September 8, 2025 • 35 mins
Dr. Jason Whiting explores honesty, emotions, and relationship repair as foundational elements for building trust and connection in committed partnerships.
• Honesty is universally valued but challenging to maintain consistently in relationships
• Research shows people tell an average of three lies in ten minutes when first meeting someone new
• Emotions strongly influence how we perceive our partners and can turn them into "enemies" rather than allies
• Editing words to find truth rather than hiding it distinguishes authentic honesty from reactive "brutal honesty"
• Basic self-care practices like sleep, exercise, and nutrition significantly impact relationship quality
• Negotiated timeouts provide space to calm down before addressing relationship challenges
• Authenticity develops through consistent choices to be reflective rather than defensive
• Trust requires consistent effort to build and significant time to repair after betrayal
• Small, consistent acts of commitment build trust more effectively than grand gestures
Remember that trust is something that can be grown with consistent effort, and relationships thrive when we prioritize giving them quality time and attention.
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
On today's episode, dr Liz and I welcome to the show
Dr Jason Whiting from BYU.
Together, we dive into a greatdiscussion about honesty,
emotions and becoming moreactive and less reactive when we
get triggered in relationships.
We also discuss the importanceof repairing relationships,
including forgiveness,rebuilding trust and becoming
more authentic in ourselves.
(00:25):
Dr Jason Whiting is a professorin the Marriage and Family
Therapy program at Brigham YoungUniversity.
His research projects haveincluded federally funded
initiatives to reduce abuse andstrengthen marriage, and he is
currently directing aqualitative exploration of
healthy and unhealthy intimaterelationship practices, as well
as analyses of onlinediscussions of abuse.
(00:47):
In addition to his scholarlywork, he has written for a
general audience, including thebook Love Me True Overcoming the
Surprising Ways we Deceive inRelationships, and a blog on
psychology.
Today he teaches courses onaddictions, violence and
grounded theory research methods.
In his free time, he readsbooks on a wide range of topics,
(01:08):
plays racquetball and guitar,hangs out with his family and
folds huge piles of laundry.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey there, friends.
Welcome to another episode ofStronger Marriage Connection.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity, alongside Dr Liz
(01:28):
Hale, our licensed clinicalpsychologist, our therapist, and
we are aiming to bring you thevery best that we have in
research and resources, alongwith some tips and tools to help
you create the marriage of yourdreams.
And today, so excited for ourguest today.
He is a friend, a colleague, aprofessor, marriage and family
therapist at BYU, who I've knownfor probably a couple of
(01:50):
decades at least, and I wasprobably the first one to buy
and read his book called Love MeTrue, which we'll talk about
later.
He's here with us today to talkabout trust and building
closeness in relationships.
Welcome to the show, dr Jason.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Whitey, Thanks for having me.
Dave Liz, it's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, excited for our discussion today.
Jason, can we start things outtoday talking about honesty and
trust and why it's foundationalin committed relationships and
why it's a challenge andstruggle for many couples?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's a great question and it's such a big dimension.
The last several years, I'vebeen doing a large scale
qualitative study where I'veinterviewed people from
basically all over the world andI'm basically looking at the
healthy things and the unhealthythings that happen in
relationships, and it soundslike a really basic question,
but we don't have a greattypology of what are the
(02:44):
essential things.
Almost everyone would agree onthat are that are good and and,
conversely, the things that aredoing damage.
We have a lot of knowledge andwe know things that are abusive
or or good, but but I'm kind ofworking on what are the key
dimensions.
One of those is is being honestand, on the flip side of that,
deception, and almost anyonewould agree in those that we've
(03:06):
talked to and we've talked toover 80 people honesty is
helpful, deception is nothelpful and, and, having said
all that, we value it, but it'suh, it's not always easy.
And so several years ago, whenI was thinking about this very
dimension, it just occurred tome that, as a therapist and I've
been practicing now for pushing30 years seemingly the problems
(03:27):
that continue to arise seem toalmost all be related in some
way to either minimization orexaggeration, or bias or
distortion or anger or someversion of deception.
It just is.
We just get in these modes ofnot being authentic, not being
true, not being accurate, nothaving integrity.
So I just think it's a real keydimension.
(03:49):
Having said that, it's notalways easy to do, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, even face value .
Hey, be honest in yourrelationships.
Oh okay, yeah.
Yeah, it feels like almost ano-brainer, but as we dive in
today, there's so much beneaththe surface.
I guess of yeah, just be honestand build trust right as a
foundation.
But like yeah, like you say,it's not always easy for couples
(04:13):
.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, and I think there's a lot of reasons for
that.
One is that we are socialanimals.
We are wired to want to putforth a certain image.
We want to represent ourselvesin certain ways especially.
There's been some interestingresearch done.
For example, they asked peopleto get to know each other.
These were people that didn'tknow each other at all, like on
(04:36):
a blind date, and they wouldjust say here's 10 minutes talk.
And then the interesting thingwas, after the 10 minutes they
reviewed the video and said wasthere anything in that
discussion that you said thatwasn't totally true?
And, sure enough, over half ofthem said well, yeah, actually
that wasn't true.
And the average number of liesin 10 minutes was about three.
(04:58):
That was the average.
How about that?
And it was silly stuff.
It was stuff like, oh yeah, Ireally love that band, or oh,
that's really interesting, or oh, I do this.
I mean, it was kind of thatkind of thing, the kind of stuff
that we get a lot on socialmedia.
And that number actually wentup in a subset of the
participants where they said tryto appear likable.
(05:18):
So the people that were tryingto appear likable actually were
a little less honest and againwe could get off on a whole
different discussion about, likedating profiles and things like
that, but it's, it's.
There's a lot of deception andand um and so that's kind of a
social version.
But we also, like in ourintimate relationships we we do
things like avoid conflict,right, we don't love arguments.
(05:41):
So we do things like say I'mfine when I may or may not be
fine.
We say yeah, you look great, orthis dinner is delicious, or
whatever we say, and sometimesthat makes sense, these white
lies.
But we just are complicatedsocial creatures and we also
have a lot of bias anddistortion with our emotions and
(06:04):
things like that, which we'llprobably get into a little bit.
But when we represent ourselvesin an argument, for example, we
often say things like well, yousaid it like this, and we
represent the other person witha worse tone than we do
ourselves.
In fact, this just reminded meof a kid I was meeting with.
He was a college student and hewas telling me about this
(06:25):
argument he had with hisgirlfriend and he said, yeah,
check this out.
And he pulled out his phone andhe started reading their texts
and he read his text to her inthis real calm voice and then he
read her text in this like,like this aggressive, whiny tone
, and I'm like that's funny,isn't it?
That's what we do.
I mean, these were just words,but he was portraying them in a
(06:48):
way to advantage himself andthere's a bunch of research that
shows we kind of just do thatnaturally.
So we're at a disadvantage inour relationships from from that
kind of perspective.
You just our own biases so, andyou know there's other reasons,
but those are some of the keykey we become, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
It's funny we are so darn complicated, right.
It's amazing.
It's amazing how we date, howwe find someone, how we marry,
how we stay married.
It really is quite somethingwhen you think about it.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, I agree.
It's amazing Any of us make itat all, given that we're all
different, and when you put twodifferent people together in a
relationship, the complexityjust goes up exponentially.
So it's not always easy, evenin the best circumstances.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Dr Whiting, sometimes people say and maybe this is
what you were already referringto that they're being honest,
when maybe they're just beingreactive to something.
But how do we tell thedifference?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
You know, yeah, we have this tendency when we get
hit with an emotion and we getreactive in relationships, we
get defensive, there'sdisagreements.
Again, a relationshipinherently is going to have
conflict because you have twodifferent people and so if I get
my buttons pushed I might say,well, I'm just being honest here
(07:58):
, I'm just going to be brutallyhonest.
But I'm probably just beingbrutal more than honest.
I'm being reactive, right, andit takes a little while to see
through that, because emotionskind of trick us into feeling
like what's happening is truebut it may or may not be, and
it's one of the reasons peopledon't need to say everything
(08:20):
they think in a relationship.
I mean, can you imagine arelationship where somebody just
said everything that came tothe top of their head?
Probably wouldn't be great,because and I say this in my
book that partners need to edittheir words, not to hide the
truth, but to take the time tofind it, because we have to let
dust settle a little bit, wehave to get to a better place.
(08:41):
When we're stirred up, whenwe're feeling, you know, angry
or defensive or sad, that colorswhat's happening and, like I
said, in our own reactivities wemight say something that's more
just out of the emotion, likelike I might.
I might see my partner as theproblem, but they might only be
(09:02):
12% of the problem and then Imight also be hungry, or I had a
bad exchange with somebody atwork, or whatever it is.
Maybe I have some of my ownfamily of origin sensitivity.
So it's just a lot of stuff.
It's also one of the reasons whythe advice to never go to bed
angry is not always great advice, because you shouldn't try to
(09:23):
solve your biggest and trickiestrelationship problems when
you're tired and angry.
I mean so imagine sending yourkid to go take the ACT at 1130
at night after they've beenworking all day and they're
hungry and tired.
I mean that's high-levelcognitive work and sometimes we
try to do high-levelrelationship work when we're at
our worst and that's probablynot going to end very well.
(09:45):
You need to get to a prettygood place to do that kind of
thing and not be in thatreactive Great advice, thank you
.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Jason, let's dive a little bit deeper with these
emotions and how it impacts howwe see people as objects.
Versus a person, versus myspouse All of a sudden, I get
triggered or a hook, or againhungry, angry, lonely, tired or
something that they say, and Ireact and I get defensive.
All of these types of emotionsbecause these emotions really do
it changes.
It alters Now how I see someone, and if I see them differently,
then I treat them differently.
(10:24):
It sends us in this unhealthycycle that we're almost blind to
, wouldn't you?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
say, blindness is a good description, because if I'm
in a bad space and I'm reactingout of my negative emotions,
that's probably going to stir upnegative emotions in my spouse
and now we're in a cycle andthat obviously is not going to
end very well.
So yeah, our emotions arestrong and a lot of them are
related to survival.
They, you know, they keep usalive.
They're, they're about threatand protection.
(10:51):
So if I shift into a mode thatis fight, flight or freeze, that
is a protection mode.
It's not a connection andnurturing and have a great time
with someone mode.
The problem is those aren'tusually helpful in an intimate
relationship.
I mean, there are times in theworst of abusive relationships
(11:11):
that somebody really is inthreat for their own safety, but
most of the time in ourinteractions we're not in some
danger physically.
We just get those triggerstripped and so we start feeling
like, well, you're threateningme and my body shifts into this
protection mode or a fight mode,and it varies between people
(11:33):
what they tend to do.
But that's not a good, you know, it's not a good way to connect
.
It paints the other person notjust as a threat but as an enemy
.
So we're no longer partnersworking together on an issue
like trying to solve a parentingproblem or a money problem.
Now we're adversaries andthat's not going to go very well
.
And conversely, um research hasfound that when people are in
(11:56):
good moods, even from artificialor other ways, they just tend
to give each other a break.
They tend to be in a bettermode.
There was one study where theywent to a mall.
You know, malls aren't ascommon these days, but they went
to a mall and they went topeople and they gave them gifts,
little things like fingernailclippers.
They said here you just havethis gift.
And then they would follow them.
(12:18):
Psychologists are sneaky.
And then they gave them alittle survey and said we're
just asking your opinion on howyou're satisfied you are with
your TV or your car.
Well, guess what?
The people that had the littlegift rated higher on how
satisfied they were with otherlife factors.
Just little stuff.
And then you've probably heardother research again, when
people are in bad moods, therewas a study of judges that would
(12:41):
give more more likely to giveparole after lunch than they
were before lunch.
Right, you've heard of thatkind of thing, but it applies
across other dimensions.
Teachers grade more harshly,doctors are more likely to, you
know, be a little less accuratein their diagnoses when they're
not doing very well.
So it just it.
It paints us, it just colorsour perception in a in a bigger
(13:05):
way than we think.
We just don't realize that it'shappening is what what their
reality is that we are just,after all and we're mortals,
right?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
that's what it comes down to.
Just humans, right?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
and we're emotionally humans, and we are just, after
all, mere mortals.
Right, that's what it comesdown to Just humans.
Right, we're humans and we'reemotional humans yeah, and we're
emotional.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Let's talk about that next, about emotional
regulation.
Many of us, I think, strugglewith strong emotions, again
because of that human side.
What are some specific tips orpractices you offer to help us
all stay grounded, especially inour relationships, when we
discuss some of those hot topics, some of those topics that just
trigger?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, some of the things that benefit our
relationships are just thethings that benefit us in our
own wellness, for example.
We do better, for example, whenwe are exercising, when we are
getting our sleep, when we'reeating regularly.
You know just good life skills.
Taking care of ourselves will,you know, benefit everybody.
(13:59):
You know the old saying whenmom ain't happy, nobody's happy.
You know when one person'sstruggling, who's in a position
in a family or a relationship,that will, you know, leak out
and that's actually one ofGottman's findings too is that
one of the big predictors ofrelationship failure is what he
calls diffuse physiologicalarousal People that are just
(14:21):
always ramped up because youjust don't see the same.
You say things and you dothings when you're fired up that
you wouldn't do when you'recalm.
Do when you're calm.
So, exercise and self-care.
We did a project when I workedat Texas Tech where we did a
small intervention, a four-hourintervention for couples who
(14:41):
were coming in who had abuse intheir history psychological
abuse or even physical violenceof certain types and we taught
them some skills.
We taught them relationshipsskills and we also taught them
what's called a negotiatedtimeout.
And I was surprised when I didinterviews afterwards that was
the thing they mentioned themost, that was the most useful
was the timeout.
They just didn't still use it.
(15:02):
They said we get a littlefrustrated, we do the timeout,
we come back, we're a little bitin a better place, so, again,
just calming down.
So we live in a world with alot of stress and tension and
negativity.
I think and I teach this to mystudents and my kids we need to
(15:22):
take time to do things likeexercise or mindfulness or
stress reduction or takingbreaks, so all those things will
benefit relationships.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Dave often says around here that healthy we is
made up of two healthy me's.
We just can't compromise that.
It seems it's so crucial in ourrelationships how healthy we
are.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
And then, I think, recognizing it too, jason, our
good friend Wally Goddard.
He likes to say irritation isan invitation for compassion or
for slowing down or to try tosee someone else's perspective,
and people do things for reasonsthat make sense to them.
He says so.
I think it's not easy becauseit's not.
Our first natural reaction isto bite back or to get defensive
(16:06):
.
I know, jason, when I'm feelingstressed, or even my wife is
feeling stressed, that's noteven related to our relationship
, it's something outside, justour tolerance.
Anything that she says or does,that is okay.
I'm just more short in myresponse or my reaction to our
kids or to her, when I'm nottaking care of things, and it's
(16:28):
hard to recognize it because Ifeel like stress kind of narrows
our perspective.
The broad and build theory ofnarrows our perspective, right,
the broad and build theory ofBarbara Fredrickson.
When we're happy and positiveand exercising and sleeping and
all that, we can literally seethings differently.
We're more open.
Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Completely.
Yeah, when we get irritated, weget stressed, we get
overwhelmed, the tendency is toturn inward and, like you say,
to see the other person as anirritation, as a problem.
But really, if we're able to bemature and reflective, it is an
invitation, like Wally says, tosay what's going on here.
Something is happening for youand the situation, and that's a
(17:09):
higher level skill, I mean.
That's that takes.
You know there's a maturity tothat that if you can do that,
things are going to go better.
You know, if you can kind ofstop and it's kind of part of
that honesty again saying what'sreally happening here, instead
of shifting into like a reactiveand that accountability right,
(17:30):
Responsibility, accountability.
Completely.
Yeah, that's another one ofthose key dimensions that I'm
studying right now isaccountability versus
defensiveness or making excuses.
And again, couples, people whodo this in their relationship
are doing better.
They do things like theyapologize, they say you know, I
(17:50):
was in a bad headspace, Ishouldn't have done that.
They don't make excuses, theyown their stuff.
If somebody does that in arelationship people, it invites
the other person to do the sameand then they tend to make
progress.
And again, we've probably allseen this Some people who are
seemingly not able to beaccountable but are always
defensive or blaming or sayingwell, it's not me, it's you, or
(18:12):
I was just stressed or Iwouldn't have said this to you
if you didn't do that.
That's not healthy and itdoesn't lead to change.
It's also why one of the keythings you do in an addiction
recovery group or even abatterer intervention group in
domestic violence, you startwith accountability and you
start with saying this is aproblem and it's not somebody
else's fault.
(18:32):
Of course, there's stressorsand everybody has their
challenges, but we have to focuson the things that we can do,
and that's where it starts.
That's where change starts.
And I just did another researchproject.
This is with a doctoral studentwho was looking at attachment
styles and her question was canattachment styles change?
We talk a lot about how certainpeople that grow up with maybe
(18:56):
an unhealthy situation have lesssecurity.
They have insecure or anxiousstyles.
But what she found was in somepretty in-depth interviews there
are a lot of people thatdescribe themselves as now much
more secure than they used to be.
But it took a lot of work.
That was.
The key takeaway was that theydid things like therapy and
journaling and reflecting andreading and owning and working
(19:19):
on their stuff, and that's hardwork.
Some people do it, some peopledon't, and in couples the
couples that you know work onstuff make progress and those
that blame the other person notso much yeah, yeah,
relationships take work.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
The self-awareness, those works, maturity, humility,
all of this.
We'll be right back after thisbrief message, and we're back,
let's dive right in.
(19:57):
Jason, I love your work onauthenticity and we've both
written a bit about this topic.
Big fans of the ArbingerInstitute and their resources,
can you tell us how can peoplebecome more authentic?
First, what does that mean tobe authentic, which then leads
to us being less reactive?
And in my mind, jason, settingthis up, I feel like this is one
(20:19):
of the biggest challenges of alifetime.
Right Is to feel something butnot follow it, or, in some cases
, to feel it and follow it, butman to be authentic.
What does that set that up forus?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, you're right, i's a.
I think it's a life's work andI think it's such a important
and key dimension in in the waywe are with others.
You know, one of one of myinfluences with this research
project that I'm working on isthis idea of strong
relationality, and I've beenreading some of the stuff you've
done with Adam.
You know on on what that meansand the philosophers and
thinkers that talk about how weare deeply, inextricably
(20:57):
relational.
That's where we get ouridentities, that's how we
operate, and so authenticity is.
In fact, there's a quote that Iread not long ago I wish I had
it for my book, but it was in abook by Richard Rohr, who's a
Jesuit theologian, and he citesthis other guy that says the
natural habitat for truth is inintrapersonal relationships, and
(21:22):
I thought about that for awhile and the point he makes.
He talks about how, in arelationship, we just have all
these opportunities again andagain to reflect on am I being
honest, am I being accurate?
Am I being fair or am Ishifting into more of a selfish,
biased, defensive stance?
And again and again.
Any relationship has dozens ofinteractions throughout a day,
(21:47):
and in any one of those you canchoose to be aggressive or
annoyed, or you can choose to bekind and reflective and
inaccurate and you can do thingslike we were saying earlier you
can ask what the other person'sperspective is or trying to
figure out what's going on.
That's the authentic, you knowway to do things with integrity
(22:08):
and um.
So anyway, I just think it'sour relationships that bring
that out.
And sometimes you meet thosecouples.
They've been married 50, 60years and they just have this
sweet, deep connection.
And you know those are thefolks that have worked on this.
You know they've been authentic, they've made adjustments,
(22:29):
they've made repairs.
And then sometimes you meet theones that are not that way.
They're just sort of irritatedroommates that way they're just
sort of irritated roommates andjust kind of putting up with
each other or they have gonetheir separate ways and and I
think that that's one of the keydifferentiators is whether they
have worked on thatauthenticity and that integrity
you know.
Back to your comment about it'sa life's work, yeah it, it does
(22:51):
, it feels like, uh, it's.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I've kind of thought through all this work on
authenticity and relationalitythat it's possible, jason, to
feel irritated, to even be upset, to feel these strong emotions
and still be kind.
And I think that's thechallenge of a lifestyle is to
feel these strong emotions andstill be kind and be true, and
(23:15):
to be able to see another personand feel like, okay, yeah, this
is hard for them, or just pause, it's the pause.
And be like, okay, I'm not in agood space right now.
I need to be more kind, but,man, it's a challenge, it's a
challenge, it's a challenge.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
It's a challenge.
One of the things I find myselfsaying with couples in my
therapy practice.
A lot is work on making thosethings overt, as in what you
just described, like if I'mhaving a bad day or if I'm
depressed or if I'm stressed out, for me to just say, you know
what.
I'm not in a great headspaceright now.
I need to come back to this.
I'm finding myself gettingreally irritated or reactive to
(23:52):
some things, so I need to takesome time, or or I just I just
need to make that, you know,clear, so that so that I'm not
putting it on you, or then I'mnot saying you're making me this
way, but I'm just saying thisis my experience.
You know, it's kind of like theold I messages kind of thing.
It's just owning my stuff andsaying this is where I'm at and,
um, you know I'll, I'll do thework on that and maybe you can
help me with it, but maybe not.
(24:13):
But that's just going on.
I'm not going to try to putthat off on you or someone else
in a dishonest way.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, we blow it to come back and apologize.
Be quick to apologize.
Repair.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
What you're talking about is real, true
vulnerability.
Right that, this is me, this ison me, and I'm sure that is
probably a very key role inbuilding trust.
How do we create safe spacesfor sharing difficult truths in
our relationships?
What do you think, jason?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
That's the key word, right Safe spaces.
Because if you're going to bevulnerable, you have to feel
safe.
And there are people that againhave maybe past histories that
make that harder for them.
They might have to feel safe.
And there are people that againhave maybe past histories that
make that harder for them.
They might have to do someextra work.
But if I'm in a relationshipwhere I don't feel safe to share
something, I'm going to getnailed or criticized or
(25:05):
something that's the trust andthe vulnerability is going to go
down.
So both people have to work onthat and that's relevant.
Sometimes I'll get couples whereone person is work on that and
that's relevant.
Like, sometimes, you know, I'llget couples where one person is
working on it and the otherperson is not.
One of the things I study isabuse and domestic violence and
and that's heavy stuff um, itcan be, it can be changed if
(25:25):
people are willing to do somehard work, but both have to be
willing, particularly peoplewith greater power, particularly
people that have been moreaggressive.
So, anyway, vulnerability is agood indicator of whether the
relationship is in a healthyplace or not, whether it's a
safe place or not, and peoplecreate that through the kinds of
(25:47):
things we've been discussingtoday, by being honest but also
kind.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So safety, there's a physical safety, there's an
emotional safety.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
All that stuff is tied in together Physical safety
, emotional safety, security.
You know, knowing that I'mgoing to be, you know you're not
going to say something behindmy back or you're not going to
be leaving me, that you're notgoing to be a Dr Jekyll, mr Hyde
, that you know there's acommitment kind of safety.
You know that you're not goingto be a Dr Jekyll, Mr Hyde, that
there's a commitment kind ofsafety that you're not going to
say something that I wouldn't becomfortable with you saying or
that you're not going to beunfaithful to me emotionally,
(26:19):
physically, intimately.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
So it's again a real key indicator of a lot of things
going on in the relationship.
It's really important.
It's really connected to trusttoo, which we've been talking
about.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Yes, and when that trust is damaged by dishonesty
or withholding importantinformation, where do you start
to repair?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, it's a common thing.
Trust gets damaged, sometimesin little ways, but sometimes in
big, significant ways.
I just had couples in the otherday that were both recovering
from affairs and we talked aboutthis and there's an analogy.
In fact, I have a student rightnow doing her thesis on
commitment and betrayal.
So that's one of these otherkey dimensions.
(27:03):
And she brought me thisinteresting finding the other
day.
She said commitment is peopleare describing it as a lot of
small but consistent effortsTrail.
They're describing as morediscrete events.
You know this, my husband liedto me and my wife had an
(27:23):
emotional affair.
You know these things that do alot of damage.
So it's kind of like theanalogy of you know you're
growing this beautiful plant andit takes time.
But if it's damaged, ifsomebody steps on that thing
with a betrayal, that's nowgoing to take not just some time
but some nourishing and somerepair.
So you can't just snap it backinto shape.
(27:45):
And for somebody that's damagedtrust, you can't just say, well
, you just got to get over that.
It's like saying, well, I'msorry, I broke your arm, you
just got to get over that.
It's like saying, well, I'msorry, I broke your arm, you
just got to get over that.
You know it's.
It doesn't know how it works,so it takes.
It takes a lot of time and alot of effort.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
And a lot of humility right, I suppose, on both parts
, but especially on the one.
Who's doing who's done thebetraying?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Right, and if that isn't there, there, I noticed
that.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Jason, it's tradition here on our show that we ask
all of our guests the followingquestion.
It's really the name of ourpodcast, Stronger Marriage
Connection.
In your mind, what is the keyto a stronger marriage
connection?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Given our discussion today.
But I would say this overalllet's go with trust.
That's a finding that Gottmanand others have also focused on
that if you're going to have astrong relationship, like I just
said, some people will staytogether without trust, but it's
not going to be a particularlyclose or safe or vulnerable
relationship.
You want to have a strongconnection, there's got to be
(28:50):
trust.
Strong connection, there's gotto be trust.
You've got to know that thatperson is deeply committed to
you, that you can count on them,that they have your back, that
they're not going to suddenlysurprise you with some awful
thing.
So that takes work and it takestime, but, boy, it's worth
having if you're going to have astrong, committed connection.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
I like that, and please tell us, jason, where can
our listeners go to find outmore about you, your research
you've done and any otherhelpful resources that you want
to share with us, please?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, sure, I have a website, drjasonwhitingcom, and
it has some resources and someinformation.
I do a blog on psychology todayfairly regularly.
That's probably my biggestoutlet where people can see some
of the short form discussionsof my research.
As Dave mentioned, I have abook on this topic called Love
(29:42):
Me True Overcoming theSurprising Ways we Deceive in
Relationships, and it's alsopretty easy to find me just on
my BYU University website.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
That's a classic book .
We will add these resources toour show notes.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, for sure, jason .
Another question we'd like toask is, as we wrap up we call it
a takeaway of the day Is therea take-home message that you
want to emphasize you hope ourlisteners will remember from our
discussion today?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I would say remember that trust is something that can
be grown.
It just takes effort, and Ithink that's a takeaway message
that's always a good reminderfor relationships is that for
most of us, we would say theseare some of the highest
priorities in our lives, but arethey getting prime time?
If you're spending quality andquantity time in your
(30:31):
relationships, that trust isgoing to grow.
If you are scattered and doingother stuff and spending all
your time on Instagram or atwork or whatever, that's not
going to necessarily benurturing of your relationship.
So it takes a little work, butit's absolutely worth it.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yes, it is Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway today?
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I love how we sometimes say look, I'm just
being brutally honest, right asif that was some wonderful trait
I have, because really I'm justbeing brutal and I love what
you said, jason, about editingour words to take the time to
find it, not not hide it.
That's really taking the time,to be honest.
That's what that's about.
They get that right, jason, amI saying yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
to take the time to find the truth instead of hiding
it.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, I love it.
It takes a little work to findthe truth, I think I think
that's really wise, instead ofjust being brutally honest,
right, which takes no time, noeffort.
Right, it's just me speakingand and I'm trying to find a
justification for it.
Yeah, dave, what about you?
What's the rich nugget?
You hope that all of usremember, from our time to today
(31:38):
, with dr jason lighting yeah, Ithink for me it's the emotions.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
the emotions part and jc talked about.
It's like kicking up dust, youknow, and then we can't see, we
see the person differently andin my mind I like to think it's
like there's almost like twoversions, maybe multiple
versions, versions of Dr Davis.
Right, there's version one andversion two, and when I move
over to version two, it's notthe real me.
You know, when I get reactiveor really disgusted or irritated
(32:03):
or say, you know, my blood ispumping, that's not the real me.
And the more I can be true tothe real you right to version
one, and when I feel it don'tfollow it, I can pause, catch
myself, be like, ah, you know, Ineed a break.
If I can vocalize that, say,man, you know, I am just really
overwhelmed.
(32:24):
It's probably not the best timeto discuss this, whatever that
is, before I flip to day versiontwo.
At the end of the day, yeah,there's a lifetime of work that
I'm striving to do, but for me Ithink that that is learning to
be more of a I call it emotionalfirst responder respond to my
emotions instead of a nuclearreactor, and react to those
(32:46):
emotions.
Jason, that's really helpful.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, I actually love that.
I have a lot of discussionswith people in therapy, with
what you just said, which istrying to find the authentic
real you, because so muchhappens which is not.
It's coming from these reactivejustifying places.
Even people that have domesticviolence pretty serious things
don't usually do it because itfeels good.
(33:09):
That's not the real them.
So there's treatments that workon getting reconnected with
their compassion, with theirvalues.
Most people want to be goodpeople and it feels good to be a
good person.
It doesn't feel good to beaggressive, to be deceptive, to
be dishonest.
So, anyway, just wanted tosecond what you said there,
which is so much of healthyrelationships is finding our
best selves and most of us aregood people.
(33:30):
We just have to really findthat and tap into it.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
that person, yeah, yeah it's also great for
partners to remember maybe tooright like I'm gonna give him a
break.
I know this.
He's not his best self rightnow I get.
I see him, I get him.
I under the.
I understand the pressure he'sunder.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Um, that's probably good for us as well, right,
totally yeah and not to takethose the personal, like version
two, too personal, because youknow a lot of it is the
adrenaline or the emotion comingout and be like, okay, I know
that, yeah, this isn't the realperson coming out, but, yeah,
giving grace, this has been afantastic discussion, jason,
(34:09):
thanks so much for making timeto come on and share with us.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Thanks for having me.
It's been really fun discussionwith you guys.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
All right, friends, that does it for us.
We'll see you next time onanother episode of the Stronger
Marriage Connection podcast.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
And remember it's the small things that create a
stronger marriage connection.
Take good care of you and eachother.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(34:50):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(35:11):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
(35:31):
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
On today's episode, dr Liz and I welcome to the show
Dr Jason Whiting from BYU.
Together, we dive into a greatdiscussion about honesty,
emotions and becoming moreactive and less reactive when we
get triggered in relationships.
We also discuss the importanceof repairing relationships,
including forgiveness,rebuilding trust and becoming
more authentic in ourselves.
(00:25):
Dr Jason Whiting is a professorin the Marriage and Family
Therapy program at Brigham YoungUniversity.
His research projects haveincluded federally funded
initiatives to reduce abuse andstrengthen marriage, and he is
currently directing aqualitative exploration of
healthy and unhealthy intimaterelationship practices, as well
as analyses of onlinediscussions of abuse.
(00:47):
In addition to his scholarlywork, he has written for a
general audience, including thebook Love Me True Overcoming the
Surprising Ways we Deceive inRelationships, and a blog on
psychology.
Today he teaches courses onaddictions, violence and
grounded theory research methods.
In his free time, he readsbooks on a wide range of topics,
(01:08):
plays racquetball and guitar,hangs out with his family and
folds huge piles of laundry.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey there, friends.
Welcome to another episode ofStronger Marriage Connection.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity, alongside Dr Liz
(01:28):
Hale, our licensed clinicalpsychologist, our therapist, and
we are aiming to bring you thevery best that we have in
research and resources, alongwith some tips and tools to help
you create the marriage of yourdreams.
And today, so excited for ourguest today.
He is a friend, a colleague, aprofessor, marriage and family
therapist at BYU, who I've knownfor probably a couple of
(01:50):
decades at least, and I wasprobably the first one to buy
and read his book called Love MeTrue, which we'll talk about
later.
He's here with us today to talkabout trust and building
closeness in relationships.
Welcome to the show, dr Jason.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Whitey, Thanks for having me.
Dave Liz, it's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, excited for our discussion today.
Jason, can we start things outtoday talking about honesty and
trust and why it's foundationalin committed relationships and
why it's a challenge andstruggle for many couples?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's a great question and it's such a big dimension.
The last several years, I'vebeen doing a large scale
qualitative study where I'veinterviewed people from
basically all over the world andI'm basically looking at the
healthy things and the unhealthythings that happen in
relationships, and it soundslike a really basic question,
but we don't have a greattypology of what are the
(02:44):
essential things.
Almost everyone would agree onthat are that are good and and,
conversely, the things that aredoing damage.
We have a lot of knowledge andwe know things that are abusive
or or good, but but I'm kind ofworking on what are the key
dimensions.
One of those is is being honestand, on the flip side of that,
deception, and almost anyonewould agree in those that we've
(03:06):
talked to and we've talked toover 80 people honesty is
helpful, deception is nothelpful and, and, having said
all that, we value it, but it'suh, it's not always easy.
And so several years ago, whenI was thinking about this very
dimension, it just occurred tome that, as a therapist and I've
been practicing now for pushing30 years seemingly the problems
(03:27):
that continue to arise seem toalmost all be related in some
way to either minimization orexaggeration, or bias or
distortion or anger or someversion of deception.
It just is.
We just get in these modes ofnot being authentic, not being
true, not being accurate, nothaving integrity.
So I just think it's a real keydimension.
(03:49):
Having said that, it's notalways easy to do, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, even face value .
Hey, be honest in yourrelationships.
Oh okay, yeah.
Yeah, it feels like almost ano-brainer, but as we dive in
today, there's so much beneaththe surface.
I guess of yeah, just be honestand build trust right as a
foundation.
But like yeah, like you say,it's not always easy for couples
(04:13):
.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, and I think there's a lot of reasons for
that.
One is that we are socialanimals.
We are wired to want to putforth a certain image.
We want to represent ourselvesin certain ways especially.
There's been some interestingresearch done.
For example, they asked peopleto get to know each other.
These were people that didn'tknow each other at all, like on
(04:36):
a blind date, and they wouldjust say here's 10 minutes talk.
And then the interesting thingwas, after the 10 minutes they
reviewed the video and said wasthere anything in that
discussion that you said thatwasn't totally true?
And, sure enough, over half ofthem said well, yeah, actually
that wasn't true.
And the average number of liesin 10 minutes was about three.
(04:58):
That was the average.
How about that?
And it was silly stuff.
It was stuff like, oh yeah, Ireally love that band, or oh,
that's really interesting, or oh, I do this.
I mean, it was kind of thatkind of thing, the kind of stuff
that we get a lot on socialmedia.
And that number actually wentup in a subset of the
participants where they said tryto appear likable.
(05:18):
So the people that were tryingto appear likable actually were
a little less honest and againwe could get off on a whole
different discussion about, likedating profiles and things like
that, but it's, it's.
There's a lot of deception andand um and so that's kind of a
social version.
But we also, like in ourintimate relationships we we do
things like avoid conflict,right, we don't love arguments.
(05:41):
So we do things like say I'mfine when I may or may not be
fine.
We say yeah, you look great, orthis dinner is delicious, or
whatever we say, and sometimesthat makes sense, these white
lies.
But we just are complicatedsocial creatures and we also
have a lot of bias anddistortion with our emotions and
(06:04):
things like that, which we'llprobably get into a little bit.
But when we represent ourselvesin an argument, for example, we
often say things like well, yousaid it like this, and we
represent the other person witha worse tone than we do
ourselves.
In fact, this just reminded meof a kid I was meeting with.
He was a college student and hewas telling me about this
(06:25):
argument he had with hisgirlfriend and he said, yeah,
check this out.
And he pulled out his phone andhe started reading their texts
and he read his text to her inthis real calm voice and then he
read her text in this like,like this aggressive, whiny tone
, and I'm like that's funny,isn't it?
That's what we do.
I mean, these were just words,but he was portraying them in a
(06:48):
way to advantage himself andthere's a bunch of research that
shows we kind of just do thatnaturally.
So we're at a disadvantage inour relationships from from that
kind of perspective.
You just our own biases so, andyou know there's other reasons,
but those are some of the keykey we become, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
It's funny we are so darn complicated, right.
It's amazing.
It's amazing how we date, howwe find someone, how we marry,
how we stay married.
It really is quite somethingwhen you think about it.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, I agree.
It's amazing Any of us make itat all, given that we're all
different, and when you put twodifferent people together in a
relationship, the complexityjust goes up exponentially.
So it's not always easy, evenin the best circumstances.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Dr Whiting, sometimes people say and maybe this is
what you were already referringto that they're being honest,
when maybe they're just beingreactive to something.
But how do we tell thedifference?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
You know, yeah, we have this tendency when we get
hit with an emotion and we getreactive in relationships, we
get defensive, there'sdisagreements.
Again, a relationshipinherently is going to have
conflict because you have twodifferent people and so if I get
my buttons pushed I might say,well, I'm just being honest here
(07:58):
, I'm just going to be brutallyhonest.
But I'm probably just beingbrutal more than honest.
I'm being reactive, right, andit takes a little while to see
through that, because emotionskind of trick us into feeling
like what's happening is truebut it may or may not be, and
it's one of the reasons peopledon't need to say everything
(08:20):
they think in a relationship.
I mean, can you imagine arelationship where somebody just
said everything that came tothe top of their head?
Probably wouldn't be great,because and I say this in my
book that partners need to edittheir words, not to hide the
truth, but to take the time tofind it, because we have to let
dust settle a little bit, wehave to get to a better place.
(08:41):
When we're stirred up, whenwe're feeling, you know, angry
or defensive or sad, that colorswhat's happening and, like I
said, in our own reactivities wemight say something that's more
just out of the emotion, likelike I might.
I might see my partner as theproblem, but they might only be
(09:02):
12% of the problem and then Imight also be hungry, or I had a
bad exchange with somebody atwork, or whatever it is.
Maybe I have some of my ownfamily of origin sensitivity.
So it's just a lot of stuff.
It's also one of the reasons whythe advice to never go to bed
angry is not always great advice, because you shouldn't try to
(09:23):
solve your biggest and trickiestrelationship problems when
you're tired and angry.
I mean so imagine sending yourkid to go take the ACT at 1130
at night after they've beenworking all day and they're
hungry and tired.
I mean that's high-levelcognitive work and sometimes we
try to do high-levelrelationship work when we're at
our worst and that's probablynot going to end very well.
(09:45):
You need to get to a prettygood place to do that kind of
thing and not be in thatreactive Great advice, thank you
.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Jason, let's dive a little bit deeper with these
emotions and how it impacts howwe see people as objects.
Versus a person, versus myspouse All of a sudden, I get
triggered or a hook, or againhungry, angry, lonely, tired or
something that they say, and Ireact and I get defensive.
All of these types of emotionsbecause these emotions really do
it changes.
It alters Now how I see someone, and if I see them differently,
then I treat them differently.
(10:24):
It sends us in this unhealthycycle that we're almost blind to
, wouldn't you?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
say, blindness is a good description, because if I'm
in a bad space and I'm reactingout of my negative emotions,
that's probably going to stir upnegative emotions in my spouse
and now we're in a cycle andthat obviously is not going to
end very well.
So yeah, our emotions arestrong and a lot of them are
related to survival.
They, you know, they keep usalive.
They're, they're about threatand protection.
(10:51):
So if I shift into a mode thatis fight, flight or freeze, that
is a protection mode.
It's not a connection andnurturing and have a great time
with someone mode.
The problem is those aren'tusually helpful in an intimate
relationship.
I mean, there are times in theworst of abusive relationships
(11:11):
that somebody really is inthreat for their own safety, but
most of the time in ourinteractions we're not in some
danger physically.
We just get those triggerstripped and so we start feeling
like, well, you're threateningme and my body shifts into this
protection mode or a fight mode,and it varies between people
(11:33):
what they tend to do.
But that's not a good, you know, it's not a good way to connect
.
It paints the other person notjust as a threat but as an enemy
.
So we're no longer partnersworking together on an issue
like trying to solve a parentingproblem or a money problem.
Now we're adversaries andthat's not going to go very well
.
And conversely, um research hasfound that when people are in
(11:56):
good moods, even from artificialor other ways, they just tend
to give each other a break.
They tend to be in a bettermode.
There was one study where theywent to a mall.
You know, malls aren't ascommon these days, but they went
to a mall and they went topeople and they gave them gifts,
little things like fingernailclippers.
They said here you just havethis gift.
And then they would follow them.
(12:18):
Psychologists are sneaky.
And then they gave them alittle survey and said we're
just asking your opinion on howyou're satisfied you are with
your TV or your car.
Well, guess what?
The people that had the littlegift rated higher on how
satisfied they were with otherlife factors.
Just little stuff.
And then you've probably heardother research again, when
people are in bad moods, therewas a study of judges that would
(12:41):
give more more likely to giveparole after lunch than they
were before lunch.
Right, you've heard of thatkind of thing, but it applies
across other dimensions.
Teachers grade more harshly,doctors are more likely to, you
know, be a little less accuratein their diagnoses when they're
not doing very well.
So it just it.
It paints us, it just colorsour perception in a in a bigger
(13:05):
way than we think.
We just don't realize that it'shappening is what what their
reality is that we are just,after all and we're mortals,
right?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
that's what it comes down to.
Just humans, right?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
and we're emotionally humans, and we are just, after
all, mere mortals.
Right, that's what it comesdown to Just humans.
Right, we're humans and we'reemotional humans yeah, and we're
emotional.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Let's talk about that next, about emotional
regulation.
Many of us, I think, strugglewith strong emotions, again
because of that human side.
What are some specific tips orpractices you offer to help us
all stay grounded, especially inour relationships, when we
discuss some of those hot topics, some of those topics that just
trigger?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, some of the things that benefit our
relationships are just thethings that benefit us in our
own wellness, for example.
We do better, for example, whenwe are exercising, when we are
getting our sleep, when we'reeating regularly.
You know just good life skills.
Taking care of ourselves will,you know, benefit everybody.
(13:59):
You know the old saying whenmom ain't happy, nobody's happy.
You know when one person'sstruggling, who's in a position
in a family or a relationship,that will, you know, leak out
and that's actually one ofGottman's findings too is that
one of the big predictors ofrelationship failure is what he
calls diffuse physiologicalarousal People that are just
(14:21):
always ramped up because youjust don't see the same.
You say things and you dothings when you're fired up that
you wouldn't do when you'recalm.
Do when you're calm.
So, exercise and self-care.
We did a project when I workedat Texas Tech where we did a
small intervention, a four-hourintervention for couples who
(14:41):
were coming in who had abuse intheir history psychological
abuse or even physical violenceof certain types and we taught
them some skills.
We taught them relationshipsskills and we also taught them
what's called a negotiatedtimeout.
And I was surprised when I didinterviews afterwards that was
the thing they mentioned themost, that was the most useful
was the timeout.
They just didn't still use it.
(15:02):
They said we get a littlefrustrated, we do the timeout,
we come back, we're a little bitin a better place, so, again,
just calming down.
So we live in a world with alot of stress and tension and
negativity.
I think and I teach this to mystudents and my kids we need to
(15:22):
take time to do things likeexercise or mindfulness or
stress reduction or takingbreaks, so all those things will
benefit relationships.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Dave often says around here that healthy we is
made up of two healthy me's.
We just can't compromise that.
It seems it's so crucial in ourrelationships how healthy we
are.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
And then, I think, recognizing it too, jason, our
good friend Wally Goddard.
He likes to say irritation isan invitation for compassion or
for slowing down or to try tosee someone else's perspective,
and people do things for reasonsthat make sense to them.
He says so.
I think it's not easy becauseit's not.
Our first natural reaction isto bite back or to get defensive
(16:06):
.
I know, jason, when I'm feelingstressed, or even my wife is
feeling stressed, that's noteven related to our relationship
, it's something outside, justour tolerance.
Anything that she says or does,that is okay.
I'm just more short in myresponse or my reaction to our
kids or to her, when I'm nottaking care of things, and it's
(16:28):
hard to recognize it because Ifeel like stress kind of narrows
our perspective.
The broad and build theory ofnarrows our perspective, right,
the broad and build theory ofBarbara Fredrickson.
When we're happy and positiveand exercising and sleeping and
all that, we can literally seethings differently.
We're more open.
Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Completely.
Yeah, when we get irritated, weget stressed, we get
overwhelmed, the tendency is toturn inward and, like you say,
to see the other person as anirritation, as a problem.
But really, if we're able to bemature and reflective, it is an
invitation, like Wally says, tosay what's going on here.
Something is happening for youand the situation, and that's a
(17:09):
higher level skill, I mean.
That's that takes.
You know there's a maturity tothat that if you can do that,
things are going to go better.
You know, if you can kind ofstop and it's kind of part of
that honesty again saying what'sreally happening here, instead
of shifting into like a reactiveand that accountability right,
(17:30):
Responsibility, accountability.
Completely.
Yeah, that's another one ofthose key dimensions that I'm
studying right now isaccountability versus
defensiveness or making excuses.
And again, couples, people whodo this in their relationship
are doing better.
They do things like theyapologize, they say you know, I
(17:50):
was in a bad headspace, Ishouldn't have done that.
They don't make excuses, theyown their stuff.
If somebody does that in arelationship people, it invites
the other person to do the sameand then they tend to make
progress.
And again, we've probably allseen this Some people who are
seemingly not able to beaccountable but are always
defensive or blaming or sayingwell, it's not me, it's you, or
(18:12):
I was just stressed or Iwouldn't have said this to you
if you didn't do that.
That's not healthy and itdoesn't lead to change.
It's also why one of the keythings you do in an addiction
recovery group or even abatterer intervention group in
domestic violence, you startwith accountability and you
start with saying this is aproblem and it's not somebody
else's fault.
(18:32):
Of course, there's stressorsand everybody has their
challenges, but we have to focuson the things that we can do,
and that's where it starts.
That's where change starts.
And I just did another researchproject.
This is with a doctoral studentwho was looking at attachment
styles and her question was canattachment styles change?
We talk a lot about how certainpeople that grow up with maybe
(18:56):
an unhealthy situation have lesssecurity.
They have insecure or anxiousstyles.
But what she found was in somepretty in-depth interviews there
are a lot of people thatdescribe themselves as now much
more secure than they used to be.
But it took a lot of work.
That was.
The key takeaway was that theydid things like therapy and
journaling and reflecting andreading and owning and working
(19:19):
on their stuff, and that's hardwork.
Some people do it, some peopledon't, and in couples the
couples that you know work onstuff make progress and those
that blame the other person notso much yeah, yeah,
relationships take work.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
The self-awareness, those works, maturity, humility,
all of this.
We'll be right back after thisbrief message, and we're back,
let's dive right in.
(19:57):
Jason, I love your work onauthenticity and we've both
written a bit about this topic.
Big fans of the ArbingerInstitute and their resources,
can you tell us how can peoplebecome more authentic?
First, what does that mean tobe authentic, which then leads
to us being less reactive?
And in my mind, jason, settingthis up, I feel like this is one
(20:19):
of the biggest challenges of alifetime.
Right Is to feel something butnot follow it, or, in some cases
, to feel it and follow it, butman to be authentic.
What does that set that up forus?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, you're right, i's a.
I think it's a life's work andI think it's such a important
and key dimension in in the waywe are with others.
You know, one of one of myinfluences with this research
project that I'm working on isthis idea of strong
relationality, and I've beenreading some of the stuff you've
done with Adam.
You know on on what that meansand the philosophers and
thinkers that talk about how weare deeply, inextricably
(20:57):
relational.
That's where we get ouridentities, that's how we
operate, and so authenticity is.
In fact, there's a quote that Iread not long ago I wish I had
it for my book, but it was in abook by Richard Rohr, who's a
Jesuit theologian, and he citesthis other guy that says the
natural habitat for truth is inintrapersonal relationships, and
(21:22):
I thought about that for awhile and the point he makes.
He talks about how, in arelationship, we just have all
these opportunities again andagain to reflect on am I being
honest, am I being accurate?
Am I being fair or am Ishifting into more of a selfish,
biased, defensive stance?
And again and again.
Any relationship has dozens ofinteractions throughout a day,
(21:47):
and in any one of those you canchoose to be aggressive or
annoyed, or you can choose to bekind and reflective and
inaccurate and you can do thingslike we were saying earlier you
can ask what the other person'sperspective is or trying to
figure out what's going on.
That's the authentic, you knowway to do things with integrity
(22:08):
and um.
So anyway, I just think it'sour relationships that bring
that out.
And sometimes you meet thosecouples.
They've been married 50, 60years and they just have this
sweet, deep connection.
And you know those are thefolks that have worked on this.
You know they've been authentic, they've made adjustments,
(22:29):
they've made repairs.
And then sometimes you meet theones that are not that way.
They're just sort of irritatedroommates that way they're just
sort of irritated roommates andjust kind of putting up with
each other or they have gonetheir separate ways and and I
think that that's one of the keydifferentiators is whether they
have worked on thatauthenticity and that integrity
you know.
Back to your comment about it'sa life's work, yeah it, it does
(22:51):
, it feels like, uh, it's.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I've kind of thought through all this work on
authenticity and relationalitythat it's possible, jason, to
feel irritated, to even be upset, to feel these strong emotions
and still be kind.
And I think that's thechallenge of a lifestyle is to
feel these strong emotions andstill be kind and be true, and
(23:15):
to be able to see another personand feel like, okay, yeah, this
is hard for them, or just pause, it's the pause.
And be like, okay, I'm not in agood space right now.
I need to be more kind, but,man, it's a challenge, it's a
challenge, it's a challenge.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
It's a challenge.
One of the things I find myselfsaying with couples in my
therapy practice.
A lot is work on making thosethings overt, as in what you
just described, like if I'mhaving a bad day or if I'm
depressed or if I'm stressed out, for me to just say, you know
what.
I'm not in a great headspaceright now.
I need to come back to this.
I'm finding myself gettingreally irritated or reactive to
(23:52):
some things, so I need to takesome time, or or I just I just
need to make that, you know,clear, so that so that I'm not
putting it on you, or then I'mnot saying you're making me this
way, but I'm just saying thisis my experience.
You know, it's kind of like theold I messages kind of thing.
It's just owning my stuff andsaying this is where I'm at and,
um, you know I'll, I'll do thework on that and maybe you can
help me with it, but maybe not.
(24:13):
But that's just going on.
I'm not going to try to putthat off on you or someone else
in a dishonest way.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, we blow it to come back and apologize.
Be quick to apologize.
Repair.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
What you're talking about is real, true
vulnerability.
Right that, this is me, this ison me, and I'm sure that is
probably a very key role inbuilding trust.
How do we create safe spacesfor sharing difficult truths in
our relationships?
What do you think, jason?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
That's the key word, right Safe spaces.
Because if you're going to bevulnerable, you have to feel
safe.
And there are people that againhave maybe past histories that
make that harder for them.
They might have to feel safe.
And there are people that againhave maybe past histories that
make that harder for them.
They might have to do someextra work.
But if I'm in a relationshipwhere I don't feel safe to share
something, I'm going to getnailed or criticized or
(25:05):
something that's the trust andthe vulnerability is going to go
down.
So both people have to work onthat and that's relevant.
Sometimes I'll get couples whereone person is work on that and
that's relevant.
Like, sometimes, you know, I'llget couples where one person is
working on it and the otherperson is not.
One of the things I study isabuse and domestic violence and
and that's heavy stuff um, itcan be, it can be changed if
(25:25):
people are willing to do somehard work, but both have to be
willing, particularly peoplewith greater power, particularly
people that have been moreaggressive.
So, anyway, vulnerability is agood indicator of whether the
relationship is in a healthyplace or not, whether it's a
safe place or not, and peoplecreate that through the kinds of
(25:47):
things we've been discussingtoday, by being honest but also
kind.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So safety, there's a physical safety, there's an
emotional safety.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
All that stuff is tied in together Physical safety
, emotional safety, security.
You know, knowing that I'mgoing to be, you know you're not
going to say something behindmy back or you're not going to
be leaving me, that you're notgoing to be a Dr Jekyll, mr Hyde
, that you know there's acommitment kind of safety.
You know that you're not goingto be a Dr Jekyll, Mr Hyde, that
there's a commitment kind ofsafety that you're not going to
say something that I wouldn't becomfortable with you saying or
that you're not going to beunfaithful to me emotionally,
(26:19):
physically, intimately.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
So it's again a real key indicator of a lot of things
going on in the relationship.
It's really important.
It's really connected to trusttoo, which we've been talking
about.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Yes, and when that trust is damaged by dishonesty
or withholding importantinformation, where do you start
to repair?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, it's a common thing.
Trust gets damaged, sometimesin little ways, but sometimes in
big, significant ways.
I just had couples in the otherday that were both recovering
from affairs and we talked aboutthis and there's an analogy.
In fact, I have a student rightnow doing her thesis on
commitment and betrayal.
So that's one of these otherkey dimensions.
(27:03):
And she brought me thisinteresting finding the other
day.
She said commitment is peopleare describing it as a lot of
small but consistent effortsTrail.
They're describing as morediscrete events.
You know this, my husband liedto me and my wife had an
(27:23):
emotional affair.
You know these things that do alot of damage.
So it's kind of like theanalogy of you know you're
growing this beautiful plant andit takes time.
But if it's damaged, ifsomebody steps on that thing
with a betrayal, that's nowgoing to take not just some time
but some nourishing and somerepair.
So you can't just snap it backinto shape.
(27:45):
And for somebody that's damagedtrust, you can't just say, well
, you just got to get over that.
It's like saying, well, I'msorry, I broke your arm, you
just got to get over that.
It's like saying, well, I'msorry, I broke your arm, you
just got to get over that.
You know it's.
It doesn't know how it works,so it takes.
It takes a lot of time and alot of effort.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
And a lot of humility right, I suppose, on both parts
, but especially on the one.
Who's doing who's done thebetraying?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Right, and if that isn't there, there, I noticed
that.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Jason, it's tradition here on our show that we ask
all of our guests the followingquestion.
It's really the name of ourpodcast, Stronger Marriage
Connection.
In your mind, what is the keyto a stronger marriage
connection?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Given our discussion today.
But I would say this overalllet's go with trust.
That's a finding that Gottmanand others have also focused on
that if you're going to have astrong relationship, like I just
said, some people will staytogether without trust, but it's
not going to be a particularlyclose or safe or vulnerable
relationship.
You want to have a strongconnection, there's got to be
(28:50):
trust.
Strong connection, there's gotto be trust.
You've got to know that thatperson is deeply committed to
you, that you can count on them,that they have your back, that
they're not going to suddenlysurprise you with some awful
thing.
So that takes work and it takestime, but, boy, it's worth
having if you're going to have astrong, committed connection.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
I like that, and please tell us, jason, where can
our listeners go to find outmore about you, your research
you've done and any otherhelpful resources that you want
to share with us, please?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, sure, I have a website, drjasonwhitingcom, and
it has some resources and someinformation.
I do a blog on psychology todayfairly regularly.
That's probably my biggestoutlet where people can see some
of the short form discussionsof my research.
As Dave mentioned, I have abook on this topic called Love
(29:42):
Me True Overcoming theSurprising Ways we Deceive in
Relationships, and it's alsopretty easy to find me just on
my BYU University website.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
That's a classic book .
We will add these resources toour show notes.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, for sure, jason .
Another question we'd like toask is, as we wrap up we call it
a takeaway of the day Is therea take-home message that you
want to emphasize you hope ourlisteners will remember from our
discussion today?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I would say remember that trust is something that can
be grown.
It just takes effort, and Ithink that's a takeaway message
that's always a good reminderfor relationships is that for
most of us, we would say theseare some of the highest
priorities in our lives, but arethey getting prime time?
If you're spending quality andquantity time in your
(30:31):
relationships, that trust isgoing to grow.
If you are scattered and doingother stuff and spending all
your time on Instagram or atwork or whatever, that's not
going to necessarily benurturing of your relationship.
So it takes a little work, butit's absolutely worth it.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yes, it is Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway today?
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I love how we sometimes say look, I'm just
being brutally honest, right asif that was some wonderful trait
I have, because really I'm justbeing brutal and I love what
you said, jason, about editingour words to take the time to
find it, not not hide it.
That's really taking the time,to be honest.
That's what that's about.
They get that right, jason, amI saying yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
to take the time to find the truth instead of hiding
it.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, I love it.
It takes a little work to findthe truth, I think I think
that's really wise, instead ofjust being brutally honest,
right, which takes no time, noeffort.
Right, it's just me speakingand and I'm trying to find a
justification for it.
Yeah, dave, what about you?
What's the rich nugget?
You hope that all of usremember, from our time to today
(31:38):
, with dr jason lighting yeah, Ithink for me it's the emotions.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
the emotions part and jc talked about.
It's like kicking up dust, youknow, and then we can't see, we
see the person differently andin my mind I like to think it's
like there's almost like twoversions, maybe multiple
versions, versions of Dr Davis.
Right, there's version one andversion two, and when I move
over to version two, it's notthe real me.
You know, when I get reactiveor really disgusted or irritated
(32:03):
or say, you know, my blood ispumping, that's not the real me.
And the more I can be true tothe real you right to version
one, and when I feel it don'tfollow it, I can pause, catch
myself, be like, ah, you know, Ineed a break.
If I can vocalize that, say,man, you know, I am just really
overwhelmed.
(32:24):
It's probably not the best timeto discuss this, whatever that
is, before I flip to day versiontwo.
At the end of the day, yeah,there's a lifetime of work that
I'm striving to do, but for me Ithink that that is learning to
be more of a I call it emotionalfirst responder respond to my
emotions instead of a nuclearreactor, and react to those
(32:46):
emotions.
Jason, that's really helpful.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, I actually love that.
I have a lot of discussionswith people in therapy, with
what you just said, which istrying to find the authentic
real you, because so muchhappens which is not.
It's coming from these reactivejustifying places.
Even people that have domesticviolence pretty serious things
don't usually do it because itfeels good.
(33:09):
That's not the real them.
So there's treatments that workon getting reconnected with
their compassion, with theirvalues.
Most people want to be goodpeople and it feels good to be a
good person.
It doesn't feel good to beaggressive, to be deceptive, to
be dishonest.
So, anyway, just wanted tosecond what you said there,
which is so much of healthyrelationships is finding our
best selves and most of us aregood people.
(33:30):
We just have to really findthat and tap into it.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
that person, yeah, yeah it's also great for
partners to remember maybe tooright like I'm gonna give him a
break.
I know this.
He's not his best self rightnow I get.
I see him, I get him.
I under the.
I understand the pressure he'sunder.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Um, that's probably good for us as well, right,
totally yeah and not to takethose the personal, like version
two, too personal, because youknow a lot of it is the
adrenaline or the emotion comingout and be like, okay, I know
that, yeah, this isn't the realperson coming out, but, yeah,
giving grace, this has been afantastic discussion, jason,
(34:09):
thanks so much for making timeto come on and share with us.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Thanks for having me.
It's been really fun discussionwith you guys.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
All right, friends, that does it for us.
We'll see you next time onanother episode of the Stronger
Marriage Connection podcast.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
And remember it's the small things that create a
stronger marriage connection.
Take good care of you and eachother.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(34:50):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(35:11):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
(35:31):
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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