May 12, 2025 • 43 mins
Struggling to understand what makes a relationship flourish over time? In this eye-opening episode with Dutch-American psychologist Julie Sharon, we uncover the science-backed secrets that separate thriving marriages from those that falter.
When couples find themselves locked in the same frustrating conflict patterns, the answer might be surprisingly physiological. Julie reveals how a racing heart (over 100 BPM) signals we've entered "fight or flight" mode—a state where productive communication becomes nearly impossible. Learn why taking a structured 20-30 minute break can transform heated arguments into constructive conversations, and why agreeing to return to difficult topics builds crucial trust.
The episode dives deep into the Gottmans' groundbreaking research on "bids for connection"—those small moments when we reach toward our partner for acknowledgment or engagement. Julie explains why couples who respond positively to these bids 86% of the time stay happily married, while those responding only 33% of the time face relationship breakdown. These seemingly minor interactions create what she calls an "emotional bank account" that buffers relationships during inevitable conflicts.
Beyond the research, Julie shares practical tools you can implement today: the stress-reducing conversation (listening without solving), effective repair attempts after conflicts, and creating a culture of appreciation and kindness. She emphasizes that healthy relationships aren't conflict-free—they simply maintain a 5:1 ratio of positive to negative interactions during disagreements.
Ready to transform your relationship? Start by looking inward at your own contributions rather than focusing on your partner's shortcomings. As Julie reminds us: "Slow down, take a look inside. Don't respond too quickly. Think before you act, think before you speak, feel before you speak."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
On today's episode, dr Liz and I welcome Julie
Sharon to the show and wediscuss practical tips and tools
based on the research by Johnand Julie Gottman.
From the importance ofregulating emotions to
responding to bids forconnection and making repair
attempts, you'll hear aboutseveral ways you can improve
your marriage based on decadesof research.
You can improve your marriagebased on decades of research.
(00:27):
Julie Sharon Wagshall is a DutchAmerican psychologist,
relationship educator andfounder of the Center for
Relationship Learning.
She offers therapy andworkshops for couples and
training and consultation forprofessionals by using the
Gottman Method for CouplesTherapy.
Julie has an MA in CounselingPsychology and a BA in
Psychology.
Primarily working within thelocal international community,
julie has counseled clients fromover 50 countries At her
(00:50):
private practice.
She helps distressed anddisconnected couples to
rediscover and reignitefriendship and intimacy and
improve their communicationskills, often in long marathon
sessions.
Often in long marathon sessions.
Ultimately, julie's mission isto support couples to become
closer and kinder with eachother so they can create safe
and loving homes for themselvesand their families.
(01:12):
We hope you enjoy the show.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection.
I'm psychologist, dr Liz Hale,along with the beloved professor
Dr Dave Schramm, and togetherwe are dedicating our life's
work to bringing you the best wehave in valid marital research,
along with a few tips and toolsto help you create the marriage
of your dreams.
Well, science says lastingrelationships come down to two
(01:44):
things, and any guess on thesetwo particular terms, dave.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Oh man, I mean friendship is what the Gottmans
talk about, but there's allkinds of things.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yep, and you know what?
I remember interviewing JohnGottman.
I was talking to him about themasters versus the disasters
that he found in his researchand I said who are these masters
?
Did they have perfectchildhoods?
What was it about them?
He goes, you know, we can'treally find a rule, a reason,
but it does come down tokindness, isn't that beautiful
(02:13):
Kindness?
And then in some other research, generosity was the other term.
But today we are thrilled tohave Julie Sharon, a
Dutch-American psychologist,joining us today.
To have Julie Sharon, aDutch-American psychologist,
joining us today.
In her work with clientsspanning over 50 countries, she
has followed the science of loveand well, her focus is to help
distressed and disconnectedcouples rediscover and reignite
(02:37):
friendships and intimacy.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection, julie Sharon.
Thank you so much.
You clearly love what you doand we love that about you.
Can.
Can you start by?
Can we start by asking you isthere a hope for love today?
You know, I think even forthose couples who might be
struggling on the daily, whereare we?
(02:58):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
I definitely think there's hope, otherwise I
wouldn't be doing this work, andI guess the two of you agree
right.
So we're all hopeful, butpeople can struggle.
It's not always easy, but thereare so many tools out there and
ways to make things better andeveryone I mean most people
would love to have a goodrelationship, so we do see a lot
(03:21):
of people really working hardto get that good relationship.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
We do know more than ever before people really
working hard to get that goodrelationship.
We do know more than everbefore, don't we, about what
makes a marriage thrive.
It's a good time to be married.
I'm often telling my clients.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
That's a good point.
Yeah, there's more and moreresearch, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, let's dive into that a little bit, julie, as
you know right about theGottmans and their know at the
mid-1980s University ofWashington kind of setting the
stage for our listeners Coupleswere observed, at least in some
of these studies, as they spokeabout the highs and the lows of
their relationships.
All the while there's theseelectrodes, you know, plastered
(03:59):
on their bodies that aremeasuring, you know, blood flow
and heart rate and sweat, allkinds of things that they're
measuring.
And the couples were then senthome and interviewed upwards of
six years later.
And the bottom line even thougha couple might look calm on the
outside, it doesn't mean thatthey're calm on the inside, and
(04:20):
that's what seems to count in alot of their research.
So during your sessions withcouples, how do you instruct
them, I guess, on this greatinsight and, more importantly,
how do you help them with theirphysiology so it doesn't wreck
their relationship?
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Well, first of all, I don't assume that I can see on
the outside how they are feelingon the inside, and I don't
assume that they know how theyare feeling on the inside and I
don't assume that they know howthey are feeling on the inside.
So we tend to think that weknow when our heart rate is up
high, right, but that's not thecase.
So what the research shows isthat we're not very well aware
(04:59):
of how fast our heart is beatingwhen we're in fight or flight.
And so what the research showsthat Gottman and his colleagues
were doing is that when couplesare interacting and their heart
rate is high, and sometimes evenabove 100, even though they're
just sitting there next to eachother having a conversation, it
(05:22):
does indicate that they're infight or flight and that their
relationship is in trouble.
And so we do have to measurethat by using pulse oximeter.
So in sessions I actually use apulse oximeter.
So I have my couples put.
They pop on a pulse oximeter ontheir finger and we see where
(05:44):
is their heart rate.
Is it up high?
And if so, let's take a breakand first calm down, because if
we have them continue theirconversations when they're in
fight or flight, thoseconversations don't go very well
.
But if we have them calm down,if they learn to soothe
themselves, they are able tohave much better conversations.
(06:06):
It's amazing.
That's what the research shows.
So they had couples sit in thelab having a conflict
conversation and when one of thecouples maybe one or both
partners their heart rate wouldgo above 100, they would come in
, stop the interaction, givethem a magazine to read and
watch their heart rate go down,down, down, down down and once
(06:29):
they were back to their baserate, they would instruct them
to continue the conversation and, as John Gottman says, it was
like they had like a braintransplant, like they were two
different people having thatsame conversation, while the
couples, you know the thecontrol group.
They were not interrupted, sothey kept going as they were.
(06:50):
You know, their heart rate wasup high and they were having
conflicts and they really hadbad outcomes in terms of that,
those conversations so I'mcurious, jump in here and and
ask them a more like a practicalquestion.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I don't have these little, you know, these little
things on my fingers at home.
So, practically speaking, afterthey leave, are there ways the
couples can kind of get a senseof OK, we need to take a break
here because things arederailing.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Yes, first of all, having the knowledge that this
happens changes things forpeople.
When they learn about thisresearch, they start to notice
it in their own lives and theystart to notice yes, sometimes
we do get into these fights andI keep repeating myself, doesn't
go anywhere.
And then when we you know, whensomeone leaves the room, you
(07:43):
know we're really stressed andwe can't stop thinking about it.
You know they're ruminating on,you know what's happening in
the fight and what they'retalking about.
So they do start to recognizethat this happens and so they
can bring it into their lives bynoticing it in those moments.
And we practice how to take aneffective break and an effective
(08:07):
break.
What we know is it takes about20 to 30 minutes to calm down,
but only if you're really doingsomething that can calm you down
.
So if you keep ruminating,you're not going to, you know,
calm down.
So you really got to distractyourself so that your body can
(08:29):
come back to its balanced state.
And then, after about 20 to 30minutes, you contact your
partner.
You agree on a time when totalk about it.
It doesn't have to be at thatmoment, because it might not be
a good time or you both mightnot be calm, but it's good to do
it within 24 hours, becauseoften this is actually really
important.
(08:49):
There's one person who wants toleave the conversation.
They're like, hey, I'm flooded,I need a break.
So they're in flight mode, buttheir partner is then often in
fight mode and they want to keepgoing and they feel really
abandoned.
When their partner wants totake a break and they're worried
(09:09):
you know there's a lot ofthings to say and they want to
finish their thoughts and theirsentences and they're not able
to and it's really frustrating.
They may feel abandoned or liketheir partner is never going to
come back to the conversation.
So you really need to make anagreement about coming back.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Okay, that's great.
Okay, so they can learn thisOnce they become aware of it,
then they can, okay, catchthemselves.
Hey, let's talk about this andwe're in this unhealthy patterns
and we need to kind of halt,take a break right before we go
off the ledge.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, and it's good.
You know, when couples talkabout this, they're actually
communicating about how theyfight and they can make
agreements about how they can dothings better.
Now, if people want to work onhow they have conflict, they
really can make changes if theyboth commit to doing that.
And I think really importantthat they look at themselves,
(10:06):
that they're not just waitingfor their partners to change,
but they commit to changingthemselves.
Take ownership of this process.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
You know, tina Turner used to ask what's love got to
do with that, right friends?
And now we're asking adifferent question what does
physiology have to do with that?
And it turns out a lot.
You know, I got to be honest,julie and Dave.
I have had a love-haterelationship with those pulse
oximeters.
But, julie, you've given me arenewed faith to get them back
out again.
You use them in a session, itsounds like.
(10:38):
And how do you do that insession?
Do you just hit pause on 20minutes?
Send somebody out?
How do you use?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
them in the session.
Well, if one or both partners,if their heart rate is really
above 100, then we just take abreak.
I ask them hey, you take offyour pulse oximeter, get
(11:08):
yourself in a comfortableposition, close your you know,
close your eyes.
We'll do a relaxation exercise.
You know, total body relaxation, whatever type of meditation,
breathing exercise that worksfor them.
Sometimes people want to gotake a walk, you know, and it
tends not to happen that oftenin the session.
Once it's happened, once theystart to get the feeling, oh
wait, it's happening, let meslow down.
(11:29):
So they start to, instead of itescalating like that, they
start to repair the interactionsbefore the escalation, and
that's really what we want.
So, you know, it can happenthat people really get flooded
we call it getting flooded whentheir heart rate goes over 100.
But ultimately we're trying toget them to repair the negative
(11:58):
cycle before it escalates.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
The negative cycle.
It's beautiful.
I love that I'm going to get mypulse oximeters back out.
You heard me say it right here.
The negative cycle.
It's beautiful.
I love that I'm going to get mypulse oximeters back out.
You heard me say it right here,david and Julie.
You know Dr Gottman's nextcrucial discovery?
It came in the way of thosebids for connection.
I really love this.
It's true, what is a hit andwhat is a miss?
And how could we do better inour marriage, julie, with these
bids that our partners are oftenmaking?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
We miss, julie, with these bids that our partners are
often making we miss Bids forconnection are really the key to
a strong relationship, I think,because when we are, you know,
all the time in our everydaylives, we're making small bids
just to connect to anyone.
By the way, it's not just ourpartner, you know, you.
You know, even when you stepinto an elevator and you nod at
(12:46):
the person who's already in theelevator, for instance, that's a
bid for connection, right, andyou're just hoping for a little
nod back.
And if they don't give that nodback, you're a little bit maybe
annoyed, a little bit rejected.
It doesn't feel so nice, right,when someone doesn't just give
you that back.
So turning towards bids forconnection is just acknowledging
(13:09):
that kind of that small gesturethat someone's trying to
connect with you and it's verysimple.
To turn towards a bid andturning away is when you don't
respond and that leaves a personreally feeling a little bit
rejected and not important.
And when you do respond to bids, it makes you feel important,
(13:34):
it makes you feel like youmatter to your partner and that
builds a lot of trust.
That builds a strong, fullemotional bank account, right,
if you imagine couples having anemotional bank account, if
that's really full, you know,there's a big buffer for when
things don't go so well.
So we want to have lots ofturning towards moments so that
(13:56):
we have a lot of positivity inthe relationship, which we need
to offset when there is conflict, which is usually inevitable.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, this concept of bids, Julie.
I'm often asked you know if Icould teach one principle in a
marriage workshop or whatever.
What would it be?
And I always come back to bidsbecause it's powerful, the
research behind it right, thatthese types of interactions
turning toward can predict up tois it 94% right?
Can predict up to is it 94%right Accuracy, whether couples
straight, gay, rich, poor,childless or not will kind of
(14:31):
where that direction will gowith their relationships.
So it really feels like so muchof that is at the heart, really
the spirit of the relationship.
Can you walk us through alittle bit about some of the why
?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I mean what is this?
Why is this so critical?
Well, just imagine when youwake up in the morning and you
turn towards your partner andsay good morning and they don't
say good morning back.
Right, that's lonely, that'ssad, that's disconnected, and a
(15:10):
good morning back just gives youthat little moment together.
And we know this is soimportant because John Gottman
and his colleagues did thisamazing study in the early 90s
where they had 130 newlywedcouples.
(15:31):
You know they were all justgotten married within the last
six months.
They were all equally happy intheir relationship.
You know they did all thesequestionnaires before they
joined the study, questionnairesbefore they joined the study,
and so they would stay one cupat a time in this.
You know, great bed andbreakfast on a lake outside of
Seattle and they were beingfilmed and their heart rates
(15:58):
were being, you know, monitoredand even stress hormones in
their urine was being checkedand everything was being watched
.
You know their facialexpressions and what they were
saying and you know all day asthey were just hanging out.
And that's when they noticed thebids.
They thought, wow, people keepmaking these bids for connection
.
And they noticed that there'sthree ways that couples kind of,
three groups of responses thatwere possible either turning
(16:22):
towards a bid you know, goodmorning and then a good morning
back.
Or a turning away response,which is no response, right?
So good morning and then noresponse.
Or a turning against response,which is really this kind of
negative, kind of leave me alone, I'm busy, kind of response.
And so they watched that.
(16:43):
And then, six years later, theyfound that some couples were
still happily married and somecouples were divorced.
And then they looked back sixyears earlier.
What were those couples doingin that bed and breakfast?
How are they responding towardseach other?
And that was the real bigdifference is how they turn
(17:04):
towards or away.
So the couples that werehappily married, six years later
they turn towards theirpartner's bids 86 percent of the
time.
By the way, it's not perfect,right?
we're not expecting perfectionfrom relationships or partners,
because that's you set yourselfup for failure there.
(17:24):
But 86%, it's a good amount andthe couples that were divorced
within those six years, theyonly turned towards each other
33% of the time.
That's a big difference rightBetween 86 and 33.
It's huge.
We're going.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I don't have this down perfectly.
It bugs my, bugs, my husbandtoo, because we'll be driving in
the car, julie and Dave, andhe'll say, oh, look at that, and
I have no idea what he'stalking about.
Look at that, it could beanything right.
I'm actually writing a textwhile we're driving and anybody
kind of get to those things whenwe're driving with his blessing
and he goes, oh, you missed it,and he so wanted to share that.
I've just noticed in marriagehow important that is right when
(18:04):
you look at blessing.
So he goes oh, you missed it,and he still wanted to share
that.
I've just noticed in marriagehow important that is right.
When you look at that, you canenjoy and share something that's
important to you with yourpartner.
I got to up my game on that.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Well, you know what, Don't be too harsh on yourself,
because if you miss it, you canstill say oh, what was it?
I'm sorry I missed it, that's arepair right.
And then you're still turningtowards.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Tell me, tell me what you saw.
Yeah, I love that, julia.
It's a great reminder on therepair right.
Most important, biggestdifference between happily
married and unhappily is thathappily married are not perfect,
but they do repair, and theyrepair swiftly.
Did I get that right?
Absolutely, you're right.
Well, we know that contempt iscertainly the number one factor
that tears couples apart, soplease share what makes contempt
(18:51):
so devastating to arelationship.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Well, contempt is really a total lack of respect.
When you have contempt towardssomeone, you're really looking
down at them.
There's this, you know, senseof superiority, and the receiver
of contempt, you know, theyfeel really bad and it even
affects their, their immunesystem.
(19:17):
So it's, it's really ourbiggest predictor for
relationship demise, but also itpredicts, you know, poor health
outcomes.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, it'd be just destructive, right that, just
tears that I mean.
If the whole point, if one ofthese needs that we have is
connection and right bids forconnection, that's like a human
need, this desire for attachmentand connection, that it feels
like that contempt.
You know, I don't feelconnected anymore and then a
repair attempt or forgiveness isreally a.
(19:48):
I want to feel connected again.
You know, I'm sorry.
I want to feel that, thatoneness, yeah, that connection
with you again.
And I think one of the biggestways, at least the strongest
predictors, is kindness.
Is that right?
It's really.
Kindness is king.
The research I love theresearch, even in positive
(20:10):
psychology, with Martin Seligman.
He talks about.
He says an act of kindnessproduces the single most
reliable momentary increase inwell-being of any exercise that
they've ever tested.
So even individually, kindnessproduces happiness.
And then, when you put it intorelationships, oh, my goodness,
right, the stability.
(20:30):
Tell us a little bit about whatis it about kindness that is so
powerful?
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Wow.
Well, kindness also impliesthat even when you're upset with
your partner, that you're ableto be respectful and to
understand that your partner hasa different perspective or
their feelings may be hurt aswell.
So it's also the sense of beinggenerous with your partner, and
(21:04):
when we have kindness in therelationship, you Well.
Let me take it back a couple ofsteps.
What we know is positivity inour lives it doesn't weigh as
heavily as negativity does.
So kindness has a big impactbecause you need a lot of
(21:24):
kindness to offset when thingsdon't go well.
So we know also from thatnewlywed study that the couples
that did well over time, theyhad 20 times as much positivity,
meaning kindness, interest,curiosity, generosity, all these
nice things.
(21:44):
They had 20 times as much ofthat versus negativity.
And also what came out of theresearch is that when they argue
, they still had five times asmuch positivity versus
negativity.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So that kindness is big you know when you're kind to
someone, that counts for a lot.
We'll be right back after thisbrief message and we're back.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Let's dive right in.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
What does that look like?
You know, I've never askedanother Gottman-trained
therapist.
What does that look like?
That five to one?
So in an argument, what are thefive positives that might be
happening?
Julie, amidst the one like oh,you just ticked me off so bad.
What is it like?
A little bit of laughter Couldbe.
What does that look?
Speaker 3 (22:42):
like it could be.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
It could also just be like uh-huh, fair enough nice
oh that that came out wrong.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Let me try that again .
Oh sure, go ahead, or it couldbe, suddenly talking about
something else changing thetopic could be.
Yeah, just have a lightermoment.
And it's also how people arefeeling inside, as they are
interacting, it doesn't sit sobadly because they're more
(23:18):
regulated, like their heartrates aren't going up, their
physiology is more stable, sothey're able to keep it lighter.
Let's say, even when talkingabout difficult topics, it's not
to keep uh to, to avoid uhnegativity, because what the
(23:41):
difference is between thehealthy couples, the successful
relationships and the disastersright is the way that they
express their negativity.
So the way they express theiranger, so they don't escalate it
with criticism, with contempt,with defensiveness and with the
(24:03):
stonewalling you know, thosefour horsemen.
There isn't that belligerence.
So instead of expressing thesenegative feelings in unhealthy
ways, they express it inhealthier ways.
So it's not about repressingnegative feelings and even when
you're feeling negative, it canstill be a positive interaction.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, so I feel so frustrated that there's dishes
in the sink right.
I need a clean kitchen before Istart dinner.
Is that one of those?
Speaker 3 (24:31):
things yeah, exactly.
So if it's said like that andthen if your partner says, oh
yeah, I get it, it's a mess, letme quickly clean up, then you
know that's positive.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I wish I could be a fly on the wall in some of those
extended sessions.
You see you have Julie likemarathons right Two or three
days.
You just generally have acouple of favorite.
I don't know Gottman exercisesor something you do with couples
that's like your go-to that ourlisteners and viewers could
heed right now in theirmarriages.
(25:08):
Do you have something thatstands out, a go-to Well?
Speaker 3 (25:13):
one really positive exercise that we always do with
couples before you know that we,they go off into the world and
you know, continue, andhopefully you know, continue the
positive direction they'regoing in is we do something
called the stress reducingconversation.
And the stress reducingconversation is just basically a
(25:39):
hey how was your day, you knowwhat's on your mind?
Kind of conversation, and it'snot about the relationship, it's
just about how they talk witheach other about stresses they
may have in their life.
And it turns out again from theresearch is that the way you
have that conversation reallymakes a difference in terms of
(26:00):
how your relationship will go.
So if you have a productive,constructive and really
supportive conversation there,even if it's just a couple
minutes, it buffers yourrelationship from turning
negative.
So couples that do well on thisand these are kind of the key
takeaways for this exercise isyou don't want to jump in with
(26:23):
solutions.
You don't want to criticizeyour partner.
So if they're really stressed,you don't want to stress them
out by blaming them for being inthat type of situation.
And you don't want to dismisstheir stress, a situation and
you don't want to, you know,dismiss their stress.
So what we just want to do isjust listen, be interested, ask
(26:44):
questions, show empathy, showunderstanding and that's it.
You don't need to solveanything, you don't need to make
it go away.
It's okay that they're stressed, you can just be on their side.
No, you don't want to be on theyou know, the so called enemy
side.
You want to be on the so-calledenemy side.
You want to be on yourpartner's side, and when couples
get good at that, it really,really makes their relationship
(27:08):
great because they have goodconversations.
Just their day-to-dayconversations are supportive and
connected.
They're updated on each other'slives.
That brings a lot of good,strong friendship type quality
into the relationship.
So that I think that's, uh,that's a good one to an easy one
to to um, to apply in your life.
(27:31):
Although you know it'sinteresting when you learn about
this and then you want to applyit, people suddenly realize, oh
, my God, I gave a lot ofunsolicited advice.
Yeah, or you know, you know,maybe you know if your partner
(27:52):
is complaining that you knowthat that their boss was upset
because they got to work late,and then, and then the partner
will say, well, you do always,you know, you are late all the
time.
I understand that your partneror that your boss would will say
well, you do always.
You know you are late all thetime.
I understand that your partneror that your boss would be upset
because you know it pisses meoff too.
Yeah, and that that's not agood idea.
That's going to make your fearor your partner feel really
alone.
So don't do that.
(28:14):
People tend to do that, we alldo, we do.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
It's natural.
You know, yeah, just you know,don't do that.
But people tend to do that.
We all do, we do and it'snatural we do yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Just utilize it.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Or we want to solve right.
You're in pain, so let me helpyou.
Okay, that's the rest of theconversation.
Julie, can you give us one more, one more.
What else did you go to?
What are the tool tip?
What else do you use in thesemarathon couples, in your, in
your sessions with couples thatyou love?
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Well, in terms of conflict, something that I
encourage couples to do and Ipractice with them and it can
take a really long time to dothis really well is the
aftermath of a fight orregrettable incident exercise.
So that's another Gottmanexercise.
You'll find it online and whatthat is is that when couples
have had an incident, a fight,something that is still sitting
between them and they don't talkabout it, they carry that.
(29:11):
It's like they're carrying aheavy backpack with all these
incidents and it's, you know,hurting their backs and they
keep walking around with it andthey're not able to get close.
You know, intimacy is often aproblem because they have all
these unresolved incidents,fights, painful moments, you
(29:33):
know, attachment, injuries, aswe can also call them, and
they're not processed.
And this exercise is brilliantbecause it helps couples to just
slowly, gently, one step at atime, to go through what
happened, and not by jumping toI'm sorry's too quickly.
First really understanding eachother's feelings, other's
(29:56):
perspectives, understanding whythis was so painful Did it
trigger anything from earlier inlife, then taking
responsibility, then apologizingand also looking at how can we
prevent such a situation fromhappening again.
So I love that one because alot of healing takes place with
(30:17):
that one.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
I love all those feeling words on that one sheet,
you know, in that littlepamphlet, because it helps you
understand, like, oh, this ishow I feel, right, I felt
devastated, broken, I feltbetrayed or whatever it might be
, helps you get clear on that.
That is how I feel.
So how's those prompts?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Yes, that's great, that's a great one no-transcript
(31:00):
.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
It takes a while to go through that.
Do you try to do them back toback Julie?
Yeah, One partner and then thenext partner shares.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
That's the beauty of thoseextended sessions you have,
sister Wonderful.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Let me see if I can tie some of this together.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
We're talking about.
We started talking about, withemotions, you know, feeling
flooded and um with the.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
What is it called?
the oxidant, whatever you put onyour fingers.
And then we talked aboutkindness and in my mind I'm
trying to merge all thesetogether and it's and it started
to make a lot more sensebecause once we, if we
experience strong feelings, inmy mind it it turns us inward
and then I can't see you orreally care about you.
So my perspective changes andif I'm feeling flooded, the last
thing I want to do is be kind.
(31:48):
Right, so all of these are sorelated.
We get into a trajectory Strongfeelings lead to strong words
and actions, and it just takesus off the cliff, whereas we can
back way up and catch it, checkit, change it right.
I talk about watching ourtemper, our tongue and our tone
of voice.
Take a time out and breathe,because what you're about to say
(32:10):
is not going to be kind, andthen it's going to take you even
further, whereas a differenttrajectory helps us to be
mindful.
And again it feels like thisstrong emotions turn me inward,
but these loving emotions canturn me outward, and then
kindness is outward and I wantto get your take on one more
quality, and that in.
(32:31):
Recently, I feel like I rarelytalk about kindness without
talking about I call it the flipside.
I consider them almost twosides of the same coin and that
is kindness and gratitude,because when someone is kind,
hopefully the other person isgrateful, that those two in my
mind really should go togetherand that they're both outward.
(32:55):
Kindness is not about me,gratitude it's not about me.
It's never about me.
It's about the other kind ofthis other-centered-ness.
Any thoughts about my ramblings?
Kindness and gratitude.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
I love everything that you're saying.
Yes, and gratitude, yes,appreciation.
What that gives us is thatwe're seen by our partners,
right, we're valued.
We really sense that, oh, ourpartner wants us in their lives.
They really see what we bringto the table.
(33:30):
They're noticing, right, thatgratitude and having that
gratitude together creates sucha connection.
That gratitude together createssuch a connection.
And you know one of in thetheory of the sound relationship
house theory, which is theGottman theory about what builds
strong relationships.
Having a sense of sharedfondness and admiration is so,
(33:53):
so important in the basis of thefoundation of the relationship
the friendship.
Really having that respect,that appreciation, being warm
and kind, and you know givingcompliments and saying I love
you and, um, you know, beingaffectionate, you know having
being, yeah, just showingappreciation verbally and
(34:15):
non-verbally, that's what, yeah,that makes a relationship.
So, you know, warm and nice andyou know worth it, right, it's
that brings so much connection.
It's also, you know, whereromance and passion lives.
You know, with that kind ofattitude, I'm grateful to have
(34:38):
you in my life.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Yeah, oh, that's great.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
And you know you can think it, but you got to say it
Right, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, I think a lot of good things and they don't
come out my mouth and you'rewell, quite well taken, julie.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Well, julie, there's a question that we'd like to ask
each of our guests here on theStronger Marriage Connection
podcast, in honor of the name ofour podcast, what do you feel
like is the key, or keys, to astronger marriage connection?
Speaker 3 (35:25):
is one key, but I think that people need to look
at themselves more, and I'm abit biased because I'm a couples
therapist, so I get couples inmy office that are blaming each
other for the problems thatthey're having and what I really
I think what I'm really tryingto get them to do is to look at
themselves, to be accountable,to take that ownership
themselves.
You know, am I being kind?
(35:47):
Am I being generous?
Am I showing appreciation?
Am I turning towards bids?
What am I bringing to the tablehere?
Here, I think, looking atyourself, not jumping to blame,
you know, into criticism, intocontempt mode, saying hey, let's
slow down.
Am I flooded?
You know, how am I doing insideright now?
(36:08):
What am I feeling?
How am I expressing that?
So, and that's the inward workthat you can do and it gives
that.
You know, that comes out askindness, really.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah it makes you so much of a safer partner.
Right, I know the kinder I am,I know the safer I make my
connection with my husbandexactly very much so where can
our listeners really find outmore about you and your
tremendous resources andtrainings?
You train couples, couples.
You train therapists.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
You've got it all going on Well so I'm in, so I'm
located in Amsterdam, in theNetherlands, and I have.
I founded the Center forRelationship Learning, so you
can check that out, center forRelationship Learning dot com,
and that's where I'll giveworkshops for couples and mostly
(37:01):
also trainings for othertherapists.
So I give the Gottman trainings.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Beautiful.
We can find you online right.
We can work with you online.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Absolutely, yep, great Love that technology, yeah
that's great, and we'll putthose links in our show notes
for our listeners, where you canfind out more about Julie and
what she offers Julie as we wrapup our time together, what
would you say is the mostimportant message we call it our
takeaway of the day that youwant our listeners to remember
about what makes marriagesthrive.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Slow down, take a look inside.
Don't respond too quickly, youknow.
Think before you act, thinkbefore you speak, feel before
you speak man that's.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
I love that message.
I call that learning to becomea first responder rather than a
nuclear reactor.
A nuclear reactor right rightExplodes, but a first responder
is like okay, let's assessbreathing and heart rate and do
it in a calm way.
That is more helpful.
First responders are than anuclear reactor Liz.
(38:10):
What about you?
What's your takeaway of the daywith our time with Julie?
Speaker 2 (38:14):
So many.
Right, I have a whole list here, but I do keep coming back to
kindness.
I love at the top of our startoday, kindness and generosity.
You know, I think marriage israther simple.
I think we as human beings canmake it rather complicated, but
I do think it's simpler than weoften make it.
(38:35):
Would you agree?
First off, julie and Dave.
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (38:40):
When he talks about right Julie, john talks about
friendship and they're like man.
After all these years, you knowwhat is the secret.
And they're like friendship.
Yeah, just nice to each other,and when they're not, they seek
to repair.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yeah, make up, you know.
Yes, don't be too proud.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, that's right.
And for you, Dave, what's yourtop takeaway from our time with
Julie today?
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah, julie, first, thank you, Thanks for making
time to join us to share so manytips and tools for practical
things that our listeners can do.
I love that as well.
Kindness, liz.
But I guess that one stepbefore is those emotions.
I think if people can justsimply slow down or take a
breath and get out of thoseunhealthy cycles, you don't have
(39:33):
to react to those.
Just learn to slow down, topause, to take a breath and
don't take those hooks right Toreact that we want to jump back
in.
It just sends our brain into atailspin and we can't think
clearly.
And then we yeah, then we'rerarely kind, so I just think of
(39:54):
those emotions tied to that.
That was kind of a littlethought that came to me is tying
that emotional part of thebrain to unkindness.
But if we can stop, then we'remuch more on a better trajectory
anyway, with kindness andgratitude.
So thank you.
Yeah, julie, thanks again,thanks.
We appreciate you taking timeto share so many helpful tips
(40:16):
and tools with our listenerstoday.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me, it wasfun.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
And we'll see you around the Gottman site, Julie,
I hope.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Yes, yeah, I just want to put a little plug in for
our listeners and maybe we'llput some links to these, some of
the articles and things thatyou have done, julie.
I think it's been very helpfulover the years.
So appreciate that all you havedone and that does it for us,
our friends.
Thanks so much for tuning in toanother episode of Stronger
Marriage Connection.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yep and remember, it's the small and simple things
that create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take good care of yourself andeach other.
Bye-bye now.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(41:19):
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so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
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StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(41:40):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(42:04):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
On today's episode, dr Liz and I welcome Julie
Sharon to the show and wediscuss practical tips and tools
based on the research by Johnand Julie Gottman.
From the importance ofregulating emotions to
responding to bids forconnection and making repair
attempts, you'll hear aboutseveral ways you can improve
your marriage based on decadesof research.
You can improve your marriagebased on decades of research.
(00:27):
Julie Sharon Wagshall is a DutchAmerican psychologist,
relationship educator andfounder of the Center for
Relationship Learning.
She offers therapy andworkshops for couples and
training and consultation forprofessionals by using the
Gottman Method for CouplesTherapy.
Julie has an MA in CounselingPsychology and a BA in
Psychology.
Primarily working within thelocal international community,
julie has counseled clients fromover 50 countries At her
(00:50):
private practice.
She helps distressed anddisconnected couples to
rediscover and reignitefriendship and intimacy and
improve their communicationskills, often in long marathon
sessions.
Often in long marathon sessions.
Ultimately, julie's mission isto support couples to become
closer and kinder with eachother so they can create safe
and loving homes for themselvesand their families.
(01:12):
We hope you enjoy the show.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection.
I'm psychologist, dr Liz Hale,along with the beloved professor
Dr Dave Schramm, and togetherwe are dedicating our life's
work to bringing you the best wehave in valid marital research,
along with a few tips and toolsto help you create the marriage
of your dreams.
Well, science says lastingrelationships come down to two
(01:44):
things, and any guess on thesetwo particular terms, dave.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Oh man, I mean friendship is what the Gottmans
talk about, but there's allkinds of things.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yep, and you know what?
I remember interviewing JohnGottman.
I was talking to him about themasters versus the disasters
that he found in his researchand I said who are these masters
?
Did they have perfectchildhoods?
What was it about them?
He goes, you know, we can'treally find a rule, a reason,
but it does come down tokindness, isn't that beautiful
(02:13):
Kindness?
And then in some other research, generosity was the other term.
But today we are thrilled tohave Julie Sharon, a
Dutch-American psychologist,joining us today.
To have Julie Sharon, aDutch-American psychologist,
joining us today.
In her work with clientsspanning over 50 countries, she
has followed the science of loveand well, her focus is to help
distressed and disconnectedcouples rediscover and reignite
(02:37):
friendships and intimacy.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection, julie Sharon.
Thank you so much.
You clearly love what you doand we love that about you.
Can.
Can you start by?
Can we start by asking you isthere a hope for love today?
You know, I think even forthose couples who might be
struggling on the daily, whereare we?
(02:58):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
I definitely think there's hope, otherwise I
wouldn't be doing this work, andI guess the two of you agree
right.
So we're all hopeful, butpeople can struggle.
It's not always easy, but thereare so many tools out there and
ways to make things better andeveryone I mean most people
would love to have a goodrelationship, so we do see a lot
(03:21):
of people really working hardto get that good relationship.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
We do know more than ever before people really
working hard to get that goodrelationship.
We do know more than everbefore, don't we, about what
makes a marriage thrive.
It's a good time to be married.
I'm often telling my clients.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
That's a good point.
Yeah, there's more and moreresearch, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, let's dive into that a little bit, julie, as
you know right about theGottmans and their know at the
mid-1980s University ofWashington kind of setting the
stage for our listeners Coupleswere observed, at least in some
of these studies, as they spokeabout the highs and the lows of
their relationships.
All the while there's theseelectrodes, you know, plastered
(03:59):
on their bodies that aremeasuring, you know, blood flow
and heart rate and sweat, allkinds of things that they're
measuring.
And the couples were then senthome and interviewed upwards of
six years later.
And the bottom line even thougha couple might look calm on the
outside, it doesn't mean thatthey're calm on the inside, and
(04:20):
that's what seems to count in alot of their research.
So during your sessions withcouples, how do you instruct
them, I guess, on this greatinsight and, more importantly,
how do you help them with theirphysiology so it doesn't wreck
their relationship?
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Well, first of all, I don't assume that I can see on
the outside how they are feelingon the inside, and I don't
assume that they know how theyare feeling on the inside and I
don't assume that they know howthey are feeling on the inside.
So we tend to think that weknow when our heart rate is up
high, right, but that's not thecase.
So what the research shows isthat we're not very well aware
(04:59):
of how fast our heart is beatingwhen we're in fight or flight.
And so what the research showsthat Gottman and his colleagues
were doing is that when couplesare interacting and their heart
rate is high, and sometimes evenabove 100, even though they're
just sitting there next to eachother having a conversation, it
(05:22):
does indicate that they're infight or flight and that their
relationship is in trouble.
And so we do have to measurethat by using pulse oximeter.
So in sessions I actually use apulse oximeter.
So I have my couples put.
They pop on a pulse oximeter ontheir finger and we see where
(05:44):
is their heart rate.
Is it up high?
And if so, let's take a breakand first calm down, because if
we have them continue theirconversations when they're in
fight or flight, thoseconversations don't go very well
.
But if we have them calm down,if they learn to soothe
themselves, they are able tohave much better conversations.
(06:06):
It's amazing.
That's what the research shows.
So they had couples sit in thelab having a conflict
conversation and when one of thecouples maybe one or both
partners their heart rate wouldgo above 100, they would come in
, stop the interaction, givethem a magazine to read and
watch their heart rate go down,down, down, down down and once
(06:29):
they were back to their baserate, they would instruct them
to continue the conversation and, as John Gottman says, it was
like they had like a braintransplant, like they were two
different people having thatsame conversation, while the
couples, you know the thecontrol group.
They were not interrupted, sothey kept going as they were.
(06:50):
You know, their heart rate wasup high and they were having
conflicts and they really hadbad outcomes in terms of that,
those conversations so I'mcurious, jump in here and and
ask them a more like a practicalquestion.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I don't have these little, you know, these little
things on my fingers at home.
So, practically speaking, afterthey leave, are there ways the
couples can kind of get a senseof OK, we need to take a break
here because things arederailing.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Yes, first of all, having the knowledge that this
happens changes things forpeople.
When they learn about thisresearch, they start to notice
it in their own lives and theystart to notice yes, sometimes
we do get into these fights andI keep repeating myself, doesn't
go anywhere.
And then when we you know, whensomeone leaves the room, you
(07:43):
know we're really stressed andwe can't stop thinking about it.
You know they're ruminating on,you know what's happening in
the fight and what they'retalking about.
So they do start to recognizethat this happens and so they
can bring it into their lives bynoticing it in those moments.
And we practice how to take aneffective break and an effective
(08:07):
break.
What we know is it takes about20 to 30 minutes to calm down,
but only if you're really doingsomething that can calm you down
.
So if you keep ruminating,you're not going to, you know,
calm down.
So you really got to distractyourself so that your body can
(08:29):
come back to its balanced state.
And then, after about 20 to 30minutes, you contact your
partner.
You agree on a time when totalk about it.
It doesn't have to be at thatmoment, because it might not be
a good time or you both mightnot be calm, but it's good to do
it within 24 hours, becauseoften this is actually really
important.
(08:49):
There's one person who wants toleave the conversation.
They're like, hey, I'm flooded,I need a break.
So they're in flight mode, buttheir partner is then often in
fight mode and they want to keepgoing and they feel really
abandoned.
When their partner wants totake a break and they're worried
(09:09):
you know there's a lot ofthings to say and they want to
finish their thoughts and theirsentences and they're not able
to and it's really frustrating.
They may feel abandoned or liketheir partner is never going to
come back to the conversation.
So you really need to make anagreement about coming back.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Okay, that's great.
Okay, so they can learn thisOnce they become aware of it,
then they can, okay, catchthemselves.
Hey, let's talk about this andwe're in this unhealthy patterns
and we need to kind of halt,take a break right before we go
off the ledge.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, and it's good.
You know, when couples talkabout this, they're actually
communicating about how theyfight and they can make
agreements about how they can dothings better.
Now, if people want to work onhow they have conflict, they
really can make changes if theyboth commit to doing that.
And I think really importantthat they look at themselves,
(10:06):
that they're not just waitingfor their partners to change,
but they commit to changingthemselves.
Take ownership of this process.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
You know, tina Turner used to ask what's love got to
do with that, right friends?
And now we're asking adifferent question what does
physiology have to do with that?
And it turns out a lot.
You know, I got to be honest,julie and Dave.
I have had a love-haterelationship with those pulse
oximeters.
But, julie, you've given me arenewed faith to get them back
out again.
You use them in a session, itsounds like.
(10:38):
And how do you do that insession?
Do you just hit pause on 20minutes?
Send somebody out?
How do you use?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
them in the session.
Well, if one or both partners,if their heart rate is really
above 100, then we just take abreak.
I ask them hey, you take offyour pulse oximeter, get
(11:08):
yourself in a comfortableposition, close your you know,
close your eyes.
We'll do a relaxation exercise.
You know, total body relaxation, whatever type of meditation,
breathing exercise that worksfor them.
Sometimes people want to gotake a walk, you know, and it
tends not to happen that oftenin the session.
Once it's happened, once theystart to get the feeling, oh
wait, it's happening, let meslow down.
(11:29):
So they start to, instead of itescalating like that, they
start to repair the interactionsbefore the escalation, and
that's really what we want.
So, you know, it can happenthat people really get flooded
we call it getting flooded whentheir heart rate goes over 100.
But ultimately we're trying toget them to repair the negative
(11:58):
cycle before it escalates.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
The negative cycle.
It's beautiful.
I love that I'm going to get mypulse oximeters back out.
You heard me say it right here.
The negative cycle.
It's beautiful.
I love that I'm going to get mypulse oximeters back out.
You heard me say it right here,david and Julie.
You know Dr Gottman's nextcrucial discovery?
It came in the way of thosebids for connection.
I really love this.
It's true, what is a hit andwhat is a miss?
And how could we do better inour marriage, julie, with these
bids that our partners are oftenmaking?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
We miss, julie, with these bids that our partners are
often making we miss Bids forconnection are really the key to
a strong relationship, I think,because when we are, you know,
all the time in our everydaylives, we're making small bids
just to connect to anyone.
By the way, it's not just ourpartner, you know, you.
You know, even when you stepinto an elevator and you nod at
(12:46):
the person who's already in theelevator, for instance, that's a
bid for connection, right, andyou're just hoping for a little
nod back.
And if they don't give that nodback, you're a little bit maybe
annoyed, a little bit rejected.
It doesn't feel so nice, right,when someone doesn't just give
you that back.
So turning towards bids forconnection is just acknowledging
(13:09):
that kind of that small gesturethat someone's trying to
connect with you and it's verysimple.
To turn towards a bid andturning away is when you don't
respond and that leaves a personreally feeling a little bit
rejected and not important.
And when you do respond to bids, it makes you feel important,
(13:34):
it makes you feel like youmatter to your partner and that
builds a lot of trust.
That builds a strong, fullemotional bank account, right,
if you imagine couples having anemotional bank account, if
that's really full, you know,there's a big buffer for when
things don't go so well.
So we want to have lots ofturning towards moments so that
(13:56):
we have a lot of positivity inthe relationship, which we need
to offset when there is conflict, which is usually inevitable.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, this concept of bids, Julie.
I'm often asked you know if Icould teach one principle in a
marriage workshop or whatever.
What would it be?
And I always come back to bidsbecause it's powerful, the
research behind it right, thatthese types of interactions
turning toward can predict up tois it 94% right?
Can predict up to is it 94%right Accuracy, whether couples
straight, gay, rich, poor,childless or not will kind of
(14:31):
where that direction will gowith their relationships.
So it really feels like so muchof that is at the heart, really
the spirit of the relationship.
Can you walk us through alittle bit about some of the why
?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I mean what is this?
Why is this so critical?
Well, just imagine when youwake up in the morning and you
turn towards your partner andsay good morning and they don't
say good morning back.
Right, that's lonely, that'ssad, that's disconnected, and a
(15:10):
good morning back just gives youthat little moment together.
And we know this is soimportant because John Gottman
and his colleagues did thisamazing study in the early 90s
where they had 130 newlywedcouples.
(15:31):
You know they were all justgotten married within the last
six months.
They were all equally happy intheir relationship.
You know they did all thesequestionnaires before they
joined the study, questionnairesbefore they joined the study,
and so they would stay one cupat a time in this.
You know, great bed andbreakfast on a lake outside of
Seattle and they were beingfilmed and their heart rates
(15:58):
were being, you know, monitoredand even stress hormones in
their urine was being checkedand everything was being watched
.
You know their facialexpressions and what they were
saying and you know all day asthey were just hanging out.
And that's when they noticed thebids.
They thought, wow, people keepmaking these bids for connection
.
And they noticed that there'sthree ways that couples kind of,
three groups of responses thatwere possible either turning
(16:22):
towards a bid you know, goodmorning and then a good morning
back.
Or a turning away response,which is no response, right?
So good morning and then noresponse.
Or a turning against response,which is really this kind of
negative, kind of leave me alone, I'm busy, kind of response.
And so they watched that.
(16:43):
And then, six years later, theyfound that some couples were
still happily married and somecouples were divorced.
And then they looked back sixyears earlier.
What were those couples doingin that bed and breakfast?
How are they responding towardseach other?
And that was the real bigdifference is how they turn
(17:04):
towards or away.
So the couples that werehappily married, six years later
they turn towards theirpartner's bids 86 percent of the
time.
By the way, it's not perfect,right?
we're not expecting perfectionfrom relationships or partners,
because that's you set yourselfup for failure there.
(17:24):
But 86%, it's a good amount andthe couples that were divorced
within those six years, theyonly turned towards each other
33% of the time.
That's a big difference rightBetween 86 and 33.
It's huge.
We're going.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I don't have this down perfectly.
It bugs my, bugs, my husbandtoo, because we'll be driving in
the car, julie and Dave, andhe'll say, oh, look at that, and
I have no idea what he'stalking about.
Look at that, it could beanything right.
I'm actually writing a textwhile we're driving and anybody
kind of get to those things whenwe're driving with his blessing
and he goes, oh, you missed it,and he so wanted to share that.
I've just noticed in marriagehow important that is right when
(18:04):
you look at blessing.
So he goes oh, you missed it,and he still wanted to share
that.
I've just noticed in marriagehow important that is right.
When you look at that, you canenjoy and share something that's
important to you with yourpartner.
I got to up my game on that.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Well, you know what, Don't be too harsh on yourself,
because if you miss it, you canstill say oh, what was it?
I'm sorry I missed it, that's arepair right.
And then you're still turningtowards.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Tell me, tell me what you saw.
Yeah, I love that, julia.
It's a great reminder on therepair right.
Most important, biggestdifference between happily
married and unhappily is thathappily married are not perfect,
but they do repair, and theyrepair swiftly.
Did I get that right?
Absolutely, you're right.
Well, we know that contempt iscertainly the number one factor
that tears couples apart, soplease share what makes contempt
(18:51):
so devastating to arelationship.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Well, contempt is really a total lack of respect.
When you have contempt towardssomeone, you're really looking
down at them.
There's this, you know, senseof superiority, and the receiver
of contempt, you know, theyfeel really bad and it even
affects their, their immunesystem.
(19:17):
So it's, it's really ourbiggest predictor for
relationship demise, but also itpredicts, you know, poor health
outcomes.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, it'd be just destructive, right that, just
tears that I mean.
If the whole point, if one ofthese needs that we have is
connection and right bids forconnection, that's like a human
need, this desire for attachmentand connection, that it feels
like that contempt.
You know, I don't feelconnected anymore and then a
repair attempt or forgiveness isreally a.
(19:48):
I want to feel connected again.
You know, I'm sorry.
I want to feel that, thatoneness, yeah, that connection
with you again.
And I think one of the biggestways, at least the strongest
predictors, is kindness.
Is that right?
It's really.
Kindness is king.
The research I love theresearch, even in positive
(20:10):
psychology, with Martin Seligman.
He talks about.
He says an act of kindnessproduces the single most
reliable momentary increase inwell-being of any exercise that
they've ever tested.
So even individually, kindnessproduces happiness.
And then, when you put it intorelationships, oh, my goodness,
right, the stability.
(20:30):
Tell us a little bit about whatis it about kindness that is so
powerful?
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Wow.
Well, kindness also impliesthat even when you're upset with
your partner, that you're ableto be respectful and to
understand that your partner hasa different perspective or
their feelings may be hurt aswell.
So it's also the sense of beinggenerous with your partner, and
(21:04):
when we have kindness in therelationship, you Well.
Let me take it back a couple ofsteps.
What we know is positivity inour lives it doesn't weigh as
heavily as negativity does.
So kindness has a big impactbecause you need a lot of
(21:24):
kindness to offset when thingsdon't go well.
So we know also from thatnewlywed study that the couples
that did well over time, theyhad 20 times as much positivity,
meaning kindness, interest,curiosity, generosity, all these
nice things.
(21:44):
They had 20 times as much ofthat versus negativity.
And also what came out of theresearch is that when they argue
, they still had five times asmuch positivity versus
negativity.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So that kindness is big you know when you're kind to
someone, that counts for a lot.
We'll be right back after thisbrief message and we're back.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Let's dive right in.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
What does that look like?
You know, I've never askedanother Gottman-trained
therapist.
What does that look like?
That five to one?
So in an argument, what are thefive positives that might be
happening?
Julie, amidst the one like oh,you just ticked me off so bad.
What is it like?
A little bit of laughter Couldbe.
What does that look?
Speaker 3 (22:42):
like it could be.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
It could also just be like uh-huh, fair enough nice
oh that that came out wrong.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Let me try that again .
Oh sure, go ahead, or it couldbe, suddenly talking about
something else changing thetopic could be.
Yeah, just have a lightermoment.
And it's also how people arefeeling inside, as they are
interacting, it doesn't sit sobadly because they're more
(23:18):
regulated, like their heartrates aren't going up, their
physiology is more stable, sothey're able to keep it lighter.
Let's say, even when talkingabout difficult topics, it's not
to keep uh to, to avoid uhnegativity, because what the
(23:41):
difference is between thehealthy couples, the successful
relationships and the disastersright is the way that they
express their negativity.
So the way they express theiranger, so they don't escalate it
with criticism, with contempt,with defensiveness and with the
(24:03):
stonewalling you know, thosefour horsemen.
There isn't that belligerence.
So instead of expressing thesenegative feelings in unhealthy
ways, they express it inhealthier ways.
So it's not about repressingnegative feelings and even when
you're feeling negative, it canstill be a positive interaction.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, so I feel so frustrated that there's dishes
in the sink right.
I need a clean kitchen before Istart dinner.
Is that one of those?
Speaker 3 (24:31):
things yeah, exactly.
So if it's said like that andthen if your partner says, oh
yeah, I get it, it's a mess, letme quickly clean up, then you
know that's positive.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I wish I could be a fly on the wall in some of those
extended sessions.
You see you have Julie likemarathons right Two or three
days.
You just generally have acouple of favorite.
I don't know Gottman exercisesor something you do with couples
that's like your go-to that ourlisteners and viewers could
heed right now in theirmarriages.
(25:08):
Do you have something thatstands out, a go-to Well?
Speaker 3 (25:13):
one really positive exercise that we always do with
couples before you know that we,they go off into the world and
you know, continue, andhopefully you know, continue the
positive direction they'regoing in is we do something
called the stress reducingconversation.
And the stress reducingconversation is just basically a
(25:39):
hey how was your day, you knowwhat's on your mind?
Kind of conversation, and it'snot about the relationship, it's
just about how they talk witheach other about stresses they
may have in their life.
And it turns out again from theresearch is that the way you
have that conversation reallymakes a difference in terms of
(26:00):
how your relationship will go.
So if you have a productive,constructive and really
supportive conversation there,even if it's just a couple
minutes, it buffers yourrelationship from turning
negative.
So couples that do well on thisand these are kind of the key
takeaways for this exercise isyou don't want to jump in with
(26:23):
solutions.
You don't want to criticizeyour partner.
So if they're really stressed,you don't want to stress them
out by blaming them for being inthat type of situation.
And you don't want to dismisstheir stress, a situation and
you don't want to, you know,dismiss their stress.
So what we just want to do isjust listen, be interested, ask
(26:44):
questions, show empathy, showunderstanding and that's it.
You don't need to solveanything, you don't need to make
it go away.
It's okay that they're stressed, you can just be on their side.
No, you don't want to be on theyou know, the so called enemy
side.
You want to be on the so-calledenemy side.
You want to be on yourpartner's side, and when couples
get good at that, it really,really makes their relationship
(27:08):
great because they have goodconversations.
Just their day-to-dayconversations are supportive and
connected.
They're updated on each other'slives.
That brings a lot of good,strong friendship type quality
into the relationship.
So that I think that's, uh,that's a good one to an easy one
to to um, to apply in your life.
(27:31):
Although you know it'sinteresting when you learn about
this and then you want to applyit, people suddenly realize, oh
, my God, I gave a lot ofunsolicited advice.
Yeah, or you know, you know,maybe you know if your partner
(27:52):
is complaining that you knowthat that their boss was upset
because they got to work late,and then, and then the partner
will say, well, you do always,you know, you are late all the
time.
I understand that your partneror that your boss would will say
well, you do always.
You know you are late all thetime.
I understand that your partneror that your boss would be upset
because you know it pisses meoff too.
Yeah, and that that's not agood idea.
That's going to make your fearor your partner feel really
alone.
So don't do that.
(28:14):
People tend to do that, we alldo, we do.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
It's natural.
You know, yeah, just you know,don't do that.
But people tend to do that.
We all do, we do and it'snatural we do yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Just utilize it.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Or we want to solve right.
You're in pain, so let me helpyou.
Okay, that's the rest of theconversation.
Julie, can you give us one more, one more.
What else did you go to?
What are the tool tip?
What else do you use in thesemarathon couples, in your, in
your sessions with couples thatyou love?
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Well, in terms of conflict, something that I
encourage couples to do and Ipractice with them and it can
take a really long time to dothis really well is the
aftermath of a fight orregrettable incident exercise.
So that's another Gottmanexercise.
You'll find it online and whatthat is is that when couples
have had an incident, a fight,something that is still sitting
between them and they don't talkabout it, they carry that.
(29:11):
It's like they're carrying aheavy backpack with all these
incidents and it's, you know,hurting their backs and they
keep walking around with it andthey're not able to get close.
You know, intimacy is often aproblem because they have all
these unresolved incidents,fights, painful moments, you
(29:33):
know, attachment, injuries, aswe can also call them, and
they're not processed.
And this exercise is brilliantbecause it helps couples to just
slowly, gently, one step at atime, to go through what
happened, and not by jumping toI'm sorry's too quickly.
First really understanding eachother's feelings, other's
(29:56):
perspectives, understanding whythis was so painful Did it
trigger anything from earlier inlife, then taking
responsibility, then apologizingand also looking at how can we
prevent such a situation fromhappening again.
So I love that one because alot of healing takes place with
(30:17):
that one.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
I love all those feeling words on that one sheet,
you know, in that littlepamphlet, because it helps you
understand, like, oh, this ishow I feel, right, I felt
devastated, broken, I feltbetrayed or whatever it might be
, helps you get clear on that.
That is how I feel.
So how's those prompts?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Yes, that's great, that's a great one no-transcript
(31:00):
.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
It takes a while to go through that.
Do you try to do them back toback Julie?
Yeah, One partner and then thenext partner shares.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
That's the beauty of thoseextended sessions you have,
sister Wonderful.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Let me see if I can tie some of this together.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
We're talking about.
We started talking about, withemotions, you know, feeling
flooded and um with the.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
What is it called?
the oxidant, whatever you put onyour fingers.
And then we talked aboutkindness and in my mind I'm
trying to merge all thesetogether and it's and it started
to make a lot more sensebecause once we, if we
experience strong feelings, inmy mind it it turns us inward
and then I can't see you orreally care about you.
So my perspective changes andif I'm feeling flooded, the last
thing I want to do is be kind.
(31:48):
Right, so all of these are sorelated.
We get into a trajectory Strongfeelings lead to strong words
and actions, and it just takesus off the cliff, whereas we can
back way up and catch it, checkit, change it right.
I talk about watching ourtemper, our tongue and our tone
of voice.
Take a time out and breathe,because what you're about to say
(32:10):
is not going to be kind, andthen it's going to take you even
further, whereas a differenttrajectory helps us to be
mindful.
And again it feels like thisstrong emotions turn me inward,
but these loving emotions canturn me outward, and then
kindness is outward and I wantto get your take on one more
quality, and that in.
(32:31):
Recently, I feel like I rarelytalk about kindness without
talking about I call it the flipside.
I consider them almost twosides of the same coin and that
is kindness and gratitude,because when someone is kind,
hopefully the other person isgrateful, that those two in my
mind really should go togetherand that they're both outward.
(32:55):
Kindness is not about me,gratitude it's not about me.
It's never about me.
It's about the other kind ofthis other-centered-ness.
Any thoughts about my ramblings?
Kindness and gratitude.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
I love everything that you're saying.
Yes, and gratitude, yes,appreciation.
What that gives us is thatwe're seen by our partners,
right, we're valued.
We really sense that, oh, ourpartner wants us in their lives.
They really see what we bringto the table.
(33:30):
They're noticing, right, thatgratitude and having that
gratitude together creates sucha connection.
That gratitude together createssuch a connection.
And you know one of in thetheory of the sound relationship
house theory, which is theGottman theory about what builds
strong relationships.
Having a sense of sharedfondness and admiration is so,
(33:53):
so important in the basis of thefoundation of the relationship
the friendship.
Really having that respect,that appreciation, being warm
and kind, and you know givingcompliments and saying I love
you and, um, you know, beingaffectionate, you know having
being, yeah, just showingappreciation verbally and
(34:15):
non-verbally, that's what, yeah,that makes a relationship.
So, you know, warm and nice andyou know worth it, right, it's
that brings so much connection.
It's also, you know, whereromance and passion lives.
You know, with that kind ofattitude, I'm grateful to have
(34:38):
you in my life.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Yeah, oh, that's great.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
And you know you can think it, but you got to say it
Right, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, I think a lot of good things and they don't
come out my mouth and you'rewell, quite well taken, julie.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Well, julie, there's a question that we'd like to ask
each of our guests here on theStronger Marriage Connection
podcast, in honor of the name ofour podcast, what do you feel
like is the key, or keys, to astronger marriage connection?
Speaker 3 (35:25):
is one key, but I think that people need to look
at themselves more, and I'm abit biased because I'm a couples
therapist, so I get couples inmy office that are blaming each
other for the problems thatthey're having and what I really
I think what I'm really tryingto get them to do is to look at
themselves, to be accountable,to take that ownership
themselves.
You know, am I being kind?
(35:47):
Am I being generous?
Am I showing appreciation?
Am I turning towards bids?
What am I bringing to the tablehere?
Here, I think, looking atyourself, not jumping to blame,
you know, into criticism, intocontempt mode, saying hey, let's
slow down.
Am I flooded?
You know, how am I doing insideright now?
(36:08):
What am I feeling?
How am I expressing that?
So, and that's the inward workthat you can do and it gives
that.
You know, that comes out askindness, really.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah it makes you so much of a safer partner.
Right, I know the kinder I am,I know the safer I make my
connection with my husbandexactly very much so where can
our listeners really find outmore about you and your
tremendous resources andtrainings?
You train couples, couples.
You train therapists.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
You've got it all going on Well so I'm in, so I'm
located in Amsterdam, in theNetherlands, and I have.
I founded the Center forRelationship Learning, so you
can check that out, center forRelationship Learning dot com,
and that's where I'll giveworkshops for couples and mostly
(37:01):
also trainings for othertherapists.
So I give the Gottman trainings.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Beautiful.
We can find you online right.
We can work with you online.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Absolutely, yep, great Love that technology, yeah
that's great, and we'll putthose links in our show notes
for our listeners, where you canfind out more about Julie and
what she offers Julie as we wrapup our time together, what
would you say is the mostimportant message we call it our
takeaway of the day that youwant our listeners to remember
about what makes marriagesthrive.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Slow down, take a look inside.
Don't respond too quickly, youknow.
Think before you act, thinkbefore you speak, feel before
you speak man that's.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
I love that message.
I call that learning to becomea first responder rather than a
nuclear reactor.
A nuclear reactor right rightExplodes, but a first responder
is like okay, let's assessbreathing and heart rate and do
it in a calm way.
That is more helpful.
First responders are than anuclear reactor Liz.
(38:10):
What about you?
What's your takeaway of the daywith our time with Julie?
Speaker 2 (38:14):
So many.
Right, I have a whole list here, but I do keep coming back to
kindness.
I love at the top of our startoday, kindness and generosity.
You know, I think marriage israther simple.
I think we as human beings canmake it rather complicated, but
I do think it's simpler than weoften make it.
(38:35):
Would you agree?
First off, julie and Dave.
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (38:40):
When he talks about right Julie, john talks about
friendship and they're like man.
After all these years, you knowwhat is the secret.
And they're like friendship.
Yeah, just nice to each other,and when they're not, they seek
to repair.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yeah, make up, you know.
Yes, don't be too proud.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, that's right.
And for you, Dave, what's yourtop takeaway from our time with
Julie today?
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah, julie, first, thank you, Thanks for making
time to join us to share so manytips and tools for practical
things that our listeners can do.
I love that as well.
Kindness, liz.
But I guess that one stepbefore is those emotions.
I think if people can justsimply slow down or take a
breath and get out of thoseunhealthy cycles, you don't have
(39:33):
to react to those.
Just learn to slow down, topause, to take a breath and
don't take those hooks right Toreact that we want to jump back
in.
It just sends our brain into atailspin and we can't think
clearly.
And then we yeah, then we'rerarely kind, so I just think of
(39:54):
those emotions tied to that.
That was kind of a littlethought that came to me is tying
that emotional part of thebrain to unkindness.
But if we can stop, then we'remuch more on a better trajectory
anyway, with kindness andgratitude.
So thank you.
Yeah, julie, thanks again,thanks.
We appreciate you taking timeto share so many helpful tips
(40:16):
and tools with our listenerstoday.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me, it wasfun.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
And we'll see you around the Gottman site, Julie,
I hope.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Yes, yeah, I just want to put a little plug in for
our listeners and maybe we'llput some links to these, some of
the articles and things thatyou have done, julie.
I think it's been very helpfulover the years.
So appreciate that all you havedone and that does it for us,
our friends.
Thanks so much for tuning in toanother episode of Stronger
Marriage Connection.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yep and remember, it's the small and simple things
that create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take good care of yourself andeach other.
Bye-bye now.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(41:19):
Stronger Marriage Live, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(41:40):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(42:04):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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