Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:19):
On Vision Australia radio. You're listening to the Seeing Eye
Dogs show. With me, your host, Harriet Moffatt. Today I
have two guests joining me. I have Cassandra Choo from
Singapore are Seeing Eye Dogs Handler to Mandy and founder
of Canine Assistance Singapore and senior Seeing Eye Dogs instructor
Justin Marshall, who's going to be talking to us a
(00:41):
bit about working with the team. We're going to be
talking about the lives of Cassandra and Mandy and some
of the interesting and unique challenges. Being a dog guide
handler in Singapore, we're going to be talking about some
of the amazing work that Cassandra and Mandy do together
and their lives as a team. Part two of that
interview will be available aired over radio next week or
(01:04):
on your preferred podcast platform, as well as other Great
Vision Australia radio shows and other episodes of The Seeing
Eye Dog show. Now, I hope you enjoy my interview
with Cassandra and Justin, talking about their lives and working
together and learning a bit about Singapore and follow ups
of a dog team.
S2 (01:30):
Hi, Cassandra. Hi, Justin. Thank you for joining me on
the show today.
S3 (01:33):
Thank you.
S4 (01:34):
Thank you.
S2 (01:35):
Could you please start off by introducing yourselves?
S3 (01:38):
I'm Cassandra and I'm from Singapore. I am with my
seeing eye dog, Mandy, who is under my feet right now,
and she's my third dog guide and I would say
probably the most fantastic.
S2 (01:52):
Wow. Big words for Mandy there.
S3 (01:54):
Mhm.
S4 (01:54):
I'd have to say I agree with Cassandra but um
I'm Justin Marshall, I'm one of the senior senior dog
mobility instructors, and I've had the honor and privilege of
being able to train and work with Cassandra with her
fantastic seeing eye dog, Mandy.
S2 (02:13):
So how long have you worked together with Mandy?
S3 (02:16):
Six coming on seven months, actually. We came home on
the 2nd or 3rd of November, and it's July now.
S2 (02:24):
It's kind of coming up there a bit, isn't it?
Like you kind of quite quickly start to bond a
bit more and get used to each other. How are
you feeling? Like you're working together now.
S3 (02:33):
Fantastic. As I said, out of all of the dogs
I've worked with, she's probably the sharpest. That bond is
really there. I can read her nonsense and she can
read my nonsense. And we work well as a team.
We've been doing so much more than just pure mobility stuff,
getting to work and home and shopping. I was just
complaining to Justin a couple of weeks ago that, um,
(02:54):
it's all the damn dog's fault because we started running
and I've lost so much weight, 10% of my body
weight that I needed a new wardrobe. And Mandy's exercised
my credit card too much.
S2 (03:06):
So what is it? Kind of typical day in your
lives together now.
S3 (03:10):
Well, we wake up in the mornings and I'm being
pushed to the floor somewhat and some very, very furry
ass badgers onto my lap and insist that she sits
there for three minutes at least. And then I stand
up and get my coffee and go about doing my
(03:32):
stuff and take her down to the grass to have
her toilets, and then we head off to work. I
don't live very far from work. One of my workplaces,
so I walk about 20 minutes. Oh, actually, I forgot
before I walk. Usually in the morning we go for
our runs. If I don't wake up too late. Yeah,
so we do about half an hour. I would say
our top speed is about 8.5km/h. We do not. Not
(03:56):
very far, about two and a half, three kilometres. Um,
just a quick one. And then I come home for
a quick shower before walking to work again. So we do.
We do get in our steps every day. Once we
get to the office. It's boring for her. She's just
got a bunch of toys and she's on my mat.
I'm in mental health and I am a couples therapist.
And I work with couples primarily with their communication issues.
(04:18):
That's my day job. And usually by midday we'll hop
across the road, grab the train to go to my
second office, which is the charity that I co-founded called
Canine Assistance that promotes the use and acceptance of different
types of assistance dogs. So Mandy guides me there and
she gets to hang out with another amazing dog, Sienna,
who is our Ambassador Assistance Dog and is trained to
(04:40):
demonstrate different tasks that different assistance dogs can do, and
the two of them girls just hang out, have their
gossip sessions, swap beds, and then by evening time, I
usually come back across town to the second counseling office
and have 1 or 2 counseling sessions before heading home.
That's my typical day.
S2 (05:00):
That sounds incredibly busy. I feel like you might need
to have a nap on whatever soft surface has been
provided some of those days.
S4 (05:08):
Actually, it's funny. I think Cassandra really downplayed what she
does and also the environment that she has to navigate.
So for our clients in in Australia, the terrain that
Cassandra and Mandy have to cover is completely different. And
while we think, you know, Singapore is very well set
(05:30):
up for a vision impaired person, for Cassandra, she has
to walk on the side of the road before she
can actually get to a section of a footpath. And
then also navigating on the footpaths over in in Singapore
is that people will just leave their rubbish bins there
or park their cars on it, or there'll be monuments,
(05:53):
you know, of offerings for.
S3 (05:56):
For the departed, the dearly departed that Justin's really afraid
of because I told him that if he steps on it,
then someone up there will be really angry and they'll
come and scare him at night?
S4 (06:06):
Yes. So there is a lot to navigate. And also
then the streets would be like Melbourne on steroids. Cassandra's
got to get to the public transport, cross several roads.
The other thing over there is that not all roads
have audible tactiles. It makes it very difficult for a
(06:28):
visually impaired person. And so for Cassandra to say, oh,
go off to the office, it's not so simple and
the people don't move out of the way, you know,
when they see a seeing eye dog team coming and
Cassandra flies her, she and Mandy fly when they're going
through the busy crowds, and all you can see behind
(06:51):
is a head moving from left to right. You know,
because yes, it's not as dog friendly as Australia. So
when Cassandra gets to her destination. She has done city
work on steroids and that's before she starts today.
S3 (07:09):
Well, Singapore is very unique and interesting because we've got
a super modern part of Singapore, like where I work,
where it's all tall office buildings, kind of like Southbank,
I guess, or Docklands, but as Justin say, on steroids,
and it's really, really crowded. We've got our population is
the same size probably as Melbourne, something like six point
something million, but Singapore is only 42km across and 30
(07:32):
something the other way. So it's really tiny compared to Australia.
And we're all packed in very, very tight. And Mandy's
got to weave through the crowds and obstacles like the
bins and signposts and so on. But she does an
amazing job, and I have to say that I am
able to fly with Mandy because Justin did an amazing job.
S4 (07:51):
How kind of you. But it's a team effort to
Sandra and it always is. If, you know, we work
together and and we make it work like any of
our programs, but but your program is a lot different
from some of the Australian programs, purely because I know
when I flew home with you with Mandy, I mean,
(08:12):
she was the little angel on the flight. So an eight,
nine hour flight. I remember us getting to the Singapore
airport and working very quickly so that we could take
her out to do her jobs.
S3 (08:26):
Yep. And she was so cute on the flight. You
remember the the little toy we got off colds that
we call Foxy? She was just hugging me all the
way home on the plane like a little baby. It's
just a tiny little toy. But she was hugging it,
and she.
S4 (08:39):
She always grabbed it. Whenever she got up and turned around,
she made sure that Foxy was with her.
S3 (08:44):
And, yep, it's always in her mouth.
S4 (08:46):
Yeah. And one thing about your program, too, is that
it's a baptism of fire. You just jump straight into
the busy environments. There's no settling into doing residential walks
around Singapore. You're in it.
S3 (09:00):
And there is no residential?
S4 (09:03):
No.
S3 (09:03):
Well, there is with the bins and cars.
S2 (09:05):
City and high population density and stuff. It's quite unique. Residential,
I guess.
S3 (09:10):
Yes. And as I was saying that the kind of
two sides once it's super busy modern site and one
of the places where I like to go for a
nice long walk and a run as well near my place.
It's a very old district in Singapore, and these are
old shophouses and conserved buildings. So you've got weird steps
out of nowhere. You've got little blocks on the road,
(09:30):
like to prevent flood from coming into the building. You
basically walk ten steps that maybe you have like a
funny step up. A couple more steps later, you have
a funny step down and you cross a little road
and it goes on like that.
S4 (09:43):
Remember, it is frightening. I always remember working to Cassandra's
hairdressers and we had to cross this huge road. It
is ginormous six lanes so there's no audible tactiles. And
so Cassandra and I came up and we were listening
to the traffic flow and we were able to work
that out. And then we got to walking along the footpath,
(10:04):
but the steps jut out halfway across the footpath to locate.
And so there's not enough room for a dog or
Cassandra to get by. And the team found it and
Mandy found it. But when you turn around to come out,
there is a three foot drop off with no railing
or anything that identifies where the steps are.
S3 (10:28):
So these are the really old buildings as well. So
it's a mix of modern and old.
S4 (10:33):
This highlights the importance of and I think how clever
Mandy is.
S3 (10:38):
Thought you were going to say I'm clever.
S4 (10:40):
To be able to adapt, but also, yeah, not making
it all Mandy Cassandra knowledge of the environment and her
experience has actually made it all come together. Cassandra was
orientating me as opposed to me orientating taking her and Mandy.
I don't know if anyone has ever been into the
(11:00):
Singapore underground, and I thought Orchard Road was busy, but
then Cassandra took me into the underground. It's like an octopus.
All these pathways are going off, going down to the MTR.
They just go anywhere and everywhere. And I was so
surprised and amazed by your ability, Cassandra, to know when
(11:23):
to turn in a jungle of people and corridors and
no clues that that you could really recognise to help
with the orientation.
S3 (11:36):
Well, it helps that I grew up in the city
and I have a map in my head. If I
were to go somewhere like that in a different country,
actually very similar is Japan in the Tokyo or even
Hokkaido subway train stations. It's like that too, and I'll
never be able to do it there because I don't
know the place. So whilst the dogs are amazing, I
think half of it is, is me knowing where I'm
(11:56):
going as well and really building that mental map. And
there's so many steps for a blind person to do that.
I remember when I first came back with Mandy and
I decided, well, this is a dog that can really work.
I need to get out there because my previous dog
was just dragging her feet towards the end and I've
moved into a new neighbourhood, so I put on some
GPS app, I think I use Voice Vista, and I
started walking around and hearing where I am, and that
(12:19):
gives me different landmarks. I'm able to drop a pin
on different places that I needed to turn. So I
built a whole walking route with Mandy that I could
then use for exercise, because she's such a high energy
dog that if I just got to work and did
nothing with her in the morning, she'll probably eat the
office down. So I needed to get the energy out
of her. But I also needed. It's an art and
(12:40):
a science, because I need that kind of high drive
in a dog to work in a city like Singapore.
But then I have a 9 to 5 job, or
sometimes longer, that the dog needs to really just chill
for hours on end.
S2 (12:53):
It's kind of amazing. And I was going to be
one of my questions for Justin, which was on the
kind of seeing eye dog side when, you know, looking
at matches, what are the types of things that you'd
be looking for for a match like Mandy and Cassandra?
S4 (13:07):
I think one of the things that we do very
well at seeing eye dogs is gather the information. And
because we are people centered, we work closely with the client.
We listen and work with them so that we can
make a right match, because Singapore is busy. So we're
always looking at for our assessments. We're looking at the
(13:29):
environment and the type of workload that a dog will need.
We also are looking at the person's personality and their capability.
So there's a lot of work that goes in behind
the scenes that people don't actually realize. So Singapore is
(13:49):
a city dog what we classify but on steroids. So
we need a dog that can cope. Have that initiative
and drive to be confident enough to guide in these
crowded environments. And you've always got to remember to the
dog is down at the person's knee height. So the
(14:10):
world is completely different. So we need the stamina. We
needed a dog that could keep going because we knew
that Cassandra was a busy person in both her professional
and personal life. So we get to know that side
of the person we also are looking at, you know,
whether there's any residual vision or not. Now, in terms
(14:32):
of Cassandra's got no light perception and needs the dog
to guide. So you need that dog with the ability
to be able to know its skills, know what it wants.
And for Mandy and Cassandra, they had to hit the
road running, I think, when Cassandra came out to Melbourne,
(14:52):
we could see it was a good match and Cassandra
had a walk with the dog beforehand. And I think
to dare I say it, is that the cheekiness that
Cassandra talks about about Mandy. I think she's actually looking
in a mirror when she's saying that.
S2 (15:10):
I did wonder, is that a reflection on you, Cassandra,
as well?
S3 (15:13):
Probably. Oh, by the way, Justin, I found I found
Mandy's weakness. You know, she's such a little robot when
it comes to work. Once the harness is on, she's
prim and proper, and she's on point every single time.
Until 2 or 3 days ago, when I took her
to the National Gallery in Singapore, which is like an
art museum of sorts, and she lost it because it's
(15:35):
an old colonial building. That was our Supreme Court that
was converted into a gallery. So we had a tour
of the old building. There was old holding cell for defendants.
There was a big courtroom. There was some art that
we went to see. But Maddie wouldn't stop looking at art.
She just. She was not guiding. She was had her
head turn left, looking and looking and looking at every
(15:59):
piece of art. I think we found her love.
S4 (16:02):
Well, she has style. And. And I must mention is
that normally, if we're talking about style and Mandy being
cultured and putting money on her credit card, Cassandra has
a treat pouch. But it happens to be a Gucci one.
S3 (16:20):
No, it's Prada, a Prada.
S2 (16:23):
Prada, Prada.
S3 (16:24):
Hey, got it on Collins Street. That was my graduation present.
S4 (16:29):
So the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. So
I think in this case, it's. It's an absolute perfect match.
Cassandra has only been out six months, so we're very,
very early days in the relationship. And for Cassandra to
say that. And I had a look at the travel
route when I was following her, the travel route that
(16:50):
Cassandra actually taught herself and Mandy to go over, and
it's a good few kilometres. Well, I was following the
team and there were drop offs. You know, we worry
about the inch on the side of the footpath between
the concrete and the nature strip over there. It could
(17:10):
be a foot or more. And Cassandra.
S3 (17:13):
You were freaking out. Do you see? This is the
best part about being blind. You don't know that the
drop off is there.
S4 (17:20):
I was absolutely freaking out. And there were sections where
Cassandra and Mandy were walking and there were poles everywhere.
And I thought, oh my God, they're going to hit them.
And next minute they just zoomed around them. So the
travel route that you taught yourself and Mandy was phenomenal.
It had everything in it and just the ability, I think,
(17:42):
of yourself and of Mandy to Mainly to actually work
out what steps to do. And I think you said
it on one point, Cassandra, that Mandy chose a section
or which way to go.
S3 (17:55):
Yes, she did chose a section.
S4 (17:58):
And it was right.
S3 (18:00):
Yep. She's too smart to be a dog.
S2 (18:03):
I think the thing that kind of gets me, too
is that, like you do all of this thinking, it
sounds like your environment and the travel that gets to
your work is in itself so much mental energy, I
assume to some degree. And then you still have the
energy to go and do two different jobs. That is
mind blowing to me.
S3 (18:21):
That's why I go home at the end of the night.
And you see, this is a good Aussie dog. She's
shut down by 8 p.m. and in her bed.
S2 (18:29):
Don't look at me. I'm asleep.
S3 (18:32):
And I just sit on my chair with a glass
of wine, and that's a perfect night. Mandy has a
mat next to my chair and she goes to sleep there.
S2 (18:40):
Have you had your follow up yet?
S4 (18:42):
Yeah, we did do February.
S3 (18:43):
Robbery. Yeah.
S2 (18:43):
And are you due for another one soon?
S3 (18:46):
Probably towards the end of the year.
S4 (18:47):
Yeah. And I think you might be thinking of coming
out to Australia. Mining you?
S3 (18:51):
Yes, I am thinking of coming out. Still trying to
work out the paperwork. Things are changing and shifting because
the rules flying in and out of Australia with a
service animal has changed. I used to come with my
previous dogs quite regularly, and it's a little bit easier.
The rules have changed a little bit now. I'll see
how that goes.
S2 (19:09):
It makes it more difficult.
S3 (19:11):
Just more steps and stricter. I was previously able to
fly into Melbourne, get on a train to go to
other parts like Sydney and Adelaide for other meetings and
stuff like that, but now I cannot. I can only
stay in one state when I'm there. Little changes like
this which keeps Australia safe. It's just a little bit
more planning.
S2 (19:32):
And you're right that it's important. It is. It does
kind of keep Australia's wildlife and Australia's pets and seeing
eye dogs safe, however inconvenient, for you in this particular time.
S3 (19:42):
Yes, it's one of those things, give and take.
S4 (19:44):
So if Cassandra can't come out here, then I'll go
over there and complete the follow up. Cassandra.
S3 (19:50):
Get sweaty.
S4 (19:51):
Get sweaty? Yes. Poor Mandy should be more acclimatized than
what I will be. Yes.
S2 (19:57):
Next plans for you guys as a team, or even
if there's anything that you want to share about the
updates on canine assistance. Since we last spoke.
S3 (20:06):
There's been an update. We have just received our what
we call an Institute of Public Character Recognition as a
charity here. What that means is donors have a two
and a half times, um, tax rebate when they make
a donation to us. And I believe that Vision Australia
is a similar type charity in Australia as well. And
it basically just means that we're recognized as trustworthy. And
(20:29):
of course, there are lots of hoops to jump through
to get there. We're still waiting on full legislative change
in Singapore to permit other types of assistance dogs beyond
seeing eye dogs or like hearing dogs for the deaf
and hard of hearing or mobility dogs for people with
physical disabilities. And once that happens, we're excited to start
looking at placing these dogs.
S2 (20:50):
Wow. It's all very exciting. I guess, like you said,
it's kind of a bit of a long process.
S3 (20:54):
It is.
S2 (20:55):
But chipping away.
S3 (20:56):
Chipping away bit at a time.
S4 (20:58):
I have to say, I've observed Sienna and Cassandra's team
completing a demo with her, and I'd have to say
Cassandra's got a wonderful team under her. People who have
been able to get the most out of Sienna, who
absolutely loves doing the task. And while she's an ambassador,
(21:20):
you know, and doing it, it's still an insight into
the good work that canine will be able to do
and provide to the Singapore community.
S3 (21:29):
Absolutely.
S2 (21:30):
I guess it makes it very kind of tangible seeing
the dog. Do you know an actual task themselves rather
than just saying, oh, the dogs help people, we promise.
S5 (21:38):
Yeah. And it's very.
S3 (21:39):
Different as well, because many people think about assistance dogs
as seeing eye dogs helping a blind person, but they
cannot imagine that a dog can be trained to open
a drawer, retrieve a medical kit, and go place that
kit in its handler's hands, or alert its handler to
a ringing doorbell or something else. And it's just so,
(22:00):
so many things that a dog can do, and it's
amazing what you can teach them.
S4 (22:04):
Cassandra has been a long term advocate fighting for people
with a vision impairment. Because one thing I found and
maybe interesting to Australian community is that while it's legal
to have a guide, it's not reinforced. So as I've
(22:25):
often worked and I was ready to when I was
following Cassandra, people would turn around and say, that dog
shouldn't be in here, or why is that dog here?
And so if the good work that Cassandra's doing with K9.
She's also been doing it along the way with her
dog guides. That for me, Cassandra? That was. I mean,
you've been living that sort of culture for a long time,
(22:47):
but for me to hear people pretty much abuse you
at times, it was pretty hard.
S5 (22:53):
Well, I.
S3 (22:54):
Abused them back, too.
S5 (22:57):
But very.
S2 (22:57):
Hostile. Especially when you can, you know, see the work
that Mandy is doing and how much she is doing.
S5 (23:04):
It is just.
S3 (23:05):
Ignorance. And I think Justin was there once when we
had an incident at the train station with my team,
and there was this lady shouting out that, oh, the
dog can't go in the train. So I've gotten through
the turnstiles and I was walking down the stairs and
this lady was just shouting that, you know, dogs are
not allowed. And one of my team members told her
that lady is blind and it's a seeing eye dog,
and it helps her and it's allowed. And she went
(23:26):
on and on and on, trying to catch my attention
by raising her voice. So I just turned around and said, lady,
is there something wrong with your hearing?
S2 (23:33):
And you just kind of think hopefully, as the education
goes on, that you'll have fewer and fewer of those interactions.
S5 (23:41):
It is a lot.
S3 (23:42):
Less from what it used to be 15 years ago,
in 2011, when I first came back with my first dog,
things were very, very different. The bus wouldn't even open
the door. I got literally manhandled by security guards and
brought out of a building different, really, really negative stuff.
Now you just have ignorant quote unquote Karens, which is fine. And,
(24:03):
you know, you just let it go.
S2 (24:05):
I mean, I guess that's kind of unfortunately part of
being a dog guide handler, but especially in a country
where it's less accepted even than here.
S3 (24:12):
And there's so few of us, like in all of
Singapore right now, there's only ten dog guides, including Mandy.
S1 (24:25):
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show on
Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interviews with
Seeing Eye Dogs, handler and founder of Canine assistant Cassandra
Chew with her dog Mandy, and senior senior dogs instructor
Justin Marshall. If you'd like to find out more about
seeing eye dogs, the work we do, or how you
can help, head to our website at. Don't forget that
(24:50):
part two of this interview will be available on the
radio the following week, or on your preferred podcast platform,
as well as a number of Great Vision Australia radio
shows and other episodes of The Seeing Eye Dog Show.
If you're interested in becoming a seeing eye dog handler
or learning about dog guide mobility, and if that is
right for you, you can head to that website as well,
(25:11):
or give us a call and chat to our friendly
team at 1800Â 037Â 773 or email info at. Don't forget to
tune in same time next week for another episode of
the show. And thank you for joining me.