#220 Wyatt Roy: Australia’s Youngest Ever MP on Saudi Arabia’s Vision & the Future of Innovation

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
White Roy. Welcome straight to it.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Mate, here you going, great to be here, great to
have a chat.

Speaker 3 (00:04):
Well here, you're not here, actually you're all the way
over in is it Read?

Speaker 4 (00:09):
I am in Read, which in the middle of summer
is the best place in the world. Actually, it's glorious
and sunny and blue skies and one of the most
interesting places on the planet, I think.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
And just to explain everybody read being in Saudi Arabia,
it'll just give us a bit of a broader aspect
of where you are, like physically, like in the world,
like relative to some places, because a lot of people
don't even know where Saudi Arabia is.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
I mean obviously the Middle East, but where generally, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:35):
I mean it's one of the most highly kind of
strategic and connected places in the world. If you think
about it in terms of the map, you can get
to an enormous percentage of the world's.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Population within a few hours.

Speaker 4 (00:47):
So strategic in the Middle East, but you know, a
few hours flight to Europe and a few hours flight
to Asia, a little bit longer to America and Australia.
But it is this really beautiful part of the world,
very strategic in terms of how you can move goods
and services around the world. And obviously it's a a

(01:09):
rapidly growing and developing part of the world as well.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
So it's a.

Speaker 4 (01:12):
Real kind of hub that is opening up to people
from across the globe. And now there are thousands and
thousands of people moving here and starting to call it home.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
And we'll talk a little bit later about sort of
who White Roy was many years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
It seems like a long time ago. It wasn't that
long ago, but a.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Few years not that old yet.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Well, you're still like mid thirties, I'd say, about thirty
five or something like that. But what are you doing
in read or in Saudi Arabia? What are you doing
in read now in Saudi Arabia?

Speaker 1 (01:46):
What are you doing right now?

Speaker 4 (01:47):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:47):
What's your role?

Speaker 4 (01:48):
So up until this week and a bit of a
exclusive for you and the listeners, the head of innovation
at Neon, which is one of the most exciting projects
on the planet. It's an incredibly beautiful part of the
world in northwest Saudi Arabia. It's actually the size of
Belgium that's been developed as part of the economic transition

(02:09):
of the kingdom.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
And so up until this week.

Speaker 4 (02:12):
I was head of Innovation for the last two years,
an incredible kind of chapter where I worked with people
across the country, you know, across innovation, whether that's entrepreneurs, investors, funds, agencies,
research and development institutions to help drive that economic transition
and really how we can look at solving those the

(02:34):
big challenges in the world across you know, name the
different verticals, whether that's healthcare or education, or mobility or energy,
to help ultimately drive that economic transition, but to help
make a better world. And so I've had two years
of doing that which has been absolutely incredible but maybe
a little bit of an exclusive for you now moving
on to the next chapter, which I won't be able

(02:56):
to say just yet what it is, but working with
really people in the region as well doing the next thing,
which I'm very excited about but incredibly grateful which for
what has been a life changing experience to work with
some of these people in this remarkable country.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
So when you say Neoon, maybe you speak like as
if it's very familiar with it, which obviously it is,
like most of us, I sort of know what it's about,
but most Australians wouldnt know what Neon means the word
even is an unusual word.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
What is neo I'm doing?

Speaker 3 (03:29):
You talked about an innovation, you talked about perhaps sponsoring entrepreneurs,
making sure people have made discoveries, trying to basically help
the world, and you talked about economic transition for Saudi Arabia.
What are we sort of transitioning from too? What are
the objectives and in particular, what's Neon's focus.

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yeah, no, it's a great question, and it's a big project,
so it does take a while for everyone to kind
of get across it. And it just to have something
that ambitious in the modern world I think is hugely exciting.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
But it is.

Speaker 4 (04:00):
It's different, right, It's naturally different by.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
What it is.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
So let me talk through where it is and what
it looks like, and then I can talk through how
it plays a role in the bigger kind of transition. So,
as I said, it's in the northwest of Saudi Arabia,
genuinely one of the most beautiful parts of the world
that I've ever seen, so very close and connected to
the rest of the world. But it's situated along the
Gulf of Akaba and then into the Red Sea, which

(04:24):
as a Queenslander. It's really hard to say this, but
some of the most amazing reef I've ever seen anywhere.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
In the world, like as coral.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
The Red Sea.

Speaker 4 (04:34):
Coral is actually some of the most special coral anywhere
in the world because it's extremely resistant to heat, so
the Red seas the warmest sea in the world, and
these corals are incredibly vibrant and beautiful, huge sea life,
so you know, we have turtles and dolphins and whale,
sharks and every marine mammal you can kind of think

(04:55):
of existing in this pretty untouched part of the world,
you know, very kind of virgin Neil has a series
of islands that go into the Red Sea which are
absolutely stunning, and then as you hit the shoreline, you
go into this amazing mountain range which goes right up
to where we're building a resort in the mountains where

(05:16):
you'll be up to ski in the winter. So it
actually snows up there, and to give you a sense
of that, that's higher than Mount Kosiosco. So within a
few hours you go from this remarkable sea up into
these beautiful mountains where we're building this kind of resort,
and then you go out into the desert, which is
the Hizma Desert, which ultimately if you follow it through

(05:37):
to the north, hits what I rum in Jordan. So
if anyone's seeing those amazing kind of rock formations, very
much like Dune the movie, this landscape that is stunning
is the best way to say. It's very much open
to a lot of movies being filmed there now, so
it gives you a little bit of a flavor. But
this beautiful kind of desert environment, which we're actually wilding

(06:00):
with native Arabian plants and native Arabian animals, which is
one of the most remarkable environmental projects on the planet,
I would say. And that's just very large beyond that
as well, And so in this beautiful part of the world,
as I said, the size of Belgium, it's over twenty
thousand square kilometers. We are doing two big things. We're

(06:21):
building big things. I have to be careful. I'm saying
we have no on Carenz of this week there, but
we are building very very large projects. So, as I said,
the ski resort in the mountain, a highly strategic port
operated pretty much with renewable energy and sitting alongside that
the world's largest green hydrogen facility which is almost completed,

(06:44):
completely powered by renewable energy, exporting green hydrogen to the world.
People have seen the line the very significant vertical city
to be built over a long period and then ultimately
developing the whole kind of region to be a new
hub for what is a really big growing population. So
that's exciting in the sense that we're building a lot

(07:05):
of interesting things, and that's true across the entire country.
But I think what's the real story is that it's
part of the economic transition of the Kingdom. So to
kind of situate it, if you think about the Kingdom
of Saudi Arabia and Australia, similar each sized economies, similar
rich population, so about thirty six million people in Saudi

(07:26):
twenty six million in Australia, and resource based economies in transition.
So obviously the Kingdom has had this remarkable economic growth
driven predominantly by oil, and under the leadership of the
Crown Prince, there's a single national mission for the whole
country called Vision twenty thirty, which is all how do
we diversify the economy. So obviously oil is a great

(07:48):
story for the country. It's created a lot of prosperity,
but we want to diversify the economy so that we
can hand over in a greater prosperity to the next generation.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
They're opening up their society.

Speaker 4 (07:58):
So Saudi was obviously very closeciety and there's very strong
goals around creating a vibrant, a vibrant society for all Saudis,
and then it's just a very ambitious push to do that,
even though they have this long term plan in a
very short time. So the country has gone through this
remarkable transformation in about the last ten years. And to

(08:19):
give you a sense of that, you know, it's one
of the fastest growing economies in the G twenty. It's
seeing this huge kind of push into non oil industries.
So in the last twelve months, you know, about fifty
six percent of economic activity was non oil. If you
went back a decade, you're almost in single digits. So
this huge kind of shift. In the last year, about

(08:40):
ninety percent of foreign direct investment into the Kingdom was
into non oil industries, and so we're seeing that big transition.
And then lay it on top of that is just
a remarkable, very young population. So the average age of
a Saudi is twenty six, seventy percent of the country's
under thirty five, and so that it's opening up to

(09:01):
the world. And as they do that, through that diversification
of the economy, the country is making big bets in
different industries, you know, whether that's in AI or technology
or whatever it might be. And I think what's true
for Saudi and it's also true for the region, is
the sort of starting point is how do you often
use technology to address the big challenges facing the globe,

(09:23):
whether that's conservation or the environmental creating a business friendly environment,
whatever pillar of the economy is sort of focusing on.
There's a real leaning into how we use technology disruption
in a positive way to help drive that economic transition.
And so as that country goes through that change, it's
very similar to what we tried to do in Australia

(09:43):
around our National Innovation and Science agenda of how do
we create these new pillars of economic growth in those industries,
and the Kingdom has been remarkably successful in these Vision
twenty thirty. There's actually stated goals and objectives as you
go and they're basically meeting and beating all of these
which no one thought was possible a few short years ago.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
So as in KPIs KPIs.

Speaker 4 (10:05):
Yeah, which is amazing for a nation to have KPIs
on these different things over the long term. So we're
a header schedule and many of them, we're beating a
lot of those targets on many of them. And obviously
there's a long way to go, and there's big kind
of challenges in doing this, but I think with long
term vision met by kind of a national mission, it

(10:29):
creates the right ingredients to do something that frankly, I
just don't think we've seen in human history or certainly
not for a very very long time.

Speaker 3 (10:36):
And is Saudi Arabia funding all this themselves? Are they
attracting lots of investment from around the world.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
So it's a mixture of both.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
I mean, it's natural when you do this in the
first instance, that you'd want to put in a lot
of your own kind of capital to start that charge
and create the right investment environment and create a magnet
for that investment environment. But what we're seeing now is
really an explosion of private capital seeking to come into
the Kingdom, which is an interesting transition because if you
think about the Kingdom, you know, maybe ten years ago,

(11:06):
a lot of the world sort of thought of it
as almost as an ATM. You know, investors were coming
to take money out of the Kingdom. Now investments are
coming in their droves to invest into this and it's
just a large economy, right, thirty six million people. It's
about the Australians, you know, a little bit smaller, but
about the size of the Australian economy. And so we're
seeing this huge injection of private capital, whether that's through
PPP arrangements or just direct investment, and then lay it

(11:30):
on top of that, you're just seeing a really high growth,
non oil private economy. So, you know, particularly in the
area that I'm most familiar with, in the technology sector,
big explosion in private venture capital flowing into that into
that sector. And you know, there's thousands of startups in
the country now raising many hundreds of millions of dollars
in some cases that are homegrown. And you're now seeing

(11:54):
that real engine of economic activity pick up. And the
rest of the world is looking at Saudi and saying,
how do we invest in how be that?

Speaker 3 (12:00):
It's an interesting thing when you talk about the whole region.
We hear about Israel and Tel Aviv, the amazing technology
hubs that they have there and the big investments that
they have in Israel. We hear all the stories about
the UAE countries, you know, all the stuff that they're doing,
particularly around health technology in relation to Dubai n Abadabi.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
We don't hear too much in this part of.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
The world about Saudi Arabia, But Saudi Arabia actually dwarfs
all of those places, both physically and economically.

Speaker 4 (12:28):
Probably correct, but I think absolutely, I think that's true.
But the region rises together, you know, this is the
kind of change. So President Trump was here, you know,
a few months ago, and it was this incredible triple
was fortunate to sort of be in the room with him,
and you had sort of the CEO is the biggest
every if you could think of a big company on
the planet. Basically they're in the room with the President

(12:51):
and the Crown Prince. And when he was talking about
his vision for the region, he had one thing that
I think really resonated with the which is the new
model of the Middle East. And I think the Middle
East has such a difficult history. People just come to
it with those kind of biases. But the new Middle
East is one that's defined by commerce, not case, and

(13:14):
that's actually what we're seeing. We're seeing this huge influx
of talented people of capital and obviously just a booming
local population redefine the Middle East.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
And as they all kind of rise, they all benefit.

Speaker 4 (13:27):
But you're right, Saudi is by far the biggest kind
of economy out of the region because it's just a
bigger population, a bigger country, and going through a bigger transformation.
But those benefits are being shared very much across the region,
and I think if you take a twenty thirty forty
year of view, which is the beauty of this place,
you can do that. I think this really becomes one
of the hubs of the globe. The Crown Prince has

(13:52):
this saying which I completely agree with him on, where
he says Saudi Arabia is the most exciting story of
the twenty first century, just the revolution that we've seen
in the last ten years. I think he is completely right,
and to your point, it's an often untold story, but
it's one that more and more I think the world
is waking up to. And I think that's a great

(14:15):
thing for this country, but I think it's a great
thing for the world as well.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
It's interesting that you just said You're in the room
with Trump, any and every CEO of every major company
in the world, the Crown Prince and all his entourage
as well.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
You're in your mid thirties. White Roy is always for.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
Some reason, you know, I've known you for a long time.
For some reason, You've always seem to be able to
be in the company of people who influence outcomes, new outcomes, change,
especially change, And I go.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
Back to White Roy.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
Well, let's go back really a long way. We're talking
about White Roy. He's a young kid from Queensland. Tell
me a little bit about your story, like, hawd you
grow up, what was your dad doing, your mum, etc.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
Read is a long way from the strawberry farm that
I grew up in, totally pleaseland. But I am so
proud of where I came from and I'm very lucky
to kind of have that grounding in life. So I
grew up on a strawberry farm in Queensland. I'm the
first person in my family to finish high school. Brother
went on to other things, which I love, but everyone

(15:22):
in my family went to either grade nine or grade ten.
And my dad, who sadly passed away this year, he
had this saying where he was so good at grade
nine they asked him to do it twice and then
he left and obviously went into the farm. So my
family were initially citrus farmers and then strawberry farmers. At
our peak, we had about a million strawberry plants, so

(15:44):
it was a great way to kind of grow up.
I grew up on the sunny coast, so you're sort
of close enough to Brisbane, but then you've got the
grounding of the farm. We had a lot of backpackers
from all over the world working on the farm, so
you've got early exposure to interesting people. And I always
say farming, whether it's politics or business, there's a lot
of lessons that you learned from farming that I think

(16:06):
can be applied because you know, it's super high risk.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
There's a lot of things that are out of your control.

Speaker 4 (16:12):
You know, you don't know if it's going to rain
or not, you don't know what can kind of happen,
and so farmers have this, you know, I think they're
the most amazing kind of entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
No same person would go into farming, right.

Speaker 4 (16:20):
It's tough at Haart, It's all these sorts of things,
so that was the kind of environment that I grew
up in and then and then I got into politics
at a very young age. I think I'm one obviof
not the youngest directly elected person in the world.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
And then I was obviously the youngest minister as well.

Speaker 4 (16:35):
So I was a campaigning for parliament when I was nineteen,
elected when I was twenty, and minister when I was
twenty five. So you know, an amazing kind of experience
and then you know, lots of journey in life after that.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
But you also, as I recall, were part of Malcolm
Turnbull's Innovation Nation sort of game. That was something he
wanted Australia to be, which you know, unfortunately didn't work
out in the end through for Holloas. But what was
it like and what spark of an idea did you
get from Malcolm turbul during that period as one of

(17:07):
his ministers in such what seemed to me at the
time a really ambitious program for Australia.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
By the way, I wish we had done.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
It, yeah, And I think the politics of it is
really hard in Australia and that is what is so
different here. I think with a young, young population and
opening up. There's just a natural kind of acceptance of
this is what we should do. But in the Australian context,
if you think about it, it's very similar to the
Saudi story. I mean, we had a resource based economy
for a very long time, hugely successful. We had more
than a quarter of a century of uninterrupted economic growth.

(17:38):
So that's a good thing, and that was driven by
lots of things, but predominantly by you know, we have
rocks in the ground and we live close to people
that want to buy them, which which is a great thing.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
We're very lucky in that sense.

Speaker 4 (17:48):
But when I became involved in politics and was in
the Parliament, I quickly realized that there were a lot
of young Australian entrepreneurs at that time now we're going
back more than ten years, who as soon as their
business has sort of got successful, they left the country.
You know, they went to the US, they went to Singapore,
they went wherever, which in some cases is okay because
you know, you want them to get access to a

(18:08):
global market and capital, but you want them to come
back and contribute to the economy, and you want to
keep that base there to really create this pillar of
the economy and so I took a real interest in
that space. Malcolm obviously has a huge amount of passion
and ambition and vision in that space for the country.
And I would push back because on the policy front

(18:30):
we were actually quite successful, but the politics is very hard.
So if you think about it practically, what we did
was we said ten years ago, we've got this huge
economic success and engine in resources. If we're going to
hand over to the next generation of Australians a country
with more prosperity, then we do have to diversify the
economy and create a new pillar of the economy, much
like here. And so my baby was what we called,

(18:52):
as you kind of pointed out, the National Innovation and
Science Agenda. So it was a single push across government
to create the framework for the privates to take over.
So it's twenty four policies across nine government departments. I
think everything from tax changes, visa changes, education, research and development, etc.
Really modeling on best practice across the globe, sort of

(19:13):
frankly stealing some of the best ideas from these great
innovation hubs. Now, while the politics has been difficult, the
policy outcome I think is overlooked a little bit, and
I would sort of argue the point mark in ten years,
we've gone from a situation where, you know, before I
was Minister, we're investing less than two hundred million in
venture capital. That's less than we bet on the Melbourne Cup,

(19:34):
which gives them a sense of like, you know, either
Australian's bet a lot or we just weren't.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
Putting much into this sector.

Speaker 4 (19:40):
You couldn't really measure it in terms of impact to
GDP or jobs. And in ten years now, today tech
and innovation is the third biggest contributor to the Australian
economy mining financial services. Then tech and innovation is the
seventh biggest employer in the country and it's the fast
just growing jobs growth industry. So if you actually look

(20:02):
at the employment figures, you know, for the last significant period,
overwhelmingly the job's growth has come from growth within the
technology and innovation sector in the country. We've seen over
thirty billion dollars of private capital private capital flow into
venture capital in that period, so from two hundred million,
we've seen over thirty billion flow fly in and so

(20:23):
you know, there's a.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Long way to go.

Speaker 4 (20:24):
There's a lot more reform that I would have liked
to have seen happen. But the truth is from that
early push, it's now a powerhouse of the Australian economy.
I mean as a country, we've built over twenty unicorn companies,
you know, some of them with really significant valuations. There's
over one hundred companies in Australia that have over one
hundred million dollar valuation in tech and innovation, and so

(20:48):
it is creating national prosperity. It is employing millions of Australians.
We're actually on track to have one point two million
Australians working in the sector.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
By twenty thirty.

Speaker 4 (20:57):
And so I know why we love to sort of
talk ourselves down as a country, but if you look
at it on a per capita basis, Australia is punching
way above its weight. We now have this new pillar
of economic strength and ultimately what that will mean is
the next generation of Australians and just going to enjoy
more economic prosperity and have more opportunity. Now that went
out of vogue politically, and I'd love to see that

(21:20):
energy come back. I'd love to see a little bit
of what we see in Saudi Arafia actually where we're
saying this is really important. But we should be proud
of what we've done as a country because you know,
these incredible entrepreneurs and investors and researchers and scientists have
changed the Australian economy in the last ten years. And
I think what we did was we created the framework
for them to do that.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Now.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
You know, as a small government person, I'm happy when
government gets out of the way and they take over.
But I don't think we should lose that emphasis as
a nation.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
I mean, I'm going to ask you to come back
and come for politics again, mate, but like maybe your
your your new venture.

Speaker 4 (21:56):
Actually here, Mark, I got to tell you, I do
like maybe if you come into politics with me, I'll
consider it.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, well, don't worry. Maybe maybe we both have to.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
Because what's really interesting when you talk about technology or
innovation generally and entrepreneurs. One of the things you touched
on earlier was a lot of Australians have left the
shores in order to try and be successful.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
What I noticed.

Speaker 3 (22:21):
What I noticed about people who go to Singapore, people
who go to the Middle East, and people go to
the US, they're either chasing one or two one or
two things or both they're either chasing capital, which where
you are it's in abundance, not just Saudi money, but
just money coming into Saudi looking for innovation to invest
in innovation, or they're trying to find a better tax

(22:42):
environment for innovation around innovation. Well, now, whether that's some
R and D right off or whatever the case may be, citizenship,
et cetera, et cetera. Singapore does a great job at it.
They're either chasing one or tour both. Saudi seems to
have nailed both because, as I understand, you've got either
zero tax base or very low text based in Saudi

(23:04):
Arabia and there's plenty of capital.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
How important do you think that is? Because you said
there's a lot.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Of money now finding a way to Saudi Arabia. How
important is that for investors coming into Saudi apart from
the transition game that you've been talking about.

Speaker 4 (23:18):
Yeah, I think if you look at the great kind
of innovation economies around the world, whether that's the US
or Singapore or you know, other parts of the Middle East,
but particularly when you look at a per capita basis,
I think this is what policy makers or other people
sometimes think. You don't forget, is you know, the US
is remarkable because of skate. If you're the biggest economy
in the world, you're three hundred and eighty million people
and you're zero zero point five percent of that does well,

(23:40):
then it looks big by its very nature. But if
you do it on a per capita basis, I think
there are key ingredients to developing the innovation economy.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
So I think you're right on capital.

Speaker 4 (23:51):
I think it's access to capital, but I also think
it's the skill set to deploy that capital the right way.
That's actually kind of the hard part you often find. So,
you know, what we've seen is this huge relocation from
across the globe are sort of the best funds. But
forget the capital for a second. It's the people who
know how to deploy capital. They know how to pick
the winners or pick the companies that are going to
change the world. And so that talent has really moved

(24:14):
into the region and it's also developing locally, which is
really kind of powerful. And then obviously with that you
have to have an advantageous tax environment. That's some of
the big reform. I think that's frankly probably the biggest
reform that we did in the Australian context is we said, look,
if you invest into this area, it is more risky, right,
but its very nature tech and innovation is a more

(24:35):
risky kind of investment. But when you do well, you
do well by a very large margin. So you have
to make a number of investments. Not all of them work,
but when you win, you really have a big return.
And we created a tax environment which is very similar
to here, which says we're not going to penalize you
for that, We're actually going to incentivize it. And what
we saw in the Australian context, and I think what

(24:57):
we are seeing here is a kind of a building
of critical mass. So the first thing that happened, and
this is absolutely what is happening here, is the family officers.
So you know, private wealthy people, they saw a tax
through you know, maybe they made money in infrastructure or
real estate or mining, more conservative industries. They saw a

(25:17):
reason to deploy a bit of their capital into this space.
Maybe not all of it, but you know, a percentage.
And then as they had success and as companies started
to exit, then you saw more institutional capital flow into
that as well. And now in the Australian context, the
super funds are backing many of the large VC funds.
I think here you're seeing the same thing. So you're
seeing the early investors of the family officers. Then you're

(25:40):
seeing predominantly government funds, which are sort of fund to
fund type models, which is really good because that's driving
in that private capital and then more institutional money, whether
that's at the sovereign wealth level or sort of pension
funds across the globe. And so that's building critical mass
here and that then gets a total life of its own.
And as you have the sort of the success and

(26:01):
the exits, then it becomes self fulfilling because you know,
when you have the exits, either the investors are creating
new funds or the founders are creating their own funds
or new companies. And then you know, the first you know,
ten employees of a company that's had a bi exit,
they either create a fund or a new company. And
so I think people, you know, in the Australian context,
how we went from two hundred million to over thirty billion,

(26:22):
It wasn't linear, you know, built up with that those
big whas in those moments when you had success, and
that's happening in the region just to give you a
sense of this, I think this is like an incredible
stat So in the last twelve months, the country that
has lost the highest number of millionaires is the United
Kingdom in raw numbers, So the UK has lost something

(26:45):
like sixteen and a half thousand millionaires in the last
twelve months. To put that into context, China, which is
one point four billion, I think lost about eleven or
twelve thousand millionaires. And of the sixteen and a half
thousand millionaires from the UK, seventy percent of them have
relocated to the Middle East. So what that means is
you're actually seeing a transfer of talent capital, you know,

(27:07):
employment opportunities, and locally that's developing as well, and that
is just such a key ingredient in this Now there
are other ingredients, and you know we can unpick them,
but I think on the capital front, you know, it's
frankically pretty hard to raise capital around the world. You know,
the VC environment in Saudi you know, basically in a
six month period basically doubled. So you know, there is

(27:31):
real access to capital here. Now it's smart money. They're
making right investments, and people shouldn't treat the country as
a as an ATM. But there are real investible opportunities here,
you know, backing incredible founders and entrepreneurs and incredible commercialization
of technology. And when you combine that with what we're
seeing in the region, you know, it's changing the face

(27:52):
of of not just this region but the planet.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
So when you say that, and you made a really
important point. Money is one thing. You've got to get
somebody who knows how to deploy the money into the
right investments. Otherwise you get a dud fund and those people,
the people who are investing in the fund, stop investing
in the fund, so that stops the flower capital.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
So is are these.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Individuals who are coming into Saudi to invest money into
perhaps the region you're in now and or Saudi yourself
in particular. Are those homegrown people? Are those homegrown investors
or are they people?

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Who they are? They Saudi?

Speaker 3 (28:28):
Young Saudi people who have gone to America become engineers
and got experience that, you know, one of the big
funds over there and come back to Saudi.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Who are they? Where they coming from?

Speaker 4 (28:37):
So it's both and I think both is really really important.
So you and it's kind of the Singaporean model. You know,
if you think about if you go back with Singapore.
One of the key things that they did was, look,
we'll attract the best and brightest from anywhere in the
world and we'll develop our own, our own populace over time.
And so one, yes, you're absolutely seeing is influx of entrepreneurs,

(28:58):
of investors, of research and scientists into the region. But
you're also seeing this homegrown ecosystem development.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Just give you a sense.

Speaker 4 (29:07):
One of my good mates, he has a company called Uniphonic,
which is effectively a communications platform for large corporations. Born
in the Eastern the founder was born in the Eastern
province in Saudi never actually kind of left. This tech
company has exploded. He's just raised over one hundred million
dollars from SoftBank. Now soft Bank are not idiots that

(29:29):
they are backing a hundred million dollar homegrown Saudi, incredible
high growth company. You go to his offices here in
Reart and you could be walking into any office that
you're walking into San Francisco.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
So you're seeing the mix.

Speaker 4 (29:43):
But I think what's also a real strength here is
the kingdom had this remarkable reform where they offered extremely
generous scholarships for young Saudis to study around the world.
So it actually reminds me a bit of the New
Colombo Plan in Australia where we did this with Asia,
but they do it globally, so you know, very young
population and a lot of them have studied in Australia,

(30:08):
in the US, in Europe, and as the country has changed,
they're coming back in droves. So this was the Australian
story that I was telling you, like, this is the
moment to kind of get this right because of the
change that we're seeing. And I think young Saudis are
just rightfully very patriotic. I mean, this is an amazing
country and they're proud to say that they're from Saudi.
They're coming home and starting these these industries, and I

(30:32):
think that's that's really special when you combine it with
the talent across the world. And I think it's kind
of similar to what we saw in Singapore over a
longer period.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
But for all of that.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
To be happening in such a short period, it is transformational.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
But do you think the Crown Prince has since the
Crown Prince has sort of been running the show, is
that a sort of a bit of a transition. It's
in itself like a change in attitude, and that is
the very thing that young Sioudy has become very proud
to be.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Call themselveless out he I mean, is there something going
on there?

Speaker 4 (31:05):
Yeah, I mean he is one of the most remarkable
leaders of our time. Look, I'm biased. I went into
politics at a young age. You know, he and I
were young ministers at the same time together. But he,
I mean, he's obviously this remarkable leader of the country.
I think if you think about global leadership, what really
kind of lets us down is the lack of long

(31:27):
term vision. You know, in the Australian context, you know,
elections every three years, it's.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Often it's shorter than that.

Speaker 4 (31:33):
You know, I think we debate very small things sometimes
in the country that is frustrating. The Crown Prince is forty,
so the idea of him, you know, leading the country
for decades to come is a huge asset because you
are actually thinking about how do I have a long
term vision, how do I make the decisions that will

(31:54):
enable the change that needs to happen in the country,
and you just get on with execution. So the whole
mind that goes to how do you execute? And so
I think, you know, young Saudi's are rightfully, very proud
of the leadership that they have. They see a lot
of themselves in that and it's just not very often
in history that you get that opportunity, and that is

(32:15):
what has happened. And I think the change that we've
seen in the country is completely down to him. And
I think, you know, sometimes in history you get lucky,
you know, you find the right leader in the right time,
and that creates these transformational moments.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
And that's what we have here in the Kingdom.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
And I know for the next you know, twenty thirty
forty years, this place will just keep delivering and keep
heading towards that. Now, change is hard, you know, ambition
and reality have to come together, and that's the kind
of that's the exciting moment, right when you get ambition
and reality to come together. But you know, as a result,
we're building this really vibrant society here that's opening to

(32:52):
the world. We're building this thriving economy that's creating tons
of prosperity, and we're doing it on the back of
being really ambitious about what this country can be and
how it can contribute to the world.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
And that comes from the top.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
It's interesting to hear someone like you talk about leadership
because you know you've sat directly underneath let's call it
great leaders or leaders of our nation in particular, and
inspirational leaders, leaders with great vision. You're and you're now
with the Crown Prince. You just mentioned you've met Trump
et cetera. And I got asked this question today and

(33:26):
actually I've got this asked this question by Stewart Airs
at a New South Wales government sort of event. Stewart says,
the salo by the way, because I told you, and
let's go through the podcast. That's good, yeah, yeah, correct.
But he asked me a question about courage and leadership
and to some extent, our Australian leaders today, whether it's

(33:48):
a state or federal being accused of lacking courage. But
leadership's a lot leaderships or courage within leadership sometimes sometimes
is constrained because of what's going on in the place.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
And my response to him is, well, you know, the
Labor Party is broad Church federally.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
I'm talking about now broad church of people that have
to satisfy sometimes means I don't make a decision because
I don't want to dissatisfy everybody who's voted me in.
And if you're the leader of those people who voted
you in, your role is to make sure that they're
not unhappy as opposed to being happy. And that becomes
a constraint in terms of courage. And some people might
interpret that as lacking courage, but I don't think that means.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
That they lack courage.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
It's easier to be courageous when you're only forty, for example,
and you've got you may you know, you consider above
the decisions, so to speak, and the decisions and you're
not getting voted in every three years. What do you
think about that? Because you're obviously reflecting on Australia all
the time, you're still very interested in what goes on
in this country. What do you think about that concept

(34:52):
of today courage and leadership in Australia on our shores?

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yeah, look, I am.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
You know.

Speaker 4 (35:00):
When I think about it, I always think we should
talk about how good politics can be. Like, I don't
understand why why would you want to be in politics
if you're not there to do something big and not
there to change the country.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
I don't understand it.

Speaker 4 (35:11):
I literally don't understand it and there are a lot
of really good people in politics who are very talented,
who want to make a big difference. But there's also
a lot of people who I just sit there and
I share your kind of frustration where I think, you know,
we are so lucky. I mean, you know, a former
leader of my party said, you sort of win the
lottery of life if you're in Australian and you know,

(35:32):
we are so lucky to be in this incredible nation,
but we have no sense of what our nation can
be on the world stage and how we can you know,
contribute to the world and frankly, how our country can
be more prosperous. And the truth is the world is
changing at an incredibly fast rate, Like I mean, the
thing that defines our time is changed, right, whether that's
globalization or technology or whatever it might be. We're seeing

(35:54):
as huge disruption in the world. And courageous leadership says
there is opportunity and change. You know, there is real
opportunity if we seize that and we try and you know,
make that change our friend and drive that transition.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
I think week leadership is.

Speaker 4 (36:08):
When you try and hide under the doners and inoculate
yourself from that, and you also, I think sell a
fantasy to people. And I think it doesn't respect the
intelligence of the Australian people to say, actually, it's all okay,
we're just going to sort of, you know, hide from
this and we're going to do you know, we're going
to be boring managers. Is the best way of kind
of putting it. Do little menial changes. I mean you
and I both know. I mean, Australia is an incredible nation,

(36:31):
but it needs big reform. I mean, we have a
huge productivity problem. We do need to diversify our economy more.
There is a lot that we can do to create
greater prosperity, to seize those exciting opportunities and frankly, just
set us up to succeed in a changing world. And
I don't see, as you would say, the courage anywhere

(36:52):
in the political spectrum at the moment of people saying
these are the big changes that we want to do.
And now the reason is, I think because the nature
of politics has changed. So you know, it's very easy
for people to complain and have very loud voices, and
I think weak politicians weaponize that right, so you know,
they're very instinctively running to how do we attack an

(37:13):
idea and tear it down? And if you make change,
there's always going to be winners and losers, right, that's
just the nature of change. And you could have the
smallest percentage of people who lose a small amount from
a really important reform, but in the modern political environment
you can give them a huge microphone to attack that,
and so politicians very naturally get afraid. The easiest thing

(37:34):
to do in the Australian context, to be popular is
do nothing, like all the incentives that are actually to do nothing.
That's the sort of leadership that we think that we want. Now,
I would argue, and maybe it's naive optimism, and maybe
I'm wrong, but I passionately believe that if we had
courageous leadership that was honest with the Australian people and said, look,
these are the challenges we face us a nation. Here's

(37:56):
all the different options of what we can do, and
let's debate them. Let's have a content test of ideas.
Let's see where we can find as much consensus as
possible and just do that and where there's you know,
a real point of contest, Well, this is the vision
for the country, and we're going to put it to
the Australian people, I think, and then you actually change
the country for the better. I think if you did
that in an election, you'd probably still win fifty one

(38:17):
percent of the vote. Now you would see all these
big scare campaigns, you would see people attacking it, but
you would change the country for the better, and you
can set up the country for you know, the next generation,
for the next thirty forty fifty years. But for whatever reason,
I don't see that, and I think it's just because
the incentives in the system are always about much easier
to do nothing and play at the margins.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
And sometimes it's worse.

Speaker 4 (38:40):
It's not even to do nothing, it's to tell people
a lie, which is to say, actually it's all fine
and we've got you know, there's nothing to do. I mean,
that's just just look at productivity, look at living standards,
look at you know, the number of these factors across
the economy. Australia is a great country, but we can
always be better and you do need that courageous leadership,
I think to set the country up for long term success,

(39:01):
and our current crop of leaders I don't see anyone
really engaging in that debate, and it saddens me because
I think, you know, if you and I went out
and spoke to the business community, you and I both
know what the ten things are that the country needs
to do, and we could debate it, you know, plus
and minus a little bit. But who's talking about tax

(39:21):
reform in Australia. Who's talking about federation reform, who's talking
about industrial relations reform. These are all the things that
we need to do to set up the country, and
if we don't, we're just going to have lower living standards,
We're going to have less prosperity. We've got an aging
of the population in the country, so you know, in
Saudi Arabia there's this huge benefit of having a young population.
You know in one intergenerational report. In these train context,

(39:45):
we're going from a place of about five Australians working
for every person who wasn't by twenty fifty, that's going
to be about two and a half twenty fifty. How
do we pay for our social services system? How do
we You have to grow the economy, you have to
have a more productive economy. And I think the lack
of courage that you spoke about all that results in

(40:05):
is sure governments might get re elected by not doing
very much. But I'll tell you what, how kids are
going to grow up in a country with less prosperity.
And I think ultimately someone has to say this is
what we need to do as a country.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
But I think it.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
Goes back to that point you're making earlier on where
the advantages are someone like Saudi has and by the way,
places like Singapore have too.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
They don't think in short termism. We think in short termism, and.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
At the end of the day, whether we like not,
the politicians make the decisions as to how we approach
our economy, how we approach our life, how we approach
out by the way our stand living or improving ours
stand living. Australia when it comes to resources, like Saudi,
but Australia when it comes to resource We've got every
resource you want to know about. There's everything, there's the
whole Our standard of living, in other words, wealth per

(40:51):
capita should be one of the best in the world.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
When I look at Qatar, I don't understand why.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
I mean, it's as much small a country, But when
I look at guitar relative to the gas that they
produce in Australia is like number two in the world
when it comes to gas resources. Why are we in
that same sort of category. I just don't get it.
And you're in the region, So what do you think
it is that your region does that Australians?

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Is it us? Is it the voting and we too apathetic?
Is that us?

Speaker 3 (41:21):
You know?

Speaker 4 (41:21):
Like I think there is a bit of apathy, of course.
I mean we have huge strengths. I mean, compoxily voting
for examples, is I think one of the best systems
in the world and I completely have changed my mind
to that. So there are institutional strengths in the country.
And I don't want to talk the country down too much,
but I think we are missing our moment, you know.
I think this part of the world has a really
clear sense of history. They're very naturally proud of who

(41:43):
they are, but what they can be. They know that
change has to happen. They embrace change, right, This is
what I was talking about. And I think maybe it
is also because of just young populations. I think, you know,
younger people are inherently more you know, realistic and aware
of the need for change and reform. And just because
the world we grew up in has been defined by change, right,
So it's a different generational element to that. And I

(42:03):
think they are seizing their moment. And they're also just
not afraid to try big things and fail along the way.
You know, the Australian appetite for failure is so low.
You know, we might rather do nothing and not do something,
then try and do something and fail along the way. Now,
you know, it doesn't matter whether you're in business or
in government. The truth is not everything's going to work.
And it's a pretty hard thing for a politician in

(42:26):
the Australian context to say, look, we're going to try
and do these ten big things. If they don't work,
we'll stop doing it. If there's a better idea somewhere
in the world, will steal it. If we can improve something,
will improve it. Now you get kind of crucified in
Australia if you say that, But that's actually the kind
of leadership that you need. And I think that's the
leadership that we have here where they're not afraid of,
you know, understanding the moment, making the big bet, trying

(42:47):
to make a change, and then if something needs to
be moved around, then they absolutely do that and I
think that, you know, overwhelmingly, you know, there's huge support
for that kind of leadership because it is changing changing
the face of this region. In the Australian context, we're
just much more comfortable to sort of not have a go.
I mean we love to say Australians love to have
a go. Well, our political leaders do not like to
have a go. And I think that you know that

(43:11):
it wasn't always the case. You know, if you think
about in Australia in itself was a massive project, right,
it's sort of how do we how to create a
nation out of sending convicts to the other side of
the world. And that's a remarkable moment. Think about the
Sydney Harbor Bridge, you know, designed in the earliest parts,
you know by Bradfield in the earliest part of the
twentieth century. It's eight lanes. Back then, you know, it

(43:34):
had the train on it. I mean, cars weren't really
a thing. There was nothing kind of on the north
side of Sydney. People said, that's what we have to do,
you know, the Snowy hydro scheme. I mean the Australians said,
we're going to do the Snowy Hydro scheme. People said
it was impossible. Imagine if you tried to announce doing
a new version of Snowy Hydro like today, you'd get
people would say, no, it's all too hard, it's impossible.
What did that project do well? It completely transformed our nation.

(43:57):
It brought people from all over the world to be
part of it, which changed our society for the better.
And you know, we have had that visionary leadership. That's
the sort of visionary leadership I think we see here.
There's no reason why we can't go back to that.
There's no reason why a leader couldn't go out there
and say that. Today now weaker politicians would attack that

(44:17):
kind of leadership and create fear campaigns. But I do
think if you had that, there's a really good chance
that you'd still win. You might not win eighty percent
of the vote, but you only need fifty one percent
to win, and then you can change the country. And
I think, yeah, it just saddens me that that's not
what we see today, but I'm optimistic that that might
change one day.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
So when you say that these decisions, policies, and visions
are well supported, obviously you're talking about the people within
the country.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
And I agree with you.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
Younger people tend to support change much more than older
people because older people get become comfortable, they don't want change,
They just get used to doing, to doing stuff, and
they trust and then become familiar with always done. Younger
people are sort of up for whatever's going to happen.
But what about the media. Do they have a media
in Saudi Arabia and how does that work? What does

(45:10):
it like to have a media in a place like
it is?

Speaker 4 (45:12):
Actually, yeah, there's actually quite a vibrant media across the country.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Now, across the world, we're seeing.

Speaker 4 (45:19):
Huge disruption to the media industry, and you're in it,
you understand it better than most. But I think, you know,
if you roll back twenty years ago, the way that
people would consume information is, you know, effectively a media
outlet that is owned by a very small number of people,
whether that's a newspaper or radio or TV station. What
we've seen is this now, you know, Saudi has, you know,

(45:40):
a vibrant kind of media environment. There's national newspapers led
by really impressive editors. NBC is the biggest sort of
media conglomerate. To put it the best way in the region.
Which is headed by Mike Steesby, who used to be
the CEO of nine, another great Australian in the region.
But I think the really interesting thing about media here
is is with such a young population, it is just

(46:03):
huge consumption of media through different formats in social media,
and as a fellow podcaster, I think, you know, there
are a lot of really great young Saudis who are
having these great podcasts which are really vibrant. You know,
there's a real kind of debate and contest of ideas
and sort of really honest conversations about what's happening in

(46:26):
the region and in the country, and so it's actually
a really interesting media environment. I particularly i'd give a
shout out to the Young Young Saudi podcast as people
like the most show.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
I'd encourage people to go and go and have a
look at this. You know, they are the.

Speaker 4 (46:41):
Voice of the country. You know, it's these young Saudis
who are the voice of the country and seeing that
change and they're really having their voices heard in a
pretty vibrant way, which I don't think is what people
would necessarily expect.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
From this part of the world. But I'm so proud
of the you know.

Speaker 4 (46:55):
The young Saudis who are having those conversations, and the
consumption of that is rapid here, so you know, I
very quickly find out what's happening in the world because
you know, my young Saudi mates will say to me,
did you see this on Twitter or Snapchat or Instagram,
And it's just it's lightning. But if seventy percent of
the population is under thirty five, I think I think
almost about sixty five sixty eight percent of the population

(47:18):
are in their twenties.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
So wow, like it gives you a real sense of that.

Speaker 4 (47:22):
And the truth is a difference between a twenty year
old Saudi and a thirty year old Saudi is really
profound because one has sort of basically grown up after
the reforms and one before. And so there's this huge
influx of you know, a very kind of vibrant society
of young Saudis who are super connected to the world,
proud of their country and being part of a change.
And so I think that's a yeah, I'd encourage people

(47:43):
to come and experience it for themselves.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Well, I will be as you know, I'm going to
come over there.

Speaker 3 (47:48):
But can I just just on that the virorent young
people and you know, the media being social media, especially
because the perception back here in Australia and perhaps other
places of the world is that oh, you can't against
the crown prince. You know you might get in terms
of you know, publications you might get. There might be
some suppression. Obviously that's not the case from what you're saying.

(48:09):
It's actually like everybody gets up then, as you said,
contest of ideas. I actually feel in Australia from what
you're saying, we have more suppression on a contest in
terms of contest of ideas and you do currently where
you're living in Saudi Arabia, correct, Yeah, And.

Speaker 4 (48:26):
I think like you know what you see. I think
you see two things in the West. Look, in Australia
is better than a lot of the West. But I
think you see this kind of like sanctimonious lecturing of
people when you have this contest of ideas, Like we
love other people too who supposedly are.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Saying that they're righteous.

Speaker 4 (48:43):
You know, they're in the right kind of way to
tell other people how they need to live their own
lives and to tell other people how, you know, what
we shouldn't do, like to tell people what they shouldn't
do seems to be like an Australian disease.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Sometimes I think.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
We're here, is it? As I said, it's like, how
do we change the country in the region for the better?
You know, what's your idea, what's my idea, Let's debate it,
let's let's look at the pros and cons and then
lay it. On top of that is just a natural
sense of patriotism, which I think is really good, strong
thing about this region. You know, they should be rightfully
proud that these are great countries with amazing people, and

(49:16):
so that dynamic is kind of very different, you know,
and on some of the nuances around the media thing.
Again from that kind of sanctimonious thing, I think people
who just don't understand the country often you know, say
frankly pretty cruel and uninformed things. Now, over time, as
people understand more of the you know, the transformation that's happening,
and the story of the country and the incredible history
and culture. You know. The beautiful thing about Saudi's particularly

(49:39):
but the region is they are the most welcoming people
on the planet.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
I mean it is.

Speaker 4 (49:43):
I cannot tell you how warm and friendly and helpful
my Saudi friends are. But as that story gets out,
I think that that narrative will kind of change. But
you know, anybody who who does that, I think they
just have to come here and see it. I'll give
you one example, mark because it was one that really
I think highlighted this.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
The other day.

Speaker 4 (50:02):
So, you know, maybe a month or so ago, we
had the Comedy Festival. So you know, I'm a huge
fan of stand up comedy. I went and saw Jimmy
Carr and Luisy Kay and some great young Saudi comedians.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
So Jimmy, Jimmy Carr was alowd to do it. Jimmy
Carr is good there.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
He was great.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
I mean he was I was blushing with what he
was saying.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
Wow, I think you know.

Speaker 4 (50:23):
So, you know, in the Comedy Festival, we had Jimmy
Carr and Luisy Kay and Dave Chappelle and you know,
all all the kind of stand ups.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
And both can I just still be there for wit
for sec But these are guys, by the way, who
don't mind sort of you know that they they will
get a little bit edgy, yeah, of.

Speaker 4 (50:38):
Course, yeah, And there's no constraints on what they they
were they were, you know, they're all great comedians. They
were really great. Uh you know, there's a great comedy
club in Read and you really upset me because there
was these you know, I hate using the word but
either there were sort of these woke lefty journalists in

(51:00):
the US and other places who are criticizing these comedians
for coming.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Now what are they criticizing.

Speaker 4 (51:06):
Well, you know, if you think about it, as I said,
the average page of a Saudi is twenty six. You know,
really average Saudi is like a twenty six year old
female who's probably in renewable energy or technology. Right, what
do they win by denying that person going and listening
to a stand up comedian.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
And making their own decision?

Speaker 4 (51:26):
Yeah, exactly, Like, like, how are they benefiting the world
by saying that, you know, people in this region shouldn't
be allowed to go to stand up comedy but you
know other people and you know, but they're okay to go,
you know, go down the street. And this is I
just totally don't get that. And I think, you know,
the strength of this country is this incredible bulk of
this young population who changing the world for the better.

(51:48):
They want to be part of a important global community,
and so I think that you know, these people who
sort of criticize some of this stuff that will actually
kind of die over time as they realize the reality
on the ground. But you know, I just would sort
of encourage people before they bring misconceived ideas and different
perceptions to the sort of lecture this part of the world, like,

(52:10):
go and experience it, go and live in it, Go
and see these great saudis. And I can't wait to
go to next year's Comedy Festival because.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
It's really good. You know, it's a great thing.

Speaker 3 (52:20):
I think part of the problem is in Australia at least,
and I love my country as you do too, but
you know, there's too many people around like me.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
So there's too many older people.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
Who've made some money or are comfortable, and where it's
my generation who tend to be the ones who want
to lecture the younger generational, particularly people from your age
and down, as to what they shouldn't do and what
they should do, when in fact, what we should be
doing what I.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Like to do.

Speaker 3 (52:44):
You know, I'm not giving myself right here, but some
people are not like to be this, Like fokes like
James Packard like to do it, et cetera. We like
to embrace what your generation is doing. In fact, we
like to invest in what your generation is doing, because
we know that you've got more innerjura than us, and
you're smarter than us, and you have acts the more
smarter people like yourselves. And that's what Australia I don't

(53:05):
think is what we're not doing enough of it's my generation.

Speaker 4 (53:09):
Yeah, well, Mark, like I think, you know, there is
huge benefit from the wisdom of age, you know, like
like older strands, older people across the world, you know,
they have incredible lived experiences, They've worked hard. You know,
we are at our best when we stand on the
shoulders of giants. And what I kind of see is,
you know, young people are desperate for those kind of opportunities.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
They want to run at it.

Speaker 4 (53:31):
And the best leaders in life, it doesn't matter whether
it's in business or politics or whatever, are people like
yourself who say, how do we give them a go?
How do I help them? How do I impart the
knowledge and wisdom that I've built up over a lifetime
of hard work and then let them have a crack
and support them. And I've been really lucky. I've had
a lot of people like that in my life. That,
you know, I've learned so much from and done it.

(53:52):
But you're right, I don't like the mentality sometimes of
this sort of wingy like, you know, having a go
at young people who are just you know, out they're
trying to make a difference in the world and build
a life for themselves. So yeah, it does sadden me
when we don't see that enough. But I also see
the best of it where you know, in my life,
I've been really lucky. I've got these incredible friends and

(54:12):
mentors who you know, have done remarkable things over a
long time, and they've been great, not just great mates,
but great mentors in life. And you know, we need
more people like you who do that for the next
generation because that's ultimately better for everybody.

Speaker 3 (54:27):
Very nicely said, thank you, mate, But can I just
ask you this question, And I think this is an
important question, but certainly one that's racing around my brain.
It's good to be for these people to be idealistic
young people. It's good to have that population demographic. It's
good to have a leader of the country, you know,
who's young and a visionary and has the ability to

(54:49):
make things happen.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
But where in terms of execution.

Speaker 3 (54:54):
What is the level of intelligence and intellect that sits
within the co of people you're talking about, Like where
are they getting their skills from it? They are they
great universities or great education institutions right now?

Speaker 1 (55:07):
In Saudi?

Speaker 4 (55:08):
Yes, yeah, I mean there's an incredible I think institutional
strength in the country from from a number of different things.
So one I would say, you know, there's a there's
a corporate institutional strength in things like a Ramco.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
You know, Ramco is the less profitable company on the planet.

Speaker 4 (55:23):
So you know, you've had this great story for the
country that has obviously done a lot around resource extraction,
but what it's also done is train a generation or
many generations of great corporate leaders with really big, significant
global corporate experience. So you know, you see a bit
of that. On science and technology and research. The Kingdom
has amazing universities. So for example COUST KA U s

(55:49):
T which is on the Red Sea and Jedda. It's
a it's a higher education institution. On citations per capita,
ranks around one of the best in the world. It
has a endowment that is bigger than Harvard and its
current president is a mate called ed Byrne who was

(56:11):
the vice chancellor of Monash and the president of King's
College in London.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
So you might just just pick a few of those
things though, because like not a lot of people would
really know what you're talking about. When you say citations,
you mean off the back of publications that have come
out of this university where somebody has done some research
on a topic tech, engineering, health science, whatever, medicine, and
that gets published, peer reviewed, then published. What you were

(56:36):
saying is those publications coming out of the research in
those institutions in Saudi Arabia are being cited across the world,
perhaps by others using that publication as authority for a
really important proposition.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
Is that what you mean by citations exactly.

Speaker 4 (56:52):
I mean a more simple way of saying, this is
the research that's happening in these institutions in the Kingdom
and particularly a Chaos which was on a per capita basis,
is developing technology of some sort that has the ability
to change the world and solve the big challenges facing
our time. So whether that's in energy, or in healthcare,
or in you know, wherever it might be, mobility that's

(57:14):
coming from a homegrown institution that is incredible. You know,
another just to give you another sense of this, taxed
KACST is effectively the Kingdom's version of CSIRO, but much
larger in many ways, and thousands of research scientists working
on super interesting challenges, everything from disease control through to

(57:37):
satellite technology. You know, they've just done an amazing partnership
with Lucid, you know, the electric vehicle car company, which
I mean anybody who's driven a Lucid I means it's
a really amazing car. They're developing here apt CAXT, the
battery technology for it, the resilience to harsh environments, solving

(57:59):
logistical challenge and so that's with thousands of homegrown research
scientists coming out of these great institutions.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
I mentioned a ram COO.

Speaker 4 (58:08):
You know, there was a whole generation of scientists and
engineers that were also trained at the universities around a
RAMCO that helped create that change. So you've got this
institutional strength in the country. Now, there's always change that
needs to happen and things moving, but it is a
strong foundation. The other layer is what we spoke about before,

(58:29):
which was a recognition early on, let's send our people
across the globe, make that as easy as possible, let
them get the skill sets, and then when they come home,
the country benefits. And you know, Saudi has done more
on that front than any country I can think of.
So you've got those two things playing out, and I
think when you combine that with you the young population,
the young leader, that's an institutional strength in the country

(58:51):
that's pretty pretty special.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
You, in your Australian roles, were very.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
Ind in when I talked about innovationation or Malcolm Terminal's innovationation,
very involved in a lot of people. My criticism of
that phrase was most people couldn't even spell an innovation.
They didn't really know what you mean by innovationnation. And like,
I's just Malcolm being a high intellect, extremely bright guy. Always,

(59:20):
in my vieways made the assumption that everybody knew what
he was talking about when probably one percent of the
population had his capacity therefore did not know what he
was talking about. And I thought that innovation Nation was
probably a little bit too hoyploy. But if I could
reduce it back down to science, technology, engineering and maths,
those four topics, those which are four things we've sort

(59:42):
of ignored a little bitre in Australia, not necessarily during
your period, but traditionally because we have relied on mining
and have relied on construction to a large extent, but science, technology,
energy and engineering, I should say maths, particularly with women
getting women a greater percentage of women involved.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
That in Australia we're doing something to do much better
in that regard.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
How is STEM being addressed as a as a resource
for Saudi Arabian as a sort of maybe as part
of the vision STEM itself.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Yeah, yeah, No, I.

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
Agree with your assessment of the failure of our ability
to tell the story. I think you know, with hindsight,
I think you know there's a real opportunity to tell
the story because I mean, ultimately, what it's about, right,
what sort of country do you want your kids to
grow up in? You know? I think that that I'll
come back to your question. I give you a great
story on this. I always said to people the moment
that we would succeed on that storytelling is when the

(01:00:36):
guy that drives the truck from Bunderberg to Sydney realizes
that if we get this right, his kids grow up
with more kind of opportunity in the country. And we
set up the Tech Council of Australia after I was
in politics, which is a great kind of industry body
to help support the industry. Was chaired by Robert Denholm,
who's the global chair of Tesla, who's a great friend,
and the founders are the biggest tech companies. And when

(01:00:58):
we did it, I don't think I've ever told this
story public, but we we did some polling and some
research to sort of say, well, what were there sentiments
towards the tech industry in the country.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
And we did this focus group.

Speaker 4 (01:01:10):
It was sort of you know, coming out of COVID,
so a lot of it was online. And there was
literally this truck driver who was driving from Bunderberg to Sydney.
This is the sort of thing I would use in
my stump speech. And he's in you know, he's in
the hotel room, I think in Kuna Bara Bran or something,
and he's it was fantastic. He's got the cigarette, he's
sitting there, he's smoking and he says, look, I know

(01:01:30):
that this new industry might be a challenge, right, like
I might not drive the truck one day.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
I understood the threat.

Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
And that was the heart of the politics, was like
is this a threat or an opportunity. But he said,
if Mike and he had this great line, He's like,
my son spends too much time on video games and
I want him to get off. But if he can
be involved in creating the thing that means the truck
doesn't need me to drive it anymore, then I'm proud
of him, and I'm proud of the country, and like,
we never really got that narrative right, but I think

(01:01:58):
that that is actually the truth of what all of
this means. To your point, I would add one more. Yes,
STAM is super important, but I also think entrepreneurs skill sets.
So I think without the entrepreneurs and the STEM coming together,
this doesn't quite play out, because you can you know,
when I became the minister in Australia, we ranked the
top three in the OECD for research and the bottom

(01:02:20):
three for commercialization. So if you're not you have to
do the great research, but if you're not commercializing it
into business products services that change the world and create
economic activity, you kind of fail. So I would add
that to it. I think in Saudi this is just
a natural strength.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
So you've seen.

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
You've seen historically a lot of focus on STEM partly
because of the Aramco story. So you know, the greatest
institutions initially started in engineering and you know, those kind
of skill sets around a RAM code. Then you saw
the influx out into the world and so that was
just a very natural thing that a lot of Saudi's
would study. And then now it's just taken on a

(01:02:59):
life of its own. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
At NEOM, I was very lucky.

Speaker 4 (01:03:02):
I had a number of female Saudi PhD. In renewable
energy in different types of technology trained at cowst Roller
institutions working for me. That is that is really really,
really powerful, and that's kind of picking up you know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
One of the great things we.

Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
Did at NEOM was we also had our own scholarship
program to help Saudis from the region, which is a
pretty regional area right It's in the northwest, but there's
not much not much there yet, so we're talking really
small kind of communities, and we would we would say
to the the high school students or the university students, look,
if you want to work in this kind of field,

(01:03:41):
we'll give you a scholarship to go to the US
or the UK to study in that field. And one
of the best things I did we went to the
US and we met all of these students that we'd
given the scholarship to a few hundred students, and I
met five or six local girls from to Book, which
is a regional kind of province in Saudi Arabia who

(01:04:03):
were all studying computer science. Now in Australia, if I
could find seven girls, you know, eighteen nineteen twenty studying
computer science, I would be, you know, amazed.

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
It's like a great thing.

Speaker 4 (01:04:15):
It wasn't even something that they contemplated that was unusual
or that that was a new kind of thing. It
just was assumed that that's what they would be doing.
And I think this is one of these kind of
moments where you know, the Kingdom is in some cases
I find more progressive on this stuff because again I think,
you know, I don't want to labor the age point
too much. But if you've got a young population, you're
just naturally more tech savvy and you know, more inclined

(01:04:35):
to have tech adoption. So it's you're more likely than
to have a bigger group of people or you know
around you friends, mentor supporters who would just naturally say okay,
well I will study renewable energy or computer science or
engineering or mathematics. In any of these kind of fields
AI huge thing in the region and so you just
see a lot more of that here than I think

(01:04:56):
people realize, and frankly, probably more than you see in Australia.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
So the burning question for me, mate is I've known
you for a while now, and especially when you're a
much younger guy and he's still single.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
I I am going through a relationship that is sadly ending.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
Sorry to hear that, but that's okay, Mark.

Speaker 4 (01:05:21):
I'm glad we're talking about it on the podcast today.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Let's no worries, Mate, because everybody wondering, well, I.

Speaker 4 (01:05:27):
You know, one of the sad things that I think is,
you know, it's a very sad thing to go through.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
It. It's not something you want to you know, no
one wants to experience.

Speaker 4 (01:05:34):
But I mean, the divorce rate is extremely high in
Australia and everywhere, and that's a sad, sad thing in life,
and you know, I wish them well. But I'll come
get some father your advice from you on the dating
front once I'm ready to get Mate.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
I'm the worst person to ask are you serious? Three times?

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
So you know, The reason why I asked is because
for people who might be listening to this, for those
people thinking that we, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, I've
got a new technology idea, or I've got something up
and running, maybe I could go to a Saudi and
experience you know, maybe you know, working out there trying
to raise some money or et cetera, building a lab,
whatever the deal is because a lot of these people,

(01:06:16):
A lot of people go to San Francisco, but no
one really I don't think many considering going to Saudi.
But they'd also like to know what it's like to
live there, like as a as a single person, perhaps
because like I know, they get a sense of San
Francisco very similar to Australia, very similar Sydney. But what
is it like to be single and or just socialization

(01:06:38):
within a place like that.

Speaker 4 (01:06:39):
It's like it's fun, is the best way of putting it.
I think. You know, Saudi's, as I said, are incredibly warm,
incredibly welcoming. It's one of these countries where you know,
you can meet someone on the streets or the shops
and then you know, come back to our players come out,
you know, like they're just very very very welcoming people
who really enjoy life, and I think, you know, you
know what it is, there's an appreciation for life here

(01:07:00):
that is totally intoxicating. Like they just love life, love people,
they appreciate what they've got, and I think that that's
a really great kind of place to be. So I
think if you're a young single person, like you're going
to meet so many interesting people here and be exposed
to so many different people from different walks of life,
which is a great thing to do at that stage.

(01:07:22):
I think if you have a young family as well,
it's just a very family friendly environment as well. So
if you know, you get married and have kids, this
is a great place to do that. As an Australian,
you know, you want to go see the world, it's
forty eight hours on a plane somewhere usually, you know,
by the time you get there. Here you're just so
connected to everywhere in the globe as well, So the
opportunity to kind of explore and get out and see

(01:07:42):
different countries is really profound, and also across the region.
I mean, you know, I had one of my best
mates from UNI here a few weeks ago and we
drove you know, Saudi Omah and the UAE and crossing
borders in a car and driving its Australian. It's just
something you don't kind of think about. So you know,
that's really great. And then obviously, you know, your ability

(01:08:04):
to set yourself up in a way here that's just
harder to do in other parts of the world is
really significant. So I think it's a great place. There's
huge diversity in the region, there's super welcoming people, it's
a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Of fun, it's really safe.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
Safe.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
It's like it's incomprehensible how safe this place is. So
you know, I reckon I could walk out with my
wallet full of cash and leave it, you know, on
the main street, and within an hour someone would bring
it back. In terms, I think there's a there's a
real culture around that wow, which is really kind of special.
And I mean, you know, not to talk down the
UK again, but you know, the UK has a real

(01:08:41):
kind of crime crisis. I mean I was I was
in London a little while ago and I had my
phone on the table at a you know, out sitting
outside of a Chinese restaurant in the city, and my
mate was like, what are you doing. That's going to
get stolen and like you basically, I mean every person
I talked to in London at the moment has had
several phones stop. The thought that would happen in this

(01:09:01):
country is ridiculous. I mean, I like, it is so safe,
so welcoming culturally, people look out for each other here,
which I think is really really kind of special. And
you know, this is a great strength of Australia has
as well. It's incredibly safe. I mean, I don't you know,
I probably wouldn't shave too loud, but I don't remember
in Australia ever having keys to my house, Like it's

(01:09:22):
just not you know, I would never you know, anybody
who's listening, please don't go rob my house in Australia.
But I've never liked, you know, I've never I've never
locked my doors. I mean maybe that's growing up on
the farm or whatever, but like, you know, it's a
very safe environment and that's what it's like here. You know,
it's just people look out for each other, people are
it's extremely safe and welcoming environment and so you and

(01:09:43):
people are extremely honest as well, Like there's a real
sense of they want to they want to be good
partners and work with you and look after you, and
they're very happy that you're part of the country. And
I'm really proud to call it, of course out Arabia home.
And it's partly because of just the warmth of they're
people and.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
Their pride in their country, I think is super special.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
Do you have to sit back and sort of scratch your.

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
Head and say, how did the kid son of a
strawberry farmer from Queensland end up being the up.

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
Until today in charge of innovation at Neon, which.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
Is probably one of the biggest, most ambitious projects on
the planet today. Yeah, and right of old age of
thirty five or whatever you are.

Speaker 4 (01:10:32):
Yeah, I think there are moments when you like, of
course this sort of reflected you say, how did that happen?

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
Or whatever?

Speaker 4 (01:10:39):
You're running on adrenaline, like you know, whether it was
in politics or in business or here, which is kind
of a blend of both, to be honest, you know
you know this better than most people. Right, you're running
on adrenaline. You're trying to make sure you're doing the
right thing. You're involved in big decisions, so you know,
you're just very focused on doing a good job. So
you don't have that many quiet moments where you reflect,

(01:11:00):
can you you realize that? But they do happen. And
I mean, I've been incredibly fortunate and lucky to to
you know, to have these different experiences across my life.
But I think, you know, if I think about how
that happened, I mean it's I've never been afraid of
trying to do something different and accepting you might fail,

(01:11:20):
like it's really important.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
This is my thing.

Speaker 4 (01:11:22):
Like all of my friends who have done great things
in life, in politics or in business or whatever it
might be. People talk about their successes, but they've all
had different failures at different times, right, and they've all
learned from I mean, I've had failures in politics and
you know whatever, but you learn from them and you're
not afraid of that that And I think if you
think about what is it that stops people from doing things,

(01:11:46):
it's essentially fear, right, and it's fear of what do
other people think? And am I going to fail? And
I think the thing that I've been lucky is I've
had people in my life that have sort of helped
in steel in me that if you fail, start again,
learn from the lessons. You know, do something to do
the next thing that's really important. And look, of course
you as a human being, you care about what other

(01:12:07):
people think, but it can't stop you from trying to
do something. And you know, I, you know, come back
to this theme of like a contest of ideas. I mean,
some of my best mates, the reason we're mates is
because we disagree on things. You know, we enjoy the
kind of banter and the back and forward that comes
with it. And so I just think, like, the reason

(01:12:27):
I've been lucky to have kind of the experiences that
I have is I've not been afraid to fail, and
I've not necessarily been too afraid of what other people think. Now,
of course I'm listen and I want to learn from it,
but you know, if they disagree with me, that's not
a bad thing. And and then you know, not afraid
to kind of have a go. And I think that
that's probably just why I've been lucky in that sense
to have the experiences.

Speaker 1 (01:12:48):
That I've had.

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
Well, you know, I often say fear is the greatest
thief of imagination that exists.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
It definitely is.

Speaker 3 (01:12:55):
And but one of the things that you've sort of
open up in this conversation is the contest of ideas.
And I think that in places like the UK, perhaps
to a lesser extent here in Australia, places like the
US good examples Charlie Kirk, the lack or the disbelief

(01:13:16):
in the contest of ideas, it's nearly like your calling
for tyranny, if particularly in a philosophical sense, like a
political sense, if you're coming up with an idea that
you want to put out there and open to the contest,
or eternally, if you're contesting someone else's idea, it's nearly
like your herosical heretical like in other words, you're you're

(01:13:39):
committing heresy.

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
How dare you say that it's great to hear, because
I'll be honest with you, I am so.

Speaker 3 (01:13:49):
Refreshingly surprised to hear the contest of ideas is something
that's embraced in the Middle East.

Speaker 1 (01:13:57):
That's the last place I thought I'd ever hear it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:00):
The Middle East is vibrant, and that vibrant culture says
let's have a contest of ideas. And I think you know,
as I said before, I mean Trump. I think you
know you can like or dislike Trump. But I think
he got this line right where he said, you know,
you used to be defined by chaos. Now it's defined
by commerce. And if you bring a contest of ideas
to commerce and changing a society, that is what that

(01:14:21):
is what is a huge strength here, and I think
it's a huge weakness in the in the West when
this doesn't happen. So the you know, as I said before,
your point about the heresies is what I would call
this sanctimonious lecturing. So you know, I think we are
at our best when we have that contest of ideas
and we say, you know, if I disagree with you,
my best response is a better idea, a better argument,

(01:14:44):
a better you know, a better position, and debate that idea.
I think at our worst, what we lose is actually no,
I'm not interested in the contest of ideas. I'm just
I just want to tell you you can't do that,
and I want to tell you can't say that, and
you're a bad person if you have a different idea
to me. And I think we let ourselves down when
we question the motivations of other people. And that's that

(01:15:05):
kind of sanctimonious kind of lecturing. Is we're questioning the motivations,
not what they want to do and my best mates,
I mean politics taught me this. I mean literally, my
best mates are people who I would struggle to name
a thing that we agree on, but I certainly have
never questioned their motivations. You know, we all love our country,
we all love you know, we all want to make
a difference in the world. I don't know why that

(01:15:26):
conversation is so hard to have, but you know, for
whatever reason, it seems to be harder to have every day.
And the beauty of this region is that that disease
hasn't kind of infected this region.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
I mean, the great strength is there.

Speaker 4 (01:15:38):
You know, how do we get new people here to
do new things to create a better world, and how
do we ensure that our people are changing this country
in this region for the better? And that's just something
pretty special be part of who would.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
You encourage to We still have a lot of young
people who are here in Australia who are entrepreneurs, who
have side hustles, who are ambitious to do something new,
people who are studying trying to discover things at Australian
universities are great institution. Its great places to discover things
and to be encouraged to do these sorts of things
that very intelligent people, knowledgeable of those different cohorts, who

(01:16:16):
would be best suited to maybe suit up and say
I'm on my way to react.

Speaker 4 (01:16:21):
I mean, you know, Saudia is incredibly welcoming and you know,
we'll take talent from anywhere in any kind of field.
You know, in the Australian context, there's a ton of
Australians already here. I mean people don't necessarily realize this.
There's over ten thousand Australians in the king Wow and
in really senior positions. So you know, I talked about
Ed who's the president of COW, Mike who's the CEO

(01:16:42):
of NBC, Sarah Hill, who is running a really large
project as part of the PIF here used to develop
Western Sydney or the area around Western Sydney's Bradfield development.
You just keep going through. There are a lot of
really senior Australians here, and there are a lot of
just large numbers, over ten thousand Australians here contributing to

(01:17:04):
the country. And so there's a great kind of culture.
We have a really similar sense of humor. So it's
actually a really interesting kind of strengths so soudis are
I was talking about the Comedy Festival. I mean, they
have to such a great sense of humor. It's funny
and it's dark, and you know, we sort of have
a gold each other.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
You take the mickey out of each other exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:17:21):
I was trying to find the politically correct word.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
Yes, you make the.

Speaker 4 (01:17:24):
Mickey out of each other.

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
Yeah, that's the what I was looking for.

Speaker 4 (01:17:26):
So, yeah, we take the mickey out of each other,
which you know Americans and Europeans.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Don't quite get.

Speaker 4 (01:17:31):
And so this is sort of like, really, it's a
real kind of strength here that we have. And so look,
I mean I would encourage people in any kind of field.
I do think, you know, particularly entrepreneurs, investors, people in technology,
science research. Obviously it's one of the most interesting parts
of the world, but you know, across the board, this
is a great place to be. I'll tell you a

(01:17:53):
little story because it's on my mind. So tomorrow I
have a friend coming to visit in Riad who he
created a company in Australia, a technology company. It at
its peak had about a half a billion dollar valuation,
so it built an amazing kind of company. He went
to San Francisco when the company got going, and this

(01:18:14):
is before I was the minister, and I said to him,
you know, if we're successful in the Australian context, you're
going to come home. And he said, no, no, no, no, no,
you know, the US market's too big and capital.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
And we love what you're doing.

Speaker 4 (01:18:25):
Anyway, maybe five or six or seven years after we
did our reforms, he listed the company on the ASEX.
He ultimately came home and made that prosperity. He then
moved back to sort of splits his time between Europe
and the US, and he's coming here tomorrow because this
is where he wants the future, you know, his future
to be. This is where he wants to create his

(01:18:46):
next thing. This is where he wants to create the
new thing. And so I feel like he's kind of
the example of the full circle that we've gone on
where you have these great kind of you know, innovators, entrepreneurs,
people in science, technology, engineering who recognize just how important
this part of the world is now and making it home.

(01:19:06):
The other thing that's special about this, I think is
the connections across the globe, you know, because of where
we sit. So it's just very natural here for people
to come from Asia, Europe or the US where you know,
I always find if I mean Europe, you don't quite
get that blending. Or in the US obviously it's best
you get that blending, but not always we're here. You know,
it's very natural will be in a you know, in

(01:19:28):
a company and you know you're working with great saudis,
great people from you know, somewhere in Asia, somewhere in Europe,
somewhere in the US, all in the same team. You know,
in the NEO context, we had people from over a
hundred countries working on the project, So you know, there
is that real blending of talent from across the globe
here and that just creates something pretty unique. And it
also frankly gives you access just to a bigger market

(01:19:50):
as well. So yeah, I think people should come and
experience it for themselves. And then you won't find a
more welcoming place than here to to do big things.

Speaker 1 (01:19:59):
And when when does your actual term at NEON complete?

Speaker 2 (01:20:04):
Yesterday?

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):
Yesterday? So okay, let's just tease this that a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:20:09):
Have you got anything for us as to what is
the next stage of White Roy's life?

Speaker 4 (01:20:15):
Well, I won't you know, give it all the way today.
But what I would say is I am really in
love with this country, with the region. I'm really proud
to call this remarkable place home. I will contribute and
continue to do stuff here, working with some very interesting
people across the across the country and across the world.

(01:20:40):
And I won't give you more than that today, but
that's a little teaser.

Speaker 3 (01:20:43):
Well, knowing having watched you over many, many years, it
will be i'd say something large, something that other people
would be going, mom my, God, has he done that?
And it won't be with small partners. It'll be with
a larger partner. And what I'm hoping to do is
once again is to be proud of what why Roy

(01:21:05):
has achieved. And I'm sure that's going to be the
case next round. And we can't wait. I can't wait
to find of what the hell it is?

Speaker 1 (01:21:11):
Mate.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Well that's kind.

Speaker 4 (01:21:12):
Well I'll tell you what Mark when you come here,
we can talk about it, and I'd love to show
you the country and the people.

Speaker 2 (01:21:18):
And I think.

Speaker 4 (01:21:20):
It's been great to chat as well, because I'm really
I think this story needs to be told more and
I'm glad that you're giving a voice to something pretty
special and come and see and touch it, feel it,
and then maybe I'll tell you a bit more about
what I'm going to do.

Speaker 1 (01:21:33):
I'm planning.

Speaker 3 (01:21:34):
I'm definitely planning for twenty twenty six, but I'm thinking
about later January.

Speaker 1 (01:21:37):
Favresa a bad time of not be Is there a
Tommy You're not to be there?

Speaker 4 (01:21:41):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:21:41):
I mean no, I mean it depends where you go.

Speaker 4 (01:21:44):
The look winter in this part of the world I
think is amazing because it's perfect weather, sunny, blue skies.

Speaker 2 (01:21:50):
People don't realize this.

Speaker 4 (01:21:51):
I mean it depends what you're doing, coming from a
business point of view or a tourism point of view,
because of the diversity in landscapes and these incredible mountain ranges.
Even if you come in the middle of summer, if
you go into the mountain ranges in Saudi, you can
have these incredible kind of hot summer holidays. But you know,
it's temperate and it's cool, it's nice. It's in parts
of the country are actually really luscious, and so you know,

(01:22:15):
depending what time of the year, you might want to
pick what you're doing. But if I was to say
to somebody, if you want to experience the country at
its best coming in the middle of winter. This is
the best winter in the world here, so try and time.

Speaker 1 (01:22:27):
It for that. Man, you're looking really chilled.

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
You look like you're very happy and quite replete, So
well done mate. To be frankly, I'm quite proud of
an Australian doing so well overseas.

Speaker 1 (01:22:38):
I love seeing that, and thanks very much for your time.
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:41):
Thanks mate, now, I've really appreciated the chat and we'll
catch up soon, you bet you

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