June 30, 2025 • 44 mins
Dr. Steve Harris joins us to explain discernment counseling, a specialized approach helping couples gain clarity about whether to work on their marriage or move toward divorce.
• Developed at the University of Minnesota after research showed 30% of divorcing couples had at least one person who didn't want the divorce
• Differs from traditional couples therapy by focusing on decision-making clarity rather than relationship improvement
• Designed specifically for "mixed-agenda couples" where one partner wants to work on the marriage while the other is considering divorce
• Creates a structured space where ambivalence about the relationship is welcomed and explored
• Presents three paths: continuing the status quo, moving toward divorce, or committing to six months of intensive work on the relationship
• Typically runs 1-5 sessions with both joint and individual components
• Helps both partners recognize their own contributions to marital problems, not just their partner's failings
• Results show approximately 51% choose to work on their marriage, with 70-75% of those successfully repairing their relationship
• Even couples who ultimately divorce benefit from better understanding and communication
Visit MinnesotaCouplesOnTheBrink.org or discernmentcounseling.com to learn more and find trained counselors in your area.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Most couples experience all kinds of ups and
downs in their marriage andcountless couples have talked
about whether they should evenstay together.
On today's episode, professorand marriage therapist Dr Steve
Harris joins us to talk aboutdiscernment counseling and how
he can help both partners gainclarity about their options
moving forward, and the resultsjust might surprise you.
Stephen Harris received hismaster's and doctoral degrees in
(00:27):
marriage and family therapyfrom Syracuse University.
He is a professor in theDepartment of Family Social
Science at the University ofMinnesota.
He's been practicing as afamily therapist for over 30
years.
He's the past editor for theJournal of Marital and Family
Therapy and has authored over 95peer-reviewed articles and book
chapters and has written fourbooks.
Dr Harris also serves as thedirector of the Minnesota
(00:50):
Couples on the Brink Project atthe University of Minnesota.
He conducts research on themany facets of divorce,
decision-making and thediscernment counseling approach
he and his colleague, dr WilliamGordy pioneered of the
University of Minnesota.
They are currently working on arevision of their first
textbook on discernmentcounseling, originally published
(01:10):
in April 2017, that will bereleased in 2026.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey friends, welcome to anotherepisode of Stronger Marriage
Connection Podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity, alongside Dr Liz
Hale, our therapist, we'reaiming to bring you the very
(01:33):
best we have in research andresources and tips and tools to
help you create the marriage ofyour dreams.
Today we're taking a really, Imost important yet often
misunderstood approaches tohelping couples on the brink of
divorce discernment counseling.
(01:55):
Our guest today is a friend, acolleague, professor in marriage
and family therapist at theUniversity of Minnesota, who
I've known, actually for closeto two decades.
So we're looking forward to agreat discussion.
Welcome to the show, dr SteveHarris.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Yeah, we're anxious to jumpright in here, steve.
Steve, can we start morestepping back kind of big
(02:16):
picture to set up our discussiontoday?
Can you tell us whatdiscernment counseling is for
our listeners who are notfamiliar with what that is, and
why the need for discernmentcounseling is?
For our listeners who are notfamiliar with what that is and
why the need for discernmentcounseling?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, you bet I mean the model, the protocol.
I came out of some work that DrBill Doherty and myself did
here at the University ofMinnesota.
We were actually interviewingpeople or surveyed people who
were remanded to parenteducation classes, who were
going through divorce, parentswho had minor age children, and
(02:48):
one of the questions that weasked them was whether or not
they'd be open to any kind ofreconciliation services or if
they had an attitude aboutreconciliation at all.
So these are people who werealready in the divorce court
system.
They were moving along and thejudge was saying, hey, because
you have minor children, you'vegot to go in and kind of get
(03:10):
your act together to be on thesame page for your co-parenting.
Well, when we looked at theresults, there were about 30% of
those couples where at leastone person said I don't want
this divorce and they eitherspecified I'm interested in
making some changes myself orI'd be open to my If my partner
made changes.
I'd be open to seeing if wecould save our merit and one of
(03:30):
the things that we did with thatdata.
So we had 30% of the sample whosaid I'm not really interested
in getting a divorce and webelieve that that's probably a
fairly accurate number for mostpeople who are going through
divorce that there's usually oneperson who doesn't want it.
And when we look closer at thedata, one of the things that we
(03:51):
found is that we matched 10% ofthe couples where both people
were saying something like thatBoth people 10% of this group of
2000 plus people said I don'twant this divorce and I'd be
willing to work on my marriageif my partner or myself would
make changes.
So we believe that there's aportion of divorces out there
that could require somedifferent kind of an approach,
(04:11):
or portion of the marriages thatare in trouble, that are on the
brink of divorce, that couldeven benefit from some kind of
an approach where they couldtake one final look to see if
the relationship is worthsalvaging.
So in this Minnesota Couples onthe Bring project, one of our
goals is to help preventunnecessary divorce or premature
(04:33):
divorce decision-making, toprevent premature divorce
decisions, and that's reallykind of why we developed this
protocol.
You know, couples therapy is agreat modality for those people
who want to make changes intheir relationship.
But couples therapy reallyrelies on the fact that you have
two people both with the samekind of interest in moving in
(04:56):
the same direction, like both ofthem looking at each other,
saying we want to work on this.
We feel what we've got is worthsaving, worth enhancing, worth
helping us connect better.
So couples therapy is designedto help people increase their
connection, increase emotional,physical intimacy, help with
bonding, those kinds of things.
But that is really hard to dowhen one person is not sure that
(05:19):
they want to be in therelationship, and that's what we
developed this protocol for,specifically what we call mixed
agenda couples, a couple whereone person is leaning in, they
want the relationship to get toa healthier place, they want it
to be successful, they want toconnect and the other person
might be frankly leaning out,they might have a foot out the
door, they might have signed adivorce paper, an initiated
(05:41):
divorce, a divorce proceeding ofsome kind, or legal action, all
the way to those people who arejust somewhat ambivalent, just
not sure that they should stayin the relationship.
So while the goal of couplescounseling is to help facilitate
bonding and connection, thegoal of discernment counseling
is to help couples get greaterclarity and confidence in their
decision-making about the futureof their marriage, based on a
(06:04):
deeper understanding of how theygot to this point where divorce
is something that's a realpossibility and help them see
how they both have contributedto the marital problems.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's really the big nugget, would you say.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, I mean, that's the biggest thing.
When I'm on the phone withsomebody who's wondering whether
discernment counseling is theright approach, I often
highlight the differencesbetween typical counseling,
couples counseling, bonding andconnection versus this
discernment protocol, which isabout getting clarity, about
deciding on whether or not youwant to work on the relationship
, whether or not you have thecapacity and interest to work on
(06:40):
the relationship.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Very good.
So, dr Harris, let's talk aboutthe audience for discernment
counseling, please, who it's forand, maybe equally as important
, if not more important, whoit's not for.
I can attest that as acertified discernment counselor,
I've made some mistakes inreally not doing a very good
evaluation up upfront with myclients on the phone.
(07:05):
Yeah, and sometimes I agree,just pardon me, go ahead, you
got it.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
No, no.
Thanks Liz.
I appreciate the questionbecause we target this.
This modality is targetedtowards what we call a mixed
agenda couples.
It's really not for somebodywho thinks, who knows for sure
that they want a divorce andthey have absolute clarity about
that.
So sometimes I'll ask scalingquestions on the phone like hey,
(07:31):
on a scale of one to 10, howmuch do you want the divorce
versus how much do you want tostay and work on it?
And I've had people on thephone who've said I'm 90% sure I
want the divorce and then, ifthey'll allow me, then I want to
hear a little bit about that.
10% of them, that's not quitesure.
That doesn't have theconfidence in that decision.
(07:51):
And they'll say things like hey, I'm worried about the impact
it's going to have on my kids,or I'm worried about our
finances, or I still love thisperson, but I'm not sure that I
can go on and they'll havereasons.
And my invitation at that pointis, if you're interested at all
in coming in and talking aboutthat 10%, if that 10% vacillates
(08:13):
, if it sometimes goes to 15 or20, then maybe you could benefit
from a protocol that'sspecifically designed to help
you get that clarity and thatconfidence.
So one of the things that we sayis discernment counseling is
not for the two people who lookat each other and say, hey, it's
time to end this relationship.
Those people go off and getyour lawyers or your divorce
(08:35):
mediators, whatever pathway youwant, but that is a couple
that's not seeking that clarityor seeking that confidence.
But we think there's a goodportion of people who, for
example, show up to couplestherapy 25%, 30% in our
estimates based on this researchI just shared earlier that are
seriously wondering is this theright decision to go?
(08:57):
And it doesn't require both ofthem to be wondering about it,
it only requires one of them tobe wondering if this is the
right decision to go.
And oftentimes what I see indiscernment counseling is one
person who's leaning in and theyhave their clarity.
That's what I want.
I want us.
I see a vision of us, I havehope for us If we make some
changes.
I make changes, if you makechanges, you know.
(09:19):
And the other person is the onewho's kind of like ambivalent
or not so sure, and we just wantto make sure that we are able
to create a space for theirambivalence to be okay and for
so many people in that spot, thepeople that are close to them
their partner, for example,their family members, their
(09:39):
loved ones.
They're not okay with theambivalence and we wanted
discernment counseling to be aplace where it's okay to be
ambivalent and you've got spaceto be in this undecided space
for a while.
Nice.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Thank you, steve.
Thanks, can we go a little bitdeeper, even in with, I mean,
some of the differences.
You know someone hearing thislistener.
For the very first time they'rehearing this, they're like, oh
well, do I need this.
Or first time they're hearingthis, they're like, oh well, do
I need this or do I needcounseling Again, kind of
clarify some of the goals.
And sometimes I mean, if you'recounseling a couple, do you say
, okay, let's pause here, let'sgo back to this to say what do
(10:14):
you want?
It's almost like the I don'tknow decision tree is that?
It's almost like thesepre-questions.
And then they say, okay, gothis way or that way, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So a lot of the couples that we work with in
discernment counseling have goneto a lot of couples therapy
sometimes multiple therapists,multiple attempts.
The problem is what they runinto.
Is they run into well-meaningtherapists who say I'm happy to
help you, I just need to knowwhat you want.
Do you want help working onyour relationship?
Because I'm really good, I'm aGottman-trained therapist or I'm
(10:48):
an EFT, just from the home ofSue Johnson, and I know my stuff
and I'm really good and theyare.
There's good therapists outthere.
But if one of the partners isnot on board, they need a
different approach.
And one of the ways that Iexplain this to people is like
if you thought you had cancer,you'd go to an oncologist and
(11:10):
they would, you know, they'dpoke and prod, they'd do blood
work and they'd take an MRI orthey'd do a CAT scan or they'd
do a biopsy of some kind.
All of that just to find outwhat kind of cancer are we
talking about here and you?
And is this skin cancer?
Is it leukemia?
Is it something else?
All of that so that they canset up the right treatment.
(11:32):
And I tell people that becausesometimes people will come into
discernment counseling.
After they've had some couplestherapy, they'll come in and
after a first session they'llsay things like nothing's
changing in our relationship.
And I'll be like, hey, nothingis supposed to change right now,
because the goal of this is notchange as much as it's clarity
and confidence.
So I tell people like hey, youhaven't yet decided to take the
(11:55):
chemotherapy.
We're still in that assessment.
We're still trying to figureout what kind of relational
cancer this is and what the besttreatment protocol would be for
you going forward cancer thisis and what the best treatment
protocol would be for you goingforward.
And you will get to make adecision whether you want that
path that moves forward to dothe treatment, to do the
reconciliation, or whether youwant some other path.
(12:15):
And I'm referring to thesepaths.
One of the things that we do atDiscernment Counseling is we
present what we believe are thethree paths in front of
everybody who's on the brink ofdivorce and we call them paths
one, two and three.
We label them as well.
Path one we call the status quopath, and I do this when I'm on
the telephone with somebodywho's just wondering whether
they want to start updiscernment counseling.
So I'll say the status quo pathis basically your relationship
(12:39):
as it is right now, without anyintervention.
That is a path.
You can keep doing this, youcan keep living that way, you
can keep on keeping on.
And now, most of the times, Ifeel like people want to slap me
when I say that, because it'slike we are calling you, because
we can't keep doing the statusquo.
We're living like roommates.
(12:59):
We have no intimate connection,physically, emotionally, we're
not talking to each other.
We can't keep doing this thingthat we're doing.
However, it is a path.
And then we go and I talk tothem about the second path, path
two, which we call the divorceor separation path, and we talk
to them specifically about thatis a path that only one of you
needs to decide, that you don'tneed to have a consensus to
(13:22):
arrive at that path too.
So we want to make sure that indiscernment counseling there is
room and there's space to talkabout everyone's thoughts about
divorce, the upside of it, thedownside of it.
Even if the partner, even ifyou're the leaning in partner
and you don't want the divorce,we still want to get their
perspective on what it means tothem, how it would impact them,
(13:43):
how at least they think it wouldimpact them.
And then we roll out this thirdpath, this idea of a
reconciliation path or arehabilitation path,
specifically taking divorce offthe table for a period of six
months and having each personwork on some very personal
things to themselves and work onthe couple relationship to see
(14:04):
if they could restart, torestore health to the
relationship.
So and we think in thatsix-month period of time they'd
be able to start seeing somechanges if they're identifying
the right things to work on andare able to kind of put some
effort into the relationship.
That way, I tell people at theend of six months put divorce
back on the table, have a verypoignant and centered and
(14:28):
intentional phone call aboutyour efforts.
What have you done since sixmonths ago when we first sat
down in Dr Harris's office?
What have you been doing?
What have we been doing andwhat gains have we made?
So we talk about those threepaths status quo made.
So we talk about those threepaths status quo divorce or a
reconciliation path and providea lot of structure.
(14:52):
And that's one of the things Ihear from people after a first
session of discernmentcounseling.
They often say, wow, this isvery structured.
This is unlike any therapywe've sat in before.
So it's a very different kindof protocol with a lot of you
know the therapist kind of beingvery direct about the business
of making the decision with thatincreased clarity and
confidence.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Very good.
Well, can you give us please,steve, a 10,000 foot view, if
you will, of what discernmentcounseling looks like for our
listeners and viewers today?
From a client's perspective,what can they expect?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
is in the room at the same time for a portion of
discernment counseling.
When I start with a firstsession there's about a half
hour to 40 minutes of takinghistory and asking specific
questions of the couple.
We ask them questions about thedivorce narrative what is the
story that each of you haveabout why divorce is a
possibility?
We ask about their repairnarrative what things have you
tried to do to affect change inthese problems that you've
(15:58):
identified?
We ask them a question abouthow they interact when they have
big things that are going on intheir relationship, when you've
got something really importantto talk about and we start to
identify their pattern of howthey interact with each other.
A lot of couples don't knowthey develop a pattern of
interaction and we label thepattern, sometimes pursue
distant attack, withdraw,withdraw, withdraw.
(16:21):
We describe the dance of thosekinds of patterns and you'll see
people nodding their head likethat's us right there, I'm the
pursuer or I'm the distancer andI'm conflict avoidant.
And so people start to identifythat they show up a certain way
in their relationship and evenpeople who have gone to couples
therapy sometimes are gettingthat as a new revelation to them
(16:41):
.
They had no idea they were theone who was distancing.
They just saw their partner asbeing kind of aggressive in how
they wanted to talk, but theydidn't see that they were
contributing by a complimentaryresponse.
So we start with a couple oftimes with the divorce question,
the repair narrative, how theyinteract with each other.
(17:04):
We ask them about their children.
We ask the question what role,if any, do your children play in
your decision-making about thefuture of your marriage?
That's always a fascinating onebecause people respond in two
ways.
Sometimes they respond with theone word answer, and to me the
one word answer is it's huge, mykids are the only reason I'm
here today.
That's basically what peoplesay.
(17:27):
Other people respond with what Icall the paragraph response,
and it's a little more nuancedand it goes a little bit like
this they start out by sayinglook, I love my kids, but I'm
not letting my kids make thisdecision for me.
Or they'll say I love my kidsand part of showing love to your
kids is being in a healthyrelationship.
And this relationship is not ata healthy place right now and
(17:48):
if it can't get there, maybe thebest thing I can do for my kids
is to get out.
So there are a lot of peoplewho say I'm not divorcing
because of my kids or I'm not atthe place of divorce because of
my kids.
And there are other people whocan nuance that and say divorce
is on the table because of mykids.
I'm specifically not interestedin telling them that this is an
(18:08):
okay relationship dynamic.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, after we ask and everybody is.
So it's personal, it's personalright, correct, everybody's got
their own reason.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
That's why we do so.
Much of our protocol is justasking one person at a time what
their thoughts, what theirexperience is, and we even say
to them hey, avoid temptation toanswer for both of, because we
know we have mixed agendacouples.
They're going to have differentresponses to all of these
questions.
So one person, when I askedthem the question about why are
(18:39):
you here, for discernment,counseling or what's going on to
get you to the point wheredivorce is a possibility?
And one person says it's theaffair that my partner had.
Well then you talk to thepartner and the partner says the
affair was a symptom of theseother things that were going on
way before.
And we're here today because ofthese other things.
And, yes, there was an affairthat happened, but that's not my
(18:59):
biggest concern as these otherthings that went on prior to
that.
So the next question we ask inthe interview is we want to hear
a little bit about what broughtthem together.
What do they enjoy about eachother?
So we ask them to think aboutthe best of times.
When was the best of times inyour relationship?
And a lot of people, especiallypeople with kids, will say
(19:19):
things like oh, before kids came.
Or they'll say, hey, when wewere dating, everything was
amazing, yeah.
And then life hits and you'vegot work and stress and kids and
things like that that demand alot of your time and attention.
Surprisingly, there's otherpeople who say things like
actually our best of times wasfour years ago.
Remember one guy saying that onhis 40th birthday four years
(19:43):
ago they went out and they didall the things that are in that
Tim McGraw song about riding abull and getting tattoos.
I mean, live like you're dyingI can't remember what the name
is, live like you were dying,yeah, yeah.
So they went and did all thosethings.
They had to drive fromMinneapolis to Chicago to find a
bull to ride in a rodeo saloonor whatever.
(20:04):
So they said that was the besttime.
I had one couple who saidactually our best of times was
only three weeks ago, and thiswas a person who said on the
phone intake I'm not sure I wantto be in my marriage anymore.
I might even have a newboyfriend, but three weeks
earlier they were together at abed and breakfast and they
really connected anyway.
(20:24):
So we want to know, when therehave been good times, what's
worth seeing in thisrelationship.
The final question we ask withthe couple, both in the room, is
what is it about yourexperience of this marriage that
your partner just doesn't quiteget?
What's it like to be you, andwhy doesn't your partner know
(20:45):
that?
Or why has that been difficultfor your partner to understand?
This piece of what's that pieceof you, that piece of your
experience that's been hard forthem to understand.
And those are pivotal questionsthat set us up for the rest of
the interview.
At that point in the interviewthen we separate, so we'll talk
to each person.
But a session of discernmentcounseling looks kind of the
(21:07):
same.
Every session looks kind of thesame.
We start out with the couple inthe room and then we excuse one
person, do a lot of one-on-oneand then repeat that and do some
one-on-one with the otherperson.
The other thing that we do iswe make sure that when we've met
with one of the members of thecouple, we ask them to give a
summary statement to theirpartner about what they're
(21:28):
taking with them.
So partners might say thingslike they might say hey, steve
and I talked about these threepaths and here's where I'm at
with the paths.
Or they might say hey, steveand I talked about these three
paths and here's where I'm atwith the paths.
Or they might say I used tothink that all our problems were
because of you, but I'mlearning that my defensiveness
is also showing up in thisrelationship and it's making it
hard for us to connect.
(21:49):
So we try to help them,language some kind of a message
to their partner, so that thepartner can kind of get a feel
for, okay, they're taking thiswork seriously, they're looking
at themselves and trying tofigure out how they might be
able to be a little different inthe relationship.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
We'll be right back after this brief message and
we're back, let's dive right in.
So I mean, this is fascinating,steve.
(22:30):
It sounds like it's more thanjust like a discernment session.
I mean discernment counseling.
Is this ongoing?
You know, in my head it waslike, okay, you have one or two
sessions to discern.
You know what do I do?
I want to stay, do I want to go, and then you go into therapy.
But it's the you're talkinglike multiple, I mean six months
of still.
I mean, does it kind of mergefrom discernment counseling to
then therapy?
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So great, great question, dave.
So so if people take the like,we think about these three paths
right.
And we think about these threepaths right that third path that
we call the reconciliation path, if a couple, through the
process of discernment,counseling, we help each person
develop what I call a personalagenda for change.
So kind of three core thingsthat each person would kind of
(23:09):
work on, and they might bethings like, let's say,
defensiveness.
I brought that up a littlewhile ago.
A person might say hey, I'mrealizing that I'm showing up to
a lot of our interactions in adefensive manner and it keeps me
from really understanding whereyou're coming from.
I would like to work on mydefensiveness in our
interactions over the next sixmonths.
That might be an example of apersonal agenda for change item
(23:31):
that somebody can implement.
It's change about themselvesthat is obviously going to have
an impact on the relationship.
Other people might say thingslike hey, I've been struggling
with my mental health lately.
My anxiety, my depression isreally kind of kicking me in the
backside.
I need to get back onmedication.
I need to have a focus on myown mental health.
(23:52):
For other people, it'saddiction.
Hey, I need to go have a drugand alcohol evaluation and get
myself right and get myselfsober and maybe I can work on
the relationship then.
But those are examples of threekind of very personal things
that somebody might take on thatare also going to have a
relationship benefit as well.
Right, if you're getting cleanand sober, you're going to show
(24:14):
up to the relationshipdifferently.
If you're prioritizing yourmental health, you're going to
show up to the relationshipdifferently.
If you're prioritizing yourmental health, you're going to
show up to the relationshipdifferently.
So we help people identify thework that they would need to do
and we share that with theirpartner.
So each person goes okay, Iknow what I can expect from Dave
.
Dave said he's going to work onthese three things, and Liz
said she's going to work onthese three things, and so Dave
(24:36):
and Liz get she's going to workon these three things, and so
Dave and Liz get to decide okay,I'm going to take this on,
you're going to take that on.
That gives me a good sense asto whether or not I'm willing to
invest another six months inthis marriage to see if we can
get to a healthier place.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Okay yeah, very helpful thing, steve.
I mean big picture.
How would you summarize?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I guess, steve, a primary job of a discernment
counselor is fill in the blank,yeah yeah, the primary job is to
paint the picture of that thirdpath, and I'm now telling
people that I'm like.
I think my job is to paint thispicture because, when you think
about who comes to discernmentcounseling, it's people who are
stuck in their status quo, whoare not happy with their status
(25:15):
quo, and all the efforts they'vemade in that status quo have
yielded them to this place, havegotten them to this place where
they still think divorce is theright option or might be the
right option, and because ofthat, they've been thinking a
lot about divorce.
Some of them are Googlingthings, some of them are
contacting lawyers.
Some of them are wondering, ifwe split everything down the
(25:36):
middle, what would that leave uswith?
What are the kids going to do?
And so they've been fantasizingand going through scenarios
about divorce already.
So I believe when a personshows up for discernment
counseling one, they're veryintimately aware of their status
quo and what that looks like,and they've been spending a lot
of time talking about divorce,wondering about divorce,
(25:58):
thinking about divorce.
That comes from other researchthat we've done on divorce
decision-making that you andI've been part of.
People think about this for along time.
People rarely think aboutdivorce and go off and sign the
papers.
It's usually a long andprotracted event, with multiple
swings of a pendulum coming backand should I stay, should I go?
(26:19):
Here's reasons to stay, here'sreasons to leave, and those
shift and change all the time.
So my primary goal as adiscernment counselor is to
paint a picture of what could beif they choose to try one last
time, with decent help anddecent effort on both their
parts, to see if they can rightthe ship, to see if they can
(26:40):
reconcile their relationship orat least get back on a path.
And I tell people look aftersix months.
You're not going to be coupleof the year after six months,
but you should be able to beputting to bed some of the old
arguments.
You should be seeing some newthings happening.
Putting to bed some of the oldarguments.
You should be seeing some newthings happening.
And actually what I see, what Ihear from couples, somewhere in
that three and four months time,that third and fourth month,
(27:04):
they start sending things likeSteve, we're actually fighting
more, but we never talked beforeand we're not having the same
arguments over and over again.
We're having impassionedarguments, but we're able to
hang in there with each other.
We know we've got this therapything on the side that we can go
to to help out.
So my job paint the picture, beable to sit with ambivalence,
(27:31):
be okay with sitting withambivalence and I think a lot of
therapists are.
If they're not prepped andprimed for that idea, you're
going to have to sit with someambivalence, provide direction
but also sit with ambivalence.
I think a lot of therapists getkind of nervous like nah,
they're not making any progressand I'm whipping out the four
(27:51):
horsemen and I'm doing thesenegative interaction loops and
I'm going to core fears andprimary emotions.
But the key they have to have apicture how things could be
different for them to experimentwith this third path, this path
three, a reconciliation path.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, very helpful Thanks.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
What are the results of discernment counseling today,
steve?
Yeah, well how many stay, howmany go?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Early on.
We started tracking our clientswho went through this process
and what we saw was about 51% ofthe couples that came in were
going down that third path.
Now that doesn't mean that allof them were successful, right.
So they'd go into discernmentcounseling.
They'd have anywhere from oneto five sessions.
They decide on path three andthen they would go off and they
(28:43):
would do their six months oftherapy or whatever, or some
extended beyond that.
Not all of those couples madeit, but like 70%, 75% of those
couples came through keepingtheir marriages intact, getting
to a healthier place.
For those couples where divorceis the option, I think it's like
(29:05):
19% I want to say 19% or 29%I'm messing up with the numbers
here there's a portion of themthat go on and get divorced and
those people, the research showsthat those people who go down
that path actually feel betterabout their co-parenting.
(29:28):
They leave that discernmentcounseling space having
understood each other in alittle different way than they
were able to while they weremarried.
So we hope that there's gainsfor that couple as well, even
though they've changed theirfamilial relationship to not be
intact.
But we hope that there's abetter outcome for their kids
(29:49):
and them having gone throughthis process I actually think
that was 29% are like that, 20,31%, something like that and
then we have like there's like19% of the couples that we work
with end up going down thestatus quo path.
Status quo, yeah, thateverybody at the outset says is
(30:14):
unacceptable.
So you might be wondering likewell, how does somebody go from
this unacceptable path to aplace where they're like okay,
this makes the most senseSometimes in discernment
counseling.
What will happen is we'll see acouple, we'll go sessions one
through four or five, onethrough four or so seem to be
getting traction and then kindof trails off.
(30:34):
They don't get traction,they're not getting the clarity
and we have to remind themaround session five or so
sometimes we go to a six thatpath one is still a path.
If you can't decide to work onit and you're not ready to end
the relationship, it's okay toclaim that you're on path one,
that you're hey, for right now,for this season in our
relationship, we're on path one.
(30:55):
What I saw, the most notableexample of this, was a guy who
in the fifth or sixth session ofthe sermon counseling, came and
said I know that right now I'mnot ready to commit to the work.
I know I can't do the work andI'm skeptical that she'd be able
to as well.
Being very honest, right, hesaid, I also know that if we
(31:18):
divorced, I'm not at a goodplace.
I would not be able to treather with the kindness and
respect that she deserves,having been such a major part of
my life.
So I can't divorce right nowand be a good guy through a
divorce process.
And he said and besides, we'vegot twin daughters that are
graduating.
We're trying to put my dad intoa nursing care facility,
(31:43):
assisted living facility.
The house is up for sale.
There's too much going on inour life to take divorce or
working on the relationship on.
So they both kind of said thatthis makes sense and they left
that session saying we're goingto commit to be in the status
quo.
So that means I'm not puttingpressure on you to make changes,
(32:06):
you're not putting pressure onme to make changes.
We both know where we're at.
We both have that clarity that,coming down the road, we're
going to kick the can a littlefurther down the road, but we're
doing it with intentionalityand we're doing it with both of
us on board.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Wow, very good.
I like hearing all this Such agood review from me, coming from
such a profound expert, drHarris, I really appreciate this
.
Do you have a story of a couplethat stands out that you'd love
to share with us today here onStronger Marriage Connection,
somebody who really put this tothe test of servant counseling
(32:40):
and came out in a way that youfelt was really successful?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
So, liz, rather than just like zeroing in on one
particular, I kind of give youan amalgam right Kind of an
aggregate For couples when theygo down that third path, the
majority of the people that godown that third path of trying
to work on their relationshipoftentimes the discernment
counseling process ishighlighted to them that it's
(33:05):
not just their partner who'sdropping the ball in the
relationship.
And so much of us, when we'rethinking about divorce or
wanting divorce, we go into ourheads and we are wonderfully
adept at tracking how poor ourpartner is at showing up as a
good relationship partner.
We oftentimes don't have thesame sense, we don't have the
(33:26):
same accuracy when we'rethinking about our own
contributions to the marriage orthe decline of the marriage.
So I think one of the thingsthat people get out of the
sermon counseling is they havesomebody that says to them and
how are you showing up?
And a lot of people say, hey, Iknow, I'm no saint.
I'm no saint in all of this.
Okay, tell me about exactly howyou're not a saint.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
What have you been doing?
What have you not been doing?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
You know, and when people get a sense like, okay,
it's not as simple as theequation that I had in my head,
there's this other side of theequation that needs to balance
out here.
I think that's one of thebiggest benefits of discernment
counseling is you've got atherapist who's trained to think
systemically.
It's not just your partner'sdrinking, it's not just your
(34:16):
partner's wanting to haveconversations with you, it's
also your distancing.
And so, just like, the personwho pursues needs to figure out
hey, I can't pursue as much.
I need to invite more toconversations.
I need to make sure that I'mnot overwhelming my partner.
The distancer also needs tounderstand hey, I can't keep
(34:36):
pulling away.
If I want to pull away, thereare ways for me to manage that.
I can tell my partner hey, Idon't want to have the
conversation right now, but I amopen to it later on.
I'm doing this thing right now.
I need to get into theheadspace to have that.
So just helping people seetheir own side of the equation
is probably one of the biggestthings that I think we provide
in discernment counseling.
And so when you think aboutsuccess, I think people going
(35:00):
and realizing I never knew I wasshowing up like this You've
made it harder for me just toblame my spouse for all of our
problems.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I just think that's so crucial, even if a couple
does divorce right, sally, we'reall from marriage.
Here, I think the three of uscould say we are and yeah, it
doesn't mean we should neverhave divorce, even though I
prefer that we didn't, butthat's not my choice to make.
But even then, I guess we'remuch more better prepared for
the next relationship when wesee ourselves, because wherever
(35:33):
we go there, we are.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yeah Well, and you all know that the popular
statistics around divorce andthere's a number of different
ways to figure the divorce rate,the rate per thousand or
whatever the one that's outthere the most is 50% of all
marriages end in divorce.
That's the one the public grabonto right and we know that in a
similar vein, second andsubsequent relationships
(35:57):
marriages, specifically, 67% endin divorce, and some of that's
because people don't learnanything about themselves.
They think I got rid of thatball and chain and now
everything's great.
Oh, looks like I married thewrong kind of person again.
But sometimes there is anelement of how have I been
showing up?
That needs to change that Ithink some people ignore or
(36:21):
maybe don't see as easily.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, very good, thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Steve, if someone is listening today and they're
thinking, man, this reallyresonates with me, or man, I
think my sister or mybrother-in-law or whatever could
really use this.
I mean, do they just hop onGoogle?
Or they're like, okay, hey, areyou a discernment counselor?
What's the first step ofsomeone right now listening,
thinking, yes, I want this Nowwhere the heck to actually go?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, I think a couple of different places.
I do think that Google is nowbecoming a greater tool for that
.
I mean, there was a time whenthe only people who were doing
discernment counseling were BillDoherty, myself and Bridget
Manley-Mayer, who were the threepeople who kind of put the
finishing touches on this modelthat Bill had been working on
for years.
(37:07):
But it's more prolific.
We've been doing a lot oftrainings here in the Twin
Cities area.
So there's a lot of people whoadvertise their practices as
offering discernment counseling.
But I think through the DohertyRelationship Institute there's
a host of people over a thousandpeople who've been trained in a
variety of different states.
So I think searching fordiscernment counseling, finding
(37:30):
a discernment counselor throughthe DRI, the Doherty
Relationship Institute,d-o-h-e-r-t-y, might be
something that people could do.
And, yeah, there's peoplewho've gone through intensive
training.
I mean we're training people inthis model in Singapore.
We're training people acrossthe globe on how to do
(37:50):
discernment counseling and it'sfinding a good home in a variety
of mental health practitioners'offices, couples, therapists'
offices as well.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, that's helpful.
We're in all 50 states and 80countries.
Many of our listeners,obviously with the Utah Marriage
Commission.
This is sponsors this podcast,or you've been out here though,
steve right, you trained I don'tknow how many therapists in
Utah, but Utah is pretty welltrained.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yeah, there are a number of people who have been
at least introduced to it.
You can only get so much in aday-long training, so sometimes
having somebody who's gonethrough that a deeper experience
might have a better chance.
And with the ubiquitous natureof online therapy, the number of
people who could provide thetraining has gone up and there's
(38:35):
more accessibility now.
Ever since COVID, we all kindof have shifted to be able to do
online therapy.
Some do it better than others,but there are people who are
certainly available.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
This is okay.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Very good.
Well, dr Harris, please tell uswhere can listeners go to find
out more about you anddiscernment, counseling, the
research you've done and anyother helpful resources that you
might have for us.
Yeah, I think that will linkthat to our show notes.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, I think probably the easiest thing is
the MNMinnesotaCouplesOnTheBringorg.
That's MN and spell it all outMinnesotaCouplesOnTheBringorg.
That'll get you to our Coupleson the Bring project, where we
talk about discernmentcounseling.
The Doherty RelationshipInstitute is another place that
talks specifically aboutdiscernment counseling.
(39:27):
I think there's a websitethat's discernmentcounselingcom
which will get you to theDoherty Relationship Institute
as well.
It's fascinating to me to havebeen part of this at the very
beginning and now to do aYouTube search.
People will just even if you'reon YouTube, you can find videos
about discernment counselingand what it is and what it's not
(39:49):
, what the approach is all about.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yeah, that's great, like Liz said, for our listeners
, we'll put all those links andinformation in our show notes so
you can go there to find outquickly how you can find out
more information.
Hey, steve, before we let yougo, I have a couple of questions
for you.
What is the takeaway of the day?
Do you have a take-home messagethat you want our listeners to
remember from all that wediscussed today?
What would that be?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Yeah, I think, with some of the research we've done
on divorce decision-making andmy experience with discernment
counseling, I would say thatjust because someone is thinking
about divorce does not meanthat divorce is inevitable.
I think that's one of the bigtakeaways that I have about this
work, because I've seen couplescome back from being on the
(40:34):
brink and they manage to be opento hearing about ways that they
could change.
They're open to seeing whethertheir partner can change, and
I've just had too manyexperiences of people who were
on the brink who were able tostep back and find the
relationship again.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Love that, love that Brings hope.
Yeah, liz, what about you?
What's your takeaway of the daywith Steve?
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Oh gosh, so many good things, so many copious notes
here.
I think it's so good for all ofus to remember with discernment
counseling both as therapistsand couples is that it's not
necessarily for change.
It's not for change, it's forclarity and confidence, and I
really love that.
I love that it's a place forambivalence to you know to be
(41:18):
welcomed.
We don't have to have theanswers and sometimes I think
that I guess it takes what ittakes.
Do you sometimes see Steve go?
Couples even go a little bitmore than five sessions?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah Well, when we present it to people, we say
there's no law that says wecan't go to a sixth session if
we want to, you know.
But we know that once we hitthat sixth, maybe that seventh
that we have to start talkingabout.
Hey, that third path is still apath and maybe, even though you
didn't want it initially, maybethere's a way to think about
that first path I'm sorry thatpath one, the status quo, to
still be an option.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Okay To just hit pause that status quo, Very good
.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Yeah, Dave.
What about you?
What's the richest nugget youhope we're all going to remember
from our time with Dr SteveHarris today?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yes, this has been very enlightening.
I've been familiar with thisbut, man, the more that I hear
it, I'm jumping on the bandwagon.
I'm a big fan of this.
It reminds me of some of theresearch that you and I and Alan
Hawkins and others have donewith thinking about divorce,
soft thinkers and hard thinkersabout divorce.
You know soft thinkers and andhard thinkers about divorce.
I just I hope I can normalizethat some of this normalizes.
(42:26):
Uh, you know, it's common,common for people to think about
divorce, to think of mymarriage is in trouble or what
should I do one day, and then,yeah, that it's great.
And then, okay, now I'm backhere, kind of in this hole.
We had a blow up again, or whatabout this?
So for people kind of go onthat that m Mary's roller
coaster to you know where can Igo to help?
So I need some help, but it's Idon't want to go to therapy yet
(42:47):
or whatever.
It's man, this just feels likesuch a um, a great option, um,
at least for many couples, right, if they are not a 10 out of 10
, I'm getting divorced, but Ineed some help deciding what
path to take.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Yeah, and obviously it's not for everybody.
Like I said earlier, if you'redecided and you have your
clarity, this is not for you.
And I've turned people awaybecause they were so decided and
what they really wanted intherapy was a place to drop
their partner off and say youclean up the mess after I tell
my partner I want a divorce.
That's not what this is aboutat all.
(43:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yeah, wow, again.
Steve, thank you so much formaking time to come on to share
so much.
We sure appreciate you and yourtime.
Thanks for having me.
All right, friends, that doesit for us.
We'll see you again next timeon another episode of the
Stronger Marriage Connectionpodcast.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
And remember it's the small things that create a
stronger marriage connection.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Take good care of you .
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram,
at Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
(44:16):
guests we should have on theshow next.
If you want even more resourcesto improve your marriage or
relationship connection, visitStrongerMarriageorg, where
you'll find free workshops,e-courses, in-depth webinars,
relationship surveys and more.
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
(44:37):
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
Most couples experience all kinds of ups and
downs in their marriage andcountless couples have talked
about whether they should evenstay together.
On today's episode, professorand marriage therapist Dr Steve
Harris joins us to talk aboutdiscernment counseling and how
he can help both partners gainclarity about their options
moving forward, and the resultsjust might surprise you.
Stephen Harris received hismaster's and doctoral degrees in
(00:27):
marriage and family therapyfrom Syracuse University.
He is a professor in theDepartment of Family Social
Science at the University ofMinnesota.
He's been practicing as afamily therapist for over 30
years.
He's the past editor for theJournal of Marital and Family
Therapy and has authored over 95peer-reviewed articles and book
chapters and has written fourbooks.
Dr Harris also serves as thedirector of the Minnesota
(00:50):
Couples on the Brink Project atthe University of Minnesota.
He conducts research on themany facets of divorce,
decision-making and thediscernment counseling approach
he and his colleague, dr WilliamGordy pioneered of the
University of Minnesota.
They are currently working on arevision of their first
textbook on discernmentcounseling, originally published
(01:10):
in April 2017, that will bereleased in 2026.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey friends, welcome to anotherepisode of Stronger Marriage
Connection Podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity, alongside Dr Liz
Hale, our therapist, we'reaiming to bring you the very
(01:33):
best we have in research andresources and tips and tools to
help you create the marriage ofyour dreams.
Today we're taking a really, Imost important yet often
misunderstood approaches tohelping couples on the brink of
divorce discernment counseling.
(01:55):
Our guest today is a friend, acolleague, professor in marriage
and family therapist at theUniversity of Minnesota, who
I've known, actually for closeto two decades.
So we're looking forward to agreat discussion.
Welcome to the show, dr SteveHarris.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Yeah, we're anxious to jumpright in here, steve.
Steve, can we start morestepping back kind of big
(02:16):
picture to set up our discussiontoday?
Can you tell us whatdiscernment counseling is for
our listeners who are notfamiliar with what that is, and
why the need for discernmentcounseling is?
For our listeners who are notfamiliar with what that is and
why the need for discernmentcounseling?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, you bet I mean the model, the protocol.
I came out of some work that DrBill Doherty and myself did
here at the University ofMinnesota.
We were actually interviewingpeople or surveyed people who
were remanded to parenteducation classes, who were
going through divorce, parentswho had minor age children, and
(02:48):
one of the questions that weasked them was whether or not
they'd be open to any kind ofreconciliation services or if
they had an attitude aboutreconciliation at all.
So these are people who werealready in the divorce court
system.
They were moving along and thejudge was saying, hey, because
you have minor children, you'vegot to go in and kind of get
(03:10):
your act together to be on thesame page for your co-parenting.
Well, when we looked at theresults, there were about 30% of
those couples where at leastone person said I don't want
this divorce and they eitherspecified I'm interested in
making some changes myself orI'd be open to my If my partner
made changes.
I'd be open to seeing if wecould save our merit and one of
(03:30):
the things that we did with thatdata.
So we had 30% of the sample whosaid I'm not really interested
in getting a divorce and webelieve that that's probably a
fairly accurate number for mostpeople who are going through
divorce that there's usually oneperson who doesn't want it.
And when we look closer at thedata, one of the things that we
(03:51):
found is that we matched 10% ofthe couples where both people
were saying something like thatBoth people 10% of this group of
2000 plus people said I don'twant this divorce and I'd be
willing to work on my marriageif my partner or myself would
make changes.
So we believe that there's aportion of divorces out there
that could require somedifferent kind of an approach,
(04:11):
or portion of the marriages thatare in trouble, that are on the
brink of divorce, that couldeven benefit from some kind of
an approach where they couldtake one final look to see if
the relationship is worthsalvaging.
So in this Minnesota Couples onthe Bring project, one of our
goals is to help preventunnecessary divorce or premature
(04:33):
divorce decision-making, toprevent premature divorce
decisions, and that's reallykind of why we developed this
protocol.
You know, couples therapy is agreat modality for those people
who want to make changes intheir relationship.
But couples therapy reallyrelies on the fact that you have
two people both with the samekind of interest in moving in
(04:56):
the same direction, like both ofthem looking at each other,
saying we want to work on this.
We feel what we've got is worthsaving, worth enhancing, worth
helping us connect better.
So couples therapy is designedto help people increase their
connection, increase emotional,physical intimacy, help with
bonding, those kinds of things.
But that is really hard to dowhen one person is not sure that
(05:19):
they want to be in therelationship, and that's what we
developed this protocol for,specifically what we call mixed
agenda couples, a couple whereone person is leaning in, they
want the relationship to get toa healthier place, they want it
to be successful, they want toconnect and the other person
might be frankly leaning out,they might have a foot out the
door, they might have signed adivorce paper, an initiated
(05:41):
divorce, a divorce proceeding ofsome kind, or legal action, all
the way to those people who arejust somewhat ambivalent, just
not sure that they should stayin the relationship.
So while the goal of couplescounseling is to help facilitate
bonding and connection, thegoal of discernment counseling
is to help couples get greaterclarity and confidence in their
decision-making about the futureof their marriage, based on a
(06:04):
deeper understanding of how theygot to this point where divorce
is something that's a realpossibility and help them see
how they both have contributedto the marital problems.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's really the big nugget, would you say.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, I mean, that's the biggest thing.
When I'm on the phone withsomebody who's wondering whether
discernment counseling is theright approach, I often
highlight the differencesbetween typical counseling,
couples counseling, bonding andconnection versus this
discernment protocol, which isabout getting clarity, about
deciding on whether or not youwant to work on the relationship
, whether or not you have thecapacity and interest to work on
(06:40):
the relationship.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Very good.
So, dr Harris, let's talk aboutthe audience for discernment
counseling, please, who it's forand, maybe equally as important
, if not more important, whoit's not for.
I can attest that as acertified discernment counselor,
I've made some mistakes inreally not doing a very good
evaluation up upfront with myclients on the phone.
(07:05):
Yeah, and sometimes I agree,just pardon me, go ahead, you
got it.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
No, no.
Thanks Liz.
I appreciate the questionbecause we target this.
This modality is targetedtowards what we call a mixed
agenda couples.
It's really not for somebodywho thinks, who knows for sure
that they want a divorce andthey have absolute clarity about
that.
So sometimes I'll ask scalingquestions on the phone like hey,
(07:31):
on a scale of one to 10, howmuch do you want the divorce
versus how much do you want tostay and work on it?
And I've had people on thephone who've said I'm 90% sure I
want the divorce and then, ifthey'll allow me, then I want to
hear a little bit about that.
10% of them, that's not quitesure.
That doesn't have theconfidence in that decision.
(07:51):
And they'll say things like hey, I'm worried about the impact
it's going to have on my kids,or I'm worried about our
finances, or I still love thisperson, but I'm not sure that I
can go on and they'll havereasons.
And my invitation at that pointis, if you're interested at all
in coming in and talking aboutthat 10%, if that 10% vacillates
(08:13):
, if it sometimes goes to 15 or20, then maybe you could benefit
from a protocol that'sspecifically designed to help
you get that clarity and thatconfidence.
So one of the things that we sayis discernment counseling is
not for the two people who lookat each other and say, hey, it's
time to end this relationship.
Those people go off and getyour lawyers or your divorce
(08:35):
mediators, whatever pathway youwant, but that is a couple
that's not seeking that clarityor seeking that confidence.
But we think there's a goodportion of people who, for
example, show up to couplestherapy 25%, 30% in our
estimates based on this researchI just shared earlier that are
seriously wondering is this theright decision to go?
(08:57):
And it doesn't require both ofthem to be wondering about it,
it only requires one of them tobe wondering if this is the
right decision to go.
And oftentimes what I see indiscernment counseling is one
person who's leaning in and theyhave their clarity.
That's what I want.
I want us.
I see a vision of us, I havehope for us If we make some
changes.
I make changes, if you makechanges, you know.
(09:19):
And the other person is the onewho's kind of like ambivalent
or not so sure, and we just wantto make sure that we are able
to create a space for theirambivalence to be okay and for
so many people in that spot, thepeople that are close to them
their partner, for example,their family members, their
(09:39):
loved ones.
They're not okay with theambivalence and we wanted
discernment counseling to be aplace where it's okay to be
ambivalent and you've got spaceto be in this undecided space
for a while.
Nice.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Thank you, steve.
Thanks, can we go a little bitdeeper, even in with, I mean,
some of the differences.
You know someone hearing thislistener.
For the very first time they'rehearing this, they're like, oh
well, do I need this.
Or first time they're hearingthis, they're like, oh well, do
I need this or do I needcounseling Again, kind of
clarify some of the goals.
And sometimes I mean, if you'recounseling a couple, do you say
, okay, let's pause here, let'sgo back to this to say what do
(10:14):
you want?
It's almost like the I don'tknow decision tree is that?
It's almost like thesepre-questions.
And then they say, okay, gothis way or that way, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So a lot of the couples that we work with in
discernment counseling have goneto a lot of couples therapy
sometimes multiple therapists,multiple attempts.
The problem is what they runinto.
Is they run into well-meaningtherapists who say I'm happy to
help you, I just need to knowwhat you want.
Do you want help working onyour relationship?
Because I'm really good, I'm aGottman-trained therapist or I'm
(10:48):
an EFT, just from the home ofSue Johnson, and I know my stuff
and I'm really good and theyare.
There's good therapists outthere.
But if one of the partners isnot on board, they need a
different approach.
And one of the ways that Iexplain this to people is like
if you thought you had cancer,you'd go to an oncologist and
(11:10):
they would, you know, they'dpoke and prod, they'd do blood
work and they'd take an MRI orthey'd do a CAT scan or they'd
do a biopsy of some kind.
All of that just to find outwhat kind of cancer are we
talking about here and you?
And is this skin cancer?
Is it leukemia?
Is it something else?
All of that so that they canset up the right treatment.
(11:32):
And I tell people that becausesometimes people will come into
discernment counseling.
After they've had some couplestherapy, they'll come in and
after a first session they'llsay things like nothing's
changing in our relationship.
And I'll be like, hey, nothingis supposed to change right now,
because the goal of this is notchange as much as it's clarity
and confidence.
So I tell people like hey, youhaven't yet decided to take the
(11:55):
chemotherapy.
We're still in that assessment.
We're still trying to figureout what kind of relational
cancer this is and what the besttreatment protocol would be for
you going forward cancer thisis and what the best treatment
protocol would be for you goingforward.
And you will get to make adecision whether you want that
path that moves forward to dothe treatment, to do the
reconciliation, or whether youwant some other path.
(12:15):
And I'm referring to thesepaths.
One of the things that we do atDiscernment Counseling is we
present what we believe are thethree paths in front of
everybody who's on the brink ofdivorce and we call them paths
one, two and three.
We label them as well.
Path one we call the status quopath, and I do this when I'm on
the telephone with somebodywho's just wondering whether
they want to start updiscernment counseling.
So I'll say the status quo pathis basically your relationship
(12:39):
as it is right now, without anyintervention.
That is a path.
You can keep doing this, youcan keep living that way, you
can keep on keeping on.
And now, most of the times, Ifeel like people want to slap me
when I say that, because it'slike we are calling you, because
we can't keep doing the statusquo.
We're living like roommates.
(12:59):
We have no intimate connection,physically, emotionally, we're
not talking to each other.
We can't keep doing this thingthat we're doing.
However, it is a path.
And then we go and I talk tothem about the second path, path
two, which we call the divorceor separation path, and we talk
to them specifically about thatis a path that only one of you
needs to decide, that you don'tneed to have a consensus to
(13:22):
arrive at that path too.
So we want to make sure that indiscernment counseling there is
room and there's space to talkabout everyone's thoughts about
divorce, the upside of it, thedownside of it.
Even if the partner, even ifyou're the leaning in partner
and you don't want the divorce,we still want to get their
perspective on what it means tothem, how it would impact them,
(13:43):
how at least they think it wouldimpact them.
And then we roll out this thirdpath, this idea of a
reconciliation path or arehabilitation path,
specifically taking divorce offthe table for a period of six
months and having each personwork on some very personal
things to themselves and work onthe couple relationship to see
(14:04):
if they could restart, torestore health to the
relationship.
So and we think in thatsix-month period of time they'd
be able to start seeing somechanges if they're identifying
the right things to work on andare able to kind of put some
effort into the relationship.
That way, I tell people at theend of six months put divorce
back on the table, have a verypoignant and centered and
(14:28):
intentional phone call aboutyour efforts.
What have you done since sixmonths ago when we first sat
down in Dr Harris's office?
What have you been doing?
What have we been doing andwhat gains have we made?
So we talk about those threepaths status quo made.
So we talk about those threepaths status quo divorce or a
reconciliation path and providea lot of structure.
(14:52):
And that's one of the things Ihear from people after a first
session of discernmentcounseling.
They often say, wow, this isvery structured.
This is unlike any therapywe've sat in before.
So it's a very different kindof protocol with a lot of you
know the therapist kind of beingvery direct about the business
of making the decision with thatincreased clarity and
confidence.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Very good.
Well, can you give us please,steve, a 10,000 foot view, if
you will, of what discernmentcounseling looks like for our
listeners and viewers today?
From a client's perspective,what can they expect?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
is in the room at the same time for a portion of
discernment counseling.
When I start with a firstsession there's about a half
hour to 40 minutes of takinghistory and asking specific
questions of the couple.
We ask them questions about thedivorce narrative what is the
story that each of you haveabout why divorce is a
possibility?
We ask about their repairnarrative what things have you
tried to do to affect change inthese problems that you've
(15:58):
identified?
We ask them a question abouthow they interact when they have
big things that are going on intheir relationship, when you've
got something really importantto talk about and we start to
identify their pattern of howthey interact with each other.
A lot of couples don't knowthey develop a pattern of
interaction and we label thepattern, sometimes pursue
distant attack, withdraw,withdraw, withdraw.
(16:21):
We describe the dance of thosekinds of patterns and you'll see
people nodding their head likethat's us right there, I'm the
pursuer or I'm the distancer andI'm conflict avoidant.
And so people start to identifythat they show up a certain way
in their relationship and evenpeople who have gone to couples
therapy sometimes are gettingthat as a new revelation to them
(16:41):
.
They had no idea they were theone who was distancing.
They just saw their partner asbeing kind of aggressive in how
they wanted to talk, but theydidn't see that they were
contributing by a complimentaryresponse.
So we start with a couple oftimes with the divorce question,
the repair narrative, how theyinteract with each other.
(17:04):
We ask them about their children.
We ask the question what role,if any, do your children play in
your decision-making about thefuture of your marriage?
That's always a fascinating onebecause people respond in two
ways.
Sometimes they respond with theone word answer, and to me the
one word answer is it's huge, mykids are the only reason I'm
here today.
That's basically what peoplesay.
(17:27):
Other people respond with what Icall the paragraph response,
and it's a little more nuancedand it goes a little bit like
this they start out by sayinglook, I love my kids, but I'm
not letting my kids make thisdecision for me.
Or they'll say I love my kidsand part of showing love to your
kids is being in a healthyrelationship.
And this relationship is not ata healthy place right now and
(17:48):
if it can't get there, maybe thebest thing I can do for my kids
is to get out.
So there are a lot of peoplewho say I'm not divorcing
because of my kids or I'm not atthe place of divorce because of
my kids.
And there are other people whocan nuance that and say divorce
is on the table because of mykids.
I'm specifically not interestedin telling them that this is an
(18:08):
okay relationship dynamic.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, after we ask and everybody is.
So it's personal, it's personalright, correct, everybody's got
their own reason.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
That's why we do so.
Much of our protocol is justasking one person at a time what
their thoughts, what theirexperience is, and we even say
to them hey, avoid temptation toanswer for both of, because we
know we have mixed agendacouples.
They're going to have differentresponses to all of these
questions.
So one person, when I askedthem the question about why are
(18:39):
you here, for discernment,counseling or what's going on to
get you to the point wheredivorce is a possibility?
And one person says it's theaffair that my partner had.
Well then you talk to thepartner and the partner says the
affair was a symptom of theseother things that were going on
way before.
And we're here today because ofthese other things.
And, yes, there was an affairthat happened, but that's not my
(18:59):
biggest concern as these otherthings that went on prior to
that.
So the next question we ask inthe interview is we want to hear
a little bit about what broughtthem together.
What do they enjoy about eachother?
So we ask them to think aboutthe best of times.
When was the best of times inyour relationship?
And a lot of people, especiallypeople with kids, will say
(19:19):
things like oh, before kids came.
Or they'll say, hey, when wewere dating, everything was
amazing, yeah.
And then life hits and you'vegot work and stress and kids and
things like that that demand alot of your time and attention.
Surprisingly, there's otherpeople who say things like
actually our best of times wasfour years ago.
Remember one guy saying that onhis 40th birthday four years
(19:43):
ago they went out and they didall the things that are in that
Tim McGraw song about riding abull and getting tattoos.
I mean, live like you're dyingI can't remember what the name
is, live like you were dying,yeah, yeah.
So they went and did all thosethings.
They had to drive fromMinneapolis to Chicago to find a
bull to ride in a rodeo saloonor whatever.
(20:04):
So they said that was the besttime.
I had one couple who saidactually our best of times was
only three weeks ago, and thiswas a person who said on the
phone intake I'm not sure I wantto be in my marriage anymore.
I might even have a newboyfriend, but three weeks
earlier they were together at abed and breakfast and they
really connected anyway.
(20:24):
So we want to know, when therehave been good times, what's
worth seeing in thisrelationship.
The final question we ask withthe couple, both in the room, is
what is it about yourexperience of this marriage that
your partner just doesn't quiteget?
What's it like to be you, andwhy doesn't your partner know
(20:45):
that?
Or why has that been difficultfor your partner to understand?
This piece of what's that pieceof you, that piece of your
experience that's been hard forthem to understand.
And those are pivotal questionsthat set us up for the rest of
the interview.
At that point in the interviewthen we separate, so we'll talk
to each person.
But a session of discernmentcounseling looks kind of the
(21:07):
same.
Every session looks kind of thesame.
We start out with the couple inthe room and then we excuse one
person, do a lot of one-on-oneand then repeat that and do some
one-on-one with the otherperson.
The other thing that we do iswe make sure that when we've met
with one of the members of thecouple, we ask them to give a
summary statement to theirpartner about what they're
(21:28):
taking with them.
So partners might say thingslike they might say hey, steve
and I talked about these threepaths and here's where I'm at
with the paths.
Or they might say hey, steveand I talked about these three
paths and here's where I'm atwith the paths.
Or they might say I used tothink that all our problems were
because of you, but I'mlearning that my defensiveness
is also showing up in thisrelationship and it's making it
hard for us to connect.
(21:49):
So we try to help them,language some kind of a message
to their partner, so that thepartner can kind of get a feel
for, okay, they're taking thiswork seriously, they're looking
at themselves and trying tofigure out how they might be
able to be a little different inthe relationship.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
We'll be right back after this brief message and
we're back, let's dive right in.
So I mean, this is fascinating,steve.
(22:30):
It sounds like it's more thanjust like a discernment session.
I mean discernment counseling.
Is this ongoing?
You know, in my head it waslike, okay, you have one or two
sessions to discern.
You know what do I do?
I want to stay, do I want to go, and then you go into therapy.
But it's the you're talkinglike multiple, I mean six months
of still.
I mean, does it kind of mergefrom discernment counseling to
then therapy?
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So great, great question, dave.
So so if people take the like,we think about these three paths
right.
And we think about these threepaths right that third path that
we call the reconciliation path, if a couple, through the
process of discernment,counseling, we help each person
develop what I call a personalagenda for change.
So kind of three core thingsthat each person would kind of
(23:09):
work on, and they might bethings like, let's say,
defensiveness.
I brought that up a littlewhile ago.
A person might say hey, I'mrealizing that I'm showing up to
a lot of our interactions in adefensive manner and it keeps me
from really understanding whereyou're coming from.
I would like to work on mydefensiveness in our
interactions over the next sixmonths.
That might be an example of apersonal agenda for change item
(23:31):
that somebody can implement.
It's change about themselvesthat is obviously going to have
an impact on the relationship.
Other people might say thingslike hey, I've been struggling
with my mental health lately.
My anxiety, my depression isreally kind of kicking me in the
backside.
I need to get back onmedication.
I need to have a focus on myown mental health.
(23:52):
For other people, it'saddiction.
Hey, I need to go have a drugand alcohol evaluation and get
myself right and get myselfsober and maybe I can work on
the relationship then.
But those are examples of threekind of very personal things
that somebody might take on thatare also going to have a
relationship benefit as well.
Right, if you're getting cleanand sober, you're going to show
(24:14):
up to the relationshipdifferently.
If you're prioritizing yourmental health, you're going to
show up to the relationshipdifferently.
If you're prioritizing yourmental health, you're going to
show up to the relationshipdifferently.
So we help people identify thework that they would need to do
and we share that with theirpartner.
So each person goes okay, Iknow what I can expect from Dave
.
Dave said he's going to work onthese three things, and Liz
said she's going to work onthese three things, and so Dave
(24:36):
and Liz get she's going to workon these three things, and so
Dave and Liz get to decide okay,I'm going to take this on,
you're going to take that on.
That gives me a good sense asto whether or not I'm willing to
invest another six months inthis marriage to see if we can
get to a healthier place.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Okay yeah, very helpful thing, steve.
I mean big picture.
How would you summarize?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I guess, steve, a primary job of a discernment
counselor is fill in the blank,yeah yeah, the primary job is to
paint the picture of that thirdpath, and I'm now telling
people that I'm like.
I think my job is to paint thispicture because, when you think
about who comes to discernmentcounseling, it's people who are
stuck in their status quo, whoare not happy with their status
(25:15):
quo, and all the efforts they'vemade in that status quo have
yielded them to this place, havegotten them to this place where
they still think divorce is theright option or might be the
right option, and because ofthat, they've been thinking a
lot about divorce.
Some of them are Googlingthings, some of them are
contacting lawyers.
Some of them are wondering, ifwe split everything down the
(25:36):
middle, what would that leave uswith?
What are the kids going to do?
And so they've been fantasizingand going through scenarios
about divorce already.
So I believe when a personshows up for discernment
counseling one, they're veryintimately aware of their status
quo and what that looks like,and they've been spending a lot
of time talking about divorce,wondering about divorce,
(25:58):
thinking about divorce.
That comes from other researchthat we've done on divorce
decision-making that you andI've been part of.
People think about this for along time.
People rarely think aboutdivorce and go off and sign the
papers.
It's usually a long andprotracted event, with multiple
swings of a pendulum coming backand should I stay, should I go?
(26:19):
Here's reasons to stay, here'sreasons to leave, and those
shift and change all the time.
So my primary goal as adiscernment counselor is to
paint a picture of what could beif they choose to try one last
time, with decent help anddecent effort on both their
parts, to see if they can rightthe ship, to see if they can
(26:40):
reconcile their relationship orat least get back on a path.
And I tell people look aftersix months.
You're not going to be coupleof the year after six months,
but you should be able to beputting to bed some of the old
arguments.
You should be seeing some newthings happening.
Putting to bed some of the oldarguments.
You should be seeing some newthings happening.
And actually what I see, what Ihear from couples, somewhere in
that three and four months time,that third and fourth month,
(27:04):
they start sending things likeSteve, we're actually fighting
more, but we never talked beforeand we're not having the same
arguments over and over again.
We're having impassionedarguments, but we're able to
hang in there with each other.
We know we've got this therapything on the side that we can go
to to help out.
So my job paint the picture, beable to sit with ambivalence,
(27:31):
be okay with sitting withambivalence and I think a lot of
therapists are.
If they're not prepped andprimed for that idea, you're
going to have to sit with someambivalence, provide direction
but also sit with ambivalence.
I think a lot of therapists getkind of nervous like nah,
they're not making any progressand I'm whipping out the four
(27:51):
horsemen and I'm doing thesenegative interaction loops and
I'm going to core fears andprimary emotions.
But the key they have to have apicture how things could be
different for them to experimentwith this third path, this path
three, a reconciliation path.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, very helpful Thanks.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
What are the results of discernment counseling today,
steve?
Yeah, well how many stay, howmany go?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Early on.
We started tracking our clientswho went through this process
and what we saw was about 51% ofthe couples that came in were
going down that third path.
Now that doesn't mean that allof them were successful, right.
So they'd go into discernmentcounseling.
They'd have anywhere from oneto five sessions.
They decide on path three andthen they would go off and they
(28:43):
would do their six months oftherapy or whatever, or some
extended beyond that.
Not all of those couples madeit, but like 70%, 75% of those
couples came through keepingtheir marriages intact, getting
to a healthier place.
For those couples where divorceis the option, I think it's like
(29:05):
19% I want to say 19% or 29%I'm messing up with the numbers
here there's a portion of themthat go on and get divorced and
those people, the research showsthat those people who go down
that path actually feel betterabout their co-parenting.
(29:28):
They leave that discernmentcounseling space having
understood each other in alittle different way than they
were able to while they weremarried.
So we hope that there's gainsfor that couple as well, even
though they've changed theirfamilial relationship to not be
intact.
But we hope that there's abetter outcome for their kids
(29:49):
and them having gone throughthis process I actually think
that was 29% are like that, 20,31%, something like that and
then we have like there's like19% of the couples that we work
with end up going down thestatus quo path.
Status quo, yeah, thateverybody at the outset says is
(30:14):
unacceptable.
So you might be wondering likewell, how does somebody go from
this unacceptable path to aplace where they're like okay,
this makes the most senseSometimes in discernment
counseling.
What will happen is we'll see acouple, we'll go sessions one
through four or five, onethrough four or so seem to be
getting traction and then kindof trails off.
(30:34):
They don't get traction,they're not getting the clarity
and we have to remind themaround session five or so
sometimes we go to a six thatpath one is still a path.
If you can't decide to work onit and you're not ready to end
the relationship, it's okay toclaim that you're on path one,
that you're hey, for right now,for this season in our
relationship, we're on path one.
(30:55):
What I saw, the most notableexample of this, was a guy who
in the fifth or sixth session ofthe sermon counseling, came and
said I know that right now I'mnot ready to commit to the work.
I know I can't do the work andI'm skeptical that she'd be able
to as well.
Being very honest, right, hesaid, I also know that if we
(31:18):
divorced, I'm not at a goodplace.
I would not be able to treather with the kindness and
respect that she deserves,having been such a major part of
my life.
So I can't divorce right nowand be a good guy through a
divorce process.
And he said and besides, we'vegot twin daughters that are
graduating.
We're trying to put my dad intoa nursing care facility,
(31:43):
assisted living facility.
The house is up for sale.
There's too much going on inour life to take divorce or
working on the relationship on.
So they both kind of said thatthis makes sense and they left
that session saying we're goingto commit to be in the status
quo.
So that means I'm not puttingpressure on you to make changes,
(32:06):
you're not putting pressure onme to make changes.
We both know where we're at.
We both have that clarity that,coming down the road, we're
going to kick the can a littlefurther down the road, but we're
doing it with intentionalityand we're doing it with both of
us on board.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Wow, very good.
I like hearing all this Such agood review from me, coming from
such a profound expert, drHarris, I really appreciate this
.
Do you have a story of a couplethat stands out that you'd love
to share with us today here onStronger Marriage Connection,
somebody who really put this tothe test of servant counseling
(32:40):
and came out in a way that youfelt was really successful?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
So, liz, rather than just like zeroing in on one
particular, I kind of give youan amalgam right Kind of an
aggregate For couples when theygo down that third path, the
majority of the people that godown that third path of trying
to work on their relationshipoftentimes the discernment
counseling process ishighlighted to them that it's
(33:05):
not just their partner who'sdropping the ball in the
relationship.
And so much of us, when we'rethinking about divorce or
wanting divorce, we go into ourheads and we are wonderfully
adept at tracking how poor ourpartner is at showing up as a
good relationship partner.
We oftentimes don't have thesame sense, we don't have the
(33:26):
same accuracy when we'rethinking about our own
contributions to the marriage orthe decline of the marriage.
So I think one of the thingsthat people get out of the
sermon counseling is they havesomebody that says to them and
how are you showing up?
And a lot of people say, hey, Iknow, I'm no saint.
I'm no saint in all of this.
Okay, tell me about exactly howyou're not a saint.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
What have you been doing?
What have you not been doing?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
You know, and when people get a sense like, okay,
it's not as simple as theequation that I had in my head,
there's this other side of theequation that needs to balance
out here.
I think that's one of thebiggest benefits of discernment
counseling is you've got atherapist who's trained to think
systemically.
It's not just your partner'sdrinking, it's not just your
(34:16):
partner's wanting to haveconversations with you, it's
also your distancing.
And so, just like, the personwho pursues needs to figure out
hey, I can't pursue as much.
I need to invite more toconversations.
I need to make sure that I'mnot overwhelming my partner.
The distancer also needs tounderstand hey, I can't keep
(34:36):
pulling away.
If I want to pull away, thereare ways for me to manage that.
I can tell my partner hey, Idon't want to have the
conversation right now, but I amopen to it later on.
I'm doing this thing right now.
I need to get into theheadspace to have that.
So just helping people seetheir own side of the equation
is probably one of the biggestthings that I think we provide
in discernment counseling.
And so when you think aboutsuccess, I think people going
(35:00):
and realizing I never knew I wasshowing up like this You've
made it harder for me just toblame my spouse for all of our
problems.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I just think that's so crucial, even if a couple
does divorce right, sally, we'reall from marriage.
Here, I think the three of uscould say we are and yeah, it
doesn't mean we should neverhave divorce, even though I
prefer that we didn't, butthat's not my choice to make.
But even then, I guess we'remuch more better prepared for
the next relationship when wesee ourselves, because wherever
(35:33):
we go there, we are.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yeah Well, and you all know that the popular
statistics around divorce andthere's a number of different
ways to figure the divorce rate,the rate per thousand or
whatever the one that's outthere the most is 50% of all
marriages end in divorce.
That's the one the public grabonto right and we know that in a
similar vein, second andsubsequent relationships
(35:57):
marriages, specifically, 67% endin divorce, and some of that's
because people don't learnanything about themselves.
They think I got rid of thatball and chain and now
everything's great.
Oh, looks like I married thewrong kind of person again.
But sometimes there is anelement of how have I been
showing up?
That needs to change that Ithink some people ignore or
(36:21):
maybe don't see as easily.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, very good, thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Steve, if someone is listening today and they're
thinking, man, this reallyresonates with me, or man, I
think my sister or mybrother-in-law or whatever could
really use this.
I mean, do they just hop onGoogle?
Or they're like, okay, hey, areyou a discernment counselor?
What's the first step ofsomeone right now listening,
thinking, yes, I want this Nowwhere the heck to actually go?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, I think a couple of different places.
I do think that Google is nowbecoming a greater tool for that
.
I mean, there was a time whenthe only people who were doing
discernment counseling were BillDoherty, myself and Bridget
Manley-Mayer, who were the threepeople who kind of put the
finishing touches on this modelthat Bill had been working on
for years.
(37:07):
But it's more prolific.
We've been doing a lot oftrainings here in the Twin
Cities area.
So there's a lot of people whoadvertise their practices as
offering discernment counseling.
But I think through the DohertyRelationship Institute there's
a host of people over a thousandpeople who've been trained in a
variety of different states.
So I think searching fordiscernment counseling, finding
(37:30):
a discernment counselor throughthe DRI, the Doherty
Relationship Institute,d-o-h-e-r-t-y, might be
something that people could do.
And, yeah, there's peoplewho've gone through intensive
training.
I mean we're training people inthis model in Singapore.
We're training people acrossthe globe on how to do
(37:50):
discernment counseling and it'sfinding a good home in a variety
of mental health practitioners'offices, couples, therapists'
offices as well.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, that's helpful.
We're in all 50 states and 80countries.
Many of our listeners,obviously with the Utah Marriage
Commission.
This is sponsors this podcast,or you've been out here though,
steve right, you trained I don'tknow how many therapists in
Utah, but Utah is pretty welltrained.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yeah, there are a number of people who have been
at least introduced to it.
You can only get so much in aday-long training, so sometimes
having somebody who's gonethrough that a deeper experience
might have a better chance.
And with the ubiquitous natureof online therapy, the number of
people who could provide thetraining has gone up and there's
(38:35):
more accessibility now.
Ever since COVID, we all kindof have shifted to be able to do
online therapy.
Some do it better than others,but there are people who are
certainly available.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
This is okay.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Very good.
Well, dr Harris, please tell uswhere can listeners go to find
out more about you anddiscernment, counseling, the
research you've done and anyother helpful resources that you
might have for us.
Yeah, I think that will linkthat to our show notes.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, I think probably the easiest thing is
the MNMinnesotaCouplesOnTheBringorg.
That's MN and spell it all outMinnesotaCouplesOnTheBringorg.
That'll get you to our Coupleson the Bring project, where we
talk about discernmentcounseling.
The Doherty RelationshipInstitute is another place that
talks specifically aboutdiscernment counseling.
(39:27):
I think there's a websitethat's discernmentcounselingcom
which will get you to theDoherty Relationship Institute
as well.
It's fascinating to me to havebeen part of this at the very
beginning and now to do aYouTube search.
People will just even if you'reon YouTube, you can find videos
about discernment counselingand what it is and what it's not
(39:49):
, what the approach is all about.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yeah, that's great, like Liz said, for our listeners
, we'll put all those links andinformation in our show notes so
you can go there to find outquickly how you can find out
more information.
Hey, steve, before we let yougo, I have a couple of questions
for you.
What is the takeaway of the day?
Do you have a take-home messagethat you want our listeners to
remember from all that wediscussed today?
What would that be?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Yeah, I think, with some of the research we've done
on divorce decision-making andmy experience with discernment
counseling, I would say thatjust because someone is thinking
about divorce does not meanthat divorce is inevitable.
I think that's one of the bigtakeaways that I have about this
work, because I've seen couplescome back from being on the
(40:34):
brink and they manage to be opento hearing about ways that they
could change.
They're open to seeing whethertheir partner can change, and
I've just had too manyexperiences of people who were
on the brink who were able tostep back and find the
relationship again.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Love that, love that Brings hope.
Yeah, liz, what about you?
What's your takeaway of the daywith Steve?
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Oh gosh, so many good things, so many copious notes
here.
I think it's so good for all ofus to remember with discernment
counseling both as therapistsand couples is that it's not
necessarily for change.
It's not for change, it's forclarity and confidence, and I
really love that.
I love that it's a place forambivalence to you know to be
(41:18):
welcomed.
We don't have to have theanswers and sometimes I think
that I guess it takes what ittakes.
Do you sometimes see Steve go?
Couples even go a little bitmore than five sessions?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Yeah Well, when we present it to people, we say
there's no law that says wecan't go to a sixth session if
we want to, you know.
But we know that once we hitthat sixth, maybe that seventh
that we have to start talkingabout.
Hey, that third path is still apath and maybe, even though you
didn't want it initially, maybethere's a way to think about
that first path I'm sorry thatpath one, the status quo, to
still be an option.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Okay To just hit pause that status quo, Very good
.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Yeah, Dave.
What about you?
What's the richest nugget youhope we're all going to remember
from our time with Dr SteveHarris today?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yes, this has been very enlightening.
I've been familiar with thisbut, man, the more that I hear
it, I'm jumping on the bandwagon.
I'm a big fan of this.
It reminds me of some of theresearch that you and I and Alan
Hawkins and others have donewith thinking about divorce,
soft thinkers and hard thinkersabout divorce.
You know soft thinkers and andhard thinkers about divorce.
I just I hope I can normalizethat some of this normalizes.
(42:26):
Uh, you know, it's common,common for people to think about
divorce, to think of mymarriage is in trouble or what
should I do one day, and then,yeah, that it's great.
And then, okay, now I'm backhere, kind of in this hole.
We had a blow up again, or whatabout this?
So for people kind of go onthat that m Mary's roller
coaster to you know where can Igo to help?
So I need some help, but it's Idon't want to go to therapy yet
(42:47):
or whatever.
It's man, this just feels likesuch a um, a great option, um,
at least for many couples, right, if they are not a 10 out of 10
, I'm getting divorced, but Ineed some help deciding what
path to take.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Yeah, and obviously it's not for everybody.
Like I said earlier, if you'redecided and you have your
clarity, this is not for you.
And I've turned people awaybecause they were so decided and
what they really wanted intherapy was a place to drop
their partner off and say youclean up the mess after I tell
my partner I want a divorce.
That's not what this is aboutat all.
(43:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yeah, wow, again.
Steve, thank you so much formaking time to come on to share
so much.
We sure appreciate you and yourtime.
Thanks for having me.
All right, friends, that doesit for us.
We'll see you again next timeon another episode of the
Stronger Marriage Connectionpodcast.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
And remember it's the small things that create a
stronger marriage connection.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Take good care of you .
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram,
at Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
(44:16):
guests we should have on theshow next.
If you want even more resourcesto improve your marriage or
relationship connection, visitStrongerMarriageorg, where
you'll find free workshops,e-courses, in-depth webinars,
relationship surveys and more.
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
(44:37):
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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