August 25, 2025 • 44 mins
Dating requires intention and skill, whether you're looking for fun or seeking a lifelong partnership. Marriage and family therapist Stacey Hubbard joins us to share her Gottman-based approach for singles navigating the relationship landscape.
• Building friendship first is crucial when dating - take things slowly and watch for signs of trustworthiness
• The honeymoon phase typically lasts 6-18 months with feel-good chemicals making us more trusting
• Understanding the three phases of relationships: limerence (honeymoon), trust-building, and commitment
• Many couples skip from honeymoon phase to commitment without properly building trust
• Trust indicators include honesty, transparency, proof of alliance, ethical actions, and accountability
• Develop a "positive habit of mind" by scanning for what's good rather than focusing on flaws
• Successful couples dedicate at least six hours a week to their relationship
• Focus on "unique value" (personality, values, interests) rather than just "mate value" (physical attraction)
Check out the Lessons in Love for Singles workshop at gottman.com under the singles dropdown, or visit staceyhubbard.com for more resources.
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Dr. Liz Hale:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Dr Liz and I typically tackle topics to help
couples, but today we bring on atherapist who offers help and
hope for singles who are datingfor fun or longing for love and
marriage.
On today's episode, we welcomeStacey Hubbard to the show to
talk about tips for singles whenit comes to fun, trust,
commitment and so much more.
Our guest today is StaceyHubbard, a licensed marriage and
(00:26):
family therapist with over 25years of experience helping
individuals and couples thrive.
She earned her master's incounseling from Portland State
University and has spent thepast two decades using the
Gottman Method, becomingcertified 13 years ago and a
master trainer with the GottmanInstitute in 2016.
Years ago and a master trainerwith the Gottman Institute in
(00:47):
2016.
Stacey trains other therapists,works with couples in therapy
and even teaches a singlescourse she developed based on
the Gottman approach.
She lives on 10 beautiful acresnear Ashland, oregon, with her
husband and their four dogs, andloves hiking, kayaking, sports
and travel.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
We hope you enjoy the show.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection.
I'm psychologist Dr Liz Hale,along with the beloved professor
Dr Dave Schramm.
Together we have dedicated ourlife's work to bringing you the
best we have in valid maritalresearch, along with a few tips
(01:26):
and tools to help you create themarriage of your dreams.
Well, today's segment, dave, Ilove this topic.
We're dedicating it to singles.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
So good.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Today's guest.
It is so good.
Today's guest and I havesomething in common we were both
single for a very long time,even as practicing marriage and
family therapist, so she's awoman after my own heart.
What I greatly admire aboutStacey Hubbard is that she took
matters into her own hands.
As a licensed marriagetherapist, a certified Gottman
therapist and a master trainerfor them, she teamed up with the
(01:56):
Gottmans and many of their keyleaders to create an intensive
workshop for singles dedicatedto building healthier
relationships in the world.
So we're going to talk abouthealthy dating with the support
of science and more Stacey.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection.
The way we date really mattersdoesn't it.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Yes, it does.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm going to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yes and how?
So?
How does dating, how we date,how does that really matter?
In a nutshell, yes and how?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
so?
How does dating, how we date,how does that really matter?
In a nutshell, well, one thingthat I've really learned in
creating this workshop forsingles and all the time I've
worked with couples and singlesthroughout the decades here is
just the importance of buildingfriendship at the beginning of
dating and really and taking itslow, I mean that's one thing
(02:46):
that we can talk more about, thekind of science behind why
that's important.
But building friendship andfondness and admiration,
creating love maps when you'renew into dating somebody, and,
as we'll talk about theprinciples that we really focus
on in the Gottman approach andin the singles course, is that
(03:08):
you want to be able to applythese skills to friendships, to
family relationships, tocoworkers.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Any relationship.
I love this.
I don't know why I didn't thinkabout this before, stacey, we'd
all love to hear.
How did this start?
This is called Lessons in Lovefor Singles.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
You and your marriage status played a crucial role as
well, as did the doorman in aManhattan hotel.
So I was teaching a couplesworkshop in New York City, in
Manhattan, and it's the Art andScience of Love, the couples
workshop, right.
So I was facilitating that.
But the doorman at the hotelwas asking about the content in
(03:55):
the workshop and so I told himall about it and he was really
excited and he said can I go toone of those?
And I said, well, actually youhave to have a partner.
And he said, oh, that's too bad, I don't have a partner right
now and I think this would begood for me to learn all this
stuff.
And I said, yeah, well, best ofluck.
And again, at that time I wassingle.
So this was 10 years ago now.
(04:18):
So, on the flight back home so Ilive in Oregon, so I was flying
on a red-eye back to Oregon andI was like, well, you know what
?
That doorman has?
A good point, this is importantcontent.
And there's no.
At that point there was nointeractive, actual workshop for
(04:38):
single people.
So I said, well, let's thinkabout how this could work and I
sort of created an outline andtalked with Dr Dave Penner, who
was the clinical director at theGottman Institute for a very
long time, and he wasimmediately like yep, sounds,
kind of get it up to where it isnow, but that was the origin
(05:09):
story.
So you know, a doorman and ared-eye flight home.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Be nice if we could find that doorman.
Right.
Yeah, I got to say good news.
Whether he's married or single,we got something for him Right,
right, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Married or single.
We got something for him Right.
Yeah, that's right, stacey.
The main goal in helpingsingles is to help them date in
order to help them marry, but sothis suggests that maybe dating
to marry isn't always, I guess,the goal in the dating world.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Is that right?
Yeah, good question.
So it's kind of broad, becausesome people are dating to marry,
absolutely they're looking forcommitment and to build a life
with somebody, and some peopleare maybe just wanting to more
casually date, or they're notsure what they want, or they
have come out of a kind of adifficult or traumatic
(06:00):
relationship and they just wantto explore dating, or maybe
they're newly divorced and theywant to start dipping their toe
back in.
So there's a wide range ofpeople that take the course.
Um, but the the I think the keypart is how those principles
that we learn in the workshoptranslate again to all
(06:25):
friendships, familyrelationships, etc.
Etc.
And some of the science behindtrust and building trust and how
the early phases of dating.
When you're in that we call itthe honeymoon phase there's this
oxytocin haze that kind oftakes over.
(06:48):
There's those sort of dopamineand all these chemicals that
flood our system and it feelsreally good and that's awesome.
And also when you have highlevels of oxytocin you are more
trusting.
So there's some research behindthat.
So that's why it's importantand we encourage people to take
things slow, to not kind of rushinto a bigger commitment in
(07:10):
that early honeymoon phase Longanswer, but hopefully that makes
sense.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, it makes sense for sure.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I just love this concept that the Gottmans, their
great research, can apply toany relationship single, married
as well.
And how can singles set thatfoundation for love Stacey?
What are the common datingpractices?
Speaker 3 (07:32):
maybe that even should be avoided workshop and
in the research that I did forthe workshop is to, you know,
take things slowly, meaningdating, but also keeping in mind
(07:56):
the five signs of trust.
So these are Dr Gottman's sortof five signs of trustworthiness
that he writes about in thebook what Makes Love Last, which
is one of my favorites.
So there is honesty,transparency, proof of alliance,
meaning that person will haveyour back and be there for you
when you need them.
Ethical actions oh, now, I'mforgetting how to trust
(08:29):
Transparency, ethical, ethicalactions group of alliance.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Uh, yeah, I'm gonna have to look at that.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Four and a five, though that's beautiful so that
takes time to to kind of buildand to really dig into can I
trust this person?
Do that kind of?
The essence is are they goingto have my back?
Will they be there for me?
Can I count on them?
Do I matter?
And that does take time.
So, with that in mind,encouraging people to take
(08:59):
things slow and also kind ofkeep in touch with their friends
or family, invite them in like,hey, meet this person I'm
dating.
Or I'm processing and talkingwith my friends when I'm dating
about this person and are theytrustworthy?
Because that really is socrucial.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
That is very cool.
Accountability might have beenthe other one, accountability,
thank you.
Yeah, that's cool.
I had to look it up, so thatwas really very cool.
It's very powerful actually.
And you know, I have to behonest with you, I didn't date
my husband a long time before wemarried and some of these
things, thank goodness, kind ofshowed up after the fact.
You know what I mean.
But I am grateful for when theydo show up every single day.
(09:35):
It just deepens that love andaffection.
But do we have any idea howlong it might take then to
foster this?
I didn't follow any kind ofparticular rule, stacey.
Is there a rule for how longone should date according to
Gottman's, to be able to maybesee some of these things before
you make that big commitment?
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Sure.
So there's not a hard and fastrule but what we know, that
oxytocin kind of haze, or thedopamine, that whole honeymoon
phase.
It was anywhere from like sixmonths to a year, year and a
half, um, so anywhere in thatrange, I mean once there's
really you're getting over thewhat we call that haze, which
(10:17):
again it's fun, it feels goodand I always say thank heavens
that it ends at some pointbecause otherwise nothing would
get done in the world.
Right, it's hard to focus, youjust think about that person all
the time.
So when that starts to kind offade, again, that's where you're
starting to build trust andfigure out do they have my back
(10:37):
and are they accountable?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
So that range six months, a year and a half is is
usually a good marker wow, thattakes some time, doesn't it that
that was just for the haze towear off.
Did I get that right?
Speaker 3 (10:54):
yeah, and again, that's different for everyone,
so there's no hard and fast rule.
Um, yeah, yeah nice.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I mean thinking about that.
It gives people an opportunityto see them in different
situations outside of just thefun and the love.
You see, okay, yeah, maybe whenwe go out or we there's money
involved doing purchasing andhabits, and then you see them
maybe when they're tired andcranky and not just yeah, bing,
they look like a million bucksevery time, and so you get to
(11:22):
see them a different, maybe evenseason to season of time of day
and weeks and months, as thatgoes on, as you develop that
friendship and that trust, likeyou're saying.
But yeah, I agree with Liz,kind of that, just kind of
depends.
It feels like some just take alittle bit longer than others
but really making time to get toknow that person Beyond the
(11:45):
superficial right Know thatperson.
We'll be right back after thisbrief message and we're back.
Let's dive right in.
(12:06):
Let's talk about the uh, threephases of of love.
You you mentioned this.
I'm assuming this is part ofthe workshop as well.
Phase one you talk about is islimerence, and that is a
probably a term that very few,unless you're like going to, you
know the school and you'retaking human development, family
studies, types, classes orthings.
Can you explain what limerenceis?
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yeah, so limerence is that technical term for the
honeymoon phase, when you are inthat oxytocin, dopamine,
serotonin haze that it kind offeels like a drug because it is
right.
It's that pleasure center inyour brain releasing those you
know chemicals and hormones.
Uh, so it is that early phasewhen everything is wonderful and
(12:48):
you can.
You'll think about that personall the time and you like the
way they smell and you can'twait to be with them and that
kind of that attraction.
So that's the first phase.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And then what about phase two, what about phase
three?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
So, that is the all important trust building phase.
So this is where people aretrying to determine does my
partner have my back, can Icount on them, are they going to
be there for me?
And so Dr Gottman, when he waswriting what Makes Love Last, he
went back and reviewed all theresearch and his recordings in
(13:26):
early research and really whatcouples were saying in that kind
of all-important phase is theywere kind of saying like do you
have my back?
In a nutshell, and so theimportance of trust building is
that.
That's kind of where youdetermine that Now.
So that's the phase where themost fighting occurs in that
(13:50):
early stage, because not that italways happens.
Sometimes that trust buildingis really smooth and it's really
obvious.
But that can be where the mostfighting occurs because people
are trying to like am Iimportant to you, do I matter?
So that is an importanttransition that a lot of people
(14:11):
don't, they're not aware of itor they may skip to the third
phase, which is commitment,without truly building trust.
So I had a couple that I workedwith where they went kind of
from the oxytocin, got engagedreally early, jumped to the
commitment, but they didn'tbuild that trust and so I was in
(14:33):
.
Luckily, we were in therapybefore they got married.
They were engaged, but theywere really having all that
fighting and when we looked atthe three phases from a bigger
perspective, they realized like,oh, we got to slow this down,
we didn't build trust, we needto build trust, and so we worked
on that in therapy.
So the trust building oh sorry,good question.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Well, that's interesting.
So you can actually kind of gobackwards and pick up where,
pick up what we jumped over?
Yep, yeah, absolutely.
And how did you do that?
I'm curious what?
What did you do to help thiscouple?
What did they do?
Was it a matter of puttingthemselves in different
scenarios, like Dave suggests?
Speaker 3 (15:14):
I think that's such a great idea um, so that was part
of it, what we had to do,because one way to build trust
is attuning to your partner'snegative emotions, which is
important, and there are timeswhere people have what we call a
meta emotion mismatch.
So what that means is metaemotion is how you feel about
(15:37):
feelings.
Right, and so if there's amismatch and one person really
wants to talk about and processfeelings and the other person is
kind of dismissive or avoidantof feelings, that can be a big
clash.
And so part of that with thatcouple was actually digging into
the meta emotion history foreach of them and trying to build
(16:01):
the ability for both partnersto attune, which means turn
toward your partner when theyhave negative emotions, when
they are sad or scared or angry.
So that's a way to build trustin relationship.
We also worked a lot on some ofthe friendship stuff around
(16:23):
fondness and admiration and justreally slowing that down.
So that's right, it's been awhile, but that's what I
remember anyways.
That is very cool.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And did they end up getting married?
Sorry, I'm so curious.
Did that couple?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, from what I remember, yes, I'm going to say
yes, yes, they definitely gotmarried.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
That is very cool.
Yeah, thanks, lindyann, excuseme, I should have asked this
earlier.
Give me a better sense of thethe workshops themselves length.
Are they virtual?
Are they in person?
Uh, you know the couple orsingles.
I guess you know the audiencesize, those types of things yeah
.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
So let me give a kind of a history and that'll answer
your question.
So in we did our first actualworkshop in person in summer
2016 in Seattle, and so that wasDr Dave Penner and myself and
that was kind of our testworkshop and that was, I would
say, I think, 20, somewhere inthat range 25 people, because
(17:22):
that was our pilot and it gotreally good feedback.
So we made some adjustments andthen started doing bigger and
bigger in-person workshops inSeattle.
They were always in Seattle, soI would fly up there and Dave
and I would present together.
Those grew to.
Our biggest one was, I think wehad a little over 100 people in
the room and then we did alsohave a live stream at the same
(17:45):
time of 200 people from all overthe world.
So that was our biggest one.
And then this is all kind ofleading up to COVID.
So from like 2016 to 2019, early2020, we were doing them in
person.
Into 2019, early 2020, we weredoing them in person.
So we did our last in-personone in.
(18:08):
It was actually late February,early March 2020.
And then we transitioned intodoing them on Zoom and now we do
them.
Usually it's around probably 60people on Zoom when we do them
through the Institute, but 60people on zoom when we do them
through the institute.
But people are now beingtrained to present them on their
own, like there's a leadercourse that people can take to
(18:30):
teach other singles or, you know, to teach singles how, um, how
to be effective in relationship,and so those are both virtual
and in personperson, so it'sboth options at this point, okay
.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, it helps kind of set allthis context up for what you're
curious about.
Just your go-to tips.
Do you have there's singlesmaybe listening right now and
they're like, okay, you know,I've got to.
You know it's the honeymoonphase and then learning to trust
and then commitment?
Do you have any kind of go-totips for singles who are
(19:09):
listening or maybe in the midstand they're a little hesitant?
Or man, they've been in thisfor now it feels like for years
and I'm going through the cycle.
Nobody good out there anymore.
What tips do you have?
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yep.
So one important thing is theimportance of mate value versus
unique value.
So this was from research doneat the University of Texas and
this is the difference betweenmate value and unique value is
this Mate value is that initial,immediate first impression of
(19:43):
somebody, almost like anattraction or almost like an
animal attraction to somebody,versus the unique value is
something that develops a littlebit more slowly and over time
where you start to realize, oh,they're really funny or we have
a lot of things in common and oh, I feel the same way about that
kind of like the values, theinterest that that may take a
(20:06):
little more time to sort ofdevelop, um, and that that's
actually how my husband and Igot together.
So you know, in terms of mystory, if I can insert that here
is, I was so a single for eightyears in my 40s, also living in
a smaller town in Oregon, not alot of options.
(20:29):
It was difficult.
I always normalize that forpeople, dating is hard, internet
dating hard, all of it.
It's difficult.
It's a process you got to behardy and sturdy to to persist,
um, but so I was kind of, yeah,my late 40s and my husband at, I
(20:50):
mean, obviously we were justfriends at the time, but we we
went to the same crossfit gymand we got to know each other
over years like littleconversations at the gym.
We started then then going togroup outings, you know we would
go like a bunch of us would goto a movie or a concert or we
went like axe throwing and youknow comedy shows, that kind of
stuff.
So over time, you know, we kindof started to figure out we did
(21:14):
have a lot in common, had a lotof the same kind of values and
goals and beliefs, and so wekind of that kind of slowly
evolved and we, yeah, so starteddating and got married.
And so that's one importantthing is that I guess the the
long and the short of that iswhen, when dating, to kind of
(21:35):
have that more approach aboutlike discovering the unique
value of somebody, if that makessense yes, yeah, and friendship
.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I mean, what a sweet beginning to have.
That kind of association didn'tstart off as romantic, right.
It was just we were, you know,we were like-minded, a bit
worked out of the same place andsingles got together.
I think that's just really abeautiful love story.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Yeah, we're pretty lucky.
We say that every day.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Pretty lucky, yeah, and even then, right, even then,
marriage is still work, right,we talked about dating as work
and being online dating as work.
I met my husband online as well, and I wouldn't have met, I
wouldn't have dated without that, because we're not going to
date our clients, right, we'reseeing married people for
starters.
Plus, we're not going to dateour clients, but it's just like
(22:26):
where do you meet?
Where do singles meet?
So what were the?
Okay, stacey, do you mind?
What were some of the surprisesin marriage?
Even then, even when you're sotrained and did the single
program, were there any?
I certainly had my share.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Oh yeah, yep, it's uh ongoing people always, yeah,
it's, it's hard it there.
We are very lucky and blessed,uh, to have found each other,
but there are still hard moments, um of you know, learning how
to manage conflict and eachother's styles of conflict and
(23:03):
styles of emotion and how thoseare expressed, because we have a
different family history.
So we always say in the GottmanMethod, every relationship is a
cross-cultural experience,because it doesn't matter if you
grew up on the same street,same religion, race, culture, if
you, you know, you grew up in adifferent family, household
(23:24):
with different beliefs, values,rituals, symbols, etc.
So it takes some time to get toknow that in a lot of
discussions, how things shouldgo.
And then life stressors andlearning how to manage
conversations about that.
Learning how to manageconversations about that.
So I'm, you know, even being ahighly trained marriage
(23:45):
therapist.
There's still conflicts we haveto work through, you know.
So repair is probably one of myfavorites kind of two ways you
know from what I, when I workwith singles and couples, is
being able to repair, either inthe moment or after the fact.
Saying things like I didn'tmean for it to come out that way
(24:08):
.
I regret what I said earlier.
Can we talk?
Or hey, let's slow this down.
Things are getting a littleheated.
I want to understand what'sgoing on for you, somehow kind
of reaching across that divideto keep the conversation going.
Those repair tactics are reallyhelpful.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And did he also like the Gottman approach?
My husband?
He's not read one marriage book, right, it's just not his thing
.
Nor does he really need to, inmy belief system anyway.
So it's when I just kind ofkeep myself in check things go
so much better.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
But was he interested ?
Did you do trainings together?
I'm so curious, good question.
So he doesn't formally have anykind of understanding of when
we talk about the Gottman Method.
He actually kind of follows theGottmans on social media and so
he kind of understanding ofwhen we talk about the Gottman
method.
He actually kind of follows theGottman's on on social media
and so he kind of sees more ofthat stuff than I do, cause I
don't really do social media.
But he, so his, hisunderstanding of it is is kind
(25:13):
of rudimentary.
But what I will say, he, withoutknowing it, was doing a lot of
this work before we starteddating, like learning how to be
a good listener, how to ask good, open-ended questions and be
kind of a more curious listener.
He was doing a lot of that workon himself before we even got
together and having his own kindof self-care practices,
(25:39):
physical activity and Tai Chi,and so he kind of has a
different approach to it.
And then now he's actually nowa certified alcohol and drug
counselor.
He um kind of had a careerchange which he's sort of in the
same field but with a differentfocus.
Um, so yeah, we, yeah, we havea lot of a lot in common, and a
(26:00):
lot of differences too, but it'sgreat.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
No wonder you kind of found each other.
You were both interested inreally self-improvement, you
know, and trying to understand,to show up as the best kind of
human being that you can.
That's quite lovely.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in okay, let's, let's.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Let's just ask one more here.
Sorry hogging the time here.
What about a favorite tool foreither singles or couples?
So you mentioned the reparativework.
I love that.
I love the repair checklistthat the gotmans have had for
years.
My, my checklist is so old thatI give to every couple I work
with, but I love it.
What other tools do you findhelpful, whether you're single
(26:54):
or married?
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yep, great.
So one thing that I wanted tomention is that in that third
phase of relationship, thecommitment phase, is in that
phase when you really commit tosomebody, it's kind of believing
and acting on the belief thatthis is my person and we're
going to get through the hardtimes.
In that phase we see thatcouples, when they're doing it
(27:20):
successfully we call this truecommitment they are cherishing,
so they're thinkingpro-relationship thoughts
instead of trashing or negativerelationship thoughts or
comparisons.
So that's one thing that Ireally try to do every day, if I
can, is to think cherishingthoughts and pro-relationship
(27:44):
thoughts of positive comparisons.
So it sort of looks like thisI'm so lucky my partner is in my
life, I'm so happy because heis like blank, blank versus why
does he do that?
I wish he was more likeso-and-so or why can't he be
more like somebody else, real orimagined?
(28:04):
That is crucial in having thistrue commitment versus that kind
of conditional commitment whichinvolves those negative
comparisons.
So that's one thing.
And then another that's sort oftied really closely with
fondness and admiration is beingable to have the positive habit
(28:25):
of mind.
So the positive habit of mindis so you imagine walking into a
room and scanning foreverything that's good,
everything you like in that room, and really focusing on and
commenting on that Instead ofthe negative habit of mind.
Imagine you're walking into aroom and just looking for
everything that you don't like,everything that's off or wrong,
(28:47):
wrong, and really focusing onthat.
So in relationship it's thesame.
You're scanning yourrelationship, your social
environment for things that youappreciate, love, admire, that
you respect, and then you'recalling those out and pointing
those out.
Versus walking into that,thinking about your relationship
and just scanning for thethings that you don't like, that
(29:09):
critical, negative habit ofmind.
I don't like that.
Stop doing that, don't do that.
That really shifts thingstoward that negative perspective
versus in that positive habitof mind, with that scanning for
positive, commenting and lettingyour partner know or again,
even friends, kids, coworkers.
(29:32):
Then when you need to ask forsomething to be different or you
have a concern or a request,it's a lot easier for the other
person to kind of hear that andgo, yeah, that makes sense.
You have a kind of a wellstored up we call it that
emotional bank account stored upwhere you could say, hey, this
(29:53):
isn't working for me, can wetalk about how to do it
differently, then that's moreeffective.
And then that also ties in onemore You're getting a lot of
takeaways, one that is soimportant and I'm sure you've
had a lot of guests talk aboutthis before in the Gottman
approach.
It's that gentle startup rightJust expressing feelings and
(30:15):
needs, right Talking about yourown, what's going on for you in
a certain situation, how you'refeeling about it and what you
would need instead for things tobe better.
That's another crucial, youknow.
Soften your startup and, withthat positive habit of mine in
the background, it makes thatall go, you know, smoother
(30:39):
sometimes there's just thelittle things, right, guys.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Hi, dave, do you find that too, my friend?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
absolutely small things in your own marriage.
That's it.
That's exactly it.
Wow.
Well, stacy, let me ask you uma couple questions we we like to
ask all of our our guests.
The first one is with yourpersonal knowledge, your
experience, your professionalbackground, what do you feel
like is a a key to a strongermarriage connection?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
so we have the.
I don't know if anybody's evertalked about the six hours a
week or the magic six hoursbefore on the podcast.
Go ahead, say more.
Yeah.
So in the Gottman research wefound that successful couples
are really spending six hoursdedicated to their relationship
every week and that's broken upinto different chunks and
segments.
Maybe a date night is a couplehours, or just connecting at the
(31:31):
end of the day and talkingabout what happened in your day,
what were the highs and lows.
That that's going to add upprobably to an hour throughout
the week, those littleconnections.
Sometimes they're bigger, likea date night or having a longer
chat on a weekend.
Six hours dedicated to therelationship, and that's kind of
(31:53):
a minimum.
I would imagine if I neverreally have counted I'd have to
get my stopwatch going, but I'msure my husband and I are way
above that.
I will say we don't have kids,we have dogs, and so we go for
walks with the dogs and we talkand we have a lot of that kind
of downtime.
(32:14):
So we have a little bit more ofthat flexibility.
But that focus on that it's areally important time to turn
toward and connect those sixhours.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
So that's one thing that's really helpful.
I'm sure that is, and I thinkthat for some couples they're
like six hours, right, I don'teven get 15 minutes this week or
whatever the craziness of thethings that are going on.
But you're right, yeah, it does.
You have to carve out,intentionally carve out time,
quality, quantity, time.
So, thank you, yeah, love that.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
So, stacey, where can our listeners go to find out
more about you, this tremendousresource for singles?
It's called, it's called.
What is it called again?
Lessons in Love, lessons inLove.
I love it and all the othergreat resources you have for
helping couples in general, andthen we're going to share that
on our show notes.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Oh great.
So there's a couple of ways sopeople can get in touch with me
directly.
My website is my name, stacyHubbardcom, so I've got a lot of
information there.
You can contact me through thewebsite, then the Gottman
Institute so Gottmancom.
The Gottman Institute, sogottmancom.
And you'll see on the main pagewhen you log in there's a
(33:36):
singles dropdown and there'sgoing to be information about
upcoming workshops.
So I've got one coming up inSeptember and then people are
starting to put those on allover the world and so it'll say
live events and you click onthat and it'll show you the
calendar of all the singlescourses that are happening all
over the world.
Because we have developed acourse, a leader's course, so
(33:59):
that anybody you don't even haveto be a therapist or a
psychologist it could be a lifecoach, a pastor, a mentor, a
chaplain, and so you can takethat course and be approved to
teach and you'll have access toall the content.
We have a really nice manualthat we've created over the
years and a lot of extra toolsand videos, and so that's the
(34:24):
main hub is just going to theGottman website and like one
that singles drop down and orreaching out to me.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Awesome and we will do that.
How cool is that.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
You know, can I just ask Stacey?
It seems like that's probablythe only program right that
really anyone could teach.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Yes, it's similar to the seven principles for couples
, right?
So there's the trainer coursefor seven principles for couples
, and that's something, again,anybody could train in and to be
able to facilitate thosecouples seven principles courses
then we added the singles trainthe trainer or the leader
(35:05):
course so that people can betrained to teach the seven
principles courses.
Then we added this singlestrain the trainer or the leader
course so that people can betrained to teach the specific
content for singles.
And I will say, even with thesingles term obviously is
important.
But sometimes there's what wecall individuals.
Right, they're in arelationship but for whatever
(35:28):
reason, maybe they want to workon their ability to show up in
relationship or beef up theirskills.
So sometimes the people who arein those workshops might be
they're in a relationship, butthey're coming solo, so they're
individuals.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
So it can be either or Is the seven principles the
same as lessons in love or arethey two different, distinct,
distinctly different courses?
Then they cover differenttopics.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Well, the focus in the seven P or some principles
for couples is that you'reshowing, you're going with a
partner to that, or you'retraining to teach those to
couples versus the singlescourse.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Same principles right .
Same principles, I suppose,apply.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Roughly yes, obviously, with the singles
course there's a focus on dating.
There's a focus onunderstanding those trust you
know the phases of relationship,how to determine who you can
trust, like kind of emotionallysafe people looking for signs of
trustworthiness and thatthere's also that focus on the
(36:43):
dating content, in addition tothe bigger, the principles that
apply.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
All right, that's very cool.
Learned so much.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, and we'll put these links to the courses for
our listeners in the show notes,as Liz mentioned.
Hey, stacey, before we wrap upour time together, we like to
ask another question that is atakeaway of the day.
Is there a take home messagethat you want our listeners to
remember from our discussiontoday?
Speaker 3 (37:11):
it is.
Would that be something we'vealready talked about?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
it could be.
Yeah, if there's something youwant to re-emphasize and say,
hey, yes, from all that wetalked about, this is what
listeners should.
I want them to remember.
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
yeah, with the focus on the fondness and admiration
system in relationship, thatthat applies to all again, all
relationships.
So we know successful couplesand just successful people have
the ability to have thatpositive habit of mind and to
notice kind of what they admireand appreciate in their lives
and with their people theyinteract with and they're
(37:45):
sharing that people theyinteract with and they're
sharing that.
Those are successful people inrelationships, in friendships,
in life that focus on thepositive habit of mind and
sharing what you appreciate andadmire about the people in your
life and what you have that youcan be thankful for in your life
.
It just is a game changer.
(38:06):
So that's something I try tofocus on every day.
It's really helpful.
It's not always easy, but it'simportant.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Oh man, yeah, that fondness and admiration, amen,
yeah, liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway?
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well that was it, that positive habit of mind.
I've not heard that phrasebefore, stacey.
It used to be somethingdifferent.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
No, not that I know of.
And so one thing that we needto know and this wasn't Gottman
research, this was some researchdone out of Israel it's
completely separate frommarriage per se.
But the people, just people whohave the positive habit of mind
, live seven years longerBecause, for example, if they
(38:49):
get cut off in traffic right,somebody cut them off they can
kind of just let it go and saylike they must be hurt, I'm not,
I'm okay, nobody's hurt, it'sokay.
And I'm assuming that hassomething to do with heightened
physiology and being able tojust allow, instead of getting
heightened, and to be able tojust say oh no, I'm good, I'm
(39:12):
not in a hurry, I'm okay, that.
So there's something there withthat.
Just the mentality that peoplewith that positive habit of mind
bring to life, gratitude, I'massuming it has a lot to do with
that as well.
It's kind of a bigger conceptoutside of, per se, the Gottman
research.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Yeah, I appreciate that so much and I also I guess
my takeaway, dear Dave, might be.
You know it's what Stacey wassaying about.
You know, I don't really gushvery well about my husband.
It's just not my natural thingand I would like to be better at
that.
When you say, stacey, like I'mso lucky my husband's in my life
(39:53):
, you know I'm so lucky, we'reso blessed, and I feel that way,
and I imagine you say that soyour husband can hear, I think
that's really probably mytakeaways.
That's just so beautiful.
I do believe that whatever wefocus on definitely grows and we
see more evidence of it.
So that's my takeaway.
I'm going to stay with that onefor the rest of the day.
Dave, what about you?
What's the most crucial insightwe've discussed today do you
(40:13):
think, with our guest StaceyHubbard, that you hope we all
take to heart?
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah, thanks Liz and Stacey.
Yeah, this has been interestingto think about.
It's just a different lensright For singles who maybe are
struggling and they're datingfor fun or they're dating for
marriage.
But just these principles, Ithink, are critical.
I want to piggyback on whatboth of you have talked about
with that positive habit of mind.
I've actually heard I need tokind of verify this, I guess but
(40:39):
we're bored with about fivetimes as many neurons or brain
cells that are wired fornegativity and threat for every
one brain cell that's wired forpositivity and opportunity.
So we already have thisnegativity bias.
I think that, even so, we seesomeone, even online, and we
make a snap judgment, probablylike less than a half a second,
(41:00):
and like, okay, would they begood, Are they cute or just
based on physical appearance.
But I think that whole idea ofthat friendship my wife, we did
it in high school, Since ourjunior year in chemistry class.
That's another story foranother time, but it was just
like Of course it was chemistryclass, that's true, it was
chemistry.
(41:20):
There was a lot of chemistrygoing on in that class, but we
were just like the best offriends.
We just hung out together.
We had so much fun together.
I didn't even kiss her for likesix months.
Of friends, we just hung outtogether.
We had so much fun together.
I didn't even like kiss her forlike six months or something.
It was just so much fun.
And I think they base that onfun, on commonality and keeping
things light, not gettingphysical too fast.
(41:41):
Those, I think, will come tomind for singles who are in this
Don't rush things, don't jumpin too fast.
But, yeah, look for the keep itkind of fun instead of physical
, yeah, too fast.
Anyway, it's been a.
It's been a great, a greatdiscussion.
Thank you, thanks, stacy.
Thanks for coming on, takingtime from Oregon.
(42:02):
Right To be able to come on andshare some, some tips and some
tools for us or our listenersand some tools for us.
Absolutely For our listenerstoday.
So thanks again.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
It's been fun.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yes, well, that's it for now, friends.
We will see you again next time.
Thanks for joining us.
See you next time on anotherepisode of the Stronger Marriage
Connection podcast.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Indeed, we will and remember.
It's the small and simplethings that create a stronger
marriage connection.
Take good care now.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(42:56):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, If you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(43:17):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(43:41):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
Dr Liz and I typically tackle topics to help
couples, but today we bring on atherapist who offers help and
hope for singles who are datingfor fun or longing for love and
marriage.
On today's episode, we welcomeStacey Hubbard to the show to
talk about tips for singles whenit comes to fun, trust,
commitment and so much more.
Our guest today is StaceyHubbard, a licensed marriage and
(00:26):
family therapist with over 25years of experience helping
individuals and couples thrive.
She earned her master's incounseling from Portland State
University and has spent thepast two decades using the
Gottman Method, becomingcertified 13 years ago and a
master trainer with the GottmanInstitute in 2016.
Years ago and a master trainerwith the Gottman Institute in
(00:47):
2016.
Stacey trains other therapists,works with couples in therapy
and even teaches a singlescourse she developed based on
the Gottman approach.
She lives on 10 beautiful acresnear Ashland, oregon, with her
husband and their four dogs, andloves hiking, kayaking, sports
and travel.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
We hope you enjoy the show.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection.
I'm psychologist Dr Liz Hale,along with the beloved professor
Dr Dave Schramm.
Together we have dedicated ourlife's work to bringing you the
best we have in valid maritalresearch, along with a few tips
(01:26):
and tools to help you create themarriage of your dreams.
Well, today's segment, dave, Ilove this topic.
We're dedicating it to singles.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
So good.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Today's guest.
It is so good.
Today's guest and I havesomething in common we were both
single for a very long time,even as practicing marriage and
family therapist, so she's awoman after my own heart.
What I greatly admire aboutStacey Hubbard is that she took
matters into her own hands.
As a licensed marriagetherapist, a certified Gottman
therapist and a master trainerfor them, she teamed up with the
(01:56):
Gottmans and many of their keyleaders to create an intensive
workshop for singles dedicatedto building healthier
relationships in the world.
So we're going to talk abouthealthy dating with the support
of science and more Stacey.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection.
The way we date really mattersdoesn't it.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Yes, it does.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm going to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yes and how?
So?
How does dating, how we date,how does that really matter?
In a nutshell, yes and how?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
so?
How does dating, how we date,how does that really matter?
In a nutshell, well, one thingthat I've really learned in
creating this workshop forsingles and all the time I've
worked with couples and singlesthroughout the decades here is
just the importance of buildingfriendship at the beginning of
dating and really and taking itslow, I mean that's one thing
(02:46):
that we can talk more about, thekind of science behind why
that's important.
But building friendship andfondness and admiration,
creating love maps when you'renew into dating somebody, and,
as we'll talk about theprinciples that we really focus
on in the Gottman approach andin the singles course, is that
(03:08):
you want to be able to applythese skills to friendships, to
family relationships, tocoworkers.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Any relationship.
I love this.
I don't know why I didn't thinkabout this before, stacey, we'd
all love to hear.
How did this start?
This is called Lessons in Lovefor Singles.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
You and your marriage status played a crucial role as
well, as did the doorman in aManhattan hotel.
So I was teaching a couplesworkshop in New York City, in
Manhattan, and it's the Art andScience of Love, the couples
workshop, right.
So I was facilitating that.
But the doorman at the hotelwas asking about the content in
(03:55):
the workshop and so I told himall about it and he was really
excited and he said can I go toone of those?
And I said, well, actually youhave to have a partner.
And he said, oh, that's too bad, I don't have a partner right
now and I think this would begood for me to learn all this
stuff.
And I said, yeah, well, best ofluck.
And again, at that time I wassingle.
So this was 10 years ago now.
(04:18):
So, on the flight back home so Ilive in Oregon, so I was flying
on a red-eye back to Oregon andI was like, well, you know what
?
That doorman has?
A good point, this is importantcontent.
And there's no.
At that point there was nointeractive, actual workshop for
(04:38):
single people.
So I said, well, let's thinkabout how this could work and I
sort of created an outline andtalked with Dr Dave Penner, who
was the clinical director at theGottman Institute for a very
long time, and he wasimmediately like yep, sounds,
kind of get it up to where it isnow, but that was the origin
(05:09):
story.
So you know, a doorman and ared-eye flight home.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Be nice if we could find that doorman.
Right.
Yeah, I got to say good news.
Whether he's married or single,we got something for him Right,
right, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Married or single.
We got something for him Right.
Yeah, that's right, stacey.
The main goal in helpingsingles is to help them date in
order to help them marry, but sothis suggests that maybe dating
to marry isn't always, I guess,the goal in the dating world.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Is that right?
Yeah, good question.
So it's kind of broad, becausesome people are dating to marry,
absolutely they're looking forcommitment and to build a life
with somebody, and some peopleare maybe just wanting to more
casually date, or they're notsure what they want, or they
have come out of a kind of adifficult or traumatic
(06:00):
relationship and they just wantto explore dating, or maybe
they're newly divorced and theywant to start dipping their toe
back in.
So there's a wide range ofpeople that take the course.
Um, but the the I think the keypart is how those principles
that we learn in the workshoptranslate again to all
(06:25):
friendships, familyrelationships, etc.
Etc.
And some of the science behindtrust and building trust and how
the early phases of dating.
When you're in that we call itthe honeymoon phase there's this
oxytocin haze that kind oftakes over.
(06:48):
There's those sort of dopamineand all these chemicals that
flood our system and it feelsreally good and that's awesome.
And also when you have highlevels of oxytocin you are more
trusting.
So there's some research behindthat.
So that's why it's importantand we encourage people to take
things slow, to not kind of rushinto a bigger commitment in
(07:10):
that early honeymoon phase Longanswer, but hopefully that makes
sense.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, it makes sense for sure.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I just love this concept that the Gottmans, their
great research, can apply toany relationship single, married
as well.
And how can singles set thatfoundation for love Stacey?
What are the common datingpractices?
Speaker 3 (07:32):
maybe that even should be avoided workshop and
in the research that I did forthe workshop is to, you know,
take things slowly, meaningdating, but also keeping in mind
(07:56):
the five signs of trust.
So these are Dr Gottman's sortof five signs of trustworthiness
that he writes about in thebook what Makes Love Last, which
is one of my favorites.
So there is honesty,transparency, proof of alliance,
meaning that person will haveyour back and be there for you
when you need them.
Ethical actions oh, now, I'mforgetting how to trust
(08:29):
Transparency, ethical, ethicalactions group of alliance.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Uh, yeah, I'm gonna have to look at that.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Four and a five, though that's beautiful so that
takes time to to kind of buildand to really dig into can I
trust this person?
Do that kind of?
The essence is are they goingto have my back?
Will they be there for me?
Can I count on them?
Do I matter?
And that does take time.
So, with that in mind,encouraging people to take
(08:59):
things slow and also kind ofkeep in touch with their friends
or family, invite them in like,hey, meet this person I'm
dating.
Or I'm processing and talkingwith my friends when I'm dating
about this person and are theytrustworthy?
Because that really is socrucial.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
That is very cool.
Accountability might have beenthe other one, accountability,
thank you.
Yeah, that's cool.
I had to look it up, so thatwas really very cool.
It's very powerful actually.
And you know, I have to behonest with you, I didn't date
my husband a long time before wemarried and some of these
things, thank goodness, kind ofshowed up after the fact.
You know what I mean.
But I am grateful for when theydo show up every single day.
(09:35):
It just deepens that love andaffection.
But do we have any idea howlong it might take then to
foster this?
I didn't follow any kind ofparticular rule, stacey.
Is there a rule for how longone should date according to
Gottman's, to be able to maybesee some of these things before
you make that big commitment?
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Sure.
So there's not a hard and fastrule but what we know, that
oxytocin kind of haze, or thedopamine, that whole honeymoon
phase.
It was anywhere from like sixmonths to a year, year and a
half, um, so anywhere in thatrange, I mean once there's
really you're getting over thewhat we call that haze, which
(10:17):
again it's fun, it feels goodand I always say thank heavens
that it ends at some pointbecause otherwise nothing would
get done in the world.
Right, it's hard to focus, youjust think about that person all
the time.
So when that starts to kind offade, again, that's where you're
starting to build trust andfigure out do they have my back
(10:37):
and are they accountable?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
So that range six months, a year and a half is is
usually a good marker wow, thattakes some time, doesn't it that
that was just for the haze towear off.
Did I get that right?
Speaker 3 (10:54):
yeah, and again, that's different for everyone,
so there's no hard and fast rule.
Um, yeah, yeah nice.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I mean thinking about that.
It gives people an opportunityto see them in different
situations outside of just thefun and the love.
You see, okay, yeah, maybe whenwe go out or we there's money
involved doing purchasing andhabits, and then you see them
maybe when they're tired andcranky and not just yeah, bing,
they look like a million bucksevery time, and so you get to
(11:22):
see them a different, maybe evenseason to season of time of day
and weeks and months, as thatgoes on, as you develop that
friendship and that trust, likeyou're saying.
But yeah, I agree with Liz,kind of that, just kind of
depends.
It feels like some just take alittle bit longer than others
but really making time to get toknow that person Beyond the
(11:45):
superficial right Know thatperson.
We'll be right back after thisbrief message and we're back.
Let's dive right in.
(12:06):
Let's talk about the uh, threephases of of love.
You you mentioned this.
I'm assuming this is part ofthe workshop as well.
Phase one you talk about is islimerence, and that is a
probably a term that very few,unless you're like going to, you
know the school and you'retaking human development, family
studies, types, classes orthings.
Can you explain what limerenceis?
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yeah, so limerence is that technical term for the
honeymoon phase, when you are inthat oxytocin, dopamine,
serotonin haze that it kind offeels like a drug because it is
right.
It's that pleasure center inyour brain releasing those you
know chemicals and hormones.
Uh, so it is that early phasewhen everything is wonderful and
(12:48):
you can.
You'll think about that personall the time and you like the
way they smell and you can'twait to be with them and that
kind of that attraction.
So that's the first phase.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And then what about phase two, what about phase
three?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
So, that is the all important trust building phase.
So this is where people aretrying to determine does my
partner have my back, can Icount on them, are they going to
be there for me?
And so Dr Gottman, when he waswriting what Makes Love Last, he
went back and reviewed all theresearch and his recordings in
(13:26):
early research and really whatcouples were saying in that kind
of all-important phase is theywere kind of saying like do you
have my back?
In a nutshell, and so theimportance of trust building is
that.
That's kind of where youdetermine that Now.
So that's the phase where themost fighting occurs in that
(13:50):
early stage, because not that italways happens.
Sometimes that trust buildingis really smooth and it's really
obvious.
But that can be where the mostfighting occurs because people
are trying to like am Iimportant to you, do I matter?
So that is an importanttransition that a lot of people
(14:11):
don't, they're not aware of itor they may skip to the third
phase, which is commitment,without truly building trust.
So I had a couple that I workedwith where they went kind of
from the oxytocin, got engagedreally early, jumped to the
commitment, but they didn'tbuild that trust and so I was in
(14:33):
.
Luckily, we were in therapybefore they got married.
They were engaged, but theywere really having all that
fighting and when we looked atthe three phases from a bigger
perspective, they realized like,oh, we got to slow this down,
we didn't build trust, we needto build trust, and so we worked
on that in therapy.
So the trust building oh sorry,good question.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Well, that's interesting.
So you can actually kind of gobackwards and pick up where,
pick up what we jumped over?
Yep, yeah, absolutely.
And how did you do that?
I'm curious what?
What did you do to help thiscouple?
What did they do?
Was it a matter of puttingthemselves in different
scenarios, like Dave suggests?
Speaker 3 (15:14):
I think that's such a great idea um, so that was part
of it, what we had to do,because one way to build trust
is attuning to your partner'snegative emotions, which is
important, and there are timeswhere people have what we call a
meta emotion mismatch.
So what that means is metaemotion is how you feel about
(15:37):
feelings.
Right, and so if there's amismatch and one person really
wants to talk about and processfeelings and the other person is
kind of dismissive or avoidantof feelings, that can be a big
clash.
And so part of that with thatcouple was actually digging into
the meta emotion history foreach of them and trying to build
(16:01):
the ability for both partnersto attune, which means turn
toward your partner when theyhave negative emotions, when
they are sad or scared or angry.
So that's a way to build trustin relationship.
We also worked a lot on some ofthe friendship stuff around
(16:23):
fondness and admiration and justreally slowing that down.
So that's right, it's been awhile, but that's what I
remember anyways.
That is very cool.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And did they end up getting married?
Sorry, I'm so curious.
Did that couple?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, from what I remember, yes, I'm going to say
yes, yes, they definitely gotmarried.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
That is very cool.
Yeah, thanks, lindyann, excuseme, I should have asked this
earlier.
Give me a better sense of thethe workshops themselves length.
Are they virtual?
Are they in person?
Uh, you know the couple orsingles.
I guess you know the audiencesize, those types of things yeah
.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
So let me give a kind of a history and that'll answer
your question.
So in we did our first actualworkshop in person in summer
2016 in Seattle, and so that wasDr Dave Penner and myself and
that was kind of our testworkshop and that was, I would
say, I think, 20, somewhere inthat range 25 people, because
(17:22):
that was our pilot and it gotreally good feedback.
So we made some adjustments andthen started doing bigger and
bigger in-person workshops inSeattle.
They were always in Seattle, soI would fly up there and Dave
and I would present together.
Those grew to.
Our biggest one was, I think wehad a little over 100 people in
the room and then we did alsohave a live stream at the same
(17:45):
time of 200 people from all overthe world.
So that was our biggest one.
And then this is all kind ofleading up to COVID.
So from like 2016 to 2019, early2020, we were doing them in
person.
Into 2019, early 2020, we weredoing them in person.
So we did our last in-personone in.
(18:08):
It was actually late February,early March 2020.
And then we transitioned intodoing them on Zoom and now we do
them.
Usually it's around probably 60people on Zoom when we do them
through the Institute, but 60people on zoom when we do them
through the institute.
But people are now beingtrained to present them on their
own, like there's a leadercourse that people can take to
(18:30):
teach other singles or, you know, to teach singles how, um, how
to be effective in relationship,and so those are both virtual
and in personperson, so it'sboth options at this point, okay
.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, it helps kind of set allthis context up for what you're
curious about.
Just your go-to tips.
Do you have there's singlesmaybe listening right now and
they're like, okay, you know,I've got to.
You know it's the honeymoonphase and then learning to trust
and then commitment?
Do you have any kind of go-totips for singles who are
(19:09):
listening or maybe in the midstand they're a little hesitant?
Or man, they've been in thisfor now it feels like for years
and I'm going through the cycle.
Nobody good out there anymore.
What tips do you have?
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yep.
So one important thing is theimportance of mate value versus
unique value.
So this was from research doneat the University of Texas and
this is the difference betweenmate value and unique value is
this Mate value is that initial,immediate first impression of
(19:43):
somebody, almost like anattraction or almost like an
animal attraction to somebody,versus the unique value is
something that develops a littlebit more slowly and over time
where you start to realize, oh,they're really funny or we have
a lot of things in common and oh, I feel the same way about that
kind of like the values, theinterest that that may take a
(20:06):
little more time to sort ofdevelop, um, and that that's
actually how my husband and Igot together.
So you know, in terms of mystory, if I can insert that here
is, I was so a single for eightyears in my 40s, also living in
a smaller town in Oregon, not alot of options.
(20:29):
It was difficult.
I always normalize that forpeople, dating is hard, internet
dating hard, all of it.
It's difficult.
It's a process you got to behardy and sturdy to to persist,
um, but so I was kind of, yeah,my late 40s and my husband at, I
(20:50):
mean, obviously we were justfriends at the time, but we we
went to the same crossfit gymand we got to know each other
over years like littleconversations at the gym.
We started then then going togroup outings, you know we would
go like a bunch of us would goto a movie or a concert or we
went like axe throwing and youknow comedy shows, that kind of
stuff.
So over time, you know, we kindof started to figure out we did
(21:14):
have a lot in common, had a lotof the same kind of values and
goals and beliefs, and so wekind of that kind of slowly
evolved and we, yeah, so starteddating and got married.
And so that's one importantthing is that I guess the the
long and the short of that iswhen, when dating, to kind of
(21:35):
have that more approach aboutlike discovering the unique
value of somebody, if that makessense yes, yeah, and friendship
.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I mean, what a sweet beginning to have.
That kind of association didn'tstart off as romantic, right.
It was just we were, you know,we were like-minded, a bit
worked out of the same place andsingles got together.
I think that's just really abeautiful love story.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Yeah, we're pretty lucky.
We say that every day.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Pretty lucky, yeah, and even then, right, even then,
marriage is still work, right,we talked about dating as work
and being online dating as work.
I met my husband online as well, and I wouldn't have met, I
wouldn't have dated without that, because we're not going to
date our clients, right, we'reseeing married people for
starters.
Plus, we're not going to dateour clients, but it's just like
(22:26):
where do you meet?
Where do singles meet?
So what were the?
Okay, stacey, do you mind?
What were some of the surprisesin marriage?
Even then, even when you're sotrained and did the single
program, were there any?
I certainly had my share.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Oh yeah, yep, it's uh ongoing people always, yeah,
it's, it's hard it there.
We are very lucky and blessed,uh, to have found each other,
but there are still hard moments, um of you know, learning how
to manage conflict and eachother's styles of conflict and
(23:03):
styles of emotion and how thoseare expressed, because we have a
different family history.
So we always say in the GottmanMethod, every relationship is a
cross-cultural experience,because it doesn't matter if you
grew up on the same street,same religion, race, culture, if
you, you know, you grew up in adifferent family, household
(23:24):
with different beliefs, values,rituals, symbols, etc.
So it takes some time to get toknow that in a lot of
discussions, how things shouldgo.
And then life stressors andlearning how to manage
conversations about that.
Learning how to manageconversations about that.
So I'm, you know, even being ahighly trained marriage
(23:45):
therapist.
There's still conflicts we haveto work through, you know.
So repair is probably one of myfavorites kind of two ways you
know from what I, when I workwith singles and couples, is
being able to repair, either inthe moment or after the fact.
Saying things like I didn'tmean for it to come out that way
(24:08):
.
I regret what I said earlier.
Can we talk?
Or hey, let's slow this down.
Things are getting a littleheated.
I want to understand what'sgoing on for you, somehow kind
of reaching across that divideto keep the conversation going.
Those repair tactics are reallyhelpful.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And did he also like the Gottman approach?
My husband?
He's not read one marriage book, right, it's just not his thing
.
Nor does he really need to, inmy belief system anyway.
So it's when I just kind ofkeep myself in check things go
so much better.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
But was he interested ?
Did you do trainings together?
I'm so curious, good question.
So he doesn't formally have anykind of understanding of when
we talk about the Gottman Method.
He actually kind of follows theGottmans on social media and so
he kind of understanding ofwhen we talk about the Gottman
method.
He actually kind of follows theGottman's on on social media
and so he kind of sees more ofthat stuff than I do, cause I
don't really do social media.
But he, so his, hisunderstanding of it is is kind
(25:13):
of rudimentary.
But what I will say, he, withoutknowing it, was doing a lot of
this work before we starteddating, like learning how to be
a good listener, how to ask good, open-ended questions and be
kind of a more curious listener.
He was doing a lot of that workon himself before we even got
together and having his own kindof self-care practices,
(25:39):
physical activity and Tai Chi,and so he kind of has a
different approach to it.
And then now he's actually nowa certified alcohol and drug
counselor.
He um kind of had a careerchange which he's sort of in the
same field but with a differentfocus.
Um, so yeah, we, yeah, we havea lot of a lot in common, and a
(26:00):
lot of differences too, but it'sgreat.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
No wonder you kind of found each other.
You were both interested inreally self-improvement, you
know, and trying to understand,to show up as the best kind of
human being that you can.
That's quite lovely.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in okay, let's, let's.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Let's just ask one more here.
Sorry hogging the time here.
What about a favorite tool foreither singles or couples?
So you mentioned the reparativework.
I love that.
I love the repair checklistthat the gotmans have had for
years.
My, my checklist is so old thatI give to every couple I work
with, but I love it.
What other tools do you findhelpful, whether you're single
(26:54):
or married?
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yep, great.
So one thing that I wanted tomention is that in that third
phase of relationship, thecommitment phase, is in that
phase when you really commit tosomebody, it's kind of believing
and acting on the belief thatthis is my person and we're
going to get through the hardtimes.
In that phase we see thatcouples, when they're doing it
(27:20):
successfully we call this truecommitment they are cherishing,
so they're thinkingpro-relationship thoughts
instead of trashing or negativerelationship thoughts or
comparisons.
So that's one thing that Ireally try to do every day, if I
can, is to think cherishingthoughts and pro-relationship
(27:44):
thoughts of positive comparisons.
So it sort of looks like thisI'm so lucky my partner is in my
life, I'm so happy because heis like blank, blank versus why
does he do that?
I wish he was more likeso-and-so or why can't he be
more like somebody else, real orimagined?
(28:04):
That is crucial in having thistrue commitment versus that kind
of conditional commitment whichinvolves those negative
comparisons.
So that's one thing.
And then another that's sort oftied really closely with
fondness and admiration is beingable to have the positive habit
(28:25):
of mind.
So the positive habit of mindis so you imagine walking into a
room and scanning foreverything that's good,
everything you like in that room, and really focusing on and
commenting on that Instead ofthe negative habit of mind.
Imagine you're walking into aroom and just looking for
everything that you don't like,everything that's off or wrong,
(28:47):
wrong, and really focusing onthat.
So in relationship it's thesame.
You're scanning yourrelationship, your social
environment for things that youappreciate, love, admire, that
you respect, and then you'recalling those out and pointing
those out.
Versus walking into that,thinking about your relationship
and just scanning for thethings that you don't like, that
(29:09):
critical, negative habit ofmind.
I don't like that.
Stop doing that, don't do that.
That really shifts thingstoward that negative perspective
versus in that positive habitof mind, with that scanning for
positive, commenting and lettingyour partner know or again,
even friends, kids, coworkers.
(29:32):
Then when you need to ask forsomething to be different or you
have a concern or a request,it's a lot easier for the other
person to kind of hear that andgo, yeah, that makes sense.
You have a kind of a wellstored up we call it that
emotional bank account stored upwhere you could say, hey, this
(29:53):
isn't working for me, can wetalk about how to do it
differently, then that's moreeffective.
And then that also ties in onemore You're getting a lot of
takeaways, one that is soimportant and I'm sure you've
had a lot of guests talk aboutthis before in the Gottman
approach.
It's that gentle startup rightJust expressing feelings and
(30:15):
needs, right Talking about yourown, what's going on for you in
a certain situation, how you'refeeling about it and what you
would need instead for things tobe better.
That's another crucial, youknow.
Soften your startup and, withthat positive habit of mine in
the background, it makes thatall go, you know, smoother
(30:39):
sometimes there's just thelittle things, right, guys.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Hi, dave, do you find that too, my friend?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
absolutely small things in your own marriage.
That's it.
That's exactly it.
Wow.
Well, stacy, let me ask you uma couple questions we we like to
ask all of our our guests.
The first one is with yourpersonal knowledge, your
experience, your professionalbackground, what do you feel
like is a a key to a strongermarriage connection?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
so we have the.
I don't know if anybody's evertalked about the six hours a
week or the magic six hoursbefore on the podcast.
Go ahead, say more.
Yeah.
So in the Gottman research wefound that successful couples
are really spending six hoursdedicated to their relationship
every week and that's broken upinto different chunks and
segments.
Maybe a date night is a couplehours, or just connecting at the
(31:31):
end of the day and talkingabout what happened in your day,
what were the highs and lows.
That that's going to add upprobably to an hour throughout
the week, those littleconnections.
Sometimes they're bigger, likea date night or having a longer
chat on a weekend.
Six hours dedicated to therelationship, and that's kind of
(31:53):
a minimum.
I would imagine if I neverreally have counted I'd have to
get my stopwatch going, but I'msure my husband and I are way
above that.
I will say we don't have kids,we have dogs, and so we go for
walks with the dogs and we talkand we have a lot of that kind
of downtime.
(32:14):
So we have a little bit more ofthat flexibility.
But that focus on that it's areally important time to turn
toward and connect those sixhours.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
So that's one thing that's really helpful.
I'm sure that is, and I thinkthat for some couples they're
like six hours, right, I don'teven get 15 minutes this week or
whatever the craziness of thethings that are going on.
But you're right, yeah, it does.
You have to carve out,intentionally carve out time,
quality, quantity, time.
So, thank you, yeah, love that.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
So, stacey, where can our listeners go to find out
more about you, this tremendousresource for singles?
It's called, it's called.
What is it called again?
Lessons in Love, lessons inLove.
I love it and all the othergreat resources you have for
helping couples in general, andthen we're going to share that
on our show notes.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Oh great.
So there's a couple of ways sopeople can get in touch with me
directly.
My website is my name, stacyHubbardcom, so I've got a lot of
information there.
You can contact me through thewebsite, then the Gottman
Institute so Gottmancom.
The Gottman Institute, sogottmancom.
And you'll see on the main pagewhen you log in there's a
(33:36):
singles dropdown and there'sgoing to be information about
upcoming workshops.
So I've got one coming up inSeptember and then people are
starting to put those on allover the world and so it'll say
live events and you click onthat and it'll show you the
calendar of all the singlescourses that are happening all
over the world.
Because we have developed acourse, a leader's course, so
(33:59):
that anybody you don't even haveto be a therapist or a
psychologist it could be a lifecoach, a pastor, a mentor, a
chaplain, and so you can takethat course and be approved to
teach and you'll have access toall the content.
We have a really nice manualthat we've created over the
years and a lot of extra toolsand videos, and so that's the
(34:24):
main hub is just going to theGottman website and like one
that singles drop down and orreaching out to me.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Awesome and we will do that.
How cool is that.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
You know, can I just ask Stacey?
It seems like that's probablythe only program right that
really anyone could teach.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Yes, it's similar to the seven principles for couples
, right?
So there's the trainer coursefor seven principles for couples
, and that's something, again,anybody could train in and to be
able to facilitate thosecouples seven principles courses
then we added the singles trainthe trainer or the leader
(35:05):
course so that people can betrained to teach the seven
principles courses.
Then we added this singlestrain the trainer or the leader
course so that people can betrained to teach the specific
content for singles.
And I will say, even with thesingles term obviously is
important.
But sometimes there's what wecall individuals.
Right, they're in arelationship but for whatever
(35:28):
reason, maybe they want to workon their ability to show up in
relationship or beef up theirskills.
So sometimes the people who arein those workshops might be
they're in a relationship, butthey're coming solo, so they're
individuals.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
So it can be either or Is the seven principles the
same as lessons in love or arethey two different, distinct,
distinctly different courses?
Then they cover differenttopics.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Well, the focus in the seven P or some principles
for couples is that you'reshowing, you're going with a
partner to that, or you'retraining to teach those to
couples versus the singlescourse.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Same principles right .
Same principles, I suppose,apply.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Roughly yes, obviously, with the singles
course there's a focus on dating.
There's a focus onunderstanding those trust you
know the phases of relationship,how to determine who you can
trust, like kind of emotionallysafe people looking for signs of
trustworthiness and thatthere's also that focus on the
(36:43):
dating content, in addition tothe bigger, the principles that
apply.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
All right, that's very cool.
Learned so much.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, and we'll put these links to the courses for
our listeners in the show notes,as Liz mentioned.
Hey, stacey, before we wrap upour time together, we like to
ask another question that is atakeaway of the day.
Is there a take home messagethat you want our listeners to
remember from our discussiontoday?
Speaker 3 (37:11):
it is.
Would that be something we'vealready talked about?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
it could be.
Yeah, if there's something youwant to re-emphasize and say,
hey, yes, from all that wetalked about, this is what
listeners should.
I want them to remember.
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
yeah, with the focus on the fondness and admiration
system in relationship, thatthat applies to all again, all
relationships.
So we know successful couplesand just successful people have
the ability to have thatpositive habit of mind and to
notice kind of what they admireand appreciate in their lives
and with their people theyinteract with and they're
(37:45):
sharing that people theyinteract with and they're
sharing that.
Those are successful people inrelationships, in friendships,
in life that focus on thepositive habit of mind and
sharing what you appreciate andadmire about the people in your
life and what you have that youcan be thankful for in your life
.
It just is a game changer.
(38:06):
So that's something I try tofocus on every day.
It's really helpful.
It's not always easy, but it'simportant.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Oh man, yeah, that fondness and admiration, amen,
yeah, liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway?
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well that was it, that positive habit of mind.
I've not heard that phrasebefore, stacey.
It used to be somethingdifferent.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
No, not that I know of.
And so one thing that we needto know and this wasn't Gottman
research, this was some researchdone out of Israel it's
completely separate frommarriage per se.
But the people, just people whohave the positive habit of mind
, live seven years longerBecause, for example, if they
(38:49):
get cut off in traffic right,somebody cut them off they can
kind of just let it go and saylike they must be hurt, I'm not,
I'm okay, nobody's hurt, it'sokay.
And I'm assuming that hassomething to do with heightened
physiology and being able tojust allow, instead of getting
heightened, and to be able tojust say oh no, I'm good, I'm
(39:12):
not in a hurry, I'm okay, that.
So there's something there withthat.
Just the mentality that peoplewith that positive habit of mind
bring to life, gratitude, I'massuming it has a lot to do with
that as well.
It's kind of a bigger conceptoutside of, per se, the Gottman
research.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Yeah, I appreciate that so much and I also I guess
my takeaway, dear Dave, might be.
You know it's what Stacey wassaying about.
You know, I don't really gushvery well about my husband.
It's just not my natural thingand I would like to be better at
that.
When you say, stacey, like I'mso lucky my husband's in my life
(39:53):
, you know I'm so lucky, we'reso blessed, and I feel that way,
and I imagine you say that soyour husband can hear, I think
that's really probably mytakeaways.
That's just so beautiful.
I do believe that whatever wefocus on definitely grows and we
see more evidence of it.
So that's my takeaway.
I'm going to stay with that onefor the rest of the day.
Dave, what about you?
What's the most crucial insightwe've discussed today do you
(40:13):
think, with our guest StaceyHubbard, that you hope we all
take to heart?
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah, thanks Liz and Stacey.
Yeah, this has been interestingto think about.
It's just a different lensright For singles who maybe are
struggling and they're datingfor fun or they're dating for
marriage.
But just these principles, Ithink, are critical.
I want to piggyback on whatboth of you have talked about
with that positive habit of mind.
I've actually heard I need tokind of verify this, I guess but
(40:39):
we're bored with about fivetimes as many neurons or brain
cells that are wired fornegativity and threat for every
one brain cell that's wired forpositivity and opportunity.
So we already have thisnegativity bias.
I think that, even so, we seesomeone, even online, and we
make a snap judgment, probablylike less than a half a second,
(41:00):
and like, okay, would they begood, Are they cute or just
based on physical appearance.
But I think that whole idea ofthat friendship my wife, we did
it in high school, Since ourjunior year in chemistry class.
That's another story foranother time, but it was just
like Of course it was chemistryclass, that's true, it was
chemistry.
(41:20):
There was a lot of chemistrygoing on in that class, but we
were just like the best offriends.
We just hung out together.
We had so much fun together.
I didn't even kiss her for likesix months.
Of friends, we just hung outtogether.
We had so much fun together.
I didn't even like kiss her forlike six months or something.
It was just so much fun.
And I think they base that onfun, on commonality and keeping
things light, not gettingphysical too fast.
(41:41):
Those, I think, will come tomind for singles who are in this
Don't rush things, don't jumpin too fast.
But, yeah, look for the keep itkind of fun instead of physical
, yeah, too fast.
Anyway, it's been a.
It's been a great, a greatdiscussion.
Thank you, thanks, stacy.
Thanks for coming on, takingtime from Oregon.
(42:02):
Right To be able to come on andshare some, some tips and some
tools for us or our listenersand some tools for us.
Absolutely For our listenerstoday.
So thanks again.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
It's been fun.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yes, well, that's it for now, friends.
We will see you again next time.
Thanks for joining us.
See you next time on anotherepisode of the Stronger Marriage
Connection podcast.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Indeed, we will and remember.
It's the small and simplethings that create a stronger
marriage connection.
Take good care now.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
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Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
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(42:56):
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marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(43:17):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(43:41):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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