June 19, 2025 • 28 mins
Harriet is joined by Seeing Eye Dog handler Dr Katie Butler to talk about her life, story and partnership with Seeing Eye Dog Quinnie. We talk about Katie's PhD and research in diversity, equity and inclusion and work as an academic in the field of DEI and accessing study for people with disabilities. Katie shares about life with her Seeing Eye Dog, and journey as a handler paired with dogs at different stages of her life.
Quinnie is Dr Katie's first dog guide from Seeing Eye Dogs and she talks about the support from the team. If you're blind or have low vision and are interested in becoming a handler or applying for a Seeing Eye Dog, please email us at info@sed.org.au or call on 1800 037 773 to discuss dog guide mobility, eligibility or assessment.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:10):
On Israeli radio. You're listening to the synagogue show with me,
your host, Eric Moffat. Today I'm joined by King Ottokar's handler,
Doctor Katie Butler, who's going to join us on the
show to chat about her life, her story, and her
partnership with Quinny, as well as a bit about her
research and her work in diversity, equity and inclusion. There's
lots to cover on this interesting interview, so I hope
(00:32):
you enjoy and thank you for listening. Hello, doctor. Katie,
how are you?
S2 (00:43):
I'm great. Thanks, Harriet. How are you?
S3 (00:45):
Good. Welcome to the show.
S2 (00:47):
Thank you. Great to be here.
S3 (00:49):
So we'd love if you're happy to start off by
introducing yourself.
S2 (00:53):
I'd love to. Uh, so I am an academic, and
I work in higher education, and I currently do a
position in equity. diversity and inclusion, which refers to making
sure that our staff and students have equitable opportunities to
(01:14):
do their best at university, either as staff or students.
S3 (01:19):
What does that constitute in terms of your role and
work that you've done?
S2 (01:24):
The role involves a lot of strategic planning and policy development,
and a lot of direct engagement in terms of training
and awareness raising.
S3 (01:37):
Could you please introduce your Seeing Eye dog?
S2 (01:39):
Sure, Ken. I was matched with Quinny late last year
and we started training in November last year. And she's
a black Labrador cross golden retriever, and she's absolutely gorgeous.
She's my fourth dog guide, but my first seeing eye dog.
S3 (01:58):
And how have you found the support from Seeing Eye
Dog so far?
S2 (02:02):
Um, I absolutely love seeing eye dogs. I found from
the very first moment when I inquired about receiving a
dog from seeing eye dogs, that the support was exemplary.
Communication was awesome. Heaps of transparency around matching and applying
(02:22):
for a dog, and lots of support with the actual
process of getting that dog to me. And the training
was wonderful and the follow ups being wonderful as well,
so I couldn't praise seeing eye dogs highly enough.
S3 (02:38):
Not just talking about seeing eye dogs here, but what
made you decide to apply for your first dog guide
and or continue being a dog handler?
S2 (02:45):
Uh, so I have very early memories in childhood of
wanting to have a dog guide, and that dream came
true for me when I was 17, and I received
my first dog, Ari, um, who was a guide dog. Yeah,
he completely changed my life. It was a fantastic time
(03:08):
for me to get a dog because, you know, being
on that cusp of adulthood, I'm stepping out and doing
lots of different new things in life. And he was
able to accompany me. And, you know, while I'm growing
and developing in confidence, he was there along for the ride,
and I wasn't held back because I couldn't get out
(03:29):
and do things. So absolutely life changing. And each of
my dogs has sort of followed that legacy and helped
me maintain that independence and that ability to explore and
adventure and just do whatever I want and need to do.
S3 (03:47):
Getting one, kind of like you said, 17 the cusp
of adulthood is fascinating and pivotal time in your life
in general. You're seeking all of the independence would be
really hard to step out of your comfort zone into
adulthood without, you know, feeling like the most confidence in
your own mobility.
S2 (04:03):
Absolutely. He was like me getting my first car, basically
being able to go everywhere I wanted and needed to
go because I had him.
S3 (04:16):
And I think probably going into your different life stages now,
I'm sure that Quinny is probably a very different type
of dog. Is that something that you found?
S2 (04:24):
Each of them seem to suit a particular time in life.
And yeah, Quinny is Quinn. He's a different dog. And
my dog before her, Sadie was completely different again. And yeah,
they they all bring something completely special to different parts
of my life.
S3 (04:45):
You've mentioned that you're an academic and I introduce you
as doctor. So you've done a PhD. Can you tell
us a bit about that and the type of research
that you've done on access and inclusion?
S2 (04:55):
Sure. So my PhD was all about looking at what
could help large organisations do disability inclusive planning and practice. Well.
So that involved a methodology which is known as action research,
which essentially means you go into an organization and you
(05:17):
actually actively working with that organization to help them bring
about change, but you're also researching it at the same time.
So it has a really practical implication. And it was
an amazing, positive experience because I really got to discover
what barriers were in their way, what helped them move
forward with this type of planning and practice, and also
(05:41):
helped them to strengthen their approach as well. So it
was a fascinating experience.
S3 (05:48):
And it's called, I guess, have really had that impact
on an organization and then help them hopefully lead the
way or, you know, your research can help shape access
and inclusion for other organizations. Did you focus primarily on
blindness and low vision.
S2 (06:02):
Or no general disability. And now my focus is always
generally broader than Linus and low vision alone. But obviously
the blindness does impact my work quite significantly. It brings
a certain lens to the way that I conduct my
research and my practice. So there are often elements of
(06:26):
blindness that work their way into my research and my practice,
for sure.
S3 (06:33):
I would think that it would be kind of amazing
in so much to study in, in the kind of
scope of all disabilities, because, you know, there's no kind
of one size fits all to access or inclusion.
S2 (06:44):
Mhm. That's true. And that's almost the one thing that
everybody has in common is that we really need to
be thinking broadly about how we, we do inclusion and
how to make sure that everybody gets an equitable opportunity.
So even though it's the thing that makes us all
so different, it's also the thing that brings us all together,
(07:05):
and it helps us advocate for the same thing.
S3 (07:10):
How does your lived experience or, you know, even being
a dog guide handler inform? You know that work and
your previous study.
S2 (07:16):
Well, I knew very early on in my university studies
that I wanted to work in the disability field. And
that was most definitely influenced by my experience as a
blind person and encountering barriers to equal participation in society.
(07:37):
So mostly for me, those barriers were informational or communication
type barriers, and I just wanted to be able to
contribute and change that narrative so that people into the
future might not have to encounter those kind of difficulties.
And I do wonder sometimes what on earth I would
(07:57):
have done if I wasn't blind. It's an interesting thing
to think about.
S3 (08:03):
Even being blind. If you had an alternate, what would
it be? You know.
S2 (08:08):
Mhm. Um, well I think, uh, possibly something to do
with dogs. Yeah. Um, for sure. Because they're definitely, um,
you know, very important to me. So I feel like
dogs might have well featured in my career if I
wasn't blind.
S3 (08:24):
Okay. So really, you know, being able to take the
dog to work with you or, you know, that being
kind of part of your life fills that criteria as well,
to some degree.
S2 (08:33):
Absolutely. Yeah. Best of both worlds, right.
S3 (08:36):
Oh, just thinking about the kind of work and moving
forward with equal participation, especially in kind of those, you know,
study areas. It blows my mind a little bit how
much things must have changed in the last like, you know, ten,
20 years, just even with technology that can be utilized
for accessibility. Um, I can imagine studying would have been very,
very different 20 years ago.
S2 (08:57):
Yeah. Well, when I did my undergraduate degree, I started
in 2010. Things were so different. We still relied a
lot on paper readers, so I remember going and picking
up volumes of articles and things that I'd need to
get converted so that I could read them. And these days,
you just don't have the same challenge because so much
(09:20):
is available digitally. You can read journal articles directly online. Um,
when I used to have to convert them all manually,
and our optical character recognition software that sits within a
screen reader these days is so advanced as well that
the same barriers that existed with, um, image based text
(09:44):
also aren't as significant, because the software can pull that
text out and read it much more efficiently. So hugely
life changing.
S3 (09:53):
Really encouraging, I guess, for people that are thinking about
getting into study or learning more. You know, there's lots
of opportunities that there, you know, may not have been earlier.
S2 (10:02):
Yeah, it certainly does take some time to really get
good with this kind of technology to get the best
out of it. Like, it's not a quick and easy
thing to learn a screen reader so that you can
get the best out of it. But once you do,
you know the world really is at your fingertips.
S3 (10:19):
So what do you think that the general public should
know about diversity, equity and inclusion?
S2 (10:24):
Oh great question. So equity, diversity and inclusion is all
about equaling the playing field. And it's about making sure
that everybody has the opportunity to participate and contribute meaningfully
and feel like they belong in their own communities and
their own workplaces. And the reason why we need equity,
(10:51):
diversity and inclusion is because when societies, organizations and institutions
are set up, they are often done with consideration towards
what is the most common kind of person that's going
to be coming into this society or organization. And then
all the organizational practices kind of form around that. And
(11:14):
then that means that we have lots of people who
are excluded who find it really challenging to be part
of that community, that organization, whatever it is. And that's
when we have those problems arise. And that's why we
need equity, diversity and inclusion so that we can make
change to those structures. And whether that's through policy strategies
(11:38):
or practice or a combination of all three of them.
And equity measures are a really important part of this.
And equity measures are about providing people with opportunities to
bring them up to a more equal playing field. So
it's not about providing additional things or special things. It's
(12:02):
about bringing everybody to the same point.
S3 (12:06):
Bringing all of that kind of thinking into any process
at the start of, you know, whether you're like looking at,
you know, university programs or, or building things, it really
delivers the best outcomes for everyone. It's the earliest it's
kind of considered you should really integrate it, rather than
it being some sort of like, oh no, we have
to now adapt something.
S2 (12:25):
Yeah, that's the ultimate aim. So that, you know, people
are thinking about this when they're starting to build projects and,
and design services and things like they're thinking about equity,
diversity and inclusion from the outset, because retrofitting is definitely
harder and really helping people to understand that equity, diversity
and inclusion is not just about helping people who are
(12:47):
marginalized to participate. It's about really strengthening the entire environment,
because when you have that diversity, you have diversity of
thought and experiences, and that really helps organizations do better
work and it helps them cater better for their diverse
customer base as well. So it's win win win for everybody.
S3 (13:10):
Yeah. And the idea of some sort of like one
size fits all like normal person, it is completely like
fictional anyway. It's not it's not accurate.
S2 (13:20):
Yes that's right.
S3 (13:22):
So thinking about your life as a dog guide handler,
how would you say that your life has changed since
being partnered with Quinny?
S2 (13:30):
Uh, well, when my, uh, previous guide, Sadie, um, started
to indicate that she would like to consider her retirement planning,
I also had a time where I had to step
back from physical activity because I had to have some
unexpected surgery. And the combination of those things, like her
starting to think about retirement and me being down for
(13:53):
a while really, I think was the path to her retirement.
So at that point, I wasn't doing a lot of
exercise and getting out as much as I would like to.
So when Queenie came along, it was a huge change
to my physical activity because I hadn't had it for
a little while. And we're only talking a few months, really,
(14:13):
and that sort of period where Sadie was finishing up.
So it was a very significant thing. And those first
few days of training, oh my God, my muscles.
S4 (14:22):
I'm not used to this.
S2 (14:23):
Yes, I think dog guide training gets a little bit
more challenging every time you do it. It's probably because
you get a little bit older every time.
S3 (14:30):
The idea, I guess as well, of going from a
slightly older dog to a, you know, I mean essentially
almost a puppy, really. You know, I know, I know,
they're like adults ish, but I assume Quinny is, you know,
was probably close to two or under two and kind
of a bit more sprightly than potentially Sadie was feeling
at that time.
S2 (14:47):
Yes, yes, she was 19 months and very much full
of energy.
S3 (14:51):
I feel like some of the kind of benefits of
the exercise probably took a little bit of time for
you to really feel it. At first you feel like
you're just a bit sore and suffering, and then you
start to feel better about it.
S2 (15:02):
Yeah, Totally. And, you know, it's so freeing to be
able to move like that again and to have that
complete mobility back again and to realize that you can
do all of those things again that you were doing previously,
and you've got all the all the tools again in
order to do that.
S3 (15:21):
And is Miss Sadie now retired?
S2 (15:24):
She sure is. She's living with me and, um, she's
living it up. She is not jealous at all of
Queenie because she planned her whole retirement. So, um, she
she is totally up for this retired life.
S3 (15:39):
Legs up and, you know, resting. Is she enjoying having
a new friend? Are they. Did they get on?
S2 (15:46):
Yeah. I think she loves having an extra friend. Um,
I've actually got three dogs. Um, because I've got a
pet dog as well, so they are quite the little herd.
It's very cute.
S3 (15:58):
Is your pet dog a Labrador or a different dog?
S2 (16:01):
No, he's a whippet. it.
S3 (16:05):
So he probably weighs like half their weight and is
potentially the boss.
S2 (16:10):
Uh, yes. Actually, you are right on both counts. Yeah.
S3 (16:14):
It's always the small one. That's the. That's the boss.
S2 (16:18):
Yes.
S3 (16:20):
So what are some of your favorite things about Quincy?
S2 (16:23):
Oh, so many things. Uh, I absolutely love her. Um,
we've been together just under six months now, and, uh,
that seems so unbelievable. Feels like she's still really new
to me and really novel. But at the same time,
I feel like we've been working for ages. I love
how she is so precise about her work. Possibly the
(16:47):
most precise out of all of my dogs. Like, she
just does an excellent job with all of her targeting
and very excellent tension in that harness. It really shows
me exactly where we're going. And that gives me a
really high level of trust in her. She's also a
very cute and quirky character. She's very in tune with emotions,
(17:08):
which is a lovely thing to observe in the dog
that you spend all your time with.
S3 (17:15):
It's nice when they kind of care about you, I suppose.
S2 (17:17):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
S3 (17:19):
What's a typical day or a week in your life together?
S2 (17:22):
A typical week involves quite a lot of different things,
so some days I'll be heading out to work. I
use a lot of public transport, and if I'm on campus,
we often roam around the campus a bit, which is
a fabulous part of working at a university. You get
lots of exercise because you might have a meeting on
(17:45):
the other side of campus, and sometimes I need to
go to other campuses, so that might involve, um, other
public transport or sometimes a train journey to get to
one further away. Um, we do a lot of walking
when we're not at work, and I move to a
new area just a couple of weeks after I got quinny.
(18:07):
I like to throw my dogs in the deep end.
S3 (18:09):
Yeah, I was like, wow.
S5 (18:12):
So yeah. Yeah, um.
S2 (18:16):
Seem to make a bit of a trend out of it.
Three out of my four dogs all leapt into some
massive life transition with me. Brilliant.
S5 (18:24):
Um.
S2 (18:25):
So she needed to, you know, do all the exploring
with me. Um, as I'm learning this new area and
finding out all the new and different ways that we
can get around, and that's been so much fun. And
I just really love getting out with her, whether that's
fitness or social activities. Yeah, we do all sorts of
(18:45):
random things. We, um, did our first park run not
too long ago. Um, I've done park runs for quite
a few years with Sadie, but this was Quinney's first
and she did wonderfully. And we also tried bush walking, um,
earlier this month with the support of my Seeing Eye
dog instructor, which was incredible.
S3 (19:07):
Is that something that you've done with another with any
other dogs?
S5 (19:11):
Yes.
S2 (19:12):
I discovered that I really loved bushwalking with Sadie, and
it was kind of by accident because I, I went
on a tour with two other blind friends in Tasmania, um,
who were also dog handlers, and they showed me how
amazing it was to hike with a dog, because when
(19:34):
you're prepared to really get the most out of that
partnership and really listen to what your dog's telling you
about small things in the environment, it's so enjoyable. And
I just completely fell in love with with hiking. And
it was something that I never thought I would like
because I hated it with a cane. And so I,
(19:55):
you know, hadn't hadn't tried it until that experience.
S3 (19:59):
I can imagine with a cane things like, you know,
tree Tree roots or, you know, any sort of kind
of like paths that are not flat. It would be
a bit clunky.
S5 (20:09):
Yeah.
S2 (20:10):
Something about a cane. It just never makes me feel
as fulfilled as working with a dog. Quite. Stop and start.
And I just feel like I can fly with a dog.
S3 (20:22):
The best thing about it, I guess, is like, you've
got all of that flexibility to do those things that
you want to do, which for some people with a cane,
I'm sure. Brilliant. Um, yeah. But maybe not for you.
S5 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah, I think.
S2 (20:33):
I'm definitely a dog person. I think that's established.
S3 (20:37):
And you know what? There's always going to be a dog.
There's always going to be a lovely seeing eye dogs
who are kind of able to enjoy that type of lifestyle.
If there are canes for other people. Great.
S5 (20:49):
Yes.
S3 (20:52):
Do you have any particular memories or stories about your
time with Quinny that you would like to share?
S2 (20:57):
Yeah, I think my favourite so far was, um, graduating
my PhD with Quinny. Um, a month after I received Quinny,
I was graduating my PhD, and, um, it was a
little bit sad because Sadie, my guide dog, saw me
through the whole degree. But, you know, as we've talked about,
(21:18):
Sadie was very determined that she was retiring, and I
didn't think she'd enjoy coming to a graduation even if
she was, um, still working at that point. Um, so
Quinny went as her proxy, and it was one of
those wonderful moments where I feel so grateful for having
(21:39):
this dog, because, I mean, I feel grateful all the time,
but especially so because I'm able to have this degree
of independence that I really want. And we headed off
to University of Sydney, uh, for that face to face graduation. Um,
and obviously it was a moment that I'd been looking
forward to for a really long time. And, um, it
(22:01):
was a really important moment to me to be able
to do this independently as well, to walk across the
stage and receive my degree. Um, and I got there
nice and early that morning, and I found the, um,
staff who were working on graduation, and I asked them
to give me a little bit of time to orientate
(22:23):
me to the stage and help Queenie and I learn, um,
the way up the stairs and across the stage and
back down again. I asked them to tell me which
way to look at the right times and, um, you
know where the Chancellor would be. All of these little
details that you need to know and, um, all of
(22:43):
that little, all of that preparation meant that me and
Queenie could walk across the stage together and I could
receive my degree, and it went, um, flawlessly. And I
was so proud of her because she did so beautifully. Um, and, like,
she'd been working for, you know, eight years. So, um. Yeah,
she really made it a special day for me.
S3 (23:06):
Even if she didn't actually do any of the work herself.
S2 (23:09):
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. My, um, previous dog, um, sat
through the whole whole degree with me and took me to,
you know, all the different things I needed to go
to and did my field work with me. But I
think Sadie would be pretty happy, um, with Queenie being
her proxy.
S3 (23:28):
Well, congrats on the PhD. I didn't realize how recent
that was.
S2 (23:31):
Yeah. Thank you.
S3 (23:33):
How how long did it take you to actually, um,
complete the degree?
S2 (23:38):
Um, it took me six years because I, uh, did
the PhD part time, and I worked the whole way throughout.
I didn't want to stop working. Wow. And I was
also nervous about stopping working because as a disabled person,
I feared that if I stepped away from the workforce,
I'd find it hard to get back in. So, you know,
(24:01):
partly necessity and partly wanting to stay in my field. Um,
and it worked really well. It was a really nice, um,
sort of mixture of things to do because it can
be pretty challenging doing nothing but a PhD or 3
or 4 years. So if you've got other things to,
(24:21):
you know, add variety to your life at the same time,
that can be really wonderful.
S3 (24:26):
And probably having, um, Sadie through that was probably quite
good to kind of get you out and walking and
out of your, um, uh, study head sometimes.
S2 (24:35):
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
S3 (24:38):
So just to finish off, are there any messages that
you would like to share with, you know, the general public, uh,
who are listening volunteers or supporters of seeing eye dogs
or other handlers?
S2 (24:49):
Um, well, I can think of three different things.
S3 (24:55):
I also gave you a lot of audiences.
S2 (24:58):
Yes. Um. Firstly. Leslie. Humongous. Thanks to everyone at Seeing
Eye Dogs who help raise and train our wonderful dogs. Um,
so blown away by what a wonderful network seeing eye
dogs is. Um, and very thankful to her puppy carer, uh,
(25:20):
Queenie's puppy carer. And, um. Yeah, very, very thankful indeed. Um,
my second message would be for other handlers. Um, and
that would be if you're prepared to get the most
out of a dog guide partnership and, um, really work
(25:41):
with that dog to get it doing all the wonderful
things that you want to do in life. The partnership
is going to be so rewarding in so many ways. Um,
and it's just up to us as handlers to do
that part of the partnership and, and make it happen.
(26:03):
And the third thing would be a very topical thing. Um,
for anybody with pet dogs to please make sure that
these dogs are controlled and on lead. Um, because it's
so frightening and it's the single most damaging thing to
(26:25):
a dog guide partnership when dog attacks happen. And the
reason I'm talking about this right now is because literally yesterday,
me and my three dogs were pursued by an off
lead dog and very terrifying. Um, and it's completely unnecessary.
We all need to just take more care and make
(26:45):
sure that those situations do not arise.
S3 (26:50):
Yeah. Well, I'm sorry that happened to you. And I
hope you and the dogs are okay now.
S2 (26:54):
Yes, we're all good. Thankfully, we we got away.
S3 (26:57):
But, yeah, it's, um, it's a timely reminder. And, you know,
just because you think that you can trust your dog
doesn't mean that you should.
S2 (27:05):
Yes. That's right.
S3 (27:08):
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show
and sharing your story with me today.
S2 (27:13):
Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure.
S3 (27:21):
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show on
Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with
Seeing eye dog handler Doctor Katy Butler. If you'd like
to find out more about seeing Eye Dogs, the work
we do, or how you can help, head to our
website at. If you're blind or have low vision and
are interested in learning about becoming a handler, you can email.
Seeing eye dogs at info at. Or give us a
(27:44):
ring on 1800Â 037Â 773 to chat about dog guard mobility eligibility
or assessment. Thank you for listening to the Seeing Eye
Dog show, and don't forget to tune in same time
next week for another episode of the show.
On Israeli radio. You're listening to the synagogue show with me,
your host, Eric Moffat. Today I'm joined by King Ottokar's handler,
Doctor Katie Butler, who's going to join us on the
show to chat about her life, her story, and her
partnership with Quinny, as well as a bit about her
research and her work in diversity, equity and inclusion. There's
lots to cover on this interesting interview, so I hope
(00:32):
you enjoy and thank you for listening. Hello, doctor. Katie,
how are you?
S2 (00:43):
I'm great. Thanks, Harriet. How are you?
S3 (00:45):
Good. Welcome to the show.
S2 (00:47):
Thank you. Great to be here.
S3 (00:49):
So we'd love if you're happy to start off by
introducing yourself.
S2 (00:53):
I'd love to. Uh, so I am an academic, and
I work in higher education, and I currently do a
position in equity. diversity and inclusion, which refers to making
sure that our staff and students have equitable opportunities to
(01:14):
do their best at university, either as staff or students.
S3 (01:19):
What does that constitute in terms of your role and
work that you've done?
S2 (01:24):
The role involves a lot of strategic planning and policy development,
and a lot of direct engagement in terms of training
and awareness raising.
S3 (01:37):
Could you please introduce your Seeing Eye dog?
S2 (01:39):
Sure, Ken. I was matched with Quinny late last year
and we started training in November last year. And she's
a black Labrador cross golden retriever, and she's absolutely gorgeous.
She's my fourth dog guide, but my first seeing eye dog.
S3 (01:58):
And how have you found the support from Seeing Eye
Dog so far?
S2 (02:02):
Um, I absolutely love seeing eye dogs. I found from
the very first moment when I inquired about receiving a
dog from seeing eye dogs, that the support was exemplary.
Communication was awesome. Heaps of transparency around matching and applying
(02:22):
for a dog, and lots of support with the actual
process of getting that dog to me. And the training
was wonderful and the follow ups being wonderful as well,
so I couldn't praise seeing eye dogs highly enough.
S3 (02:38):
Not just talking about seeing eye dogs here, but what
made you decide to apply for your first dog guide
and or continue being a dog handler?
S2 (02:45):
Uh, so I have very early memories in childhood of
wanting to have a dog guide, and that dream came
true for me when I was 17, and I received
my first dog, Ari, um, who was a guide dog. Yeah,
he completely changed my life. It was a fantastic time
(03:08):
for me to get a dog because, you know, being
on that cusp of adulthood, I'm stepping out and doing
lots of different new things in life. And he was
able to accompany me. And, you know, while I'm growing
and developing in confidence, he was there along for the ride,
and I wasn't held back because I couldn't get out
(03:29):
and do things. So absolutely life changing. And each of
my dogs has sort of followed that legacy and helped
me maintain that independence and that ability to explore and
adventure and just do whatever I want and need to do.
S3 (03:47):
Getting one, kind of like you said, 17 the cusp
of adulthood is fascinating and pivotal time in your life
in general. You're seeking all of the independence would be
really hard to step out of your comfort zone into
adulthood without, you know, feeling like the most confidence in
your own mobility.
S2 (04:03):
Absolutely. He was like me getting my first car, basically
being able to go everywhere I wanted and needed to
go because I had him.
S3 (04:16):
And I think probably going into your different life stages now,
I'm sure that Quinny is probably a very different type
of dog. Is that something that you found?
S2 (04:24):
Each of them seem to suit a particular time in life.
And yeah, Quinny is Quinn. He's a different dog. And
my dog before her, Sadie was completely different again. And yeah,
they they all bring something completely special to different parts
of my life.
S3 (04:45):
You've mentioned that you're an academic and I introduce you
as doctor. So you've done a PhD. Can you tell
us a bit about that and the type of research
that you've done on access and inclusion?
S2 (04:55):
Sure. So my PhD was all about looking at what
could help large organisations do disability inclusive planning and practice. Well.
So that involved a methodology which is known as action research,
which essentially means you go into an organization and you
(05:17):
actually actively working with that organization to help them bring
about change, but you're also researching it at the same time.
So it has a really practical implication. And it was
an amazing, positive experience because I really got to discover
what barriers were in their way, what helped them move
forward with this type of planning and practice, and also
(05:41):
helped them to strengthen their approach as well. So it
was a fascinating experience.
S3 (05:48):
And it's called, I guess, have really had that impact
on an organization and then help them hopefully lead the
way or, you know, your research can help shape access
and inclusion for other organizations. Did you focus primarily on
blindness and low vision.
S2 (06:02):
Or no general disability. And now my focus is always
generally broader than Linus and low vision alone. But obviously
the blindness does impact my work quite significantly. It brings
a certain lens to the way that I conduct my
research and my practice. So there are often elements of
(06:26):
blindness that work their way into my research and my practice,
for sure.
S3 (06:33):
I would think that it would be kind of amazing
in so much to study in, in the kind of
scope of all disabilities, because, you know, there's no kind
of one size fits all to access or inclusion.
S2 (06:44):
Mhm. That's true. And that's almost the one thing that
everybody has in common is that we really need to
be thinking broadly about how we, we do inclusion and
how to make sure that everybody gets an equitable opportunity.
So even though it's the thing that makes us all
so different, it's also the thing that brings us all together,
(07:05):
and it helps us advocate for the same thing.
S3 (07:10):
How does your lived experience or, you know, even being
a dog guide handler inform? You know that work and
your previous study.
S2 (07:16):
Well, I knew very early on in my university studies
that I wanted to work in the disability field. And
that was most definitely influenced by my experience as a
blind person and encountering barriers to equal participation in society.
(07:37):
So mostly for me, those barriers were informational or communication
type barriers, and I just wanted to be able to
contribute and change that narrative so that people into the
future might not have to encounter those kind of difficulties.
And I do wonder sometimes what on earth I would
(07:57):
have done if I wasn't blind. It's an interesting thing
to think about.
S3 (08:03):
Even being blind. If you had an alternate, what would
it be? You know.
S2 (08:08):
Mhm. Um, well I think, uh, possibly something to do
with dogs. Yeah. Um, for sure. Because they're definitely, um,
you know, very important to me. So I feel like
dogs might have well featured in my career if I
wasn't blind.
S3 (08:24):
Okay. So really, you know, being able to take the
dog to work with you or, you know, that being
kind of part of your life fills that criteria as well,
to some degree.
S2 (08:33):
Absolutely. Yeah. Best of both worlds, right.
S3 (08:36):
Oh, just thinking about the kind of work and moving
forward with equal participation, especially in kind of those, you know,
study areas. It blows my mind a little bit how
much things must have changed in the last like, you know, ten,
20 years, just even with technology that can be utilized
for accessibility. Um, I can imagine studying would have been very,
very different 20 years ago.
S2 (08:57):
Yeah. Well, when I did my undergraduate degree, I started
in 2010. Things were so different. We still relied a
lot on paper readers, so I remember going and picking
up volumes of articles and things that I'd need to
get converted so that I could read them. And these days,
you just don't have the same challenge because so much
(09:20):
is available digitally. You can read journal articles directly online. Um,
when I used to have to convert them all manually,
and our optical character recognition software that sits within a
screen reader these days is so advanced as well that
the same barriers that existed with, um, image based text
(09:44):
also aren't as significant, because the software can pull that
text out and read it much more efficiently. So hugely
life changing.
S3 (09:53):
Really encouraging, I guess, for people that are thinking about
getting into study or learning more. You know, there's lots
of opportunities that there, you know, may not have been earlier.
S2 (10:02):
Yeah, it certainly does take some time to really get
good with this kind of technology to get the best
out of it. Like, it's not a quick and easy
thing to learn a screen reader so that you can
get the best out of it. But once you do,
you know the world really is at your fingertips.
S3 (10:19):
So what do you think that the general public should
know about diversity, equity and inclusion?
S2 (10:24):
Oh great question. So equity, diversity and inclusion is all
about equaling the playing field. And it's about making sure
that everybody has the opportunity to participate and contribute meaningfully
and feel like they belong in their own communities and
their own workplaces. And the reason why we need equity,
(10:51):
diversity and inclusion is because when societies, organizations and institutions
are set up, they are often done with consideration towards
what is the most common kind of person that's going
to be coming into this society or organization. And then
all the organizational practices kind of form around that. And
(11:14):
then that means that we have lots of people who
are excluded who find it really challenging to be part
of that community, that organization, whatever it is. And that's
when we have those problems arise. And that's why we
need equity, diversity and inclusion so that we can make
change to those structures. And whether that's through policy strategies
(11:38):
or practice or a combination of all three of them.
And equity measures are a really important part of this.
And equity measures are about providing people with opportunities to
bring them up to a more equal playing field. So
it's not about providing additional things or special things. It's
(12:02):
about bringing everybody to the same point.
S3 (12:06):
Bringing all of that kind of thinking into any process
at the start of, you know, whether you're like looking at,
you know, university programs or, or building things, it really
delivers the best outcomes for everyone. It's the earliest it's
kind of considered you should really integrate it, rather than
it being some sort of like, oh no, we have
to now adapt something.
S2 (12:25):
Yeah, that's the ultimate aim. So that, you know, people
are thinking about this when they're starting to build projects and,
and design services and things like they're thinking about equity,
diversity and inclusion from the outset, because retrofitting is definitely
harder and really helping people to understand that equity, diversity
and inclusion is not just about helping people who are
(12:47):
marginalized to participate. It's about really strengthening the entire environment,
because when you have that diversity, you have diversity of
thought and experiences, and that really helps organizations do better
work and it helps them cater better for their diverse
customer base as well. So it's win win win for everybody.
S3 (13:10):
Yeah. And the idea of some sort of like one
size fits all like normal person, it is completely like
fictional anyway. It's not it's not accurate.
S2 (13:20):
Yes that's right.
S3 (13:22):
So thinking about your life as a dog guide handler,
how would you say that your life has changed since
being partnered with Quinny?
S2 (13:30):
Uh, well, when my, uh, previous guide, Sadie, um, started
to indicate that she would like to consider her retirement planning,
I also had a time where I had to step
back from physical activity because I had to have some
unexpected surgery. And the combination of those things, like her
starting to think about retirement and me being down for
(13:53):
a while really, I think was the path to her retirement.
So at that point, I wasn't doing a lot of
exercise and getting out as much as I would like to.
So when Queenie came along, it was a huge change
to my physical activity because I hadn't had it for
a little while. And we're only talking a few months, really,
(14:13):
and that sort of period where Sadie was finishing up.
So it was a very significant thing. And those first
few days of training, oh my God, my muscles.
S4 (14:22):
I'm not used to this.
S2 (14:23):
Yes, I think dog guide training gets a little bit
more challenging every time you do it. It's probably because
you get a little bit older every time.
S3 (14:30):
The idea, I guess as well, of going from a
slightly older dog to a, you know, I mean essentially
almost a puppy, really. You know, I know, I know,
they're like adults ish, but I assume Quinny is, you know,
was probably close to two or under two and kind
of a bit more sprightly than potentially Sadie was feeling
at that time.
S2 (14:47):
Yes, yes, she was 19 months and very much full
of energy.
S3 (14:51):
I feel like some of the kind of benefits of
the exercise probably took a little bit of time for
you to really feel it. At first you feel like
you're just a bit sore and suffering, and then you
start to feel better about it.
S2 (15:02):
Yeah, Totally. And, you know, it's so freeing to be
able to move like that again and to have that
complete mobility back again and to realize that you can
do all of those things again that you were doing previously,
and you've got all the all the tools again in
order to do that.
S3 (15:21):
And is Miss Sadie now retired?
S2 (15:24):
She sure is. She's living with me and, um, she's
living it up. She is not jealous at all of
Queenie because she planned her whole retirement. So, um, she
she is totally up for this retired life.
S3 (15:39):
Legs up and, you know, resting. Is she enjoying having
a new friend? Are they. Did they get on?
S2 (15:46):
Yeah. I think she loves having an extra friend. Um,
I've actually got three dogs. Um, because I've got a
pet dog as well, so they are quite the little herd.
It's very cute.
S3 (15:58):
Is your pet dog a Labrador or a different dog?
S2 (16:01):
No, he's a whippet. it.
S3 (16:05):
So he probably weighs like half their weight and is
potentially the boss.
S2 (16:10):
Uh, yes. Actually, you are right on both counts. Yeah.
S3 (16:14):
It's always the small one. That's the. That's the boss.
S2 (16:18):
Yes.
S3 (16:20):
So what are some of your favorite things about Quincy?
S2 (16:23):
Oh, so many things. Uh, I absolutely love her. Um,
we've been together just under six months now, and, uh,
that seems so unbelievable. Feels like she's still really new
to me and really novel. But at the same time,
I feel like we've been working for ages. I love
how she is so precise about her work. Possibly the
(16:47):
most precise out of all of my dogs. Like, she
just does an excellent job with all of her targeting
and very excellent tension in that harness. It really shows
me exactly where we're going. And that gives me a
really high level of trust in her. She's also a
very cute and quirky character. She's very in tune with emotions,
(17:08):
which is a lovely thing to observe in the dog
that you spend all your time with.
S3 (17:15):
It's nice when they kind of care about you, I suppose.
S2 (17:17):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
S3 (17:19):
What's a typical day or a week in your life together?
S2 (17:22):
A typical week involves quite a lot of different things,
so some days I'll be heading out to work. I
use a lot of public transport, and if I'm on campus,
we often roam around the campus a bit, which is
a fabulous part of working at a university. You get
lots of exercise because you might have a meeting on
(17:45):
the other side of campus, and sometimes I need to
go to other campuses, so that might involve, um, other
public transport or sometimes a train journey to get to
one further away. Um, we do a lot of walking
when we're not at work, and I move to a
new area just a couple of weeks after I got quinny.
(18:07):
I like to throw my dogs in the deep end.
S3 (18:09):
Yeah, I was like, wow.
S5 (18:12):
So yeah. Yeah, um.
S2 (18:16):
Seem to make a bit of a trend out of it.
Three out of my four dogs all leapt into some
massive life transition with me. Brilliant.
S5 (18:24):
Um.
S2 (18:25):
So she needed to, you know, do all the exploring
with me. Um, as I'm learning this new area and
finding out all the new and different ways that we
can get around, and that's been so much fun. And
I just really love getting out with her, whether that's
fitness or social activities. Yeah, we do all sorts of
(18:45):
random things. We, um, did our first park run not
too long ago. Um, I've done park runs for quite
a few years with Sadie, but this was Quinney's first
and she did wonderfully. And we also tried bush walking, um,
earlier this month with the support of my Seeing Eye
dog instructor, which was incredible.
S3 (19:07):
Is that something that you've done with another with any
other dogs?
S5 (19:11):
Yes.
S2 (19:12):
I discovered that I really loved bushwalking with Sadie, and
it was kind of by accident because I, I went
on a tour with two other blind friends in Tasmania, um,
who were also dog handlers, and they showed me how
amazing it was to hike with a dog, because when
(19:34):
you're prepared to really get the most out of that
partnership and really listen to what your dog's telling you
about small things in the environment, it's so enjoyable. And
I just completely fell in love with with hiking. And
it was something that I never thought I would like
because I hated it with a cane. And so I,
(19:55):
you know, hadn't hadn't tried it until that experience.
S3 (19:59):
I can imagine with a cane things like, you know,
tree Tree roots or, you know, any sort of kind
of like paths that are not flat. It would be
a bit clunky.
S5 (20:09):
Yeah.
S2 (20:10):
Something about a cane. It just never makes me feel
as fulfilled as working with a dog. Quite. Stop and start.
And I just feel like I can fly with a dog.
S3 (20:22):
The best thing about it, I guess, is like, you've
got all of that flexibility to do those things that
you want to do, which for some people with a cane,
I'm sure. Brilliant. Um, yeah. But maybe not for you.
S5 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah, I think.
S2 (20:33):
I'm definitely a dog person. I think that's established.
S3 (20:37):
And you know what? There's always going to be a dog.
There's always going to be a lovely seeing eye dogs
who are kind of able to enjoy that type of lifestyle.
If there are canes for other people. Great.
S5 (20:49):
Yes.
S3 (20:52):
Do you have any particular memories or stories about your
time with Quinny that you would like to share?
S2 (20:57):
Yeah, I think my favourite so far was, um, graduating
my PhD with Quinny. Um, a month after I received Quinny,
I was graduating my PhD, and, um, it was a
little bit sad because Sadie, my guide dog, saw me
through the whole degree. But, you know, as we've talked about,
(21:18):
Sadie was very determined that she was retiring, and I
didn't think she'd enjoy coming to a graduation even if
she was, um, still working at that point. Um, so
Quinny went as her proxy, and it was one of
those wonderful moments where I feel so grateful for having
(21:39):
this dog, because, I mean, I feel grateful all the time,
but especially so because I'm able to have this degree
of independence that I really want. And we headed off
to University of Sydney, uh, for that face to face graduation. Um,
and obviously it was a moment that I'd been looking
forward to for a really long time. And, um, it
(22:01):
was a really important moment to me to be able
to do this independently as well, to walk across the
stage and receive my degree. Um, and I got there
nice and early that morning, and I found the, um,
staff who were working on graduation, and I asked them
to give me a little bit of time to orientate
(22:23):
me to the stage and help Queenie and I learn, um,
the way up the stairs and across the stage and
back down again. I asked them to tell me which
way to look at the right times and, um, you
know where the Chancellor would be. All of these little
details that you need to know and, um, all of
(22:43):
that little, all of that preparation meant that me and
Queenie could walk across the stage together and I could
receive my degree, and it went, um, flawlessly. And I
was so proud of her because she did so beautifully. Um, and, like,
she'd been working for, you know, eight years. So, um. Yeah,
she really made it a special day for me.
S3 (23:06):
Even if she didn't actually do any of the work herself.
S2 (23:09):
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. My, um, previous dog, um, sat
through the whole whole degree with me and took me to,
you know, all the different things I needed to go
to and did my field work with me. But I
think Sadie would be pretty happy, um, with Queenie being
her proxy.
S3 (23:28):
Well, congrats on the PhD. I didn't realize how recent
that was.
S2 (23:31):
Yeah. Thank you.
S3 (23:33):
How how long did it take you to actually, um,
complete the degree?
S2 (23:38):
Um, it took me six years because I, uh, did
the PhD part time, and I worked the whole way throughout.
I didn't want to stop working. Wow. And I was
also nervous about stopping working because as a disabled person,
I feared that if I stepped away from the workforce,
I'd find it hard to get back in. So, you know,
(24:01):
partly necessity and partly wanting to stay in my field. Um,
and it worked really well. It was a really nice, um,
sort of mixture of things to do because it can
be pretty challenging doing nothing but a PhD or 3
or 4 years. So if you've got other things to,
(24:21):
you know, add variety to your life at the same time,
that can be really wonderful.
S3 (24:26):
And probably having, um, Sadie through that was probably quite
good to kind of get you out and walking and
out of your, um, uh, study head sometimes.
S2 (24:35):
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
S3 (24:38):
So just to finish off, are there any messages that
you would like to share with, you know, the general public, uh,
who are listening volunteers or supporters of seeing eye dogs
or other handlers?
S2 (24:49):
Um, well, I can think of three different things.
S3 (24:55):
I also gave you a lot of audiences.
S2 (24:58):
Yes. Um. Firstly. Leslie. Humongous. Thanks to everyone at Seeing
Eye Dogs who help raise and train our wonderful dogs. Um,
so blown away by what a wonderful network seeing eye
dogs is. Um, and very thankful to her puppy carer, uh,
(25:20):
Queenie's puppy carer. And, um. Yeah, very, very thankful indeed. Um,
my second message would be for other handlers. Um, and
that would be if you're prepared to get the most
out of a dog guide partnership and, um, really work
(25:41):
with that dog to get it doing all the wonderful
things that you want to do in life. The partnership
is going to be so rewarding in so many ways. Um,
and it's just up to us as handlers to do
that part of the partnership and, and make it happen.
(26:03):
And the third thing would be a very topical thing. Um,
for anybody with pet dogs to please make sure that
these dogs are controlled and on lead. Um, because it's
so frightening and it's the single most damaging thing to
(26:25):
a dog guide partnership when dog attacks happen. And the
reason I'm talking about this right now is because literally yesterday,
me and my three dogs were pursued by an off
lead dog and very terrifying. Um, and it's completely unnecessary.
We all need to just take more care and make
(26:45):
sure that those situations do not arise.
S3 (26:50):
Yeah. Well, I'm sorry that happened to you. And I
hope you and the dogs are okay now.
S2 (26:54):
Yes, we're all good. Thankfully, we we got away.
S3 (26:57):
But, yeah, it's, um, it's a timely reminder. And, you know,
just because you think that you can trust your dog
doesn't mean that you should.
S2 (27:05):
Yes. That's right.
S3 (27:08):
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show
and sharing your story with me today.
S2 (27:13):
Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure.
S3 (27:21):
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show on
Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with
Seeing eye dog handler Doctor Katy Butler. If you'd like
to find out more about seeing Eye Dogs, the work
we do, or how you can help, head to our
website at. If you're blind or have low vision and
are interested in learning about becoming a handler, you can email.
Seeing eye dogs at info at. Or give us a
(27:44):
ring on 1800Â 037Â 773 to chat about dog guard mobility eligibility
or assessment. Thank you for listening to the Seeing Eye
Dog show, and don't forget to tune in same time
next week for another episode of the show.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.