August 4, 2025 • 66 mins
Lisa Valentine Clark shares her extraordinary journey of love and resilience through her husband Christopher's battle with ALS, offering profound insights on how their marriage was strengthened through humor, sacrifice, and intentionally seeking joy amid terminal illness.
• Starting as friends performing in a comedy play at BYU—Lisa as a chicken, Christopher as Satan—created a foundation of laughter and friendship for their 25-year marriage
• Humor played a crucial role in their relationship, making each other laugh even through the darkest moments
• When Christopher was diagnosed with ALS in 2020, Lisa describes entering "go time" mode, committing fully to caregiving while he continued creating art until his final days
• During COVID lockdown, Christopher invited friends to entertain him through their living room window, creating unexpected moments of connection and joy
• The diagnosis shifted their marriage from equitable to sacrificial, with Lisa caring for Christopher and him focusing on leaving meaningful legacies for her and their five children
• Christopher orchestrated a surprise 25th wedding anniversary celebration two days before his death, demonstrating his outward focus even when dying
• Lisa emphasizes loyalty to friendship as the key to a stronger marriage—seeing your spouse as your best friend and being their biggest cheerleader
• Being fully present in the moment allowed them to find unexpected joy even during the most difficult circumstances
• Lisa's advice for couples facing health challenges: "Go all in" on caregiving without worrying about consequences
• For those who have lost someone: "You don't honor love by ceasing to exist—you honor it by loving, creating and living"
Listen to Lisa's podcasts, The Lisa Show and Council of Moms, wherever you get your podcasts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Her husband was diagnosed with ALS in 2020.
And for the next four years,lisa and Chris learned more
about love, life and sacrificethan most couples learn in a
lifetime.
On today's episode, dr Liz andI welcome Lisa Valentine Clark
to the show and she graciouslywalks us through how their
marriage was strengthenedthrough the struggles, walks us
(00:25):
through how their marriage wasstrengthened through the
struggles.
She teaches us about humor,patience, kindness, gratitude
and intentionally seeking outand soaking in joy.
Lisa Valentine Clark is theexecutive producer and host of
the Lisa Show podcast and theCouncil of Moms podcast.
She works as a freelance writerand actor, including the Real
Mom in the viral videos forchatbooks.
(00:46):
She wrote Real Moms Making itUp as we Go, hosted the TV show
Random Acts and headlined themusical improv TV show Showoffs.
She has starred in moviesStalking Santa, once I Was a
Beehive and Once I Was Engaged.
Lisa is the mother of fivemostly grown children.
We hope you enjoy the show.
(01:13):
Hey friends, welcome to anotherepisode of the Stronger Marriage
Connection podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity, alongside Dr Liz
Hale, our therapist.
We are aiming to bring you thevery best that we have in
marriage research and resources,along with a few tips and tools
to help you create the marriageof your dreams.
Now, today, I couldn't be moreexcited for our guest.
(01:35):
She has entertained audiencesfor more than two decades with
her quick wit and personality.
Then, in March of 2016, herhusband, christopher, was
diagnosed with ALS at age 43.
Over the next four years, theylived life to the fullest, with
love and laughter.
And here to discuss more aboutthe magic in their marriage is
(01:57):
the one and only Lisa ValentineClark.
Welcome to the show, lisa.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you for having me.
So great having you here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Thanks.
Such an honor.
Now, Lisa, every relationshiphas a story.
I love stories.
Stories are powerful and welove hearing people's marriage
stories.
So you met at Brigham YoungUniversity performing in a
comedy stage play.
That's pretty funny.
Tell us a bit about your storyand how it laid the foundation
(02:24):
for your 25 year marriage.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, you bet.
Thank you for asking.
You know, it's a tale as old astime where you do a dramatic
interpretation of the Bible likeyou do.
It was actually supposed to bea drama but my memory now sets
it as a comedy.
And I was cast as a chicken onNoah comedy.
(02:51):
Um, and I was cast as a chickenon noah's ark and christopher
was cast as satan, he got thebest role um so oh so we, we, we
met there his best friend atthe time I had known.
anyway, the three of us startedhanging out and then eventually
it was just Christopher and Ihanging out.
We were friends for about ayear and then dated for months
(03:13):
after that and then got marriedin 1995.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, that's great.
I love hearing stories likethat.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, we started off as friends.
I think that's the thing that Ithink of or remember the most
doing something ridiculous andjust making each other laugh
behind stage and on stage, andthen, when the play was over,
just thought, oh, this is fun,let's just keep hanging out.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
So yeah, that's a fun , fun way to start a
relationship, for sure, yeah,it's a fun way to start and it
sounds like you really continueand be ridiculously happy and
having fun with each otherthroughout those 25 years.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I mean, there was always fun, for sure, but yeah,
what?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
would you say what role did humor and laughter play
in your marriage?
I mean, were you two constantlyjust having a great time at
home as well, with your kidsGoing?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
to different, like going on dates, like we saw this
production of Macbeth Again,not a comedy, but laughing so
(04:32):
hard.
And I remember that I wouldcome home and my cheeks and my
stomach would hurt so hardbecause I find that I was like
laughing the whole time.
And so just I just think, youknow, we always remember how,
you know, people make us feelwhen we're around them.
And it's not that we were neverserious, because of course we
did, but I like that that ourrelationship started off like
(04:57):
look at this ridiculous thing,what do you think about that?
And it was based on that kindof joy.
And then the serious stuff andthe business of life came later.
But we were also able to do that.
We just didn't always want tolive in that and I realize a lot
of people want to just beserious all the time, right,
(05:20):
take life seriously.
And it was nice finding orbeing with somebody who, um,
knew that there was a time and aplace for everything you know
and and that was that was partof it but definitely leaned into
that.
If you can laugh about thissituation, then let's choose
that, if there's a choice rightand not really.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
It really is, I suppose, a choice.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
You make a very good point about that yeah, how
everybody gets to decide howthey want to live yeah, in this
moment right in this moment,right now that's true.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah, you know when it, when it came to my friend,
some of the dark and tough times, how were you in?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
well, two years, here were then well again, I think,
really, you know, I think a lotof people look at at the
marriage.
I mean, nobody really knowssomebody's marriage except for
the two people in it, and eventhey have a different
perspective than what on.
Like, you know, look, look like.
(06:17):
And I think from the outside,looking in, it would be really
easy to just to say, oh, youlaughed all the time and it was
great.
You know, we laughed every day,even on the horrible days.
But there were a lot of reallyserious, sobering moments that
we went through because we werepresent, right for each other,
(06:38):
and I think that's such a gift.
And as I look back about thethings that I miss the most
about that marriage, just beingseen by another person, you know
he didn't make you know, humoris such a broad word but he
never, like we teased each other, but he never made fun of me.
It never hit below the belt.
(06:59):
He like it was always somethingthat we did together and not at
the cost of the other person.
You know that kind of stuff.
So when the serious and the thedifficult times came, we had
this deep, abiding, like trustin each other of like, oh, I'm
your person and I'm on your teamand I see you and I know that
(07:20):
this isn't the time to like that.
You need, you need this rightnow that that loyalty was always
there first.
You know it.
It wasn't like humor, or wasthe the thing?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
yeah but it might look like that you know yeah,
you know one of my favoritestories just real quick along.
This is you kind ofincorporated humor with your
friends and family who wanted todo something for you and
Christopher, and I can'tremember what was Christopher's
request to sit and look out thewindow at home and then have
different people come by andentertain.
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Lisa, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Life's changing.
So in 2020, during the pandemic, when we had to be socially
distanced, this was a time whenChristopher's health was
declining quite rapidly.
So he was living with ALS andat that time he really couldn't
move very much at all, just hisneck, a little bit and one thumb
, because he was typing thingsout with this eyewear, like a
(08:16):
Stephen Hawking kind of likesetup, and that's how he
communicated.
His health was declining.
He had a feeding tube and hewas on his trilogy-like machine
to kind of help expand his lungsMost of the day, totally
exhausted, just to exist.
He was on hospice and then theworld shut down, if you'll
(08:38):
remember.
So all of our CNAs, our hospicenurses and help and therapists
all went home and so all of hiscare was up to me and our five
children who were living at home, and it was really scary
because he couldn't even get acold.
We thought, well, if you get acold, you could probably die,
because he had been living withALS for about four and a half
(09:00):
years and you just don't getbetter, you don't recover.
Every day that you live with itis your last.
So it was a pretty diresituation.
I thought the situation wasabsolutely ridiculous because,
um, you know, I needed so muchhelp but just keeping them alive
(09:21):
and and my five kids and I wasworking full-time and I just
thought this is ridiculousanyway.
So chris's response was, oh,it'll work out, and I was like,
yeah, because I'll do it yeahand he was like, yeah, you will
and you'll love it and it'll befun and I'll be like.
I was just like that's so easyfor you, even saying and, um,
(09:45):
unbeknownst to me, he had postedon social media.
He's like Lisa's doing a reallygreat job of keeping me alive.
Um, it took me about like twoand a half hours like every day
to like get him ready, to gethim like showered and dressed
and all the therapy and stretch.
Anyway, it was a kind of alaborious thing.
And and he said and um, soshe's gonna park me in front of
(10:06):
we had these three big windowsin our living room from the
hours of one to four if anybodywants to come by and entertain
me.
And it was such a funny.
I remember, like looking onsocial media and going what did
you do?
Holding up the phone, like what?
And he was kind of laughing tohimself and he's and he types
out this message.
He's like this is my serviceand this is how I help people in
(10:28):
the world.
When they serve me, a crippledman, then they feel good about
themselves.
So I'm very selfless for askingpeople to entertain me.
And I was like, yeah, you're,you're a saint, and it was
really funny.
But that invitation spoke somuch to his character because he
was like you know, what are yougoing to do?
This is so ridiculous, I wantpeople to entertain me.
(10:50):
He was thinking outside of thebox, for sure, and he wasn't
just thinking, oh, we're justgoing.
What happened was quiteremarkable.
We had friends, you know, wehad cute little neighbor friends
(11:10):
.
Come and do their dance routinefor him or come and read him
poems, like put messages ontheir window tape on the window.
We had a friend come do magictricks, one of our friends.
They were like oh, our babyjust learned how to walk, we're
going to show you.
Another one of our friends hadgot baby goats and came and
(11:34):
brought them in front of thewindow.
We had a friend that did likethis whole lip sync, like a
performance, and changed wigsand everything.
Like it was so fun and peoplewere, were just and I just was
overcome with love and we wouldjust sit there with my kids,
with Chris, and just watch it.
And you just felt so much lovebecause I mean it was a horrible
(11:55):
time.
Everything was shut down and myhusband's dying on hospice and
here we are just like laughingso hard and I just felt so much
love.
Sometimes I had to excusemyself and go in the other room
and just thought much love.
Sometimes I had to excusemyself and go in the other room
and just thought, oh, my heart'sgoing to burst.
Like people are so good and wejust had friends come by and do
that.
They were socially distant,didn't get him sick, and it just
(12:16):
was so indicative of hisattitude and this was his way of
helping me too, like in ourmarriage, where I was like I
can't do this, I can barely liftyou up, and now I have to lift
you up several times a day anddo everything and I'm so tired
and I'm mourning and I'm mad andall the things.
(12:37):
It was just horrible and he waslike I know, but I'm still here
and also this is happening too,and I think about that a lot of
.
We find happiness, we find joyin relationships and in our
connections and there's lots ofways to connect with people.
And also we find it in thepresent right.
We find it by being present inour lives and not worrying about
(13:01):
the next thing.
I knew what was coming next.
He knew what was coming next,but we couldn't do anything
about that.
But we could do that, we couldmake some good memories for our
kids, we could make someconnections in an unusual way
and, yeah, that experience hasreally stuck with me.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
All these years later it has stuck with me too, irina
, and it's such a great way foryour friends and family to be
involved.
It was really very selfish ofhim, selfless of him.
I thought Very lovey, yeah, itreally is.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I love that.
Part of that speaks to a coupleof principles.
Even positive psychology talksabout learning to slow down and
savor the moment or the stage orthe relationship or whatever.
It is kind of soak it in alittle bit if you will, rather
than kind of letting that go by.
Lisa, many of our listeners areworking through the early years
(13:52):
of marriage and the relationshipand they can find it pretty
challenging.
In fact, a lot of the researchshows that the newlywed years,
you know after the kind ofhoneymoon effect, they can go
through a lot of challenges andthink challenges and think wait,
what's wrong with me?
You mentioned creativity aswell.
Are there ways that you twomanage the stresses and the
(14:16):
challenges that inevitably comeup?
Are there intentional practicesthat help strengthen your
connection during that time?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
as you think back to those early years of marriage,
yeah, I think in the early years, the thing that those earlier
years were I don't want to sayeasy, but they were not as
difficult because we were justtwo best friends that got to
(14:46):
hang out all the time.
And I look back at that and Ithink about over our 25-year
marriage and what I've learnedabout marriage and in those
early years we really set thefoundation for what would be my
favorite parts of our marriageand that is that it was a
(15:07):
friendship.
I think sometimes I hear peopletalk about their spouse in a
different way, that they talkabout their friends, and I love
the idea that your spouse isyour best friend and so you do
things for your spouse like youwould for a best friend.
(15:28):
You give them the benefit ofthe doubt.
You're invested in helping thembe happy.
You're invested in helpingtheir dreams to come true about
what makes them happy and howthey want to live, in a way that
isn't competition but is justlike fulfillment.
(15:52):
Like we always used to tease heused to hate it when I would
tease him about like that.
It was just really hard to bethe one that loves the most
right.
Like the one that loves themost right, like, like, like
that I just, and he'd be like,no, I do and don't say that and,
um, I kind of love that thatyou don't hold back, right, like
(16:13):
that.
I think a lot of people infriendship and in marriages hold
back because they don't want tobe seen as being, um, a fool,
right, like what if it's so hardto be vulnerable and it's so
hard to like be all in being afool?
Right, it's so hard to bevulnerable and it's so hard to
be all in in a marriage and in afriendship, because what if you
get hurt?
And what if they don't love youas much as you love them?
(16:37):
Or what if it becomesembarrassing?
And all of those what ifs thatwe fear that keep us from like
true intimacy.
And I just think when you're, ifyou've decided to marry
somebody and you're in it, be init like, be the one who loves
the most, who cares, don't keeptrack.
Be the one that's the biggestcheerleader, be the one that's
(16:57):
like, yeah, how do you want tolive?
Let's live like that, like andand.
When you have two people whoare like that for each other,
it's that's.
That's what that's the thing,that's what it is, and and I
love that christopher gave thatto me and I tried to give that
to him and, um, I think that'swhat we did, established in the
early years, I think one of thebenefits of me getting married
(17:22):
so young, because I know there'sa lot of criticism about it and
I get it and like that's fair,but I just didn't worry too much
about being the one that wastoo in it.
I just thought, no, just do it,give it your all, and some
people might look at me andthink, well, that didn't work
(17:42):
out very well for you, but butthey would be wrong.
You know, even everything thatI've lost and all of the
horrible, excruciating pain thatI've been through and continue
to go through and suffering.
It's totally worth it and Idon't have any Like regrets
(18:07):
about that, and I thinkChristopher's death especially
taught me about regret, becauseyou replay things in your mind a
lot about how you live, and Ithink there are a lot of people
who are living with a lot ofregret, especially my age,
surrounding their marriage rightand their marriages where it
went wrong, and so this is mylong way of answering your
question.
It went wrong, and so this ismy long way of answering your
question, but I hope I'manswering it kind of fully is
(18:28):
that if I could go back and doit again, I would do it the same
.
And in the early years of thosemarriages you are saying to the
other person you can trust me100%, I am all in and don't hold
back on that and be theirbiggest fan and their biggest
advocate and best friend and fun, and think about you are living
(18:49):
your life.
You're not just buildingsomething for later, although
you are, but you're living itnow.
You're doing it now, andhardships and good times and
everything are always coming andgoing, always, always.
But can you be that safe placefor someone else, can you be
that home for someone else?
And trying to create that,instead of trying to measure it
(19:11):
out and make sure that it's fairand make sure that everything
you know goes your way, isn'tthe way to do it.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Do you see, Lisa?
Some people were critical ofhow, what a big fan and
cheerleader you were.
They get that right.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Oh, I don't know, I didn't really much care for
other people, but I know, liketheir opinions.
But yeah, like there, there'salways this when you sacrifice
for another person, there'salways a like a little raised
eyebrow, right.
Like so, for example, like Iwant, we both wanted to have a
lot of kids.
I wanted to as well, and I andI wanted to.
(19:48):
Anyway, you make decisions inyour marriage, right, like which
career is going to go first andwho's and how, and all of those
things are based on a lot ofpersonal decisions, right, and
they certainly are for me, and Icould go back and tell you all
the personal decisions and whywe chose this and not that and
the other.
But the important thing is thatI made the decision on what I
(20:12):
wanted to sacrifice and why, andhe made the decision for what
he wanted and why, and we lookedat it as a marriage.
I wasn't just thinking about mypersonal goals and he wasn't
just thinking about his personalgoals either.
We were thinking about it oflike, how can we build and
create the kind of life that weboth want, that allows us to
(20:33):
both be creative, that wasreally important to us to use
our talents but also to have afamily life that was rich,
because, at the end of the day,christopher had a really intense
international career andnothing was more important to
(20:55):
him than me and the kids.
And I know that and maybe fromthe outside it didn't look like
that, but I know the truth of itand he didn't care about all it
.
We had his priorities andthey're aligned with my
priorities and and that gave usa lot of and it was just really
fun when other things likeworked out.
(21:16):
You know, it was just like well,we just I don't care if we live
under a bridge, as long aswe're like happy and it's just
like the two of us.
And then we've got these funkids that we really love, like
that's the thing and that focus.
And then everything else isgravy, as the kids say right,
like everything else is sort ofextra on top of that.
(21:36):
Like, oh, you have a careerthat you love or you get to do X
, y, z.
It's just like it just seemslike a fun and great surprise.
Z.
It's just like it just seemslike a fun and great surprise.
So I'm glad that you know ourmarriage is traditional in some
senses, but untraditional, youknow, I think in that sense.
And so there were some peoplethat were like why are you doing
(22:02):
that?
Or why are you moving toEngland with two little kids and
no job, and why are you gettingthis degree and why are you
getting another degree and whyare you doing this job on the
side?
That wasn't traditional, but,man, we had a good time doing it
.
That's just pretty cool, nomatter how busy it.
Yeah, we should do it, butthat's not for everybody, but
(22:23):
for us it was, and it felt likewe were in on something and I
think really good.
Strong marriages are like, okay, are we doing this thing
together?
Not just like you do your thing, you do your thing and then
we'll come together at the endof the day, but it's like, well,
what are we doing creatingtogether, like the whole thing,
not just the career, but likethe whole life, like how are we
(22:46):
creating this together?
To me, I feel like thosemarriages that I admired and the
one that I tried to create wasbased on that, on a shared
vision and excitement for eachother.
Well said, thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
We'll be right back after this brief message and
we're back, let's dive right in.
Actually, liz, I just want tokind of recap a little bit of
what you've said, because Lizoften says this as far as the,
(23:27):
what you focus on, you know,grows, you could focus on the
challenges in the early years,really at any time in your
relationship, but you had anoutward focus, if you will, and
it was focused on friendship andthe fun and being their biggest
fan.
I love those ideas of it's notabout me, it's about you and we
and us.
And marriage is an adventure.
(23:49):
Life is an adventure, yeah, andbeing your biggest fan, I love
that.
And the foundation it's nosurprise really that John
Gottman you probably heard ofhim, oh yeah.
He's a guru that says thefoundation?
After all these years he hasthis great quote.
He says the foundation isfriendship.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
People, they just like each other, they treat each
other.
You just, we started having aconversation when I was 19 years
old, right, and when he diedand I, um, you know, uh, the
thing that I immediately missedthe most was I have so much to
(24:26):
tell him.
I remember having a panicattack two days after he died
because I was like it's onlybeen two days and I have so much
to talk to him about, and now Ihave to live like this with
this feeling, and what a greatthing to miss, right?
You know everyone's like oh,don't you feel relieved because
(24:47):
he was in so much pain or likeit was a suffering.
And I just thought this is justa different feeling.
When you have an ongoingconversation with somebody for
most of your life, like to me,man, I think that is that's the
best marriage, right?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Oh yeah, and I'm curious, lisa, in what ways did
Christopher's diagnosis of ALSchange your marriage, if at all?
For example, we know from theresearch that health issues it
could be really hard onmarriages.
So I'm curious if you used itas a gift almost in a way, did
you intentionally make more timefor each other?
(25:25):
Did you treat each otherdifferently?
Not let little things bug youanymore, more kindness, more
gratitude, those types of things.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, I mean it totally changed our marriage.
When you get a terminaldiagnosis, everything changes
Like it is not business as usual, and I remember it shifted
right in the beginning where itwas like, okay, it's like go
time, for me, he willdeteriorate every day was the
(25:56):
reality of it, and so I need toget stronger every day.
I need to balance that.
We talk so much when we talkabout marriages and
relationships, of them beingequitable.
I just don't even know whatthat means anymore.
I think that's the wrong focus.
(26:18):
I saw some statistic too thatreally depressed me just
recently about when men getterminal diagnoses.
It was something like 2.1% ofthe spouses of the women leave,
or whatever.
And then it was like when awoman gets a terminal diagnosis,
(26:39):
it was like.
It was like a like oh yeah, itwas really high.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
It was like a 600 percent more like they're more
likely to leave than they wouldnot have.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
It was like, um, the most ridiculous statistic.
And I just like, couldn't likereally look at it, because I
just thought, here's myperspective when he got that
terminal disease.
And I looked at, I just, and Isaid this to a friend he had
been such a good husband andsuch a good friend to me that
(27:11):
there was no like, there was nohesitation of like, of what I
wouldn't do to make himcomfortable.
And I realized that you knoweveryone's like oh, you're such
a saint or whatever.
And I was like, no, it's notthat, I'm really not, it's.
We had had a pattern in ourmarriage.
(27:31):
He'd been such a good husbandthat I knew he would do that for
me.
I know he'd do anything for meand I know that he would have
taken care of me if the roleshad been reversed.
So I just it made me want totake care of him all that more.
And what was really kind of coolin a horrible situation is that
our love wasn't, it was totallyproved, it wasn't theoretical,
(27:54):
like everyone's like in sicknessand health.
No matter what happens, I'll bethere for you.
I'll you know.
And it's like, will you?
But will you when you have towipe know?
And it's like will you?
But will you?
When you have to wipe up thedrool off their face, will you
do?
You know what I mean whenthey're you know, when you know
it's going to end badly, likewhat will you do?
And now I, now I know what Iwould.
(28:16):
It will do and I did it and Iand he deserved it.
He deserved the best care and Idid my best and it was.
It was like frustrating andhumiliating and it was
everything, the most extremesituations, and we got to
experience that together and wegot to say I'm sorry and we got
(28:40):
to just be in it and I just Igot to make promises to him that
I wouldn't let him suffer andthat I would take good care of
him and that I would take goodcare of our kids.
And I kept my promise to him.
And there's just something likeI'm, I'm just so like that's my
(29:02):
greatest life work, right, andit's not theoretical, you know.
And the way that he treated me,the things that he said to me,
how he treated me when he knewhe was dying, I just again, it's
not theoretical anymore.
He did it and it's nottheoretical anymore.
He did it.
He was such a good, kind,generous, loving, human and
(29:26):
partner to the end.
And we have that and I knowit's possible.
And so it's so weird, havingbeen widowed and being single
for five years almost, to talkabout marriage, because I feel
like no one really asks me aboutwhat a good marriage is and I
(29:46):
just want to say I know what itis, I had it.
It's possible anybody twoweirdos can have a great
marriage.
It's like it's the greatest joy, it's the greatest thing, and
he gave that to me.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
When he was diagnosed , Lisa, I couldn't quite hear if
you said it's go time or notime for Lisa Go time.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
It was go time.
It was like my role in themarriage became so clear to me.
You know, like I said, saidearlier a lot of times, immature
relationships you're like, well, did they call back?
Well did he, you know, did.
Well, he did.
What did he do for my birthday?
Well then, this is what I'll do, and we just kind of keep
scoring stuff and like I'm justnot interested in that kind of
relationship.
(30:35):
Um, I just think it's soimmature.
But but like we had practicedand we've been each other's
friends, that and and hadsacrificed for each other, like
sacrificed big things for eachother, both of us had.
And then, when it came to andyou get a diagnosis, you will
live on average between two andfour years.
(30:55):
This is it.
And then, and it just changedeverything because I just
thought it's go time for me.
This is the time that I turn itup and go into overdrive to
help him more than I ever have,because he is dying.
The best person in the world isdying and I'm not having that
(31:18):
experience.
We're having two totallydifferent experiences and I'm
(31:47):
not having that experience.
We're having two totallydifferent experiences and that's
hard in a marriage and that washard because he was preparing
to die and to leave and I waspreparing to help him do that
and then to be able to continueour family on by myself, which I
didn't know if I could do, andso I was going through a morning
process, he's going through amorning process and we're trying
to help each other and we're ontwo totally different paths.
Because of the nature of that,and that is a hard, hard thing.
That is probably one of thehardest things that I've ever
had to do, because your personis going through something
different and you're so used tobeing totally aligned but they
can't.
It's so cruel for me to be like,well, help me know how to live
(32:10):
without you.
Like, okay, you know.
It's just like him saying tohelp me know how to die, okay,
I'll try.
And so we just were very I justthinking this isn't about you
at all and that's okay.
This is just how it is and hedeserves that.
(32:31):
So just give it to him andworry about the rest later.
You know what I mean, yep.
Well, I can't even imagineactually, but I hear you world,
Because sometimes we would, youknow, be able to help each other
, like I'm having a really hardday and thinking about this and
we would still be there for eachother.
But there are some momentswhere you're just like, oh, I'm
not going to put this on him atthis moment, because it's
(32:52):
happening to him so.
So it did change our marriagein that sense, and in that way
it's so hard because nobody Ihad known had ever gone through
that, and so I felt really alone.
I can imagine you were alone.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
But you know, I've kind of forgotten hearing that a
lot of that onus responsibilityof caregiving fell on your
shoulders regarding the time ofCOVID, a huge, huge burden for
caring for him, for yourchildren, and so I was wondering
, if you know it was go time andactually no time for Lisa as
(33:31):
well?
How did you take?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
care of yourself.
I didn't, I didn't, and it'sokay because I mean, I did the
best I could under extraordinarycircumstances.
Um, then then came years laterand then came, you know, health
problems and things like thatbecause of the consequences of
(33:53):
that, which are fine, like okay,great.
But um, you know, life is long,long and for some of us and
that was an extraordinary time,and I did receive strength
beyond my own I still don't knowhow all of that happened, but I
(34:14):
give that to God.
It was me and God, and I waslike, well, I have no solutions
to offer and I'm going to need alot more help, and I don't even
know what to ask for, becausethis is the most ridiculous
situation.
And, um, and so my faith, uh,really, really kicked.
In.
Um, I mean, it was always there, but it was just like, okay, it
was like walking off a cliffand trusting that somebody was
(34:35):
going to catch you and uh, so sothat was the, the next part of
that, for sure it's the ultimatetrust, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (34:44):
oh yeah, again, not theoretical anymore right during
that time, how did you helpyour five children stay involved
and connected with each otherthrough their dad's illness and
they?
They took turns helping youcare for him.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Like you said it, was really tricky because they were
all at different levelsdevelopmentally and so different
ages, and it was a familyaffair to take care of dad and
he would tease them and writehim little messages on his
screen so they communicated andhe would share different things
with them share, you know, he'sreally into film and one of my
(35:18):
kids is really into film and sothey would watch all these old
films together.
Other kids, like my oldest,really became the second
caregiver and would take theshift from 10 pm to 10 am and I
would take 10 am to 10 pm and wejust kind of helped each other
that way and so that was verytender and the other children
(35:41):
would come and help him.
It was really hard because withdifferent developmental things
happening and also during COVID,a lot of them were very
depressed and anxious and wetried to create regular days.
We tried to create oh, we getup and have breakfast and do our
schoolwork and laugh and dosomething fun and then do this
(36:04):
and then talk together and tryto keep it like those ordinary
days.
Those ordinary days of familylife are where it's at right.
That's better than a trip toDisneyland, that's better than a
deathbed confessional.
It really just is.
There's nothing like theordinary day of just being with
(36:26):
your family.
It's the most precious thing inthe whole world.
And so that COVID time gavetime.
My kids most of them wereteenagers at the time and I
think had they not been forcedto, would have, like most
teenagers, been with theirfriends a lot, been outside and,
because it was pretty intense,your dad's dying of a terminal
(36:50):
disease Like who wouldn't wantto escape that and
developmentally they're notthinking about how that's going
to affect them, but because oflater down the line, but because
it was COVID, they had to, andnow they have no regrets that
they didn't spend enough timewith their dad, and so I like to
(37:13):
remind them of that.
You spent a lot of time withyour dad.
He knew how much you loved himand we talk about the funny
things that he did and said, wetalk about the meaningful things
, but they have good memoriesand he gave them that.
He could have made it sotraumatic and crying every day,
and he left them with some funmemories, with some good
(37:36):
memories, with some clear advice.
Such a gift, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Really.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Yeah, I mean, not everybody gets that, so they get
that?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
No, yeah, wow, lisa, I'm guessing that taking care of
Christopher for these severalyears wasn't just a one-sided
effort, if you will, you talkeda little bit about that, but I
love this theme of turningoutward.
And in what ways didchristopher, you know, while he
could turn outward and and focuson you, you know he saw the
sacrifice, maybe you wearingdown, you getting tired.
I can only imagine, from thecharacter that you've described
him, that he's like I'm gonna dowhatever I can for.
(38:15):
Oh, he totally did, yes oh, somany things.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
You know he would make me laugh.
He would write me messages,text me funny things that he was
thinking about.
He always had something to like, for us to like look forward to
, would need later.
(38:46):
Like when he told me about what, uh he wanted, uh, my life to
be like when he left, I just I,it was the worst conversations
and he'd say, I know, but I wantyou to hear this, and he would
tell me, um, great thanks andand um, that was very generous.
He uh talked to my friends andthat was very generous.
He talked to my friends andgave them advice on how to take
care of me when he was gone.
(39:06):
He did the same thing with ourchildren.
He made sure that everythingwas in order.
Soon after his diagnosis, wewent and got everything in a
trust so that when it was likeend of life care and those
decisions he wanted to make,those when he was coherent what
a gift.
He wrote his own funeral.
(39:28):
What a gift.
He said this.
He wrote his own life story,what he wanted to be remembered
for.
What a gift.
All of those things that causeso much like stress and grief
and heaviness he was able to say, and I think the biggest thing
is he gave me those ordinarydays like I was talking about.
We still are going to go out ondate night, we're still going
(39:54):
to have those intimate momentsand he wanted to be able to be
just adapt as much as possibleso that I was happy.
He planned an elaborate 25thwedding anniversary surprise two
days before he died.
He couldn't move or speak.
He called in favors.
(40:14):
He called our friend in tocater a meal and I'm like you
can't even eat.
He's like I'll just watch youeat.
And he called ourbrother-in-law that and had him
make me a silver brace becauseit's the 25th anniversary of
silver, a silver bracelet.
He had one of our friends comeand sing, hey, who was on
(40:36):
American Idol.
I was like Ryan and he was sogreat.
He had another one of ourfriends you know our theater
friends come and decorate thebackyard and this elaborate so
it looked like an Italianrestaurant.
Of course, all of this duringCOVID, so that we were all
socially distant, just sobbing,separated from each other, just
(41:03):
being like what is happening,and he was in a lot of pain at
that time.
But he wanted to give me a biganniversary present.
He wanted to tell me how muchhe loved me.
And who does that while they'redying?
Chris Clark does that.
And I just was like, oh, you'remaking this hard for me that.
(41:26):
And I just was like, oh, you're, you're making this hard for me
.
But so to say, that's just oneexample of a lot of of like,
really like tender, sweet thingsthat he continually did for me.
He would say you're doing sucha good job of keeping me alive,
like I know I've lived yearsextra than I would have if I
didn't get such good care andyou take such I don't worry
about our kids at all becauseyou're going to take care Like.
(41:47):
He just had such a confidencein me that I just didn't have.
And that was really sweet.
He just was my biggestcheerleader and thought I could
do anything, even when I waslike I, I can't, I'm really
grumpy and I'm kind of ahorrible person.
And he'd be like, no, you'renot.
You know, when someone sees thebest in you, is that the best
(42:11):
marriage right?
Like sees the best version ofyou to give you the benefit of
the doubt.
It makes you want to be thatperson.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
You know it just does so she was your biggest
cheerleader fan, yeah, up to hisdying day, literally in his
last, his last, oh yeah, oh, Ihad not heard of your 25th
wedding anniversary that sounds.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
That's very special wow yeah, portable.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
It was amazing, yeah, and then he went into a coma
and passed like a movie yeah,like yeah, yeah, and I was like
okay, chris, I will be happy foryou then you said earlier in
(42:57):
our interview about how wereally are responsible for our
thoughts and our, our actionsand we we have control over how
we respond, and you use that, um, literally individually as well
as collectively in in marriage.
Tell us more about about thatyou really took ownership of how
you showed up every day.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
It sounds like lisa well, uh, you know, that's life,
right?
I, when chris got his diagnosis, we were both in the middle of
like a very busy time for us, um, and I remember he had to go
speak at a conference for hiswork and I had a job I had an
acting job that I was gonna goto california, and I remember we
(43:41):
got this diagnosis and it wasit takes kind of a long time to
get diagnosed and in that timewe're just an absolute mess and
there was a little bit of arelief in, okay, this is what it
is, this is what we're facing,right.
But also like, okay, this isliterally the worst case
scenario, like we can't fightthis, like we can't get chemo or
(44:03):
treatments, or like we can't doanything.
And so I I was like and, chris,we were dealing with it and
trying to figure out how we tellour kids and our friends and
family.
And and then I was like, wellthen, obviously you're not going
to your conference and I'm notgoing to go to california, and
obviously we're not gonna, youknow.
And he was like not going to goto California, and obviously
we're not going to, you know.
(44:23):
And he was like what are youtalking about?
And I was like, well, he's likewell, what should we do, like
stop living life?
And I was like, yeah, kind of I, I was like I don't want to
leave the house, I want to getin bed.
That seems like I don't thinkI'm wrong here.
That's actually seems like theappropriate response.
And I remember he looked at meand he said well, you can do
(44:47):
whatever you want, obviously,but I'm not going to live like
that.
I'm going to like we had somefriends that were getting
married and he was like I'mgoing to the wedding and then
the next day I'm going to workand I'm going to go to this
conference and I'm going to livemy life.
We've got, because that is theonly way that I can do this,
lisa, he's like I, I, I'm goingto live my life and live it to
(45:10):
the fullest, now that I knowthat there's a there's a clock
on it and you can do whateveryou want.
But that's not going to makeyou happy, just so you know.
And it was kind of a little bitof this tough love of like, not
like oh, honey, it's going tobe okay.
It was like I don't know ifyou're kidding, and I actually
don't think you're kidding, butI'm not going to, I I'm not
(45:30):
doing that.
And I was like, okay, I guessI'll go act and be funny like
and and.
But I like that because itreally put into focus of I can,
I could do whatever I wanted todo.
I could have gotten back in bed, and there have been days that
I've done that, of course, andjust felt sorry for myself.
(45:51):
It's not how I want to live.
It actually doesn't make youfeel any better and it doesn't
do any good.
I've learned doesn't do anygood.
Um, I've learned.
Um.
But what he did, which was, well, I'm going to keep directing
and and and creating art andbeing with my friends and being
in a good dad and husband and,um, I'm going to do those things
(46:15):
and I'm just going to adapt ituntil I die.
And that's exactly what he did,because when he died, he was he
.
When he died, he had stoppeddoing some things that he could,
but he was still creating, hewas still writing plays, he was
still on Zoom and pre-productionfor a couple of things.
He was our kid's self-appointedseminary and theater teacher
(46:35):
during COVID and he was typingout blessings for our kids and
he was typing out his life storyand getting his pictures like
he was still creating and doingevery single day of his life.
He never stopped.
You know, when he couldn't playthe piano anymore he was like,
okay, well, then I'll just keepdirecting.
And when he couldn't speakanymore he stopped directing and
teaching and then he just wasproducing and he just kept going
(46:59):
and he really lived that.
And it's been a good example tome, because after he died and
the lights went out and life wasjust stupid, I thought I can
stop and disappear or I can keepcreating and doing like Chris
did, and then maybe that willcreate something new.
(47:23):
And it did.
It created some hope.
And so when I say that we getto choose how we live our lives
and I think about Chris andwithin a marriage, it's
absolutely like you areresponsible for your own
happiness.
If you are looking for theother person to make you happy
(47:44):
or to give you meaning, that'stoo heavy to put that on a
burden on someone and it's justnot how we live life.
At the end of the day, we areborn alone, we die alone.
Even if we're surrounded withour loved ones or whatever, is
it a solitary thing and you'restill alone.
(48:04):
And what a gift.
It is to be in a marriage,though, with someone that says I
am responsible for my ownhappiness and I'm actively
choosing to be happy as much asI can and be in it with you, no
matter what you choose, what agift.
(48:26):
But we don't talk about marriage.
I think a lot in those terms,do we?
No, we, talk about it in termsof being equal and what you can
give and holding and withholding.
And you need to make me happyand you need to do these lists.
And I'm looking for this kindof person that checks off these
and it's just like what is thatlist?
Listen, I'm looking for thiskind of person that checks off
these and it's just like what isthat list?
(48:46):
Who do you want to be and whodo you want to have?
Come along for the ride.
It is a little bit moreinviting and it's creating
something together that youdon't know the future of, but
you're creating it together,you're not dictating it.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah, we'll be right back after this brief message,
and we're back, let's dive rightin.
I love that.
Emily bell freeman has actuallydescribed your love.
(49:20):
Uh, at least for each other.
Is this brave love right?
This kind that isn't afraid to,to risk to, to give, to
sacrifice?
It's not focused on the tit fortat, the equal, no, and I love
that about you, has it alwayskind of just been that way?
Is the outward focus this bravelove?
We're all in on this journey.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
I think we learned it together right, like a lot of
things in a marriage.
We stumbled into it and I justremember early, especially early
on in his diagnosis, a friendasked me point blank if you knew
, if you knew that he was gonnathis was gonna happen to you and
(50:02):
to your family and to him,would you go back and you I
won't tell anyone, I won't tellhim, I will not tell a soul
would you go back and marry himagain?
And I said yeah, like no, doubt100%.
And she's like okay, there youhave it Now you know, and you
don't ever have to doubt.
And I thought what a gift itwas that she asked me that, like
(50:25):
right, when everything was rawand I was trying to figure out
what was going to go on, becausewe all know that something
happens to when you are acaregiver to somebody.
You love them, you love who youserve.
Right when you are a caregiver,like a mother to a child who
literally cannot survive withoutyou, and then you turn that and
(50:51):
I knew that that's what I wasfacing with Chris.
Chris is that I would be givingeverything that I have to keep
him alive and for his comfort.
I knew I would fall deeper inlove with him, and I knew that
that would hurt me even morebecause I loved him so much.
And the thought of losing him, Icouldn't even think about it.
I couldn't even think about thefuture.
It was like so dark.
Losing him, I couldn't eventhink about it.
(51:11):
I couldn't even think about thefuture.
It was like, so dark and I waslike, if I care for him a
hundred percent, like as much asI can and more, it's going to
hurt me later.
And I still did it, and he stilldid it, and he did that for me.
And it was like, and I rememberthinking I've got to make the
choice Am I going to keep adistance, you know, so that it
doesn't hurt so much, and sothat I care for him?
(51:32):
But it's like, or am I justgonna just let myself just go
deeper?
And I just was like I don'twant any regrets.
I don't know what will happen,what emily meant, but that's
what I took it as is.
We looked at each other like,okay, you're it, let's do it,
(51:54):
and we did just give everythingto each other.
It wasn't one-sided at all, but, um, it was life-altering and
um, I don't regret it, but, um,it has a cost yeah and, and I'll
just say that yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (52:14):
Well, no doubt all of us will face something in life,
right, it's serious,life-altering health or some
other challenge.
We're going to be going throughit.
What advice do you have,especially for those couples
maybe, who right now are facingserious health challenges Lisa,
or maybe someone who's losttheir sweetheart?
Speaker 2 (52:37):
I think the advice would be different.
If somebody is going throughsomething with that's life
threatening with their partner,I would I would say just go all
in, just take care of them.
Just go all in, just take careof them, don't worry about the
(52:58):
consequences of that.
Uh, that kind of servicecreates a deep love that is hard
to describe and, um, it'sworthy of, like a life focus.
It has value.
It is worthy.
Um, we don't value it as asociety at all, but that doesn't
matter.
It's still absolutely worth it.
(53:18):
Don't worry about what comesnext For those who have lost
someone.
I think my advice is the advicethat Christopher gave me before
he died, that I didn't want tohear that.
Now I hear loud and clear thatyou don't honor the love that
(53:40):
you had with someone, therelationship that you had, by
ceasing to exist, by giving up,by swearing off love and life
and good memories and personaldevelopment.
You don't honor love and thatrelationship that way.
You honor it by going out andloving and creating and living
(54:05):
and being present in your life.
And it's not a betrayal.
You never forget.
It has already changed you.
You can, can't.
The memories are you.
You are a result of thatrelationship, you will be more
equipped to love people in thefuture.
Because of that.
That's the whole point.
So I would just say just don'tgive up um the idea of living
(54:30):
and and loving because, uh,you've done it so intensely.
You honor that by continuing todo it Beautiful advice.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
Lisa, you've talked in the past about finding joy in
life, you know, and thatinvolves hope, it involves being
present in the moment we talkedabout earlier.
It involves gratitude.
Tell us your thoughts aboutfinding and kind of just soaking
in joy.
Right, this life is about joyand happiness and, yes, there
will be challenges.
How have you been able toalmost like slow down and say,
(55:04):
hey, let me just appreciateright now?
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Yeah, I think I mean implicit in your question is
this idea of recognizing whereit is now.
I think a lot of times we havethis expectation of what it will
look like for us, so that wemiss what it actually is when it
shows up.
And I think the first thing isto recognize that you're worthy
of it, that no one is excludedfrom the idea of joy.
(55:29):
I think we try to excludeourselves or other people from
who gets to have joy and underwhat circumstances.
I mean, during a globalpandemic, when everything's shut
down and your husband is dyingof a terminal disease and you
have five teenagers at home whoare super mad and depressed,
should you have joy?
No, you shouldn't.
But guess what we did?
You know what I mean, and if Ihad clung to this idea of what
(55:53):
it should look like instead ofjust recognizing what it
actually is in the moment, whichwas totally different than I
thought it was going to be Iwould have missed it.
(56:32):
Joy is our birthright.
I just believe that it is ourbirthright that men are, that
they might receive joy.
I think everything that hasbeen given to us by our Heavenly
Father is for this ultimate joy, which doesn't mean and what is
actually happening and you feelthe depths of sorrow and the
injustice of life.
And I think it gives you asuperpower to be able to see the
light and to see joy andrecognize it, because you're
more desperate for it, and tofeel it more deeply and to
appreciate it.
(56:52):
And so I think if people arenot feeling that kind of joy
that they want to, is just tomaybe like recognize.
Do you think that this is partof your birthright?
Is this why you're here or not?
And then being able to say,well, where might you see it
that you might not have haverecognized it before, does it
make it any less true?
you know, yeah, and I think youonly recognize that by being in
(57:16):
the present right, like being inyour life, being in your body,
experiencing what is actuallyhappening, instead of being
haunted by the past or fearfulof the future that you have to
be present, and that is a mentalgame yeah, it really is,
because our brain wants to go tothe past with anger, regret and
(57:36):
or the future was stressingwell, and honestly, too, if
you've been through trauma,intrusive thoughts too, right,
like that's a real thing, andand and taking care of your body
means taking care of your mindand your mental health and and
um, I have some experience withthat of like, trying to, like,
you know, having horrible dreamsand intrusive thoughts and
panic attacks and things likethat, and being able to take the
(57:57):
time to heal.
That.
To recognize this doesn't meanthat it excludes me from joy and
it doesn't mean that thosethings are true, but it does
mean that I need to get healthyright like so yeah, but
realizing that it's possible andthat it's going to look a
little bit differently is, Ithink, the way that that door
sort of opens.
It did for me when I had no hopefor like a happy future or
(58:20):
anything.
I was just like, well, it'sover, I don't even care
individual thing for everybody.
But by being present andrecognizing all of the things
that I didn't know andacknowledging that was a start
to that and realizing, no, thisis actually is this is actually
important to God, this isactually an important idea to to
(58:43):
me, for my children.
So this is something that Ineed to give the time to really
think about.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Wow, Lisa, before we let you go, you've been so
generous with your time and allkinds of insights and tips and
things for us to think about.
We'd like to ask all of ourguests a couple questions.
The first one is what do youfeel like is the key to a
stronger marriage connection?
Speaker 2 (59:06):
I think the key to a stronger marriage connection is
a loyalty to friendship for eachother.
I do Loyalty.
Speaker 3 (59:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
A loyalty in friendship, I think, is the
easiest way I can say it.
Speaker 1 (59:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great.
Second question is we call it atakeaway of the day.
Do you have a takeaway of theday for us, a parting counsel,
something you want our listenersto remember from our discussion
today of the day for us, aparting counsel, something you
want our listeners to rememberfrom our discussion?
Speaker 2 (59:31):
today.
Yeah, I think my takeaway todayis that and this may sound
really cheesy- but I don't care,I can't wait.
That's delicious.
Love is a gift, right, and youcan categorize it however you
(59:54):
want Charity, pure love,romantic love, friendship love,
whatever.
I do think that there is thatlove.
Anytime you decide to give thatto someone, it is such a gift
and by seeing it that way andnot just assuming that it should
(01:00:15):
be there, not just assumingthat it's just how we live, but
like seeing it as somethingspecial, helps us to not take it
for granted and helps us togive it to people more
intentionally, in a way thatthey can feel it, not just the
way that we want to give it tothem.
I think that improves all ofour relationships and I think
having strong relationships likewith friends, with your family,
(01:00:38):
with your children, actuallyhelps your marriage become
stronger, because you're justpracticing love in a different
form and that one person thatyou've chosen to really focus
most of your love on benefitsfrom that.
So seeing love like that andlike it's a gift, that it's not
(01:00:59):
a wasted thing when you do that,but that it's an actual,
intentional thing, I think couldchange a lot of people's lives.
Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
That's beautiful.
Yeah, thank you, Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway of the day?
You?
Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
know Dave and Lisa.
Before our interview I wouldhave said if people had asked,
why are you kind of all in onyour marriage?
I would have said, oh yeah, ofcourse I am.
And now I'm thinking, gosh, Ithink I've got some area of
improvement.
Obviously I don't know if Ineed to get a big B on my
t-shirt for Ben or what I needto do about Lisa.
You're making me think abouthow that could look even better
(01:01:36):
to be all in marriage, to beloyal to that friendship.
I'm really grateful for yourbeautiful words of wisdom today,
dave.
What about you?
What's your richest nugget?
You hope that all of usremember from our time together
with Lisa Valentine Clark.
Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Yeah, super powerful.
Lisa.
I think your story talkingabout Chris, when he turned
outward, he would focus on you.
I don't know.
For some reason this reallytouched me because I feel like
when we are suffering, whenwe're going through it, when
we're stressed, when we're mad,whatever it is that we're going
through, to have an outwardmindset, to turn outward is
(01:02:13):
really hard, because when we'refeeling that, the natural
response is to turn inward andwhen I'm inward I can't even see
you or see what you need me.
But I am just moved byChristopher's when he's going
through it.
He's dying and yet he's likekids and you and I'm going to
take care of that.
That 25th anniversary, itleaves me speechless honestly, I
(01:02:36):
know.
For him to think ahead and toplan.
Just that outward mindset ofhim planning and thinking, it's
powerful.
If we could all live like Chrisholy smoke when we're going
through it, that is the ultimate.
It feels like this charity,this that love, it's mind
boggling to me.
Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
You're right.
Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
You're right, powerful.
Thank you, lisa.
Lisa, where can our listenersgo to find out more about you?
You've got podcast resources,please share.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Thanks.
I host the Lisa show, where wetalk about, like living a good
life.
It's like going to lunch with afriend Right and and and
sharing this kind of stuff aboutrelationships, but also you
know parenting and and ADHD andyou know estate planning.
I mean, I mean a milliondifferent things.
I'm looking at Like we, we talkabout sleep hygiene and family
(01:03:26):
culture and you know all thisstuff that goes into living life
.
So the Lisa show wherever youfind your podcasts.
And I also host another showcalled Council of Moms, where we
get a bunch of moms togetherand we're like, okay, what are
we doing about this to help youfeel like you're not alone in
all of it when you the mostimportant job that you're doing.
(01:03:48):
So that's really fun too, andyou can find that wherever you
get your podcasts as well.
And we'll be sure to put linksto those for our listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
We're going to put links in our show notes for
Talisa, her podcast, the greatwork that she's doing, and, of
course, I've seen her many timeswith John, by the way, hank
Smith, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
We have such a good time together.
Yeah, it's such a good time.
You, you guys look like you.
Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Yeah, it's such a good time.
You're laughing as much as weare in the audience.
It's so fun to see you guysperform.
Thanks, such a fun time.
Well, lisa, thanks so much formaking time, for opening up, for
sharing with us and ourlisteners.
Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
Thank you, thanks for having me, thanks for letting
me talk about Christopher andmarriage.
Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
Thank you what a blessing.
Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
Thank you for sharing your heart and your love.
Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Yes, yeah, we appreciate you and our friends.
We will see you next time onanother episode of stronger
marriage connection.
Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
And remember it's a small things that create a
stronger marriage connection.
Take good care.
Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(01:05:07):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(01:05:28):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(01:05:52):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
Her husband was diagnosed with ALS in 2020.
And for the next four years,lisa and Chris learned more
about love, life and sacrificethan most couples learn in a
lifetime.
On today's episode, dr Liz andI welcome Lisa Valentine Clark
to the show and she graciouslywalks us through how their
marriage was strengthenedthrough the struggles, walks us
(00:25):
through how their marriage wasstrengthened through the
struggles.
She teaches us about humor,patience, kindness, gratitude
and intentionally seeking outand soaking in joy.
Lisa Valentine Clark is theexecutive producer and host of
the Lisa Show podcast and theCouncil of Moms podcast.
She works as a freelance writerand actor, including the Real
Mom in the viral videos forchatbooks.
(00:46):
She wrote Real Moms Making itUp as we Go, hosted the TV show
Random Acts and headlined themusical improv TV show Showoffs.
She has starred in moviesStalking Santa, once I Was a
Beehive and Once I Was Engaged.
Lisa is the mother of fivemostly grown children.
We hope you enjoy the show.
(01:13):
Hey friends, welcome to anotherepisode of the Stronger Marriage
Connection podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity, alongside Dr Liz
Hale, our therapist.
We are aiming to bring you thevery best that we have in
marriage research and resources,along with a few tips and tools
to help you create the marriageof your dreams.
Now, today, I couldn't be moreexcited for our guest.
(01:35):
She has entertained audiencesfor more than two decades with
her quick wit and personality.
Then, in March of 2016, herhusband, christopher, was
diagnosed with ALS at age 43.
Over the next four years, theylived life to the fullest, with
love and laughter.
And here to discuss more aboutthe magic in their marriage is
(01:57):
the one and only Lisa ValentineClark.
Welcome to the show, lisa.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you for having me.
So great having you here.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Thanks.
Such an honor.
Now, Lisa, every relationshiphas a story.
I love stories.
Stories are powerful and welove hearing people's marriage
stories.
So you met at Brigham YoungUniversity performing in a
comedy stage play.
That's pretty funny.
Tell us a bit about your storyand how it laid the foundation
(02:24):
for your 25 year marriage.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, you bet.
Thank you for asking.
You know, it's a tale as old astime where you do a dramatic
interpretation of the Bible likeyou do.
It was actually supposed to bea drama but my memory now sets
it as a comedy.
And I was cast as a chicken onNoah comedy.
(02:51):
Um, and I was cast as a chickenon noah's ark and christopher
was cast as satan, he got thebest role um so oh so we, we, we
met there his best friend atthe time I had known.
anyway, the three of us startedhanging out and then eventually
it was just Christopher and Ihanging out.
We were friends for about ayear and then dated for months
(03:13):
after that and then got marriedin 1995.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, that's great.
I love hearing stories likethat.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, we started off as friends.
I think that's the thing that Ithink of or remember the most
doing something ridiculous andjust making each other laugh
behind stage and on stage, andthen, when the play was over,
just thought, oh, this is fun,let's just keep hanging out.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
So yeah, that's a fun , fun way to start a
relationship, for sure, yeah,it's a fun way to start and it
sounds like you really continueand be ridiculously happy and
having fun with each otherthroughout those 25 years.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I mean, there was always fun, for sure, but yeah,
what?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
would you say what role did humor and laughter play
in your marriage?
I mean, were you two constantlyjust having a great time at
home as well, with your kidsGoing?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
to different, like going on dates, like we saw this
production of Macbeth Again,not a comedy, but laughing so
(04:32):
hard.
And I remember that I wouldcome home and my cheeks and my
stomach would hurt so hardbecause I find that I was like
laughing the whole time.
And so just I just think, youknow, we always remember how,
you know, people make us feelwhen we're around them.
And it's not that we were neverserious, because of course we
did, but I like that that ourrelationship started off like
(04:57):
look at this ridiculous thing,what do you think about that?
And it was based on that kindof joy.
And then the serious stuff andthe business of life came later.
But we were also able to do that.
We just didn't always want tolive in that and I realize a lot
of people want to just beserious all the time, right,
(05:20):
take life seriously.
And it was nice finding orbeing with somebody who, um,
knew that there was a time and aplace for everything you know
and and that was that was partof it but definitely leaned into
that.
If you can laugh about thissituation, then let's choose
that, if there's a choice rightand not really.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
It really is, I suppose, a choice.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
You make a very good point about that yeah, how
everybody gets to decide howthey want to live yeah, in this
moment right in this moment,right now that's true.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah, you know when it, when it came to my friend,
some of the dark and tough times, how were you in?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
well, two years, here were then well again, I think,
really, you know, I think a lotof people look at at the
marriage.
I mean, nobody really knowssomebody's marriage except for
the two people in it, and eventhey have a different
perspective than what on.
Like, you know, look, look like.
(06:17):
And I think from the outside,looking in, it would be really
easy to just to say, oh, youlaughed all the time and it was
great.
You know, we laughed every day,even on the horrible days.
But there were a lot of reallyserious, sobering moments that
we went through because we werepresent, right for each other,
(06:38):
and I think that's such a gift.
And as I look back about thethings that I miss the most
about that marriage, just beingseen by another person, you know
he didn't make you know, humoris such a broad word but he
never, like we teased each other, but he never made fun of me.
It never hit below the belt.
(06:59):
He like it was always somethingthat we did together and not at
the cost of the other person.
You know that kind of stuff.
So when the serious and the thedifficult times came, we had
this deep, abiding, like trustin each other of like, oh, I'm
your person and I'm on your teamand I see you and I know that
(07:20):
this isn't the time to like that.
You need, you need this rightnow that that loyalty was always
there first.
You know it.
It wasn't like humor, or wasthe the thing?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
yeah but it might look like that you know yeah,
you know one of my favoritestories just real quick along.
This is you kind ofincorporated humor with your
friends and family who wanted todo something for you and
Christopher, and I can'tremember what was Christopher's
request to sit and look out thewindow at home and then have
different people come by andentertain.
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Lisa, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Life's changing.
So in 2020, during the pandemic, when we had to be socially
distanced, this was a time whenChristopher's health was
declining quite rapidly.
So he was living with ALS andat that time he really couldn't
move very much at all, just hisneck, a little bit and one thumb
, because he was typing thingsout with this eyewear, like a
(08:16):
Stephen Hawking kind of likesetup, and that's how he
communicated.
His health was declining.
He had a feeding tube and hewas on his trilogy-like machine
to kind of help expand his lungsMost of the day, totally
exhausted, just to exist.
He was on hospice and then theworld shut down, if you'll
(08:38):
remember.
So all of our CNAs, our hospicenurses and help and therapists
all went home and so all of hiscare was up to me and our five
children who were living at home, and it was really scary
because he couldn't even get acold.
We thought, well, if you get acold, you could probably die,
because he had been living withALS for about four and a half
(09:00):
years and you just don't getbetter, you don't recover.
Every day that you live with itis your last.
So it was a pretty diresituation.
I thought the situation wasabsolutely ridiculous because,
um, you know, I needed so muchhelp but just keeping them alive
(09:21):
and and my five kids and I wasworking full-time and I just
thought this is ridiculousanyway.
So chris's response was, oh,it'll work out, and I was like,
yeah, because I'll do it yeahand he was like, yeah, you will
and you'll love it and it'll befun and I'll be like.
I was just like that's so easyfor you, even saying and, um,
(09:45):
unbeknownst to me, he had postedon social media.
He's like Lisa's doing a reallygreat job of keeping me alive.
Um, it took me about like twoand a half hours like every day
to like get him ready, to gethim like showered and dressed
and all the therapy and stretch.
Anyway, it was a kind of alaborious thing.
And and he said and um, soshe's gonna park me in front of
(10:06):
we had these three big windowsin our living room from the
hours of one to four if anybodywants to come by and entertain
me.
And it was such a funny.
I remember, like looking onsocial media and going what did
you do?
Holding up the phone, like what?
And he was kind of laughing tohimself and he's and he types
out this message.
He's like this is my serviceand this is how I help people in
(10:28):
the world.
When they serve me, a crippledman, then they feel good about
themselves.
So I'm very selfless for askingpeople to entertain me.
And I was like, yeah, you're,you're a saint, and it was
really funny.
But that invitation spoke somuch to his character because he
was like you know, what are yougoing to do?
This is so ridiculous, I wantpeople to entertain me.
(10:50):
He was thinking outside of thebox, for sure, and he wasn't
just thinking, oh, we're justgoing.
What happened was quiteremarkable.
We had friends, you know, wehad cute little neighbor friends
(11:10):
.
Come and do their dance routinefor him or come and read him
poems, like put messages ontheir window tape on the window.
We had a friend come do magictricks, one of our friends.
They were like oh, our babyjust learned how to walk, we're
going to show you.
Another one of our friends hadgot baby goats and came and
(11:34):
brought them in front of thewindow.
We had a friend that did likethis whole lip sync, like a
performance, and changed wigsand everything.
Like it was so fun and peoplewere, were just and I just was
overcome with love and we wouldjust sit there with my kids,
with Chris, and just watch it.
And you just felt so much lovebecause I mean it was a horrible
(11:55):
time.
Everything was shut down and myhusband's dying on hospice and
here we are just like laughingso hard and I just felt so much
love.
Sometimes I had to excusemyself and go in the other room
and just thought much love.
Sometimes I had to excusemyself and go in the other room
and just thought, oh, my heart'sgoing to burst.
Like people are so good and wejust had friends come by and do
that.
They were socially distant,didn't get him sick, and it just
(12:16):
was so indicative of hisattitude and this was his way of
helping me too, like in ourmarriage, where I was like I
can't do this, I can barely liftyou up, and now I have to lift
you up several times a day anddo everything and I'm so tired
and I'm mourning and I'm mad andall the things.
(12:37):
It was just horrible and he waslike I know, but I'm still here
and also this is happening too,and I think about that a lot of
.
We find happiness, we find joyin relationships and in our
connections and there's lots ofways to connect with people.
And also we find it in thepresent right.
We find it by being present inour lives and not worrying about
(13:01):
the next thing.
I knew what was coming next.
He knew what was coming next,but we couldn't do anything
about that.
But we could do that, we couldmake some good memories for our
kids, we could make someconnections in an unusual way
and, yeah, that experience hasreally stuck with me.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
All these years later it has stuck with me too, irina
, and it's such a great way foryour friends and family to be
involved.
It was really very selfish ofhim, selfless of him.
I thought Very lovey, yeah, itreally is.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I love that.
Part of that speaks to a coupleof principles.
Even positive psychology talksabout learning to slow down and
savor the moment or the stage orthe relationship or whatever.
It is kind of soak it in alittle bit if you will, rather
than kind of letting that go by.
Lisa, many of our listeners areworking through the early years
(13:52):
of marriage and the relationshipand they can find it pretty
challenging.
In fact, a lot of the researchshows that the newlywed years,
you know after the kind ofhoneymoon effect, they can go
through a lot of challenges andthink challenges and think wait,
what's wrong with me?
You mentioned creativity aswell.
Are there ways that you twomanage the stresses and the
(14:16):
challenges that inevitably comeup?
Are there intentional practicesthat help strengthen your
connection during that time?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
as you think back to those early years of marriage,
yeah, I think in the early years, the thing that those earlier
years were I don't want to sayeasy, but they were not as
difficult because we were justtwo best friends that got to
(14:46):
hang out all the time.
And I look back at that and Ithink about over our 25-year
marriage and what I've learnedabout marriage and in those
early years we really set thefoundation for what would be my
favorite parts of our marriageand that is that it was a
(15:07):
friendship.
I think sometimes I hear peopletalk about their spouse in a
different way, that they talkabout their friends, and I love
the idea that your spouse isyour best friend and so you do
things for your spouse like youwould for a best friend.
(15:28):
You give them the benefit ofthe doubt.
You're invested in helping thembe happy.
You're invested in helpingtheir dreams to come true about
what makes them happy and howthey want to live, in a way that
isn't competition but is justlike fulfillment.
(15:52):
Like we always used to tease heused to hate it when I would
tease him about like that.
It was just really hard to bethe one that loves the most
right.
Like the one that loves themost right, like, like, like
that I just, and he'd be like,no, I do and don't say that and,
um, I kind of love that thatyou don't hold back, right, like
(16:13):
that.
I think a lot of people infriendship and in marriages hold
back because they don't want tobe seen as being, um, a fool,
right, like what if it's so hardto be vulnerable and it's so
hard to like be all in being afool?
Right, it's so hard to bevulnerable and it's so hard to
be all in in a marriage and in afriendship, because what if you
get hurt?
And what if they don't love youas much as you love them?
(16:37):
Or what if it becomesembarrassing?
And all of those what ifs thatwe fear that keep us from like
true intimacy.
And I just think when you're, ifyou've decided to marry
somebody and you're in it, be init like, be the one who loves
the most, who cares, don't keeptrack.
Be the one that's the biggestcheerleader, be the one that's
(16:57):
like, yeah, how do you want tolive?
Let's live like that, like andand.
When you have two people whoare like that for each other,
it's that's.
That's what that's the thing,that's what it is, and and I
love that christopher gave thatto me and I tried to give that
to him and, um, I think that'swhat we did, established in the
early years, I think one of thebenefits of me getting married
(17:22):
so young, because I know there'sa lot of criticism about it and
I get it and like that's fair,but I just didn't worry too much
about being the one that wastoo in it.
I just thought, no, just do it,give it your all, and some
people might look at me andthink, well, that didn't work
(17:42):
out very well for you, but butthey would be wrong.
You know, even everything thatI've lost and all of the
horrible, excruciating pain thatI've been through and continue
to go through and suffering.
It's totally worth it and Idon't have any Like regrets
(18:07):
about that, and I thinkChristopher's death especially
taught me about regret, becauseyou replay things in your mind a
lot about how you live, and Ithink there are a lot of people
who are living with a lot ofregret, especially my age,
surrounding their marriage rightand their marriages where it
went wrong, and so this is mylong way of answering your
question.
It went wrong, and so this ismy long way of answering your
question, but I hope I'manswering it kind of fully is
(18:28):
that if I could go back and doit again, I would do it the same
.
And in the early years of thosemarriages you are saying to the
other person you can trust me100%, I am all in and don't hold
back on that and be theirbiggest fan and their biggest
advocate and best friend and fun, and think about you are living
(18:49):
your life.
You're not just buildingsomething for later, although
you are, but you're living itnow.
You're doing it now, andhardships and good times and
everything are always coming andgoing, always, always.
But can you be that safe placefor someone else, can you be
that home for someone else?
And trying to create that,instead of trying to measure it
(19:11):
out and make sure that it's fairand make sure that everything
you know goes your way, isn'tthe way to do it.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Do you see, Lisa?
Some people were critical ofhow, what a big fan and
cheerleader you were.
They get that right.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Oh, I don't know, I didn't really much care for
other people, but I know, liketheir opinions.
But yeah, like there, there'salways this when you sacrifice
for another person, there'salways a like a little raised
eyebrow, right.
Like so, for example, like Iwant, we both wanted to have a
lot of kids.
I wanted to as well, and I andI wanted to.
(19:48):
Anyway, you make decisions inyour marriage, right, like which
career is going to go first andwho's and how, and all of those
things are based on a lot ofpersonal decisions, right, and
they certainly are for me, and Icould go back and tell you all
the personal decisions and whywe chose this and not that and
the other.
But the important thing is thatI made the decision on what I
(20:12):
wanted to sacrifice and why, andhe made the decision for what
he wanted and why, and we lookedat it as a marriage.
I wasn't just thinking about mypersonal goals and he wasn't
just thinking about his personalgoals either.
We were thinking about it oflike, how can we build and
create the kind of life that weboth want, that allows us to
(20:33):
both be creative, that wasreally important to us to use
our talents but also to have afamily life that was rich,
because, at the end of the day,christopher had a really intense
international career andnothing was more important to
(20:55):
him than me and the kids.
And I know that and maybe fromthe outside it didn't look like
that, but I know the truth of itand he didn't care about all it
.
We had his priorities andthey're aligned with my
priorities and and that gave usa lot of and it was just really
fun when other things likeworked out.
(21:16):
You know, it was just like well,we just I don't care if we live
under a bridge, as long aswe're like happy and it's just
like the two of us.
And then we've got these funkids that we really love, like
that's the thing and that focus.
And then everything else isgravy, as the kids say right,
like everything else is sort ofextra on top of that.
(21:36):
Like, oh, you have a careerthat you love or you get to do X
, y, z.
It's just like it just seemslike a fun and great surprise.
Z.
It's just like it just seemslike a fun and great surprise.
So I'm glad that you know ourmarriage is traditional in some
senses, but untraditional, youknow, I think in that sense.
And so there were some peoplethat were like why are you doing
(22:02):
that?
Or why are you moving toEngland with two little kids and
no job, and why are you gettingthis degree and why are you
getting another degree and whyare you doing this job on the
side?
That wasn't traditional, but,man, we had a good time doing it
.
That's just pretty cool, nomatter how busy it.
Yeah, we should do it, butthat's not for everybody, but
(22:23):
for us it was, and it felt likewe were in on something and I
think really good.
Strong marriages are like, okay, are we doing this thing
together?
Not just like you do your thing, you do your thing and then
we'll come together at the endof the day, but it's like, well,
what are we doing creatingtogether, like the whole thing,
not just the career, but likethe whole life, like how are we
(22:46):
creating this together?
To me, I feel like thosemarriages that I admired and the
one that I tried to create wasbased on that, on a shared
vision and excitement for eachother.
Well said, thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
We'll be right back after this brief message and
we're back, let's dive right in.
Actually, liz, I just want tokind of recap a little bit of
what you've said, because Lizoften says this as far as the,
(23:27):
what you focus on, you know,grows, you could focus on the
challenges in the early years,really at any time in your
relationship, but you had anoutward focus, if you will, and
it was focused on friendship andthe fun and being their biggest
fan.
I love those ideas of it's notabout me, it's about you and we
and us.
And marriage is an adventure.
(23:49):
Life is an adventure, yeah, andbeing your biggest fan, I love
that.
And the foundation it's nosurprise really that John
Gottman you probably heard ofhim, oh yeah.
He's a guru that says thefoundation?
After all these years he hasthis great quote.
He says the foundation isfriendship.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
People, they just like each other, they treat each
other.
You just, we started having aconversation when I was 19 years
old, right, and when he diedand I, um, you know, uh, the
thing that I immediately missedthe most was I have so much to
(24:26):
tell him.
I remember having a panicattack two days after he died
because I was like it's onlybeen two days and I have so much
to talk to him about, and now Ihave to live like this with
this feeling, and what a greatthing to miss, right?
You know everyone's like oh,don't you feel relieved because
(24:47):
he was in so much pain or likeit was a suffering.
And I just thought this is justa different feeling.
When you have an ongoingconversation with somebody for
most of your life, like to me,man, I think that is that's the
best marriage, right?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Oh yeah, and I'm curious, lisa, in what ways did
Christopher's diagnosis of ALSchange your marriage, if at all?
For example, we know from theresearch that health issues it
could be really hard onmarriages.
So I'm curious if you used itas a gift almost in a way, did
you intentionally make more timefor each other?
(25:25):
Did you treat each otherdifferently?
Not let little things bug youanymore, more kindness, more
gratitude, those types of things.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, I mean it totally changed our marriage.
When you get a terminaldiagnosis, everything changes
Like it is not business as usual, and I remember it shifted
right in the beginning where itwas like, okay, it's like go
time, for me, he willdeteriorate every day was the
(25:56):
reality of it, and so I need toget stronger every day.
I need to balance that.
We talk so much when we talkabout marriages and
relationships, of them beingequitable.
I just don't even know whatthat means anymore.
I think that's the wrong focus.
(26:18):
I saw some statistic too thatreally depressed me just
recently about when men getterminal diagnoses.
It was something like 2.1% ofthe spouses of the women leave,
or whatever.
And then it was like when awoman gets a terminal diagnosis,
(26:39):
it was like.
It was like a like oh yeah, itwas really high.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
It was like a 600 percent more like they're more
likely to leave than they wouldnot have.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
It was like, um, the most ridiculous statistic.
And I just like, couldn't likereally look at it, because I
just thought, here's myperspective when he got that
terminal disease.
And I looked at, I just, and Isaid this to a friend he had
been such a good husband andsuch a good friend to me that
(27:11):
there was no like, there was nohesitation of like, of what I
wouldn't do to make himcomfortable.
And I realized that you knoweveryone's like oh, you're such
a saint or whatever.
And I was like, no, it's notthat, I'm really not, it's.
We had had a pattern in ourmarriage.
(27:31):
He'd been such a good husbandthat I knew he would do that for
me.
I know he'd do anything for meand I know that he would have
taken care of me if the roleshad been reversed.
So I just it made me want totake care of him all that more.
And what was really kind of coolin a horrible situation is that
our love wasn't, it was totallyproved, it wasn't theoretical,
(27:54):
like everyone's like in sicknessand health.
No matter what happens, I'll bethere for you.
I'll you know.
And it's like, will you?
But will you when you have towipe know?
And it's like will you?
But will you?
When you have to wipe up thedrool off their face, will you
do?
You know what I mean whenthey're you know, when you know
it's going to end badly, likewhat will you do?
And now I, now I know what Iwould.
(28:16):
It will do and I did it and Iand he deserved it.
He deserved the best care and Idid my best and it was.
It was like frustrating andhumiliating and it was
everything, the most extremesituations, and we got to
experience that together and wegot to say I'm sorry and we got
(28:40):
to just be in it and I just Igot to make promises to him that
I wouldn't let him suffer andthat I would take good care of
him and that I would take goodcare of our kids.
And I kept my promise to him.
And there's just something likeI'm, I'm just so like that's my
(29:02):
greatest life work, right, andit's not theoretical, you know.
And the way that he treated me,the things that he said to me,
how he treated me when he knewhe was dying, I just again, it's
not theoretical anymore.
He did it and it's nottheoretical anymore.
He did it.
He was such a good, kind,generous, loving, human and
(29:26):
partner to the end.
And we have that and I knowit's possible.
And so it's so weird, havingbeen widowed and being single
for five years almost, to talkabout marriage, because I feel
like no one really asks me aboutwhat a good marriage is and I
(29:46):
just want to say I know what itis, I had it.
It's possible anybody twoweirdos can have a great
marriage.
It's like it's the greatest joy, it's the greatest thing, and
he gave that to me.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
When he was diagnosed , Lisa, I couldn't quite hear if
you said it's go time or notime for Lisa Go time.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
It was go time.
It was like my role in themarriage became so clear to me.
You know, like I said, saidearlier a lot of times, immature
relationships you're like, well, did they call back?
Well did he, you know, did.
Well, he did.
What did he do for my birthday?
Well then, this is what I'll do, and we just kind of keep
scoring stuff and like I'm justnot interested in that kind of
relationship.
(30:35):
Um, I just think it's soimmature.
But but like we had practicedand we've been each other's
friends, that and and hadsacrificed for each other, like
sacrificed big things for eachother, both of us had.
And then, when it came to andyou get a diagnosis, you will
live on average between two andfour years.
(30:55):
This is it.
And then, and it just changedeverything because I just
thought it's go time for me.
This is the time that I turn itup and go into overdrive to
help him more than I ever have,because he is dying.
The best person in the world isdying and I'm not having that
(31:18):
experience.
We're having two totallydifferent experiences and I'm
(31:47):
not having that experience.
We're having two totallydifferent experiences and that's
hard in a marriage and that washard because he was preparing
to die and to leave and I waspreparing to help him do that
and then to be able to continueour family on by myself, which I
didn't know if I could do, andso I was going through a morning
process, he's going through amorning process and we're trying
to help each other and we're ontwo totally different paths.
Because of the nature of that,and that is a hard, hard thing.
That is probably one of thehardest things that I've ever
had to do, because your personis going through something
different and you're so used tobeing totally aligned but they
can't.
It's so cruel for me to be like,well, help me know how to live
(32:10):
without you.
Like, okay, you know.
It's just like him saying tohelp me know how to die, okay,
I'll try.
And so we just were very I justthinking this isn't about you
at all and that's okay.
This is just how it is and hedeserves that.
(32:31):
So just give it to him andworry about the rest later.
You know what I mean, yep.
Well, I can't even imagineactually, but I hear you world,
Because sometimes we would, youknow, be able to help each other
, like I'm having a really hardday and thinking about this and
we would still be there for eachother.
But there are some momentswhere you're just like, oh, I'm
not going to put this on him atthis moment, because it's
(32:52):
happening to him so.
So it did change our marriagein that sense, and in that way
it's so hard because nobody Ihad known had ever gone through
that, and so I felt really alone.
I can imagine you were alone.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
But you know, I've kind of forgotten hearing that a
lot of that onus responsibilityof caregiving fell on your
shoulders regarding the time ofCOVID, a huge, huge burden for
caring for him, for yourchildren, and so I was wondering
, if you know it was go time andactually no time for Lisa as
(33:31):
well?
How did you take?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
care of yourself.
I didn't, I didn't, and it'sokay because I mean, I did the
best I could under extraordinarycircumstances.
Um, then then came years laterand then came, you know, health
problems and things like thatbecause of the consequences of
(33:53):
that, which are fine, like okay,great.
But um, you know, life is long,long and for some of us and
that was an extraordinary time,and I did receive strength
beyond my own I still don't knowhow all of that happened, but I
(34:14):
give that to God.
It was me and God, and I waslike, well, I have no solutions
to offer and I'm going to need alot more help, and I don't even
know what to ask for, becausethis is the most ridiculous
situation.
And, um, and so my faith, uh,really, really kicked.
In.
Um, I mean, it was always there, but it was just like, okay, it
was like walking off a cliffand trusting that somebody was
(34:35):
going to catch you and uh, so sothat was the, the next part of
that, for sure it's the ultimatetrust, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (34:44):
oh yeah, again, not theoretical anymore right during
that time, how did you helpyour five children stay involved
and connected with each otherthrough their dad's illness and
they?
They took turns helping youcare for him.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Like you said it, was really tricky because they were
all at different levelsdevelopmentally and so different
ages, and it was a familyaffair to take care of dad and
he would tease them and writehim little messages on his
screen so they communicated andhe would share different things
with them share, you know, he'sreally into film and one of my
(35:18):
kids is really into film and sothey would watch all these old
films together.
Other kids, like my oldest,really became the second
caregiver and would take theshift from 10 pm to 10 am and I
would take 10 am to 10 pm and wejust kind of helped each other
that way and so that was verytender and the other children
(35:41):
would come and help him.
It was really hard because withdifferent developmental things
happening and also during COVID,a lot of them were very
depressed and anxious and wetried to create regular days.
We tried to create oh, we getup and have breakfast and do our
schoolwork and laugh and dosomething fun and then do this
(36:04):
and then talk together and tryto keep it like those ordinary
days.
Those ordinary days of familylife are where it's at right.
That's better than a trip toDisneyland, that's better than a
deathbed confessional.
It really just is.
There's nothing like theordinary day of just being with
(36:26):
your family.
It's the most precious thing inthe whole world.
And so that COVID time gavetime.
My kids most of them wereteenagers at the time and I
think had they not been forcedto, would have, like most
teenagers, been with theirfriends a lot, been outside and,
because it was pretty intense,your dad's dying of a terminal
(36:50):
disease Like who wouldn't wantto escape that and
developmentally they're notthinking about how that's going
to affect them, but because oflater down the line, but because
it was COVID, they had to, andnow they have no regrets that
they didn't spend enough timewith their dad, and so I like to
(37:13):
remind them of that.
You spent a lot of time withyour dad.
He knew how much you loved himand we talk about the funny
things that he did and said, wetalk about the meaningful things
, but they have good memoriesand he gave them that.
He could have made it sotraumatic and crying every day,
and he left them with some funmemories, with some good
(37:36):
memories, with some clear advice.
Such a gift, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Really.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Yeah, I mean, not everybody gets that, so they get
that?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
No, yeah, wow, lisa, I'm guessing that taking care of
Christopher for these severalyears wasn't just a one-sided
effort, if you will, you talkeda little bit about that, but I
love this theme of turningoutward.
And in what ways didchristopher, you know, while he
could turn outward and and focuson you, you know he saw the
sacrifice, maybe you wearingdown, you getting tired.
I can only imagine, from thecharacter that you've described
him, that he's like I'm gonna dowhatever I can for.
(38:15):
Oh, he totally did, yes oh, somany things.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
You know he would make me laugh.
He would write me messages,text me funny things that he was
thinking about.
He always had something to like, for us to like look forward to
, would need later.
(38:46):
Like when he told me about what, uh he wanted, uh, my life to
be like when he left, I just I,it was the worst conversations
and he'd say, I know, but I wantyou to hear this, and he would
tell me, um, great thanks andand um, that was very generous.
He uh talked to my friends andthat was very generous.
He talked to my friends andgave them advice on how to take
care of me when he was gone.
(39:06):
He did the same thing with ourchildren.
He made sure that everythingwas in order.
Soon after his diagnosis, wewent and got everything in a
trust so that when it was likeend of life care and those
decisions he wanted to make,those when he was coherent what
a gift.
He wrote his own funeral.
(39:28):
What a gift.
He said this.
He wrote his own life story,what he wanted to be remembered
for.
What a gift.
All of those things that causeso much like stress and grief
and heaviness he was able to say, and I think the biggest thing
is he gave me those ordinarydays like I was talking about.
We still are going to go out ondate night, we're still going
(39:54):
to have those intimate momentsand he wanted to be able to be
just adapt as much as possibleso that I was happy.
He planned an elaborate 25thwedding anniversary surprise two
days before he died.
He couldn't move or speak.
He called in favors.
(40:14):
He called our friend in tocater a meal and I'm like you
can't even eat.
He's like I'll just watch youeat.
And he called ourbrother-in-law that and had him
make me a silver brace becauseit's the 25th anniversary of
silver, a silver bracelet.
He had one of our friends comeand sing, hey, who was on
(40:36):
American Idol.
I was like Ryan and he was sogreat.
He had another one of ourfriends you know our theater
friends come and decorate thebackyard and this elaborate so
it looked like an Italianrestaurant.
Of course, all of this duringCOVID, so that we were all
socially distant, just sobbing,separated from each other, just
(41:03):
being like what is happening,and he was in a lot of pain at
that time.
But he wanted to give me a biganniversary present.
He wanted to tell me how muchhe loved me.
And who does that while they'redying?
Chris Clark does that.
And I just was like, oh, you'remaking this hard for me that.
(41:26):
And I just was like, oh, you're, you're making this hard for me
.
But so to say, that's just oneexample of a lot of of like,
really like tender, sweet thingsthat he continually did for me.
He would say you're doing sucha good job of keeping me alive,
like I know I've lived yearsextra than I would have if I
didn't get such good care andyou take such I don't worry
about our kids at all becauseyou're going to take care Like.
(41:47):
He just had such a confidencein me that I just didn't have.
And that was really sweet.
He just was my biggestcheerleader and thought I could
do anything, even when I waslike I, I can't, I'm really
grumpy and I'm kind of ahorrible person.
And he'd be like, no, you'renot.
You know, when someone sees thebest in you, is that the best
(42:11):
marriage right?
Like sees the best version ofyou to give you the benefit of
the doubt.
It makes you want to be thatperson.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
You know it just does so she was your biggest
cheerleader fan, yeah, up to hisdying day, literally in his
last, his last, oh yeah, oh, Ihad not heard of your 25th
wedding anniversary that sounds.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
That's very special wow yeah, portable.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
It was amazing, yeah, and then he went into a coma
and passed like a movie yeah,like yeah, yeah, and I was like
okay, chris, I will be happy foryou then you said earlier in
(42:57):
our interview about how wereally are responsible for our
thoughts and our, our actionsand we we have control over how
we respond, and you use that, um, literally individually as well
as collectively in in marriage.
Tell us more about about thatyou really took ownership of how
you showed up every day.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
It sounds like lisa well, uh, you know, that's life,
right?
I, when chris got his diagnosis, we were both in the middle of
like a very busy time for us, um, and I remember he had to go
speak at a conference for hiswork and I had a job I had an
acting job that I was gonna goto california, and I remember we
(43:41):
got this diagnosis and it wasit takes kind of a long time to
get diagnosed and in that timewe're just an absolute mess and
there was a little bit of arelief in, okay, this is what it
is, this is what we're facing,right.
But also like, okay, this isliterally the worst case
scenario, like we can't fightthis, like we can't get chemo or
(44:03):
treatments, or like we can't doanything.
And so I I was like and, chris,we were dealing with it and
trying to figure out how we tellour kids and our friends and
family.
And and then I was like, wellthen, obviously you're not going
to your conference and I'm notgoing to go to california, and
obviously we're not gonna, youknow.
And he was like not going to goto California, and obviously
we're not going to, you know.
(44:23):
And he was like what are youtalking about?
And I was like, well, he's likewell, what should we do, like
stop living life?
And I was like, yeah, kind of I, I was like I don't want to
leave the house, I want to getin bed.
That seems like I don't thinkI'm wrong here.
That's actually seems like theappropriate response.
And I remember he looked at meand he said well, you can do
(44:47):
whatever you want, obviously,but I'm not going to live like
that.
I'm going to like we had somefriends that were getting
married and he was like I'mgoing to the wedding and then
the next day I'm going to workand I'm going to go to this
conference and I'm going to livemy life.
We've got, because that is theonly way that I can do this,
lisa, he's like I, I, I'm goingto live my life and live it to
(45:10):
the fullest, now that I knowthat there's a there's a clock
on it and you can do whateveryou want.
But that's not going to makeyou happy, just so you know.
And it was kind of a little bitof this tough love of like, not
like oh, honey, it's going tobe okay.
It was like I don't know ifyou're kidding, and I actually
don't think you're kidding, butI'm not going to, I I'm not
(45:30):
doing that.
And I was like, okay, I guessI'll go act and be funny like
and and.
But I like that because itreally put into focus of I can,
I could do whatever I wanted todo.
I could have gotten back in bed, and there have been days that
I've done that, of course, andjust felt sorry for myself.
(45:51):
It's not how I want to live.
It actually doesn't make youfeel any better and it doesn't
do any good.
I've learned doesn't do anygood.
Um, I've learned.
Um.
But what he did, which was, well, I'm going to keep directing
and and and creating art andbeing with my friends and being
in a good dad and husband and,um, I'm going to do those things
(46:15):
and I'm just going to adapt ituntil I die.
And that's exactly what he did,because when he died, he was he
.
When he died, he had stoppeddoing some things that he could,
but he was still creating, hewas still writing plays, he was
still on Zoom and pre-productionfor a couple of things.
He was our kid's self-appointedseminary and theater teacher
(46:35):
during COVID and he was typingout blessings for our kids and
he was typing out his life storyand getting his pictures like
he was still creating and doingevery single day of his life.
He never stopped.
You know, when he couldn't playthe piano anymore he was like,
okay, well, then I'll just keepdirecting.
And when he couldn't speakanymore he stopped directing and
teaching and then he just wasproducing and he just kept going
(46:59):
and he really lived that.
And it's been a good example tome, because after he died and
the lights went out and life wasjust stupid, I thought I can
stop and disappear or I can keepcreating and doing like Chris
did, and then maybe that willcreate something new.
(47:23):
And it did.
It created some hope.
And so when I say that we getto choose how we live our lives
and I think about Chris andwithin a marriage, it's
absolutely like you areresponsible for your own
happiness.
If you are looking for theother person to make you happy
(47:44):
or to give you meaning, that'stoo heavy to put that on a
burden on someone and it's justnot how we live life.
At the end of the day, we areborn alone, we die alone.
Even if we're surrounded withour loved ones or whatever, is
it a solitary thing and you'restill alone.
(48:04):
And what a gift.
It is to be in a marriage,though, with someone that says I
am responsible for my ownhappiness and I'm actively
choosing to be happy as much asI can and be in it with you, no
matter what you choose, what agift.
(48:26):
But we don't talk about marriage.
I think a lot in those terms,do we?
No, we, talk about it in termsof being equal and what you can
give and holding and withholding.
And you need to make me happyand you need to do these lists.
And I'm looking for this kindof person that checks off these
and it's just like what is thatlist?
Listen, I'm looking for thiskind of person that checks off
these and it's just like what isthat list?
(48:46):
Who do you want to be and whodo you want to have?
Come along for the ride.
It is a little bit moreinviting and it's creating
something together that youdon't know the future of, but
you're creating it together,you're not dictating it.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah, we'll be right back after this brief message,
and we're back, let's dive rightin.
I love that.
Emily bell freeman has actuallydescribed your love.
(49:20):
Uh, at least for each other.
Is this brave love right?
This kind that isn't afraid to,to risk to, to give, to
sacrifice?
It's not focused on the tit fortat, the equal, no, and I love
that about you, has it alwayskind of just been that way?
Is the outward focus this bravelove?
We're all in on this journey.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
I think we learned it together right, like a lot of
things in a marriage.
We stumbled into it and I justremember early, especially early
on in his diagnosis, a friendasked me point blank if you knew
, if you knew that he was gonnathis was gonna happen to you and
(50:02):
to your family and to him,would you go back and you I
won't tell anyone, I won't tellhim, I will not tell a soul
would you go back and marry himagain?
And I said yeah, like no, doubt100%.
And she's like okay, there youhave it Now you know, and you
don't ever have to doubt.
And I thought what a gift itwas that she asked me that, like
(50:25):
right, when everything was rawand I was trying to figure out
what was going to go on, becausewe all know that something
happens to when you are acaregiver to somebody.
You love them, you love who youserve.
Right when you are a caregiver,like a mother to a child who
literally cannot survive withoutyou, and then you turn that and
(50:51):
I knew that that's what I wasfacing with Chris.
Chris is that I would be givingeverything that I have to keep
him alive and for his comfort.
I knew I would fall deeper inlove with him, and I knew that
that would hurt me even morebecause I loved him so much.
And the thought of losing him, Icouldn't even think about it.
I couldn't even think about thefuture.
It was like so dark.
Losing him, I couldn't eventhink about it.
(51:11):
I couldn't even think about thefuture.
It was like, so dark and I waslike, if I care for him a
hundred percent, like as much asI can and more, it's going to
hurt me later.
And I still did it, and he stilldid it, and he did that for me.
And it was like, and I rememberthinking I've got to make the
choice Am I going to keep adistance, you know, so that it
doesn't hurt so much, and sothat I care for him?
(51:32):
But it's like, or am I justgonna just let myself just go
deeper?
And I just was like I don'twant any regrets.
I don't know what will happen,what emily meant, but that's
what I took it as is.
We looked at each other like,okay, you're it, let's do it,
(51:54):
and we did just give everythingto each other.
It wasn't one-sided at all, but, um, it was life-altering and
um, I don't regret it, but, um,it has a cost yeah and, and I'll
just say that yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (52:14):
Well, no doubt all of us will face something in life,
right, it's serious,life-altering health or some
other challenge.
We're going to be going throughit.
What advice do you have,especially for those couples
maybe, who right now are facingserious health challenges Lisa,
or maybe someone who's losttheir sweetheart?
Speaker 2 (52:37):
I think the advice would be different.
If somebody is going throughsomething with that's life
threatening with their partner,I would I would say just go all
in, just take care of them.
Just go all in, just take careof them, don't worry about the
(52:58):
consequences of that.
Uh, that kind of servicecreates a deep love that is hard
to describe and, um, it'sworthy of, like a life focus.
It has value.
It is worthy.
Um, we don't value it as asociety at all, but that doesn't
matter.
It's still absolutely worth it.
(53:18):
Don't worry about what comesnext For those who have lost
someone.
I think my advice is the advicethat Christopher gave me before
he died, that I didn't want tohear that.
Now I hear loud and clear thatyou don't honor the love that
(53:40):
you had with someone, therelationship that you had, by
ceasing to exist, by giving up,by swearing off love and life
and good memories and personaldevelopment.
You don't honor love and thatrelationship that way.
You honor it by going out andloving and creating and living
(54:05):
and being present in your life.
And it's not a betrayal.
You never forget.
It has already changed you.
You can, can't.
The memories are you.
You are a result of thatrelationship, you will be more
equipped to love people in thefuture.
Because of that.
That's the whole point.
So I would just say just don'tgive up um the idea of living
(54:30):
and and loving because, uh,you've done it so intensely.
You honor that by continuing todo it Beautiful advice.
Speaker 1 (54:41):
Lisa, you've talked in the past about finding joy in
life, you know, and thatinvolves hope, it involves being
present in the moment we talkedabout earlier.
It involves gratitude.
Tell us your thoughts aboutfinding and kind of just soaking
in joy.
Right, this life is about joyand happiness and, yes, there
will be challenges.
How have you been able toalmost like slow down and say,
(55:04):
hey, let me just appreciateright now?
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Yeah, I think I mean implicit in your question is
this idea of recognizing whereit is now.
I think a lot of times we havethis expectation of what it will
look like for us, so that wemiss what it actually is when it
shows up.
And I think the first thing isto recognize that you're worthy
of it, that no one is excludedfrom the idea of joy.
(55:29):
I think we try to excludeourselves or other people from
who gets to have joy and underwhat circumstances.
I mean, during a globalpandemic, when everything's shut
down and your husband is dyingof a terminal disease and you
have five teenagers at home whoare super mad and depressed,
should you have joy?
No, you shouldn't.
But guess what we did?
You know what I mean, and if Ihad clung to this idea of what
(55:53):
it should look like instead ofjust recognizing what it
actually is in the moment, whichwas totally different than I
thought it was going to be Iwould have missed it.
(56:32):
Joy is our birthright.
I just believe that it is ourbirthright that men are, that
they might receive joy.
I think everything that hasbeen given to us by our Heavenly
Father is for this ultimate joy, which doesn't mean and what is
actually happening and you feelthe depths of sorrow and the
injustice of life.
And I think it gives you asuperpower to be able to see the
light and to see joy andrecognize it, because you're
more desperate for it, and tofeel it more deeply and to
appreciate it.
(56:52):
And so I think if people arenot feeling that kind of joy
that they want to, is just tomaybe like recognize.
Do you think that this is partof your birthright?
Is this why you're here or not?
And then being able to say,well, where might you see it
that you might not have haverecognized it before, does it
make it any less true?
you know, yeah, and I think youonly recognize that by being in
(57:16):
the present right, like being inyour life, being in your body,
experiencing what is actuallyhappening, instead of being
haunted by the past or fearfulof the future that you have to
be present, and that is a mentalgame yeah, it really is,
because our brain wants to go tothe past with anger, regret and
(57:36):
or the future was stressingwell, and honestly, too, if
you've been through trauma,intrusive thoughts too, right,
like that's a real thing, andand and taking care of your body
means taking care of your mindand your mental health and and
um, I have some experience withthat of like, trying to, like,
you know, having horrible dreamsand intrusive thoughts and
panic attacks and things likethat, and being able to take the
(57:57):
time to heal.
That.
To recognize this doesn't meanthat it excludes me from joy and
it doesn't mean that thosethings are true, but it does
mean that I need to get healthyright like so yeah, but
realizing that it's possible andthat it's going to look a
little bit differently is, Ithink, the way that that door
sort of opens.
It did for me when I had no hopefor like a happy future or
(58:20):
anything.
I was just like, well, it'sover, I don't even care
individual thing for everybody.
But by being present andrecognizing all of the things
that I didn't know andacknowledging that was a start
to that and realizing, no, thisis actually is this is actually
important to God, this isactually an important idea to to
(58:43):
me, for my children.
So this is something that Ineed to give the time to really
think about.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Wow, Lisa, before we let you go, you've been so
generous with your time and allkinds of insights and tips and
things for us to think about.
We'd like to ask all of ourguests a couple questions.
The first one is what do youfeel like is the key to a
stronger marriage connection?
Speaker 2 (59:06):
I think the key to a stronger marriage connection is
a loyalty to friendship for eachother.
I do Loyalty.
Speaker 3 (59:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
A loyalty in friendship, I think, is the
easiest way I can say it.
Speaker 1 (59:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great.
Second question is we call it atakeaway of the day.
Do you have a takeaway of theday for us, a parting counsel,
something you want our listenersto remember from our discussion
today of the day for us, aparting counsel, something you
want our listeners to rememberfrom our discussion?
Speaker 2 (59:31):
today.
Yeah, I think my takeaway todayis that and this may sound
really cheesy- but I don't care,I can't wait.
That's delicious.
Love is a gift, right, and youcan categorize it however you
(59:54):
want Charity, pure love,romantic love, friendship love,
whatever.
I do think that there is thatlove.
Anytime you decide to give thatto someone, it is such a gift
and by seeing it that way andnot just assuming that it should
(01:00:15):
be there, not just assumingthat it's just how we live, but
like seeing it as somethingspecial, helps us to not take it
for granted and helps us togive it to people more
intentionally, in a way thatthey can feel it, not just the
way that we want to give it tothem.
I think that improves all ofour relationships and I think
having strong relationships likewith friends, with your family,
(01:00:38):
with your children, actuallyhelps your marriage become
stronger, because you're justpracticing love in a different
form and that one person thatyou've chosen to really focus
most of your love on benefitsfrom that.
So seeing love like that andlike it's a gift, that it's not
(01:00:59):
a wasted thing when you do that,but that it's an actual,
intentional thing, I think couldchange a lot of people's lives.
Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
That's beautiful.
Yeah, thank you, Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway of the day?
You?
Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
know Dave and Lisa.
Before our interview I wouldhave said if people had asked,
why are you kind of all in onyour marriage?
I would have said, oh yeah, ofcourse I am.
And now I'm thinking, gosh, Ithink I've got some area of
improvement.
Obviously I don't know if Ineed to get a big B on my
t-shirt for Ben or what I needto do about Lisa.
You're making me think abouthow that could look even better
(01:01:36):
to be all in marriage, to beloyal to that friendship.
I'm really grateful for yourbeautiful words of wisdom today,
dave.
What about you?
What's your richest nugget?
You hope that all of usremember from our time together
with Lisa Valentine Clark.
Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Yeah, super powerful.
Lisa.
I think your story talkingabout Chris, when he turned
outward, he would focus on you.
I don't know.
For some reason this reallytouched me because I feel like
when we are suffering, whenwe're going through it, when
we're stressed, when we're mad,whatever it is that we're going
through, to have an outwardmindset, to turn outward is
(01:02:13):
really hard, because when we'refeeling that, the natural
response is to turn inward andwhen I'm inward I can't even see
you or see what you need me.
But I am just moved byChristopher's when he's going
through it.
He's dying and yet he's likekids and you and I'm going to
take care of that.
That 25th anniversary, itleaves me speechless honestly, I
(01:02:36):
know.
For him to think ahead and toplan.
Just that outward mindset ofhim planning and thinking, it's
powerful.
If we could all live like Chrisholy smoke when we're going
through it, that is the ultimate.
It feels like this charity,this that love, it's mind
boggling to me.
Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
You're right.
Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
You're right, powerful.
Thank you, lisa.
Lisa, where can our listenersgo to find out more about you?
You've got podcast resources,please share.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Thanks.
I host the Lisa show, where wetalk about, like living a good
life.
It's like going to lunch with afriend Right and and and
sharing this kind of stuff aboutrelationships, but also you
know parenting and and ADHD andyou know estate planning.
I mean, I mean a milliondifferent things.
I'm looking at Like we, we talkabout sleep hygiene and family
(01:03:26):
culture and you know all thisstuff that goes into living life
.
So the Lisa show wherever youfind your podcasts.
And I also host another showcalled Council of Moms, where we
get a bunch of moms togetherand we're like, okay, what are
we doing about this to help youfeel like you're not alone in
all of it when you the mostimportant job that you're doing.
(01:03:48):
So that's really fun too, andyou can find that wherever you
get your podcasts as well.
And we'll be sure to put linksto those for our listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
We're going to put links in our show notes for
Talisa, her podcast, the greatwork that she's doing, and, of
course, I've seen her many timeswith John, by the way, hank
Smith, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
We have such a good time together.
Yeah, it's such a good time.
You, you guys look like you.
Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Yeah, it's such a good time.
You're laughing as much as weare in the audience.
It's so fun to see you guysperform.
Thanks, such a fun time.
Well, lisa, thanks so much formaking time, for opening up, for
sharing with us and ourlisteners.
Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
Thank you, thanks for having me, thanks for letting
me talk about Christopher andmarriage.
Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
Thank you what a blessing.
Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
Thank you for sharing your heart and your love.
Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Yes, yeah, we appreciate you and our friends.
We will see you next time onanother episode of stronger
marriage connection.
Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
And remember it's a small things that create a
stronger marriage connection.
Take good care.
Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(01:05:07):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(01:05:28):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(01:05:52):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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