#199: Michael Cheika on Coaching the Wallabies, Time in the Fashion World & Evolving as a Leader

In this episode, Michael Cheika opens up about the early years that shaped him — from his childhood and first taste of sport to the drive that led him into professional rugby. He reflects on his rise through the coaching ranks, the lessons learned from international roles, and the mindset needed to build world-class teams. He also dives into his time in the fashion world and shares stories from his wild travels around the globe.

We talk about cultural differences in sport, what separates good players from great ones, and why the mentality of champions like Lionel Messi resonates across all codes. Cheika also breaks down his philosophy on preparation, performance, and the future of rugby in Australia.

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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, my boris and this is straight Talk Michael Checker.
Welcome to straight Talk, mate, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Good to see it.

Speaker 3 (00:06):
Yeah, it's good to be.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
I think last week we saw each other.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
You, me and a couple of other blokes had a
lunch in some fancy joint which you paid for?

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Did you pay for it?

Speaker 3 (00:17):
And I think you did it?

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh well, there's got to be a square. But by
the way, is that the reason you leave in the country?

Speaker 3 (00:23):
What not to pay that have to pay for lunch? No? No, no, no, no, no,
I'd like to I'd like to hip back there at
some stage. It was a nice lunch.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
And so I mean, grace Greeks are milly mean? I'm
not sure? So what about the Lebanese like we're givers?

Speaker 3 (00:38):
Yeah, well, look from very young coming in luck my
family came that, my parents came to the country, and
then my place was always the drop in center, right,
so free food. I come home from school some days
and my mates would be there at the in the
kitchen before I was even home eating. So it was
always a giving place as food is concerned.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Where did you grow up as a kid?

Speaker 3 (01:00):
Yeah? Could she? Could you want a bread? Yeah? My
old man came to Australia probably nineteen fifty and my
mum came later. He met her here. So he started,
like I've told this story before, but you know, I
suppose it leads into a bit of how it got
involved in foot it really because when they turned up

(01:21):
they had nothing, you know, and so the running away
from wars and well, i'd say maybe civil like village
village politics, which could happen, you know, and I think
things probably got heated, so, you know, and it was
it was a lot rougher back then. You know, guns
were drawn back in the day.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
It's pretty rough now too. Right at the moment, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
A it's been run by different people, you know. I
think the villagers are more happy to to stay stay
cool and relaxed. But it's more of the bigger players
in the marketplace that are pushing that a conflict. But
that's another story. So when he came and he was
we had one mate with him and they said that
cab drive rather than where they're from, and they said, oh, well,

(02:03):
they couldn't speak much English, so Lebanon, so they didn't
have anywhere to go. He dropped them at Redford Park
because the church was there, right, and so from there
Redfern Oval was across the road and I think as
part of assimilating they go to the footy man.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yes, yeah, I know that. I think I know the one.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
It's just a little bit up the road from probably
the new one is, but just a sort of bit
up from red from where they play foot is where
the actual community park is.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
It's just a bit further up you go past the
community park and there's the one way it comes down Elizabeth.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
Strea towards the cities from Redford. Yes, exactly, Okay, I
know that one.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
It's just around the corner and I think they probably
checked up in a hostel there somewhere and that's where
they started getting involved in footy. And obviously the labs
back then would have gone west that was where the
community was, but my my father decided that east was
more of the go and he moved out there and
we stayed there ever since.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, so they had nowhere a taxi and they didn't
know they didn't.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Have a place to go to as such.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
That's what a lot of the immigrants would have had made.
I think there's stories even from them where some got
on boats thinking they'll go on to America, you know,
they end up in Australia. Well, how would you know.
You wouldn't know what you're getting off to. That's why
we're so blessed these days. We can see everything before
we go there, you know. But when they turned up,
I suppose it was and I think it leads into

(03:24):
a bit of even my own character around, you know,
not risk taking, but being prepared to take a chance
sometimes because they leave no certainty they're ever going to
go back and see their parents, which my father never did.
No certainty when they can get back there in the

(03:45):
pursuit of getting a better life, you know, which obviously
Australia offered back then. And yeah, I think he was
very happy with his decision, even though he missed a
lot of things from back in Lemon. I'm very happy
to be coming here and to live in Australia.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
And how many kids are then in the family, your family.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, I've got a brother and a sister, both older,
so as a ethnic kid, so I got the dream run.
You know, they did all the damage for me and
I just got the dream run after that. And then
I've in turn got four of my own.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Did you do you remember as a child when you
first like when you are young kid, do you remember
there being much of a Lebanese community because you ultimately
moved out of could you because you just got Marsling,
didn't it?

Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, so the cafe has got in Ramwick. Do you
remember whether or not your family, Maybe not you because
you're at school, but your family, whether or not you
had much of a Lebanese community that you blended into.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Definitely. You know my dad was, I think because he
was there early and he had he was interested in
the political side of things. He he got involved in
the community. He was he helped people when they arrived
into Australia, help them find their bearings, you know, help
them with jobs and stuff like that, because like they
would just do whatever they caught. I think my old

(05:01):
man he was Railways, then worked at the Singer selling
machine factory and the glass factory there they do a
bit of everything. So but he didn't go and live
in that part of the community, which is interesting. So
he came a bit of a I suppose a leader
in the community. In fact, he got an MBE for
services in the ethnic community for the Lebanese community in

(05:22):
Australia there he was given that award. He was and
he he he did a lot and then got involved
in the politics of it as well. And you know,
got to know a fair few of the Pollys here
in Australia as well when it came to how they
dealt with the ethnic communities and helping out with the
Ethnic Communities and Ethnic Affairs Commission. I think was because

(05:43):
a lot.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
Of Lebanese, particularly the Christian Lebanes, who are the only
ones I on knew growing up, moved out, lived out
where I lived in the West Suburbs. So like my school,
Catholic School was in Lakemba, was probably hard for the
kids with Lebanese and doing I'm talking now in the

(06:06):
mid sixties because there was the big war in Lebanon.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
As I record, everybody sort of left and.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
He's yeah, it started coming in sixty seventies. Yeah, that
started happening and a lot of Australia took refugees as
well at that time, I think, and the community grew
out there. You've only got to go to a Bulldogs
game at Belmore you'll see what it's all about. Or
you know, he saw the last World Cup of rugby
league that was here in Australia. I think the Lebs
had a few home games. You know, there's that many

(06:32):
people there, but there is a strong community that's all
through that West Southwest in Sydney. I'm talking about West
Southwest and also even into the northwest, a bit more
paramatti ish around there. So there's a very strong community.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Especially now they're speaking of the Lebanese community. I mean,
I have to ask the question because Jimmy Simon's James
Simon's of you know, Ossie Homeland's fame. Heard I told
him because I haven't coffee with him outside before you
got it that you were coming in and he said
to me, Ah, I asked, Check about my father or grandfather.

(07:08):
Somebody saved your father on a plane or something like that.
I'm going to tell everybody told me, right, Jimmy, this
is mate. It could be bullshit, but I'm going to
test it out on the on the real deal here, okay,
and you'll be listening to this. I know you told
me that Check's father carried your father, Michael on his

(07:32):
shoulder off a plane and.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Saved his life. Okay, Can I just get that.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Your dad carried his dad no, no, sorry, the other
way around, his father, I should say, his father, Michael
carried your father off a plane and saved his life.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
Well, the signs of that interesting hook up with us
since day one. So one of the only numbers that
all connections that my father would have had back when
he arrived was would have been James's grandfather, Michael's father. Yeah,
and there was a connection there between them early on

(08:08):
and that ran through so when things started to happen,
there was a connection. My dad had a business eventually
which he connected in with Michael around which is James's dad,
and they were on a trip I'm pretty sure over
to the Middle East or something like that. On they
were doing a pretty sure showcase like in the Middle East,
Australian products something like that was going on, and my

(08:31):
dad had heart issues, you know, always, it never really
stopped him, you know. Between I think he's the congeneral
heart issues. He was a good smoker. He didn't mind
a smoke as well, so he was starting to get
a bit sick, but he refused to stop doing any
of these things. I think on one of the trips
they went over, he struggled on the plane and there

(08:54):
was a bit of action on there. Michael was involved
that I think they you know, assignment that might be well,
of course, you know what I mean, the st the
waves are always bigger a few years later, but he did.
He helped Dad in a in a tricky situation on
the plane and then gave him the support he had
to go to hospital in the not sure where they landed,
he had to go to hospital at that time. So yeah,

(09:15):
there's always been a strong link there between them and
I remember when my father passed that grandfather Simon John
came and saw him, you know, and you know, one
of the last days. So there was all even though
we weren't close on a day to day basis, there
was always a very strong connection from the very first
part of his immigration to Australia.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
So we look at Michael check a kid at school
at Marcel and let's say you're fifteen, what game you play?

Speaker 2 (09:42):
What sport?

Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yeah? League?

Speaker 2 (09:43):
You're playing lee for Marslin. Yeah, you're playing rugby as well.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
We play on weekends sometimes, well there was marcelon had
it there was a club team around the local area.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Would have guess probably yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
That fed into Roundwick Rugby and we lived just up
the road from the rugby So it's funny how the
principal can decide a lot, right. So my brother went
to Marston as well, and they were playing rugby at school.
And then the principal changed when I came in there
and they focused much more on league. They played both,
so they just went for league and and I suppose
that that was our demographic, you know, growing up playing

(10:19):
league and we had a good we had a good
team and we were stay champions at the end of
our school Yeargan was in the side. Yeah, and I
didn't have a whole lot of guys that kicked on actually,
but we had a strong team and and it was Yeah,
it was all about rugby league growing up.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
So how did you get into rugby union? So what
was that?

Speaker 3 (10:40):
Well? All, like I said, we played a bit on
weekends and Ramwick was just down the road. My brother
was playing footay club. And this can sound bad, but
I genuinely thought we were pretty I wouldn't say we
were poor, but we weren't wealthy either, you know, We're
very working class. And I wanted to travel. I thought
maybe I'll get a free trip playing rugby, playing overseas

(11:01):
if I played rugby. That was generally my thought process,
and so I switched over played Colts at Ramwick and
I tried to double up for a while to see
because I played ball for Roosters as well. Well.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
I just stopped there for a second because Trent Robinson
told me this morning after I beat him up on
the jiu jitsumatis.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
That he said, asked check? He said check that.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
He said, I'm pretty sure we played history ball, which
in those he's probably under seventeen or something for the
Sydney the Mighty Sydney Roosters.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
That is correct, That is correct. Yeah, we all few
of us came into that crew there and that would
have been a goal then to go on and playing
in rugby league sort of after doing that, but I
was doing sort of both at the same time, trying
to hedge my bets. At that age it was just league.
Then afterwards I had decided to go play colts after
I finished school Rugby Colts, yeah, and have a goal

(11:55):
with that. So I played a year there and then
I literally played Australian twenties as what twenty ones maybe
as it was back there, and I literally got before
rugby went pro. I got connected into a guy from
France who took me over and I started playing in
eighty nine for a team Corkcast, which is in the

(12:17):
south of France. Need to lose and it was unreal,
like they it was a whole new experience. And back then,
you know, before the game was pro which happened to
sort of ninety six, so this was eighty nine. You
could play all year round, so you get paid under
the table there hopefully they won't come back and get
me now, and you know you got looked after let's

(12:40):
say back then, and you could play both seasons, so
I could play seven eight months there or seven months there,
missed the start of the season here and come back
and play for a round with like just my club team,
then in the end and play five months. Yeah, so
it was great.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
I'd be interested to know as someone who's a student
of both rugby league and ruby obviously in rugby union,
will talk about your coaching career in rugby union in
a moment, and you've also coached as an assistant coach
and coach leban of course, but assistant coach of the Roosters.
But if you reflect back on your days playing both
codes as a young man as a teenager.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
What is it that rugby league.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
In doctrinaire to revolve in a young man that is
beneficial for them when if they got to play rugby union.
Is there's something that league gives these individuals that you
would love to see in the rugby union boys.

Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah, I think like the the thing in rugby league.
By the nature of the game, there's a lot bigger contacts,
right because of the run that you get between the contacts.
So it's a little different too because there's in rugby
union every ball is contested, whereas in rugby league every
ball isn't contested. There's some some sceni that a contested.

(14:01):
So the way you can go to a collision to
a contact is totally different, you know what I mean,
Whether you're the ball carrier or whether you're the defender,
you can fully commit because there's no other things going on.
There's no lying in the ruck, there's no any of that, right,
so you can commit fully to the contact part of
the game. And I think the contact distance, the run

(14:21):
up you get in league to be able to come
to contact builds a certain edge about you. You know,
you've got to be read. I think there's a double
edge that makes you. You can talk about tough players,
but then there's also hard players, and there's two different things.
You know, A tough player can take a beating and
get up and keep going. A hard player can dish
one out and then be able to get on with

(14:42):
a game without getting too caught up. And I think
that helped me when I crossed over to Union because
I probably wasn't as talented as a lot of guys,
but I had that edge about me when I played.
I was able to bring a hybrid version of that
because rugby you don't get the run ups as much
because the defense is closer to the attack. It's a

(15:04):
different type of contact work. And it just gave me
a different type of edge, I think, and it gives
players a different type of edge around. Okay, I'm alone
in this collision. I've got to make it work because
when you're running and carrying the ball you've got you
haven't got anyone cleaning out behind you. You've got usually
two or three guys coming at you, and you know

(15:24):
what you know, you know what you've got to try
and do in that situation.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
So does that inform you as a I'm not talking
necessarily about your coaching at the level as you coach it.
But if you were, if you're looking at the rugby
union nursery, does that inform you as to some things
that you would actually if you were, like you know,
the head coach of all rugby union people in Australia,
like from adults right down to the little kids, does

(15:48):
that inform you those to what you might.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Train into the young people or does it matter?

Speaker 3 (15:56):
No, I think it's I think it suits some, doesn't
suit everyone, so I don't think you need to indoctrinate. Now,
there's different types of players. I was a forward, you know,
is that applicable to a halfback or to a five
eight or I think that that related Those issues related
to me because it was the style that I like

(16:17):
to play. Edge. That bit of edge helps all players obviously,
because it's probably mental as well as physical and learning
how to do that. I suppose being prepared to be
probably being a bit more mentally prepared for that, you know,
that type of I suppose scenario, that type of confrontation

(16:40):
is something that I think can be helpful for kids
as they start to get into the older ages, not
when they're too young when they start to get into
the older ages, because that can be the big difference.
And my own kids, I like them to play both
games because I like them to experience both forms of
that contact, the collision which is such a big part
of our game because of the contact games.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Because I mean, I look at the Joseph Soli, you know,
and he's obviously putting aside for the moment. He's big
contract and all that sort of not controversial that, you know,
that sort of Hollywood stuff that goes on around him.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
He's a great kid.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
But I wonder if one of the reasons why the
UNI went after him is because of his rugby league
background or or or what was it that makes him
so good.

Speaker 3 (17:27):
Well, he's obviously talented from its aphatically and as a
sportsman as well a sports person. I've been fortunate enough
to like see him coming through and then also coach
a guy like so Israel who would be compared to
very often. I think Joe's got a really good like
I see it from the outside, having a lot to

(17:47):
do with him hands on, He's got a great blend
of both. He's got the background of rugby, so he
understands the contest for the ball scenario. He understands the
movements off ball and he's definitely got the hard edge
from from league. I think he definitely would have learned
that by going and playing at Roosters and playing you know,

(18:10):
he grew up in the South Academy and then came
through with Roosters where he's got a tough and a
hard edge, Like he can take a hammering and he
can dish one out. Yeah, And I think that's you
could see what that can do is he can actually,
this is going to sound a bit odd, make other

(18:32):
players play better by that by having that involved in
his game like that, he can he can make other
players perform better because they feel that from him. That's
when other guys, you know, those types of players who
have got that edge, they can actually make other players
play better because they like to play.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
With them and because often wonder.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
I mean, I used to be a great fan of
rub Union, and I'm talking about the more the late
nineties early two thousand period, and there were certain players
I used to love what to watch, and I used
to the game used to me anyway, used to be
more free flowing and the ball would get out to

(19:12):
the wing or to a center. There wasn't it wasn't
as much kicking, and it just looked like to me
that the players were backing themselves a little bit, or
the coaches allowing them the players to back themselves. And
and I you know, I think rugby UNI has lost
some popularity, particularly.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Strain and rugby union.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
And I league's gone and leaps and bounds. And if
you listen, you know, if you believe what Peter of
Lander says, which I do in Peter, we believe that
rugby lee has actually increased its viewership. And that could
be a there could be a whole number reason that,
but is the reason why rugby union is not has
lost in popularity relative to rugby league.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Is the reason because of that? Is?

Speaker 1 (19:57):
For that is that rugby union needs more of those
type of players like Soli.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
I think there's a combination of things. I think there's
there is a requirement of more players coming into the
system that will give different have different skill sets, so
not just that hard edge or like Joe, but other
types of players. You look that one thing that you've
got to keep in context, Mark is that rugby in

(20:25):
Europe is not losing popularity whatsoever. It's it's firing, right,
So we have a different thing down here that we
want from our players.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
To me, I don't understand.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
Well, it's the culture of traditions, you know, the teams.
There's some teams in Europe that are very tight, forward
based games. They like the kick and chase and the
set pieces, et cetera. It's part of how they've been
brought up on their rugby. So if their team doesn't
perform like that, they actually don't like it.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Do you mean that you mean the members, Yeah, the fans.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, that's where the popularity of the game is. I'm
not talking about performance here, I'm talking about the popularity.
So they like that. You know. Now some will want
more and they'll always be you know, you can't always
keep everybody out here. But we had that era that
you were talking about there. We did have an advantage
over the Northern Hemisphere teams back then because we have

(21:22):
rugby league. We had AFL, so there was a real
athletic ball sports tradition here where we played and we
threw the ball around. It was different and the opposition
was different. Oppositions have changed as well. They've been able
to become more professional, more ready for what would come

(21:42):
from the Southern hemisphere as well across the board. And
I suppose if I look at say South Africa and
New Zealand, they've been able to They've got different positions
in the sporting world inside of their own countries. So
I think the popularity and one of the big things
there mark is that the rules. So you see how
leg just change the rules start of the season six again,

(22:04):
this one here, that one there, get the fatigue up. However,
whatever the rules are, make it faster. We can't do
that in rugby. We need World Rugby to change rules
across the board for everybody, right, and no one in
the Northern hemisphere is looking for those types of rule changes.
So realistically, so.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
Is the audience different in the Northern hemisphere, because I
mean you're right too, by the way, because Ireland is
like killing it, whereas they weren't twenty five years ago.
They wouldn't make anything. There was nothing going on. And
twenty five years ago it was Australia, New Zealand and
the spring Box like that was it.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
They were the three mobs you want to watch.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Sometimes you maybe Argentina era now and then and there
might be a Barbarian Barbarians game, which would be interesting
to watch against one of the other mobs. But that
was and that's what I watched, That's what I enjoyed watching.
I sort of dropped off over a period of time,
and Rugby Union two was also very wealthy. AIU was
like seemed to me anyway that they had a lot

(23:04):
of money, and then all of a sudden I just
sort of, you know, I had Oilsy on it. So
he has his view on these things. But you know
what happened, has that the fans in Europe love this
style of game in Europe?

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Have our fans? Why have our fans dropped off or
they stopped loving the style of game in Do we
have to change the style of game here to get
our fans back on board.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
I think that a lot of people may have lost
access to watch the game. You know, the terms of
broadcast lot the whole thing like venues because it's you
could go now because of Super Rugby, you could go
with without a game being played in Sydney for five weeks.
Because of the way the draw might work, you might
get serena row and then you might not get one

(23:46):
for so what are kids going to watch on a
day that Now, if you promote club rugby in a
different way and build it up, then they've got somewhere
that's it's a draw card for them to go to
and have the experience of the event, because that's what
people want when they gave They want to watch a game,
but they also want the event, you know, they want
to go and see the stars or the kid the

(24:07):
players they look up to, and if the kids are going,
the parents are going and so on and so forth.
You know. So I think that that we haven't given
I remember when Joe came in as a kid, Joe
so Wali, he came in there as a kid, maybe
fifteen or sixteen into the Wallabies when I was coaching there,
and he didn't know many of the players. He knew Israel,

(24:29):
he knew a couple of others who had played in NRL,
because maybe he hasn't had the access to be able
to go and see those guys turn up, all different
players turn up. And I think that's really important. We've
got to give people access to be able to see
the game, either either at the ground or on TV more,
you know, and whether it's the content, the amount of
content that's been viewed. I'm not even to be honest,

(24:53):
I'm not sure how the club Rugby is even but
if it's being shown on any free to wear channels,
thing like that. But kids need more of that access
and by nature they get more interested. I know when
my kids go to watch something, whether they go watch
the soccer. Okay, over in the UK, we went to
watch a game when they came over to visit. Then

(25:16):
they started getting interested in having a look what's on here?
How can I see more of this, etcetera. You know,
become members of the Liverpool or whatever like because they
get attached to the to the peace that comes around.
And that's why we all support teams because we identify
with something that's inside of that club. I like that
club for this reason. I like that team because I

(25:37):
want to be associated with what it stands for.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
It's very interesting that because that meant as you know,
a robot fan and your great mates of Trent Robinson
on lots of levels, Robbo is very much into promoting
what our club stands.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
For, the Roosters. We call it the Roosters Way, et cetera.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
What if in terms of Mike Checker and your coaching career.
And let's go back when you're coaching Australia beyond Astralia
beyond fifteen fifteen sixteen, wasn't it. Yeah, let's go beyond that, leak.
Let's go like twenty ten. Who are you coaching that period?

Speaker 3 (26:15):
Twenty ten? I just finished coaching Leinster five years?

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Ye, so you did a five year standard Leinster. What
sort of what are the sorts of things that you
get the clubs that you're responsible for, how do you
what do you sort of try and instill in them?
Is it Michael Checkers view or is it the community
view that you read the community? Or is it the
players give you some input as to how you guys

(26:40):
can let's call it promote yourselves as what you stand for.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
How do you do that?

Speaker 3 (26:44):
I think that it's with every team there will always
be a history. There will always be a culture and
identity that comes through from the past. And I feel
that as far as our connection with supporters, which is
the important one, how the people see us, both our
supporters to support us and the opposition's supporters so they

(27:06):
can be against us. As of you on you as
view on the team, Yeah, is that we want to
keep that historical element going and then improve that.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
How do you review that? I mean, how do you
get your hit around that part?

Speaker 3 (27:18):
What do you think it's about? Talking to people inside
of the club in proper induction, even before you go there.
I would any team I've been to, I always learn
about try to learn as much as I can about
the history of the club. Say at Leinster, for example,
they had a reputation of being the fancy city boys.
Never really got to the top. They were pitched again

(27:42):
and they played a bit of rugby, you know, they
they threw it around a bit. They were known more
for their backs than their forward say, whereas they would ruby.
Whereas they were pitted against Munster, who were at that
stage European champions or there or thereabouts, more not from
the city, more country folks, hard rugby, more forward orientated,

(28:02):
kick and chase. So there was a clear contrasting styles,
and I felt like, okay, well I need to continue
that feeling, polish it up so that it's slick, but
also underneath that have the hard edge that maybe not
talk about it too much because but you need it
to win. So keep your identity brutal a little bit brutal,

(28:26):
tough and hard. Cop it, but give it, train hard,
be ready as far as those things are considered, like
be prepared to play the game tough, because there's some
games you're going to have to play that aren't going
to be running rugby. I remember in the with that
team two thousand and nine we won European Championship on

(28:48):
the way that first two thousand and nine, No, that
was the third that we We played a game in
the quarter final against Harlequins away from home which we
won six'. Five well so two goals to two penalties
to which certainly wasn't. Us AND i remember the chairman

(29:09):
of A cloud coming to me in that. Day you,
Know i've been telling you we need to learn how to,
win you, know nine to six or because we could
win thirty to twenty or thirty to, thirty thirty one,
thirty but to win six' five it almost like galvanized
us in, a way and we. WENT on i won
the semi Final in dublin and then won the final

(29:29):
which was Up, in murrayfield and it gave us that
little bit of edge that we could win in that
tough more confidence we could win at the top level
against top teams in a tough battle where we weren't
just scrowing points because defense obviously is a huge and
the contacts huge part of.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
The game so how hard is it, to get especially in,
that example less when they weren't winning prior to you,
Coming along how hard is it to get that winning
mentality knowing how?

Speaker 2 (29:57):
To win maybe you could explain what.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
That means but because a lot, of clubs even in,
rugby league don't know how, to win a lot of
young players who are not used, to it they don't
know how.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
To win mark at the. Top LEVEL if i can't
see the, exact, stats right but if you think about in,
its reality it's got to be somewhere between only five
and eight or nine percent of people. Are winning because
you think in any one year a, team wins there's
in the rugby lea there's sixteen teams. That Lose In
super rugby there's nine other teams. That lose, You know

(30:26):
so winning mentality you have to learn it through the
way you you drive yourself, at training the way that
you don't want to settle for second best in our. Coach,
areas definitely by setting up the environment for people to
thrive in, that way and those that don't thrive you

(30:49):
have to change and those, needs yeah, well yeah that's
part of. The. Business yeah and those that, do thrive
they push on and they might drive others, with them.
You know and you'll never get everyone in, that line,
you know but you need a certain group of them
that will drive that that type of habit and that

(31:12):
will bring the others along.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
With them it's a it's an. Interesting mentality do you,
sit down but What Does? Michael checker do you appoint
a senior leadership team and you do you brief them
or do they? RUN that, i mean do you rely
on them to run?

Speaker 3 (31:27):
That program different teams require, different things and then you
require change and evolution as you. Move on SO what
i started Doing at leinster was probably a little Bit
more i'll drag you by the year and show YOU
like i was even young enough back then to jump
into training, with them. You know and what would you
do when you?

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Did that what would you slug.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
Them get in there and cause trouble AND if i
was looking at that point, in particular and wait for
them to come back, at me. You know and it took,
a while but it was younger guys who's to take that.
Bat lift but because the older guys that had different
habits and you if you want to, change habits you
can't get rid. Of it you've got to you've got
to actually. Change it you can't eliminate. A habit you've

(32:10):
got to replace it with. Something else otherwise, too hard it's.
Too hard you keep going back to. The habit but
if you've got another habit to, put there then it
can replace that habit and shift, it out and, you
know over a period. Of time and but you've got
to be quite relentless, in that which doesn't always make
you the most popular guy. In town that you can

(32:31):
you can build that one, gets it then another, gets
it and the domino starts. To fall and once there's
a critical mass or a critical few even they can
bring the others where you want them.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
To go So, after leinster that take us to you
coaching astraight inside?

Speaker 3 (32:48):
WHAT happened i started. OFF coaching i had a Year.
In italy ONE year i do yeah from playing. Over
there by, the way You speak arabic enough yet enough
to GET so i couldn't read, and write but can.
Definitely communicate get over in most Of the, arabic countries
and Then obviously FRENCH and i played, over There AND

(33:09):
italian i played, over there And then SPANISH when i
coached the argis Just, now SPANISH well i pretty. Much
learned i've watched about sixty Episodes, of NARCOS so i
was good, to go you know. With, subtitles well All
the latin languages are pretty. The same you just got
to get your head. Around it and OF course i
just said, To them i'm going to speak in your
Language and i'm going to make a lot. Of mistakes

(33:29):
so you just helped me on, the way, you know
which turned out to be a bit of a team
building thing in itself to. The.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Plage, yeah yeah so You coached.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Italy yea THEN then i went to came Back to australia.
My father that's when my, father PASSED and i stayed
HERE and I coached randwick for a few years and
then got the Position at leinster and then FROM there
i went start FROM say i actually Was, AFTER leinster
i said to, my wife let's have a, you BREAK

(33:58):
because i could have, continued THERE but i think we
wanted to have. A break we had a young one
just born who was fifteen months and we had twins
that were about to be born, after that so we
would have been three round. To two so we thought
we'd take a. Year off we Went to paris where
we had a place to have a, year off and
then they went on to fire. Their coach it was

(34:18):
there within a, few months and in fact It was
i'd made friends With the argentinian CREW because I Coached
felipe Contempami and leinster for, those years and they came and, told,
me said Come. Coach. St francis there's a few of,
them THERE and, i, Thought well i'm here, as well,
you know which isn't the real way to prepare for
when you're going to. Do something but coach, start, front

(34:38):
say for a couple, of years and then from there
came back To the waratars and Then after Wiretar's coach Astraight.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Coach astraight SO if i asked you What Was michael
checker's style relative to interaction with players during that period
of Coaching the, australian side how would you describe your style?

Speaker 3 (34:58):
Looking, Back yeah i'm pretty. Honest GUY like I think
i'm very honest, with players whether it's in the positive or.
The negative, you KNOW sometimes i like players to focus,
on strengths, you know not, on weaknesses because if they're
Playing for australia and they've got a, certain weakness it means,
it's there you KNOW what, i mean it's something that
they've had From YOUNG so i don't need them to

(35:20):
the chance that they're going to turn that into. A
strength you'd need hours and hours and hours and hours
of practice that you don't have by. That stage so
you need to handle and you need to be competent in.
That Area but i'd rather than, you know be doing
what they're. Good at so how do you what do
you do map?

Speaker 1 (35:38):
That out do you certainly see sit down with the
gin to talk to? The players did you ask you
would you say to the, plan, so okay what do
you think your strengths?

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Are weaknesses or do you tell them what?

Speaker 3 (35:46):
You know this comes, from them, you know, BECAUSE yeah
i think they also have to be aware of What,
THEY'RE unfortunately i think a lot of guys when you
ask them to evaluate themselves or. PLAY it i talk
about guys that only coach the, man right so that
they evaluate themselves in a. Negative way maybe it's because of, the,

(36:07):
well YEAH because i don't know if it's a, cultural
thing it's, all poppies or instead of just being accurate
and being comfortable, to, SAY yeah i did this, really
WELL or i think this is, MY strength i can go.
To there whenever you give them a chance to, Score
themselves i'll always score. THEMSELVES well a lot of, THE
guys i WON'T say olli of them would score themselves

(36:28):
on the. Lower LEVEL and i think that that's Something
without you've got to, stay humble but you've also got
to have gone strong. Self belief that is a really
important part of building a, winner's mindset, you know because
if you don't, stay humble you'll, be humbled that's. For
sure but you've also got To know i've, Got this
i'm going to. MAKE account i can make. This happen

(36:49):
because when you think, like that it actually makes the
guy next to you feel a little bit more like
he can think, like that and soon one. So forth
it's that's what happens inside of the, team environment when
when a critical few start thinking in a, certain way
the others.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Come along BECAUSE when, I know i don't know whether
the viewers, know this but TWO things i, know, about
well there's TWO people i know one thing they both have,
in common and that's You And trent robinson that most
people who don't know you don't realize that you're both
sort of quite what's?

Speaker 2 (37:24):
The word this will? Be, INTERESTING well I know i
find both of you very similar in.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
One aspect obviously know rob are better, than you but
like in, one aspect there is a common denominator between
the two, of you which is.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Probably one of the reasons you get both get on.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
So well is you're both, very thoughtful quite pensive, about
Things like i'll probably take you to the next level intellectual.
About stuff you even get a little bit weird in
the way you intellectually. INTELLECTUALIZE things i can't imagine what
yours and his conversations. ARE like, I mean i Speak
to Robert fair bit and, he's like even when we

(37:59):
were in, Jiu jitsu robo will be asking. Our coach
our coach is trying to show us, a Drill but
robbo wants, to, know okay but once we do, that
drill what's the reason? For that Is the mark's going
to grab me on the leg or is he going to?
Do Something and robber wants to go right through to the,
very end he wants to know every, single step what's

(38:19):
the relevance of that drill relative to, every step and
what's every? Step MEAN until i get to the END
and i can, see him Even when i'm wrestling, WITH
him i can feel. HIM think i Actually feel robo
thinking about what's going, on here like, you know WHAT
do i? Do This and he'll have thirty alternatives and
they're both, very, similar WHICH as, i said birds of

(38:41):
a feather tender. Stick together so that, intellectualizing process not
just by the way in terms, of footy but probably
everything you do in.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
YOUR life i class that is a little.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
BIT weird i don't mean a bad, way way but
not normal sort. Of thing it's sort of like nearly. Geeky,
like whereas but whereas your reputation was check is a,
tough bastard says what, he thinks and if you don't
do what, he says, you know like you're going to

(39:12):
ram it down their throat top of thing reputation back
in two, The fifteen whereas, actual fact You and robo are.
Very similar you think a lot, about stuff you really do,
the research but a part of that you think it through.

Speaker 3 (39:24):
Every, MOVE well i think as a coach, in particular
if you're organized, that way you do need to think
it right the way through because you're catering for all
the players and how they might see, the game not
just one. Or two so some might see just what's
happening in front of them and just, play that and

(39:44):
some are Playing, out OKAY if i, do this how
is that going to? Pan out? Down THERE and i
think you've got to be able to see that chain
of events unfold no matter what. It is even if
you're watching, A movie i'm always wanting to know what's
happening at the end before it. Even starts supposed to
sit through it, or predicting trying, to predict oh this
what's going?

Speaker 2 (40:00):
To be it's by. Playing CHESS well.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
I should have played MORE because i have never, really
played to. Be, honest yeah thinking about the, MOVES ahead
i suppose in. That way and it's also from A like,
i said from a catering point of view to all,
the players because they all have a different way of
looking at. The game they'll ask, different questions so you
can help. Articulate ideas you have strategies that you want to,

(40:26):
bring in or a technical element that you're trying to
help that player to see, because often especially when it
comes to, contact area a lot of players it's hard
for them to see because of the different, Appropriate reception
like you can't see your body always when it's in
a low position and it's in a contact and you don't,
feel it like sometimes you think, you're high, you're low
but you're actually.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
High yourself.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
That's RIGHT and i think that if you can see
the knock on effects of those things and how they'll
play out of, the end you're able to explain more
things to a wider group. Of people because mark anytime
you're up there talking to the lad so say you
got thirty in your squad or thirty, five whatever there's
probably ten eight to ten different ways of interpreting what.

(41:11):
You're saying people are interpreting it in. SMALL groups i
wouldn't say everyone's different in, that way but they could
be thinking about. It differently so you've got to try
and cater. For everyone and you can almost see it
when you look in their eyes or how when you're talking,
to them if you've got them or if you haven't
got them at that any. GIVEN time i think as
far as the other, BITS concerned i don't do myself
any favors Sometimes and i'm on the. Coach's Box but

(41:32):
i'm the type of person who likes to get. It
Out but i'm always thinking or even SOMETIMES if i,
do it it's CALCULATED because i WANT to i want A,
CERTAIN yeah i want a certain outcome for people who
are looking. OR people i won't say every, time yeah because.
It is you put a lot, into it and you've
got to keep a table on. Your emotions, but yeah

(41:53):
sometimes it's strategized.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Because and it's interesting you just said that that you
might have a team of fifteen or at results, on
whatever but just say the fifteen.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Of that you might have five groups of three.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Just to make it easy who interpret whatever you're saying
differently based on how they think them. As individuals so
you've sort of nearly got to be a psychologist in
some respects because you really need to have. Everybody profiled
you need to profile each person as to how he receives.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
Your message definitely that is, so important and you know
you try to get and even asking the. RIGHT questions
i coached a Fellow in france who was an, international player, great,
player right but at training he wasn't the greatest trainer of,
All time and often when we were doing, closed drills
so things that wasn't open, field playing it was more

(42:50):
designed towards the technical part of the game or to
have a certain outcome in. This, scenario now often when
we use those you map out the field with and
you get yourself. Sorted, OUT well i could never work
out why he was never quite at the level that he.
Should be SO finally i asked the, right QUESTION which
i should have asked. Months before what's going? On? Here

(43:11):
mate how come color blind? Con wear the colors of
the cones never? Told me so that it can be.
THAT simple i think you just need. To know you
need to ask as many questions as possible and get
to know the guys in. Different ways and you could
profile without doing it in a formal format, as well

(43:33):
in a non insulting form exactly because you. Can't look they,
can't think oh he's. Profiling ME but i think there's
some times. You can you can say we want to
want to get into character a little. Bit more as
long as you're explaining to fellows what you're, up to,
YOU know, i think and you're transparent on. That front
and then there's other times where you can, do it
and then you have to be able to make sure
that you're keeping the continuity of notes because. People change,

(43:56):
people change they, get older, you know it's, quite normal
they get. More, EXPERIENCE yeah i think most, players do
and they that you've got to map those changes so
you don't pigeonhole one person as like this now and, you,
know oh they'll always be, like that because that's not.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
The case so he said something very INTERESTING which i
wouldn't mind. Exploring it but as, a coach. IT'S funny
I was i've never thought about, this before but basically
what you're just saying is made me think about it as.
A coach i always just assumed as about the coach telling,
the players but you're saying to me as a coach
is probably equally important as to. Asking players so, you

(44:35):
know asking them asking you asking the. Right questions you
asking them the right questions as opposed to encouraging them
to ask you the right questions so you can deliver
the answers to their to.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
THE questions, i mean how do you how do you
work out the blend of?

Speaker 3 (44:49):
That, stuff, well again it depends on the level that
you're coaching out as well when you're at the international
level In. Coaching, australia yeah, those players they don't they're
better PLAYERS than i ever would. Have, been like they
don't need me to tell them how to. Play footy
they've got most of the answers inside of their. Own
head it's just like. Business coaching it's, the same, you
know it's about getting the person to find the, solutions

(45:12):
themselves guided through the framework that we have as. A
team because that's what you're doing as. A cach you're
putting those you're putting all those different talents together to make.
A team the individual development of, those players especially at,
that level it's really been done and being done at
their club Teams In, super rugby in rugby or if
it's With the kangaroos Or in origin in their rugby

(45:34):
league teams that they're playing for during. The WEEK so
i think, that yes you can help develop that a
little bit if there's things they want to work on.
Longer term but the times you've got them, in camp
but there's not a real lot of a lot of moving.
For that and, by rights when they're playing at the,
international level that's where they are that's where they're playing against.

(45:55):
The best they're the best in. Their game so in, that,
position yeah and so they should be hard that their
skills should be.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Had already not a skill thing they need, from you
but You need but do they if they?

Speaker 3 (46:06):
Want?

Speaker 2 (46:06):
It yes but do they ever ask?

Speaker 3 (46:09):
For? It, Yeah, definitely yeah lots. Of players they players
are quite attuned TO the i think it's about they
want to. Do it it's about their new helping them
give them the correct framework for what they want to.
Work on because if you're looking to improve, a skill a,
certain skill it might need small, reps daily a bit

(46:30):
of a, technical fix and then small reps on that
technical fix daily on, training days just a short amount
of time all the way through the year and just
see the. Incremental gain and but focus that they're improving
that technical part of. Their game don't you say practice
and not follow up on the quality of, the practice
because there's no point of practicing the wrong thing?

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Is there but and is An, objective michael for you
to sit there be and be the observer to them
and feed. Them back so because, They listen i've been
watching practice made, but blah just what you're? Not doing
this is when you're doing, this well but maybe you
can just a little bit of edge on because they can't,
see themselves.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
That's right or hear what they're how they think, it's
going because their perception of how it's going is often
different to what's. Actually, happening yeah totally, know that especially
if you depending on your mindset at. That time, you
know and you've got to Think about i've always got
to pay attention. To results so what's?

Speaker 1 (47:21):
The?

Speaker 3 (47:22):
OUTCOME right i think that's the last step of that
for the for. The person but if there it might
be something, in kicking could be in passing, and tackling
or you could be looking to get just an immediate
turnaround and that can be just a technical fix of.
The player, you know the penny drops for them and
a change is straight away and. That's it. That's done how's?

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Checker evolved what's the difference between checking today and? Twenty
five it's actually, Ten years so what's.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
The, DIFFERENCE look i think If you're i'm, always learning,
you know from the very start of either playing to
coaching and then all the way through whether it was
you KNOW what i learn's along the way at lengths
that took me into The war ATARS what i, learned
there and you've always got your your doubts and. Your fears.
You know EVEN when i Was, AT waratars I thought

(48:09):
i Win One european Cup in Ireland in europe and
we came to A super RUGBY and I was i had,
my doubts like will with the style of Footy that
i'm preparing work In The. SOUTHERN hemisphere i hadn't coached.
It before THAT'S why i particularly targeted a Guy Like
dale gibson who'd been Coaching. At crusaders so he gave
me that sort of bouncy sounding board, to, say, okay

(48:31):
yeah this will this, is okay this will. Work out
you can continually articulate your IDEAS and i think as you,
go ALONG like i never expected even to Be. Coaching
australia then you know at the time when, it happens
it did happen quite quickly and. By surprise so. You
do you learn your way through and you learn. New
things the, game's changing the players, are CHANGING and i

(48:51):
should change, as well, not change evolve and learn, new
things but still have the same PRINCIPLES that i think
are important to, the game because they're not things that
you're going, to change and it's about how you then
Integrate THOSE whether i WAS doing I suppose i used
a lot of different TECHNIQUES when i Was. WITH argentina
i took a look, at culturally, you know what would

(49:12):
suit them best as far as, their culture like The
more latin, style culture AND what i could bring as
a coach and what they needed from me as. A
coach was it More An anglo saxon mindset, around. Organization
etc or is it MORE which i can flick between
the two obviously because of, my HERITAGE and i think
that evolution is for me has been more a learning

(49:34):
process along the way of, different things not just inside,
of rugby, around psychology, you know around, business management things
that you can learn that the tools that you can
then go and apply back, To football how you deal,
with people how you deal with the, management above, you
know all those types OF things i think that you
want to do as, a person, you know in order
to achieve, the challenges whether it's a business challenge or

(49:56):
a sporting one in. This instance. You know so, for
me it's not about EVOLVING so i can do. Something
else it's about making sure you keep learning, new things keep.
Getting better that's really important to me. Keep IMPROVING and
i know it's not a direct any. A line, you
know it's not from here. To there i'm going to keep.

(50:16):
Going up that there's ups, and downs and how you
recover from, those Downs which i've always been really good
at and then try to turn those negatives into positives
and get something. From THEM so i think it just
comes also with. Experience too, you know you've had so
many experiences that you've seen so many, things before and
you're always trying. To modify HOW can i do? That
better WHAT would i have done in this SITUATION if

(50:37):
i had a chance to hit, It again because those
situations will come again no matter who, you're coaching and
that's when you've got to act, on that otherwise the
previous experience.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Is worthless it's funny because that sort of takes it
back to the very beginning when you're talking about your
dad AND if i could use the word bold as
a part of that as an adjective to, describe him
like he was bold in, other words he would just
take things on and no, matter what even when he wasn't.
Physically well, bold attitude like just Coming, to australia like

(51:07):
in itself is a pretty bold attitude arriving here with
probably not very, much money nowhere, to go and it sort.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Of seems like you're a bit of a reflection of
that in.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
Some respects and you've, you know you've coached, Your country
you've coached. Your state You've coached ramwick like you know
at a, top level, you know, top level first grade.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
Like environment you've coached As Cis. Rabia league You've.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
Coached lebanon you've Coached, in ireland you're currently Coaching. In
england you've Coached in france Like you've you've Coached everywhere
you've gone and just done all these, weird things and
you know those experiences are really important. To you one
of THE experiences i wanted to ask you about which
not many people know, about this but can you take
me back to when you Worked For college dinnigan Or With,

(51:54):
college dinnigan because here's, a bloke here's a, footy head
but was in in the, fashion industry and talk.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
About bold that's right, out there talk.

Speaker 3 (52:04):
About IT but I think i've always liked to. HAVE
that i think MAYBE when i, WAS younger I didn't
i couldn't. Articulate it in, this way but. About balance
you so often now when, you, go okay we've got
to be obsessed, about winning which you do if you're going,
to win if you're going to be in the five
percent or, seven percent you've got to. Be obsessed you
want to, Be good you've got to. Be obsessed so

(52:25):
if there's, the scales you tip the scales down there.
Of obsession but you want to, have balance which, is
important so that instead of just being less obsessed to
keep the scale. More balanced i'd rather do things that
are totally off kilter To what i'm doing on the
other side of it to bring the. Balance Back and
i've always tried to, do that whether it's do some
crazy Course and i'm absolutely not qualified, to do or

(52:48):
get a Job that i've not qualified, to do and
led into having. A business so basically what Happened was
i'd been, playing overseas so like we're talking, ABOUT before
i learned speak the land which is, over there AND
then i came home, MID nineties I decided i was
going to have some time Back in, australia permanently and
the game started. Going pro there was That Whole World

(53:09):
rugby corporation THING and i was involved in that that,
never HAPPENED and i went back to the establishment and
players started. Getting PAID and i had the opportunity to
go into pro, rugby THEN and i FIGURED that. I
would i didn't really. WANT to i liked the idea
of having the opportunity to still. Possibly TRAVEL so i
needed to get, a, job right that. Was IT and
i hadn't really worked, a lot to, be, honest, school yeah,

(53:33):
you know playing footy and doing a few bits. And
pieces and my cousins had a couple of shops Up
in paddington and. Fashion STORES and i saw The job atison.
THE day i used to look in, the, newspaper right
and they wanted a. Business manager And hopefully collein is
not watching so he won't, find Out but i'm sure.
SHE knows i. SORT of i had the languages which,

(53:53):
he wanted and embellished, the rest, you know IN my
cv as many a person has done. The job and
it worked. Out perfectly, you know she was brilliant to.
WORK with i. Spent there we were like a rep,
resist manager like sort of ran the staff or what
you have to?

Speaker 2 (54:10):
What's up where'd you?

Speaker 1 (54:11):
Go?

Speaker 3 (54:11):
To? Russia russia that was a different story rate Going.
To russia it wasn't With.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Colin RUSSIA and i don't want to, stitch up but
someone has briefed me on, this stuff.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
SO well i had those experiences, back then by, the
way ninety one it was that was, even before just
straight after she. Was before It was gorbatrov just coming
In the soviet well without jumping all over. THE place
i was playing Foot, in FRANCE and i was Playing
in paris at, the Time if i'm, Not wrong and

(54:43):
my cousin who was, living there Knew this american lady
who was selling software back in, the time and for
some reason they didn't. Want that they she was going
to sell to A big russian industrial we were they
wouldn't send, a, tech right and so they said she
could take it a local TECH and i, Don't know,
they said do you want To. COME russia i had
no idea about. Computers WHATSOEVER so i basically got a

(55:06):
glossary of, computer terms learned as many WORDS as, i
could and then went there. With her and it. Was
amazing it was. Genuinely amazing so we Went to, MOSCOW
first i won't go through all the hassles we got get,
in there And then we went to a place Called,
your kettrenberg which was spurred lost IN, the USSR where
I Think boris yeltsen. Was from originally it's where they

(55:27):
killed the czar in. Rushing, industry, yeah so and they
was she was selling to these people THERE and i
went into a room with fifty computer PROGRAMMERS and i had,
no IDEA like i had, an interpreter. Thank god it
was very. Mixed up but they didn't care BECAUSE all
i wanted to know was what was going on in.

(55:49):
The west that Was IT like i was the first
person they'd ever spoken to from Outside. Of russia it
was like this DURING. The ussr it was just Out,
after perastroker so there was a lot of poverty there
obviously at. That time That was it was quite sad
and that, that part but it was it. Was crazy

(56:10):
we had such a great time just sitting around talking
about what was the questions they. Asked me they gave
me giftsmatgish from there and then it was. Pretty fun
like that night they did the deal and of course
back to the dasher and drink the vodka and eat
like and the girl who was running the show she,
passed Out so i'd stay there with these guys up

(56:30):
until about four am, And, literally mark you would have
to take Your luggage foreigners, One way russians, the other
and you'd have to put your, own bag like your
your hold bag into the hole of the plane and
then just walk up the. Stairs there it was hectic
and it was such a, brilliant experience like to, go

(56:51):
there even though it was it had a few issues
at the time getting in and, getting out but to
go there and have THESE and i think those experiences,
For me i've always liked to have a total different
life away, from rugby doing some, crazy things some other
things of learning or whatever, it IS so i can
keep BALANCE because i can be quite obsessed about about

(57:12):
trying to win or have my team be the best
that they. Possibly can and you've got to do some things.
LIKE that i think all. The time i've got to
have that mentality to keep.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Yourself balanced can you bring that richness of life into
the rugby inside and that winning that and help them
learn how to be winning a winning organization again and
bring the pride Back.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
To, AUSTRALIA well i think the pride's. Always. THERE man
i understand people, want results but, you know ANY time
i see, them play, you know Even when i'm not
obviously not being the coach for many, Years now i'm
very proud of. The colors, you know my kids are
still proud Of. The colors and the, thing is when
you Play, for australia you're not just playing for the.

(58:01):
Rugby fans you're playing. For everyone and that's a really
different that's a different feeling that the, different responsibility but
it's a responsibility should. Be ENJOYED and i think one
thing that we should be doing is having that belief
in yourself because that comes with belief. IN yourself i
can do, DIFFERENT things i can be a different type
AND when i cross the, white line this Is what.

(58:23):
I'm doing that comes to.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
You naturally how are YOU because, i mean look, at
you you've gone. To rushold but how can you?

Speaker 3 (58:28):
Bring that Create young you create the environment that lets them.
Do that, you know they've got to be able to.
Do that let them do that while working on their
craft and being best at in their their in working
in their craft and their skills and having a mindset
working individually with players all. THE time i think that's.
Really important letting them have an individual and having the
time to, do, That mate because one thing is really.

(58:50):
IT'S interesting i always say to the Guys where i'm,
at NOW if i just SPEND if i want to
talk to you for, five minutes all of you each
for five minutes, after train which is not a, long
conversation it's going to take me three and a half
hours because how many are in. The squad so the
time that you take and the ability to pay that
individual attention because that's the. Next level there's there's the,

(59:11):
footy coaching and there's that next level of bringing people
out so they can be, better person, better, player happy
enjoy the responsibility because it is it's high stakes when
you get out of that's the joy of. Test footy
it's high stakes and you want to enjoy that experience
even though there's, you know they. SAY pressure i don't think.

(59:31):
It is it's just, you know there's there's lots on
the line and you've got to enjoy. That experience and.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
It did and there's my final, question too is a,
bit CHEEKY though i did fill war disclosed to you
whether or not they're Talking to nathan clearly to bring
him over to play for.

Speaker 3 (59:44):
The world about that, one mate there was. No disclosure what's?
THAT disclosure i think there's a lot like as you,
can see there's the games as far away as they
might be in a lot, of areas they're very close.
In others, You know i've been seeing Many Players Marika
corobetti israel For our there's been sa many. Different players
you've come, And Gone Sonny, bill williams Lots Of. Ben

(01:00:05):
teo there's there's there's, examples ever and, you know even
look you Look At, sam burgess he. WENT there i
think he was totally Mishandled by england when they had
the opportunity. He was if he was given that, one
position blind, side flanker go and do what, you do
he would have killed it. As well, you know he
still did well in itself playving to play in a really.
DIFFICULT position i think it's just about being able to.

(01:00:25):
Do THAT and i think it's the same for rugby
guys going the. Other way at, this point, you know,
YOU look i Think there's MARK and I long i need.
To ask he has been Playing, for Roosters the young
five eights going up to play With, The TITANS so
i think that there's there's there's crossover, both ways and
the difference will be that is always around. The mentality
if you're if you've got the, good mentality you'd be

(01:00:46):
able to play both. Quite easily the strong, that mentality
like you talk about Players, Like Soney, bill williams, et
cetera who have the ability that the mindset to succeed.
IN both i think that that's something that's going to
happen in, the future whether the different organizations like it,
or NOT and i think that it'll be it'll be
great when we see players crossing over.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
MORE often i have just one, more question and just
as Regarding The, south africa.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Just as an observation from your point, Of view i'd
be interested to hear.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
The Answer south africa doesn't seem to be to me
anyway today watching them doesn't seem to be the same
spring box as we got in the mid nineties With
The town straussers of. THE world i think he might
have been playing It for australia, that stage but like
early on when he was captain and captain in The,
spring box, that toughness that sort of, you know, LIKE
literally I mean town told me that when he was,

(01:01:35):
a kid he used father used to drive alongside a
wilder bee small will to bees.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
And push him off and make him try and tackle it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
From behind there's sort of stuff you See these, dagistani
wrestlers their kids are. Wrestling bears i've seen it on
videos like IN the ufc today that sort OF like i,
DON'T know i don't know how to, explain it but
it's sort of like a dual or die mentality That the.
Springboks had it doesn't seem to exist today in so.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
Think across the border that it's not as there's because
of the building of pathways to, come through like you
can play as a young player here and go through go.
Through there all of that older school style of getting
to the top maybe has disappeared a, Little BIT but
i still think that those that do go down that
road that still are they can parallel that with modern,

(01:02:28):
day pathway. Et cetera they do that little, bit extra
they get that little bit. Extra edge they'll always have
the advantage because they'll be doing something that their opponents
or their competition. Are DOING and i Think The south
Africans have while they may have gone away, from that
what they've done is they've their play a pool is,
hugely increased, you know as things have CHANGED since, aparti days.

(01:02:48):
Et cetera and they've got vicious competition, for places and
that can cause in itself the competition to be better
and practice harder and do what you need. To do
and that's why they're double world, champions now last Last
Two World, world cups and their probably favorites to go
into this one coming up as going for.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
A triple because sitting opposite me here in your chair
about three, weeks ago three, WEEKS ago i had Drink
as DUPLESSIS The Ufc south AFRICA And ufc middleweight champion of,
the world and he has that THING that i was
talking about in RELATIONS that i observed With town strauss
back in, the nineties who was lucky enough to know

(01:03:30):
he actually worked for one of, my BUSINESSES and I
just i start observing and Thinking About south africa just
doesn't seem to have. That Hardness and i'm always interested
to know from people, like you because you strike me
as a person who's a student of rugby union but
you know in that you're always observing and always, watching

(01:03:50):
it but you're also seem to be a student.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Of rugby league probably, footies.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
Football as in soccer and all the other team sports
probably maybe even other sports.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Individuals boards is that a thing?

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
For you is that like part of your obsession Is
That michael CHECKER that i need, to, understand, learn observe
be curious process without.

Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
A doubt, YOU know i was LAST week I spent
i was lucky enough To spend Thursday at silverston with
McLaren and the. Testing day, you know they had the two.
Cars out spent the whole day there. With them it,
was incredible, you know and even just some of the
way they communicate around the, pit wall the things that
we could. Help us, YOU know i, feel like HOW

(01:04:32):
can i have more impact on the game when, it's
happening because sometimes you've got to try. And grow what
type of influence you. Can have what's the communication method?
We use because there's guys are listening to maybe twelve
or fourteen audio channels at the. Same time they just
dial in and dial out of what they need, to
do and and they're talking about life, and death you
KNOW what i, mean here like when they're driving at.

(01:04:52):
That speed so the, chief engineers their communications are telling
me that their communications a post race will get reviewed by,
YOU know i think military or something, like that so
that they can they've got a really clear process in
how their. Communications going just to see, different sports how,
they work what the things that we have that they

(01:05:14):
don't and things that they do that, we don't and
what could be taken across what community even just, For
general it's amazing to see how some of the other
sports Are that i've been lucky enough to go in,
and see WHETHER it's nfl football or IN the uk
or any of. Those things so many transferable processes or
skills that we can use in our game.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
As well if there was a team sports person around the,
world today my final question that you could sit down
with and spend a couple of, hours with.

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
Who would that be team?

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Sports, person yeah like a person playing in a team
and it could be someone who's maybe recently retired or
whatever the case it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Would be there's a. Few Guys obviously messi would be. Very,
interesting yeah because of his long jay, for stuff longevity
and also how if you look at The Last world cup,
of football how the team played almost for him as
well as for, the country and the influence that he
has and the stories you hear. ABOUT him i have.

(01:06:13):
Met him but the stories you hear about him as,
a pro, YOU know i think you see a guy
Now Like, tom brady, for example he's talking a lot
more Right, about messi he's got a there's something different.
About him, you know he's got a, real humility even
though he's like one of. The biggest he's got a
great balance in the way he's he's sporting career, has

(01:06:37):
gone with the ups and, the downs and what, he's
maintained how he's loved by, his country and the way
he's affected. Other teammates i'd say if there was one right,
now playing he'd probably be.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
The, GUY, YEAH messi i agree.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
WITH You I actually i don't know exactly, which YEAR
but i remember see him In A world, cup final
and it feels like it might have been in, two
thousand like it might have Been.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
In rome not, a final but in the build up to.
THE final i. Don't remember it's nearly twenty.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
Years Ago the sea's longevity is amazing, to me like
how someone can last that long at. That level and
it's not like he played. More recently it's not like
he's been played the same as he did when he.
Was younger he adapted his game to allowing him, to
play to play at the, top level but not expecting
himself to be the same as he. Always was in,
other words, you know like your physicality sort of reduces

(01:07:27):
as you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
Get older things you. Can't do they's just things you
can't do that you could do when.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
You're younger but he's sort of managed to work all
that shit out and adapt his game but still be at.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
The top his mentality, Is amazing but.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
That's it it's about having the mentality, that you first,
of all you can be, the best because that's the.
First battle, You know i'll never be, the best there's
too many good people players better, than, well no you
can be. The best then working out what's the plan
for me to be the best and stick to it
even when maybe you aren't the best and you won't
be the best all. The time But then i'll come
back and. Be there and, that mentality, that ambition IT

(01:08:01):
drives I remember i became good friends and still Am
with Alessandro del piero when he Played AT. Sydney fc
that guy was like. Uber prepared he was he could
have just come here and, cruised right but he had
his own fitness man coach his own, you know the
detail he went through with his, soccer review the review of.
The games he was forty and still killing. It here,

(01:08:21):
YOU know i think that that mentality of those those
types of. Champion Players and i'm sure there's lots of
them in, other sports. You know, YOU know i think
even in the League, in union there's, there's, this guys.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
Don't sure evans is a, good. Example unbelievable. HIS preparation
i hear stories about his preparation. Is Legendary James dedesca
teddyke is a great measure, Of everything like he's he
knows how well, He slept he knows what his deep,
sleep was he knows who his ram, sleep WAS and,
i before. Et cetera he knows his recovery rates as

(01:08:54):
a percentage of his normal process down to. Mathematical stuff
AND and i think that's.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
THEIR longevity i think.

Speaker 3 (01:09:02):
It is and it's also not just. About longevity it's
part of why they got to the very very top
in the, first place because. They're able they probably didn't
know those things at, the start but they learned those
things along. The way they took them with them and
kept them. Going on, YOU know i think that's that's
really important for all players to, understand that because they
can be. The best one day everyone was playing third

(01:09:25):
grade and then the next year they're playing. First grade for,
some reason. It HAPPENS and i think that it starts
with that seed of that mindset inside, of you, Not
okay i've made, it now so Now i'll i'll do
all the THINGS like messi was probably doing all of
Those things i'd imagine from way. Back when to become
the player he's become today and have the longevity that

(01:09:46):
he's had in practice is.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
SO important I Remember nathan Cleary and ivan who was
sitting here late this year or late late, LAST year i,
should say After The, grand final the Week After, grand
final saying How much nathan practices like he's practiced regime,
after draining but neverone else is, going home is out of.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
This world like he just keeps kicking and keeps kicking and.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Keeps In And andrew johns used to say the same
thing about, his kicking, you know practicing banana kicks and
all these unusual Kicks that joey used to be able.
To DO and i think that's probably, YOU know i
see the. Business too the best business people of people
are practicing there all their stuff all.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
The time always, never stop.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
THAT'S right I remember nathan he came out. ONE day
i asked him to come OUT when i Was. Coaching
argentina he came and kicked with the lads. One day.
YOU know i still over bottom, mailback Actually which i've
got to send him somewhere along. The way he was
just his knowledge of what he spake to the GUYS
that i even spake to the guys In The. World
cup they were still in. Twenty three they were still
talking about. It now he that type. Of THING and

(01:10:46):
i think that, those GUYS like, i Say Even, andrew
johns who are creative types, as well all that crazy
stuff that they do. They PRACTICE so I REMEMBER. Brian.
A driscoll i've. COACHED him i was lucky enough to
coach him for, many years and he was always practicing
mad stuff, for training. You know and then one day
he pulls it off in. A game he threw IT
over i think they were on. The edge he threw

(01:11:07):
it over the, winger's head ran around the back of
him and then caught, it himself ran down. The silid
but it Had Normally coach will, blow up what's he?
Doing here but you saw him practicing those things. At
training so once those things he believes he can, do
it so the. Seed's sown then he practices how he,
does it and then he goes out and, does it
and if it succeeds, or fails it doesn't matter because

(01:11:27):
he's been through the pray and that's what gives you
the belief that things are going to go Well because i've,
done it, YOU know, I mean i've, Prapped it i've.
Done it i'm ready. To Go.

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
MICHAEL scheker i wish you the.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
VERY best i know you're Off to lester that's IN
the uk as Opposed to ireland to continue the finishing
off your season for. Your CLUB and i really enjoyed.
Our conversation like it's we got into the weeds. A
bit hopefully everybody that wasn't too much, for you but
we got in the weeds a, little BIT but i.

Speaker 2 (01:11:55):
Really enjoyed good on.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
You mate thanks my pressure