course, there are
lots of hoops to jump through to get there. We're
still waiting on full legislative change in Singapore to permit
other types of assistance dogs beyond seeing-eye dogs. So like
hearing dogs for the deaf and hard of hearing, or
mobility dogs for people with physical disabilities. And once that happens,
(02:09):
we're excited to start looking at placing these dogs.
S2 (02:14):
Wow. It's all very exciting, I guess. Like you said,
it's kind of a bit of a long process.
S3 (02:19):
It is.
S2 (02:20):
But chipping away.
S3 (02:22):
Chipping away bit at a time.
S4 (02:25):
I have to say, I've, um. Observed Sienna and Cassandra's
team completing a demo with her, and I'd have to
say Cassandra's got a wonderful team under her, and people
who have been able to get the most out of Sienna,
who absolutely loves doing the task. And while she's an ambassador,
(02:50):
you know, and doing it, it's still an insight into
the good work that K9 will be able to do
and provide to the Singapore community.
S3 (03:00):
Absolutely.
S2 (03:01):
I guess it makes it very kind of tangible seeing
the dog. Do you know an actual task themselves rather
than just saying, oh, the dogs help people, we promise.
S5 (03:11):
Yeah. And it's very.
S3 (03:12):
Different as well, because many people think about assistance dogs
as seeing eye dogs helping a blind person. But they
cannot imagine that a dog can be trained to open
a drawer, retrieve a medical kit, and go place that
kit in his handler's it its handler's hands, or, you know,
alert its handler to a ringing doorbell or something else.
(03:35):
And that's just so, so many things that a dog
can do. And it's amazing what you can teach them.
S4 (03:40):
And I have to say, too, Cassandra has been a
long term advocate for fighting for people with vision impairment.
Because one thing I found and maybe interesting to Australian
community is that while it's legal to have a guide,
it's not reinforced. So as I've often worked and I
(04:06):
was ready to when I was following Cassandra, people would
turn around and say, that dog shouldn't be in here,
or why is that dog here? And so with the
good work that Cassandra's doing with canine, she's also been
doing it along the way with her dog guides. And
that for me, Cassandra, that was. I mean, you've been
living that sort of culture for a long time, but
(04:27):
for me to hear people pretty much abuse you at times,
it was pretty hard.
S5 (04:34):
Well, I.
S3 (04:34):
Abused them back, too.
S5 (04:38):
But very hostile.
S2 (04:39):
Especially when you can, you know, see the work that
Mandy is doing and how much she is doing.
S5 (04:46):
And sometimes just ignorance. It is just.
S3 (04:48):
Ignorance.
S5 (04:49):
And I think.
S3 (04:50):
Justin was was there once when we had an incident
at the train station with my team and there was
this lady shouting out that, oh, the dog can't go
in the train. So I've got gotten through the turnstiles
and I was walking down the stairs and this lady
was just shouting that, you know, dogs are not allowed.
And one of my team members told her that lady
lady's blind and it's a seeing eye dog, and it
helps her and it's allowed. And she went on and
(05:11):
on and on, trying to catch my attention by raising
her voice. So I just turned around and said, lady,
is there something wrong with your hearing?
S2 (05:21):
And you just kind of think, hopefully, as the education
goes on, that you'll have fewer and fewer of those interactions.
S3 (05:29):
And and it is it is it is a lot
less from, from what it used to be 15 years
ago in 2011, when I first came back with my
first dog, things were very, very different. The bus wouldn't
even open the door. Um, I got literally manhandled by
security guards and brought out of a building different, really,
really negative stuff. Now you just have ignorant quote unquote
(05:52):
Karens saying stupid shit, which is fine. And, you know,
you just let it go.
S2 (05:58):
I mean, I guess that's kind of unfortunately part of
being a dog guide handler, but especially in a country
where it's less accepted even than here.
S3 (06:05):
And there's so few of us like in in all
of in all of Singapore right now, there's only ten
dog guides, including Mandy. Yeah. Can you imagine that versus
we have the same population versus I think in Melbourne
you probably have something like all in with the both schools.
Maybe 300, 400 is my guess. Oh.
S4 (06:26):
Even more.
S3 (06:27):
More. Wow. Because Cedar alone has like, what, 200 plus?
S4 (06:33):
We have quite a few out there around because of
course we're doing Australia. So. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's amazing,
you know, with with the people over here, you know,
one of the big things they have problems with is
Ubers and and taxis. And you know, we have the
occasional supermarket and, and shopping centres. But you're, you don't
(06:59):
have the you've got to fight or you've got to
try to work out which restaurant you can go to
because it is not a given. And I know we
were we were seated outside at one of the restaurants.
And for me, it was a bit of a shock
of oh, but we're now being pushed outside to sit
on a table outside. But at least though for you
(07:23):
it was that we could still go to that, that
actual cafe or restaurant. Yeah. Um, it is a real
mind shift from, for me, culturally wise, to going over
there and, and seeing our client having to have these
fights every single day. But as we said, Cassandra, you've
(07:48):
been a strong advocate for years. And I would say,
you know, you're the trailblazer in in starting that movement.
And now at least, you know, you've got your school
that can now support that and others.
S3 (08:06):
Yes. And it's I mean, I think your famous phrase,
Justin sums it up when it comes to the fights, right?
With access issues and it's the same like walking a
dog when something goes wrong. You breathe, you burp, and
then you're fought and it's over.
S4 (08:22):
Don't give my secrets away. Now I'll be called on
I've called up to air.
S2 (08:31):
I'm relieved for your sakes that you can already kind
of start to, I guess, recognize the impact of the advocacy.
That's quite powerful, I think.
S3 (08:40):
Yes, it has definitely changed in 15 years. And it's
not perfect, but I don't think there's anywhere in the
world that's perfect. Even in the US on the Facebook
Dog Guide group over there, and you see lots of
nasty stuff happening as well. It's all over the world.
S2 (08:56):
I mean, then you get more fake assistance dogs too,
when that in itself is a whole different kettle of fish. SH.
S3 (09:01):
Correct.
S4 (09:02):
There's so many like that. And and that actually has
been quite devastating at times because working with a CNI
dog team, where they were working for big W and
a person came around on a wheelchair with an assistance
dog in inverted commas, and it literally jumped out and
(09:23):
and went for the CNI dog. And we've been working
with CNI dog, but it has had trouble as soon
as it gets near that shopping center. Now, it's had
such an impact on our, our dog.
S2 (09:35):
That's really tough.
S4 (09:37):
Mhm. So when hopefully when the you know legal and
and professional and well trained assistance dogs. So like I've
come across a lot of the hearing dogs and and
others assistance dogs from assistance Dogs Australia and there's been
no issue at all.
S3 (09:59):
They're well trained. You know they are essentially all the same.
They just have a different type of disability through a
different task that they do.
S4 (10:06):
Yeah. And they're all the legitimate ones. Unfortunately the the.
S3 (10:12):
Ones.
S4 (10:13):
Yeah. That make it hard.
S2 (10:15):
It's the ones that where they've just put a pet
dog in a jacket and assumed that it's fine. Which
is not great.
S4 (10:22):
That's it. Yeah. I'd have to say, you know, in
Cassandra's case, with. With the wonderful Mandy. It's okay. I
don't know how we. I've said to, uh, Nicola, our
head vet and and breeding manager. You know, we need
several more. Mandy's. And it's. We need to clone her around.
(10:47):
But it is a it's a credit of the breeding
and the time and the effort that goes into our dogs. Yeah.
Right from the point of conception through to puppy caring
and into our CNI dog training program and out with
our clients. It's what we have done and how we
have trained Mandy. I've seen her do things that we
(11:10):
haven't taught her, you know, and and things that Cassandra
has enhanced with her knowledge and her experiences. It's really
the connection which has happened so quickly. There is one
heart and one soul and one mind, and you really
can get to see telepathy happening within the two. I
(11:32):
think the cheekiness is her cheekiness is an absolute true
reflection of you, Cassandra. Um.
S3 (11:40):
And don't don't think that Mandy's all perfect and golden.
She was really cheeky last week. I had a container
of rice cooling before I put it in a fridge
next to the sink, and I was cleaning the house
and mopping the floor. When I came back, the container
was still there and there were a couple of grains
of rice on the counter, but the container was empty.
S4 (12:02):
She's a dog. First, though.
S3 (12:06):
It's not the first time and probably not going to
be the last. My fault for leaving it out there?
S4 (12:11):
No, and I think that's it. Out of. Out of.
It's like all of us, you know, when we go
to work, we put our professional hat on. And when
we come home, we hop into our tracky dacks and relax.
And she she gets home and takes off her, takes
off her frock, and she's a normal dog.
S2 (12:30):
And personally, personally, when I have tempting snacks on the
side that are open, I definitely tend to eat more
than I should.
S3 (12:39):
Especially when no one's watching.
S2 (12:41):
Exactly. No one's watching. I can eat this whole thing.
It's fine.
S4 (12:44):
Yep.
S3 (12:45):
But the best part is, I've got so many dogs
over the years, and this is obviously not the first time.
Like something like this has happened, but usually they would
topple the container to get to the food. But Mandy
has never done it. The container is perfectly there. Never toppled.
S2 (13:01):
That's kind of where she's so smart. She's so smart
that she says, oh, she won't even notice because I
don't even notice. She'll just think she didn't put any
rice in there.
S3 (13:09):
Yeah, it just evaporated. The rice evaporated. I'm just going
to gaslight her.
S2 (13:16):
Yeah. Oh, dear. That. It's borderline worrying.
S4 (13:22):
But I think that highlights too. When you've got high initiative,
you've got to have somebody who's able to match that
and and also work with it and understand it.
S3 (13:34):
I think it's a trade off as well with the
higher initiative. Stronger dogs or pigheaded dogs, whichever way you
want to put it, that it does take some energy
in different ways to to cut some of the energy
out so that we can retain what's left and harness
it to its best use when we're working on a
the road. I bet you that they are on the rise.
(13:56):
I can't remember now, but most likely I didn't walk enough.
That's why she was bored enough to no good.
S2 (14:03):
Taking it out on on you for not having done
your walk and your work and your 15,000 steps.
S4 (14:10):
And a run and.
S2 (14:14):
Just to finish off, I was going to ask if
there are any messages that you'd like to share with
any of the listeners, but anything you like.
S3 (14:22):
I think slightly different from what we've been talking about.
It's perhaps just thinking about sharing, about transiting into another dog. Um,
many of us dog handlers will have to go through
this at some stage. It was a transition for me,
moving from one dog to another, both on a working
front with all the different styles, different commands, different personality
(14:45):
in terms of the dog, but also different speed. I
was just saying turning radius is different because Maddie's a
lot longer. However, if you give it enough time, it
can be magical. And no two dogs are alike and
every partnership deserves something special. And when you give it
your all. I would say that the dogs, if they're
(15:07):
all back equally and hang in there with all the
instructors I've seen at Seeing Eyes, I think anyone can
make magic happen with a seeing Eye dog team. Any
one of them can make magic happen if if we
put in enough effort ourselves. It's a teamwork between instructor,
dog and client, I would say. I won't be here
(15:29):
without Justin. So thank you. And Mandy.
S4 (15:32):
That's a wonderful transition into that. I think it is
giving time and it is difficult. It's about talking about
when is the right time to retire a dog and
processes of going through it. And also it is that
transition about being kind to yourself to learn a different
(15:56):
style in terms of dogs. As you said that Mandy
was longer. So you turning is is different. Yeah. And
I think I think you you mentioned some that up
beautifully really. And thank you for that.
S3 (16:10):
Not at all.
S2 (16:12):
Well thank you so much, both of you, for your
time and coming and talking about your work together and
your life and partnership and, um, the wonderful Miss Mandy.
S4 (16:21):
Absolutely brilliant.
S3 (16:23):
Thank you for having us.
S1 (16:30):
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show on
Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with
Cassandra Chew and Justin Marshall. If you'd like to find
out part one of that interview, you can head to
our Omni FM page or your preferred podcast platform. Now,
without further ado, here is our second interview for the
day with puppy development trainer Abby, who's talking about grooming
(16:51):
your dog.
S2 (16:51):
Hi, Abby. Thank you for joining me on the show today.
S6 (16:54):
Thanks for having me.
S2 (16:55):
I would like to pick your brains about grooming.
S6 (16:58):
Oh, yes. Very important. Um, gotta gotta make sure our
dogs are looking spic and span. Um, it's not just
about whether us humans are having a good hair day.
They need to have a good hair day, too.
S2 (17:10):
So, I guess to start off with, how can you
help maintain a nice coat for your dog? And I guess, um,
you know, I should preface, it would be good to
focus on lab and golden type coats specifically. So for listeners,
keep in mind that that is the kind of dog
coat type that we're more familiar with, and that your
dog's coat might have different care requirements.
S6 (17:31):
So with your dogs, I always try to take the
approach of the more small amounts of regular care you
can do for your dog and their coat, the better
their coat is going to be in the long run.
So getting your dog really accustomed to their grooming equipment
so their grooming brushes, you might start off with something simple,
like a zoom groom that's nice and soft and gentle
(17:53):
on their coat. And then for your dogs that might
have a longer coat, like the Golden retrievers, you might
build up to a slicker brush. But take it slow
and at your dog's pace, but get them used to
that gently touching them. You might do that every evening
before bed. It's a really great bonding activity to sit
there and groom your dog. And we're also wanting to
check those paw pads, make sure there's no mud dried
(18:16):
up and clumping and pulling that hair together. Check their nails,
checking their ears. All of that falls into your grooming.
So starting off, we want to introduce our softest, most
gentle and most luxurious grooming tool. So a zoom groom
is a great place to start. Lots of our puppies
go home with a zoom groom so you can start
that by the day. Puppy comes home and you might
(18:38):
start just touching them with the non bristle side, running
it down the back of them or down their paws,
getting them used to the feeling of that tool touching them.
Once they're comfortable with that, flip it over and use
the bristles and brush through. Now, for most of our dogs,
this is going to be a better activity to do
in their preferred sleepy time, when they're less tempted to
(19:00):
just take that tool from you and chew it up.
Because while they will have a fun time, your tool
will not, and you will have to go out and
grab a new one. So really, the most important foundation
is to get your dog comfortable with the equipment. And
then we can delve into the actual grooming and what
that looks like with grooming. I guess you can ask
me next what does that actually look like? And it
(19:22):
does vary depending on time of year, type of dog,
age of dog, all those kind of things. So there
are phases where grooming is going to be a little
bit more intense. Melbourne is classic. You get a lot
of rain, a lot of wet weather. That is a
time where you're going to want to do a little
bit more grooming. You're going to want to make sure
you're drying off those paw pads, that there's no mud
(19:42):
from all those fun outside activities getting dried up because
that can cause discomfort and actually make it harder for
your dog to sit there and let you groom them
if you're only doing it on a less frequent basis.
If that's been sort of pulling and uncomfortable, if your
dog has been out and about and had a bit
too much fun, it's always good to get a brush
in there after they get home, get any of that
(20:03):
dust and debris, grass seeds, anything like that out, particularly
if you have a yellow coated lab or a golden retriever,
they can get some pretty gnarly grass stains if they're
having too much fun. So get started on getting those
out for them. And any time that they might pop
down to the beach and have a play around in
the water, it's a really good idea to check out
those ears. Make sure you're drying them off to help
(20:25):
prevent any irritations or infections.
S2 (20:28):
And when we're talking about the golden retriever and slightly
kind of longer hair, is there any things that you
should look at in those tools to make sure that
it's the right tool?
S6 (20:38):
So with those longer coated dogs can be really helpful
to have a slightly longer coated bristle on the brushes
that you're using. Alternatively, if your dog's not a fan
of a brush, you can get some really great grooming
mitts that you just pop on your hand and it
gets them like, um, feeling like they're having a pattern
of cuddle rather than that more formal grooming style. You really,
really want to make sure you're getting underneath any joints,
(21:01):
underneath their legs, around their paws, around their tail. Maintaining
that tail, that gorgeous tail is really, really important, particularly
where it attaches to the rest of them, because there
may be some, uh, lack of grooming and cleaning from
the dog that's going on there that you want to
make sure you take care of. The other places that
are really important are their tufts just behind their ears.
(21:22):
You can get a little bit of mats and things there.
The more you're grooming those brushes. So even comb style
brushes can be really useful if you do have that
golden retriever to help gently brush out any of those mats.
Simple trick is work from the bottom of the dog's
fur coat and work up to the skin. If you
start it right at their skin and brush down, if
(21:43):
there are any knots you can tug and pull. So
just starting at the bottom of the hair and working up,
be really, really helpful for those things. Grooming also includes
their nails. Um, so making sure those nails are staying
nice and trim. Easiest way to do that is make
sure they're walking on plenty of hard surfaces and abrasive surfaces,
like your concrete pavers. So if you're doing a lot
(22:03):
of your walks on the footpath, their nails should fall
down quite naturally. If you are lucky enough to have
a seeing-eye puppy walk to your your PDT, your contact,
your breeding officer, whoever that may be for you, and
they might be able to help trim them. But for
pet dogs, you might be looking at using things like
scratching boards or going to a groomer regularly and having
them work with their nails. Some dogs do find having
(22:27):
their nails trimmed very distressing, so that might be something
you work with your vet with. But if you have
a seeing-eye puppy, so a Labrador retriever. Just talk to
your seeing-eye contact in terms of that and they'll help
you maintain those.
S2 (22:39):
And when we're talking about the quite sensitive areas of
the dog. So, you know, especially kind of around the
tummy and armpits, that type of thing. Would you suggest
using probably a slightly less abrasive brush just to make
sure that you're not really pulling?
S6 (22:55):
And absolutely, you want to make sure you're being really
gentle in general, but also those more sensitive areas around,
you know, the tummy and and such. So making sure
you're using that softer zoom groom style in those areas
and saving your slickers or your combs for those longer hairs,
those gorgeous golden retriever tails that might be somewhere where
(23:16):
you save those tools for.
S2 (23:18):
And as a note, I guess for anyone that's got
a bit of matting, anything more than that, work with
your contact rather than trying to brush it out yourself.
Because sometimes the most gentle thing is to cut them
out and try again, then not get to that point, um,
rather than pulling it, pulling it. Maths is not going
to be very comfortable and might make brushing harder the
next time.
S6 (23:39):
Absolutely. And the other times of year that it's really
important to touch base with your contacts to determine if
things are sort of normal. Seasonal changes are anytime that
season and weather is changing, coming from those colder months
into those warmer months, you will see a lot more shedding,
a lot more tufts. Those should typically be easily brushed out.
But if they are, if you are struggling to brush
(24:01):
them out with a mic zoom groom or a standard
slicker brush, please do touch base with your contact because
it might be a little bit more than a standard
tuft of hair. Or you may notice if you have
a young pup, they go through sort of some life
changes and as they get older they do lose that
really soft, gorgeous, amazing to touch puppy coats like velvet,
(24:21):
so they will get quite tufty and look a little
bit straggly as they lose that coat again. Regular 5
to 15 minutes a night of brushing should get those
out in a normal instance. If you're finding that's not helping,
just touch base with your contact.
S2 (24:36):
And when we're talking about your dog being a bit
gross and a bit muddy, is a bath always necessary?
S6 (24:41):
So a bath isn't always necessary. But what you may
want to look at is where is the dirt? What
sort of dirt is it and what is the weather?
So it's always good to take in mind, you know,
if we're in the middle of winter and it's freezing
cold outside and your dog is not comfortable with being
towel dried, is not comfortable with being dried off at
(25:01):
the groomers with the dog dryers, then you may choose
to really work on brushing the dirt out. Allow it
to dry, brush it out, work with it. You may
even just spot wash and simply get some nice warm water,
a little bit of soap and just wash that particular area.
A full bath may not be necessary every time. It's
also really important to keep an eye on how often
(25:22):
you are washing your dog. So if you find you're
washing your dog more frequently than every sort of 2
to 3 weeks, you would want to review your other
grooming practices, because you're going to be stripping all of
those oils out of your dog's coat, and that's what's
keeping their skin nice and dandruff free. And the more
we wash them, the more we're drying it out, the
more we're creating some dandruff and other skin irritations can
(25:43):
come along with that. So you don't want to be
washing them too often. But in saying that, it is
really useful when you are wanting to wash your dog,
to start off with just simple water washes, dry them
off really well. Get them used to the process before
you introduce soap, because if you are washing your dog
with a nice, beautiful smelling shampoo that is puppy safe
(26:04):
and dog safe, you want to make sure you're getting
all of that off. Because if you do leave some
of that in there coat, it can cause irritations, allergies,
all of that kind of stuff that we just want
to avoid.
S2 (26:14):
Why is it so important to regularly groom your dog?
S6 (26:17):
There's many reasons that it's really important to regularly groom
your dog. Obviously, the number one is for their own
health and wellbeing. The better groomed they are, the less
likely they are to have matts skin irritations. It's a
great opportunity to bond with your dog and have some
really calm, settled interactions that help really solidify the trust
that they have with you for your other training and
(26:38):
your other activities, it's a great opportunity to check your
dog's overall health. You can check for lumps, bumps, tics, grass, seeds,
all of those kind of things that day to day.
If you're not touching base and grooming them can get
missed and can cause some really severe health reactions if
we don't stay on top of those things, but also
just for public access. In our realm of seeing eye dogs,
(27:01):
it's really important that our dogs are representing themselves really well.
They're looking nice and professional. Most of us wouldn't go
to work if we hadn't brushed her hair that morning.
So same thing goes for our dogs. We want them
to really be showing the best foot forward. It really
helps with keeping them nice and clean for access. These
dogs are going into public spaces. They could be in cafes,
they could be in libraries. We don't want them leaving
(27:23):
more hair than is necessary behind, so make sure you're
grooming that out. The other benefit is the more you
groom your dog, the less hair that dog is going
to leave on your floor at home that you have
to vacuum or sweep up. So that's a really big
bonus if you've got more than one dog floating around.
You know just how much hair can accumulate, so the
more you groom, the more it can help with those
kind of things as well. And it also is just
(27:45):
a really nice activity for your dog. And most of
them really do enjoy it, because there's lots of things
they can't get access to to scratch an itch themselves.
S1 (28:00):
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show on
Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interviews with Cassandra,
Justin and Abby. If you'd like to find out more
about seeing Eye dogs, the work we do, how you
can help, or becoming a handler, head to our website at.
For more episodes of The Seeing Eye Dog Show, head
(28:21):
to our Omni FM platform or your preferred podcast provider.
Thank you for tuning in and have a lovely rest
of your week.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com