July 4, 2025 • 28 mins
Training program manager Kylie Gersh joins Harriet to talk about dog distraction and managing your Seeing Eye Dog or dog guide around other dogs. We then play part of the interview with Kylie about solving problem behaviours.
If you're blind or have low vision and are interested in becoming a handler or applying for a Seeing Eye Dog, please email us at info@sed.org.au or call on 1800 037 773 to discuss dog guide mobility, eligibility or assessment.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:19):
On Vision Australia radio. You're listening to the Seeing Eye
Dog show with me, your host, Harriet Moffatt. Today I'm
joined by training program manager and instructor Kylie Gersh for
some dog handling and training tips for managing dog distraction.
She's going to give some tips and tools to work
with your dog around other dogs, and look at some
of the causes of increased dog distraction. Then I'm going
(00:40):
to play a part of our interview for problem solving Behaviours.
To tie in with this one, we've got lots of
tips for dog handlers and other dog guardians that I
hope you'll find helpful. So let's get into it. Hi Kylie,
thanks for joining me on the show today.
S2 (01:01):
Hi, how are you? How are you doing?
S1 (01:02):
Good. How are you?
S2 (01:04):
Good.
S1 (01:05):
Could you please start off by introducing yourself again?
S2 (01:08):
Um, my name is Kylie Gersh, and I'm the training
program manager here at Seeing Eye Dogs. Um, and I
support the team of trainers and instructors who work mainly
out of our site in Kensington, um, who are training
our lovely seeing eye dogs to be placed with clients.
S1 (01:25):
And you also have a bit of experience, I can
say a bit of, I mean, a pretty considerable one
of experience as an instructor yourself.
S2 (01:31):
Uh, yes. Yeah, I was an instructor up until very,
very recently, and I still, um, from time to time,
go out and see our great seeing eye dog teams
out in the field. Um, so, yeah, still do that
from time to time.
S1 (01:44):
I just think it's relevant to know that when you're
giving advice, it's really good advice, you know? But a
bit of, um, expert in the field here, Kylie, don't
undersell yourself as just a manager.
S2 (01:55):
And, um, I forgot to say, too, that I also, um,
support the program to train new trainers and seeing eye
dog trainers and instructors, as well as my supporting the
qualified staff.
S1 (02:08):
Yeah, I feel I.
S2 (02:09):
Always forget that.
S1 (02:10):
I feel like that's a lot of, um, strings to
your bow that that are relevant when we're talking about
advice that you can give to people. So we're going
to talk about some of the tips that we can
give to panhandlers about dog distraction. I assume that dog
distraction is one of those issues that we're always facing
working in this industry, because whether it's not your dog,
it's someone else's dog. Is that right? Do you think
(02:32):
that dog distraction is always going to be an issue
for us?
S2 (02:36):
Look, it is it's always something. It's one of our
main reason why our dogs don't make it in the
first place is their interest towards other dogs. So I
think it's, um, a challenging, um, overall, but I think
it is something that comes up from time to time. Um,
(02:56):
because as we know, behavior changes. So something might have
even though a person's dog may have just a little
bit of dog interest or may not have had that
much in training, that if there's circumstances or situations that
happen out and about when handlers are going about their
day to day lives. That happens um, that sometimes then, um,
(03:18):
their interest towards dogs fluctuates or changes and can increase, um,
generally not decrease. But, um, we're happy when we hear
that's that situation. But yes, it's all always something that
I think, or a common, um, issue or concern that
people talk to us regularly about. Yeah.
S1 (03:39):
So for anyone that's not aware what might what kind
of what are the sorts of behaviours that we might
describe as either dog, you know, being related to dog
distraction or, you know, how might dog distraction present a dog?
S2 (03:52):
I think for handlers, the main thing of concern is
when the dog loses focus isn't in is, um, not
able to continue their guiding role, or if they give them, um,
the next cue or information that they're not responding to
what the handlers input. So often that's when we will
(04:13):
get called or asked for support is when the dog
isn't responding anymore to what the handler has been previously
been doing, or when maybe the interest towards other dogs.
So you mentioned about behavior. Um, Harriet. So some things
that I think often people will describe is maybe the
dog pulling towards other dogs. Maybe the dogs started to
(04:35):
do some vocalizing to other dogs, maybe the dog, um,
had an incident with another dog. Um, and the dog's
now concerned or stopping and staring at other dogs and
they're harder to, to keep going.
S1 (04:48):
And so I guess when it comes to those types
of things, that's kind of why it might change a
bit too, because like you said, there might be a
bit of an incident and maybe how you address it
might depend on how it's popped up.
S2 (05:00):
Yeah. And I think, um, knowing your dog, asking lots
of questions when you're initially placed with your dog and
you would know, um, I guess, what type of or
their general sponsors around other dogs, dog might need some
verbal input, which is pretty common. Look, we say that
dogs moving through the environment, even though they're seeing eye
(05:20):
dogs and should remain focused, they're still dogs at the
end of the day. And just like us, we do
attend to things in the environment. So if there's a
barking dog that is barking quite aggressively at a at
a seeing eye dog moving through or going trying to
get past, of course the seeing eye dog is going
to look because that is natural for them. They are
(05:41):
in survival mode. You know, they need to to do
that to, to to pay attention. But it's more I
think when dogs are overly interested or not, you're not
able to gain their attention quickly back on task. Um,
that then it becomes more of a concern for people.
S1 (05:58):
Yeah. And I guess even just like if the if
the other dog that they're particularly interested in, distracted or
distracted by is sitting there doing nothing, that's potentially something
that is slightly more problematic than if it's, um, only
the more intense of the, um, interactions.
S2 (06:15):
Yeah, yeah. And look, I think if you're, um, if
somebody's starting to notice that their dog's behavior changes, you know,
they might have only needed to give them some verbal input.
And the dog, you know, the dog was looking and
verbal input and that's usual, usual for that dog. And
then all of a sudden they're showing some more interest.
I'd encourage people to first of all just think about um,
(06:37):
is has there been an incident. Has there been something
like an aggressive dog barking at them, or has there
been some situation that's changed or has some their their
environment changed? So are they going through like now there
might be going a different way to work, and they're
now going through an environment where there's lots of off
(06:58):
leash dogs, which is one of the hardest situations for
a seeing eye dog to continue working through. Um, so
sometimes it can be the environments now that you're, you're
going through that's changed your dog's interest in other dogs. Um,
or it might be to how much they get to
interact with other dogs. So dogs are social creatures. They
(07:19):
love their handler and their family, their people, but they
also like usually playing with other dogs. That's varies on individual.
Some like playing with dogs and some don't mind. You know,
they don't actually care for that so much. So sometimes
it might be that, um, maybe they're not getting as
much opportunity to have a friend or two that they
(07:40):
get to have that playtime. And so now they're seeking
out dogs on the street because they haven't got that
need met of playing with other dogs. Or it might
be that actually now you regularly run them with other
dogs and they're doing that a lot. And so that
they actually, um, are starting to think, oh, this is
pretty good. I'm just going to go and be super
social butterfly and say hello to every other dog. So
(08:03):
it really is individual on that. But sometimes it's either
there that need not being met or maybe it's being
too much. They're, they're um able. Yeah. Too friendly with
other dogs.
S1 (08:15):
I guess for a seeing eye dog or a dog
guide would. The best way of starting to think about
that would be like reflecting and then talking to your staff,
you know, how do you, um, I guess, how do
you start kind of addressing these things or, or even
like if you're not using your staff, you know, how
are you starting to think about this and getting it better?
S2 (08:35):
I would think about how, first of all, when did
it start happening? If there was a change, when did
that change happen? Was there stuff that was occurring? I'd
start thinking about what my dog is actually doing. So what?
Always describing the behavior the best you can, um, is
helpful because if you're getting support from an instructor that
helps us to understand what's happening and advise and provide
(08:58):
you the best advice. Um, the other thing is, what
am I doing? So what am I doing? Sometimes it
might be did I used to give a bit of
food reward after dogs? And now actually I don't use
food that much and now I'm starting to see the
dogs choose to say hello to other dogs because they're
not actually getting something else rewarding for going past us.
(09:21):
So yeah, just having a think about that. Am I
giving verbal inputs, am I you needing to use the lead?
Is it all the time? Is it just once a week? Yeah.
How often that's happening. And what I'm doing is the
most helpful for us as instructors. Um, to, to be
able to have get that information. I'd always encourage people
(09:41):
to try some things if they've got tools that they've
used or handling. Um, try a couple of things if
to see if it works. Um, so if you're not
currently running your dog with other dogs and you've noticed
actually they're really trying to be friendly, say hello to
other dogs, pull to to interact, maybe try, um, to see,
(10:04):
you know, have I got a friend that has a
nice dog that I could take to their house, or
they could come to my house and we could give
them a little run on a, you know, or family
or friends, um, to see if actually that eliminate, you know,
they get that opportunity. So then they're less likely to
do it in work. Um, or maybe I remember I've
got that gentle leader or head collar, um, that I
(10:25):
got in training. I haven't used it or needed to
use it for a while. Do I need some management now?
Because that might help actually to manage the dog. So
always encourage people to, um, have a think. And if
there's some strategies that they're familiar with is, is try
some of those um, and then if it's not working,
just give us. Yeah, give us a call. Um, give
your seeing eye dog um instructor or contact person a
(10:47):
call and just check in with us and see if
we've got, you know, some thoughts around giving or advice that, um,
we can give sometimes it might be, or just ask
us to come out to, um, we can bring a
dog with us and do some setup situations for people
to practice some of those tools. So if you've tried
the tools that you know, it might be us actually
(11:10):
then supporting you to learn different tools, um, based on
what your dog is doing now. So maybe you didn't
need those tools or weren't familiar with those tools initially,
but maybe now there's some other tools that, um, you're
not aware of that we can then, um, show you
or teach you that you could try to see if
that works.
S1 (11:30):
But it's tools, you know, you're not just talking about
physical kind of equipment like your head collars and stuff,
are you? You're talking about like, training methods, strategies.
S2 (11:38):
Yeah. So whether it is, um, I always encourage, if
in doubt, as long as you're not in a road crossing, um,
then to stop address, um, what your dog is doing
now put usually putting them into a sit, getting their
focus back on you. It's one of the go to um,
strategies or tools. So yes, it's like any kind of
(11:59):
strategy or method I guess, in managing that situation. Um,
so it could mean physical tools like using a gentle
leader or maybe a different collar type, um, or head collar.
But it's generally when I say tools. Thanks, Harriet.
S1 (12:15):
It's more just in case.
S2 (12:16):
Yeah, it's more to do with, um, strategies or different
ways you can handle your dog. That might work to
regain their focus in the time, but then also either
reduce the their dog, their dog distraction or help you
manage it. Yeah.
S1 (12:34):
Uh, I don't know if this is like a coming from,
like a public hearing point of view, but do you,
would you encourage, like, you know, if you're talking about
food using like, higher value rewards and that type of stuff.
S2 (12:45):
You can try, um, higher value sometimes definitely works. Um,
can can do quite well. And the reason why, I guess,
behind that is that you want to find something that's
more reinforcing. So depends on what's happening. If they're finding, going,
saying hello to dog, that they can say hello to
the dog and they enjoy that interaction, it's probably likely
(13:07):
to keep going because they find that reinforcing. They like it. Um,
so high value. What it does is that you are
probably going to ask them to do something else instead
of saying hello. Maybe as soon as they start moving
towards a dog and you can feel that or um,
visualize that. Then you ask the dog to sit, and
(13:28):
when they sit and the focus is on you, you
give them something that means just as much to them
as saying hello to a dog. So probably for Labradors,
that's chicken or hot dog or something that's equally as good,
probably better or higher value than them going to say
hello to a to a dog. So sometimes that's a
(13:49):
way you can get their focus back on you, because
they can learn very quickly that I'm not going to
get to say hello to the dog, but that's okay,
because for sitting or for locating the curb, the next curb,
I'm going to get something that's really good. And I
like that just as much, or if not better, than
saying hello to other dogs. Um, and if they get
opportunities to play with other dogs at different times as well,
(14:13):
like a friend's dog or, you know, um, then they go, oh, yeah,
I've got I've got a chance to play with dogs
at other times. That's okay. You know, um, getting nice
food or hot dog at the curb is just as good.
S1 (14:25):
Yeah, I can, I can this is playtime. And then
this is the time where I get a hot dog.
A dog at a curb.
S2 (14:31):
Yes. I think one of the instructors up in Queensland,
I think he uses, um, like freeze dried chicken. So.
Or um. Yes. So that's pretty, pretty enticing to, to um,
reinforce behaviors we want. Yeah.
S1 (14:47):
And if you're a vegetarian you can always try carrots
as a first. Um, first.
S2 (14:51):
Yes. Parents is okay. I would have to say for
most dogs probably if they had the choice. And that's
what we're where we want them to choose to continue
guiding um, and working as opposed to going to say
hello to the to the dog. I'm not carrot might
not cut it if.
S1 (15:09):
I found carrots to be a great time.
S2 (15:12):
It depends on depends on.
S1 (15:13):
The.
S2 (15:13):
Dog. Oh, yeah, it does depend on the dog, but
it might not be enough.
S1 (15:17):
Yeah.
S2 (15:17):
Okay. Yeah. Um, no. Yeah. Look, normal kibble for a
lot of Labradors is fine. Pretty is pretty good. Um,
but again, it just depends. It depends on how much interest.
And we're talking about dogs that are wanting to play
with other dogs. Um, there is also some situations which
happens because we're teams are constantly moving through other dogs territories, um,
(15:41):
and in front of other dogs houses. And so sometimes
it can be that the seeing eye dog actually becomes
a little bit concerned, um, about having to do that,
because you could imagine if someone is hurling abuse at you, um,
like saying all these stuff to you, which is what
dogs do when they're barking your dog, you're probably not
(16:02):
going to feel that confident wanting to walk past that person.
Or you might be a little hesitant, so.
S1 (16:07):
Might not focus on your work quite as much if you're.
S2 (16:10):
Quite as much.
S1 (16:11):
Yeah, yeah.
S2 (16:12):
So in those times, it times, it might be more
that you're needing to support your dog through that situation
by using your voice and your lead, and then letting
them know that you know it's okay. It's it's fine.
You can keep going. Yeah.
S1 (16:27):
Is there anything else that you would like to kind
of cover? Um, about the topic of dog distraction today?
S2 (16:35):
I think the main things is that it's it is common.
It is, um, something that behavior fluctuates. Uh, so if
you're noticing an increase, um, just just reach out. That's
probably the main message. I would say just reach out
to chat, um, through it. Um, and we can always
pop out. Sometimes it can be a lot more challenging
(16:56):
to reduce it. Um, and particularly the more times the
dog has at interacting with the other dog, sometimes the
harder it is to reduce. There is situations where actually
we're not able to change the dog's behavior for whatever reason. Um,
so they can. Yeah, those situations can sometimes be challenging,
(17:17):
but we're always happy to work, um, with the person, um,
and their dog for however long you want us, um,
to be involved and what's going to be doable for
you for strategies. Um, and then, yeah, we can we
can always take it, take it from there.
S1 (17:33):
And I guess what you said, just kind of sooner
rather than later, is more going to be more effective.
More likely.
S2 (17:39):
Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I think the other main thing
is just, um, noticing when things change for your dog, um,
and when behavior changes and, and if you're noticing something escalating,
then just just reach out. We're always happy to have
a have a quick chat. Yeah.
S1 (17:54):
Well, thank you for coming on the show and providing
some tips and information about dog distraction.
S2 (17:59):
Anytime, Harriet. Always happy to have a chat with you.
And come on.
S1 (18:07):
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show on
Vision Australia Radio. That was Kylie Gersch training program manager
and instructor talking about dog distraction tips. Now Kylie is
back with part of a repeat of an episode about
problem behaviors and how to solve them. The rest of
that interview is available to podcast wherever you get your
Seeing Eye Dog Show podcast from. I hope you enjoy
(18:29):
this part of that interview on this show today. So
we're going to start and talk about some problem behaviors
or problem and problem solving behaviors. So I guess what
might someone describe as a problem behavior.
S2 (18:42):
I guess it's just behaviors. And when we're talking about
dogs in particular, it's behaviors that may impact us or
that is potentially annoying or something that we want the
dog usually to stop doing. So it's important to understand,
I guess, from a dog's perspective, that they're just behaving
in a way to control their outcomes. So they what
(19:04):
is if you ask what behavior is for? It's just that, um,
it allows any living species to gain something that's pleasurable.
So something that we want and we usually repeat those behaviors.
If it's something nice and we want to keep getting
that nice thing, or we generally try to avoid or
escape things that doesn't work for us or doesn't work well.
(19:26):
So when we think about problem behaviors, um, it's important
also to think about it from the the other animals perspective.
So in this case, the dogs that they're just doing
things that they want to do to get either because
something's pleasurable or that they're trying to escape something that
they don't want to do.
S1 (19:44):
So, I mean, why do dogs behave so, so differently
if a dog's stubborn or are they spiteful sometimes when they're,
you know, behaving in those ways?
S2 (19:54):
It is interesting, Harriet, I think when you talk about, um,
stubborn or spiteful, I guess they're human emotions often that
we or labels that we put to things. And generally
dogs can feel frustration or happy or, or, um, you know,
or feeling concerned about things, but generally they don't have those.
(20:14):
The complex emotions like such as spiteful or stubborn. So
I think really it's important if we can try to
avoid using those labels and just kind of pay attention
to what the dog's actually doing. So what are you observing?
What are you hearing? So is it if, um, you
feel like rather than saying the dog's crazy around other
dogs or uncontrollable or something like that, you could kind
(20:39):
of think about what is the dog doing? Is the
dog pulling you towards the other dog? Is it any
time you walk past a dog barking behind the fence,
your dog or puppy is barking at the other dog
because it wants to say hello.
S1 (20:54):
I guess that's one of the things where it's kind
of important to not anthropomorphize and treat them like they're
a human that thinks in the same way. Like when
people say, oh, my dog's guilty about something.
S2 (21:05):
Yes. And usually when that happens in terms of guilty,
it's just that the dog reads your body language. Um,
and they can probably predict the outcome. So they might
read that you're tense, or might use your voice in
a different tone of voice, and that they're predicting that
something unpleasant is going to happen. So they might appear
to look guilty, but generally it's just that they're reading
(21:27):
what you're giving out. Yeah.
S1 (21:30):
So when we're talking about those problem behaviors, maybe it's
not something that the dogs had their whole life. And
you think, where has this come from? So what, you know,
what might cause things to either pop up suddenly or
what other factors might come into play in these types
of things developing?
S2 (21:45):
Yeah. Look, it's really sometimes it can be really subtle
in these behaviors just start to happen out of nowhere.
But it's often they will sometimes start small. So maybe
it's just you think, oh, it's a once off. The
dog was fearful of going upstairs. It was just one
set of stairs. And then you notice that more often
than not, the dog might be hesitant or wanting to
(22:06):
move away from going up stairs, for example. Or maybe
that it barked and lunged lunge towards a dog behind
a fence one time, and then all of a sudden
you notice that, oh, it's happening once a week, and
then then you start to notice maybe it's happening more,
more times. So I think that sometimes is the key.
(22:26):
Harriet is actually, um, recognizing when certain behaviors are starting
to increase and particularly behaviors that we like. We want
to keep telling the dog or puppy that they're doing
well and reinforcing either with a pad or food, but
then also paying attention if there's these other behaviors that
are coming up that we don't want recognizing them early,
(22:49):
that these things are starting to happen once offs or
once offs. But if they're starting to happen more often,
then maybe you start to see the dog become a
habit or it starts to become concerning. So I would
encourage to think back and maybe keep some records or
just quickly write write down when those behaviors are happening
(23:09):
and what's what is happening at that time. So what
is the dog actually doing? Is it what's happening before?
Is it just when a dog barks at your dog
or puppy that the dog then lunges? And at all
other times they walk quite nicely past other dogs? So
you're really kind of getting gathering information is what I
(23:30):
would say is really helpful to be able to problem solve.
So if you gather information around when it starts happening,
how often is it happening and what kind of things
in the environment sets the behavior off. I guess I
gave you an example of dog distraction, but if there's
something like barking and the barking at home happens just
(23:52):
when visitors arrive at the door, or just when they
knock at the door. Um, and if that's something new
for the puppy or dog is just kind of being
aware about what's happening, is it to a particular person?
Is it to the postage? That's a common one for
lots of dogs or is it to anybody? Does it
start to become something where we call generalize, where that behavior,
(24:16):
the problem behavior starts to become to any person coming
to the door or any dog. And ideally, we want
to address that behavior before it starts impacting you as
their handler or impacting the dog. So if the dog's
then showing concern about something, we want to kind of
try to work through it as quickly as we can.
S1 (24:35):
I guess something pops up suddenly might be a problem
or a medical.
S2 (24:39):
Yeah. Great. Yeah. Great thought actually. Yes, exactly. So, um,
I would always if there's a behavior that's come out
of the out of left field and the puppy's always
all dogs always been doing really well, and then all
of a sudden they start to become concerned or that
they're not wanting to walk out or even barking at
(25:00):
new things or anything that seems kind of out of
out of, um, normal. I would always encourage a vet
check just to rule out any medical problems or health
reasons for the behavior, because sometimes it can be like
urinating in the house or urinating out on the street
or toileting. For example, could be indicate actually that there's
(25:20):
a health problem. So you always want to rule out
that first before kind of looking into is it a
behavior something behavioral that we can influence with behavior.
S1 (25:30):
Yeah I was thinking about the stairs too. In particular.
As dogs would get older, you might find that, you know,
the the underlying cause, which is like arthritis or similar.
S2 (25:39):
Yes, exactly. Or not wanting to get in and out
of a car is another sign potentially that yeah, that's
maybe something's hurting for them. They're in pain. Yeah.
S1 (25:48):
When we're talking about behaviors that are not caused by
medical things. But back on the on the things that
are training domain, why is it important to I guess
think about the motivation when you're addressing a behavior.
S2 (26:00):
I guess understanding why the dog is doing what it's
doing helps us to really put our minds into where
where the dog is thinking about, and it also then
helps us to solve it. So I'll go back to
like you. And you're saying dogs stubborn. That actually doesn't
help us solve the problem. It just says the dog's
stubborn and we can't do anything about it. But once
(26:22):
we start to say, unpack that a little bit and say, okay, well,
when I walk out from home, the dogs stopping and
not wanting to keeping on walking. Um, so once we
can actually identify or describe what the dog's doing, it
means that we've got more power to change it. So
we're like, okay, if the dog is doing this, is
(26:42):
there something that we can do to to support the dog?
Can we teach them another behavior at the time? Can
we use positive reinforcement to encourage them? Sometimes for working dogs,
for example, it might just be going a different route
that you have been for maybe a couple of walks
and then trying back on the walk that you're going on.
(27:04):
It kind of empowers us to think about it from
a different point of view, like the dog's or person's
point of view. Actually, there's usually a reason why they're
doing that. Sometimes it's hard to know what the reason is,
but it gives us, I guess, empowerment that we can
change it. And we've got the power to to support
or change behavior rather than kind of going, oh, is
(27:24):
what it is and we can't change it.
S1 (27:33):
You've been listening to the Seeing Auto show on Vision
Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interviews with Kylie Gersh.
Don't forget that we have many great interviews with Kylie
and other expert guests with tips and tricks about training, behaviour,
health and dog care available on your preferred podcast platform
or our Omni FM page. Don't forget to check it
(27:54):
out if you'd like to learn more about seeing eye dogs,
the work we do, becoming a handler or a volunteer,
or supporting us, head to our website at. Thank you
for listening to the show and have a lovely week.
On Vision Australia radio. You're listening to the Seeing Eye
Dog show with me, your host, Harriet Moffatt. Today I'm
joined by training program manager and instructor Kylie Gersh for
some dog handling and training tips for managing dog distraction.
She's going to give some tips and tools to work
with your dog around other dogs, and look at some
of the causes of increased dog distraction. Then I'm going
(00:40):
to play a part of our interview for problem solving Behaviours.
To tie in with this one, we've got lots of
tips for dog handlers and other dog guardians that I
hope you'll find helpful. So let's get into it. Hi Kylie,
thanks for joining me on the show today.
S2 (01:01):
Hi, how are you? How are you doing?
S1 (01:02):
Good. How are you?
S2 (01:04):
Good.
S1 (01:05):
Could you please start off by introducing yourself again?
S2 (01:08):
Um, my name is Kylie Gersh, and I'm the training
program manager here at Seeing Eye Dogs. Um, and I
support the team of trainers and instructors who work mainly
out of our site in Kensington, um, who are training
our lovely seeing eye dogs to be placed with clients.
S1 (01:25):
And you also have a bit of experience, I can
say a bit of, I mean, a pretty considerable one
of experience as an instructor yourself.
S2 (01:31):
Uh, yes. Yeah, I was an instructor up until very,
very recently, and I still, um, from time to time,
go out and see our great seeing eye dog teams
out in the field. Um, so, yeah, still do that
from time to time.
S1 (01:44):
I just think it's relevant to know that when you're
giving advice, it's really good advice, you know? But a
bit of, um, expert in the field here, Kylie, don't
undersell yourself as just a manager.
S2 (01:55):
And, um, I forgot to say, too, that I also, um,
support the program to train new trainers and seeing eye
dog trainers and instructors, as well as my supporting the
qualified staff.
S1 (02:08):
Yeah, I feel I.
S2 (02:09):
Always forget that.
S1 (02:10):
I feel like that's a lot of, um, strings to
your bow that that are relevant when we're talking about
advice that you can give to people. So we're going
to talk about some of the tips that we can
give to panhandlers about dog distraction. I assume that dog
distraction is one of those issues that we're always facing
working in this industry, because whether it's not your dog,
it's someone else's dog. Is that right? Do you think
(02:32):
that dog distraction is always going to be an issue
for us?
S2 (02:36):
Look, it is it's always something. It's one of our
main reason why our dogs don't make it in the
first place is their interest towards other dogs. So I
think it's, um, a challenging, um, overall, but I think
it is something that comes up from time to time. Um,
(02:56):
because as we know, behavior changes. So something might have
even though a person's dog may have just a little
bit of dog interest or may not have had that
much in training, that if there's circumstances or situations that
happen out and about when handlers are going about their
day to day lives. That happens um, that sometimes then, um,
(03:18):
their interest towards dogs fluctuates or changes and can increase, um,
generally not decrease. But, um, we're happy when we hear
that's that situation. But yes, it's all always something that
I think, or a common, um, issue or concern that
people talk to us regularly about. Yeah.
S1 (03:39):
So for anyone that's not aware what might what kind
of what are the sorts of behaviours that we might
describe as either dog, you know, being related to dog
distraction or, you know, how might dog distraction present a dog?
S2 (03:52):
I think for handlers, the main thing of concern is
when the dog loses focus isn't in is, um, not
able to continue their guiding role, or if they give them, um,
the next cue or information that they're not responding to
what the handlers input. So often that's when we will
(04:13):
get called or asked for support is when the dog
isn't responding anymore to what the handler has been previously
been doing, or when maybe the interest towards other dogs.
So you mentioned about behavior. Um, Harriet. So some things
that I think often people will describe is maybe the
dog pulling towards other dogs. Maybe the dogs started to
(04:35):
do some vocalizing to other dogs, maybe the dog, um,
had an incident with another dog. Um, and the dog's
now concerned or stopping and staring at other dogs and
they're harder to, to keep going.
S1 (04:48):
And so I guess when it comes to those types
of things, that's kind of why it might change a
bit too, because like you said, there might be a
bit of an incident and maybe how you address it
might depend on how it's popped up.
S2 (05:00):
Yeah. And I think, um, knowing your dog, asking lots
of questions when you're initially placed with your dog and
you would know, um, I guess, what type of or
their general sponsors around other dogs, dog might need some
verbal input, which is pretty common. Look, we say that
dogs moving through the environment, even though they're seeing eye
(05:20):
dogs and should remain focused, they're still dogs at the
end of the day. And just like us, we do
attend to things in the environment. So if there's a
barking dog that is barking quite aggressively at a at
a seeing eye dog moving through or going trying to
get past, of course the seeing eye dog is going
to look because that is natural for them. They are
(05:41):
in survival mode. You know, they need to to do
that to, to to pay attention. But it's more I
think when dogs are overly interested or not, you're not
able to gain their attention quickly back on task. Um,
that then it becomes more of a concern for people.
S1 (05:58):
Yeah. And I guess even just like if the if
the other dog that they're particularly interested in, distracted or
distracted by is sitting there doing nothing, that's potentially something
that is slightly more problematic than if it's, um, only
the more intense of the, um, interactions.
S2 (06:15):
Yeah, yeah. And look, I think if you're, um, if
somebody's starting to notice that their dog's behavior changes, you know,
they might have only needed to give them some verbal input.
And the dog, you know, the dog was looking and
verbal input and that's usual, usual for that dog. And
then all of a sudden they're showing some more interest.
I'd encourage people to first of all just think about um,
(06:37):
is has there been an incident. Has there been something
like an aggressive dog barking at them, or has there
been some situation that's changed or has some their their
environment changed? So are they going through like now there
might be going a different way to work, and they're
now going through an environment where there's lots of off
(06:58):
leash dogs, which is one of the hardest situations for
a seeing eye dog to continue working through. Um, so
sometimes it can be the environments now that you're, you're
going through that's changed your dog's interest in other dogs. Um,
or it might be to how much they get to
interact with other dogs. So dogs are social creatures. They
(07:19):
love their handler and their family, their people, but they
also like usually playing with other dogs. That's varies on individual.
Some like playing with dogs and some don't mind. You know,
they don't actually care for that so much. So sometimes
it might be that, um, maybe they're not getting as
much opportunity to have a friend or two that they
(07:40):
get to have that playtime. And so now they're seeking
out dogs on the street because they haven't got that
need met of playing with other dogs. Or it might
be that actually now you regularly run them with other
dogs and they're doing that a lot. And so that
they actually, um, are starting to think, oh, this is
pretty good. I'm just going to go and be super
social butterfly and say hello to every other dog. So
(08:03):
it really is individual on that. But sometimes it's either
there that need not being met or maybe it's being
too much. They're, they're um able. Yeah. Too friendly with
other dogs.
S1 (08:15):
I guess for a seeing eye dog or a dog
guide would. The best way of starting to think about
that would be like reflecting and then talking to your staff,
you know, how do you, um, I guess, how do
you start kind of addressing these things or, or even
like if you're not using your staff, you know, how
are you starting to think about this and getting it better?
S2 (08:35):
I would think about how, first of all, when did
it start happening? If there was a change, when did
that change happen? Was there stuff that was occurring? I'd
start thinking about what my dog is actually doing. So what?
Always describing the behavior the best you can, um, is
helpful because if you're getting support from an instructor that
helps us to understand what's happening and advise and provide
(08:58):
you the best advice. Um, the other thing is, what
am I doing? So what am I doing? Sometimes it
might be did I used to give a bit of
food reward after dogs? And now actually I don't use
food that much and now I'm starting to see the
dogs choose to say hello to other dogs because they're
not actually getting something else rewarding for going past us.
(09:21):
So yeah, just having a think about that. Am I
giving verbal inputs, am I you needing to use the lead?
Is it all the time? Is it just once a week? Yeah.
How often that's happening. And what I'm doing is the
most helpful for us as instructors. Um, to, to be
able to have get that information. I'd always encourage people
(09:41):
to try some things if they've got tools that they've
used or handling. Um, try a couple of things if
to see if it works. Um, so if you're not
currently running your dog with other dogs and you've noticed
actually they're really trying to be friendly, say hello to
other dogs, pull to to interact, maybe try, um, to see,
(10:04):
you know, have I got a friend that has a
nice dog that I could take to their house, or
they could come to my house and we could give
them a little run on a, you know, or family
or friends, um, to see if actually that eliminate, you know,
they get that opportunity. So then they're less likely to
do it in work. Um, or maybe I remember I've
got that gentle leader or head collar, um, that I
(10:25):
got in training. I haven't used it or needed to
use it for a while. Do I need some management now?
Because that might help actually to manage the dog. So
always encourage people to, um, have a think. And if
there's some strategies that they're familiar with is, is try
some of those um, and then if it's not working,
just give us. Yeah, give us a call. Um, give
your seeing eye dog um instructor or contact person a
(10:47):
call and just check in with us and see if
we've got, you know, some thoughts around giving or advice that, um,
we can give sometimes it might be, or just ask
us to come out to, um, we can bring a
dog with us and do some setup situations for people
to practice some of those tools. So if you've tried
the tools that you know, it might be us actually
(11:10):
then supporting you to learn different tools, um, based on
what your dog is doing now. So maybe you didn't
need those tools or weren't familiar with those tools initially,
but maybe now there's some other tools that, um, you're
not aware of that we can then, um, show you
or teach you that you could try to see if
that works.
S1 (11:30):
But it's tools, you know, you're not just talking about
physical kind of equipment like your head collars and stuff,
are you? You're talking about like, training methods, strategies.
S2 (11:38):
Yeah. So whether it is, um, I always encourage, if
in doubt, as long as you're not in a road crossing, um,
then to stop address, um, what your dog is doing
now put usually putting them into a sit, getting their
focus back on you. It's one of the go to um,
strategies or tools. So yes, it's like any kind of
(11:59):
strategy or method I guess, in managing that situation. Um,
so it could mean physical tools like using a gentle
leader or maybe a different collar type, um, or head collar.
But it's generally when I say tools. Thanks, Harriet.
S1 (12:15):
It's more just in case.
S2 (12:16):
Yeah, it's more to do with, um, strategies or different
ways you can handle your dog. That might work to
regain their focus in the time, but then also either
reduce the their dog, their dog distraction or help you
manage it. Yeah.
S1 (12:34):
Uh, I don't know if this is like a coming from,
like a public hearing point of view, but do you,
would you encourage, like, you know, if you're talking about
food using like, higher value rewards and that type of stuff.
S2 (12:45):
You can try, um, higher value sometimes definitely works. Um,
can can do quite well. And the reason why, I guess,
behind that is that you want to find something that's
more reinforcing. So depends on what's happening. If they're finding, going,
saying hello to dog, that they can say hello to
the dog and they enjoy that interaction, it's probably likely
(13:07):
to keep going because they find that reinforcing. They like it. Um,
so high value. What it does is that you are
probably going to ask them to do something else instead
of saying hello. Maybe as soon as they start moving
towards a dog and you can feel that or um,
visualize that. Then you ask the dog to sit, and
(13:28):
when they sit and the focus is on you, you
give them something that means just as much to them
as saying hello to a dog. So probably for Labradors,
that's chicken or hot dog or something that's equally as good,
probably better or higher value than them going to say
hello to a to a dog. So sometimes that's a
(13:49):
way you can get their focus back on you, because
they can learn very quickly that I'm not going to
get to say hello to the dog, but that's okay,
because for sitting or for locating the curb, the next curb,
I'm going to get something that's really good. And I
like that just as much, or if not better, than
saying hello to other dogs. Um, and if they get
opportunities to play with other dogs at different times as well,
(14:13):
like a friend's dog or, you know, um, then they go, oh, yeah,
I've got I've got a chance to play with dogs
at other times. That's okay. You know, um, getting nice
food or hot dog at the curb is just as good.
S1 (14:25):
Yeah, I can, I can this is playtime. And then
this is the time where I get a hot dog.
A dog at a curb.
S2 (14:31):
Yes. I think one of the instructors up in Queensland,
I think he uses, um, like freeze dried chicken. So.
Or um. Yes. So that's pretty, pretty enticing to, to um,
reinforce behaviors we want. Yeah.
S1 (14:47):
And if you're a vegetarian you can always try carrots
as a first. Um, first.
S2 (14:51):
Yes. Parents is okay. I would have to say for
most dogs probably if they had the choice. And that's
what we're where we want them to choose to continue
guiding um, and working as opposed to going to say
hello to the to the dog. I'm not carrot might
not cut it if.
S1 (15:09):
I found carrots to be a great time.
S2 (15:12):
It depends on depends on.
S1 (15:13):
The.
S2 (15:13):
Dog. Oh, yeah, it does depend on the dog, but
it might not be enough.
S1 (15:17):
Yeah.
S2 (15:17):
Okay. Yeah. Um, no. Yeah. Look, normal kibble for a
lot of Labradors is fine. Pretty is pretty good. Um,
but again, it just depends. It depends on how much interest.
And we're talking about dogs that are wanting to play
with other dogs. Um, there is also some situations which
happens because we're teams are constantly moving through other dogs territories, um,
(15:41):
and in front of other dogs houses. And so sometimes
it can be that the seeing eye dog actually becomes
a little bit concerned, um, about having to do that,
because you could imagine if someone is hurling abuse at you, um,
like saying all these stuff to you, which is what
dogs do when they're barking your dog, you're probably not
(16:02):
going to feel that confident wanting to walk past that person.
Or you might be a little hesitant, so.
S1 (16:07):
Might not focus on your work quite as much if you're.
S2 (16:10):
Quite as much.
S1 (16:11):
Yeah, yeah.
S2 (16:12):
So in those times, it times, it might be more
that you're needing to support your dog through that situation
by using your voice and your lead, and then letting
them know that you know it's okay. It's it's fine.
You can keep going. Yeah.
S1 (16:27):
Is there anything else that you would like to kind
of cover? Um, about the topic of dog distraction today?
S2 (16:35):
I think the main things is that it's it is common.
It is, um, something that behavior fluctuates. Uh, so if
you're noticing an increase, um, just just reach out. That's
probably the main message. I would say just reach out
to chat, um, through it. Um, and we can always
pop out. Sometimes it can be a lot more challenging
(16:56):
to reduce it. Um, and particularly the more times the
dog has at interacting with the other dog, sometimes the
harder it is to reduce. There is situations where actually
we're not able to change the dog's behavior for whatever reason. Um,
so they can. Yeah, those situations can sometimes be challenging,
(17:17):
but we're always happy to work, um, with the person, um,
and their dog for however long you want us, um,
to be involved and what's going to be doable for
you for strategies. Um, and then, yeah, we can we
can always take it, take it from there.
S1 (17:33):
And I guess what you said, just kind of sooner
rather than later, is more going to be more effective.
More likely.
S2 (17:39):
Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I think the other main thing
is just, um, noticing when things change for your dog, um,
and when behavior changes and, and if you're noticing something escalating,
then just just reach out. We're always happy to have
a have a quick chat. Yeah.
S1 (17:54):
Well, thank you for coming on the show and providing
some tips and information about dog distraction.
S2 (17:59):
Anytime, Harriet. Always happy to have a chat with you.
And come on.
S1 (18:07):
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show on
Vision Australia Radio. That was Kylie Gersch training program manager
and instructor talking about dog distraction tips. Now Kylie is
back with part of a repeat of an episode about
problem behaviors and how to solve them. The rest of
that interview is available to podcast wherever you get your
Seeing Eye Dog Show podcast from. I hope you enjoy
(18:29):
this part of that interview on this show today. So
we're going to start and talk about some problem behaviors
or problem and problem solving behaviors. So I guess what
might someone describe as a problem behavior.
S2 (18:42):
I guess it's just behaviors. And when we're talking about
dogs in particular, it's behaviors that may impact us or
that is potentially annoying or something that we want the
dog usually to stop doing. So it's important to understand,
I guess, from a dog's perspective, that they're just behaving
in a way to control their outcomes. So they what
(19:04):
is if you ask what behavior is for? It's just that, um,
it allows any living species to gain something that's pleasurable.
So something that we want and we usually repeat those behaviors.
If it's something nice and we want to keep getting
that nice thing, or we generally try to avoid or
escape things that doesn't work for us or doesn't work well.
(19:26):
So when we think about problem behaviors, um, it's important
also to think about it from the the other animals perspective.
So in this case, the dogs that they're just doing
things that they want to do to get either because
something's pleasurable or that they're trying to escape something that
they don't want to do.
S1 (19:44):
So, I mean, why do dogs behave so, so differently
if a dog's stubborn or are they spiteful sometimes when they're,
you know, behaving in those ways?
S2 (19:54):
It is interesting, Harriet, I think when you talk about, um,
stubborn or spiteful, I guess they're human emotions often that
we or labels that we put to things. And generally
dogs can feel frustration or happy or, or, um, you know,
or feeling concerned about things, but generally they don't have those.
(20:14):
The complex emotions like such as spiteful or stubborn. So
I think really it's important if we can try to
avoid using those labels and just kind of pay attention
to what the dog's actually doing. So what are you observing?
What are you hearing? So is it if, um, you
feel like rather than saying the dog's crazy around other
dogs or uncontrollable or something like that, you could kind
(20:39):
of think about what is the dog doing? Is the
dog pulling you towards the other dog? Is it any
time you walk past a dog barking behind the fence,
your dog or puppy is barking at the other dog
because it wants to say hello.
S1 (20:54):
I guess that's one of the things where it's kind
of important to not anthropomorphize and treat them like they're
a human that thinks in the same way. Like when
people say, oh, my dog's guilty about something.
S2 (21:05):
Yes. And usually when that happens in terms of guilty,
it's just that the dog reads your body language. Um,
and they can probably predict the outcome. So they might
read that you're tense, or might use your voice in
a different tone of voice, and that they're predicting that
something unpleasant is going to happen. So they might appear
to look guilty, but generally it's just that they're reading
(21:27):
what you're giving out. Yeah.
S1 (21:30):
So when we're talking about those problem behaviors, maybe it's
not something that the dogs had their whole life. And
you think, where has this come from? So what, you know,
what might cause things to either pop up suddenly or
what other factors might come into play in these types
of things developing?
S2 (21:45):
Yeah. Look, it's really sometimes it can be really subtle
in these behaviors just start to happen out of nowhere.
But it's often they will sometimes start small. So maybe
it's just you think, oh, it's a once off. The
dog was fearful of going upstairs. It was just one
set of stairs. And then you notice that more often
than not, the dog might be hesitant or wanting to
(22:06):
move away from going up stairs, for example. Or maybe
that it barked and lunged lunge towards a dog behind
a fence one time, and then all of a sudden
you notice that, oh, it's happening once a week, and
then then you start to notice maybe it's happening more,
more times. So I think that sometimes is the key.
(22:26):
Harriet is actually, um, recognizing when certain behaviors are starting
to increase and particularly behaviors that we like. We want
to keep telling the dog or puppy that they're doing
well and reinforcing either with a pad or food, but
then also paying attention if there's these other behaviors that
are coming up that we don't want recognizing them early,
(22:49):
that these things are starting to happen once offs or
once offs. But if they're starting to happen more often,
then maybe you start to see the dog become a
habit or it starts to become concerning. So I would
encourage to think back and maybe keep some records or
just quickly write write down when those behaviors are happening
(23:09):
and what's what is happening at that time. So what
is the dog actually doing? Is it what's happening before?
Is it just when a dog barks at your dog
or puppy that the dog then lunges? And at all
other times they walk quite nicely past other dogs? So
you're really kind of getting gathering information is what I
(23:30):
would say is really helpful to be able to problem solve.
So if you gather information around when it starts happening,
how often is it happening and what kind of things
in the environment sets the behavior off. I guess I
gave you an example of dog distraction, but if there's
something like barking and the barking at home happens just
(23:52):
when visitors arrive at the door, or just when they
knock at the door. Um, and if that's something new
for the puppy or dog is just kind of being
aware about what's happening, is it to a particular person?
Is it to the postage? That's a common one for
lots of dogs or is it to anybody? Does it
start to become something where we call generalize, where that behavior,
(24:16):
the problem behavior starts to become to any person coming
to the door or any dog. And ideally, we want
to address that behavior before it starts impacting you as
their handler or impacting the dog. So if the dog's
then showing concern about something, we want to kind of
try to work through it as quickly as we can.
S1 (24:35):
I guess something pops up suddenly might be a problem
or a medical.
S2 (24:39):
Yeah. Great. Yeah. Great thought actually. Yes, exactly. So, um,
I would always if there's a behavior that's come out
of the out of left field and the puppy's always
all dogs always been doing really well, and then all
of a sudden they start to become concerned or that
they're not wanting to walk out or even barking at
(25:00):
new things or anything that seems kind of out of
out of, um, normal. I would always encourage a vet
check just to rule out any medical problems or health
reasons for the behavior, because sometimes it can be like
urinating in the house or urinating out on the street
or toileting. For example, could be indicate actually that there's
(25:20):
a health problem. So you always want to rule out
that first before kind of looking into is it a
behavior something behavioral that we can influence with behavior.
S1 (25:30):
Yeah I was thinking about the stairs too. In particular.
As dogs would get older, you might find that, you know,
the the underlying cause, which is like arthritis or similar.
S2 (25:39):
Yes, exactly. Or not wanting to get in and out
of a car is another sign potentially that yeah, that's
maybe something's hurting for them. They're in pain. Yeah.
S1 (25:48):
When we're talking about behaviors that are not caused by
medical things. But back on the on the things that
are training domain, why is it important to I guess
think about the motivation when you're addressing a behavior.
S2 (26:00):
I guess understanding why the dog is doing what it's
doing helps us to really put our minds into where
where the dog is thinking about, and it also then
helps us to solve it. So I'll go back to
like you. And you're saying dogs stubborn. That actually doesn't
help us solve the problem. It just says the dog's
stubborn and we can't do anything about it. But once
(26:22):
we start to say, unpack that a little bit and say, okay, well,
when I walk out from home, the dogs stopping and
not wanting to keeping on walking. Um, so once we
can actually identify or describe what the dog's doing, it
means that we've got more power to change it. So
we're like, okay, if the dog is doing this, is
(26:42):
there something that we can do to to support the dog?
Can we teach them another behavior at the time? Can
we use positive reinforcement to encourage them? Sometimes for working dogs,
for example, it might just be going a different route
that you have been for maybe a couple of walks
and then trying back on the walk that you're going on.
(27:04):
It kind of empowers us to think about it from
a different point of view, like the dog's or person's
point of view. Actually, there's usually a reason why they're
doing that. Sometimes it's hard to know what the reason is,
but it gives us, I guess, empowerment that we can
change it. And we've got the power to to support
or change behavior rather than kind of going, oh, is
(27:24):
what it is and we can't change it.
S1 (27:33):
You've been listening to the Seeing Auto show on Vision
Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interviews with Kylie Gersh.
Don't forget that we have many great interviews with Kylie
and other expert guests with tips and tricks about training, behaviour,
health and dog care available on your preferred podcast platform
or our Omni FM page. Don't forget to check it
(27:54):
out if you'd like to learn more about seeing eye dogs,
the work we do, becoming a handler or a volunteer,
or supporting us, head to our website at. Thank you
for listening to the show and have a lovely week.
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