May 21, 2025 • 59 mins
Tara Rae Moss is an author and advocate, now hosting a new season of the award-winning domestic violence podcast There’s No Place Like Home. We speak about her fascinating life, her approach to writing, what inspires her book characters, her advocacy work, and much more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Him, I boris and this is straight talk ty right. Welcome,
by the way, welcome back to Australia.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Thank you. I'm just like right off the plane and
slightly jagged pretty much. Yeah, so thank you for the
coffee and the conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
That's amazing. You just got off a plane from Canada
and you look amazing like I got off a plane
yesterday from la and I look like jack shit, you
look terrific, mother god Like, how does that happen? How
does that happen?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Actually it was a bag of ice I put. I
had ice on my face.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
You know the tricks. Yeah, you've got to after the years, right, well,
actually that might take Let's go back a little way back, way,
way way back up when I first knew of you.
Australian's first new of you. You're a model back in
those days. And and I didn't get surprised when you
walked into the studio because you are quite tall relative
(00:50):
to me anyway, and and I'm not particularly short, but
I'm not particularly tall. You're quite a tall woman. You
were a well known model in Australia and around the
place around the world. What is it like being pigeonholed
as a young girl, a young woman, I should say
as that person.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well I'm not a young woman anymore, but I remember
what it was like. I remember when my first novel
came out in nineteen ninety nine. It was called Fetish.
It hit Australia first, and.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
This right pod by the way, Yeah that's.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Right, nineteen ninety nine we launched at the Police and
Justice Museum. It was like a highlight of my life
because I'd wanted to be a published novelist since I
was a little kid. And what immediately happened was this
rumor campaign that my books couldn't have possibly been written
by me because I was model. So there was this
kind of question about whether I could string words together
(01:47):
because people take my photograph and it was very surreal
at the time. I think when I'd been working as
a model to pay the bills, I hadn't really considered
how people would take that as meaning so much more.
You know that being photographed means you can't do these
other things. And of course a lot of models I
worked with putting themselves through college and doing all kinds
(02:10):
of other things to pay, you know, and modeling to
pay the rent. But there are you know, stereotypes around
people like that. I was blonde at the time, a
model in my twenties, you know, I fit a few
stereotypes at once, and so I remember being told by
a producer at one point, Oh, you're the dumb blonde
who isn't and going like what does that even mean?
(02:31):
Like this is so bizarre to me. So it was
a strange introduction to publishing in that way. But my
fifteenth book is coming out later this year and it
feels like another lifetime ago that those rumors were there.
And indeed, a polygraph test I don't know if you
know about that one mark. So polygraph, of course is
a lie detective test. And when my second book Split
(02:54):
launched in two thousand and two in Australia, I was
dared by a journalist, pretty fabulous woman actually at the
Australian newspaper to take a polygraph test to prove that
I write my own books. So I ended up being
polygraph tested by you know, a cop who normally you know,
he tests like suspected rapists and pedophiles and me a
(03:16):
suspected author. And I had the armbands, big momonometer on
and the newmotubes and the you know little thing on
the end of the finger that measures your perspiration. And
off we went and I ended up with a thirty
three page report saying guilty is charged. I write books
and that was my strange introduction to publishing, the publishing
(03:38):
world in Australia.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
You are born in Canada, yes, but you lived in Australia.
You're a dual citizen. Let's call it. Yeah, that's crime. Yes.
And you know, we know about your modeling career. You've
sort of given us a bit of an update on it.
But what is it about you? Because you just mentioned
the place you launched your first book? What was Police
Injustice Museum? Museum is down Circular Key. That's great and
(04:02):
not many people who probably know about it. But it's
a museum. I remember, so I would to walk past
me and took my office out that way in the city.
But the Police and Justice Museum is I think it's
an old courthouse, yes, and there would have been a
gil in the back of it. And it was probably
one of the first police court, one of the first courthouses, which,
(04:23):
by the way, in those days judges or the magistrates
were police. Probably in Sydney. What is it that it
gives you a fascination about crime. That's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I guess I'm interested in the light and the dark.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I'm interested in what.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Is illuminated and what is left in shadow. And I
think to really understand the human condition, to get a
rule well, to be alive, and to really know what's
going on around you, you actually do have to look
at both. So I think most people would agree I'm
a pretty positive, upbeat person, but I still write a
about some quite heavy topics at times, and I think
(05:02):
that's just simply being real, being in the moment, being present.
If I only wrote all kind of love and light
and there was no shadow, I don't think it would
be as real or as interesting. And when I write
about dark subjects, I want to have my facts right,
so I go a long way from my research. I
spend time with police officers. I've spent time with FBI agents.
(05:25):
I've been to Quantico. Quantico is the FBI academy that's
in the US, so I spent time at the actual academy.
Those of you who like Silence of Lambs would recognize
that was I think, at the time, certainly the only
film that was shot allowed to shoot actually at the Academy,
so some of those scenes are actually shot there at Quantico.
(05:49):
I'm just fascinated by what goes on behind the scenes,
and I don't want to have a view of life
that is artificial. I want to know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
It's actually when you talk about the darker light, just
parked light over here for a second. Just I'm actually
fascinated by dark And you know, I've got friends I
grew up with. You know, some of them been to Jaile,
some of who sort of participate in all sorts of
unusual things. And where I grew up, which was a
(06:22):
long way out west, it was unusual to have these
types of friends. A lot of them were had terrible
upbringings and stuff like that. In fact, I've had a
few of them on my show where they talked about,
you know, being and Jeff murder and stuff of that.
One of the reasons they they believe that they were
in this position is because a lot of these guys,
(06:42):
these the men who I have had involved with, were
actually abused as children to suffered abusic lives. And I
see that as the dark and that abuse can just
repeat itself.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
The cycle of violence is very serious.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
And it's nearly like they're doing the only thing. And
a lot of them were. Unfortunately I didn't never have
the opportunity to be educated. Some of them don't even
read it right. Still, and I always find and fascinating
that society is prepared to make judgment on these individuals
as opposed to.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Well, I think if you commit murderer, it's probably fair
to have a judgment on that.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, but not but where I'm probably wrong at You're right,
they can't be doing it because of a dangerous society,
but may make judgment on their character as opposed to
sort of trying and understand what is it that made
them this person. Now I'm not saying I'm giving you,
I'm not giving you any excuses at all. But what
I find fascinating is what made them that person. That's
(07:39):
the dark that I'm very interested in. Is that something
that sort of fascinates you like or are you more
interested in learning about it as opposed to your I'm
just fascinated, But are you interested in learning about it
and then telling us about it?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I think all of the above. I'm interested in the
human experience, so I'm interested in what makes people tick.
I'm interested in the things that people still I'm interested
in their stories, and I guess if you look at
the last twenty five years of my advocacy, I have
been very interested and focused on survivors and kind of
(08:12):
like people who have pulled themselves up so they could
have got caught in that cycle of violence, and there
would be lots of reasons, you know, we know the stats,
as you've pointed out, that there's this cycle, but they
chose to do something different, and I find something in
that very inspiring, you know. And I think also that
we need to look at the fact that life is
(08:35):
in all roses. I love roses, but life is sadly
not all roses. And we shouldn't be pigeonholed by something
that someone else did to us. We shouldn't be pigeonholed
by the biggest tragedy that comes through our lives. And yeah,
we shouldn't necessarily be pigeonholed by something that we did
that was wrong that we've learned from we've maybe done
(08:55):
our time for so again, not making any excuses, but
it's all too easy to us dismiss people, and actually
they often have a lot to teach us, and that
I think is very interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Well, in your time studying this sort of stuff and
probably in viewing these types of individuals, I'm sure you've
had exposure to them. What have you learned that you
might better share with us? But if you learned about
the difference between someone who's just lived that whole life
doing that stuff, and you know, probably has a fair explanation,
(09:29):
it's not an excuse, but an explanation as to why
they're that person compared to the people who are able
to survive the trauma that they're going to choose to
do early on and been able to turn themselves around
and not going down that track. What have you learned?
What's the difference to decide to choose I'm not going
(09:49):
to be that person.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Kindness and compassion is such a strength, So we're looking
at really the strongest people out there are the people
who allow themselves to continue to feel to be vulnerable,
to receive love even if they weren't given that as
a kid. You know, that's brave and that is strength
to me. And I think that often in our mainstream culture,
(10:13):
you know, we're given a certain particularly with masculinity, we're
given a certain snapshot of what that's supposed to look like,
and we don't often give enough space in that for vulnerability, emotion,
quiet strength instead of brute strength. Right, So I like
to kind of illuminate that part of it. And when
you read my books, you'll find that there's all kinds
(10:36):
of characters as usually strong central female characters, there's also
amazing men and men who do evil things. And it's
the ones that are strong, often silent types not always strong,
and they are choosing to protect others, they're choosing to
do the right thing. Those are the you know, those
are the ones that really make things change in the book.
(10:59):
You know, the women who choose to keep standing up,
who choose to survive, find ways to survive. And also
the men who are there is like Detective Inspector Hank
Cooper as Andy Flynn from my first series. You know,
they're really an important part of making turning the tide,
making things safer for the community, and I think that
(11:20):
needs to be held up.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Are you in that process being an idealist? I mean,
is it someone who tire you an idealist that's what
where you would like it to be, or do you
think this is predominantly the case it is? Oh, it's
not the case.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, oh no, no, no, it's not the case. It
starts tell us otherwise. But we have to still draw
a line, right, Who are we as a community? Who
are we as a nation? Who are we as a people?
If we don't draw a line, if we don't say
this is what's okay and this is what isn't okay?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
You know, have rules, have rules, but also ethics, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
You know, And I think ethics are very important and
it's better actually for the individual if they make those choices,
because it's better for them. Their lives are going to
be better by being a better person. I'm not saying
a perfect person. It's perfect, and I'm not either, but
making those choices and drawing those lines. The moment we
(12:26):
decide that nothing has meaning, you can do whatever you want,
it doesn't matter. You know, you've got Yeah, but you've
also got a kind of a degradation of the human spirit.
And I don't think that I don't think it's helpful
to kind of hold that up as a you know,
as being okay, you shouldn't normalize that.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
That's interesting. I would mind as well just exploring that
a little bit. You said ethics, and you purposely didn't
say morals because morals seems to be associated with standards
sort of that type of stuff. Am I correct? I mean,
in just assessing what you just said, is are you
(13:08):
sort of parking morals over there? That's not really were
to raise. You're talking about ethics.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Look, I think it's starting to get into semantics when
we when we do that, because again it's like which
you know, which morals, which ethics are we talking about?
But I think we all understand what we mean by
being ethical. I think that's fairly clear. And I don't need, say,
a religion to tell me what's right or wrong, because
I can feel and know that the ethics tell me
(13:36):
that actually hurting someone's not not great and it's also
not great for me, and it's not great for you know,
my human spirit. And I do believe we have a spirit, right,
I don't need to say what that I don't know
what that is. I'm not the person who can tell
you what that is. But there's something, and it matters
that we honor that, that we live with dignity and
(13:58):
with ethics. So yeah, I'm not sure about morals and religion.
I mean, that's a huge conversation. I'm not a theologian,
but I will say that you don't need to come
from a particular religious background to know that there is
there's a way to be that's kinder. There's a way
to be that's more ethical, and you can just in
(14:19):
your imperfect way try.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
When you say kinder, kinder as in kindness, it seems
to me to invoke things like that are basic virtues,
you know. And you know, when I was growing up
as a kid, virtues were discussed at lunchtime on Sundays
because there was nothing else for us to do watch.
I did have television, we didn't have intimated to have anything.
(14:46):
So family would older people talk to us younger people
about virtues They say, you know, but they're usually put
in a sentence. You know, he or she's toughest tea
you know, like good resilience, things about resilience, as you say, kindness, gratitude,
those sorts of things. Where in your books do you
try to take us down a journey from ethics and
(15:09):
into virtue. In other words, that person is quite virtuous
without saying those words, but you know, you're trying to
tell us that this person is quite virtuous, and are
you signaling what where you think society should be or
where it would be a nice place for society to be.
Is that the whole purpose of your books or is
it more just entertainment.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Look, it's entertainment, and it's a deep dive into the
human experience. You know. I've written now fifteen books, and
all of them are storytelling. They're all about people's lives.
They're all about regular people. I tend not to write
about generals and world leaders. I tend to write about
people who are impacted by the decisions of those those people,
(15:48):
or people who are impacted by you know, the long
shadow of war, by crime on the streets. I'm writing
about those types of people. Are they virtual? I don't know.
I don't think I've ever written that word in my books,
because again, when you get into virtue and morals, you know,
there's connotations there depending on you know, where you come
(16:10):
from as to what that means. I think ethics is
a is still not a It's not a word that
triggers people. I think virtue does a virtue signaling ideas,
the virtues and the sins and all this sort of thing.
Let's just like pull all that out of it. It's
actually really good to be a good person and just
be a decent person and try and you're not always
(16:33):
going to get it right, but there are, you know,
lines you can draw. I think being a bully is
not okay. Obviously hurting people is not okay. So using
violence to get what you want is not okay. But
there are other ways to negotiate, There other ways to
be and to contribute, and those are the things that
(16:53):
I think it's worthwhile showing. But resilience that you mentioned before,
and know that the key to so much of my work.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
It's about resilience, About your resilience or that's the or
is that the message to come from your work?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
That is a common thread of the central characters in
all of my books, And it is also something that
I think it's fair for me to say that I
share as well as a quality.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
So your books are fiction, how do you decide who
your fictional characters are going to be? I mean? Do
you you base it on a model of a person
that you've met or someone or a model of a
number of people you met? I mean, and do you
actually sit there and sort of straw man the individual
that this is your heroin and of the story, and
(17:41):
you also depict in the story. Do you build a
villain and a heroin? I mean, is that the game.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
To me storytelling is about It's not quite as black
and white, so there's always going to be grays for
the characters. Otherwise it's boring. I'm not doing cartoons. I mean,
there's some amazing cartoons and comics and graphic No they're
I'm looking for more nuanced. That's the substance of novel writing.
It gives you the opportunity to really get in there.
(18:08):
So it's never going to be black and white, and
they have to have a lot more substance than a
straw man, right or a straw woman. But what I
do is often start with the characters and I think,
what if this sort of person and this sort of
person clashed, what if they met, and what if they
met in a very dynamic time. So The Italian Secret,
(18:29):
which is my latest book, it's not out here for
a few months. It's said in nineteen forty eight, you have,
you know, the hangover around the world of a World war.
You have the political, economic, cultural.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Fallout of all of that, particular in Italy at the time.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Particularly in Italy at the time, and we have not
had books, I think, particularly in this genre, that have
focused on the fallout for people who are part of
access countries and didn't ask to be balmbed by literally everyone.
Right in Naples were bombed by both sides and living
in the underground. So it's that looking at real people,
(19:07):
how these events affect real people, and then imagining one
type of person another coming together for better or worse,
and setting off a chain of events. That's for me
where it begins and as I.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Write it changes.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
So for me, writing is a bit like I imagine
archaeology to be so, rather than a paint by numbers
or a kind of a way of like coding. I
work very much on feel. I've got a lump of clay,
there's some ideas, and I shape it, and I shape
it for like a year and a half until it
(19:43):
feels real to me that the characters speak to me,
the characters are alive, and I really feel something when
I'm rereading the story, and it can impact my readers
in a similar way. That's how I create. It's less methodical.
Is very disciplined, but less methodical, less plot driven than
(20:05):
some other writers. But I think that it works out
pretty well, and after twenty five years, it's still the
way that I work in books.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Do you is the subplotting of characteristics of your characters,
in other words, in nuancing them. Is that to keep
me off the trial? Like in other words, you know,
I don't want Mark as a reader to I think
he's really got this person down patterns exactly what the
(20:35):
deal is, because I want my Mark might stop the
book reading because he might get you word.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, mostly I think of you when I do write
the character. I'm very worried about Mark and what you're
going to do. No, for me, it's not so much
an intentional manipulation.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I don't like manipulating me.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, but you could be of you. But I mean
of readers, because there is a style of writing that's,
you know, a lot of plot twists, and we see
this in movies as well, where like there's like eight
plot twists at the end life. Nothing's really you know,
nothing's what you thought, and you know that can work.
But I'm not that kind of writer. It's not the
way my brain works. So what I want you to
(21:14):
do is to feel that the characters are real and
to empathize with them because I think compassionate empathy or
the natural result of learning about people.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
So what was.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
That person in Naples, you know, how did they survive
in the underground during the war while everything was bombarded
and their home was destroyed? And what about that private
investigator in Australia and Sydney post war, who you know
is very unpopular because she's a divorcee and she's a
woman in a man's field. And everybody wants the returned
(21:50):
soldiers to have jobs, but you know, women should get
back in the kitchen. What was it like for them?
And it doesn't kind of matter whether you're male or
female inside of politics. You are, how old you are,
whether you've got an Italian background and an Australian background,
you kind of go. I can walk a little bit
in their shoes just through this book. So there's plot,
and I think it mix for a better story when
(22:13):
you can do that.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Is the fiction reader the person of your book? Are they?
And I guess you understand these people better than anybody,
But they am entering in a form of voyeurism. In
other words, I'm never going to experience this in my life,
(22:37):
but I would really love to know what someone coming
out of World War two in forty eight in Naples,
how they actually survive their life? I mean, and how
much of you know? Is that a thing that people
do in the world, Like, it's not my go but
there must be people in the world who do this,
who live their life by reading books and maybe watching
(22:57):
movies and stuff like that or a series, but who
are actually really keen to know what it would be
like to be this person. Is that who you're writing
to or are you writing that to yourself? Oh?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
I'm exploring characters and bringing them to life. It's a
creative pursuit. I don't think we can pigeonhole readers, just
like I don't think people who watch reality TV are mindless,
you know, drones watching something and voyeuristically living through others.
I think that people are a bit more complicated and
(23:33):
a bit more interesting than that.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Actually.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
But books have a special ability to be time machines.
Books have a special ability to be you know, compassion
machines to be used for learning, but most of all
for entertainment. And that's what I'm writing. I'm writing to
engage a reader, and when I'm diving into dark territory,
(24:00):
when I'm touching on things like the Holocaust or destruction
of culture in Naples or whatever it is that I'm
bringing into a book fighting Nazis. I mean, that's what
my character does through a lot of her books. When
I'm when I'm looking into that, it's got to grip
the reader. You got to want to read it, and yeah,
you're gonna be touching on part of the stuff because
(24:22):
it's actually part of our.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Life and our world.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
All of us have grandparents who were impacted in some way,
our families were impacted in some way, and so I
don't want to write about the small I actually want
to be able to look at the big picture but
personalize it with characters that I've frankly made up but
from an amalgam of real life people and characteristics. Billy
(24:46):
Walker my main character, for example, she's a private investigator
in Sydney, and she's kind of like if Philip Marlow
was ava Gardener, but she's a she's got touch of
you know, Virginia Hall, she's got a touch of Martha
Girl Horne, all these really interesting real life women of
the time, which is not any of them, but there's
a sense of a sense of the film noir women
(25:08):
we see in black and white, you know, the Laura
and Bacoles with their shoulder pads and their toughness, and
that's fun, but also it's touching on something real and
I think you always have to, you know, have your
finger on that is.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
And we'll move on in my move. But I'm actually
intree boilists. But is writing fiction and you've done a
number of books, and you've really done one every two
years probably since your twenties, yea, on average? Is fiction
writing for you apart from being what you do in
terms of your business career, et cetera. Is it to
(25:50):
tease us to see what what excites human humans? I mean,
and obviously it is. But are you trying to find
out what excites us like especially when you talk about
the dark territory, you know, like dark characters. Or is
(26:11):
it just a business for you?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Oh God, if it was just a business for me,
I probably wouldn't be writing.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Novels because we know that much money it is not.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It is a very time intensive and it's you know,
last ask any artists of any sort, they're just not
going to it would not be smart to get into
it for the money. It's got to be where your
passion lie. Otherwise, honestly, you won't get through the writing
of a book, and you certainly won't be able to
sell it because it's hollow. You know, you can't do
(26:43):
it as a formula. There are times I wish that
I could, because I could be more prolific, you know,
but that's not what I'm about, not as an advocate,
which you know that work is free, and not as
a novelist, and that work is modestly paid, even with
some success. I'm very grateful for I'm grateful that I
(27:04):
can continue to write because I continue to have readers
who want to buy my books, and without them, I
wouldn't be able to carve out the time to continue
to do what I love. I started writing when I
was ten from my classmates at elementary school, at Torque
Elementary and there's like loose leaf binders that were in
my dad's attic of you know, Stephen Kings style novelettes
(27:25):
and little stories that I wrote with cartoons in the
corner and little doodles and stuff. And I've just always
loved storytelling and to me as a documentary maker, as
a podcast maker, as an investigative journalist, as an author,
and as a speaker. It's really all about the best
(27:46):
medium for bringing that story to life. I actually don't
care if it's spoken word. If it's written word, I
can't act, so someone else have to do that for me.
But if it's me on the screen explaining something in
documentary like Tough Nuts Australia's Hardest Criminals, if it's a
podcast like The Men in the Balaklava, it's a criminal investigation,
(28:09):
or if it's a historical fiction book. There's different ways
to touch on what matters in the world. And sometimes
it's through art and sometimes it's plain documentary telling, and
I think they're all valid, and so that is my passion,
I think, is to continue to tell people's stories, especially
(28:30):
I'm going to say the undertold stories.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
What does that mean? Undertold is the people that Are
they stories that people avoid or are they stories that
just haven't really surfaced? We just haven't told them enough.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I don't think we can say that women have avoided
having their stories told, but I think that women, particularly
when we're looking at the nineteen forties, it took a
long time to recognize women's contributions in world War two,
and we can extrapolate that out to all kinds of
situations for women generally. But isn't it kind of more
(29:02):
interesting as a reader too. We've seen a lot of
that period written about, we haven't seen it written about
in Australia. So international readers are very interested in my
books because they're set in Sydney, right, They're very interested
in my books because hey, it's Naples. There were supposed
to be the bad guys, but now we've actually got
some understanding of what real people went through. Here's a
(29:24):
female private investigator. Did they exist?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Is there a bunch of film noir about them or
a bunch of Golden age thriller novels about them?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
No?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Their stories are undertold, but they still existed. And I
think that makes for frankly more interesting writing for me
as a person has to live with it for a
couple of years while I write it. But it makes
for more interesting reading as well. We're not just hearing
the same story.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
You mentioned that, you mentioned what efficacy and you know,
when I was doing some reviews on you, human rights
is a big issue for you. Women's rights are big
issue for you. Probably maybe not so much women's rights.
But abuse of women's rights is probably a bigger, bigger
issue for you outside of your fiction writing. Where do
(30:12):
you sit on that now? What are you doing now
in relationion to your advocacy? What's advocacy work are you doing? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Well, all types. So I've just recovered from complex regional
pain syndrome, which I'm in remission for.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
But I can't ask you what is that? So?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Complex regional pain syndrome is a little understood severe pain condition.
It's believed to have neurological components, immune components, inflammatory components,
and it can result in amputation necessary amputation. It results
usually it's usually in a limb, and it can result
(30:47):
in the loss of that limb with a loss of.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Use of that limb as a result of the pain.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
It's more complex than the pain, but the brain essentially,
I'm going to oversimplify it, but if you were to
imagine that the brain is cutting itself off from the
painful limb, that would get you some way to understanding
how it works. You have reduced circulation, or you have
a edma in huge amounts of circulation. It's very painful
(31:13):
for people and generally it's very difficult for them to
use the affected limb.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
It is a recognized disease. Yes, it is. It's not
something that's contentious. It's not.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
No, it's not. Well, it's contentious in that people don't
know what causes it, so there's debate about the cause,
but there's no debate about the existence of it. And
it was first written about during the Civil War in fact,
so people who were you know, survived the trauma of
war would sometimes end up with these injuries, and that
had various names over the years.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
So you had this. I still have it.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
It's not curable, but I'm in remission so now I
can walk. Still working on getting my fitness back after
many years in a wheelchair. In fact, I had ripped
arms because I had a manual chair, so I was
like very limb to Hamilton, it was you know, I
kind of missed.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
My ripped biceps.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
But it's really nice to be able to be upright
and to use my legs again and to be mobile.
So during that period I did a lot of disability
advocacy and a lot of pain advocacy, including here in
Australia and with Parliament, particularly on things like legalizing medical marijuana,
getting more people access to different, different options to handle
(32:23):
their pain, because pain management is a human right. Okay,
So now that I've recovered and I'm in remission, it's
not that disability issues don't matter to me.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
They do.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
It's just that people who are disabled right now are
better placed to have the spotlight on them to talk
about those issues. So what I am doing is continuing
my twenty some year advocacy on human rights and on
women's and girls' rights. And I have a podcast that
dropped just this week around the time of International Women's
(32:56):
Day called There's No Place Like Home After She Leaves.
It's season three of an award winning podcast, and it's
focusing on domestic and family violence, which can happen to
everyone and and does happen to all kinds of people
in Australia, but it's very often, you know, disproportionately affecting
(33:16):
women and kids, and telling those stories is very harrowing
but important. So a woman is still killed in Australia
every nine days by a partner or former partner every
nine days, every nine days, and in fact last year
it was every four days for a period.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Is that every get reported?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Oh yeah, that's under that's that's reported, but it's I mean,
the newspapers are on occasionally, but only really on International
Women's Day. It seems to me that that's like the
one day we all kind of look at this tragic
fact and kids also, you know, kids are very heavily
affected by this. So in the first episode, for example,
(33:54):
we're talking to doctor Anne O'Neill and she was shot
by her her husban and who she'd separated from, shot shot,
and he murdered their two children in bed at the
same time, shot her and then himself, And it's this
sort of it's this sort of situation which we can
do more to reduce the risk of by allowing avenues
(34:18):
for women to get out of get safely out of
dangerous situations. And in this case, she had separated, she
had you know, they're always asked like, why didn't you leave?
She did leave, but that's often the most dangerous time.
And that's the focus of this podcast is kind of
debunking that myth that will women just stick around and
(34:38):
actually recognizing the dangers and what we can do to
help them. And some of that is financial, some of
that is social, and just I guess recognizing the cues
and doing more for those around us who are in
a vulnerable situation.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
It's interesting you you should mention that to me because
some just brought to you of I did not podcast
with somebody and Julia Morris, and Julie was telling me
that when she got divorced from her husband, she discovered
that nothing was in her name. Everything was in his name.
And I just want to ask you what you think
about this, because one of the banks came in which
(35:17):
I thought was fantastic and actually sat down with her,
So a bank other than the one that her and
husband were banking with. I won't say the name of
the bank, but they actually offered to through her lawyer,
to come and sit with her and show her how
to download of the apps set up the account. You know,
she'd been in the income owner, in the business all
(35:38):
their married lives. He was a stay at home dad,
but he managed everything, if you know what I mean,
behind the scenes in terms of money's coming in, money's
going out. And she had no idea how this was
going to work. And do you think it's important in
this environment, just in terms of women becoming on their
own and women having the ability to go out, go
(36:00):
away from the domestic environment, whether it's violent or whether
it's just not working, and perhaps take the kids with them.
How important is it for corporations, banks and all those
people we interact with to actually to be preemptive and
go and say, hey, why don't I come and see
you and I'll show you how to fix this up
(36:21):
as soon as leaving them to do the best.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I think it's extremely important and I'm glad you raised it.
Financial abuse as it's called a big factor in a
lot of abusive relationships. So it may well be this
controlling aspect, and often it's not even so much that
the woman does. Sometimes she will know, sometimes she doesn't know.
But even if she knows they're controlling it, there's punishment
(36:46):
or more abuse if they try to intervene in that
or if they question it. So you've got a very
dangerous situation, and it's going to be something that prevents
a woman from taking herself or herself and the kids
out of a dangerous situation because they literally they don't
have somewhere to go, they don't have money to access,
and it's just another form of control. So some banks
(37:09):
are onto this and they have programs in Canada as well.
And as we said, I'm a Canadian Australian dual citizen.
There are some programs where there's money that can be
accessed with certain parameters, obviously within twenty four hours. So
when the request is made, it's like, this is an emergency.
I need to get to a safe place, usually a
(37:31):
safe place that the perpetrator or abuser or a partner
does not know about, right and it needs to happen
now because we know that the majority of those women
who are murdered by a current or former partner have
either separated or they have started making plans to or
announced such. That's actually the majority. So this is something
(37:52):
the podcast focuses on in the financial aspect of that
is actually something we shouldn't underestimate.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Should governments get involved in, because I think if we
just leave it, advocacy is really important at starting point,
someone has to talk about it, and a podcast like this,
we need policies. Well that's what it's going to say.
But you're doing. What you're doing is not going to
change anythink it might prompt something we need ask you do.
(38:20):
We need governments to say, well, here's our policy in
relation to this. And by the way, we're going to
make it okay for the bank to breach confidentiality because
banks will say, well, hang on a minute, you know
the accounts in the name of the husband. We're worried
that if we give you some information or we let
you access that money, we're going to get sued by
that individual or his lawyer.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
But what about a fund that's put aside for emergencies
like this, that isn't actually from that pool of funds,
but recognizes that whatever pool of funds, there is something
that both partners have a rate to. So if she
can't get to it, it doesn't matter right now. What
matters if she stays alive and stay alive and we
can get that money back later. As opposed to going like,
(39:05):
oh we need to you know, give access and go
through all these different there's a way to simplify it.
Get them out now, get them safe now, and that
needs to be prioritized. There's a there's a leaving home
program in Canada, for example, that does that within a
twenty four hour period. There are some banks here in
Australia who are really actively looking at this and have
(39:27):
opened up the possibility to just come and get you
some help some assessment, as you mentioned, and this is
really important, but we need government policies and we know
we've really let women down as well in terms of
you know, safe houses, places to go. They don't, you know,
most of the positions are already taken. For the most part.
(39:50):
There's wait lists for people to actually get out of
the house and have somewhere to stay. So on the
one hand, we want to say it's wonderful to be
a mom. We love kids, so we want great families
to stick together. But on the other hand, when things
get tough, there's nowhere for them to go, and we
need to provide that support because they haven't been, you know,
having nine to five jobs.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
They've been caring for others. You just reminded me of something.
But in the nineties, the only reason I know because
I was helping them out a bit. But there was
a village, it's called the Vincentin Village running but the
Vincente Village is down not far from where we are here.
Were in dulling Us. It was down at eas Sydney
(40:32):
and it was an old building. But they the ladies
who worked there told me that their busiest time for
single mums who were escaping an abusive relationship, whatever it
may have been, who came with their kids, and usually
they came with the kids of just that nothing, just whatever,
the clothes they had on and the shoes they had on,
and was the busiest time was Christmas time, around the
(40:55):
christ period, And of course you know that they had
no money. I mean looking for help to help these
families out.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
And if you don't have a refuge for them to go.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
To, it's a refuge.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
If you don't have a refuge, or you don't have
a program that allows them to get into a motel
quickly or some other way, because a lot of them
have been isolated as well, so that financial abuse is
one form of very important control right, but also separation
from family, friends and isolation is often a tactic used
by abusers as well. So they really don't have somewhere
(41:30):
to go. We need to make sure that they do,
otherwise we end up seeing them on the front page
of the paper with another tragedy. And we've all seen
far too many of those, so it is avoidable. Maybe
not in every circumstance, but those numbers are far too
much in every single one of these lives matters, And
I think that we can do it, just do a lot.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
More, you know, one of these And one of the
things I've noticed because I've been doing it, look at
helping him out, Chris. A lot of times there's kids
who don't even be a runners or you know ic
go and my sons and I we used to trying
and help them out and give them some money by
shoes or stuff. But one of the changes I've noticed from
nineteen ninety six when I first started to twenty twenty
(42:11):
four last year is that I now see less Australians,
like what would be considered a normal Australian, you know,
like you know, some of an English background, English don't
smear or whatever it is. I'm now noticing that a
lot of these individuals who are going to this particular refuge,
refuge the refuge now moved, it's in Crown Street. But
(42:32):
foreign people, people come in from another country.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
If you've got a multicultural city. We do know that
immigrant women or immigrant families experience more abuse.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah totally, you know that.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yeah, Indigenous women experience more abuse. So I think it
just depends on who's in that local community, and we
know that they're going to be more vulnerable if they've
come from overseas, they don't know people, they may have
less at their disposal, less less support, less financial.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Support, they don't know the bank, they probably don't Misspeak
English very well. And it seems to me that there's
a lot more of that going on now. And I
actually went through and you can nearly look at the
immigration policy of Australia relative to who I was seeing.
And I think back at now over a thirty year period,
(43:20):
the types of people who were seeking refuge at around
this period that I never got involved with the Chris's period.
They would give me a call, but I'm sure it
happens all year round. But I've actually I can actually
see the different types of nationalities coming through the place.
And isolation. Used to use the word isolation. If you're
a refugee from another country and you come here and
you're in a bad relationship and you've got to leave,
(43:42):
you're actually more isolated than anybody else. You don't know anybody, that's.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Right, And the risk of fatalities is even higher for
any group where they are more isolated. And so that
is often women who are from an immigrant background, women
who are indigenous, women who come from a lower socioeconomic group.
It can impact anyone but those particular groups. The stats
are staggering and tragic, and you know it's it's the women,
(44:08):
but also and sometimes men. But it's the women for
the most part who bear the brunt of this and
their kids.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Why is Tara Rey so interested in this? What is
it that makes you choose this mission because it matters?
Is it because you can make a difference perhaps, or
you want to make it? Think it matters? I think
(44:35):
telling them and I support one with one such refuge,
and I have done for thirty years. But I think
I think that it matters. I don't advocate for it,
and I just well, I'm.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Glad you are right now because you're shining a light
and allowing space on your program to talk about it.
So you are talking about it right now, and that
makes a difference. You might not be well placed to
speak to the experiences of women who have, you know,
had an abusive relationship. But I think that if I'm
given a spotlight, I can use the profile I have
(45:09):
in ways that are useful.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
That's good. What else is the use of it.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
I've always felt that it was a Dalai lama who said,
I live. I'm quoting the Dalai Lama, but he said
that the purpose of life is to be happy and useful, right,
and I think, you know, I think that's going to
be sometimes. It's going to be a one on one
with someone. Sometimes, if you're lucky enough and privileged enough
(45:36):
to have a microphone, you might be doing something like this.
But I'm just talking about stuff that's real. It's not
you know, this is the real stuff. My fiction is
informed by it. My fiction is my work. This is
just talking about real stuff. And if it makes some difference,
it helps to turn the spotlight a little bit towards
(45:58):
something that's been in the shadow that maybe needs illuminating,
then then great. And when people are no longer interested
in talking to me, I hope someone else is doing
it too. And there's already lots of people doing it.
But I mean, we need a lot of people to
talk about these things because they're not fun subjects, they're
not entertaining, and it's hard to accept that this is
(46:21):
happening in our communities. But yeah, we've got to talk
about it.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
The podcast that you're doing now, said the new podcast. Yes,
there's no place like home, there's more to it no place.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
There's no place like home after she leaves Season three,
and what we're focusing on in this season is specifically
what happens after separation because there is this confused idea.
I mean, the women are often asked and why don't
you just leave? You know, or we'll see some tragedy
(46:51):
that's taken place. I won't even mention the horrific things
we've seen on the front page, and they'll just say,
why didn't she just leave? Well, I'll tell you why.
It's in the podcast. We've got the survivors of these
incidents talking about it. We know the stories of those
who didn't survive that. We're talking to police, we're talking
to experts, and they'll explain that this is the most
(47:14):
dangerous time is actually when you leave, they double down
on the control if they're an abuser, and that will
often be using violence. So we need to stop the
victim blaming there and kind of the question of like, oh,
why didn't you just leave? Like it's so easy when
we know the stats don't support that attitude, and we
should we should do more to support people who are
(47:37):
in those vulnerable situations rather than questioning like, oh, why
didn't you leave last week before you know this tragedy
occurred with your kids.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
We're an election circle right now and in Canada too,
and you guys, of course, are battling your fiftieth state
just below us, take control of you.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Thank you for Yeah, it's our for teenth Province are overblown.
Fourteenth Province just south of where I live, like I
mean literally by a few miles, so I'm very close
to the border there, and things are tense, things are
really tense. So yeah, there's like open discussions of invading Canada,
like we're you know, the current administration in America has
(48:22):
taken their closest ally, their closest trade partner, and said
I'm going to cripple you economically unless you let me
take over your sovereignty, become a non country and become
part of the US. So that is galvanized Canadians across
the political spectrum. If you're a conservative, you don't mess
(48:42):
with sovereignty, you don't mess with the national character and say, okay,
now we suddenly don't exist as a country that's been
around for so long, and as a progressive. It's also
appalling on a variety of levels as well, So literally
the whole country is united. Well it is, especially in
these divisive political times. It's certainly brought us all together
(49:05):
and it's it's scary.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Times given our political landscape. Or the election has not
been announced, but clearly with their own election mode. Do
you think this your show, your podcast which both has
been dropped as released it just was released, yes, which
like the first apps, Lady been out there we find
on Spotify and all the usual places, all the good places,
(49:29):
I guess. So given that, do you think that it's
something that the two contenders should be considering.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
They should be paying attention to it? Absolutely? I think
the stats here in Australia are appalling and we need
to do better. And a safer community is a more
productive community. A safer community is just a better place
to be. And no one would want these situations for
their family members, right for their daughter, for their for
their grandkids. So it doesn't matter your political persuasion. I
(50:01):
think you should care about this.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
As Sue, So no brain. It's funny, you know, we
keep talking about the standard living, you know, and when
we assess the standard living in Australia generally speaking, take
you know, gross domestic product divided by the population numbers,
and we just look at it like a really high
level economic number, when in fact, if another thing that
we maybe should be looking at and putting a value
(50:23):
on is the unhappiness of people who live in these
sorts of relationships as relative to our standard living. In
other words, if we got the highest domestic abuse per
capital in the world and just making this number up,
if we had, therefore our stand of living is not
very good.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
No, it's not. Well, we're we're letting things down at
a pretty fundamental level. Yeah, right, if we don't look
after the most vulnerable. I'm not saying do everything for them, like, oh,
you know, but we need to have a safety net
when things go wrong, because guess what, wealth, health and
safety is not an eternal fact that you can count
(51:01):
on and every moment of your life, things happen, and
that's when we need community, and that's when we need
policies so that we can survive it, come out the
other side and actually have rallied together and support one another.
And that's what I think is really important is to
remember that in today's individualistic society, you know, remember that
(51:21):
sometimes we need community actually to survive.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
What would you say to either Peter Dutton who's the
opposition leader, and or anything alban Is used the current
prime minister, both of whom want to become the next
prime minister of the country, who are currently both running
a narrative around the cyclone is about to hit northern
New South Wales and southeast Queensland and they're a lockstep
(51:48):
about how important is for the country to look after
all these people, which is great, but very rarely ever
talk about this topic, which is an ongoing thing. Cyclones
happen once every thirty forty years, and I get it's
important a Nichue. We don't want people to get hurt
or anyone want people to stay safe, Yeah, we totally,
but we also want individuals to stay safe and the
(52:09):
kids stay stay safe on a daily basis forever. Yeah,
not on every thirty year cycle. What would you say
to those two now who are on an election cycle,
what would you want them to pay attention and what
would you perhaps want them to start to the narrative
that they might be able to start to talk about,
because but it will be sitting right there again in
(52:30):
a few weeks. I'm so earth in the Albanize you
know I actually tell them about it, or what would
you like to say to them.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
I would like to say, listen to survivors, listen to
advocates in the space, because they have knowledge, they have expertise,
and this matters even if they're not personally affected by
it right now. It matters for Australia. It matters for Australians.
What happens behind closed doors might be invisible to them,
(52:56):
but it has a profound impact on Australian families, on
the future of this country and on what's happening on
the ground right now. And that's why something like the
cyclone again, you need community support. Right people are going
to be in distress and crisis. They're going to need
somewhere to stay. The case, that's also the case for
(53:16):
those who are experiencing danger, crisis and violence behind closed doors, right,
So don't forget them just because they're invisible to you
right now. And policies that support the community in that way,
that support women and girls and kids are policies that
make a stronger country. And we know that down the line.
(53:37):
You know, you can look at any example and we
know that to be the case. So don't forget them.
Just because they're not sitting next to you right now,
just because they might be experiencing this in a place
you don't see, they're still there and they still need
our help.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Is that part of the when you say you are
interested in and you write about it and you advocate
for when you say the darker things are happening, not
so much the light, but the things that are happening in
the darkness, is it as much about darkness as it
is about it is invisible? In other words, it's not
in our face day to day, correct, and it's not
(54:13):
talked about. The cyclone's there. You know, all the news
formats are all going to talk about it because it's
newsworthy and it makes a good story. But this stuff
doesn't really make a good story and it's hard to hear.
So you're bringing out the invisible.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
That's what I think is important. That's something that I'm
able to do right now. People won't give it, damn
what I say later. When I have a microphone now,
I do want to have it to use my voice
in a way that might be useful maybe right And
one of the ways we can do that is to
illuminate the things that are in the shadows or to
make visible the things that are less visible, and I
(54:49):
do try to do that, have a track record of
doing that on various issues over the last couple of decades,
and I'll continue to do so as long as I'm useful.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Well, it's actually very interesting. Appreciate you coming in entire ray.
But I think the definition or the description of abuse
in families, particularly women and usually their kids as well.
And whatever the abuse is, whether it's financial, physical, whatever
it is, is invisible, and sometimes we tend to not
(55:21):
want to look at it. We sort of it's very difficult,
it's quite confronting. I prefer you prefer not to think
about it too often. And maybe I'm even someone like
that because I think about it Christmas time. Only Bay
contacts me. But it's not something I think about day
to day. And therefore, you know, none of us are
because we've got to write all the other stuff we've
got to do it get through. But governments should have
(55:45):
a constant monitor in this stuff.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
They should have budget, they should have policies, they should
have refuges because it saves lives and like you said,
standard of living, How can we really calculate that when
so many people fall through the cracks. Because they're invisible
doesn't mean they aren't Australians and they need our help.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
Are No.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
The governments should actually be on top of this, and
we know that that's good government policy. It just often
gets shifted by other issues, right, other priorities. And I
do think we need more women in politics in part
for this very reason. Their perspectives, their knowledge, their expertise
is going to be a little bit different, their life
experience is different, and they're may be more well placed
(56:30):
to look at the issues that haven't been prioritized quite
as much. Right, it's not a strictly gendered issue, but
it is largely gendered as well, So looking at that
it just brings in a better pool of thinkers around
issues that maybe haven't been looked at as much. And
if I look back to my books in this period
of the nineteen forties, you know, no crime was committed
(56:51):
unless the woman was murdered. She couldn't leave a relationship
because she was being abused. It had to be adultery
or she's dead, right, I mean that's where we've come from.
It's not so long ago, so there's still a taboo
around this there's still an idea that you know, domestic violence.
It's not the same as a king hit and king's cross.
(57:12):
It's not the same as the you know, the violence
that we see on the streets around the battlefield or
indeed in a in a cyclone. It's just kind of
between two people that are just going to have to
deal with it in private. And we know that that
is that devastating kind of history is something we're still
picking apart and trying to get away from. The taboos
(57:36):
around that, the assumptions around that, and the invisibility of
it are all obstacles to what I would call justice, fairness,
and greater safety. And I want that greater safety from
my daughter. You know, we all want that for our
families and for the future.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
I think I think we were one of that I
want for the nation. So Tyree, thanks for very much
for shining the light on what is invisible. It is invisible,
but it shouldn't be invisible. And I just wonder where
the word domestic violence is not a very good adjective
to use a relation of violence because the domestic softens it.
(58:12):
I agree, domestic is probably is a dumb word. Yes,
I mean, it's violence at home.
Speaker 2 (58:18):
But family violent. Family violence is maybe a little bit better.
But not all people experiencing violence at home or a family,
so they're not always with kids. But I agree, it's
you know, it has been spoken of as being maybe problematic,
perhaps dismissive, again because of that history. It's a domestic matter.
It's a domestic matter, and it was really used in
(58:40):
a way that was quite dismissive. So yeah, give me
a better word for it. Mark, let's see.
Speaker 1 (58:45):
I can't think, but I'm now thinking. But no, thanks
from much for getting my attention on this, and I'm
not appreciate and our audience for that matter, from making
the time. You're most welcome in good Luck and podcast. Yeah,
Him, I boris and this is straight talk ty right. Welcome,
by the way, welcome back to Australia.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Thank you. I'm just like right off the plane and
slightly jagged pretty much. Yeah, so thank you for the
coffee and the conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
That's amazing. You just got off a plane from Canada
and you look amazing like I got off a plane
yesterday from la and I look like jack shit, you
look terrific, mother god Like, how does that happen? How
does that happen?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Actually it was a bag of ice I put. I
had ice on my face.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
You know the tricks. Yeah, you've got to after the years, right, well,
actually that might take Let's go back a little way back, way,
way way back up when I first knew of you.
Australian's first new of you. You're a model back in
those days. And and I didn't get surprised when you
walked into the studio because you are quite tall relative
(00:50):
to me anyway, and and I'm not particularly short, but
I'm not particularly tall. You're quite a tall woman. You
were a well known model in Australia and around the
place around the world. What is it like being pigeonholed
as a young girl, a young woman, I should say
as that person.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well I'm not a young woman anymore, but I remember
what it was like. I remember when my first novel
came out in nineteen ninety nine. It was called Fetish.
It hit Australia first, and.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
This right pod by the way, Yeah that's.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Right, nineteen ninety nine we launched at the Police and
Justice Museum. It was like a highlight of my life
because I'd wanted to be a published novelist since I
was a little kid. And what immediately happened was this
rumor campaign that my books couldn't have possibly been written
by me because I was model. So there was this
kind of question about whether I could string words together
(01:47):
because people take my photograph and it was very surreal
at the time. I think when I'd been working as
a model to pay the bills, I hadn't really considered
how people would take that as meaning so much more.
You know that being photographed means you can't do these
other things. And of course a lot of models I
worked with putting themselves through college and doing all kinds
(02:10):
of other things to pay, you know, and modeling to
pay the rent. But there are you know, stereotypes around
people like that. I was blonde at the time, a
model in my twenties, you know, I fit a few
stereotypes at once, and so I remember being told by
a producer at one point, Oh, you're the dumb blonde
who isn't and going like what does that even mean?
(02:31):
Like this is so bizarre to me. So it was
a strange introduction to publishing in that way. But my
fifteenth book is coming out later this year and it
feels like another lifetime ago that those rumors were there.
And indeed, a polygraph test I don't know if you
know about that one mark. So polygraph, of course is
a lie detective test. And when my second book Split
(02:54):
launched in two thousand and two in Australia, I was
dared by a journalist, pretty fabulous woman actually at the
Australian newspaper to take a polygraph test to prove that
I write my own books. So I ended up being
polygraph tested by you know, a cop who normally you know,
he tests like suspected rapists and pedophiles and me a
(03:16):
suspected author. And I had the armbands, big momonometer on
and the newmotubes and the you know little thing on
the end of the finger that measures your perspiration. And
off we went and I ended up with a thirty
three page report saying guilty is charged. I write books
and that was my strange introduction to publishing, the publishing
(03:38):
world in Australia.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
You are born in Canada, yes, but you lived in Australia.
You're a dual citizen. Let's call it. Yeah, that's crime. Yes.
And you know, we know about your modeling career. You've
sort of given us a bit of an update on it.
But what is it about you? Because you just mentioned
the place you launched your first book? What was Police
Injustice Museum? Museum is down Circular Key. That's great and
(04:02):
not many people who probably know about it. But it's
a museum. I remember, so I would to walk past
me and took my office out that way in the city.
But the Police and Justice Museum is I think it's
an old courthouse, yes, and there would have been a
gil in the back of it. And it was probably
one of the first police court, one of the first courthouses, which,
(04:23):
by the way, in those days judges or the magistrates
were police. Probably in Sydney. What is it that it
gives you a fascination about crime. That's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
I guess I'm interested in the light and the dark.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I'm interested in what.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Is illuminated and what is left in shadow. And I
think to really understand the human condition, to get a
rule well, to be alive, and to really know what's
going on around you, you actually do have to look
at both. So I think most people would agree I'm
a pretty positive, upbeat person, but I still write a
about some quite heavy topics at times, and I think
(05:02):
that's just simply being real, being in the moment, being present.
If I only wrote all kind of love and light
and there was no shadow, I don't think it would
be as real or as interesting. And when I write
about dark subjects, I want to have my facts right,
so I go a long way from my research. I
spend time with police officers. I've spent time with FBI agents.
(05:25):
I've been to Quantico. Quantico is the FBI academy that's
in the US, so I spent time at the actual academy.
Those of you who like Silence of Lambs would recognize
that was I think, at the time, certainly the only
film that was shot allowed to shoot actually at the Academy,
so some of those scenes are actually shot there at Quantico.
(05:49):
I'm just fascinated by what goes on behind the scenes,
and I don't want to have a view of life
that is artificial. I want to know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
It's actually when you talk about the darker light, just
parked light over here for a second. Just I'm actually
fascinated by dark And you know, I've got friends I
grew up with. You know, some of them been to Jaile,
some of who sort of participate in all sorts of
unusual things. And where I grew up, which was a
(06:22):
long way out west, it was unusual to have these
types of friends. A lot of them were had terrible
upbringings and stuff like that. In fact, I've had a
few of them on my show where they talked about,
you know, being and Jeff murder and stuff of that.
One of the reasons they they believe that they were
in this position is because a lot of these guys,
(06:42):
these the men who I have had involved with, were
actually abused as children to suffered abusic lives. And I
see that as the dark and that abuse can just
repeat itself.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
The cycle of violence is very serious.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
And it's nearly like they're doing the only thing. And
a lot of them were. Unfortunately I didn't never have
the opportunity to be educated. Some of them don't even
read it right. Still, and I always find and fascinating
that society is prepared to make judgment on these individuals
as opposed to.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Well, I think if you commit murderer, it's probably fair
to have a judgment on that.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, but not but where I'm probably wrong at You're right,
they can't be doing it because of a dangerous society,
but may make judgment on their character as opposed to
sort of trying and understand what is it that made
them this person. Now I'm not saying I'm giving you,
I'm not giving you any excuses at all. But what
I find fascinating is what made them that person. That's
(07:39):
the dark that I'm very interested in. Is that something
that sort of fascinates you like or are you more
interested in learning about it as opposed to your I'm
just fascinated, But are you interested in learning about it
and then telling us about it?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I think all of the above. I'm interested in the
human experience, so I'm interested in what makes people tick.
I'm interested in the things that people still I'm interested
in their stories, and I guess if you look at
the last twenty five years of my advocacy, I have
been very interested and focused on survivors and kind of
(08:12):
like people who have pulled themselves up so they could
have got caught in that cycle of violence, and there
would be lots of reasons, you know, we know the stats,
as you've pointed out, that there's this cycle, but they
chose to do something different, and I find something in
that very inspiring, you know. And I think also that
we need to look at the fact that life is
(08:35):
in all roses. I love roses, but life is sadly
not all roses. And we shouldn't be pigeonholed by something
that someone else did to us. We shouldn't be pigeonholed
by the biggest tragedy that comes through our lives. And yeah,
we shouldn't necessarily be pigeonholed by something that we did
that was wrong that we've learned from we've maybe done
(08:55):
our time for so again, not making any excuses, but
it's all too easy to us dismiss people, and actually
they often have a lot to teach us, and that
I think is very interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Well, in your time studying this sort of stuff and
probably in viewing these types of individuals, I'm sure you've
had exposure to them. What have you learned that you
might better share with us? But if you learned about
the difference between someone who's just lived that whole life
doing that stuff, and you know, probably has a fair explanation,
(09:29):
it's not an excuse, but an explanation as to why
they're that person compared to the people who are able
to survive the trauma that they're going to choose to
do early on and been able to turn themselves around
and not going down that track. What have you learned?
What's the difference to decide to choose I'm not going
(09:49):
to be that person.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Kindness and compassion is such a strength, So we're looking
at really the strongest people out there are the people
who allow themselves to continue to feel to be vulnerable,
to receive love even if they weren't given that as
a kid. You know, that's brave and that is strength
to me. And I think that often in our mainstream culture,
(10:13):
you know, we're given a certain particularly with masculinity, we're
given a certain snapshot of what that's supposed to look like,
and we don't often give enough space in that for vulnerability, emotion,
quiet strength instead of brute strength. Right, So I like
to kind of illuminate that part of it. And when
you read my books, you'll find that there's all kinds
(10:36):
of characters as usually strong central female characters, there's also
amazing men and men who do evil things. And it's
the ones that are strong, often silent types not always strong,
and they are choosing to protect others, they're choosing to
do the right thing. Those are the you know, those
are the ones that really make things change in the book.
(10:59):
You know, the women who choose to keep standing up,
who choose to survive, find ways to survive. And also
the men who are there is like Detective Inspector Hank
Cooper as Andy Flynn from my first series. You know,
they're really an important part of making turning the tide,
making things safer for the community, and I think that
(11:20):
needs to be held up.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Are you in that process being an idealist? I mean,
is it someone who tire you an idealist that's what
where you would like it to be, or do you
think this is predominantly the case it is? Oh, it's
not the case.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, oh no, no, no, it's not the case. It
starts tell us otherwise. But we have to still draw
a line, right, Who are we as a community? Who
are we as a nation? Who are we as a people?
If we don't draw a line, if we don't say
this is what's okay and this is what isn't okay?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
You know, have rules, have rules, but also ethics, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
You know, And I think ethics are very important and
it's better actually for the individual if they make those choices,
because it's better for them. Their lives are going to
be better by being a better person. I'm not saying
a perfect person. It's perfect, and I'm not either, but
making those choices and drawing those lines. The moment we
(12:26):
decide that nothing has meaning, you can do whatever you want,
it doesn't matter. You know, you've got Yeah, but you've
also got a kind of a degradation of the human spirit.
And I don't think that I don't think it's helpful
to kind of hold that up as a you know,
as being okay, you shouldn't normalize that.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
That's interesting. I would mind as well just exploring that
a little bit. You said ethics, and you purposely didn't
say morals because morals seems to be associated with standards
sort of that type of stuff. Am I correct? I mean,
in just assessing what you just said, is are you
(13:08):
sort of parking morals over there? That's not really were
to raise. You're talking about ethics.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Look, I think it's starting to get into semantics when
we when we do that, because again it's like which
you know, which morals, which ethics are we talking about?
But I think we all understand what we mean by
being ethical. I think that's fairly clear. And I don't need, say,
a religion to tell me what's right or wrong, because
I can feel and know that the ethics tell me
(13:36):
that actually hurting someone's not not great and it's also
not great for me, and it's not great for you know,
my human spirit. And I do believe we have a spirit, right,
I don't need to say what that I don't know
what that is. I'm not the person who can tell
you what that is. But there's something, and it matters
that we honor that, that we live with dignity and
(13:58):
with ethics. So yeah, I'm not sure about morals and religion.
I mean, that's a huge conversation. I'm not a theologian,
but I will say that you don't need to come
from a particular religious background to know that there is
there's a way to be that's kinder. There's a way
to be that's more ethical, and you can just in
(14:19):
your imperfect way try.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
When you say kinder, kinder as in kindness, it seems
to me to invoke things like that are basic virtues,
you know. And you know, when I was growing up
as a kid, virtues were discussed at lunchtime on Sundays
because there was nothing else for us to do watch.
I did have television, we didn't have intimated to have anything.
(14:46):
So family would older people talk to us younger people
about virtues They say, you know, but they're usually put
in a sentence. You know, he or she's toughest tea
you know, like good resilience, things about resilience, as you say, kindness, gratitude,
those sorts of things. Where in your books do you
try to take us down a journey from ethics and
(15:09):
into virtue. In other words, that person is quite virtuous
without saying those words, but you know, you're trying to
tell us that this person is quite virtuous, and are
you signaling what where you think society should be or
where it would be a nice place for society to be.
Is that the whole purpose of your books or is
it more just entertainment.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Look, it's entertainment, and it's a deep dive into the
human experience. You know. I've written now fifteen books, and
all of them are storytelling. They're all about people's lives.
They're all about regular people. I tend not to write
about generals and world leaders. I tend to write about
people who are impacted by the decisions of those those people,
(15:48):
or people who are impacted by you know, the long
shadow of war, by crime on the streets. I'm writing
about those types of people. Are they virtual? I don't know.
I don't think I've ever written that word in my books,
because again, when you get into virtue and morals, you know,
there's connotations there depending on you know, where you come
(16:10):
from as to what that means. I think ethics is
a is still not a It's not a word that
triggers people. I think virtue does a virtue signaling ideas,
the virtues and the sins and all this sort of thing.
Let's just like pull all that out of it. It's
actually really good to be a good person and just
be a decent person and try and you're not always
(16:33):
going to get it right, but there are, you know,
lines you can draw. I think being a bully is
not okay. Obviously hurting people is not okay. So using
violence to get what you want is not okay. But
there are other ways to negotiate, There other ways to
be and to contribute, and those are the things that
(16:53):
I think it's worthwhile showing. But resilience that you mentioned before,
and know that the key to so much of my work.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
It's about resilience, About your resilience or that's the or
is that the message to come from your work?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
That is a common thread of the central characters in
all of my books, And it is also something that
I think it's fair for me to say that I
share as well as a quality.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
So your books are fiction, how do you decide who
your fictional characters are going to be? I mean? Do
you you base it on a model of a person
that you've met or someone or a model of a
number of people you met? I mean, and do you
actually sit there and sort of straw man the individual
that this is your heroin and of the story, and
(17:41):
you also depict in the story. Do you build a
villain and a heroin? I mean, is that the game.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
To me storytelling is about It's not quite as black
and white, so there's always going to be grays for
the characters. Otherwise it's boring. I'm not doing cartoons. I mean,
there's some amazing cartoons and comics and graphic No they're
I'm looking for more nuanced. That's the substance of novel writing.
It gives you the opportunity to really get in there.
(18:08):
So it's never going to be black and white, and
they have to have a lot more substance than a
straw man, right or a straw woman. But what I
do is often start with the characters and I think,
what if this sort of person and this sort of
person clashed, what if they met, and what if they
met in a very dynamic time. So The Italian Secret,
(18:29):
which is my latest book, it's not out here for
a few months. It's said in nineteen forty eight, you have,
you know, the hangover around the world of a World war.
You have the political, economic, cultural.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Fallout of all of that, particular in Italy at the time.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Particularly in Italy at the time, and we have not
had books, I think, particularly in this genre, that have
focused on the fallout for people who are part of
access countries and didn't ask to be balmbed by literally everyone.
Right in Naples were bombed by both sides and living
in the underground. So it's that looking at real people,
(19:07):
how these events affect real people, and then imagining one
type of person another coming together for better or worse,
and setting off a chain of events. That's for me
where it begins and as I.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Write it changes.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
So for me, writing is a bit like I imagine
archaeology to be so, rather than a paint by numbers
or a kind of a way of like coding. I
work very much on feel. I've got a lump of clay,
there's some ideas, and I shape it, and I shape
it for like a year and a half until it
(19:43):
feels real to me that the characters speak to me,
the characters are alive, and I really feel something when
I'm rereading the story, and it can impact my readers
in a similar way. That's how I create. It's less methodical.
Is very disciplined, but less methodical, less plot driven than
(20:05):
some other writers. But I think that it works out
pretty well, and after twenty five years, it's still the
way that I work in books.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Do you is the subplotting of characteristics of your characters,
in other words, in nuancing them. Is that to keep
me off the trial? Like in other words, you know,
I don't want Mark as a reader to I think
he's really got this person down patterns exactly what the
(20:35):
deal is, because I want my Mark might stop the
book reading because he might get you word.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, mostly I think of you when I do write
the character. I'm very worried about Mark and what you're
going to do. No, for me, it's not so much
an intentional manipulation.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I don't like manipulating me.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, but you could be of you. But I mean
of readers, because there is a style of writing that's,
you know, a lot of plot twists, and we see
this in movies as well, where like there's like eight
plot twists at the end life. Nothing's really you know,
nothing's what you thought, and you know that can work.
But I'm not that kind of writer. It's not the
way my brain works. So what I want you to
(21:14):
do is to feel that the characters are real and
to empathize with them because I think compassionate empathy or
the natural result of learning about people.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
So what was.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
That person in Naples, you know, how did they survive
in the underground during the war while everything was bombarded
and their home was destroyed? And what about that private
investigator in Australia and Sydney post war, who you know
is very unpopular because she's a divorcee and she's a
woman in a man's field. And everybody wants the returned
(21:50):
soldiers to have jobs, but you know, women should get
back in the kitchen. What was it like for them?
And it doesn't kind of matter whether you're male or
female inside of politics. You are, how old you are,
whether you've got an Italian background and an Australian background,
you kind of go. I can walk a little bit
in their shoes just through this book. So there's plot,
and I think it mix for a better story when
(22:13):
you can do that.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Is the fiction reader the person of your book? Are they?
And I guess you understand these people better than anybody,
But they am entering in a form of voyeurism. In
other words, I'm never going to experience this in my life,
(22:37):
but I would really love to know what someone coming
out of World War two in forty eight in Naples,
how they actually survive their life? I mean, and how
much of you know? Is that a thing that people
do in the world, Like, it's not my go but
there must be people in the world who do this,
who live their life by reading books and maybe watching
(22:57):
movies and stuff like that or a series, but who
are actually really keen to know what it would be
like to be this person. Is that who you're writing
to or are you writing that to yourself? Oh?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
I'm exploring characters and bringing them to life. It's a
creative pursuit. I don't think we can pigeonhole readers, just
like I don't think people who watch reality TV are mindless,
you know, drones watching something and voyeuristically living through others.
I think that people are a bit more complicated and
(23:33):
a bit more interesting than that.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Actually.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
But books have a special ability to be time machines.
Books have a special ability to be you know, compassion
machines to be used for learning, but most of all
for entertainment. And that's what I'm writing. I'm writing to
engage a reader, and when I'm diving into dark territory,
(24:00):
when I'm touching on things like the Holocaust or destruction
of culture in Naples or whatever it is that I'm
bringing into a book fighting Nazis. I mean, that's what
my character does through a lot of her books. When
I'm when I'm looking into that, it's got to grip
the reader. You got to want to read it, and yeah,
you're gonna be touching on part of the stuff because
(24:22):
it's actually part of our.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Life and our world.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
All of us have grandparents who were impacted in some way,
our families were impacted in some way, and so I
don't want to write about the small I actually want
to be able to look at the big picture but
personalize it with characters that I've frankly made up but
from an amalgam of real life people and characteristics. Billy
(24:46):
Walker my main character, for example, she's a private investigator
in Sydney, and she's kind of like if Philip Marlow
was ava Gardener, but she's a she's got touch of
you know, Virginia Hall, she's got a touch of Martha
Girl Horne, all these really interesting real life women of
the time, which is not any of them, but there's
a sense of a sense of the film noir women
(25:08):
we see in black and white, you know, the Laura
and Bacoles with their shoulder pads and their toughness, and
that's fun, but also it's touching on something real and
I think you always have to, you know, have your
finger on that is.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
And we'll move on in my move. But I'm actually
intree boilists. But is writing fiction and you've done a
number of books, and you've really done one every two
years probably since your twenties, yea, on average? Is fiction
writing for you apart from being what you do in
terms of your business career, et cetera. Is it to
(25:50):
tease us to see what what excites human humans? I mean,
and obviously it is. But are you trying to find
out what excites us like especially when you talk about
the dark territory, you know, like dark characters. Or is
(26:11):
it just a business for you?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Oh God, if it was just a business for me,
I probably wouldn't be writing.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Novels because we know that much money it is not.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It is a very time intensive and it's you know,
last ask any artists of any sort, they're just not
going to it would not be smart to get into
it for the money. It's got to be where your
passion lie. Otherwise, honestly, you won't get through the writing
of a book, and you certainly won't be able to
sell it because it's hollow. You know, you can't do
(26:43):
it as a formula. There are times I wish that
I could, because I could be more prolific, you know,
but that's not what I'm about, not as an advocate,
which you know that work is free, and not as
a novelist, and that work is modestly paid, even with
some success. I'm very grateful for I'm grateful that I
(27:04):
can continue to write because I continue to have readers
who want to buy my books, and without them, I
wouldn't be able to carve out the time to continue
to do what I love. I started writing when I
was ten from my classmates at elementary school, at Torque
Elementary and there's like loose leaf binders that were in
my dad's attic of you know, Stephen Kings style novelettes
(27:25):
and little stories that I wrote with cartoons in the
corner and little doodles and stuff. And I've just always
loved storytelling and to me as a documentary maker, as
a podcast maker, as an investigative journalist, as an author,
and as a speaker. It's really all about the best
(27:46):
medium for bringing that story to life. I actually don't
care if it's spoken word. If it's written word, I
can't act, so someone else have to do that for me.
But if it's me on the screen explaining something in
documentary like Tough Nuts Australia's Hardest Criminals, if it's a
podcast like The Men in the Balaklava, it's a criminal investigation,
(28:09):
or if it's a historical fiction book. There's different ways
to touch on what matters in the world. And sometimes
it's through art and sometimes it's plain documentary telling, and
I think they're all valid, and so that is my passion,
I think, is to continue to tell people's stories, especially
(28:30):
I'm going to say the undertold stories.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
What does that mean? Undertold is the people that Are
they stories that people avoid or are they stories that
just haven't really surfaced? We just haven't told them enough.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I don't think we can say that women have avoided
having their stories told, but I think that women, particularly
when we're looking at the nineteen forties, it took a
long time to recognize women's contributions in world War two,
and we can extrapolate that out to all kinds of
situations for women generally. But isn't it kind of more
(29:02):
interesting as a reader too. We've seen a lot of
that period written about, we haven't seen it written about
in Australia. So international readers are very interested in my
books because they're set in Sydney, right, They're very interested
in my books because hey, it's Naples. There were supposed
to be the bad guys, but now we've actually got
some understanding of what real people went through. Here's a
(29:24):
female private investigator. Did they exist?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Is there a bunch of film noir about them or
a bunch of Golden age thriller novels about them?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
No?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Their stories are undertold, but they still existed. And I
think that makes for frankly more interesting writing for me
as a person has to live with it for a
couple of years while I write it. But it makes
for more interesting reading as well. We're not just hearing
the same story.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
You mentioned that, you mentioned what efficacy and you know,
when I was doing some reviews on you, human rights
is a big issue for you. Women's rights are big
issue for you. Probably maybe not so much women's rights.
But abuse of women's rights is probably a bigger, bigger
issue for you outside of your fiction writing. Where do
(30:12):
you sit on that now? What are you doing now
in relationion to your advocacy? What's advocacy work are you doing? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Well, all types. So I've just recovered from complex regional
pain syndrome, which I'm in remission for.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
But I can't ask you what is that? So?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Complex regional pain syndrome is a little understood severe pain condition.
It's believed to have neurological components, immune components, inflammatory components,
and it can result in amputation necessary amputation. It results
usually it's usually in a limb, and it can result
(30:47):
in the loss of that limb with a loss of.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Use of that limb as a result of the pain.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
It's more complex than the pain, but the brain essentially,
I'm going to oversimplify it, but if you were to
imagine that the brain is cutting itself off from the
painful limb, that would get you some way to understanding
how it works. You have reduced circulation, or you have
a edma in huge amounts of circulation. It's very painful
(31:13):
for people and generally it's very difficult for them to
use the affected limb.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
It is a recognized disease. Yes, it is. It's not
something that's contentious. It's not.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
No, it's not. Well, it's contentious in that people don't
know what causes it, so there's debate about the cause,
but there's no debate about the existence of it. And
it was first written about during the Civil War in fact,
so people who were you know, survived the trauma of
war would sometimes end up with these injuries, and that
had various names over the years.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
So you had this. I still have it.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
It's not curable, but I'm in remission so now I
can walk. Still working on getting my fitness back after
many years in a wheelchair. In fact, I had ripped
arms because I had a manual chair, so I was
like very limb to Hamilton, it was you know, I
kind of missed.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
My ripped biceps.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
But it's really nice to be able to be upright
and to use my legs again and to be mobile.
So during that period I did a lot of disability
advocacy and a lot of pain advocacy, including here in
Australia and with Parliament, particularly on things like legalizing medical marijuana,
getting more people access to different, different options to handle
(32:23):
their pain, because pain management is a human right. Okay,
So now that I've recovered and I'm in remission, it's
not that disability issues don't matter to me.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
They do.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
It's just that people who are disabled right now are
better placed to have the spotlight on them to talk
about those issues. So what I am doing is continuing
my twenty some year advocacy on human rights and on
women's and girls' rights. And I have a podcast that
dropped just this week around the time of International Women's
(32:56):
Day called There's No Place Like Home After She Leaves.
It's season three of an award winning podcast, and it's
focusing on domestic and family violence, which can happen to
everyone and and does happen to all kinds of people
in Australia, but it's very often, you know, disproportionately affecting
(33:16):
women and kids, and telling those stories is very harrowing
but important. So a woman is still killed in Australia
every nine days by a partner or former partner every
nine days, every nine days, and in fact last year
it was every four days for a period.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Is that every get reported?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Oh yeah, that's under that's that's reported, but it's I mean,
the newspapers are on occasionally, but only really on International
Women's Day. It seems to me that that's like the
one day we all kind of look at this tragic
fact and kids also, you know, kids are very heavily
affected by this. So in the first episode, for example,
(33:54):
we're talking to doctor Anne O'Neill and she was shot
by her her husban and who she'd separated from, shot shot,
and he murdered their two children in bed at the
same time, shot her and then himself, And it's this
sort of it's this sort of situation which we can
do more to reduce the risk of by allowing avenues
(34:18):
for women to get out of get safely out of
dangerous situations. And in this case, she had separated, she
had you know, they're always asked like, why didn't you leave?
She did leave, but that's often the most dangerous time.
And that's the focus of this podcast is kind of
debunking that myth that will women just stick around and
(34:38):
actually recognizing the dangers and what we can do to
help them. And some of that is financial, some of
that is social, and just I guess recognizing the cues
and doing more for those around us who are in
a vulnerable situation.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
It's interesting you you should mention that to me because
some just brought to you of I did not podcast
with somebody and Julia Morris, and Julie was telling me
that when she got divorced from her husband, she discovered
that nothing was in her name. Everything was in his name.
And I just want to ask you what you think
about this, because one of the banks came in which
(35:17):
I thought was fantastic and actually sat down with her,
So a bank other than the one that her and
husband were banking with. I won't say the name of
the bank, but they actually offered to through her lawyer,
to come and sit with her and show her how
to download of the apps set up the account. You know,
she'd been in the income owner, in the business all
(35:38):
their married lives. He was a stay at home dad,
but he managed everything, if you know what I mean,
behind the scenes in terms of money's coming in, money's
going out. And she had no idea how this was
going to work. And do you think it's important in
this environment, just in terms of women becoming on their
own and women having the ability to go out, go
(36:00):
away from the domestic environment, whether it's violent or whether
it's just not working, and perhaps take the kids with them.
How important is it for corporations, banks and all those
people we interact with to actually to be preemptive and
go and say, hey, why don't I come and see
you and I'll show you how to fix this up
(36:21):
as soon as leaving them to do the best.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I think it's extremely important and I'm glad you raised it.
Financial abuse as it's called a big factor in a
lot of abusive relationships. So it may well be this
controlling aspect, and often it's not even so much that
the woman does. Sometimes she will know, sometimes she doesn't know.
But even if she knows they're controlling it, there's punishment
(36:46):
or more abuse if they try to intervene in that
or if they question it. So you've got a very
dangerous situation, and it's going to be something that prevents
a woman from taking herself or herself and the kids
out of a dangerous situation because they literally they don't
have somewhere to go, they don't have money to access,
and it's just another form of control. So some banks
(37:09):
are onto this and they have programs in Canada as well.
And as we said, I'm a Canadian Australian dual citizen.
There are some programs where there's money that can be
accessed with certain parameters, obviously within twenty four hours. So
when the request is made, it's like, this is an emergency.
I need to get to a safe place, usually a
(37:31):
safe place that the perpetrator or abuser or a partner
does not know about, right and it needs to happen
now because we know that the majority of those women
who are murdered by a current or former partner have
either separated or they have started making plans to or
announced such. That's actually the majority. So this is something
(37:52):
the podcast focuses on in the financial aspect of that
is actually something we shouldn't underestimate.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Should governments get involved in, because I think if we
just leave it, advocacy is really important at starting point,
someone has to talk about it, and a podcast like this,
we need policies. Well that's what it's going to say.
But you're doing. What you're doing is not going to
change anythink it might prompt something we need ask you do.
(38:20):
We need governments to say, well, here's our policy in
relation to this. And by the way, we're going to
make it okay for the bank to breach confidentiality because
banks will say, well, hang on a minute, you know
the accounts in the name of the husband. We're worried
that if we give you some information or we let
you access that money, we're going to get sued by
that individual or his lawyer.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
But what about a fund that's put aside for emergencies
like this, that isn't actually from that pool of funds,
but recognizes that whatever pool of funds, there is something
that both partners have a rate to. So if she
can't get to it, it doesn't matter right now. What
matters if she stays alive and stay alive and we
can get that money back later. As opposed to going like,
(39:05):
oh we need to you know, give access and go
through all these different there's a way to simplify it.
Get them out now, get them safe now, and that
needs to be prioritized. There's a there's a leaving home
program in Canada, for example, that does that within a
twenty four hour period. There are some banks here in
Australia who are really actively looking at this and have
(39:27):
opened up the possibility to just come and get you
some help some assessment, as you mentioned, and this is
really important, but we need government policies and we know
we've really let women down as well in terms of
you know, safe houses, places to go. They don't, you know,
most of the positions are already taken. For the most part.
(39:50):
There's wait lists for people to actually get out of
the house and have somewhere to stay. So on the
one hand, we want to say it's wonderful to be
a mom. We love kids, so we want great families
to stick together. But on the other hand, when things
get tough, there's nowhere for them to go, and we
need to provide that support because they haven't been, you know,
having nine to five jobs.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
They've been caring for others. You just reminded me of something.
But in the nineties, the only reason I know because
I was helping them out a bit. But there was
a village, it's called the Vincentin Village running but the
Vincente Village is down not far from where we are here.
Were in dulling Us. It was down at eas Sydney
(40:32):
and it was an old building. But they the ladies
who worked there told me that their busiest time for
single mums who were escaping an abusive relationship, whatever it
may have been, who came with their kids, and usually
they came with the kids of just that nothing, just whatever,
the clothes they had on and the shoes they had on,
and was the busiest time was Christmas time, around the
(40:55):
christ period, And of course you know that they had
no money. I mean looking for help to help these
families out.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
And if you don't have a refuge for them to go.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
To, it's a refuge.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
If you don't have a refuge, or you don't have
a program that allows them to get into a motel
quickly or some other way, because a lot of them
have been isolated as well, so that financial abuse is
one form of very important control right, but also separation
from family, friends and isolation is often a tactic used
by abusers as well. So they really don't have somewhere
(41:30):
to go. We need to make sure that they do,
otherwise we end up seeing them on the front page
of the paper with another tragedy. And we've all seen
far too many of those, so it is avoidable. Maybe
not in every circumstance, but those numbers are far too
much in every single one of these lives matters, And
I think that we can do it, just do a lot.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
More, you know, one of these And one of the
things I've noticed because I've been doing it, look at
helping him out, Chris. A lot of times there's kids
who don't even be a runners or you know ic
go and my sons and I we used to trying
and help them out and give them some money by
shoes or stuff. But one of the changes I've noticed from
nineteen ninety six when I first started to twenty twenty
(42:11):
four last year is that I now see less Australians,
like what would be considered a normal Australian, you know,
like you know, some of an English background, English don't
smear or whatever it is. I'm now noticing that a
lot of these individuals who are going to this particular refuge,
refuge the refuge now moved, it's in Crown Street. But
(42:32):
foreign people, people come in from another country.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
If you've got a multicultural city. We do know that
immigrant women or immigrant families experience more abuse.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah totally, you know that.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yeah, Indigenous women experience more abuse. So I think it
just depends on who's in that local community, and we
know that they're going to be more vulnerable if they've
come from overseas, they don't know people, they may have
less at their disposal, less less support, less financial.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Support, they don't know the bank, they probably don't Misspeak
English very well. And it seems to me that there's
a lot more of that going on now. And I
actually went through and you can nearly look at the
immigration policy of Australia relative to who I was seeing.
And I think back at now over a thirty year period,
(43:20):
the types of people who were seeking refuge at around
this period that I never got involved with the Chris's period.
They would give me a call, but I'm sure it
happens all year round. But I've actually I can actually
see the different types of nationalities coming through the place.
And isolation. Used to use the word isolation. If you're
a refugee from another country and you come here and
you're in a bad relationship and you've got to leave,
(43:42):
you're actually more isolated than anybody else. You don't know anybody, that's.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Right, And the risk of fatalities is even higher for
any group where they are more isolated. And so that
is often women who are from an immigrant background, women
who are indigenous, women who come from a lower socioeconomic group.
It can impact anyone but those particular groups. The stats
are staggering and tragic, and you know it's it's the women,
(44:08):
but also and sometimes men. But it's the women for
the most part who bear the brunt of this and
their kids.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Why is Tara Rey so interested in this? What is
it that makes you choose this mission because it matters?
Is it because you can make a difference perhaps, or
you want to make it? Think it matters? I think
(44:35):
telling them and I support one with one such refuge,
and I have done for thirty years. But I think
I think that it matters. I don't advocate for it,
and I just well, I'm.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Glad you are right now because you're shining a light
and allowing space on your program to talk about it.
So you are talking about it right now, and that
makes a difference. You might not be well placed to
speak to the experiences of women who have, you know,
had an abusive relationship. But I think that if I'm
given a spotlight, I can use the profile I have
(45:09):
in ways that are useful.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
That's good. What else is the use of it.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
I've always felt that it was a Dalai lama who said,
I live. I'm quoting the Dalai Lama, but he said
that the purpose of life is to be happy and useful, right,
and I think, you know, I think that's going to
be sometimes. It's going to be a one on one
with someone. Sometimes, if you're lucky enough and privileged enough
(45:36):
to have a microphone, you might be doing something like this.
But I'm just talking about stuff that's real. It's not
you know, this is the real stuff. My fiction is
informed by it. My fiction is my work. This is
just talking about real stuff. And if it makes some difference,
it helps to turn the spotlight a little bit towards
(45:58):
something that's been in the shadow that maybe needs illuminating,
then then great. And when people are no longer interested
in talking to me, I hope someone else is doing
it too. And there's already lots of people doing it.
But I mean, we need a lot of people to
talk about these things because they're not fun subjects, they're
not entertaining, and it's hard to accept that this is
(46:21):
happening in our communities. But yeah, we've got to talk
about it.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
The podcast that you're doing now, said the new podcast. Yes,
there's no place like home, there's more to it no place.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
There's no place like home after she leaves Season three,
and what we're focusing on in this season is specifically
what happens after separation because there is this confused idea.
I mean, the women are often asked and why don't
you just leave? You know, or we'll see some tragedy
(46:51):
that's taken place. I won't even mention the horrific things
we've seen on the front page, and they'll just say,
why didn't she just leave? Well, I'll tell you why.
It's in the podcast. We've got the survivors of these
incidents talking about it. We know the stories of those
who didn't survive that. We're talking to police, we're talking
to experts, and they'll explain that this is the most
(47:14):
dangerous time is actually when you leave, they double down
on the control if they're an abuser, and that will
often be using violence. So we need to stop the
victim blaming there and kind of the question of like, oh,
why didn't you just leave? Like it's so easy when
we know the stats don't support that attitude, and we
should we should do more to support people who are
(47:37):
in those vulnerable situations rather than questioning like, oh, why
didn't you leave last week before you know this tragedy
occurred with your kids.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
We're an election circle right now and in Canada too,
and you guys, of course, are battling your fiftieth state
just below us, take control of you.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Thank you for Yeah, it's our for teenth Province are overblown.
Fourteenth Province just south of where I live, like I
mean literally by a few miles, so I'm very close
to the border there, and things are tense, things are
really tense. So yeah, there's like open discussions of invading Canada,
like we're you know, the current administration in America has
(48:22):
taken their closest ally, their closest trade partner, and said
I'm going to cripple you economically unless you let me
take over your sovereignty, become a non country and become
part of the US. So that is galvanized Canadians across
the political spectrum. If you're a conservative, you don't mess
(48:42):
with sovereignty, you don't mess with the national character and say, okay,
now we suddenly don't exist as a country that's been
around for so long, and as a progressive. It's also
appalling on a variety of levels as well, So literally
the whole country is united. Well it is, especially in
these divisive political times. It's certainly brought us all together
(49:05):
and it's it's scary.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Times given our political landscape. Or the election has not
been announced, but clearly with their own election mode. Do
you think this your show, your podcast which both has
been dropped as released it just was released, yes, which
like the first apps, Lady been out there we find
on Spotify and all the usual places, all the good places,
(49:29):
I guess. So given that, do you think that it's
something that the two contenders should be considering.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
They should be paying attention to it? Absolutely? I think
the stats here in Australia are appalling and we need
to do better. And a safer community is a more
productive community. A safer community is just a better place
to be. And no one would want these situations for
their family members, right for their daughter, for their for
their grandkids. So it doesn't matter your political persuasion. I
(50:01):
think you should care about this.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
As Sue, So no brain. It's funny, you know, we
keep talking about the standard living, you know, and when
we assess the standard living in Australia generally speaking, take
you know, gross domestic product divided by the population numbers,
and we just look at it like a really high
level economic number, when in fact, if another thing that
we maybe should be looking at and putting a value
(50:23):
on is the unhappiness of people who live in these
sorts of relationships as relative to our standard living. In
other words, if we got the highest domestic abuse per
capital in the world and just making this number up,
if we had, therefore our stand of living is not
very good.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
No, it's not. Well, we're we're letting things down at
a pretty fundamental level. Yeah, right, if we don't look
after the most vulnerable. I'm not saying do everything for them, like, oh,
you know, but we need to have a safety net
when things go wrong, because guess what, wealth, health and
safety is not an eternal fact that you can count
(51:01):
on and every moment of your life, things happen, and
that's when we need community, and that's when we need
policies so that we can survive it, come out the
other side and actually have rallied together and support one another.
And that's what I think is really important is to
remember that in today's individualistic society, you know, remember that
(51:21):
sometimes we need community actually to survive.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
What would you say to either Peter Dutton who's the
opposition leader, and or anything alban Is used the current
prime minister, both of whom want to become the next
prime minister of the country, who are currently both running
a narrative around the cyclone is about to hit northern
New South Wales and southeast Queensland and they're a lockstep
(51:48):
about how important is for the country to look after
all these people, which is great, but very rarely ever
talk about this topic, which is an ongoing thing. Cyclones
happen once every thirty forty years, and I get it's
important a Nichue. We don't want people to get hurt
or anyone want people to stay safe, Yeah, we totally,
but we also want individuals to stay safe and the
(52:09):
kids stay stay safe on a daily basis forever. Yeah,
not on every thirty year cycle. What would you say
to those two now who are on an election cycle,
what would you want them to pay attention and what
would you perhaps want them to start to the narrative
that they might be able to start to talk about,
because but it will be sitting right there again in
(52:30):
a few weeks. I'm so earth in the Albanize you
know I actually tell them about it, or what would
you like to say to them.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
I would like to say, listen to survivors, listen to
advocates in the space, because they have knowledge, they have expertise,
and this matters even if they're not personally affected by
it right now. It matters for Australia. It matters for Australians.
What happens behind closed doors might be invisible to them,
(52:56):
but it has a profound impact on Australian families, on
the future of this country and on what's happening on
the ground right now. And that's why something like the
cyclone again, you need community support. Right people are going
to be in distress and crisis. They're going to need
somewhere to stay. The case, that's also the case for
(53:16):
those who are experiencing danger, crisis and violence behind closed doors, right,
So don't forget them just because they're invisible to you
right now. And policies that support the community in that way,
that support women and girls and kids are policies that
make a stronger country. And we know that down the line.
(53:37):
You know, you can look at any example and we
know that to be the case. So don't forget them.
Just because they're not sitting next to you right now,
just because they might be experiencing this in a place
you don't see, they're still there and they still need
our help.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Is that part of the when you say you are
interested in and you write about it and you advocate
for when you say the darker things are happening, not
so much the light, but the things that are happening in
the darkness, is it as much about darkness as it
is about it is invisible? In other words, it's not
in our face day to day, correct, and it's not
(54:13):
talked about. The cyclone's there. You know, all the news
formats are all going to talk about it because it's
newsworthy and it makes a good story. But this stuff
doesn't really make a good story and it's hard to hear.
So you're bringing out the invisible.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
That's what I think is important. That's something that I'm
able to do right now. People won't give it, damn
what I say later. When I have a microphone now,
I do want to have it to use my voice
in a way that might be useful maybe right And
one of the ways we can do that is to
illuminate the things that are in the shadows or to
make visible the things that are less visible, and I
(54:49):
do try to do that, have a track record of
doing that on various issues over the last couple of decades,
and I'll continue to do so as long as I'm useful.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Well, it's actually very interesting. Appreciate you coming in entire ray.
But I think the definition or the description of abuse
in families, particularly women and usually their kids as well.
And whatever the abuse is, whether it's financial, physical, whatever
it is, is invisible, and sometimes we tend to not
(55:21):
want to look at it. We sort of it's very difficult,
it's quite confronting. I prefer you prefer not to think
about it too often. And maybe I'm even someone like
that because I think about it Christmas time. Only Bay
contacts me. But it's not something I think about day
to day. And therefore, you know, none of us are
because we've got to write all the other stuff we've
got to do it get through. But governments should have
(55:45):
a constant monitor in this stuff.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
They should have budget, they should have policies, they should
have refuges because it saves lives and like you said,
standard of living, How can we really calculate that when
so many people fall through the cracks. Because they're invisible
doesn't mean they aren't Australians and they need our help.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
Are No.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
The governments should actually be on top of this, and
we know that that's good government policy. It just often
gets shifted by other issues, right, other priorities. And I
do think we need more women in politics in part
for this very reason. Their perspectives, their knowledge, their expertise
is going to be a little bit different, their life
experience is different, and they're may be more well placed
(56:30):
to look at the issues that haven't been prioritized quite
as much. Right, it's not a strictly gendered issue, but
it is largely gendered as well, So looking at that
it just brings in a better pool of thinkers around
issues that maybe haven't been looked at as much. And
if I look back to my books in this period
of the nineteen forties, you know, no crime was committed
(56:51):
unless the woman was murdered. She couldn't leave a relationship
because she was being abused. It had to be adultery
or she's dead, right, I mean that's where we've come from.
It's not so long ago, so there's still a taboo
around this there's still an idea that you know, domestic violence.
It's not the same as a king hit and king's cross.
(57:12):
It's not the same as the you know, the violence
that we see on the streets around the battlefield or
indeed in a in a cyclone. It's just kind of
between two people that are just going to have to
deal with it in private. And we know that that
is that devastating kind of history is something we're still
picking apart and trying to get away from. The taboos
(57:36):
around that, the assumptions around that, and the invisibility of
it are all obstacles to what I would call justice, fairness,
and greater safety. And I want that greater safety from
my daughter. You know, we all want that for our
families and for the future.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
I think I think we were one of that I
want for the nation. So Tyree, thanks for very much
for shining the light on what is invisible. It is invisible,
but it shouldn't be invisible. And I just wonder where
the word domestic violence is not a very good adjective
to use a relation of violence because the domestic softens it.
(58:12):
I agree, domestic is probably is a dumb word. Yes,
I mean, it's violence at home.
Speaker 2 (58:18):
But family violent. Family violence is maybe a little bit better.
But not all people experiencing violence at home or a family,
so they're not always with kids. But I agree, it's
you know, it has been spoken of as being maybe problematic,
perhaps dismissive, again because of that history. It's a domestic matter.
It's a domestic matter, and it was really used in
(58:40):
a way that was quite dismissive. So yeah, give me
a better word for it. Mark, let's see.
Speaker 1 (58:45):
I can't think, but I'm now thinking. But no, thanks
from much for getting my attention on this, and I'm
not appreciate and our audience for that matter, from making
the time. You're most welcome in good Luck and podcast. Yeah,
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