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August 31, 2023 21 mins

Note: A heads up for our listeners, the following episode discusses mental health. If this raises any issues for you, please reach out. The contact numbers for support services are listed in the episode description or CA ANZ members can also find support by searching for ‘CA Wellbeing’ on our website.

CA ANZ past President Jane Stanton FCA is a thoughtful, compassionate champion for good mental health – and she’s on a stigma-busting mission. This episode of Small Firm, Big Impact explores Jane’s lived experience of mental ill health and the tools she used to balance work expectations. Learn how to set up mentally healthy workplaces and the supports available to you as a CA ANZ member.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gillian Bowen, Host (00:00):
A heads up for our listeners. The following episode discusses
mental health. If this raises any issues for you, please
reach out. The contact numbers for support services are listed
in the episode description or CA ANZ members can also
find support by searching 'CA wellbeing' on our website. Hello,

(00:28):
my name is Gillian Bowen, Public Affairs Manager at Chartered
Accountants Australia and New Zealand. This is Small Firm, Big Impact.

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (00:41):
You know, I'd walk past meeting rooms and I'd see
that people were having a conversation. And I would think
in my head that that meeting was about me. Now
that I have the insights, I'm able to say to,
you know, the people that I'm working with, look, you know, I,
I need to take an hour because, you know, I

(01:02):
have to go and see my psychologist. And that's no
different to seeing a physio or any other type of doctor.
It's the it's the same.

Gillian Bowen, Host (01:18):
It's the podcast giving you and your clients the up
to date information you need to do your jobs. Each
episode I share resources, tools and expert advice provided by
CA ANZ and a range of people across our profession. So
make sure you're following the pod in your favourite pod app.
And if you've got an idea for the show email
podcast@charteredaccountantsanz.com Today we have Jane Stanton, FCA, a past president

(01:52):
of Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand, and current partner
at Grant Thornton, Australia. The topic mental wellness in the
accounting profession and by drawing on her own experience balancing
a rewarding career with managing mental illness. Jane welcome to
Small Firm, Big Impact.

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (02:11):
Thank you for having me, Gill.

Gillian Bowen, Host (02:13):
How long have you been an accountant or involved in accountancy?

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (02:19):
Oh, so I started as an undergraduate at Pricewaterhouse Parramatta
in 1989. I was 17 years old.

Gillian Bowen, Host (02:30):
I love it. So there's a there's a fair bit
of experience that you bring to the table, which is wonderful.
And I thought it would be interesting to set this
up by seeing if you could give me a bit
of a taste of what it was like then and
perhaps what it's like now.

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (02:47):
Yep. So it's it's some things have changed and some
things have changed have very much stayed the same. So
obviously what's changed is the digitisation. And you know, we
didn't use computers. We had, you know, as an undergraduate,
one of my jobs was putting memos into people's pigeonholes. So,

(03:12):
you know, the way that we work has completely changed.
How we work is, yeah, it's very much there are
some similarities. The thing that's always attracted me and why
I've stayed in the profession is that we work in teams. So,

(03:34):
you know, I started my career in external audit. I
now work in risk consulting, but it's the power of
the team. So, you know, all the work we do
is always about a team contribution and team insights and
and that type of thing. And that that hasn't changed.
And that's what I really enjoy and working in. You know,

(03:58):
accounting firms are multigenerational. So you have, you know, people
who are starting out in their career versus, you know,
partners who who have been in the firm for many,
many years. So that concept of working in a multigenerational
context with different insights that that brings that stayed the

(04:18):
same as well.

Gillian Bowen, Host (04:20):
What are the positives and negatives of being part of
a profession, Do you think?

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (04:27):
I mean, I guess the positives have outweighed the negatives
because I wouldn't I wouldn't still be in the profession,
as you know, in my 50s, having started out as
a 17 year old. But I think it's and it's
something that I think, you know, certainly during my presidency
came home to me is actually that you're part of

(04:49):
a profession. So in a way, you're working with people
who are held to the same ethical standards as as
you are. But it's also that sense that you never
on your own that, you know, I've been lucky. I've
always been part of a firm or a large company,

(05:09):
but even as a sole practitioner, you have somewhere to
go to get the support that you need because you
are part of a profession. And I think sometimes that
get message does get a little bit lost. Um, but
I think it's really important. So you never have to

(05:30):
be truly isolated.

Gillian Bowen, Host (05:34):
That idea of support and I guess it requires you
to reveal if you reveal part of yourself or if
you are struggling or if you require support, you are
required to be a tad vulnerable. And you have taken
on this as something that you're really passionate about is

(05:54):
revealing potential vulnerabilities. How does that work?

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (06:00):
Um, I think it's something that I certainly would have
never done at the beginning of my career. You know,
the I don't think I've only been able to become vulnerable, A,
because I'm more comfortable with myself and my reputation. But
I didn't have the level of self-awareness or understanding into

(06:25):
my illness to actually be vulnerable because I didn't have
a sufficient understanding of my illness. So it was only
when I could speak about the illness almost in from
a third party perspective and speak about it a little
bit dispassionately and a little bit objectively, that that actually

(06:49):
helped me to be vulnerable because I could separate the
illness from myself. In the past. I just didn't have
the level of insight to be able to do that.
And I think you know, because I grew up in
the 70s, it just wasn't spoken about. So it wasn't
until I was, you know, well into my 30s and

(07:12):
40s that I gained the insight into my illness to
be able to talk about it in a in a
different way, but understand it and understand how to manage it.

Gillian Bowen, Host (07:25):
So there's a couple of things there to unpack. Management
is one that you've just said there right at the end,
but also revealing and the benefits of revealing if a
member is listening along and they're thinking, Oh, this is
resonating with me, how how would you go about managing

(07:46):
this in the workplace and and why do it?

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (07:49):
Yeah. And I think, you know, it's it's finding someone
in the workplace that you feel comfortable having that conversation
with or if there's someone in the workplace that recognizes that,
you know, perhaps you're in a position that, you know,
you're not you're not operating to the degree that you

(08:12):
should be operating in. But I think sometimes, you know,
in these in this frantic world that we live in, um,
you know, for me, it was trying to clear out
the noise in my head and understanding, you know, what
was genuine noise that I could remove versus what was

(08:33):
the anxiety that was creating the noise. And I think,
you know, through having those insights into my own illness,
I'm I'm pretty attuned to some of the the the
signals that and the methods that people could be using
to try and cover something up or, um, you know,

(08:56):
trying to sort of manage something but not let people
people know. But I think, you know, certainly the more
that people talk about it, the easier it is for
people to be vulnerable. And, you know, the method that
I use is to talk about my illness. Like people
would talk about a physical illness. That's the method that

(09:19):
I use. And I find that's the best way to
remove any stigma that, you know, I have a chronic condition.
It's not diabetes, it's not heart disease, it's depression, anxiety
and OCD. And it's a disease. And I manage it
that way.

Gillian Bowen, Host (09:38):
Do you feel that it has had a negative impact
on your ability to be in the office, interact with
your colleagues, do valuable work, contribute. I know that sounds
like a loaded question, but there would be people who, and and
that I'm pre-empting your answer, but I'm thinking about those

(09:59):
listening along saying this is private. And if I do
reveal that, what will people then think of me?

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (10:05):
But it's much easier to reveal it if you think
of it as an illness and it's something that you're managing. So,
you know, I have a I have a team member
at the moment that has a, you know, a chronic
hip issue from doing too much running that they're managing
and they have to go to the physio and they

(10:26):
have to do various other things. You know, I think
of my illness the same way. So, you know, there's
certain things that I have to manage and certain boundaries
that I have to have in place. But, you know,
it's it's it's a it's just like every other physical
illness that you know, everyone at some point in their

(10:49):
time in their life may experience some form of of
mental illness. And, you know, before I had the insight
into my into my illness, my mind was working over time. Like,
you know, I'd walk past meeting rooms and I'd see

(11:10):
that people were having a conversation. And I would think
in my head that that meeting was about me, but
that was just faulty thinking. So, you know, it was
that mental exhaustion from trying to deal with what was
going on in my in my head. But, you know,
now that I have the insights, I, you know, I'm

(11:31):
able to say to, you know, the people that I'm
working with, look, you know, I, I need to take
an hour because, you know, I have to go and
see my psychologist. And that's no different to seeing a
physio or any other type of doctor. It's the it's

(11:52):
the same. But speaking, I just find the more that
I can normalise it, the easier it is to, you know,
have it treated as though it's any other illness.

Gillian Bowen, Host (12:03):
What would be your advice to those in leadership positions
within a workplace, whether that's just the boss of a
small firm or somewhere in that might be a little
bit bigger. They may not be able to fully understand
because they may not have mental illness, but they would

(12:24):
have a team member who would want to have support
in this area. What's your advice to someone in leadership
who would be navigating this potentially for the first time?

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (12:34):
So how would you respond if a team member came
to you and said they had a physical illness?
Mm.
And manage it the same way.

Gillian Bowen, Host (12:44):
And that requires a bit of practice because I feel
that there's a bit of stigma potentially involved in all
of that as well, isn't there?

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (12:51):
Yeah, but.
Just, you know, your team member has come to you
and said they're managing an illness. It happens to be
a mental illness rather than a physical illness, but it
needs to be managed in the same way. And, you know,
a bit like, you know, if a if a team
member is is recovering from an illness, it's it's putting

(13:13):
an actual program in place to make sure that they
can recover. It's exactly the same thing. So it's no
it's no different. And the more that you think of
it differently, the more that you embed the stigma.

Gillian Bowen, Host (13:29):
Now that you're in a senior position in for yourself
in the profession, do you see a lot of the
younger team members or colleagues that come into the business?
Maybe experiencing or suffering imposter syndrome? And I know that
you have previously written about imposter syndrome. How much of

(13:53):
that ties into people's mental wellness and their ability to
function in the profession?

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (14:02):
Yeah, I think, look, it becomes a confidence thing and
and the thing that I find myself saying to a
lot of younger team members is you're judging yourselves by
standards that are impossible to meet. So it's being it's
being kind to yourself and being realistic about what it

(14:26):
is that you're going to be able to achieve, but
also understanding where you can best make a contribution. So
I find imposter syndrome almost operates in two ways. One,
you know, you don't I don't belong here. And then
the other one is I'm going to be found out. So,

(14:49):
you know, I should, you know, someone else will come
and walk into the meeting room and say, Jane Stanton,
why are you here? You shouldn't be here because you're
not qualified or experienced.

Gillian Bowen, Host (15:05):
Can you imagine someone actually doing that? I find that. Yeah, but but
that's right.

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (15:09):
That's the faulty. But that's just faulty thinking. I mean,
that's all it is. And, you know, one of the
most valuable things I learned in managing my illness is
just because you're thinking it doesn't mean that it's true.

Gillian Bowen, Host (15:26):
I find it helpful...

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (15:28):
And once I got my head around that, my life
was so much easier because my my mind would be
saying to me, Jane Stanton, you don't deserve to be
in this meeting. But it wasn't actually true. I did
deserve to be there because I was qualified to be there.

(15:48):
I was doing a role that required me to be there,
but I was imposing this story on all the other
people who were in the meeting. That wasn't actually true.

Gillian Bowen, Host (16:03):
I think you would enjoy my mantra, which is focus
on the facts.

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (16:07):
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. But I do see, you know, and
not that I want to make this about gender, but
I'm working with a number of, you know, younger female
team members at the moment who are you know, they're fantastic.
They're really, really capable. But I can just I know

(16:31):
the stories that they're telling themselves in their in their heads. And,
you know, one what I do now is if they
say something and they start the the interaction with, I
don't think I can do this, I actually tell them
to stop. And we're going to reframe that.

Gillian Bowen, Host (16:52):
And then that's practicing a useful muscle. Let's not forget
how powerful our brain is.

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (16:57):
Exactly, Exactly, exactly.

Gillian Bowen, Host (17:00):
If someone is looking for a couple of you know where to
from here, then. Okay. I might see if I can
get some support or work out what it is. A
bit of self awareness, how they dive deep into their brain. What?
What would you suggest?

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (17:15):
Yeah.
So all, you know, virtually all workplaces have employee assistance
programs and you know, that entitles you to, you know,
a number of sessions with a psychologist or a counsellor.
And I would certainly, you know, recommend that if you
feel that you need someone to talk to, that you

(17:39):
use that as a port of call. If your workplace
doesn't have access to EAP, then the next best place
to go is to CA and there's a number of
fantastic groups within CA that are specifically set up to, to

(18:01):
help members navigate their way through a particular scenario or,
you know, a particular circumstance. And you know that that
benefit of talking to someone who inherently understands the circumstance
that you're in is incredibly supportive.

Gillian Bowen, Host (18:25):
Yes.
Well, that's right. I will put links to those options
in the show notes because the employee assistant program service
is available to all CA ANZ members and it is a
confidential program and it supports members and also members families
through counselling services. And it can be accessed 24 hours

(18:46):
a day, seven days a week. And as Jane was saying,
it's up to three sessions. They're free of charge if
you're a member, I will put a link to that
in the show notes. And the other group that is
helpful is the CA Advisory Group or CAAG, as we
call it. And we've just done an episode on that
as well. So check out the episode before this one.
It explains how we can provide support for CAs facing

(19:09):
ethical dilemmas or weighing up career decisions, and that is
also free and confidential. Jane, a final thought before we
wrap up.

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (19:18):
I you know, it's funny. During my my period as
as presidency, as president, I was asked a lot like,
why should I why should I be a member of CA? And,
you know, there's many reasons. But Gill, as you just mentioned,
it's it's these things that you don't think about that

(19:39):
you actually have access to. So I think it's you know,
it's getting to know the member body that you have.
You know, there's these amazing resources that most people and
most members don't actually realize are there. And, you know,
that's that is the benefit of being a CA. Yes.

(20:00):
It's about the reputation. It's all those other things. But
it's actually being able to access some of these wellbeing
services that for whatever reason you may not have access
to in your workplace or you may not feel comfortable
accessing in your workplace environment that you're able to do
so through CA ANZ.

Gillian Bowen, Host (20:21):
Totally. Look, that is all we have time for. Jane,
thank you for being so honest and open. I know
those listening along will have appreciated it. I'll put some
links in the show notes for all the useful information
we've talked about. Follow the pod if you haven't already
and give us a review. The podcast has an email,
so feel free to get in touch. Podcast@charteredaccountantsanz.com Let's start

(20:43):
a conversation. Thank you, Jane Stanton for being my expert
on Small Firm, Big Impact.

Jane Stanton FCA, past President CA ANZ (20:49):
My pleasure, Gill. Thank you so much for having me.

Gillian Bowen, Host (20:52):
Bye bye.
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