March 31, 2025 • 36 mins
Betrayal trauma occurs when trust is violated within a relationship, creating a profound alteration of reality for the betrayed partner and causing symptoms similar to PTSD. David Jones, a licensed marriage and family therapist, shares insights on the unique challenges of betrayal trauma and offers a three-part framework for healing.
• Betrayal trauma is defined as an "alteration of reality" - discovering that what you thought was true about your relationship wasn't
• What makes betrayal trauma unique is that the betrayed often must interact with the source of their trauma
• The "three legs of the stool" framework for healing: boundaries, individual coping skills/self-care, and connections
• Recovery takes significant time - often years - but healing is possible whether the relationship continues or ends
• Forgiveness does not equal trust - forgiveness is releasing bitterness while trust must be earned through consistent behavior
• Emotional safety forms the foundation for rebuilding connection after betrayal
• Support people should be "marriage friendly" if the couple is working toward reconciliation
If you'd like to learn more about the resources discussed in this episode, visit Secure Connection Counseling at secureconnectioncounseling.com or explore the resources available at StrongerMarriage.org.
David's Links:
https://secureconnectioncounseling.com/
About David Jones:
David Jones is dedicated to strengthening marriages and families. Growing up with divorced parents and a father in recovery from alcoholism shaped his passion for helping couples navigate challenges. His own blended family of eight children further fuels his commitment to marriage therapy.
A Certified Emotionally Focused Therapist, Certified Family Life Educator, and EFT Supervisor Candidate, David specializes in helping couples facing betrayal trauma, infidelity, sexual addiction, and ADHD-related relationship struggles. He also teaches university courses on family relationships and serves as an Army Reserve Chaplain, expanding his real-world perspective.
As an AAMFT-Approved Supervisor and EFT Supervisor in Training, David is a leader in his field. He applies attachment theory to therapy, believing that secure relationships not only heal but create lasting transformation. Clients often credit his work with saving their marriages. With a deep well of experience, empathy, and expertise, David is a trusted guide for couples seeking healing and growth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dave Schramm (00:04):
On today's episode , dr Liz and I are joined by
David Jones and we dive into thedeep waters of betrayal trauma.
We talk about how and why it'sconsidered trauma when a partner
is unfaithful.
He then shares some helpfultips to provide hope and healing
for individuals and couples,and emphasizes that each journey
is different.
So is the healing process.
(00:26):
If you or a loved one has beenthrough this painful process, we
think you will find thisepisode very helpful.
David Jones is a licensedmarriage and family therapist
and owner of Secure ConnectionCounseling in St George, utah.
He's a certified emotionallyfocused couples therapist, an
AAMFT approved supervisor and anArmy Reserve chaplain.
(00:47):
His group practice focuses oncouples therapy, with a special
niche in helping couples recoverfrom betrayal.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey friends, welcome to anotherepisode of the Stronger
Marriage Connection podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity alongside Dr Liz Hill
(01:11):
, our therapist and psychologist.
We love bringing you the bestwe have in valid marital
research and resources and tipsand tools to help you create the
marriage of your dreams toolsto help you create the marriage
of your dreams.
All right, liz, I think it'sfair to say that all couples
enter marriage with anexpectation that they will be
able to trust the other person,trust them to meet certain needs
(01:34):
, that they'll be able todevelop that strong, faithful
relationship.
So what happens when a spouseor partner fails to meet those
needs, or if they even go out oftheir way to reject those needs
and betraying the trust oftheir partner?
Well, here to discuss moreabout betrayal trauma and how
you or a loved one can find hopeand healing following betrayal
(01:57):
trauma, is David Jones.
Marriage family therapist fromSt George.
Welcome to the show, davidJones.
David Jones (02:03):
Thank you, I'm glad to be here.
I've been a fan of the StrongReconnection podcast and
Marriage Commission for manyyears, so it's an honor to be
here.
Dave Schramm (02:10):
Yeah, we were talking about that earlier,
about the service that you havedone, kind of the path that you
have taken with military, andyou've been a strong supporter
of Utah Marriage Commission formany years, and even on its
board, yeah, several years ago.
So thank you, thanks for whatyou bring.
I know we're diving deep ratherinto a kind of a tough topic.
(02:32):
I think for some this can beone of the most painful
experiences, I think for bothpartners through this process.
So let's maybe start out with abig picture.
Can you define for ourlisteners exactly what happens
in betrayal, to make it a formof trauma?
David Jones (02:51):
Sure and to be a little bit more specific about
my work, the betrayal traumathat I'm usually referring to is
when there has been betrayalthrough infidelity, specifically
with emotional, sexual,physical infidelity or other
acting out behaviors such aspornography, use that goes
against one's values or was liedabout.
But betrayal trauma in generalcan be more broad than that.
(03:11):
It's defined as when one personhas kind of left the trust of a
relationship, and that canhappen with a parent, a close
friend, but, especially in thecontext of my work, in a
marriage or another committedrelationship.
And so when there is that trustthat's violated, it becomes a
trauma.
And the way that I definetrauma is simply this is that
(03:35):
it's an alteration of reality.
I thought I had this and thenit turns out it was this.
We can use that same definitionin so many contexts you
mentioned.
I'm in the military, a combatsurvivor.
I thought I had a safe worldand then I went to Vietnam or
Afghanistan and found out itwasn't.
It altered my view of the worldand of my safety, or somebody
(03:58):
who's experienced sexual assaultor sexual abuse.
I thought I had this and thenthat thing happened, or even a
natural disaster.
I thought I lived in a safe,had this and then that thing
happened, or even a naturaldisaster.
I thought I lived in a safeneighborhood and then that
hurricane swept through and Idon't feel safe.
Well, we can apply that samedefinition to intimate
relationships.
I thought I had a safe marriageor a safe committed partnership
, and then it turns out by mypartner betraying me, stepping
(04:21):
out.
Then it's not, and then thatalteration of reality becomes
very clinical in nature.
Frankly, it comes very close tothe same diagnostic criteria we
would use in the DSM forpost-traumatic stress disorder.
Dave Schramm (04:36):
I see, yeah, so I mean literally their whole world
can be shaken upside down.
It's like is real.
I thought that this was thisand now it's it's not and I just
feel, yeah, betrayed, and feelthat trauma, um broken.
I'm sure you've seen people attheir lowest of of lows mentally
(04:57):
, and probably suicidal and justall kinds of oh yeah for sure.
David Jones (05:02):
And and again, I like how you just said it I just
don't know my reality.
I don't.
Oh, yeah, this is, andespecially as betrayal often
accompanies deceit, oh, they'renever going to find out what
(05:26):
this is unless there's somereally serious interventions or
some turn.
And so it adds to the dilemmaof the bit of the trauma when
there's been betrayal, because Idon't even have a way to figure
out what this is.
I can't make sense of it,because I what I call the truth
has not been given to thatpartner it's got to to be that
whole blow up notion of like youor this.
Liz Hale (05:48):
This marriage is not what I thought it was.
You are not who I thought youwere.
David Jones (05:52):
Yeah, it's so upsetting.
Liz Hale (05:53):
I can think of a number of betrayals right Small,
medium, large and number oftraumas.
Even Tell us a bit more, david.
What makes betrayal traumaunique from other traumas,
please?
David Jones (06:05):
Yeah, well, first of all, I would never want to
get in the habit of comparingtraumas.
What's hard for me is going tobe hard for you and it might be
different.
You know, in the fieldsometimes we talk about trauma
with a big T and trauma with alowercase T.
I don't really do that.
I just think what's traumaticfor one person is traumatic for
them.
As an Army Reserve chaplain,I've worked with many soldiers
(06:25):
that have just been in thedepths of hell in their combat
experience, and so those arereally difficult and everybody's
experiencing somethingdifferent and, based on the
impact of that or their ownresilience, they're going to
experience it differently.
But here are some unique thingsabout betrayal trauma.
Again, if we're usingdiagnostic criteria from the DSM
(06:46):
, I'm always careful with how Ido that because I don't want to
diagnose somebody that doesn'tneed to be diagnosed.
But it gives us a good guidefor what a person's going
through when we're looking atthe symptoms.
Criteria A of betrayal trauma isexposure to an event that was
either life-threatening,sexually violent or
life-injurious.
Most people who haveexperienced betrayal trauma
(07:07):
can't really say that their lifeis threatened.
Most people say there hasn'tbeen sexual violence perpetrated
against them, although I haveseen that in some cases where
violent pornography was viewedand then it carried it on into
the bedroom, that has happened.
Most people can't say thatthere's been a physical injury
to themselves.
However, if there was an actualphysical sexual stepping out,
(07:28):
that can leave the marriage openfor STIs or STDs.
So there is a physical injury.
But everybody I talk to who hasexperienced betrayal trauma can
definitely describe anemotional injury or an
attachment injury, an injury tothe bond of their relationship
and the connection.
And so that's where we who workwith betrayal trauma when it
comes to infidelity, that'swhere we get that diagnostic
(07:51):
criteria.
Well, what makes it unique?
The long answer to your shortquestion what makes it unique is
if I have a combat survivor inmy office or a sexual assault
survivor in my office andthey're triggered and they're in
their stuff and they're back inVietnam or whatever, I can
usually reorient them with timeand space and say things like
hey, it's Monday, january 27th,you're in St George, you're no
(08:13):
longer there, and that usuallyhelps ground them and oh, by the
way, you don't have to go back.
That's a big thing.
When I'm working with a coupleand they're trying to heal from
their one-one partner's betrayal.
They might be sitting next tothe source of their trauma, they
might be holding that person'shand and they're about to get up
(08:35):
and leave my office and go livelife together and parent their
children and eat dinner andsleep and have sexual intimacy
together and all of those thingsare good in the context of what
they need for healing.
But it opens the doorsignificantly for re-exposure
and I think that's whatsignificantly sets apart
betrayal trauma from maybeothers is you can get re-exposed
so easily, especially if you'reworking on your relationship.
(08:58):
There's one more piece, if I canadd, that I think makes this
unique is the choice factor.
Marriage is a chosenrelationship as opposed to
siblings and parents.
Those are fixed.
If I choose to bring somebodyinto my life, that's really hard
for some people, maybe easierfor others.
But if I choose to bringsomebody into my life and they
betray me, I've had people justrun circles on that as how could
(09:20):
I do that to myself?
How could I let them in?
What's wrong with me, which is,by the way, another symptom of
trauma in the DSM.
Dave Schramm (09:26):
So I think those two things, the re-exposure- and
the choice factor made betrayaltrauma particularly difficult.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I do know a couple.
I'm not a therapist, but I doknow couples and friends and
people who've been throughexperienced this.
And sometimes you have theguilt factor on the person, like
why didn't I see this comment?
How could I be so stupid?
(09:47):
Or I I felt some thoughts or todo this or that, and so they
will, like emotionally, beatthemselves up because they feel
betrayed, but they feel so dumbin a way, is how they explain it
to me which is another symptomin the dsm.
David Jones (10:02):
Uh, criteria d is negative alterations in mood and
cognition.
So negative symptom in the DSMCriteria D is negative
alterations in mood andcognition.
So negative changes in thecognition is the way they view
themselves.
Sometimes you look at how dumbI am, how much of a fool was I
or I wasn't enough, and it justgets so complex because
sometimes the betrayal doesn'tnecessarily create that negative
(10:22):
thought.
It it confirms it for somepeople.
I already thought poorly ofmyself and then my partner
stepped up to me, you know, andso it just gets that that
criteria d1 is probably theharder one to to heal long term
because it reeks of reeks oflike real core beliefs.
Dave Schramm (10:39):
Wow, yeah, this is again, yeah, pretty heavy,
heavy topic from this.
You work, uh, with a lot ofcouples, individuals, couples uh
, trying to help them find hopeand healing through that
betrayal trauma.
What have you found Can youalmost walk us through some
helpful tips, some examples ofwhat you do to help couples heal
(11:00):
from it?
And what does that look likefrom each partner's perspective?
Right from it?
And what does that look likefrom each partner's perspective
right, because the couples thatI know who are trying to make it
work the one who betrayed andhad these sexual affairs is
beating himself or herself up aswell, so they both are
experiencing some pain.
What have you found that'shelpful?
David Jones (11:22):
Yeah, sure.
So again, the larger context inwhich I work is with couples
who are trying to heal.
I do work with some individuals, but generally I'm a marriage
therapist and so that's mostlywhat I do.
But I use a metaphor that,first of all, that affairs and
if we're talking specificallyaffairs or other sexual betrayal
, it's like a fire in the house.
It's like the big flaming thingthat's going to kill us if we
(11:42):
don't get those flames out.
It's like the big flaming thingthat's going to kill us if we
don't get those flames out.
It doesn't mean that the housedidn't already have some
problems.
Maybe there was bad plumbing,maybe there was bad electrical
that contributed to the fire,which happens.
Maybe there was a badfoundation to begin with.
But I'm not going to go into aburning house and try to work on
plumbing.
So we have to kind of triagethe treatment and so what that
(12:03):
means maybe for the partner.
If you did the betrayal, theygot to wait their turn a little
bit.
I want to get to them.
I want to get to the plumbingissues that maybe they have in
the house, because those arevery real for them and if I
ignore those I'm not going tohave engagement.
But I have to work on the firefirst and that's normally
helping with some of the traumatype symptoms that come with the
(12:25):
betrayed partner.
So that's kind of a keyprinciple for me.
As we work in time we can getto some of the other things that
may be contributed to the fire.
But often there's relationaldynamics or intrapersonal
dynamics or other things thatneed to be in attention to if
(12:46):
we're going to have long-termhealing.
So I think that's an importantthing first.
But I found and I love myclients because I've learned
this from them what they needand they've helped construct.
The model that I use is I usewhat's called three legs of the
same stool and you've probablyheard a metaphor like that that
if you have a stool, it only hasone or two legs.
(13:06):
It's not going to support youvery well.
So if we have this stool that'sholding up our healing or our
recovery, we've got to have allthree legs.
And I can go into great detailon these, but I'll just go over
them quickly.
The first leg is boundaries.
We have to have boundaries inthe relationship and outside the
relationship that keep therelationship safe.
Boundaries are physical,communicative, sexual, physical
(13:30):
walls that we put up that helpkeep us safe.
Now here's the difficulty withthat.
I'm a marriage therapist.
I really don't like boundariesbecause we're putting up walls
between the two people I'mtrying to connect.
I also recognize that they'renecessary.
So I've added to the boundaryconcept a little bit that I have
a block wall around my house.
It keeps my dogs and my kidsand notice the order of that my
(13:53):
dogs and my kids.
It keeps everything in myproperty safe and it keeps
people out.
I have three gates.
I can open up and close thosegates anytime I want to.
So I really have to helpcouples with that sometimes.
Sometimes we've got can open upand close those gates anytime I
want to.
So I really have to helpcouples with that sometimes.
And sometimes we've got to openup gates if we're going to
connect, we can shut themquickly if we need to, but let's
risk a little bit and open upthose gates.
(14:14):
So boundaries are just aboutwalls.
They're about walls and gates.
So that's thing number one thatI found.
You want me to keep going tonumber two and three.
Okay, number two is kind of atwofer is for the individuals
individual coping skills andself-care.
Those are two things.
Coping skills is kind of forthe reactive times, maybe, when
(14:35):
a person has a trauma triggerand they need to get through
that.
So that's helping the personwith breathing, mindfulness,
parks, work, resourcing them,their spiritual practices,
whatever it is that they mighthave, that they can get through
a tough moment.
That's the coping skills.
Self-care is more aboutproactivity.
What am I going to do to justlive a healthy life?
(14:58):
That's things like diet,nutrition, sleep, exercise,
having a hobby, having somethingto look forward to.
I'm a big believer that youalways have to have something to
look forward to.
It can be big or small, buthelping resource them with those
.
How do I just live a good life?
Sometimes people were living areally good, healthy life and
then this trauma knocked themoff their rock a little bit.
(15:20):
So we have to pick that up.
A lot of times people weren't,and so that's a resilience
factor that we have to helpbuild.
That for them to heal, that'snumber two, and the third leg is
my favorite, honestly isconnections is that people have
to have good people and andresources in their life in order
for them to heal, so that'sfriends, family members,
(15:43):
communities, spiritualcommunities and so on that they
can reach out.
Now here's the metric for that,because that can get a little
bit dangerous.
You have good people in yourlife who want you to heal.
They could be very biased, theycould say things like you
shouldn't have to put up withthat and the truth is you
shouldn't but if you're workingon a marriage, that's not
(16:05):
helpful, and so I tell peopleyou have to have people who are
marriage friendly or at leastmarriage neutral, that you reach
out to.
The final option that I wantpeople to work with, if I'm
working with their relationship,is each other, and that gets
messy because I'm trying to haveyou again open up a gate to
somebody that's caused some painin you.
Well, we'll close it when weneed to, but can we risk a
(16:27):
little bit and open it up, andthat's going to be how we heal
the relationship and the processas well.
So three legs of the stoolboundaries, individual coping
skills and self-care andconnections.
That's how I learned from myclients that have been helpful
for them.
So that's what I do witheverybody I love that We'll be
right back after this briefmessage.
Dave Schramm (16:59):
And we're back, let's dive right in.
And we're back, let's diveright in.
Can I follow up on that lastone on the connections?
And I'm again.
Every situation is going to bedifferent.
There's not a cookie cutter forany of this.
I know some people who are likeno, you know, it's embarrassing
, I'm not going to tell a familyfriend, I'm not going to tell
(17:20):
anyone, and you know I justgoing to be us or you know, and
another couple that I'm kind,kind of his.
I'll just check in right oncein a while.
He's there seeing a therapisthere in town and things are
going, um, pretty good.
But I'm more kind of thecheck-in, um, and I don't pry or
anything.
But I feel like I'm playingthat kind of a supportive role
and you know she's aware of thatand everything.
Any thoughts on you know who totell or how much to tell, or to
(17:43):
share any of this with.
David Jones (17:45):
Yeah, I think a good phrase that I think I
learned from a colleague onceupon a time is that you let in
people who have earned the rightto know, and so that's a trust
factor for sure, and oftentimes,sadly, you'll think that a
person has earned the right toknow, so you'll let them in.
You'll find out quickly thatthey weren't the right people,
so then you put up that boundarywith them.
But you speak to a really goodpoint, because either the
(18:09):
betraying partner or thebetrayed partner and they both
need support, let's make nobones about that they both need
feeling too ashamed to open up,or they worry that it's going to
be too judgmental or theirreligious community is going to
shame them or something, and sowe have to figure that out
somehow.
I love a lot of the supportgroups that we have in the
community.
(18:29):
That can be a place ofnon-judgment and shame.
There can always be nuance tothat.
But even something likeasynchronous finding a Facebook
group or another onlinecommunity that can help you
connect, finding a Facebookgroup or another online
community that can help youconnect you can be anonymous.
In that Everything has its risk, because you might find people
who, again, are not marriagefriendly.
They've had their own pain thatthey can't see that somebody
(18:52):
else could potentially get pastthis.
We have to be very careful andmake some assessments about that
.
But there can be other ways toconnect.
Even if we can can't do it likeone-on-one with someone, it's
harder.
It's harder if you can't findsomebody that you can look in
the eye and be in pain, but it'spossible.
A therapist can be that way.
Dave Schramm (19:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
David Jones (19:16):
And I like.
Liz Hale (19:16):
That question you were proposing, Dave, is how do we
be those good support people?
David, do you have just acouple thoughts on how can I be
a good support to my friends whomight be going through that?
David Jones (19:27):
Most important thing is a place of non-judgment
, because people are going tomake decisions for or against
their marriage based on whatthey need, and even if we aren't
necessarily on board with theirdecisions, we recognize that
their decisions are theirdecisions.
You might be really close tosomebody that has experienced
(19:48):
betrayal and because of thatyou're feeling your own pain,
and so it's hard for you to beaccepting of the idea that maybe
they want their marriage towork Well.
That's their decision, and toat least be marriage neutral is
a really, really good place andI'm using the word marriage
anonymously because I work witha lot of couples who are in
other intimate forms ofrelationships.
But maybe they want to be andmaybe they have kids, maybe they
(20:10):
have all kinds of reasons thatthey're in that relationship,
and to be a place of marriage isprobably the most engaging.
Liz Hale (20:17):
I guess my question too is how do I be a good
support without kind of gettingin the mire of it?
I don't want to be a therapistto this couple.
I'm thinking of a particularcouple.
I want to be their friend, butthey kind of like to rope in
friends right, Especially whenyou're a therapist.
They want to get your take onit.
Yeah, how do I avoid that?
David Jones (20:38):
Yeah, I think you're probably speaking to the
boundaries concept again, liz,we've got to put up a wall, but
we can put up a gate.
I'm not going to expose mywhole property, so to speak, but
I'm going to let little bits ofinformation Sometimes that's
with crucial, difficultconversations like I'd really
love to help you with more ofthis.
I am here for you, but I can'tget in the middle of it and
(21:01):
maybe it's because I care aboutboth of you, maybe it's because
I don't have the time toemotionally invest in this, and
then that's going to keep youhanging.
So, speaking communicativelywith the boundary and saying I'm
here for this and this, I'dlove to take you to dinner.
I'll be a sounding board foryou.
But if I started to get realdeal, I'm going to probably have
to step back a little bit andbe the place that I can be for
(21:22):
you.
Liz Hale (21:25):
That's well said.
I love.
We love the message, David,that couples really do recover
from this type of betrayal.
Can you share some stories ofhealing what that looks like?
We realize, like Dave's point,every couple, every journey is
different, without a specifictime frame.
Is that right?
David Jones (21:43):
Oh, yeah, for sure and just first of all,
unequivocally yes, people canrecover from this.
That's what excites me mostabout doing this work.
It's hard work.
People ask me all the time howdo I do it?
And it's because I get chargedand recharged by seeing people
recover it happens every week onmy couch and recharged by
(22:03):
seeing people recover.
It happens every week on mycouch.
It's going to take a lot ofwork, a lot of highs, a lot of
lows, a lot of roller coaster,but it's possible.
It's worth every effort andeven if, in the end, the
marriage doesn't survive, theeffort is worth it.
So I very much believe that.
But the healing looks like formost couples.
(22:27):
The healing really looks likeincreased vulnerability that
we're able to open up to eachother, and I learned so much
from my couples.
So that's what I love aboutdoing this work, because they
teach me so much.
The one couple in particularthat I'm thinking of was
significant in its presentationabout the way the one partner
acted out, but what that endedup looking like for them and
their journey is that they couldreally be open and vulnerable
(22:47):
with each other about all things.
He could tell her after doingall of the most nefarious things
that you could ever imagine.
He could turn to her and tellher I can't believe I did that.
Sometimes I feel tempted to doit again.
He could tell her that andthat's a significant
vulnerability.
It would be hard for her butit's better than him just not
(23:09):
telling her and going out anddoing it again.
She could tell him about hernegative alterations in the way
that she believed in herself.
This was so hard for me I don'teven think I'm worth it anymore
.
I don't think I matter to you,but those are really hard things
to share.
But if you can do that and havethat be a safe, nonjudgmental
place, that's what healing wouldlike for that couple and,
(23:31):
generally speaking, that's whateverybody needs is the ability
to be open and vulnerable witheach other about what they're
experiencing on both sides ofthe issue.
You mentioned timeframe, andtimeframe is hard.
I mean, most couples are goingto be years into recovery,
whatever that looks like.
That might be years in therapy,that might be years of doing
(23:52):
their own work, but it takes along time and oftentimes I'll
ask I'll have couples how longis this going to take?
They'll ask that question andI'll say something like well,
how long was he looking atpornography?
Well, for 10 years.
Well, it might take 10 years.
I don't really believe thatnecessarily, but I want to give
them perspective that it's goingto take them a little while.
(24:15):
But one of the things about thetimeline takes us back to the
concept of trauma.
Trauma itself is kind of thisomnipresent thing.
It doesn't have a timeline.
A traumatic trigger right nowbrings up all of the stuff from
the past, totally messes withour view of safety about the
future and it's happening rightnow and that's an important
thing to realize.
(24:36):
That's one thing that setstrauma apart perhaps is I'm
feeling this omnipresence ofeverything right now, and so
oftentimes I'll understandablyhave both partners say things
like why can't we just get pastthis?
Why can't I get over this?
Well, those are statements ofpast.
Past doesn't exist in atraumatic moment.
It's all in one singular moment.
(24:57):
So the right word is how can Iheal?
And healing is going to take along time.
If I have a physical wound onmy body, a cut or something, my
body's generally healthy enoughand it will heal over time.
If I add treatment to thatwound, keep it clean, put some
Neosporin on it, a Band-Aid itwill heal faster.
So time plus treatment is thefactor there, but I'd really say
(25:21):
how long.
Usually a while, though.
But I'd really say how longusually a while, though.
Liz Hale (25:26):
Well, can I ask you?
Sometimes I will cautioncouples against quick
forgiveness.
Do you do that as well?
Can you just make a commentabout that please?
David Jones (25:36):
Well, sure, and I think we can borrow a lot from
the work of, like Scott Stanleyand Howard Markman with their
prevention and relationshipenhancement program, orep.
They do a great module onforgiveness, what forgiveness is
and what forgiveness isn't, andso helping couples understand
that forgiveness doesn't equaltrust.
Trust is something that'searned over time.
(25:57):
Forgiveness does not equalcondoning of bad behavior.
Forgiveness doesn't mean allthe pain is gone.
Forgiveness doesn't mean therearen't consequences to things.
So recognizing that forgivenessis actually separate from some
of those things, because I thinkwe get them mixed up in our
head.
Forgiveness is letting go of thebelief that you owe me
something, that there's somesort of transaction that still
(26:17):
has to happen.
We can look at that financially.
If I forgive a debt, you don'towe me that anymore.
So I think that's thing one ishelping people understand
forgiveness, but especiallyhelping people not go too fast
with it, because they might havea Judeo-Christian spiritual
belief about it, which Isubscribe.
I think it's part of theprocess forgive way too quickly
(26:45):
and then they're just going to,then they're that what they're
probably going to do is deny anyefforts that they need to still
have given or that they need todo themselves for healing.
Dave Schramm (26:53):
Thank you, yeah, david, I'm curious what the
process looks like.
Um, if the marriage is is notintact, I'm sure affairs result
in many separations, divorces.
Can one heal from betrayal,trauma from that?
Does that process lookdifferent?
David Jones (27:11):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think for me it involves
the same three legs of the stool.
It just might look a little bitdifferent because if a partner
has, if the marriagerelationship is no longer viable
and the marriage relationshipends, then that's probably
stronger boundaries that need tohappen with that person.
It's going to be more wallsthan gates and the connections
(27:34):
portion of it is going to lookdifferent because it's arguably
not appropriate or not healthyor not safe to use that partner
as a connection resource.
So we just have to modify whatthey need for that individual.
But I still think it needs thesame things boundaries,
interpersonal or, excuse me,individual coping skills and
self-care and connections.
In fact, just tonight here inmy practice we're starting a
(27:57):
betrayal trauma group based onthat model and I know those that
are in the group are in alldifferent situations.
Some are no longer in therelationship, some are working
on their relationship.
We're going to have that in amixed group.
It's going to be a wild routebut I think the factors still
apply to all situations.
Dave Schramm (28:14):
Yeah, okay, thank you.
Liz Hale (28:16):
Great and I would love to hear more about your
practice as well, the secureconnection, counseling and say,
george, do you see groups online, individuals online, and where
can listeners find out moreabout you and your resources?
David Jones (28:28):
David, yeah sure, secure Connection Counseling.
We're a clinic in St George,Utah.
It's myself and I've got five,six practitioners that work for
me.
All of us are formally trainedin Emotionally Focused Therapy
or EFT, which is my favoriteform of therapy by far.
It's the gold standard incouples therapy according to the
APA, and so we take that veryseriously that we need to have
(28:53):
strong connections, strongattachments, secure attachments
in our life.
We see individuals and couplesin our practice.
Our caseload is probably about80% couples.
The rest are going to beindividuals and some families,
and we do see people online aswell, and people can find us at
(29:13):
secureconnectioncounselingcom.
Okay.
Liz Hale (29:15):
Thank you Wonderful.
Dave Schramm (29:17):
Yeah, we'll be sure to put that link in our
show notes for our listeners aswell.
Let me ask you, david, in honorof the name of our podcast,
stronger Marriage Connection inall of your personal, your
professional experience and it'shard to do this right To boil
things down to one key, but isthere a key that you feel like
(29:38):
is essential for a strongermarriage connection?
David Jones (29:41):
Well, I could talk about this all day so it is hard
to boil it down, but I'll justemphasize the importance of that
phrase stronger connection asan emotionally focused therapist
.
Eft is rooted in attachmenttheory, which says that we do
better in our life when we havestrong connections, and it goes
as far as saying that there areneeds.
(30:01):
It's not just a nice to have.
We need strong connections inour life and unfortunately I
think people in our field havepathologized that too much, that
it's something bad or wrong foryou to need another person in
your life.
And so EFT especially helpstake away that stigma that it's
okay and necessary for us tohave strong connections in our
(30:21):
life.
So I applaud the title of theprogram.
It fits specifically with myphilosophy about things.
But I think the key to havingthose stronger connections
really boils down to emotionalsafety.
In AFT we're trying to helpcouples create stronger
attachments and stronger bondsby getting to the emotions that
(30:41):
are underneath the patterns andcycles that they've established
in their relationship.
One partner's pursuit trying toget their partner to open up is
rooted in fear that if I don'tget them to open up they won't
love me and I'm going to lose myrelationship.
One partner's withdrawal in therelationship is rooted maybe in
a fear of not being enough fortheir relationship and partner,
(31:03):
and so they don't know what todo, so they just shut down.
And so when we pay attention tothose fears, it reframes it
significantly.
If I'm scared that you don'tlove me, that means you matter
to me.
And so when we start to reframethat, it starts to change the
nature of it by going to theemotion.
So when we can getvulnerability in those deeper
emotions, that breeds strongerconnection.
Dave Schramm (31:24):
I love it.
Yeah, emotional safetyEssential.
Yeah, thanks so much, david.
As we wrap things up, we callit a takeaway of the day.
Is there a message that youhope our listeners will remember
from our discussion today?
David Jones (31:39):
Sure, I think probably two.
The first is that betrayaltrauma is trauma.
It might not meet the clinicalcriteria for PTSD that's not
what we're going for necessarilybut it is trauma, it is an
alteration of reality and whenwe understand that, when I
really started to understandthat clinically, it changed the
nature of the way I treat myindividuals and my couples,
(32:01):
because it's this thing thathappened to them, not this what
they are, because that's whatthey're telling them.
But I think the second thingthat's most important is that
healing is possible.
It absolutely is possible.
Whether that's healing in yourindividual life and you no
longer have a viablerelationship, and especially
healing in your relationship,that is very much possible.
(32:24):
I recognize that that doesn'thappen for everybody and that's
a tragedy and that deserves itsown focus and specialty and care
.
But it's possible both waysaround.
Dave Schramm (32:35):
Yeah, wonderful, love it, liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway today?
Liz Hale (32:38):
Those are great takeaways, David.
You know I love this idea thatforgiveness does not necessarily
mean trust.
I mean, when I look at just theword forgiving, I separate it
out.
It's for giving myself a gift,right, Even as a betrayed
partner, I don't have to hang onto this bitterness.
It doesn't necessarily meanthat trust has been earned,
because you can't earn itquickly and I just love that
(33:01):
there's still.
I don't love this, but thehonoring that there's can be
forgiveness, and still pain andstill consequence.
Or you know, I really need this.
I often say to my clients youknow, I can't do for your
partner, but you can do for them, right?
This is really where thehealing comes in, and vice versa
.
I think that's the ultimategoal, and gift of marriage is is
(33:22):
really that mutual healing.
So, Dave, what about you?
What struck you most today?
Dave Schramm (33:28):
Yeah, that's been really insightful.
Thanks, david.
A lot of things have stuck out.
I love the stool analogy inthat second peg that you talk
about.
That it's really self-care isnot selfish, you know, it's
making time, taking time for me,and it may not be like a okay,
that a spa day or something, butit really is like okay, I need
(33:50):
to make sure I'm in a good place, right, so I can, so I can take
care of others, I can make surethat I'm I'm okay and I can
think straight and processthings and reaching out to
others, the connections, thatthird, that third leg in that
stool.
So I I really like that umbeing able to and and every
situation is different.
That also stood out to me, thatevery single case there may be
(34:12):
some commonalities right acrossa betrayal trauma, but every
story is unique and different,uh, and painful, I think, across
the board.
Um, so there's not a set timeframe for the healing and the
hope and that journey.
So super helpful.
(34:32):
David, thank you so much formaking time to join us today.
David Jones (34:35):
You bet, and again, it is a heavy topic, a
necessary topic, but I hope themessage that comes through the
listeners is there is hope.
So thank you, it's been aprivilege to be with you.
Dave Schramm (34:46):
Yeah, yeah, thanks so much.
Liz Hale (34:48):
I guess there's hope, whether we stay married or
whether we continue on.
True, I mean, yeah, I can't.
We can't wait to bring you backand to talk about remarriage.
It's just going to be a delightand and this, this wonderful
job you and your wife have donein blending a family and living
to tell about the good of secondmarriage and blended family.
(35:10):
It's beautiful.
Dave Schramm (35:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll have you on again, my
friend.
Thanks so much for making timeagain, david.
We sure appreciate you and wewill see you next time on
another episode of the StrongerMarriage Connection podcast.
And remember, friends, it's thesmall things that create a
(35:38):
stronger marriage connection.
Take good care of you and eachother.
At Utah Marriage Commission,where you can watch this and
every episode of the show, besure to smash the like button,
leave a comment and share thisepisode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
(35:58):
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved, which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
(36:20):
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity, and you, our
audience.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
On today's episode , dr Liz and I are joined by
David Jones and we dive into thedeep waters of betrayal trauma.
We talk about how and why it'sconsidered trauma when a partner
is unfaithful.
He then shares some helpfultips to provide hope and healing
for individuals and couples,and emphasizes that each journey
is different.
So is the healing process.
(00:26):
If you or a loved one has beenthrough this painful process, we
think you will find thisepisode very helpful.
David Jones is a licensedmarriage and family therapist
and owner of Secure ConnectionCounseling in St George, utah.
He's a certified emotionallyfocused couples therapist, an
AAMFT approved supervisor and anArmy Reserve chaplain.
(00:47):
His group practice focuses oncouples therapy, with a special
niche in helping couples recoverfrom betrayal.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey friends, welcome to anotherepisode of the Stronger
Marriage Connection podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity alongside Dr Liz Hill
(01:11):
, our therapist and psychologist.
We love bringing you the bestwe have in valid marital
research and resources and tipsand tools to help you create the
marriage of your dreams toolsto help you create the marriage
of your dreams.
All right, liz, I think it'sfair to say that all couples
enter marriage with anexpectation that they will be
able to trust the other person,trust them to meet certain needs
(01:34):
, that they'll be able todevelop that strong, faithful
relationship.
So what happens when a spouseor partner fails to meet those
needs, or if they even go out oftheir way to reject those needs
and betraying the trust oftheir partner?
Well, here to discuss moreabout betrayal trauma and how
you or a loved one can find hopeand healing following betrayal
(01:57):
trauma, is David Jones.
Marriage family therapist fromSt George.
Welcome to the show, davidJones.
David Jones (02:03):
Thank you, I'm glad to be here.
I've been a fan of the StrongReconnection podcast and
Marriage Commission for manyyears, so it's an honor to be
here.
Dave Schramm (02:10):
Yeah, we were talking about that earlier,
about the service that you havedone, kind of the path that you
have taken with military, andyou've been a strong supporter
of Utah Marriage Commission formany years, and even on its
board, yeah, several years ago.
So thank you, thanks for whatyou bring.
I know we're diving deep ratherinto a kind of a tough topic.
(02:32):
I think for some this can beone of the most painful
experiences, I think for bothpartners through this process.
So let's maybe start out with abig picture.
Can you define for ourlisteners exactly what happens
in betrayal, to make it a formof trauma?
David Jones (02:51):
Sure and to be a little bit more specific about
my work, the betrayal traumathat I'm usually referring to is
when there has been betrayalthrough infidelity, specifically
with emotional, sexual,physical infidelity or other
acting out behaviors such aspornography, use that goes
against one's values or was liedabout.
But betrayal trauma in generalcan be more broad than that.
(03:11):
It's defined as when one personhas kind of left the trust of a
relationship, and that canhappen with a parent, a close
friend, but, especially in thecontext of my work, in a
marriage or another committedrelationship.
And so when there is that trustthat's violated, it becomes a
trauma.
And the way that I definetrauma is simply this is that
(03:35):
it's an alteration of reality.
I thought I had this and thenit turns out it was this.
We can use that same definitionin so many contexts you
mentioned.
I'm in the military, a combatsurvivor.
I thought I had a safe worldand then I went to Vietnam or
Afghanistan and found out itwasn't.
It altered my view of the worldand of my safety, or somebody
(03:58):
who's experienced sexual assaultor sexual abuse.
I thought I had this and thenthat thing happened, or even a
natural disaster.
I thought I lived in a safe,had this and then that thing
happened, or even a naturaldisaster.
I thought I lived in a safeneighborhood and then that
hurricane swept through and Idon't feel safe.
Well, we can apply that samedefinition to intimate
relationships.
I thought I had a safe marriageor a safe committed partnership
, and then it turns out by mypartner betraying me, stepping
(04:21):
out.
Then it's not, and then thatalteration of reality becomes
very clinical in nature.
Frankly, it comes very close tothe same diagnostic criteria we
would use in the DSM forpost-traumatic stress disorder.
Dave Schramm (04:36):
I see, yeah, so I mean literally their whole world
can be shaken upside down.
It's like is real.
I thought that this was thisand now it's it's not and I just
feel, yeah, betrayed, and feelthat trauma, um broken.
I'm sure you've seen people attheir lowest of of lows mentally
(04:57):
, and probably suicidal and justall kinds of oh yeah for sure.
David Jones (05:02):
And and again, I like how you just said it I just
don't know my reality.
I don't.
Oh, yeah, this is, andespecially as betrayal often
accompanies deceit, oh, they'renever going to find out what
(05:26):
this is unless there's somereally serious interventions or
some turn.
And so it adds to the dilemmaof the bit of the trauma when
there's been betrayal, because Idon't even have a way to figure
out what this is.
I can't make sense of it,because I what I call the truth
has not been given to thatpartner it's got to to be that
whole blow up notion of like youor this.
Liz Hale (05:48):
This marriage is not what I thought it was.
You are not who I thought youwere.
David Jones (05:52):
Yeah, it's so upsetting.
Liz Hale (05:53):
I can think of a number of betrayals right Small,
medium, large and number oftraumas.
Even Tell us a bit more, david.
What makes betrayal traumaunique from other traumas,
please?
David Jones (06:05):
Yeah, well, first of all, I would never want to
get in the habit of comparingtraumas.
What's hard for me is going tobe hard for you and it might be
different.
You know, in the fieldsometimes we talk about trauma
with a big T and trauma with alowercase T.
I don't really do that.
I just think what's traumaticfor one person is traumatic for
them.
As an Army Reserve chaplain,I've worked with many soldiers
(06:25):
that have just been in thedepths of hell in their combat
experience, and so those arereally difficult and everybody's
experiencing somethingdifferent and, based on the
impact of that or their ownresilience, they're going to
experience it differently.
But here are some unique thingsabout betrayal trauma.
Again, if we're usingdiagnostic criteria from the DSM
(06:46):
, I'm always careful with how Ido that because I don't want to
diagnose somebody that doesn'tneed to be diagnosed.
But it gives us a good guidefor what a person's going
through when we're looking atthe symptoms.
Criteria A of betrayal trauma isexposure to an event that was
either life-threatening,sexually violent or
life-injurious.
Most people who haveexperienced betrayal trauma
(07:07):
can't really say that their lifeis threatened.
Most people say there hasn'tbeen sexual violence perpetrated
against them, although I haveseen that in some cases where
violent pornography was viewedand then it carried it on into
the bedroom, that has happened.
Most people can't say thatthere's been a physical injury
to themselves.
However, if there was an actualphysical sexual stepping out,
(07:28):
that can leave the marriage openfor STIs or STDs.
So there is a physical injury.
But everybody I talk to who hasexperienced betrayal trauma can
definitely describe anemotional injury or an
attachment injury, an injury tothe bond of their relationship
and the connection.
And so that's where we who workwith betrayal trauma when it
comes to infidelity, that'swhere we get that diagnostic
(07:51):
criteria.
Well, what makes it unique?
The long answer to your shortquestion what makes it unique is
if I have a combat survivor inmy office or a sexual assault
survivor in my office andthey're triggered and they're in
their stuff and they're back inVietnam or whatever, I can
usually reorient them with timeand space and say things like
hey, it's Monday, january 27th,you're in St George, you're no
(08:13):
longer there, and that usuallyhelps ground them and oh, by the
way, you don't have to go back.
That's a big thing.
When I'm working with a coupleand they're trying to heal from
their one-one partner's betrayal.
They might be sitting next tothe source of their trauma, they
might be holding that person'shand and they're about to get up
(08:35):
and leave my office and go livelife together and parent their
children and eat dinner andsleep and have sexual intimacy
together and all of those thingsare good in the context of what
they need for healing.
But it opens the doorsignificantly for re-exposure
and I think that's whatsignificantly sets apart
betrayal trauma from maybeothers is you can get re-exposed
so easily, especially if you'reworking on your relationship.
(08:58):
There's one more piece, if I canadd, that I think makes this
unique is the choice factor.
Marriage is a chosenrelationship as opposed to
siblings and parents.
Those are fixed.
If I choose to bring somebodyinto my life, that's really hard
for some people, maybe easierfor others.
But if I choose to bringsomebody into my life and they
betray me, I've had people justrun circles on that as how could
(09:20):
I do that to myself?
How could I let them in?
What's wrong with me, which is,by the way, another symptom of
trauma in the DSM.
Dave Schramm (09:26):
So I think those two things, the re-exposure- and
the choice factor made betrayaltrauma particularly difficult.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I do know a couple.
I'm not a therapist, but I doknow couples and friends and
people who've been throughexperienced this.
And sometimes you have theguilt factor on the person, like
why didn't I see this comment?
How could I be so stupid?
(09:47):
Or I I felt some thoughts or todo this or that, and so they
will, like emotionally, beatthemselves up because they feel
betrayed, but they feel so dumbin a way, is how they explain it
to me which is another symptomin the dsm.
David Jones (10:02):
Uh, criteria d is negative alterations in mood and
cognition.
So negative symptom in the DSMCriteria D is negative
alterations in mood andcognition.
So negative changes in thecognition is the way they view
themselves.
Sometimes you look at how dumbI am, how much of a fool was I
or I wasn't enough, and it justgets so complex because
sometimes the betrayal doesn'tnecessarily create that negative
(10:22):
thought.
It it confirms it for somepeople.
I already thought poorly ofmyself and then my partner
stepped up to me, you know, andso it just gets that that
criteria d1 is probably theharder one to to heal long term
because it reeks of reeks oflike real core beliefs.
Dave Schramm (10:39):
Wow, yeah, this is again, yeah, pretty heavy,
heavy topic from this.
You work, uh, with a lot ofcouples, individuals, couples uh
, trying to help them find hopeand healing through that
betrayal trauma.
What have you found Can youalmost walk us through some
helpful tips, some examples ofwhat you do to help couples heal
(11:00):
from it?
And what does that look likefrom each partner's perspective?
Right from it?
And what does that look likefrom each partner's perspective
right, because the couples thatI know who are trying to make it
work the one who betrayed andhad these sexual affairs is
beating himself or herself up aswell, so they both are
experiencing some pain.
What have you found that'shelpful?
David Jones (11:22):
Yeah, sure.
So again, the larger context inwhich I work is with couples
who are trying to heal.
I do work with some individuals, but generally I'm a marriage
therapist and so that's mostlywhat I do.
But I use a metaphor that,first of all, that affairs and
if we're talking specificallyaffairs or other sexual betrayal
, it's like a fire in the house.
It's like the big flaming thingthat's going to kill us if we
(11:42):
don't get those flames out.
It's like the big flaming thingthat's going to kill us if we
don't get those flames out.
It doesn't mean that the housedidn't already have some
problems.
Maybe there was bad plumbing,maybe there was bad electrical
that contributed to the fire,which happens.
Maybe there was a badfoundation to begin with.
But I'm not going to go into aburning house and try to work on
plumbing.
So we have to kind of triagethe treatment and so what that
(12:03):
means maybe for the partner.
If you did the betrayal, theygot to wait their turn a little
bit.
I want to get to them.
I want to get to the plumbingissues that maybe they have in
the house, because those arevery real for them and if I
ignore those I'm not going tohave engagement.
But I have to work on the firefirst and that's normally
helping with some of the traumatype symptoms that come with the
(12:25):
betrayed partner.
So that's kind of a keyprinciple for me.
As we work in time we can getto some of the other things that
may be contributed to the fire.
But often there's relationaldynamics or intrapersonal
dynamics or other things thatneed to be in attention to if
(12:46):
we're going to have long-termhealing.
So I think that's an importantthing first.
But I found and I love myclients because I've learned
this from them what they needand they've helped construct.
The model that I use is I usewhat's called three legs of the
same stool and you've probablyheard a metaphor like that that
if you have a stool, it only hasone or two legs.
(13:06):
It's not going to support youvery well.
So if we have this stool that'sholding up our healing or our
recovery, we've got to have allthree legs.
And I can go into great detailon these, but I'll just go over
them quickly.
The first leg is boundaries.
We have to have boundaries inthe relationship and outside the
relationship that keep therelationship safe.
Boundaries are physical,communicative, sexual, physical
(13:30):
walls that we put up that helpkeep us safe.
Now here's the difficulty withthat.
I'm a marriage therapist.
I really don't like boundariesbecause we're putting up walls
between the two people I'mtrying to connect.
I also recognize that they'renecessary.
So I've added to the boundaryconcept a little bit that I have
a block wall around my house.
It keeps my dogs and my kidsand notice the order of that my
(13:53):
dogs and my kids.
It keeps everything in myproperty safe and it keeps
people out.
I have three gates.
I can open up and close thosegates anytime I want to.
So I really have to helpcouples with that sometimes.
Sometimes we've got can open upand close those gates anytime I
want to.
So I really have to helpcouples with that sometimes.
And sometimes we've got to openup gates if we're going to
connect, we can shut themquickly if we need to, but let's
risk a little bit and open upthose gates.
(14:14):
So boundaries are just aboutwalls.
They're about walls and gates.
So that's thing number one thatI found.
You want me to keep going tonumber two and three.
Okay, number two is kind of atwofer is for the individuals
individual coping skills andself-care.
Those are two things.
Coping skills is kind of forthe reactive times, maybe, when
(14:35):
a person has a trauma triggerand they need to get through
that.
So that's helping the personwith breathing, mindfulness,
parks, work, resourcing them,their spiritual practices,
whatever it is that they mighthave, that they can get through
a tough moment.
That's the coping skills.
Self-care is more aboutproactivity.
What am I going to do to justlive a healthy life?
(14:58):
That's things like diet,nutrition, sleep, exercise,
having a hobby, having somethingto look forward to.
I'm a big believer that youalways have to have something to
look forward to.
It can be big or small, buthelping resource them with those
.
How do I just live a good life?
Sometimes people were living areally good, healthy life and
then this trauma knocked themoff their rock a little bit.
(15:20):
So we have to pick that up.
A lot of times people weren't,and so that's a resilience
factor that we have to helpbuild.
That for them to heal, that'snumber two, and the third leg is
my favorite, honestly isconnections is that people have
to have good people and andresources in their life in order
for them to heal, so that'sfriends, family members,
(15:43):
communities, spiritualcommunities and so on that they
can reach out.
Now here's the metric for that,because that can get a little
bit dangerous.
You have good people in yourlife who want you to heal.
They could be very biased, theycould say things like you
shouldn't have to put up withthat and the truth is you
shouldn't but if you're workingon a marriage, that's not
(16:05):
helpful, and so I tell peopleyou have to have people who are
marriage friendly or at leastmarriage neutral, that you reach
out to.
The final option that I wantpeople to work with, if I'm
working with their relationship,is each other, and that gets
messy because I'm trying to haveyou again open up a gate to
somebody that's caused some painin you.
Well, we'll close it when weneed to, but can we risk a
(16:27):
little bit and open it up, andthat's going to be how we heal
the relationship and the processas well.
So three legs of the stoolboundaries, individual coping
skills and self-care andconnections.
That's how I learned from myclients that have been helpful
for them.
So that's what I do witheverybody I love that We'll be
right back after this briefmessage.
Dave Schramm (16:59):
And we're back, let's dive right in.
And we're back, let's diveright in.
Can I follow up on that lastone on the connections?
And I'm again.
Every situation is going to bedifferent.
There's not a cookie cutter forany of this.
I know some people who are likeno, you know, it's embarrassing
, I'm not going to tell a familyfriend, I'm not going to tell
(17:20):
anyone, and you know I justgoing to be us or you know, and
another couple that I'm kind,kind of his.
I'll just check in right oncein a while.
He's there seeing a therapisthere in town and things are
going, um, pretty good.
But I'm more kind of thecheck-in, um, and I don't pry or
anything.
But I feel like I'm playingthat kind of a supportive role
and you know she's aware of thatand everything.
Any thoughts on you know who totell or how much to tell, or to
(17:43):
share any of this with.
David Jones (17:45):
Yeah, I think a good phrase that I think I
learned from a colleague onceupon a time is that you let in
people who have earned the rightto know, and so that's a trust
factor for sure, and oftentimes,sadly, you'll think that a
person has earned the right toknow, so you'll let them in.
You'll find out quickly thatthey weren't the right people,
so then you put up that boundarywith them.
But you speak to a really goodpoint, because either the
(18:09):
betraying partner or thebetrayed partner and they both
need support, let's make nobones about that they both need
feeling too ashamed to open up,or they worry that it's going to
be too judgmental or theirreligious community is going to
shame them or something, and sowe have to figure that out
somehow.
I love a lot of the supportgroups that we have in the
community.
(18:29):
That can be a place ofnon-judgment and shame.
There can always be nuance tothat.
But even something likeasynchronous finding a Facebook
group or another onlinecommunity that can help you
connect, finding a Facebookgroup or another online
community that can help youconnect you can be anonymous.
In that Everything has its risk, because you might find people
who, again, are not marriagefriendly.
They've had their own pain thatthey can't see that somebody
(18:52):
else could potentially get pastthis.
We have to be very careful andmake some assessments about that
.
But there can be other ways toconnect.
Even if we can can't do it likeone-on-one with someone, it's
harder.
It's harder if you can't findsomebody that you can look in
the eye and be in pain, but it'spossible.
A therapist can be that way.
Dave Schramm (19:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
David Jones (19:16):
And I like.
Liz Hale (19:16):
That question you were proposing, Dave, is how do we
be those good support people?
David, do you have just acouple thoughts on how can I be
a good support to my friends whomight be going through that?
David Jones (19:27):
Most important thing is a place of non-judgment
, because people are going tomake decisions for or against
their marriage based on whatthey need, and even if we aren't
necessarily on board with theirdecisions, we recognize that
their decisions are theirdecisions.
You might be really close tosomebody that has experienced
(19:48):
betrayal and because of thatyou're feeling your own pain,
and so it's hard for you to beaccepting of the idea that maybe
they want their marriage towork Well.
That's their decision, and toat least be marriage neutral is
a really, really good place andI'm using the word marriage
anonymously because I work witha lot of couples who are in
other intimate forms ofrelationships.
But maybe they want to be andmaybe they have kids, maybe they
(20:10):
have all kinds of reasons thatthey're in that relationship,
and to be a place of marriage isprobably the most engaging.
Liz Hale (20:17):
I guess my question too is how do I be a good
support without kind of gettingin the mire of it?
I don't want to be a therapistto this couple.
I'm thinking of a particularcouple.
I want to be their friend, butthey kind of like to rope in
friends right, Especially whenyou're a therapist.
They want to get your take onit.
Yeah, how do I avoid that?
David Jones (20:38):
Yeah, I think you're probably speaking to the
boundaries concept again, liz,we've got to put up a wall, but
we can put up a gate.
I'm not going to expose mywhole property, so to speak, but
I'm going to let little bits ofinformation Sometimes that's
with crucial, difficultconversations like I'd really
love to help you with more ofthis.
I am here for you, but I can'tget in the middle of it and
(21:01):
maybe it's because I care aboutboth of you, maybe it's because
I don't have the time toemotionally invest in this, and
then that's going to keep youhanging.
So, speaking communicativelywith the boundary and saying I'm
here for this and this, I'dlove to take you to dinner.
I'll be a sounding board foryou.
But if I started to get realdeal, I'm going to probably have
to step back a little bit andbe the place that I can be for
(21:22):
you.
Liz Hale (21:25):
That's well said.
I love.
We love the message, David,that couples really do recover
from this type of betrayal.
Can you share some stories ofhealing what that looks like?
We realize, like Dave's point,every couple, every journey is
different, without a specifictime frame.
Is that right?
David Jones (21:43):
Oh, yeah, for sure and just first of all,
unequivocally yes, people canrecover from this.
That's what excites me mostabout doing this work.
It's hard work.
People ask me all the time howdo I do it?
And it's because I get chargedand recharged by seeing people
recover it happens every week onmy couch and recharged by
(22:03):
seeing people recover.
It happens every week on mycouch.
It's going to take a lot ofwork, a lot of highs, a lot of
lows, a lot of roller coaster,but it's possible.
It's worth every effort andeven if, in the end, the
marriage doesn't survive, theeffort is worth it.
So I very much believe that.
But the healing looks like formost couples.
(22:27):
The healing really looks likeincreased vulnerability that
we're able to open up to eachother, and I learned so much
from my couples.
So that's what I love aboutdoing this work, because they
teach me so much.
The one couple in particularthat I'm thinking of was
significant in its presentationabout the way the one partner
acted out, but what that endedup looking like for them and
their journey is that they couldreally be open and vulnerable
(22:47):
with each other about all things.
He could tell her after doingall of the most nefarious things
that you could ever imagine.
He could turn to her and tellher I can't believe I did that.
Sometimes I feel tempted to doit again.
He could tell her that andthat's a significant
vulnerability.
It would be hard for her butit's better than him just not
(23:09):
telling her and going out anddoing it again.
She could tell him about hernegative alterations in the way
that she believed in herself.
This was so hard for me I don'teven think I'm worth it anymore
.
I don't think I matter to you,but those are really hard things
to share.
But if you can do that and havethat be a safe, nonjudgmental
place, that's what healing wouldlike for that couple and,
(23:31):
generally speaking, that's whateverybody needs is the ability
to be open and vulnerable witheach other about what they're
experiencing on both sides ofthe issue.
You mentioned timeframe, andtimeframe is hard.
I mean, most couples are goingto be years into recovery,
whatever that looks like.
That might be years in therapy,that might be years of doing
(23:52):
their own work, but it takes along time and oftentimes I'll
ask I'll have couples how longis this going to take?
They'll ask that question andI'll say something like well,
how long was he looking atpornography?
Well, for 10 years.
Well, it might take 10 years.
I don't really believe thatnecessarily, but I want to give
them perspective that it's goingto take them a little while.
(24:15):
But one of the things about thetimeline takes us back to the
concept of trauma.
Trauma itself is kind of thisomnipresent thing.
It doesn't have a timeline.
A traumatic trigger right nowbrings up all of the stuff from
the past, totally messes withour view of safety about the
future and it's happening rightnow and that's an important
thing to realize.
(24:36):
That's one thing that setstrauma apart perhaps is I'm
feeling this omnipresence ofeverything right now, and so
oftentimes I'll understandablyhave both partners say things
like why can't we just get pastthis?
Why can't I get over this?
Well, those are statements ofpast.
Past doesn't exist in atraumatic moment.
It's all in one singular moment.
(24:57):
So the right word is how can Iheal?
And healing is going to take along time.
If I have a physical wound onmy body, a cut or something, my
body's generally healthy enoughand it will heal over time.
If I add treatment to thatwound, keep it clean, put some
Neosporin on it, a Band-Aid itwill heal faster.
So time plus treatment is thefactor there, but I'd really say
(25:21):
how long.
Usually a while, though.
But I'd really say how longusually a while, though.
Liz Hale (25:26):
Well, can I ask you?
Sometimes I will cautioncouples against quick
forgiveness.
Do you do that as well?
Can you just make a commentabout that please?
David Jones (25:36):
Well, sure, and I think we can borrow a lot from
the work of, like Scott Stanleyand Howard Markman with their
prevention and relationshipenhancement program, orep.
They do a great module onforgiveness, what forgiveness is
and what forgiveness isn't, andso helping couples understand
that forgiveness doesn't equaltrust.
Trust is something that'searned over time.
(25:57):
Forgiveness does not equalcondoning of bad behavior.
Forgiveness doesn't mean allthe pain is gone.
Forgiveness doesn't mean therearen't consequences to things.
So recognizing that forgivenessis actually separate from some
of those things, because I thinkwe get them mixed up in our
head.
Forgiveness is letting go of thebelief that you owe me
something, that there's somesort of transaction that still
(26:17):
has to happen.
We can look at that financially.
If I forgive a debt, you don'towe me that anymore.
So I think that's thing one ishelping people understand
forgiveness, but especiallyhelping people not go too fast
with it, because they might havea Judeo-Christian spiritual
belief about it, which Isubscribe.
I think it's part of theprocess forgive way too quickly
(26:45):
and then they're just going to,then they're that what they're
probably going to do is deny anyefforts that they need to still
have given or that they need todo themselves for healing.
Dave Schramm (26:53):
Thank you, yeah, david, I'm curious what the
process looks like.
Um, if the marriage is is notintact, I'm sure affairs result
in many separations, divorces.
Can one heal from betrayal,trauma from that?
Does that process lookdifferent?
David Jones (27:11):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think for me it involves
the same three legs of the stool.
It just might look a little bitdifferent because if a partner
has, if the marriagerelationship is no longer viable
and the marriage relationshipends, then that's probably
stronger boundaries that need tohappen with that person.
It's going to be more wallsthan gates and the connections
(27:34):
portion of it is going to lookdifferent because it's arguably
not appropriate or not healthyor not safe to use that partner
as a connection resource.
So we just have to modify whatthey need for that individual.
But I still think it needs thesame things boundaries,
interpersonal or, excuse me,individual coping skills and
self-care and connections.
In fact, just tonight here inmy practice we're starting a
(27:57):
betrayal trauma group based onthat model and I know those that
are in the group are in alldifferent situations.
Some are no longer in therelationship, some are working
on their relationship.
We're going to have that in amixed group.
It's going to be a wild routebut I think the factors still
apply to all situations.
Dave Schramm (28:14):
Yeah, okay, thank you.
Liz Hale (28:16):
Great and I would love to hear more about your
practice as well, the secureconnection, counseling and say,
george, do you see groups online, individuals online, and where
can listeners find out moreabout you and your resources?
David Jones (28:28):
David, yeah sure, secure Connection Counseling.
We're a clinic in St George,Utah.
It's myself and I've got five,six practitioners that work for
me.
All of us are formally trainedin Emotionally Focused Therapy
or EFT, which is my favoriteform of therapy by far.
It's the gold standard incouples therapy according to the
APA, and so we take that veryseriously that we need to have
(28:53):
strong connections, strongattachments, secure attachments
in our life.
We see individuals and couplesin our practice.
Our caseload is probably about80% couples.
The rest are going to beindividuals and some families,
and we do see people online aswell, and people can find us at
(29:13):
secureconnectioncounselingcom.
Okay.
Liz Hale (29:15):
Thank you Wonderful.
Dave Schramm (29:17):
Yeah, we'll be sure to put that link in our
show notes for our listeners aswell.
Let me ask you, david, in honorof the name of our podcast,
stronger Marriage Connection inall of your personal, your
professional experience and it'shard to do this right To boil
things down to one key, but isthere a key that you feel like
(29:38):
is essential for a strongermarriage connection?
David Jones (29:41):
Well, I could talk about this all day so it is hard
to boil it down, but I'll justemphasize the importance of that
phrase stronger connection asan emotionally focused therapist
.
Eft is rooted in attachmenttheory, which says that we do
better in our life when we havestrong connections, and it goes
as far as saying that there areneeds.
(30:01):
It's not just a nice to have.
We need strong connections inour life and unfortunately I
think people in our field havepathologized that too much, that
it's something bad or wrong foryou to need another person in
your life.
And so EFT especially helpstake away that stigma that it's
okay and necessary for us tohave strong connections in our
(30:21):
life.
So I applaud the title of theprogram.
It fits specifically with myphilosophy about things.
But I think the key to havingthose stronger connections
really boils down to emotionalsafety.
In AFT we're trying to helpcouples create stronger
attachments and stronger bondsby getting to the emotions that
(30:41):
are underneath the patterns andcycles that they've established
in their relationship.
One partner's pursuit trying toget their partner to open up is
rooted in fear that if I don'tget them to open up they won't
love me and I'm going to lose myrelationship.
One partner's withdrawal in therelationship is rooted maybe in
a fear of not being enough fortheir relationship and partner,
(31:03):
and so they don't know what todo, so they just shut down.
And so when we pay attention tothose fears, it reframes it
significantly.
If I'm scared that you don'tlove me, that means you matter
to me.
And so when we start to reframethat, it starts to change the
nature of it by going to theemotion.
So when we can getvulnerability in those deeper
emotions, that breeds strongerconnection.
Dave Schramm (31:24):
I love it.
Yeah, emotional safetyEssential.
Yeah, thanks so much, david.
As we wrap things up, we callit a takeaway of the day.
Is there a message that youhope our listeners will remember
from our discussion today?
David Jones (31:39):
Sure, I think probably two.
The first is that betrayaltrauma is trauma.
It might not meet the clinicalcriteria for PTSD that's not
what we're going for necessarilybut it is trauma, it is an
alteration of reality and whenwe understand that, when I
really started to understandthat clinically, it changed the
nature of the way I treat myindividuals and my couples,
(32:01):
because it's this thing thathappened to them, not this what
they are, because that's whatthey're telling them.
But I think the second thingthat's most important is that
healing is possible.
It absolutely is possible.
Whether that's healing in yourindividual life and you no
longer have a viablerelationship, and especially
healing in your relationship,that is very much possible.
(32:24):
I recognize that that doesn'thappen for everybody and that's
a tragedy and that deserves itsown focus and specialty and care
.
But it's possible both waysaround.
Dave Schramm (32:35):
Yeah, wonderful, love it, liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway today?
Liz Hale (32:38):
Those are great takeaways, David.
You know I love this idea thatforgiveness does not necessarily
mean trust.
I mean, when I look at just theword forgiving, I separate it
out.
It's for giving myself a gift,right, Even as a betrayed
partner, I don't have to hang onto this bitterness.
It doesn't necessarily meanthat trust has been earned,
because you can't earn itquickly and I just love that
(33:01):
there's still.
I don't love this, but thehonoring that there's can be
forgiveness, and still pain andstill consequence.
Or you know, I really need this.
I often say to my clients youknow, I can't do for your
partner, but you can do for them, right?
This is really where thehealing comes in, and vice versa
.
I think that's the ultimategoal, and gift of marriage is is
(33:22):
really that mutual healing.
So, Dave, what about you?
What struck you most today?
Dave Schramm (33:28):
Yeah, that's been really insightful.
Thanks, david.
A lot of things have stuck out.
I love the stool analogy inthat second peg that you talk
about.
That it's really self-care isnot selfish, you know, it's
making time, taking time for me,and it may not be like a okay,
that a spa day or something, butit really is like okay, I need
(33:50):
to make sure I'm in a good place, right, so I can, so I can take
care of others, I can make surethat I'm I'm okay and I can
think straight and processthings and reaching out to
others, the connections, thatthird, that third leg in that
stool.
So I I really like that umbeing able to and and every
situation is different.
That also stood out to me, thatevery single case there may be
(34:12):
some commonalities right acrossa betrayal trauma, but every
story is unique and different,uh, and painful, I think, across
the board.
Um, so there's not a set timeframe for the healing and the
hope and that journey.
So super helpful.
(34:32):
David, thank you so much formaking time to join us today.
David Jones (34:35):
You bet, and again, it is a heavy topic, a
necessary topic, but I hope themessage that comes through the
listeners is there is hope.
So thank you, it's been aprivilege to be with you.
Dave Schramm (34:46):
Yeah, yeah, thanks so much.
Liz Hale (34:48):
I guess there's hope, whether we stay married or
whether we continue on.
True, I mean, yeah, I can't.
We can't wait to bring you backand to talk about remarriage.
It's just going to be a delightand and this, this wonderful
job you and your wife have donein blending a family and living
to tell about the good of secondmarriage and blended family.
(35:10):
It's beautiful.
Dave Schramm (35:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll have you on again, my
friend.
Thanks so much for making timeagain, david.
We sure appreciate you and wewill see you next time on
another episode of the StrongerMarriage Connection podcast.
And remember, friends, it's thesmall things that create a
(35:38):
stronger marriage connection.
Take good care of you and eachother.
At Utah Marriage Commission,where you can watch this and
every episode of the show, besure to smash the like button,
leave a comment and share thisepisode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
(35:58):
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved, which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
(36:20):
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity, and you, our
audience.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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