March 17, 2025 • 44 mins
Dr. Liz and Dr. Dave welcome Dr. Janet Erickson to discuss the profound impact of marriage on children and families, exploring how parental relationships shape child development and identity formation.
• Strong marriages create a sense of wholeness, identity, and belonging for children
• Research consistently shows divorce has significant impacts on children of all ages
• Children of divorce often face existential questions about their identity and place
• Adult children of divorce can overcome challenges by witnessing healthy marriage models
• A "good enough" marriage is worth fighting for, though abusive relationships warrant separation
• Marriage involves a journey from "loving without knowing" to "being seen, known, and loved"
• Maintaining family rituals provides stability during transitions
• Personal growth and self-awareness are crucial for healthy relationships
• Happiness ultimately comes from deep connection with others
"We are relational beings and relationships are worth it, and this is the essence of life. Happiness is love full stop, and our ability to love and to be in loving relationships is worth the growth. It will take growth. It's going to take change in all of us, but that's what we're born for. It's what we desire more than anything."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
On today's episode.
Dr Liz and I welcome Dr JanetErickson to the show.
We discuss the importance ofstrong marriages for children
and even the impacts of highconflict, abuse and divorce on
both adults and children.
She shares several insightsabout ways to strengthen
marriage and the power of beingseen, known and loved.
(00:25):
Janet Jacob Erickson is anassociate professor in religious
education at Brigham YoungUniversity, where she teaches
the Eternal Family course, aswell as the Introduction to
Family Process courses for theSchool of Family Life.
She received a PhD in familysocial science from the
University of Minnesota aftercompleting a bachelor's degree
in nursing and a master's degreein linguistics at BYU.
(00:48):
She's a research fellow of boththe BYU Wheatley Institute and
the Institute for Family Studiesand has been a columnist on
family issues for the DeseretNews since 2013.
She miraculously met andmarried her husband, michael,
when they were both 34 years old.
When they are blessed withchildren LaDawn, now age 14, and
(01:09):
Peter, now age 12,.
She left her position at BYU inthe School of Family Life After
10 years.
She returned to BYU inreligious education and has been
there since 2021.
We hope you enjoy the show 2021.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
We hope you enjoy the show.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection.
I'm psychologist, dr Liz Hale,along with the esteemed
professor Dr Dave Schramm, andtogether we have dedicated our
life's work to bringing you thebest we have in valid marital
research, along with a few tipsand tools to help you create the
marriage of your dreams.
You know as a marriage, alongwith a few tips and tools to
help you create the marriage ofyour dreams, you know as a
(01:47):
marriage therapist for a fewdecades.
Now, it's not uncommon to sitwith a couple as they
contemplate whether they canmuster enough friendship and
reparative work to stay marriedfor the sake of the children.
Well, the answer to thatquestion is really different for
everyone.
In my experience thus far, somechose to stay married until the
youngest child left home forcollege.
(02:08):
Others decided to end theirmarriage without the weight and
focused on being good co-parents.
Yet still another group decidedto stay married for the sake of
the children and are stillmarried even though their
children now have children oftheir own.
That last group actually is agreat example of how those
marriages actually improvedsimply with the passing of time.
(02:28):
Well, dave, we are reallypleased that social scientist
and associate professor Dr JanetErickson is joining us today to
discuss the effect thatmarriage has on children and on
the family as a whole.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection, janet.
It's wonderful to be here,Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Thank you both for the work you do.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Such a treat.
Likewise, you are an expert onfamily life really, both
professionally and personally, Iwould say, as you were raised
in a family of one of 11.
What number in the lineup areyou?
I'm right in the middle, numberfive.
Wow, and how did that familylife inspire you in the work
that you're doing today?
Yeah, I bet you reflected onthat a fair amount.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
I feel like as a child I would go around thinking
, oh, analyzing what was goingon and not realizing that I was
going to end up studying thatbecause I did something
different before.
But it has been powerful to beup close, first of all, to have
so many siblings and be soengaged in family life.
Just caring for youngersiblings and being cared for by
(03:32):
older siblings, but thenwatching them grow and have
marriages, and us coming fromthe same family but different
dynamics emerging in theirfamilies.
Yeah, it's a gift.
It's a gift to be that close toso many families.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And has everyone had a successful marriage?
Do you mind if I ask there havebeen some bumps, been some
divorces, one of 11.
That's a lot of people to study.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yes, no, and there have been a couple of divorces,
experiences with abuse in family, experiences where marriages
have gotten better, um, awidowed sister whose husband
passed away, so a range ofthings.
Who's now raising her childrenalone, right?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
ah, and that's that's really lovely.
Well, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Inside scoop in your life a little bit yeah jenna the
, we know from the researchright that marriage affects
children in profound ways.
I think about my parents andhow much their marriage has
impacted us as children.
They have a strong, strongmarriage going strong still
today.
Tell us a little bit about theresearch about the ways that
(04:39):
marriages affect children, childdevelopment, even today.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah, it's pretty remarkable that just in the last
year there's been more researchconfirming our decades of
experimenting with divorce.
So my husband's parentsdivorced at the height of the
divorce revolution in 1981.
And as you know so well, we sawdivorce really spike across the
80s, 70s and 80s and that hastapered down, but you would
(05:06):
think well, and 80s, and thathas kind of tapered down but you
would think well, with all ofthat maybe it doesn't make that
big of a difference anymorebecause so many people have
experienced divorce.
But pretty remarkable thatMelissa Carney would release her
book the Two-Parent Privilegein the last year and decades of
research confirming for her as a.
I think she would see herselfas a progressive caller, not a
(05:28):
conservative mind, but sayingwhen we look at this data we
cannot deny that this foundationof marriage in a child's life
is the most important foundationfor their development.
And obviously some are more atrisk.
We have way high divorce ratesamong our working class families
.
We have much lower divorcerates among educated, religious
(05:52):
communities.
But whether it's a childexperiencing it in a community
that is underprivileged, a lotof difficult risks there, fewer
risks for those in moreprivileged backgrounds, but it's
still hard on kids and that'swhat she shows.
So we just can't deny it's abig deal in a child's life.
(06:13):
I might give an example that'sbeen powerful to share with
students.
I have a beloved family member,10-year-old boy, whose parents
announced that they would begetting divorced and from my
experience this divorce willactually better his life.
It's been an abusive dynamic.
He will have a more stableenvironment.
He will be able todifferentiate a family that's
(06:36):
stable and peaceful and lovingfrom a different dynamic and
that will help him.
But after they announced it, hewrote in his journal.
He writes in his journal onSunday nights and he drew a
picture and it was a heart andit had a ruptured line down the
middle and on one side he hadmom and one side he had dad and
(06:59):
of course the heart was his ownheart and all around it he had
these questions.
It was like I was readingresearch, because we know that
when a child experiences divorce, there's like an existential
reality that they have to dealwith.
And so he had questions likewhere do I go?
Who am I?
(07:19):
How will this be better?
These big questions.
It reminded me of my husband'sjourney as a young adult.
His parents divorced when hewas young, but he said as a
young adult this question wouldcome to his mind If they were
not meant to be.
Was I meant to be?
Because you are their union.
(07:42):
You're physically theembodiment of their union and I
think at the core there is somerupture.
That happens.
That's sort of beyond thematerial effects, which are real
meaning money's a big deal andhaving the resources we know two
parents help a lot in the bigbig job of raising a child.
(08:05):
But even apart from thoserealities which are big, is just
what internally happens in thecore of a person who is made up
of two people and, when they areseparated, what that means in
their life.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
What that means about them.
I wouldn't have thought aboutthat.
What it means about them.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, like Mike's question, right, was I meant to
be?
Who am I If they are nottogether?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, what?
What is it?
Tell us a little bit more.
I mean, do you have insightsinto what is it?
I mean, there's economic right,benefits and those we talked
about of a marriage, but of amarriage.
But what does a healthy, strongmarriage do for children?
What they see, what theyexperience, what they hear?
(08:54):
Have we been able to find out?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
hey, what is it specifically that yeah, isn't
that just such a powerfulquestion?
Because you're right, I mean,melissa Carney's economist is
going to be like there's a lotof resources going on when you
have two people investedtogether in people that are
related to them, right, there'sthis deep motivation to care for
them.
So they bring their time andtalents and money and they pull
(09:15):
it together for these people.
But you're asking, dave, aboutsomething else, I think, and
it's that it feels like.
So when Elizabeth Markhart didher interviews of adult children
who had experienced a divorcewith their parents younger she
also had she said the word thatkept coming up in these
interviews was exile, and it wascapturing the sense that there
(09:40):
isn't a home.
So they're having to traversetwo worlds and to choose one can
feel like it's to leave theother, and so I think what
parents are doing is they'repulling together two worlds into
one and when they're apart,that child has to traverse those
(10:02):
worlds themselves.
And so my husband.
He'd have different books athis mom's house and different
toys and different activities,and he had a different world at
his dad's house and he spenttime with both really valuable,
but he had to traverse thoseworlds.
That was not done for him.
And so there's like a unity, awholeness that happens when
(10:25):
parents are married.
That is a wholeness fordevelopment, a wholeness for
identity, a wholeness forbelonging, a wholeness for a
sense of home.
And so I think there'ssomething powerful that happens
when a man and a woman, withtheir distinct psychological
orientations, their distinctways of talking, even their
(10:48):
voice and body size, and all ofthose things, pull a world
together that then a child comesfrom.
That is a wholeness.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, that's fascinating, just that picture
of your 10-year-old and yourfamily with that, you know, line
, jagged line drawn down thecenter.
It's just really telling.
It's compelling and tellingabout what goes on inside the
heart and the mind of a child.
(11:18):
What are your thoughts, janet,about an unhappily married
couple kind of how we startedout at the top of our interview
choosing to stay together forthe sake of their children and I
know that's kind of a loadedtopic.
So much variety to thatsituation.
But do you have some thoughtsjust off the top of your head
Not that you haven't thoughtabout this before, I'm sure in
your research, but where do wego?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
You know it's so interesting because this takes
me back to working with BillDoherty at the University of
Minnesota.
He was my advisor and Bill, ofcourse, started his career and
he would say in the 1970s when Istarted to get my PhD in
marriage family therapy,everybody thought divorce was
like a bad cold in a kid's life.
It would be painful, difficult,distressing.
(11:59):
They would get over it.
And then he watched as scholarslike Sarah McClanahan and
others who and Sarah McClanahan,really experienced her own
divorce, she set out at UT,getting her PhD to prove this
was not going to be devastatingin kids' lives, that what was
most important is that thecouple was really happily
married and if they weren't,then it would be better for a
(12:23):
child to not be in that marriage.
And so I think when she saw thedata decades into this has to
speak before the Senate aboutwhat the implications of divorce
are in children's lives, sheherself was like this is not
what we thought.
And Bill would say that meantwhere the orientation had been
(12:46):
from a therapeutic mindset ifyou're unhappy, let's get you
out of whatever painfulsituation you're in because you
should be happy shifted for himto, I think, a mindset that
would say a good enough marriageis worth fighting for.
A good enough marriage is worthfighting for Because adults are
(13:11):
.
We all know this.
We're struggling ourselves tolearn what it means to be true
to another person, to beselfless but also honest with
ourselves and just the wholeright.
Self other dynamic, and mostmarriages, self-other dynamic
and most marriages, I think, aregoing to have dips and we know
this.
They're going to be thisdevelopmental process for the
(13:34):
adults in it.
It's the most powerful way foradults to grow themselves is to
be in that kind of closerelationship with another person
and I think Bill would say it'sworth working toward Now.
If it's abusive, that is not ahealthy dynamic and there's many
women who are.
They stay in marriages that arebad.
They don't know how to get out,they fear being right,
(13:57):
independent, and the same couldbe true for men.
They need support to know it'sgoing to be okay and that you
getting healthy and yourchildren in a safe environment
is what you're working toward.
But if and that takes a lot ofcourage but if it's a dynamic
where we're like you know,there's probably some things I
(14:19):
can work on as a person to helpthis be a happier space, it is
worth.
It is worth fighting for that.
It is worth going for help.
It's worth giving your life totrying to create a stronger
marriage.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
It's worth that.
Look in the mirror right, thatlong, steady study of what part
of this belongs to me.
Is it I, is it me?
And that's really well said.
And that word abuse, dave andJanet, we know that it gets
overused too right?
I hear it every dayinappropriately and so that gets
a little tricky too, like, well, he is abusive or you know she
(14:55):
is, her words are abusive.
It's tough to to reallyunderstand and investigate what
does that word really mean?
Just a thought, by chance,janet, on abuse and how to
differentiate seriousness.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah, that's a really powerful question.
I think there's a statementfrom a church leader actually
that I have found helpful andthere is irreparable harm being
done to the human dignity ofanother person and those are
serious kinds of definitions,right, and I think I can say
from my own family's experiencethat when that's going on and
someone courageously leaves thatmarriage, it does improve life
(16:04):
for those children.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
It's so hopeful, isn't it Just so hopeful?
I know there's a lot oflisteners tuning in who've just
felt so discouraged because theyare looking at divorce or have
been divorced, and it'supsetting.
When they really could not havehelped it, there was no other
choice and for some I really dobelieve that.
So lovely, thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, let's take a deeper dive, if you will, even
just for a minute on.
We know the all kinds ofpositive effects of a healthy,
stable marriage on children.
Flipping that script a littlebit the effects of unhealthy
conflict over months, even years, on children.
What does some of the researchsuggest about staying in
(16:50):
marriages where it's not healthy, not only for the partner or
the spouse, but kind of thatspillover effect onto the
children?
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Yeah.
So it's interesting.
You know the idea of trauma andkind of even low-grade trauma
in a person's life and thephysical implications.
So I think with young childrenwe'll see like physical
anxieties, physical tics if youwill, ways of coping that are
unhealthy patterns.
But then I think that insecureenvironment it's interesting.
(17:21):
When Mike and I have conflictour children are pretty
strong-willed but when they seeconflict between us they become
very sober.
It's like that is the threat tothem.
There is nothing that is morethreatening to their sense of
self than our conflict is nothonored and they are mistreated
(17:58):
and abused.
Then what that would mean to achild's sense of self, sense of
safety, confidence that they cannavigate the world, and then
the development of copingmechanisms to just function in
that world that tend to be veryunhealthy and I think that it
helps us explain why divorce canperpetuate intergenerationally.
You can develop very unhealthycoping mechanisms that aren't
healthy individuallydevelopmentally just to like
(18:21):
deal with parents' conflict,whether I quiet down or whether
I over function or whether Iright, and those become patterns
we take into laterrelationships that they have to
be healed.
And so I think children canwhether that's escaping into
other kinds of things to dealwith the conflict, whether it's
hiding or right in some way, notbeing able to fully develop
(18:45):
because they can't, in atraumatic, if you will, what
feels traumatic to themenvironment.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, it reminds me of some of the the research as a
graduate student I say.
I got my phd auburn universityso I studied with uh for a time
with dr mona l shake, and theeffects of uh, just listening to
conflict, parental conflict onchildren's sleep, uh, sleep
patterns and how disruptive thatwas, which then affected their
immune system, their digestivesystem and, anyway, the effects
(19:17):
on their bodies because of howit affected their sleep patterns
.
So all kinds of effects.
Now I want to be careful herebecause of course we don't want
to shame anybody, shamingparents for arguing in front of
their kids, or some parents,like Liz said, they don't have
any control.
Yeah, someone did something,they made choices and I get the
(19:39):
brunt end of this and I had zero.
I wanted to stay married,wanted this to work out, but end
up on that harsh reality attimes Are there kind of the
spillover effects of, well,first, the spillover effects of
children experiencing divorce.
But how can that be mitigated?
I guess?
Are there some positive thingsthat parents can do?
(20:01):
Maybe going through thatdivorce and the process, the
aftermath kind of through that,especially, a parent is going to
be stressed out, they're goingto be worrying about their own
struggles.
How can they focus on the kids?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
if you will, yeah, no , it's such an important
question, right?
Because you're dealing withyour own healing and trauma,
whatever that might be.
And how do you meet these kids'needs?
And you know they need me somuch and I want to create a
stable environment and it's beenstripped from me.
This is what I think is sopowerful, and I take it back to
(20:34):
mother-infant bond.
This is so interesting becausewhen an infant is born, they
have to bond with someone thatthey find reliable and
consistent and sensitive.
We know that developmentdepends on it.
The brain literally dependsupon that relationship eye to
eye, body to body and so themother is regulating the
emotions for that infant.
(20:55):
That's what we can see is nowhappening.
An infant can't regulatethemselves, so that attachment
figure, typically the mother isregulating them, and so it's
interesting to think of thatprinciple, as you're in
situations like this, and so Iwould say the truth is, whenever
a parent becomes healthy amother or a father a parent
(21:18):
becomes healthy a mother or afather when they do what is
needed to become a healthyperson, when they understand
identity and boundaries and allof the principles that would be
powerful in them becominghealthy, their children become
healthier, and what a mother isdoing in a situation like that,
or a father is they're saying wecan do difficult things, we can
go through challenging thingsand learn from them and grow
(21:41):
from them, and I will be herethrough it all and we can
process it together.
I don't think bringing indifficult things.
That's why I think criticism ofa spouse is always hard for
kids, right?
Negativity about a spouse isalways going to be hard, but we
can process difficult thingstogether and we can find health
and healing through the emotionregulation that happened when
(22:05):
you were an infant and we'regoing to be regulating this
together.
So I think that that principleof whenever a parent gets
healthy, even if their childrenare adult children, it is a
better thing for their children.
Whenever I grow as an adult tobecoming more able to be in
(22:26):
relationship in healthy ways, Iimprove things for my children
and so there's just strongmotivation to find grounding
myself when the ground has movedand I don't know where it is,
to find grounding in God, inothers, in community and seek
healing, and it will improvelife for my children.
That's just inherent to it.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, it's a powerful message.
Yeah, thank you.
We'll be right back after thisbrief message and we're back,
let's dive right in.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
We typically, I think , when we think about outcomes
of divorce, think about theyounger children.
But what about the effects,Janet, on older children when
their parents go through what weoften call gray divorce after
many years of marriage?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, yeah, this is really interesting, right?
Because you think, oh, they'reestablished as a person, this
won't have any impact on them,but it does.
We know it does.
They now are in that situationwhere they're having to pull the
worlds together and even ifthey're with their own children,
when they go to grandma's, it'snot going to grandpa's and that
(23:44):
division is just a reality.
That's going to impact many,many aspects of their lives.
Rituals, christmas and Easterand All of these things impact
weddings of children and I thinktalking through that is really
important.
But I think, as you were askingthat previous question too, I
(24:06):
was thinking I used to teach aclass on the importance of
rituals and routines in familylife.
Rituals are our sociology termfor traditions.
We typically write birthdaytraditions and Sunday traditions
and write family life.
Rituals are our sociology termfor traditions.
We typically write birthdaytraditions and Sunday traditions
and write family trips.
And one thing I know that we cansee in the research is when a
parent is able to maintain thoserituals.
(24:27):
So for a mother who's goingthrough divorce, with younger
children it's maintaining dinnerand it's maintaining cuddling
time on the bed.
Dad's not there anymore, but wedo these things and it tells me
in Sunday rituals and it tellsme we're still a family and
things are stable here, and Ithink that that's the same with
(24:48):
adult children.
So to the degree that we canmaintain kind of stable rituals
of connection, our Christmastraditions are and it gives a
sense that like we're stilltogether, even if we it looks a
little bit different in how wenavigate that there's still
parts of us intact, right, veryintact Parts of us intact.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yes, oh, I know that research shows that if our
parents divorce, we have agreater chance of divorcing
ourselves.
Is there any way for adultchildren of divorce to lessen
the effects of parental divorcein their own lives?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, I love this.
So this is my husband right,and I can say right off that one
of the things early in ourmarriage he would say it helped
him so much to see strongmarriages.
So his parents divorced.
We were late 34 when we gotmarried but he had like a
13-year period where he had goodfriends that he watched in
(25:48):
beautiful marriages and theirfamily and it's really important
, I think, for us to see andknow this is possible and this
is what it looks like, becausethis is interesting.
When we would struggle early inour marriage around whatever
kind of little thing, he wasmuch more likely to go to a
thought that like this might end.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah yeah.
Understandably sure.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Understandably, because even in his mind he's
like I know that's not going tohappen.
It's like those early thatearly trauma is, is right in in
the brain, in that limbic brain,and so when you think there's
conflict, that that go to and Iwould be like what are you even
talking about?
My parents have been married 56years.
I watched lots of traversing ofdifficult things and complex
(26:37):
things.
I had no fear at all.
But when a person who fears thatthat limbic mind operates that
way, then they're going to wantto jump out and head well, I'm
going to make sure I'm safe.
That means parting from you,and so it's just a blessing to
have someone say nothing's goingwrong here.
Like we're in this, we're inthis for the long haul, we can
(26:58):
figure this out.
This is part of growing up, andit feels like sometimes those
that experience divorce are evenmore aware of like I want to
hold on to this, I want to dowhat it takes to be strong.
But they need to bestrengthened in the confidence
that they can, that you can, andthere is that limbic mind
(27:19):
that's going to tell you this iswhat's going to happen.
You don't have to go to thatspace because we're rewiring
attachment in this securerelationship and it's going to
be secure and it'll be okay.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
I don't know if that makes sense so beautiful, it's
so nice that you could be thatreassuring voice.
It's got to be really hard whenboth partners have that
amygdala going crazy right Like,get out, get out.
This is not safe and I see thatoftentimes in marital therapy
and I guess that's where thevoice maybe of a therapist can
come in and say you know what wecan get through this.
I don't see a reason why we'dhave to go to divorce.
(27:51):
That'll be up to you.
But let's talk about a fewthings that can really make a
difference here.
Just that reassurance.
I love that your husband wouldlook at other couples and
families and just say I wantthat and kind of almost became a
student because of his own lossso much.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
I tell my students your strong marriages or your
family's marriages.
You cannot imagine the positiveimpact that energy has on
others.
And just by people being in thepresence of that they develop a
sense of what is possible andhave hope in it and confidence
in that.
So I do think there's a lot ofpower in just exemplifying
(28:31):
stability right.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Qualifying stability, right?
Yeah, jenna, do you have thesetips or tools for these students
to make it more likely?
Right, they could be thattransitional character that we
talk about, because they hadzero control.
All of us had zero control onwhat happened to us when we were
children, or our parents'marriages.
What can they control now,moving forward to help them have
(28:55):
a stronger marriage so theirchildren will be able to have
that?
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Yeah, such a powerful question, Dave.
So I know you've done work withJason Carroll on this, but it's
pretty amazing when I talk to agroup of students I ask them
what's the rate of divorce,they're like half right, they
think it's a crapshoot, theythink that like I don't have
control over this and I'm justgoing to enter into this and
(29:19):
50-50 chance I end up sad, youknow, and I think then when I
tell them, actually the datasuggests very different risk,
like unbelievably, like from 10%to 70%, based on what you do
right now with things that arein your control, like sexual
(29:41):
partnership before marriage,right and commitment in the
dating relationship, andreligiosity is a powerful thing,
and becoming educated and nothaving children before you get
married and not having childrenbefore you get married and these
factors that are so education,religion, not being a teen when
(30:01):
you get married, not havingchildren before marriage, the
number of sexual partners theseare big deals.
These are things we get controlover for the most part and it
decreases the rate of divorceliterally to like 10%.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
No kidding, great that's so encouraging.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
That's how dramatic right those like pathways into
marriage are.
But then I think too, when youthink about, as a person, what
can I do?
First of all, it's figuring outbeing healthy myself, because
you know what happens as a humanbeing is, we're like I'm just
going to earn my sense of selfthrough others, and so I get
(30:41):
married and like, naturally, youhave this very like enmeshed
dynamic.
That's the beginnings ofmarriage, where, like you are my
world and if you're unhappywith me, then everything's
unhappy and right and you getkind of unhealthy ways of using
one another.
And so I talked to them quite abit about what it means to be
grounded as an individual, inyour sense of self and identity
(31:02):
and knowing how to navigateconflict from a place of
differentiation or being able tosay right, this is my feeling,
this is yours.
How can we work together aspartners to create something
beautiful?
How can we work together aspartners to create something
beautiful?
And the power in that growthand learning how to do that,
(31:23):
beyond those sort offoundational pieces that get you
into the marriage, is havingconfidence that nothing's going
wrong when things are hard.
This is really pushing me tofigure out my grounding as an
individual, my capacity to trulylove and not use someone as my
own source of validation, wherewe get all tangled up in falsely
relating to each other, andthat's a beautiful process of
(31:46):
development for everybody.
Everybody's doing that,regardless of the healthy
marriage you came from.
You're all growing in that way.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I'm so curious, dave and Jenna, both about the good
enough marriage.
Are there any?
Just a couple of bullet pointsabout a good enough marriage, of
how sometimes we just don'teven recognize it right?
We think it's just soproblematic to have a season of
difficulty or to be upset witheach other or discouraged or
feel a little like, oh gosh, myhusband doesn't treat me that
(32:16):
way, the way my friend's husbanddoes on social media.
I don't see that Right.
We can easily just getdiscouraged in our own heads.
Yes, with a good enoughmarriage, it's interesting,
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
That in our world, liz, like this social media
world that I think is very quickto like, there's just really
quick judgments in the sensethat, like, happiness is
something I can get quickly, itis something I can get quickly,
it's something I should have,other people have it and it's
just a flip of what actuallyleads to happiness.
Because we're going to find outright that, a happy marriage,
(32:51):
I'll show my students a pictureof a couple that's older,
president and Sister Hinckley,of a couple that's older
President and Sister Hinckley.
He says in this powerfulstatement he'll say the girl as
she passes away, the girl of mydreams as a child, has once
again become the girl of mydreams.
And here's this old couple,wrinkles everywhere and to see
the love they have for oneanother.
(33:12):
Now, that's so much more thanthat happily married couple on
their wedding day.
Like the love is unspeakablydifferent.
The layers of it are so deepbecause of the difficulties they
have traversed together andhung on to each other in it.
(33:33):
I just had a student reach out.
She's like they've been marriedeight months or something and
she said I don't know how tolove my husband and I was like,
oh, that is right, I'm sure.
For her it's like.
So I said, do you know whathappens in marriage?
You enter marriage and you lovewithout knowing.
That's part of being in love.
Like, you love without knowing.
You're best to know, but you,like, are compelled by dopamine
(33:55):
to just center in on this person, obscure anything, dopamine to
just center in on this person,obscure anything, and you love
without knowing.
And then, within a short time,you're knowing and you're not
sure you love.
You're just seeing all thisstuff that like what.
This isn't what I thought andyou could be like something's
(34:16):
wrong.
But you're actually in thisvery natural process of like,
now you're seeing and so it'smaking you insecure because it's
things that are fearful to youor you don't know what to do
with, or their differences.
But where you're headed isintimacy, and intimacy is seeing
and knowing and loving, andbeing seen and being known and
(34:41):
being loved.
It wasn't about falling in love.
That's not where we're headed.
We're headed to something muchdeeper and that means you're
going to traverse a processwhere those things fill out of
balance.
And so I told her you keepgoing on dates and you keep
having rituals at night, whetherit's ice cream or pillow talk,
(35:01):
where you're talking to eachother and you keep doing these
same little things all the waythroughout, while you're in this
process of knowing withoutloving, and I promise you, if
you're faithful to each other,you're going to get that deep
place of seeing and knowing andloving, and it's worth
everything.
It's just worth everything.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I love how you laid that out.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, that's powerful , beautiful, thank you.
We'd like to ask all of ourguests, janet, a couple of
questions.
The first one, in honor of thename of our podcast, stronger
Marriage Connection is what doyou feel like is a key and
there's all kinds of keys, right, so I don't know if it's the
key, but is there a key that youfeel is critical for a stronger
(35:48):
marriage connection?
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yeah, I love.
You know Gottman's going to sayfriendship is the core, like
when you're building friendship.
But sometimes you're like, howdo I build friendship?
Like I'm not sure I like thisperson right, and so I think
those little things that we do,those rituals of connection, the
willingness to spend time anddo that, matters.
Now, having said that, I thinkwe can be like attachment
(36:11):
oriented and, you know, try tohave good communication and that
might miss the side that I wastalking to my husband about this
morning, which is the humannature, is to like, judge
another person and be blind toourselves and it's sort of the
other where it's like I try tosee in myself and I try not to
(36:32):
be afraid of seeing in myselfwhere I contribute to
difficulties in thisrelationship.
And then I look with compassionon my spouse.
I see their troubles as kind ofan expression of woundedness,
of the need for growth.
I'm more honest with myselfbecause I want to be tough in
learning the things that willhelp me to have a deep
(36:55):
relationship.
But it's so natural for the egoto be like you're the problem
and you're the.
That's why, you know, therapistswill say what's the most
important trait before you getmarried the ability to
self-confront.
We want to look for someone whohas the ability to look at
themselves and be honest withthemselves and honest with you,
(37:15):
and if you have that, you dothat, they do that.
There's nothing that can stopit from going to a place of
intimacy, because it's based infaith and not fear.
It's like I want to grow, youwant to grow, help me see myself
, and that's what I care about.
Rather than it being easy andpleasurable, I want to grow with
(37:37):
you.
That's what we got into thisfor.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Indeed, we did.
Oh, so much good information.
Is there a question we haven'tasked you that you were hoping
we'd bring up, or anything as wewrap up towards the end of our
interview today?
It's been so fabulous.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Oh, just grateful for the work that you do for caring
about it.
I think when that 75-year studycame out of Harvard that said
happiness is love, full stop.
After 75 years, what is it thatshapes human well-being that we
just have to deeply realize?
We are relational people and weneed relationships, and we need
(38:17):
strong relationships, and theywill always be difficult.
They will always be difficultbecause we're different, but it
is worth it because this is whowe are.
We are designed for love.
We are designed for deepconnection and relationship.
So that's where we're headedand it's worth all the effort to
(38:42):
create strong relationships inour lives.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
That's wonderful.
Where can our listeners,viewers, all of us, find out
more about you and your research, please?
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Oh well, I wish I had something more concrete to
offer, but I have my Vita onlineand a couple of talks that I
have given that, I think,capture this idea.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Powerful talks, I might add Great Thank you.
So just Google your name.
That's right, We'll put links.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, we'll find out your, we'll make it easy for
listeners and we'll get directlinks to that and we'll put it
in the show notes there, janet.
So well, another question wewant to ask we ask all of our
listeners is as a takeaway ofthe day, is there a take home
message that you want ourlisteners to remember from our
discussion today?
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Yeah, I think we are relational beings and
relationships are worth it, andthis is the essence of life.
Happiness is love full stop,and our ability to love and to
be in loving relationships isworth the growth.
It will take growth.
It's going to take change inall of us, but that's what we're
(39:55):
born for.
It's what we desire more thananything, but that's what we're
born for.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
It's what we desire more than anything.
Wow, yeah, very powerful.
Thank you, liz.
What about you?
What's your take of the take somany have?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
all these copious notes that now I can't even read
.
Um, you know I love, uh, jenna.
Just a reminder to couples thatthese relationships, they will
always be be difficult becausewe're different, but we were
designed for love and deepconnection.
Just made my day to rememberthat it's beautiful.
(40:26):
And what about you, dave?
What's the richest nugget youhope we all remember from our
time together today with DrJanet Erickson?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, this has been really powerful.
Thank you so much.
I have a lot to reflect on.
I'm going to go back and listenand tell these great words of
wisdom Kind of a message isespecially towards the beginning
.
It was this happy, healthy.
We starts with a happy, healthyme Making sure that I'm in a
good place.
I call it search inward andthen turn outward.
(40:56):
Not in a selfish way about mefirst, but it really is me
making sure that I'm okay, thatI'm good, whether I've
experienced trauma or parents,divorce or other struggles in
life.
Making sure that I'm groundedand I'm okay, and then I can
turn outward and help and lift.
And then the ability I thinkyou talked about being seen,
(41:17):
being known and being loved.
Did I get those three?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
That was powerful, great Thank you, wow.
Well, thanks again, dr Erickson, for making time to coming on
and sharing so much wisdom,thoughts, principles and tips
for us here on the StrongerMarriage Connection.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Thank you and for coming on.
Thank you and really that's theonly way we're ever going to
feel seen and believe we'reloved.
Right Is if we're seen andknown.
Dave and Janet, it's sopowerful to me.
If you don't know me, if youtell me you love me, it's like
yeah, but if you really knew me,I've got the secret back here.
But when you live with partsand you tell me you love me,
it's like there.
(41:59):
It doesn't get much better thanthat because you know yeah,
yeah, because you'll love thisquote from it's tim keller.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
He was like a protestant marriage family
therapist, but um, he says to beloved but not known is
comforting but superficial.
I think my kids feel that.
For me, sometimes, when he saysto be known but not loved,
that's our greatest fear.
But to be truly known and trulyloved is well.
(42:32):
He says a lot like being lovedby God.
It's what we need more thananything.
By God, it's what we need morethan anything.
But what a process, right?
Because I'm sometimes scared tosee my kids truth be told.
I'm not sure I want to know you, I just want you to be my
picture and I'm going to tellyou that I love you and vice
versa.
Right, but that's actually notwhat we need and yearn for.
(42:54):
We yearn to be seen and lovedand known and that's what allows
us to love and see and know.
Right, that's heaven.
That's what heaven is.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, it's about connections, relationships, wow.
Well, that does it for us, ourlisteners.
Thank you so much for tuning inand we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
And remember, dear friends, it's the small things
that create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take care now.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram,
(43:45):
at Stronger Marriage Live, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(44:11):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
On today's episode.
Dr Liz and I welcome Dr JanetErickson to the show.
We discuss the importance ofstrong marriages for children
and even the impacts of highconflict, abuse and divorce on
both adults and children.
She shares several insightsabout ways to strengthen
marriage and the power of beingseen, known and loved.
(00:25):
Janet Jacob Erickson is anassociate professor in religious
education at Brigham YoungUniversity, where she teaches
the Eternal Family course, aswell as the Introduction to
Family Process courses for theSchool of Family Life.
She received a PhD in familysocial science from the
University of Minnesota aftercompleting a bachelor's degree
in nursing and a master's degreein linguistics at BYU.
(00:48):
She's a research fellow of boththe BYU Wheatley Institute and
the Institute for Family Studiesand has been a columnist on
family issues for the DeseretNews since 2013.
She miraculously met andmarried her husband, michael,
when they were both 34 years old.
When they are blessed withchildren LaDawn, now age 14, and
(01:09):
Peter, now age 12,.
She left her position at BYU inthe School of Family Life After
10 years.
She returned to BYU inreligious education and has been
there since 2021.
We hope you enjoy the show 2021.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
We hope you enjoy the show.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection.
I'm psychologist, dr Liz Hale,along with the esteemed
professor Dr Dave Schramm, andtogether we have dedicated our
life's work to bringing you thebest we have in valid marital
research, along with a few tipsand tools to help you create the
marriage of your dreams.
You know as a marriage, alongwith a few tips and tools to
help you create the marriage ofyour dreams, you know as a
(01:47):
marriage therapist for a fewdecades.
Now, it's not uncommon to sitwith a couple as they
contemplate whether they canmuster enough friendship and
reparative work to stay marriedfor the sake of the children.
Well, the answer to thatquestion is really different for
everyone.
In my experience thus far, somechose to stay married until the
youngest child left home forcollege.
(02:08):
Others decided to end theirmarriage without the weight and
focused on being good co-parents.
Yet still another group decidedto stay married for the sake of
the children and are stillmarried even though their
children now have children oftheir own.
That last group actually is agreat example of how those
marriages actually improvedsimply with the passing of time.
(02:28):
Well, dave, we are reallypleased that social scientist
and associate professor Dr JanetErickson is joining us today to
discuss the effect thatmarriage has on children and on
the family as a whole.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection, janet.
It's wonderful to be here,Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Thank you both for the work you do.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Such a treat.
Likewise, you are an expert onfamily life really, both
professionally and personally, Iwould say, as you were raised
in a family of one of 11.
What number in the lineup areyou?
I'm right in the middle, numberfive.
Wow, and how did that familylife inspire you in the work
that you're doing today?
Yeah, I bet you reflected onthat a fair amount.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
I feel like as a child I would go around thinking
, oh, analyzing what was goingon and not realizing that I was
going to end up studying thatbecause I did something
different before.
But it has been powerful to beup close, first of all, to have
so many siblings and be soengaged in family life.
Just caring for youngersiblings and being cared for by
(03:32):
older siblings, but thenwatching them grow and have
marriages, and us coming fromthe same family but different
dynamics emerging in theirfamilies.
Yeah, it's a gift.
It's a gift to be that close toso many families.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And has everyone had a successful marriage?
Do you mind if I ask there havebeen some bumps, been some
divorces, one of 11.
That's a lot of people to study.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yes, no, and there have been a couple of divorces,
experiences with abuse in family, experiences where marriages
have gotten better, um, awidowed sister whose husband
passed away, so a range ofthings.
Who's now raising her childrenalone, right?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
ah, and that's that's really lovely.
Well, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Inside scoop in your life a little bit yeah jenna the
, we know from the researchright that marriage affects
children in profound ways.
I think about my parents andhow much their marriage has
impacted us as children.
They have a strong, strongmarriage going strong still
today.
Tell us a little bit about theresearch about the ways that
(04:39):
marriages affect children, childdevelopment, even today.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah, it's pretty remarkable that just in the last
year there's been more researchconfirming our decades of
experimenting with divorce.
So my husband's parentsdivorced at the height of the
divorce revolution in 1981.
And as you know so well, we sawdivorce really spike across the
80s, 70s and 80s and that hastapered down, but you would
(05:06):
think well, and 80s, and thathas kind of tapered down but you
would think well, with all ofthat maybe it doesn't make that
big of a difference anymorebecause so many people have
experienced divorce.
But pretty remarkable thatMelissa Carney would release her
book the Two-Parent Privilegein the last year and decades of
research confirming for her as a.
I think she would see herselfas a progressive caller, not a
(05:28):
conservative mind, but sayingwhen we look at this data we
cannot deny that this foundationof marriage in a child's life
is the most important foundationfor their development.
And obviously some are more atrisk.
We have way high divorce ratesamong our working class families
.
We have much lower divorcerates among educated, religious
(05:52):
communities.
But whether it's a childexperiencing it in a community
that is underprivileged, a lotof difficult risks there, fewer
risks for those in moreprivileged backgrounds, but it's
still hard on kids and that'swhat she shows.
So we just can't deny it's abig deal in a child's life.
(06:13):
I might give an example that'sbeen powerful to share with
students.
I have a beloved family member,10-year-old boy, whose parents
announced that they would begetting divorced and from my
experience this divorce willactually better his life.
It's been an abusive dynamic.
He will have a more stableenvironment.
He will be able todifferentiate a family that's
(06:36):
stable and peaceful and lovingfrom a different dynamic and
that will help him.
But after they announced it, hewrote in his journal.
He writes in his journal onSunday nights and he drew a
picture and it was a heart andit had a ruptured line down the
middle and on one side he hadmom and one side he had dad and
(06:59):
of course the heart was his ownheart and all around it he had
these questions.
It was like I was readingresearch, because we know that
when a child experiences divorce, there's like an existential
reality that they have to dealwith.
And so he had questions likewhere do I go?
Who am I?
(07:19):
How will this be better?
These big questions.
It reminded me of my husband'sjourney as a young adult.
His parents divorced when hewas young, but he said as a
young adult this question wouldcome to his mind If they were
not meant to be.
Was I meant to be?
Because you are their union.
(07:42):
You're physically theembodiment of their union and I
think at the core there is somerupture.
That happens.
That's sort of beyond thematerial effects, which are real
meaning money's a big deal andhaving the resources we know two
parents help a lot in the bigbig job of raising a child.
(08:05):
But even apart from thoserealities which are big, is just
what internally happens in thecore of a person who is made up
of two people and, when they areseparated, what that means in
their life.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
What that means about them.
I wouldn't have thought aboutthat.
What it means about them.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, like Mike's question, right, was I meant to
be?
Who am I If they are nottogether?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, what?
What is it?
Tell us a little bit more.
I mean, do you have insightsinto what is it?
I mean, there's economic right,benefits and those we talked
about of a marriage, but of amarriage.
But what does a healthy, strongmarriage do for children?
What they see, what theyexperience, what they hear?
(08:54):
Have we been able to find out?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
hey, what is it specifically that yeah, isn't
that just such a powerfulquestion?
Because you're right, I mean,melissa Carney's economist is
going to be like there's a lotof resources going on when you
have two people investedtogether in people that are
related to them, right, there'sthis deep motivation to care for
them.
So they bring their time andtalents and money and they pull
(09:15):
it together for these people.
But you're asking, dave, aboutsomething else, I think, and
it's that it feels like.
So when Elizabeth Markhart didher interviews of adult children
who had experienced a divorcewith their parents younger she
also had she said the word thatkept coming up in these
interviews was exile, and it wascapturing the sense that there
(09:40):
isn't a home.
So they're having to traversetwo worlds and to choose one can
feel like it's to leave theother, and so I think what
parents are doing is they'repulling together two worlds into
one and when they're apart,that child has to traverse those
(10:02):
worlds themselves.
And so my husband.
He'd have different books athis mom's house and different
toys and different activities,and he had a different world at
his dad's house and he spenttime with both really valuable,
but he had to traverse thoseworlds.
That was not done for him.
And so there's like a unity, awholeness that happens when
(10:25):
parents are married.
That is a wholeness fordevelopment, a wholeness for
identity, a wholeness forbelonging, a wholeness for a
sense of home.
And so I think there'ssomething powerful that happens
when a man and a woman, withtheir distinct psychological
orientations, their distinctways of talking, even their
(10:48):
voice and body size, and all ofthose things, pull a world
together that then a child comesfrom.
That is a wholeness.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, that's fascinating, just that picture
of your 10-year-old and yourfamily with that, you know, line
, jagged line drawn down thecenter.
It's just really telling.
It's compelling and tellingabout what goes on inside the
heart and the mind of a child.
(11:18):
What are your thoughts, janet,about an unhappily married
couple kind of how we startedout at the top of our interview
choosing to stay together forthe sake of their children and I
know that's kind of a loadedtopic.
So much variety to thatsituation.
But do you have some thoughtsjust off the top of your head
Not that you haven't thoughtabout this before, I'm sure in
your research, but where do wego?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
You know it's so interesting because this takes
me back to working with BillDoherty at the University of
Minnesota.
He was my advisor and Bill, ofcourse, started his career and
he would say in the 1970s when Istarted to get my PhD in
marriage family therapy,everybody thought divorce was
like a bad cold in a kid's life.
It would be painful, difficult,distressing.
(11:59):
They would get over it.
And then he watched as scholarslike Sarah McClanahan and
others who and Sarah McClanahan,really experienced her own
divorce, she set out at UT,getting her PhD to prove this
was not going to be devastatingin kids' lives, that what was
most important is that thecouple was really happily
married and if they weren't,then it would be better for a
(12:23):
child to not be in that marriage.
And so I think when she saw thedata decades into this has to
speak before the Senate aboutwhat the implications of divorce
are in children's lives, sheherself was like this is not
what we thought.
And Bill would say that meantwhere the orientation had been
(12:46):
from a therapeutic mindset ifyou're unhappy, let's get you
out of whatever painfulsituation you're in because you
should be happy shifted for himto, I think, a mindset that
would say a good enough marriageis worth fighting for.
A good enough marriage is worthfighting for Because adults are
(13:11):
.
We all know this.
We're struggling ourselves tolearn what it means to be true
to another person, to beselfless but also honest with
ourselves and just the wholeright.
Self other dynamic, and mostmarriages, self-other dynamic
and most marriages, I think, aregoing to have dips and we know
this.
They're going to be thisdevelopmental process for the
(13:34):
adults in it.
It's the most powerful way foradults to grow themselves is to
be in that kind of closerelationship with another person
and I think Bill would say it'sworth working toward Now.
If it's abusive, that is not ahealthy dynamic and there's many
women who are.
They stay in marriages that arebad.
They don't know how to get out,they fear being right,
(13:57):
independent, and the same couldbe true for men.
They need support to know it'sgoing to be okay and that you
getting healthy and yourchildren in a safe environment
is what you're working toward.
But if and that takes a lot ofcourage but if it's a dynamic
where we're like you know,there's probably some things I
(14:19):
can work on as a person to helpthis be a happier space, it is
worth.
It is worth fighting for that.
It is worth going for help.
It's worth giving your life totrying to create a stronger
marriage.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
It's worth that.
Look in the mirror right, thatlong, steady study of what part
of this belongs to me.
Is it I, is it me?
And that's really well said.
And that word abuse, dave andJanet, we know that it gets
overused too right?
I hear it every dayinappropriately and so that gets
a little tricky too, like, well, he is abusive or you know she
(14:55):
is, her words are abusive.
It's tough to to reallyunderstand and investigate what
does that word really mean?
Just a thought, by chance,janet, on abuse and how to
differentiate seriousness.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah, that's a really powerful question.
I think there's a statementfrom a church leader actually
that I have found helpful andthere is irreparable harm being
done to the human dignity ofanother person and those are
serious kinds of definitions,right, and I think I can say
from my own family's experiencethat when that's going on and
someone courageously leaves thatmarriage, it does improve life
(16:04):
for those children.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
It's so hopeful, isn't it Just so hopeful?
I know there's a lot oflisteners tuning in who've just
felt so discouraged because theyare looking at divorce or have
been divorced, and it'supsetting.
When they really could not havehelped it, there was no other
choice and for some I really dobelieve that.
So lovely, thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, let's take a deeper dive, if you will, even
just for a minute on.
We know the all kinds ofpositive effects of a healthy,
stable marriage on children.
Flipping that script a littlebit the effects of unhealthy
conflict over months, even years, on children.
What does some of the researchsuggest about staying in
(16:50):
marriages where it's not healthy, not only for the partner or
the spouse, but kind of thatspillover effect onto the
children?
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Yeah.
So it's interesting.
You know the idea of trauma andkind of even low-grade trauma
in a person's life and thephysical implications.
So I think with young childrenwe'll see like physical
anxieties, physical tics if youwill, ways of coping that are
unhealthy patterns.
But then I think that insecureenvironment it's interesting.
(17:21):
When Mike and I have conflictour children are pretty
strong-willed but when they seeconflict between us they become
very sober.
It's like that is the threat tothem.
There is nothing that is morethreatening to their sense of
self than our conflict is nothonored and they are mistreated
(17:58):
and abused.
Then what that would mean to achild's sense of self, sense of
safety, confidence that they cannavigate the world, and then
the development of copingmechanisms to just function in
that world that tend to be veryunhealthy and I think that it
helps us explain why divorce canperpetuate intergenerationally.
You can develop very unhealthycoping mechanisms that aren't
healthy individuallydevelopmentally just to like
(18:21):
deal with parents' conflict,whether I quiet down or whether
I over function or whether Iright, and those become patterns
we take into laterrelationships that they have to
be healed.
And so I think children canwhether that's escaping into
other kinds of things to dealwith the conflict, whether it's
hiding or right in some way, notbeing able to fully develop
(18:45):
because they can't, in atraumatic, if you will, what
feels traumatic to themenvironment.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, it reminds me of some of the the research as a
graduate student I say.
I got my phd auburn universityso I studied with uh for a time
with dr mona l shake, and theeffects of uh, just listening to
conflict, parental conflict onchildren's sleep, uh, sleep
patterns and how disruptive thatwas, which then affected their
immune system, their digestivesystem and, anyway, the effects
(19:17):
on their bodies because of howit affected their sleep patterns
.
So all kinds of effects.
Now I want to be careful herebecause of course we don't want
to shame anybody, shamingparents for arguing in front of
their kids, or some parents,like Liz said, they don't have
any control.
Yeah, someone did something,they made choices and I get the
(19:39):
brunt end of this and I had zero.
I wanted to stay married,wanted this to work out, but end
up on that harsh reality attimes Are there kind of the
spillover effects of, well,first, the spillover effects of
children experiencing divorce.
But how can that be mitigated?
I guess?
Are there some positive thingsthat parents can do?
(20:01):
Maybe going through thatdivorce and the process, the
aftermath kind of through that,especially, a parent is going to
be stressed out, they're goingto be worrying about their own
struggles.
How can they focus on the kids?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
if you will, yeah, no , it's such an important
question, right?
Because you're dealing withyour own healing and trauma,
whatever that might be.
And how do you meet these kids'needs?
And you know they need me somuch and I want to create a
stable environment and it's beenstripped from me.
This is what I think is sopowerful, and I take it back to
(20:34):
mother-infant bond.
This is so interesting becausewhen an infant is born, they
have to bond with someone thatthey find reliable and
consistent and sensitive.
We know that developmentdepends on it.
The brain literally dependsupon that relationship eye to
eye, body to body and so themother is regulating the
emotions for that infant.
(20:55):
That's what we can see is nowhappening.
An infant can't regulatethemselves, so that attachment
figure, typically the mother isregulating them, and so it's
interesting to think of thatprinciple, as you're in
situations like this, and so Iwould say the truth is, whenever
a parent becomes healthy amother or a father a parent
(21:18):
becomes healthy a mother or afather when they do what is
needed to become a healthyperson, when they understand
identity and boundaries and allof the principles that would be
powerful in them becominghealthy, their children become
healthier, and what a mother isdoing in a situation like that,
or a father is they're saying wecan do difficult things, we can
go through challenging thingsand learn from them and grow
(21:41):
from them, and I will be herethrough it all and we can
process it together.
I don't think bringing indifficult things.
That's why I think criticism ofa spouse is always hard for
kids, right?
Negativity about a spouse isalways going to be hard, but we
can process difficult thingstogether and we can find health
and healing through the emotionregulation that happened when
(22:05):
you were an infant and we'regoing to be regulating this
together.
So I think that that principleof whenever a parent gets
healthy, even if their childrenare adult children, it is a
better thing for their children.
Whenever I grow as an adult tobecoming more able to be in
(22:26):
relationship in healthy ways, Iimprove things for my children
and so there's just strongmotivation to find grounding
myself when the ground has movedand I don't know where it is,
to find grounding in God, inothers, in community and seek
healing, and it will improvelife for my children.
That's just inherent to it.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, it's a powerful message.
Yeah, thank you.
We'll be right back after thisbrief message and we're back,
let's dive right in.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
We typically, I think , when we think about outcomes
of divorce, think about theyounger children.
But what about the effects,Janet, on older children when
their parents go through what weoften call gray divorce after
many years of marriage?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, yeah, this is really interesting, right?
Because you think, oh, they'reestablished as a person, this
won't have any impact on them,but it does.
We know it does.
They now are in that situationwhere they're having to pull the
worlds together and even ifthey're with their own children,
when they go to grandma's, it'snot going to grandpa's and that
(23:44):
division is just a reality.
That's going to impact many,many aspects of their lives.
Rituals, christmas and Easterand All of these things impact
weddings of children and I thinktalking through that is really
important.
But I think, as you were askingthat previous question too, I
(24:06):
was thinking I used to teach aclass on the importance of
rituals and routines in familylife.
Rituals are our sociology termfor traditions.
We typically write birthdaytraditions and Sunday traditions
and write family life.
Rituals are our sociology termfor traditions.
We typically write birthdaytraditions and Sunday traditions
and write family trips.
And one thing I know that we cansee in the research is when a
parent is able to maintain thoserituals.
(24:27):
So for a mother who's goingthrough divorce, with younger
children it's maintaining dinnerand it's maintaining cuddling
time on the bed.
Dad's not there anymore, but wedo these things and it tells me
in Sunday rituals and it tellsme we're still a family and
things are stable here, and Ithink that that's the same with
(24:48):
adult children.
So to the degree that we canmaintain kind of stable rituals
of connection, our Christmastraditions are and it gives a
sense that like we're stilltogether, even if we it looks a
little bit different in how wenavigate that there's still
parts of us intact, right, veryintact Parts of us intact.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yes, oh, I know that research shows that if our
parents divorce, we have agreater chance of divorcing
ourselves.
Is there any way for adultchildren of divorce to lessen
the effects of parental divorcein their own lives?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, I love this.
So this is my husband right,and I can say right off that one
of the things early in ourmarriage he would say it helped
him so much to see strongmarriages.
So his parents divorced.
We were late 34 when we gotmarried but he had like a
13-year period where he had goodfriends that he watched in
(25:48):
beautiful marriages and theirfamily and it's really important
, I think, for us to see andknow this is possible and this
is what it looks like, becausethis is interesting.
When we would struggle early inour marriage around whatever
kind of little thing, he wasmuch more likely to go to a
thought that like this might end.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah yeah.
Understandably sure.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Understandably, because even in his mind he's
like I know that's not going tohappen.
It's like those early thatearly trauma is, is right in in
the brain, in that limbic brain,and so when you think there's
conflict, that that go to and Iwould be like what are you even
talking about?
My parents have been married 56years.
I watched lots of traversing ofdifficult things and complex
(26:37):
things.
I had no fear at all.
But when a person who fears thatthat limbic mind operates that
way, then they're going to wantto jump out and head well, I'm
going to make sure I'm safe.
That means parting from you,and so it's just a blessing to
have someone say nothing's goingwrong here.
Like we're in this, we're inthis for the long haul, we can
(26:58):
figure this out.
This is part of growing up, andit feels like sometimes those
that experience divorce are evenmore aware of like I want to
hold on to this, I want to dowhat it takes to be strong.
But they need to bestrengthened in the confidence
that they can, that you can, andthere is that limbic mind
(27:19):
that's going to tell you this iswhat's going to happen.
You don't have to go to thatspace because we're rewiring
attachment in this securerelationship and it's going to
be secure and it'll be okay.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
I don't know if that makes sense so beautiful, it's
so nice that you could be thatreassuring voice.
It's got to be really hard whenboth partners have that
amygdala going crazy right Like,get out, get out.
This is not safe and I see thatoftentimes in marital therapy
and I guess that's where thevoice maybe of a therapist can
come in and say you know what wecan get through this.
I don't see a reason why we'dhave to go to divorce.
(27:51):
That'll be up to you.
But let's talk about a fewthings that can really make a
difference here.
Just that reassurance.
I love that your husband wouldlook at other couples and
families and just say I wantthat and kind of almost became a
student because of his own lossso much.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
I tell my students your strong marriages or your
family's marriages.
You cannot imagine the positiveimpact that energy has on
others.
And just by people being in thepresence of that they develop a
sense of what is possible andhave hope in it and confidence
in that.
So I do think there's a lot ofpower in just exemplifying
(28:31):
stability right.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Qualifying stability, right?
Yeah, jenna, do you have thesetips or tools for these students
to make it more likely?
Right, they could be thattransitional character that we
talk about, because they hadzero control.
All of us had zero control onwhat happened to us when we were
children, or our parents'marriages.
What can they control now,moving forward to help them have
(28:55):
a stronger marriage so theirchildren will be able to have
that?
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Yeah, such a powerful question, Dave.
So I know you've done work withJason Carroll on this, but it's
pretty amazing when I talk to agroup of students I ask them
what's the rate of divorce,they're like half right, they
think it's a crapshoot, theythink that like I don't have
control over this and I'm justgoing to enter into this and
(29:19):
50-50 chance I end up sad, youknow, and I think then when I
tell them, actually the datasuggests very different risk,
like unbelievably, like from 10%to 70%, based on what you do
right now with things that arein your control, like sexual
(29:41):
partnership before marriage,right and commitment in the
dating relationship, andreligiosity is a powerful thing,
and becoming educated and nothaving children before you get
married and not having childrenbefore you get married and these
factors that are so education,religion, not being a teen when
(30:01):
you get married, not havingchildren before marriage, the
number of sexual partners theseare big deals.
These are things we get controlover for the most part and it
decreases the rate of divorceliterally to like 10%.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
No kidding, great that's so encouraging.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
That's how dramatic right those like pathways into
marriage are.
But then I think too, when youthink about, as a person, what
can I do?
First of all, it's figuring outbeing healthy myself, because
you know what happens as a humanbeing is, we're like I'm just
going to earn my sense of selfthrough others, and so I get
(30:41):
married and like, naturally, youhave this very like enmeshed
dynamic.
That's the beginnings ofmarriage, where, like you are my
world and if you're unhappywith me, then everything's
unhappy and right and you getkind of unhealthy ways of using
one another.
And so I talked to them quite abit about what it means to be
grounded as an individual, inyour sense of self and identity
(31:02):
and knowing how to navigateconflict from a place of
differentiation or being able tosay right, this is my feeling,
this is yours.
How can we work together aspartners to create something
beautiful?
How can we work together aspartners to create something
beautiful?
And the power in that growthand learning how to do that,
(31:23):
beyond those sort offoundational pieces that get you
into the marriage, is havingconfidence that nothing's going
wrong when things are hard.
This is really pushing me tofigure out my grounding as an
individual, my capacity to trulylove and not use someone as my
own source of validation, wherewe get all tangled up in falsely
relating to each other, andthat's a beautiful process of
(31:46):
development for everybody.
Everybody's doing that,regardless of the healthy
marriage you came from.
You're all growing in that way.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I'm so curious, dave and Jenna, both about the good
enough marriage.
Are there any?
Just a couple of bullet pointsabout a good enough marriage, of
how sometimes we just don'teven recognize it right?
We think it's just soproblematic to have a season of
difficulty or to be upset witheach other or discouraged or
feel a little like, oh gosh, myhusband doesn't treat me that
(32:16):
way, the way my friend's husbanddoes on social media.
I don't see that Right.
We can easily just getdiscouraged in our own heads.
Yes, with a good enoughmarriage, it's interesting,
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
That in our world, liz, like this social media
world that I think is very quickto like, there's just really
quick judgments in the sensethat, like, happiness is
something I can get quickly, itis something I can get quickly,
it's something I should have,other people have it and it's
just a flip of what actuallyleads to happiness.
Because we're going to find outright that, a happy marriage,
(32:51):
I'll show my students a pictureof a couple that's older,
president and Sister Hinckley,of a couple that's older
President and Sister Hinckley.
He says in this powerfulstatement he'll say the girl as
she passes away, the girl of mydreams as a child, has once
again become the girl of mydreams.
And here's this old couple,wrinkles everywhere and to see
the love they have for oneanother.
(33:12):
Now, that's so much more thanthat happily married couple on
their wedding day.
Like the love is unspeakablydifferent.
The layers of it are so deepbecause of the difficulties they
have traversed together andhung on to each other in it.
(33:33):
I just had a student reach out.
She's like they've been marriedeight months or something and
she said I don't know how tolove my husband and I was like,
oh, that is right, I'm sure.
For her it's like.
So I said, do you know whathappens in marriage?
You enter marriage and you lovewithout knowing.
That's part of being in love.
Like, you love without knowing.
You're best to know, but you,like, are compelled by dopamine
(33:55):
to just center in on this person, obscure anything, dopamine to
just center in on this person,obscure anything, and you love
without knowing.
And then, within a short time,you're knowing and you're not
sure you love.
You're just seeing all thisstuff that like what.
This isn't what I thought andyou could be like something's
(34:16):
wrong.
But you're actually in thisvery natural process of like,
now you're seeing and so it'smaking you insecure because it's
things that are fearful to youor you don't know what to do
with, or their differences.
But where you're headed isintimacy, and intimacy is seeing
and knowing and loving, andbeing seen and being known and
(34:41):
being loved.
It wasn't about falling in love.
That's not where we're headed.
We're headed to something muchdeeper and that means you're
going to traverse a processwhere those things fill out of
balance.
And so I told her you keepgoing on dates and you keep
having rituals at night, whetherit's ice cream or pillow talk,
(35:01):
where you're talking to eachother and you keep doing these
same little things all the waythroughout, while you're in this
process of knowing withoutloving, and I promise you, if
you're faithful to each other,you're going to get that deep
place of seeing and knowing andloving, and it's worth
everything.
It's just worth everything.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I love how you laid that out.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, that's powerful , beautiful, thank you.
We'd like to ask all of ourguests, janet, a couple of
questions.
The first one, in honor of thename of our podcast, stronger
Marriage Connection is what doyou feel like is a key and
there's all kinds of keys, right, so I don't know if it's the
key, but is there a key that youfeel is critical for a stronger
(35:48):
marriage connection?
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yeah, I love.
You know Gottman's going to sayfriendship is the core, like
when you're building friendship.
But sometimes you're like, howdo I build friendship?
Like I'm not sure I like thisperson right, and so I think
those little things that we do,those rituals of connection, the
willingness to spend time anddo that, matters.
Now, having said that, I thinkwe can be like attachment
(36:11):
oriented and, you know, try tohave good communication and that
might miss the side that I wastalking to my husband about this
morning, which is the humannature, is to like, judge
another person and be blind toourselves and it's sort of the
other where it's like I try tosee in myself and I try not to
(36:32):
be afraid of seeing in myselfwhere I contribute to
difficulties in thisrelationship.
And then I look with compassionon my spouse.
I see their troubles as kind ofan expression of woundedness,
of the need for growth.
I'm more honest with myselfbecause I want to be tough in
learning the things that willhelp me to have a deep
(36:55):
relationship.
But it's so natural for the egoto be like you're the problem
and you're the.
That's why, you know, therapistswill say what's the most
important trait before you getmarried the ability to
self-confront.
We want to look for someone whohas the ability to look at
themselves and be honest withthemselves and honest with you,
(37:15):
and if you have that, you dothat, they do that.
There's nothing that can stopit from going to a place of
intimacy, because it's based infaith and not fear.
It's like I want to grow, youwant to grow, help me see myself
, and that's what I care about.
Rather than it being easy andpleasurable, I want to grow with
(37:37):
you.
That's what we got into thisfor.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Indeed, we did.
Oh, so much good information.
Is there a question we haven'tasked you that you were hoping
we'd bring up, or anything as wewrap up towards the end of our
interview today?
It's been so fabulous.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Oh, just grateful for the work that you do for caring
about it.
I think when that 75-year studycame out of Harvard that said
happiness is love, full stop.
After 75 years, what is it thatshapes human well-being that we
just have to deeply realize?
We are relational people and weneed relationships, and we need
(38:17):
strong relationships, and theywill always be difficult.
They will always be difficultbecause we're different, but it
is worth it because this is whowe are.
We are designed for love.
We are designed for deepconnection and relationship.
So that's where we're headedand it's worth all the effort to
(38:42):
create strong relationships inour lives.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
That's wonderful.
Where can our listeners,viewers, all of us, find out
more about you and your research, please?
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Oh well, I wish I had something more concrete to
offer, but I have my Vita onlineand a couple of talks that I
have given that, I think,capture this idea.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Powerful talks, I might add Great Thank you.
So just Google your name.
That's right, We'll put links.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, we'll find out your, we'll make it easy for
listeners and we'll get directlinks to that and we'll put it
in the show notes there, janet.
So well, another question wewant to ask we ask all of our
listeners is as a takeaway ofthe day, is there a take home
message that you want ourlisteners to remember from our
discussion today?
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Yeah, I think we are relational beings and
relationships are worth it, andthis is the essence of life.
Happiness is love full stop,and our ability to love and to
be in loving relationships isworth the growth.
It will take growth.
It's going to take change inall of us, but that's what we're
(39:55):
born for.
It's what we desire more thananything, but that's what we're
born for.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
It's what we desire more than anything.
Wow, yeah, very powerful.
Thank you, liz.
What about you?
What's your take of the take somany have?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
all these copious notes that now I can't even read
.
Um, you know I love, uh, jenna.
Just a reminder to couples thatthese relationships, they will
always be be difficult becausewe're different, but we were
designed for love and deepconnection.
Just made my day to rememberthat it's beautiful.
(40:26):
And what about you, dave?
What's the richest nugget youhope we all remember from our
time together today with DrJanet Erickson?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, this has been really powerful.
Thank you so much.
I have a lot to reflect on.
I'm going to go back and listenand tell these great words of
wisdom Kind of a message isespecially towards the beginning
.
It was this happy, healthy.
We starts with a happy, healthyme Making sure that I'm in a
good place.
I call it search inward andthen turn outward.
(40:56):
Not in a selfish way about mefirst, but it really is me
making sure that I'm okay, thatI'm good, whether I've
experienced trauma or parents,divorce or other struggles in
life.
Making sure that I'm groundedand I'm okay, and then I can
turn outward and help and lift.
And then the ability I thinkyou talked about being seen,
(41:17):
being known and being loved.
Did I get those three?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
That was powerful, great Thank you, wow.
Well, thanks again, dr Erickson, for making time to coming on
and sharing so much wisdom,thoughts, principles and tips
for us here on the StrongerMarriage Connection.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Thank you and for coming on.
Thank you and really that's theonly way we're ever going to
feel seen and believe we'reloved.
Right Is if we're seen andknown.
Dave and Janet, it's sopowerful to me.
If you don't know me, if youtell me you love me, it's like
yeah, but if you really knew me,I've got the secret back here.
But when you live with partsand you tell me you love me,
it's like there.
(41:59):
It doesn't get much better thanthat because you know yeah,
yeah, because you'll love thisquote from it's tim keller.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
He was like a protestant marriage family
therapist, but um, he says to beloved but not known is
comforting but superficial.
I think my kids feel that.
For me, sometimes, when he saysto be known but not loved,
that's our greatest fear.
But to be truly known and trulyloved is well.
(42:32):
He says a lot like being lovedby God.
It's what we need more thananything.
By God, it's what we need morethan anything.
But what a process, right?
Because I'm sometimes scared tosee my kids truth be told.
I'm not sure I want to know you, I just want you to be my
picture and I'm going to tellyou that I love you and vice
versa.
Right, but that's actually notwhat we need and yearn for.
(42:54):
We yearn to be seen and lovedand known and that's what allows
us to love and see and know.
Right, that's heaven.
That's what heaven is.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, it's about connections, relationships, wow.
Well, that does it for us, ourlisteners.
Thank you so much for tuning inand we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
And remember, dear friends, it's the small things
that create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take care now.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram,
(43:45):
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Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
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StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(44:11):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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