Dr. Ryan Seedall draws on his 20+ years of experience as a therapist to share insights about relationship conflict patterns and the role of attachment in marriage dynamics. He provides practical pointers to strengthen marriage connections, including how to navigate the demand-withdraw cycle and use anger productively.
• Healthy marriages require not just absence of negative interactions but presence of positive ones
• Couples need to recover from conflict, not just learn how to argue better
• The demand-withdraw pattern creates a cycle where one person's behavior triggers the exact response they're trying to avoid
• "Signal and respond" describes how partners communicate needs and respond to each other
• Anger serves as a protest signal that something needs attention, not necessarily a destructive force
• Technology creates new challenges for couples, with text arguments losing crucial nonverbal cues
• Mixed-faith marriages require special navigation of differing beliefs and values
• Early intervention is crucial - addressing small issues before they become entrenched patterns
• Attunement to partner's emotional state builds trust and connection
• Vulnerability, when met with responsiveness, creates deeper intimacy
Remember, it's the small things that create a stronger marriage connection. Find more resources at StrongerMarriage.org, including workshops, e-courses, webinars and relationship surveys.
Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways:
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
http://www.drlizhale.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
On today's episode.
Dr Liz and I welcome Dr RyanSeedall to the show.
Ryan shares common relationship, conflict patterns and the role
of anger in relationships, andhow attachment can play a major
role in relationship dynamics.
Drawing on his 20 plus years ofexperience as a therapist, he
also provides some practicalpointers to help strengthen your
(00:24):
marriage connection.
Dr Ryan Seedahl was born andraised on a farm in Rupert,
idaho.
He received his PhD fromMichigan State University in
2011 and joined the MFT programat Utah State University in 2012
.
He's a licensed marriage andfamily therapist and has been a
practicing therapist for over 20years.
Much of his research has soughtto understand interactional
(00:45):
processes, including how peopleinteract and how relationships
change, with particular interestin attachment theory and its
processes.
He has conductedprocess-related research and
scholarly work in the areas ofcouple conflict, couple support,
intervention, grief and power.
Clinically, he loves workingwith individuals, couples and
families about a variety ofissues, including trauma,
(01:08):
infidelity, depression, anxiety,couple conflict and more.
He and his wife Ruth live inHyde Park, utah, and have four
children.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey there, friends.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Stronger Marriage Connection
podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here with UtahState University Extension,
(01:30):
along with Dr Liz Hale, ourlicensed clinical psychologist,
we're aiming to bring you thevery best that we have in valid
relationship, research andresources, along with a few tips
and tools to help you createthe marriage of your dreams.
All right, liz.
Our guest today is a friend andcolleague who I've worked with
(01:50):
for the past nine years here atUtah State University.
He's a professor and directorof the Marriage and Family
Therapy Program here at USU,helping countless students,
couples and individuals learnprinciples and practices to help
them in their marriage journey.
Plus, he's an all-around greatguy, not to mention a wonderful
husband and father.
(02:10):
Welcome to the show, dr RyanSeedahl.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I'm so jealous.
You two get to go to lunch andI don't.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
He's right here on campus.
Yeah, good friend, it doesgreat work.
Brian, you've been a therapistfor more than 20 years now and
have worked with and helpedstudents work with hundreds,
even thousands, I'm guessingwith all the students who have
then gone on to help people overthe years, and they come with
all kinds of struggles andchallenges, and we typically end
(02:42):
all of our podcasts by askingguests what they believe is the
key to a stronger marriageconnection is.
But I'd like to actually startby asking right up front in your
experience, what are some ofthe most important things that
contribute to healthy marriages?
In other words, ryan, are theresome common characteristics of
couples that you're like?
Yes, these couples, they haveit, and what is that?
(03:04):
It?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
characteristics of couples that you're like yes,
these couples they have it, andwhat is that it?
Yeah, you know it's aninteresting question because
there's no one size fits all.
I think over the years it'sbeen really interesting for me
to recognize that a lot ofcouples can have a really solid,
good relationship and they canlook pretty different.
Of course, there are somecommonalities, I think, that are
(03:28):
important, and one of thethings that I've seen more often
than not is couples who comeinto therapy.
They have certain things theywant to work on, certain things
that maybe are not quite, theydon't feel right.
It just doesn't seem to bewhere they want things to be.
Maybe they're working throughsomething that's happened in the
(03:50):
past or something like that,and so certainly in my work with
them, we want to address thoseissues.
We want to help them becomebetter at conflict or heal from,
you know, something in the pastthat's happened between them or
whatever.
But you know, I think a lot oftimes what I've seen that is
(04:11):
really really important, thatnot all couples think of, is
just the building, the positives.
I realized early on in mytraining that a good
relationship is not just theabsence of negative.
I have to have really positivethings and it's easy to get away
from that.
I think most couples one of thethings I always ask when I'm at
(04:37):
the beginning of the firstsession is just how they met.
I want to understand theircourtship, I want to understand
how they connected and there'susually some really cool things
that they've done and it's easyfor couples to get away from
that.
And so a huge piece that I feelis in addition to healing from
(04:59):
the hurts is being able to getback to what built their
relationship in the first place.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
How do they give and receive love, what really works,
and helping couples get to thatplace, I guess so really it
sounds like reminding themfinding that glory in the
marital story, gautam, we'll saybecause they can almost be
blinded, it seems like, by thestruggles of the current
(05:27):
challenges right now, that theycan easily forget, um, what it
was right that drew each othertogether, and those those early
years and the dating and thefunny things and little quirks,
um, but it can easily be, uhyeah, overshadowed by the the
current struggles.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
It seems like and, and sometimes it's remembering
those things and just doing them, and then sometimes you know,
couples get to a point wherethey're like we can't go back to
that, but we can revise it in away that our relationship can
still be strong, can still havethose positives.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, and moving forward.
Yeah, Sometimes I'll talk tocouples about marriage 2.0 and
one of my couples actually saidmarriage 2.0, we're like on
marriage 20.0.
I think that you're right, wecan't necessarily bring back the
past, sometimes that is gone,and think life's so different.
But to renew some of thosethings or put them in up to
(06:23):
today's space and time, I lovethat.
And of course, you knowdifferences and conflict is a
critical part of what you do.
Also, ryan, what are some ofthe key points our listeners
need to understand aboutconflict in relationships?
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Well, you know, I mean there's some great
information out there related tohow do we bring up difficult
things.
John Gottman has amazing thingsabout a soft startup, and you
know he talks about the fourhorsemen criticism, contempt,
(06:59):
stonewalling, you know thosesorts of things that are
disruptive to relationships, andso I think it's a big thing to
understand how do we avoid thosethings and how do we do
something that's productive.
I think for me, the thing thatI found is that I really
recommend that couples find away to recover from couple
(07:25):
conflict.
I think sometimes we focus allof our energy on how can we
conflict appropriately, and Ithink that's really good, but I
think couples need to find a wayto come back from it.
How do they turn off theconflict?
How do they turn on positivethings in their relationships?
(07:47):
And you know there's been a lotdone that really has highlighted
that that recovery fromconflict, being able to kind of
come back from it, is so, socrucial.
And I've seen couples where,you know, unfortunately, it
basically is conflict and thenit blows up and then there's's a
period of time where they don'ttalk and then basically
(08:10):
eventually that thaws and thenthey can talk again, but they
don't ever really talk about theissue and that's just an easy
cycle.
And so that recovery thatrepair, I guess, is another word
is how can we actually repairwhen things happen in our
relationships?
So I guess that's one big thingI would highlight, above and
(08:33):
beyond some of those things thatmaybe other people who have met
on your podcast have mentioned.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
It's never going to be perfect, is it, dave and Ryan
?
No, not in this life.
Right, not as mere morals, butso the imperative attempt.
That's crucial.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Thank you for that yeah right, you've seen um.
You've not only seen a commonpattern called the demand
withdraw pattern, um, in couples, but you've actually researched
a bit as well.
Can you walk us through thedemand withdraw pattern that so
many couples find themselves inand often don't even realize it?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, well, you know, I think, as I think about my
even career as a therapist, oneof the things that I've realized
that I really enjoy doing islooking at patterns and cycles
in relationships, some of whichget passed down through the
generations honestly, and demandwithdraw is a pattern in
(09:26):
couples.
Sometimes people call it blamewithdraw or pursue withdraw
there's different names for itbut in essence it's.
I mean, I should say there arepositive patterns too that we
enact in our relationships andthey get handed down too, but
it's one that's maybe a littlebit more destructive, and the
(09:47):
more destructive ones.
One of the big challenges isthat my behavior actually brings
out the behavior in my partnerthat I'm most struggling with,
and vice versa.
So pursue withdraw is like inmoments of distress and kind of
where we're aroused andstruggling a little bit.
(10:10):
Then one person seeks to engagethe relationship we're going to
fix this by engaging in therelationship.
That's the pursuer and then theother person seeks to withdraw
from the relationship needs moreemotional space, and it might
(10:32):
be for really good reasons,maybe.
You know, I probably trend alittle more pursuing.
My wife trends a little bit morewithdrawing.
One of the things she's told meis you don't want to hear what
I have to say, it might not havea good enough filter for me.
And so this pursue withdraws.
So I pursue, I say we've got totalk about this, this is an
(10:55):
issue.
She withdraws, she feels kindof like attacked or, you know,
cornered, and then she decidesI'm going to withdraw.
And the more she withdraws, themore I'm like now, we got to
talk about this, I pursue it.
And the more I pursue it, themore she withdraws.
And then, you know, nothingreally ends up happening, it
(11:15):
just sometimes it just blows upand then, and then we separate
anyway, or eventually.
Usually that happens, eitheraway or eventually.
Usually that happens either itescalates so badly, um, that
it's not productive, or, um, youknow it escalates.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
And then we, we have to have space from each other.
So, okay, is there a?
I'm curious, uh, a gendered uhyou know pattern?
As far as research, you knowwhat it, it suggests, and how do
couples I don't know, how doyou help them get out of that
see that and then kind of works,works through it yeah, you know
, um, there, some of our genderexpectations would be that maybe
(11:53):
men withdraw more and womenpursue more.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
My research didn't necessarily show that directly.
There there are some evidences.
In fact, one of the things thatit depends even more than
gender is who the issue is mostimportant to.
So, whether you're a man or awoman, if the issue is important
to you, you're likely going toexhibit more demand behaviors.
(12:20):
One of the things that myresearch did show and this makes
total sense is just that themore I pursue, the more my
partner withdraws, or the moremy partner withdraws, the more I
pursue or demand.
So there is this systemic pieceof something we're feeding off
of each other In terms of howyou handle it.
You know, a lot of times I helpa couple recognize that we are
(12:46):
wired a little bit differently.
I think the big fear forsomeone who's a pursuer is that
they're never going to be ableto talk about it and, in all
honesty, sometimes that bearsout.
You know, the withdrawerwithdraws and then they never
come back to it and they neverend up really doing anything and
then what happens is eventuallythat plays out again, whether
(13:09):
it's the same scenario or aslightly different scenario, and
you know, I think thewithdrawer really needs that
space, and maybe their big fearis, yes, saying something that
they're going to regret, or thatthey don't want to, or engage
in a way that's not good.
And so I think, a lot of timeswhen I've seen couples handle
(13:34):
this more healthily or more in abetter way, I think one of the
big things is that they're bothvery clear about what they want
and they're also clear aboutwhat's going on for them.
So, you know, sometimes it is assimple as calling a negotiated
timeout, not a timeout that sayswe're done.
(13:56):
You know we'll come backsometime in the future, but hey,
I need 15 minutes.
I really do want to talk aboutthis, but I need 15 minutes.
Hey, I need 15 minutes.
I really do want to talk aboutthis, but I need 15 minutes.
And then I go, rather thangathering the artillery and
getting ready for wars, I'mtrying to just get myself in a
place where we can both engagein a good way.
(14:17):
And then, if 15 minutes isn'tquite long enough, I go to my
partner.
I say, hey, is there a way thatwe can do another 15 minutes?
Again, we really want to dothis.
Or maybe we say tonight at 7.30, let's talk about this.
But it's trying to give thewithdrawer a little bit of space
, that they need to processthings and the pursuer needs to
(14:43):
get their ultimate goal of beingable to talk about things.
And so it's just, it'snavigating that a little bit and
the couples who can do it,they're just clear with what the
overall goal is and thenthey're also, you know,
negotiate and probably negotiatethe timeout steps when you're
not escalated out, steps whenyou're not escalated.
You do that ahead of time andyou just, you know, lay things
(15:16):
out so that when or if the timecomes that you start to escalate
, you can.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
You both know what the plan is.
I imagine right with some ofthis.
It depends on you know some ofthe communication and saying,
hey, you know, I would love tochat about this.
It depends on, um, you knowsome of the communication and
saying, hey, you know, I wouldlove to chat about this, but I,
I feel attacked.
And I know you know what I read.
Your tone goes up and I do, Ifeel attacked.
So is there some type of this?
Both of us, Okay, recognizing?
Oh, I see the pattern and I seemy role in this.
(15:38):
I've got to learn to kind ofkeep my, my tone.
You know, go slow and lowinstead of this.
You know, goes slow and lowinstead of this.
You know loud and and attacking.
So the other person's literallykind of sometimes afraid, being
like, hey, I, we've done thisbefore and it doesn't end well,
I, I'm not going.
You know I refuse to.
But then the you know what'swrong.
I refuse to talk to you unlessyou call it that type of a of a
(15:59):
thing.
But man, it's both somerecognition yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Uh, just the thing that came to mind as you were
talking is that sometimes it'sreally helpful for us to
pursuers.
They're trying to get theirneeds met in a way that actually
pushes their partner away orthat at least decreases the odds
that they'll actually be heardneed.
(16:45):
That's really important and youwant the partners to
acknowledge that each other'sneeds are important.
But how we're getting thoseneeds, how we're trying to meet
those needs, sometimes iscounterproductive.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
There's another concept you studied quite a bit,
Ryan a signal and respond.
I'm not familiar with this.
Tell us more about for couples,what signal and respond means
in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Yeah, and that's actually what I was starting,
just inching into a little bitwith what I just said.
So let me give you just a quickbackground.
In a lot of attachment research, one of the names you'll
sometimes hear about is MaryAinsworth, and she did a lot of
really cool research with mostlymothers and infants and just
(17:32):
watched them and tried tounderstand.
Back in her day the idea wasyou know, I think John Watson
said there are serious knocksahead for the over pampered
child.
John Watson said there areserious knocks ahead for the
over pampered child and therewas this idea that if you
respond to someone's cry, thatyou're reinforcing the cry.
That's a behavioral idea.
(17:53):
And so she ended up showingthat that wasn't the case and
then she developed thislaboratory procedure.
It's called the strangesituation, but the long and the
short of it is that there's aseparation between the caregiver
and the infant.
The caregiver leaves the room,is with another person, the
child is left with anotherperson and it's just there's a
(18:16):
little bit of distress that thechild feels.
Well, they found that it'sreally important when the
caregiver comes back and theylook and see how the child
responds when the caregivercomes back.
And, as you might expect.
You know, some of the childrencry, they're really upset, some
are distressed, but they're notcrying or anything.
But when the caregiver comesthrough the door they go
(18:39):
straight to the caregiver andthey put their hands up and
they're like hold me, you know,and that is a signal.
So one of the things that I didin my research with couples is
I started to look, and it'sactually really clear, in
caregiver infant relationshipsand then I realized, wait a
second, I think it can beapplied to couples, but you do
(19:02):
have some infants that they'llstart towards the parent and
then at one moment they'll kindof veer off because they're not
really sure that if they signalclearly that their needs will
get met.
Or sometimes they're upset andthey're still upset at the
caregiver and they're archingtheir back or they're not being
comforted by the caregiver, theymight go to them, and so all of
(19:26):
these are different signals.
The last two are less clear,but obviously that putting your
hands up and this is what I want, and then you're, you're, you
get what you need, that's aclear signal in couple
relationships.
Sometimes we don't signalclearly what we want.
And again, and there's twoparts to that, but the goal with
(19:51):
that first part is to try andhelp signal clearly.
Responsiveness is the other partand in the work I've done with
parents and children, we try andhelp the parent know that, even
if they don't signal crystalclear, that maybe there's a way
that they can respondappropriately.
(20:11):
But it's kind of this dance oftrying to get us trying to be
attuned and trying to signalclearly and then respond
appropriately.
And the couples that you knowthat are successful.
They have clear signals andthen the other person's attuned
(20:33):
enough that they reach out whenit's most appropriate.
And in fact what I've found isthere's a question that
sometimes people will ask.
Maybe it's implicit but they'llwill you be there for me when
things go right or when thingsgo wrong?
(20:53):
Will you be there both?
When things are going well,will you be there for me when
things are I'm struggling, willyou be there for me?
And so the signaling,responding.
I think a lot of the work thatI do in therapy is to try and
help partners signalappropriately and respond in a
loving, sensitive way.
(21:14):
You know, when you thinkparents and children, it's more
one-sided.
The parent needs to be theresponder, the child needs to be
the signaler, but in couplesit's both Right, definitely.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Just that ability to.
I mean, over the years I'vetried to become better at this
With my wife.
I'm over the years I've triedto become better at this really
with with my wife.
I'm definitely not perfect, butjust to visually see you know,
matt, she's got a lot.
You know we've got a weddingcoming up and the daughter
having a baby and all these wetshowers and plans and stuff I
can sometimes just just see like, okay, I need to respond this
(21:46):
way, or maybe she needs this ormaybe what can I do for her.
So it's more of this.
You know, see it, I can see thesignal that she's giving off is
one often of stress or anxiety,and my ability to okay, respond
or to not bring up, not pileanother stressor on there.
So I'm trying to and sometimesit's visual cues, or you know
even tone of voice or you knowthose sides that she has, and so
(22:09):
I try to.
You know those size that shehas and so I try to to see that
and respond.
But again, it's, it's taken usyeah, I don't know years to try
to pick up on that.
I guess I'm a slow learner,maybe.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Well, and it and it's more complex than just me
saying, hey, let me know whensomething comes up.
I'm not going to know unlessyou tell me.
You know I need to be looking.
But it is true that it is nicewhen our partners can clearly
let us know, hey, this is what Ineed or what.
What some other research hasfound is that, you know, if I
(22:42):
try and support you in a way youknow, you just mentioned
supporting your wife it's greatwhen she can kind of let you
know what she needs, becausethere's a term called support
adequacy, which means you knowhow, how appropriate is the
support that we give.
You could try and support her bytaking out the trash.
(23:03):
You know when she actuallyneeds a hug or something more
emotional, or maybe she doesneed something kind of tangible,
something done.
But it's trying to navigatethat and figuring out how you
can really best show support.
Sometimes you can try andfigure that out just by being
attuned and noticing, andsometimes it's really helpful
(23:26):
when she says, hey, this is whatI need, I need a hug.
Or, yeah, take out the trash.
Hey, will you go pay thesebills?
Or you know, whatever, this iswhat I need, I need a hug, or,
yeah, take out the trash and hey, will you go pay these bills?
Or whatever it might be.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
We'll be right back after this brief message and
we're back, let's dive right inright.
Can you talk just a little bitabout um anger and its role in
relationships today?
(23:58):
Now, anger is always I mean,it's been around right since the
beginning of time but it feelslike um, you know I go, our sons
, you know our kids playlacrosse and football and things
, and it feels like the, thetempers and things are rising
faster.
The triggers and the meanness,the hostility is coming.
I can't help it.
Some of that is happeninginside homes and relationships
(24:22):
today.
Can you tell us a little bitabout I don't know the role of
anger and I guess thedestructive role that it's
playing?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
today.
Well, you know what'sinteresting?
I think a lot of these sorts ofthings.
It's like okay, how do wedefine, how do we define anger,
how do we define some of thethings that are similar to anger
?
And so one way that I coulddefine this is anger has a
function and a role.
It doesn't have to be negative.
(24:52):
Contempt, hostility, those arepretty negative.
It's really hard to say thatthey're ever going to have a
role in relationships.
One of the terms that's used inattachment language is if I feel
like separation, if I feel likesomething's not right, I will
(25:12):
go into a protest.
And so you can imagine thatpure anger, rather than being
hostile, rather than beingcontemptuous, it's a signal.
It's a signal that, hey,something's not quite right.
It's a signal.
It's a signal that hey,something's not quite right.
(25:35):
And it's a protest of, hey,something's not right, we need
to fix this.
It can encourage correctiveaction.
It's kind of like, you know,pain, putting my hand on a stove
.
That signals wait, something'snot right, get your hand off the
stove, right.
And so I think anger inrelationships does not have to
(25:57):
be negative, but it's what we dowith it, and very often it does
turn negative, because any timethat we try and use our anger
to hurt the other emotionally oranything.
Sometimes that's the thing Ifeel hurt.
What's the saying?
Hurt people, hurt people, youknow.
And so then I say things that Idon't mean or you know,
(26:20):
whatever it might be, and so allof those things that's never
good.
But if you look at it as I,still care, and that's what
we'll reframe in therapy.
We try and help them use theiranger productively and not push
their partner away.
But they still care, they stillwant.
(26:40):
It's a form of protest, theywant something to be different
and that's good.
To work with in couples is likea burnt out pursuer, someone who
has stopped caring, and you seethat in relationships,
unfortunately.
Sometimes you see partner onereally wants to work on the
(27:04):
relationship, partner two'suninterested, and that happens
for years.
And finally, partner one's theburnt out pursuer and they're
done.
And then the partner two reallystarts amping up and saying,
okay, we need to do somethingabout this and that's a struggle
, right it.
And so you know there's abalanced form of anger.
(27:25):
There's anger towards self,like deflated anger.
That's no good, that ends upbeing like shame, you know.
And then there's anger turnedoutward, where I'm trying to
hurt you and that's no goodeither.
It's just this balance ofsaying, hey, this happened and
(27:49):
it's not okay and we need todeal with it.
That's anger.
Rather than raising thetemperature, the voice of you
know that turns more tohostility or contempt.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Okay, so the protest I like that word Bringing
something up.
Yeah, I give up trying to doanger, the conflict in a really
healthy way.
I you didn't give up on that.
So it's a very small narrowwindow you're talking about,
isn't it right?
A healthy expression of that.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
I like that word and it does require us to define it
a little differently than whatwe normally, because usually we
say anger and we think that'sbad.
Right, and it can be if wedefine that in terms of
hostility and contempt and thosesorts of things.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You've published research on attachment,
connection and bonding inrelationships.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Can you please give us some practical pointers about
how couples can bond moresolely in their relationships.
Yeah, you know, I mean I thinka big thing and I kind of
mentioned this before, but I'vereally found that we're trying
to connect, we're trying tounderstand how we connect.
Sometimes people are wiredsomewhat differently, so how I
(29:07):
like to be connected with mightbe a little bit different to how
my spouse likes to be connectedwith.
That doesn't mean that you knowsaying kind words.
If maybe she feels love in adifferent way than kind words,
I'm not saying you don't do thatRight, and she should be able
(29:35):
to accept that those kind wordsare meant with love.
But it really is trying tofigure out how can we connect in
the best way possible.
And I think it's a two-partprocess where one is connecting
when things are going well andbeing able to do that, but also
finding ways to connect evenwhen there's a struggle.
And there's two terms One isconflict, one is social support.
(29:59):
Social support is well.
Conflict is the partner, is thesource of my struggle, social
support is.
It may be my work, it may beother things that I'm struggling
with, but the support and thoseprocesses are still the same
and I think attachment theoryreally has helped me understand
(30:21):
how can we reach out, how can webe there for each other when
there's distress, when there'sstruggle, whether the distress
is me or whether it's somethingelse yeah, man, it's such a key
and that's really why we call itstronger marriage connection.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
You know the name of our podcast, our of our podcast,
because how important that,that bond, that attachment,
those little things, that thosebids, the responses, all that um
are to relationships.
It's really what people want isthe stronger connection in
their marriage many of them.
I'm curious as to whether thechallenges that couples are
(31:01):
dealing with have changed overthe past 20 years since you've
been practicing with couples.
Are there common challenges?
Have you seen any upticks inchallenges or specific problems
that couples come in with?
Technology may be one of those,that just that just wasn't
around Technoferrets, thosekinds of things.
But in your experience and Iwork with the students, work
with couples and individualshave you seen some again
(31:23):
patterns or something, anythingthat has really like escalated,
I guess, in I don't know, inrecent years?
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the technology because
that made me think of a few newthings.
But there are some sameculprits that haven't changed.
You know, infidelity affairs, alot of things related to
parenting although that haschanged with technology and
different things of how tonavigate that.
Most couples still will saythat a huge piece of why they're
(31:52):
coming in as communication, andwe always smile at that because
usually there's more than that.
Communication is important, butthere's more than that, I would
say, as I have thought aboutmaybe some nuances that have
emerged over the years.
I think when it comes toparenting, I think technology is
(32:14):
a big one.
I think we've had to navigateand when you mentioned this it
had me think of.
We've had to navigate the useof technology in couple
relationships because it'spretty interesting that I've had
a number of couples who haveconflict over text and they're
(32:36):
big, long texts and for the mostpart I know there's some like
some people decide that maybedoing it over text helps because
there's a little bit moredistance between you know they
can think about things, they canprocess things.
However, what I have found isif you have conflict over text,
(32:59):
you know, you hear about whatpercentage is nonverbal in our
communication.
You know, I've heard up to 90%is nonverbal and you lose that
when you communicate by text isnonverbal and you lose that when
you communicate by text.
And so one of the things thatis challenging and I've
experienced it with someone Itexted with and I don't think
(33:20):
they were even trying to be.
They might have been trying tobe a little snarky, but I read
it in such a way that it wasdevastating to me.
I don't even think the personever realized it, because at one
point I started to realize, oh,this person's just joking, this
is just a fun thing and Ididn't see it that way.
And so there's a lot that getslost with texting.
(33:43):
I think more in Utah, one ofthe things that especially my
students, when I supervise them,what they seem to navigate more
and more are mixed-faithmarriages.
So one partner has transitioned, or they have other beliefs,
transitioned out of a beliefsystem, or they have other
(34:06):
beliefs, and it's beeninteresting to help the
therapist, help the couples,navigate that, because there's a
lot of meaning that we give tospirituality and we take a lot
of that for granted in terms ofthat that matches.
And when it stops matching,then couples really struggle
(34:29):
with.
Okay, what do we do now?
And there's a full gamut that'srun in terms of some couples
being able to live with it andthrive with it and some couples
that don't.
But I'd say that.
And then I think over the last20 years I think we've gotten
way better at being aware oftrauma and it's more of a common
(34:53):
thing that we think about, thatwe talk about there's actually
different types of trauma.
You think of PTSD.
That's life-threatening kind ofsingle event, although it can
happen over time too.
But then there's some scholarsreally like the idea of
developmental trauma that occursover time.
(35:16):
Maybe it's never alife-threatening thing, but it
really causes me to question alot of things in my life and in
my relationship.
And so there's a lot ofdifferent types of trauma, and
trauma can be really disruptiveto relationships because it's a
(35:36):
feeling of powerlessness andwhen you feel powerless you try
and cope by controlling andmaking sure that you can predict
everything, and that can bedisruptive in relationships
either feeling powerless ortrying to control things.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, what about our couples who are in their early
years of marriage?
Brian, many of our listeners, Idon't think it's too unusual to
have struggles those firstyears of marriage.
From a therapist's perspective,what tips and advice do you
recommend, and at what pointshould they maybe reach out for
help from a therapist?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
You know it's interesting.
The more I've thought aboutthis, the more I've recognized
that it is the most amazingthing for couples to come and do
any work that's needed earlyand often I remember seeing a
couple and they were a youngcouple I was younger at the time
too but in the end they werekind of talking and conflicting
(36:38):
about the TV and the remotecontrol and internally I kind of
was like oh really, you'rearguing about the remote.
And yet the more I thoughtabout it, the more I realized I
was so glad that they were therebecause there were patterns
that we were able to work.
(36:59):
They still cared about eachother, they loved each other
very much, but they were havingthese issues that emerged about
seemingly small things, and wewere able to work through the
patterns and the cycles thatthey were enacting with
relatively small issues and theystill cared about each other.
(37:20):
The thing that's the hardestthing is when couples have let
things fester for 10, 20 yearsand then they try and work on it
and by then that reservoir ofcaring and that love, it doesn't
feel the same.
And sometimes, unfortunately,couples start to rewrite history
(37:41):
and you almost listen to themand they're not sure they ever
liked each other, and so I thinkit is the most amazing thing
for young couples to saysomething's not quite right.
Let's just go in and get ittaken care of, because it makes
(38:03):
it so much easier down the road.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
So early, and often you said right Early, and often
that's good advice.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, Amen.
Hey, Ryan, I mentioned at thebeginning of our discussion that
I'd bring up this questionagain If you had to pick one.
I know there's all kinds ofkeys to a strong marriage, but
if you had to pick one, what'syour go-to for a stronger
marriage connection?
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Oh, you know, that's a great question.
Oh, you know that's a greatquestion.
I think, in addition to all thethings I've said, I mean I
think it's really important thatwe give ourselves some race or
some flexibility and werecognize again, there's not one
size fits all.
I think we see so-and-so'smarriage and we think, oh, they
(38:49):
clearly have it all together,they have it all figured out.
What's wrong with me, what'swrong with my partner?
And so I think a big one isbeing able to give all of
ourselves permission to maybenot get it 100% right and to
recognize, hey, get it 100%right.
(39:10):
And to recognize, hey, let'swork on this, let's figure this
out.
And one of the things I'verecognized is I grew up in a
very loving home.
My parents loved me and yet theywere far from perfect and I
didn't necessarily see the bestmodel of how you handle conflict
(39:33):
and challenges and things likethat.
And, as one example, this ismore parent-child, but my dad
was a farmer and there's acertain way you communicate on
the farm and it's mostly whatyou were talking about elevated
voices, things of that nature,maybe some choice words.
(39:54):
And I realized with my kidsgrowing up that I got into
lecture mode really easily,because that's what worked
growing up, and so I thinksometimes it's just being able
to identify what models did Ihave, what do I do, especially
under high stress, what do Iresort to, what works for me,
(40:15):
what's good, and then what do Ineed to set aside?
And so, you know, with my kidsit was really trying hard, when
I felt that, to say, okay, whatwould teaching look like, rather
than what would lecturing looklike, because they're not the
same thing.
And so I guess that's one thingthat I've learned over time
(40:35):
with my therapy and with my lifejust give ourselves grace, and
then also try and look and saywhat do I want to keep, what do
I want to take, what do I wantto learn?
And to recognize that we're,you know we're we're constantly
learning and evolving.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Right, I'm got to say this.
I'm so glad that you said that,and I don't know if anyone Liz
has ever said that, because mymind goes back to couples and
even these.
I remember at these early yearsyou know I might lose it or she
might lose it, and we saysomething and then you know the
tone's not helpful, and then weapologize, and then you know
what, the next day or the nextweek we do it again and you know
(41:17):
the tone goes up.
I'm like man, you know, Iapologize but I did it again.
And so I think I think you'reexactly right that we shouldn't
expect this perfection thatwe're growing together.
Give grace, forgiveness even ofourselves, and at the time I
really am sorry, she really issorry, and then man tempers get
going again or whatever we sayand do things, and so I think
(41:39):
couples can get talking aboutpatterns, because pattern are
really kicking themselves andmade like man I keep apologizing
with or my spouse keepsapologizing man, they keep keep
losing it.
So anyway, I think that that'smore profound than at least as
it comes across at first for me.
So I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Yeah, you bet, and you know, as a therapist, I
would reframe that too.
What you just said is see,you're still trying.
Yeah, it's not going as youwant it to, but I'm so glad
you're still trying, because,again, that's when couples
really struggle is when they getto that point where they don't
feel like trying anymore.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Apathy.
Right, that is frightening,you're right.
Well, dr Ryan Seidel, pleasetell us where can our listeners
find out more about you, theCounseling Center there, atu,
and any other helpful resourcesyou'd like to share, please.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Yeah, you know.
So I, yeah, like was saidbefore, I'm the program director
at the Marriage and FamilyTherapy Program in Utah State,
so you can find me on the HumanDevelopment Family Studies
website there and the Marriageand Family Therapy website.
I've got a small privatepractice in North Logan called
the Center for Couples andFamilies, cache Valley, and then
(42:56):
, yeah, our students are amazingand they do great work and it's
the Sorenson Center forClinical Excellence, the
behavioral health clinic.
It has psychology and marriageand family therapy, and so I'm
kind of in all those places.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Awesome Thanks, ryan.
Well, for our listeners, we'llbe sure to put links in the show
notes, direct links to thewebsites where you can find out
more about Ryan and the senderand the services there and
resources offered there.
And before we let you go, we'dlike to end with a takeaway of
the day.
Ryan, is there a take-homemessage?
Right, if you could give ashout out?
So a principle, a tip forcouples emphasize a principle.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
What would it be?
I think you know I've used thatword, but attunement.
I think if everyone reallytries to attune and really
notice what's going on for theirpartner, I think the world
would be way different if wewere better attuned to one
(44:00):
another.
You know, our society is suchwhere you know we're primed to
say how you doing Dave, how youdoing Liz, and you're supposed
to tell me fine or good orwhatever, and I'm not talking
about in casual conversation,but it's just really important
to be really attuned and torecognize Dave, how are you
(44:22):
really doing Liz, how are youreally doing?
And to be able to talk aboutthat.
And I think what I've found Ican't remember what happened the
other day, but someone wassuper vulnerable and it just
really led to a lot morecloseness and a positive thing.
And so I think that attunementand being able to attune to
(44:45):
someone's vulnerability, it justbrings closeness a lot more.
And sometimes we put walls upand we don't want to show that,
but that's how we gain closenessin our relationships, in our
marriages and in a lot of whatwe do.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Yeah, and that takes risk, right, it takes, I'm going
to open up and if I get burnedand I may close up and not risk
again and be vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
But man, a vulnerability, yeah, when it is
reciprocated, shared, responsive, uh, amen, that is and the hope
is, if you open up and I'mattuned, I won't miss it, and
that that will be different.
Because that's the big thing is, why would I open up if you're
not going to respond?
Because it does happen, youknow, something's like oh well,
(45:30):
you, it's been a rough day.
Oh well, that's too bad, we'llsee you later, you know.
And so it's.
It's trying to to do both.
Yeah, love it.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
What about you?
What's your takeaway in the daywith Dr Ryan seal?
Speaker 2 (45:43):
You know I am touched by the signal and respond that
question Will you be there forme?
That's what I really want toknow.
It reminds me of Dr SueJohnson's work a little bit.
Ryan, right, are you there forme?
Accessible, responsive, engaged?
I love that.
I think my husband's actuallybetter at it than I am.
Thank you for the reminder,dave.
(46:05):
What's a rich nugget for you,my friend and with our time
together with Dr Ryan.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yeah, thanks for all kinds of great insights.
For me it's with dr ryan.
Yeah, thanks for all kinds ofgreat insights.
For me it's the uh, thepatterns.
You know to pause and and lookat patterns and it does.
It takes kind of stepping out,because when you're in the
pattern and in the cycle it'sreally tough to see yourself, um
, in it.
So it does take a little bit ofa pause.
Perspectives in this pattern, um, looking to say, okay, we keep
(46:29):
doing this, how do we get out ofthis?
What's my part in this?
What is it that I really need?
What do they need?
And then I'm going to just sayit again for couples, if you
feel like you're stuck in thispattern, you need help, getting
out, reach out, reach out forhelp.
Therapists, counselors can beso very um, helpful Just another
(46:52):
person to kind of help you bothsee and improve your
relationship.
So I hope that you don't, youdon't hesitate um, but that you
reach out for help when you feellike you need it.
Ryan, thanks again, my friend,for for coming on and, uh, sure,
appreciate you, your wisdom andyour time today.
Thank you, it's been a pleasure.
All right, friends, that doesit for us.
(47:13):
We will see you again next timeon another episode of the
Stronger Marriage Connectionpodcast.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
I just have to say Utah State is lucky to have you
both Put your seat on Dr Schramm.
Good for you and remember dearfriends and family, it's the
small things that create astronger marriage connection.
Take care now.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(47:55):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(48:16):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(48:40):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
On today's episode.
Dr Liz and I welcome Dr RyanSeedall to the show.
Ryan shares common relationship, conflict patterns and the role
of anger in relationships, andhow attachment can play a major
role in relationship dynamics.
Drawing on his 20 plus years ofexperience as a therapist, he
also provides some practicalpointers to help strengthen your
(00:24):
marriage connection.
Dr Ryan Seedahl was born andraised on a farm in Rupert,
idaho.
He received his PhD fromMichigan State University in
2011 and joined the MFT programat Utah State University in 2012
.
He's a licensed marriage andfamily therapist and has been a
practicing therapist for over 20years.
Much of his research has soughtto understand interactional
(00:45):
processes, including how peopleinteract and how relationships
change, with particular interestin attachment theory and its
processes.
He has conductedprocess-related research and
scholarly work in the areas ofcouple conflict, couple support,
intervention, grief and power.
Clinically, he loves workingwith individuals, couples and
families about a variety ofissues, including trauma,
(01:08):
infidelity, depression, anxiety,couple conflict and more.
He and his wife Ruth live inHyde Park, utah, and have four
children.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey there, friends.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Stronger Marriage Connection
podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here with UtahState University Extension,
(01:30):
along with Dr Liz Hale, ourlicensed clinical psychologist,
we're aiming to bring you thevery best that we have in valid
relationship, research andresources, along with a few tips
and tools to help you createthe marriage of your dreams.
All right, liz.
Our guest today is a friend andcolleague who I've worked with
(01:50):
for the past nine years here atUtah State University.
He's a professor and directorof the Marriage and Family
Therapy Program here at USU,helping countless students,
couples and individuals learnprinciples and practices to help
them in their marriage journey.
Plus, he's an all-around greatguy, not to mention a wonderful
husband and father.
(02:10):
Welcome to the show, dr RyanSeedahl.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I'm so jealous.
You two get to go to lunch andI don't.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
He's right here on campus.
Yeah, good friend, it doesgreat work.
Brian, you've been a therapistfor more than 20 years now and
have worked with and helpedstudents work with hundreds,
even thousands, I'm guessingwith all the students who have
then gone on to help people overthe years, and they come with
all kinds of struggles andchallenges, and we typically end
(02:42):
all of our podcasts by askingguests what they believe is the
key to a stronger marriageconnection is.
But I'd like to actually startby asking right up front in your
experience, what are some ofthe most important things that
contribute to healthy marriages?
In other words, ryan, are theresome common characteristics of
couples that you're like?
Yes, these couples, they haveit, and what is that?
(03:04):
It?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
characteristics of couples that you're like yes,
these couples they have it, andwhat is that it?
Yeah, you know it's aninteresting question because
there's no one size fits all.
I think over the years it'sbeen really interesting for me
to recognize that a lot ofcouples can have a really solid,
good relationship and they canlook pretty different.
Of course, there are somecommonalities, I think, that are
(03:28):
important, and one of thethings that I've seen more often
than not is couples who comeinto therapy.
They have certain things theywant to work on, certain things
that maybe are not quite, theydon't feel right.
It just doesn't seem to bewhere they want things to be.
Maybe they're working throughsomething that's happened in the
(03:50):
past or something like that,and so certainly in my work with
them, we want to address thoseissues.
We want to help them becomebetter at conflict or heal from,
you know, something in the pastthat's happened between them or
whatever.
But you know, I think a lot oftimes what I've seen that is
(04:11):
really really important, thatnot all couples think of, is
just the building, the positives.
I realized early on in mytraining that a good
relationship is not just theabsence of negative.
I have to have really positivethings and it's easy to get away
from that.
I think most couples one of thethings I always ask when I'm at
(04:37):
the beginning of the firstsession is just how they met.
I want to understand theircourtship, I want to understand
how they connected and there'susually some really cool things
that they've done and it's easyfor couples to get away from
that.
And so a huge piece that I feelis in addition to healing from
(04:59):
the hurts is being able to getback to what built their
relationship in the first place.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
How do they give and receive love, what really works,
and helping couples get to thatplace, I guess so really it
sounds like reminding themfinding that glory in the
marital story, gautam, we'll saybecause they can almost be
blinded, it seems like, by thestruggles of the current
(05:27):
challenges right now, that theycan easily forget, um, what it
was right that drew each othertogether, and those those early
years and the dating and thefunny things and little quirks,
um, but it can easily be, uhyeah, overshadowed by the the
current struggles.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
It seems like and, and sometimes it's remembering
those things and just doing them, and then sometimes you know,
couples get to a point wherethey're like we can't go back to
that, but we can revise it in away that our relationship can
still be strong, can still havethose positives.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, and moving forward.
Yeah, Sometimes I'll talk tocouples about marriage 2.0 and
one of my couples actually saidmarriage 2.0, we're like on
marriage 20.0.
I think that you're right, wecan't necessarily bring back the
past, sometimes that is gone,and think life's so different.
But to renew some of thosethings or put them in up to
(06:23):
today's space and time, I lovethat.
And of course, you knowdifferences and conflict is a
critical part of what you do.
Also, ryan, what are some ofthe key points our listeners
need to understand aboutconflict in relationships?
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Well, you know, I mean there's some great
information out there related tohow do we bring up difficult
things.
John Gottman has amazing thingsabout a soft startup, and you
know he talks about the fourhorsemen criticism, contempt,
(06:59):
stonewalling, you know thosesorts of things that are
disruptive to relationships, andso I think it's a big thing to
understand how do we avoid thosethings and how do we do
something that's productive.
I think for me, the thing thatI found is that I really
recommend that couples find away to recover from couple
(07:25):
conflict.
I think sometimes we focus allof our energy on how can we
conflict appropriately, and Ithink that's really good, but I
think couples need to find a wayto come back from it.
How do they turn off theconflict?
How do they turn on positivethings in their relationships?
(07:47):
And you know there's been a lotdone that really has highlighted
that that recovery fromconflict, being able to kind of
come back from it, is so, socrucial.
And I've seen couples where,you know, unfortunately, it
basically is conflict and thenit blows up and then there's's a
period of time where they don'ttalk and then basically
(08:10):
eventually that thaws and thenthey can talk again, but they
don't ever really talk about theissue and that's just an easy
cycle.
And so that recovery thatrepair, I guess, is another word
is how can we actually repairwhen things happen in our
relationships?
So I guess that's one big thingI would highlight, above and
(08:33):
beyond some of those things thatmaybe other people who have met
on your podcast have mentioned.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
It's never going to be perfect, is it, dave and Ryan
?
No, not in this life.
Right, not as mere morals, butso the imperative attempt.
That's crucial.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Thank you for that yeah right, you've seen um.
You've not only seen a commonpattern called the demand
withdraw pattern, um, in couples, but you've actually researched
a bit as well.
Can you walk us through thedemand withdraw pattern that so
many couples find themselves inand often don't even realize it?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, well, you know, I think, as I think about my
even career as a therapist, oneof the things that I've realized
that I really enjoy doing islooking at patterns and cycles
in relationships, some of whichget passed down through the
generations honestly, and demandwithdraw is a pattern in
(09:26):
couples.
Sometimes people call it blamewithdraw or pursue withdraw
there's different names for itbut in essence it's.
I mean, I should say there arepositive patterns too that we
enact in our relationships andthey get handed down too, but
it's one that's maybe a littlebit more destructive, and the
(09:47):
more destructive ones.
One of the big challenges isthat my behavior actually brings
out the behavior in my partnerthat I'm most struggling with,
and vice versa.
So pursue withdraw is like inmoments of distress and kind of
where we're aroused andstruggling a little bit.
(10:10):
Then one person seeks to engagethe relationship we're going to
fix this by engaging in therelationship.
That's the pursuer and then theother person seeks to withdraw
from the relationship needs moreemotional space, and it might
(10:32):
be for really good reasons,maybe.
You know, I probably trend alittle more pursuing.
My wife trends a little bit morewithdrawing.
One of the things she's told meis you don't want to hear what
I have to say, it might not havea good enough filter for me.
And so this pursue withdraws.
So I pursue, I say we've got totalk about this, this is an
(10:55):
issue.
She withdraws, she feels kindof like attacked or, you know,
cornered, and then she decidesI'm going to withdraw.
And the more she withdraws, themore I'm like now, we got to
talk about this, I pursue it.
And the more I pursue it, themore she withdraws.
And then, you know, nothingreally ends up happening, it
(11:15):
just sometimes it just blows upand then, and then we separate
anyway, or eventually.
Usually that happens, eitheraway or eventually.
Usually that happens either itescalates so badly, um, that
it's not productive, or, um, youknow it escalates.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
And then we, we have to have space from each other.
So, okay, is there a?
I'm curious, uh, a gendered uhyou know pattern?
As far as research, you knowwhat it, it suggests, and how do
couples I don't know, how doyou help them get out of that
see that and then kind of works,works through it yeah, you know
, um, there, some of our genderexpectations would be that maybe
(11:53):
men withdraw more and womenpursue more.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
My research didn't necessarily show that directly.
There there are some evidences.
In fact, one of the things thatit depends even more than
gender is who the issue is mostimportant to.
So, whether you're a man or awoman, if the issue is important
to you, you're likely going toexhibit more demand behaviors.
(12:20):
One of the things that myresearch did show and this makes
total sense is just that themore I pursue, the more my
partner withdraws, or the moremy partner withdraws, the more I
pursue or demand.
So there is this systemic pieceof something we're feeding off
of each other In terms of howyou handle it.
You know, a lot of times I helpa couple recognize that we are
(12:46):
wired a little bit differently.
I think the big fear forsomeone who's a pursuer is that
they're never going to be ableto talk about it and, in all
honesty, sometimes that bearsout.
You know, the withdrawerwithdraws and then they never
come back to it and they neverend up really doing anything and
then what happens is eventuallythat plays out again, whether
(13:09):
it's the same scenario or aslightly different scenario, and
you know, I think thewithdrawer really needs that
space, and maybe their big fearis, yes, saying something that
they're going to regret, or thatthey don't want to, or engage
in a way that's not good.
And so I think, a lot of timeswhen I've seen couples handle
(13:34):
this more healthily or more in abetter way, I think one of the
big things is that they're bothvery clear about what they want
and they're also clear aboutwhat's going on for them.
So, you know, sometimes it is assimple as calling a negotiated
timeout, not a timeout that sayswe're done.
(13:56):
You know we'll come backsometime in the future, but hey,
I need 15 minutes.
I really do want to talk aboutthis, but I need 15 minutes.
Hey, I need 15 minutes.
I really do want to talk aboutthis, but I need 15 minutes.
And then I go, rather thangathering the artillery and
getting ready for wars, I'mtrying to just get myself in a
place where we can both engagein a good way.
(14:17):
And then, if 15 minutes isn'tquite long enough, I go to my
partner.
I say, hey, is there a way thatwe can do another 15 minutes?
Again, we really want to dothis.
Or maybe we say tonight at 7.30, let's talk about this.
But it's trying to give thewithdrawer a little bit of space
, that they need to processthings and the pursuer needs to
(14:43):
get their ultimate goal of beingable to talk about things.
And so it's just, it'snavigating that a little bit and
the couples who can do it,they're just clear with what the
overall goal is and thenthey're also, you know,
negotiate and probably negotiatethe timeout steps when you're
not escalated out, steps whenyou're not escalated.
You do that ahead of time andyou just, you know, lay things
(15:16):
out so that when or if the timecomes that you start to escalate
, you can.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
You both know what the plan is.
I imagine right with some ofthis.
It depends on you know some ofthe communication and saying,
hey, you know, I would love tochat about this.
It depends on, um, you knowsome of the communication and
saying, hey, you know, I wouldlove to chat about this, but I,
I feel attacked.
And I know you know what I read.
Your tone goes up and I do, Ifeel attacked.
So is there some type of this?
Both of us, Okay, recognizing?
Oh, I see the pattern and I seemy role in this.
(15:38):
I've got to learn to kind ofkeep my, my tone.
You know, go slow and lowinstead of this.
You know, goes slow and lowinstead of this.
You know loud and and attacking.
So the other person's literallykind of sometimes afraid, being
like, hey, I, we've done thisbefore and it doesn't end well,
I, I'm not going.
You know I refuse to.
But then the you know what'swrong.
I refuse to talk to you unlessyou call it that type of a of a
(15:59):
thing.
But man, it's both somerecognition yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Uh, just the thing that came to mind as you were
talking is that sometimes it'sreally helpful for us to
pursuers.
They're trying to get theirneeds met in a way that actually
pushes their partner away orthat at least decreases the odds
that they'll actually be heardneed.
(16:45):
That's really important and youwant the partners to
acknowledge that each other'sneeds are important.
But how we're getting thoseneeds, how we're trying to meet
those needs, sometimes iscounterproductive.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
There's another concept you studied quite a bit,
Ryan a signal and respond.
I'm not familiar with this.
Tell us more about for couples,what signal and respond means
in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Yeah, and that's actually what I was starting,
just inching into a little bitwith what I just said.
So let me give you just a quickbackground.
In a lot of attachment research, one of the names you'll
sometimes hear about is MaryAinsworth, and she did a lot of
really cool research with mostlymothers and infants and just
(17:32):
watched them and tried tounderstand.
Back in her day the idea wasyou know, I think John Watson
said there are serious knocksahead for the over pampered
child.
John Watson said there areserious knocks ahead for the
over pampered child and therewas this idea that if you
respond to someone's cry, thatyou're reinforcing the cry.
That's a behavioral idea.
(17:53):
And so she ended up showingthat that wasn't the case and
then she developed thislaboratory procedure.
It's called the strangesituation, but the long and the
short of it is that there's aseparation between the caregiver
and the infant.
The caregiver leaves the room,is with another person, the
child is left with anotherperson and it's just there's a
(18:16):
little bit of distress that thechild feels.
Well, they found that it'sreally important when the
caregiver comes back and theylook and see how the child
responds when the caregivercomes back.
And, as you might expect.
You know, some of the childrencry, they're really upset, some
are distressed, but they're notcrying or anything.
But when the caregiver comesthrough the door they go
(18:39):
straight to the caregiver andthey put their hands up and
they're like hold me, you know,and that is a signal.
So one of the things that I didin my research with couples is
I started to look, and it'sactually really clear, in
caregiver infant relationshipsand then I realized, wait a
second, I think it can beapplied to couples, but you do
(19:02):
have some infants that they'llstart towards the parent and
then at one moment they'll kindof veer off because they're not
really sure that if they signalclearly that their needs will
get met.
Or sometimes they're upset andthey're still upset at the
caregiver and they're archingtheir back or they're not being
comforted by the caregiver, theymight go to them, and so all of
(19:26):
these are different signals.
The last two are less clear,but obviously that putting your
hands up and this is what I want, and then you're, you're, you
get what you need, that's aclear signal in couple
relationships.
Sometimes we don't signalclearly what we want.
And again, and there's twoparts to that, but the goal with
(19:51):
that first part is to try andhelp signal clearly.
Responsiveness is the other partand in the work I've done with
parents and children, we try andhelp the parent know that, even
if they don't signal crystalclear, that maybe there's a way
that they can respondappropriately.
(20:11):
But it's kind of this dance oftrying to get us trying to be
attuned and trying to signalclearly and then respond
appropriately.
And the couples that you knowthat are successful.
They have clear signals andthen the other person's attuned
(20:33):
enough that they reach out whenit's most appropriate.
And in fact what I've found isthere's a question that
sometimes people will ask.
Maybe it's implicit but they'llwill you be there for me when
things go right or when thingsgo wrong?
(20:53):
Will you be there both?
When things are going well,will you be there for me when
things are I'm struggling, willyou be there for me?
And so the signaling,responding.
I think a lot of the work thatI do in therapy is to try and
help partners signalappropriately and respond in a
loving, sensitive way.
(21:14):
You know, when you thinkparents and children, it's more
one-sided.
The parent needs to be theresponder, the child needs to be
the signaler, but in couplesit's both Right, definitely.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Just that ability to.
I mean, over the years I'vetried to become better at this
With my wife.
I'm over the years I've triedto become better at this really
with with my wife.
I'm definitely not perfect, butjust to visually see you know,
matt, she's got a lot.
You know we've got a weddingcoming up and the daughter
having a baby and all these wetshowers and plans and stuff I
can sometimes just just see like, okay, I need to respond this
(21:46):
way, or maybe she needs this ormaybe what can I do for her.
So it's more of this.
You know, see it, I can see thesignal that she's giving off is
one often of stress or anxiety,and my ability to okay, respond
or to not bring up, not pileanother stressor on there.
So I'm trying to and sometimesit's visual cues, or you know
even tone of voice or you knowthose sides that she has, and so
(22:09):
I try to.
You know those size that shehas and so I try to to see that
and respond.
But again, it's, it's taken usyeah, I don't know years to try
to pick up on that.
I guess I'm a slow learner,maybe.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Well, and it and it's more complex than just me
saying, hey, let me know whensomething comes up.
I'm not going to know unlessyou tell me.
You know I need to be looking.
But it is true that it is nicewhen our partners can clearly
let us know, hey, this is what Ineed or what.
What some other research hasfound is that, you know, if I
(22:42):
try and support you in a way youknow, you just mentioned
supporting your wife it's greatwhen she can kind of let you
know what she needs, becausethere's a term called support
adequacy, which means you knowhow, how appropriate is the
support that we give.
You could try and support her bytaking out the trash.
(23:03):
You know when she actuallyneeds a hug or something more
emotional, or maybe she doesneed something kind of tangible,
something done.
But it's trying to navigatethat and figuring out how you
can really best show support.
Sometimes you can try andfigure that out just by being
attuned and noticing, andsometimes it's really helpful
(23:26):
when she says, hey, this is whatI need, I need a hug.
Or, yeah, take out the trash.
Hey, will you go pay thesebills?
Or you know, whatever, this iswhat I need, I need a hug, or,
yeah, take out the trash and hey, will you go pay these bills?
Or whatever it might be.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
We'll be right back after this brief message and
we're back, let's dive right inright.
Can you talk just a little bitabout um anger and its role in
relationships today?
(23:58):
Now, anger is always I mean,it's been around right since the
beginning of time but it feelslike um, you know I go, our sons
, you know our kids playlacrosse and football and things
, and it feels like the, thetempers and things are rising
faster.
The triggers and the meanness,the hostility is coming.
I can't help it.
Some of that is happeninginside homes and relationships
(24:22):
today.
Can you tell us a little bitabout I don't know the role of
anger and I guess thedestructive role that it's
playing?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
today.
Well, you know what'sinteresting?
I think a lot of these sorts ofthings.
It's like okay, how do wedefine, how do we define anger,
how do we define some of thethings that are similar to anger
?
And so one way that I coulddefine this is anger has a
function and a role.
It doesn't have to be negative.
(24:52):
Contempt, hostility, those arepretty negative.
It's really hard to say thatthey're ever going to have a
role in relationships.
One of the terms that's used inattachment language is if I feel
like separation, if I feel likesomething's not right, I will
(25:12):
go into a protest.
And so you can imagine thatpure anger, rather than being
hostile, rather than beingcontemptuous, it's a signal.
It's a signal that, hey,something's not quite right.
It's a signal.
It's a signal that hey,something's not quite right.
(25:35):
And it's a protest of, hey,something's not right, we need
to fix this.
It can encourage correctiveaction.
It's kind of like, you know,pain, putting my hand on a stove
.
That signals wait, something'snot right, get your hand off the
stove, right.
And so I think anger inrelationships does not have to
(25:57):
be negative, but it's what we dowith it, and very often it does
turn negative, because any timethat we try and use our anger
to hurt the other emotionally oranything.
Sometimes that's the thing Ifeel hurt.
What's the saying?
Hurt people, hurt people, youknow.
And so then I say things that Idon't mean or you know,
(26:20):
whatever it might be, and so allof those things that's never
good.
But if you look at it as I,still care, and that's what
we'll reframe in therapy.
We try and help them use theiranger productively and not push
their partner away.
But they still care, they stillwant.
(26:40):
It's a form of protest, theywant something to be different
and that's good.
To work with in couples is likea burnt out pursuer, someone who
has stopped caring, and you seethat in relationships,
unfortunately.
Sometimes you see partner onereally wants to work on the
(27:04):
relationship, partner two'suninterested, and that happens
for years.
And finally, partner one's theburnt out pursuer and they're
done.
And then the partner two reallystarts amping up and saying,
okay, we need to do somethingabout this and that's a struggle
, right it.
And so you know there's abalanced form of anger.
(27:25):
There's anger towards self,like deflated anger.
That's no good, that ends upbeing like shame, you know.
And then there's anger turnedoutward, where I'm trying to
hurt you and that's no goodeither.
It's just this balance ofsaying, hey, this happened and
(27:49):
it's not okay and we need todeal with it.
That's anger.
Rather than raising thetemperature, the voice of you
know that turns more tohostility or contempt.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Okay, so the protest I like that word Bringing
something up.
Yeah, I give up trying to doanger, the conflict in a really
healthy way.
I you didn't give up on that.
So it's a very small narrowwindow you're talking about,
isn't it right?
A healthy expression of that.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
I like that word and it does require us to define it
a little differently than whatwe normally, because usually we
say anger and we think that'sbad.
Right, and it can be if wedefine that in terms of
hostility and contempt and thosesorts of things.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You've published research on attachment,
connection and bonding inrelationships.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Can you please give us some practical pointers about
how couples can bond moresolely in their relationships.
Yeah, you know, I mean I thinka big thing and I kind of
mentioned this before, but I'vereally found that we're trying
to connect, we're trying tounderstand how we connect.
Sometimes people are wiredsomewhat differently, so how I
(29:07):
like to be connected with mightbe a little bit different to how
my spouse likes to be connectedwith.
That doesn't mean that you knowsaying kind words.
If maybe she feels love in adifferent way than kind words,
I'm not saying you don't do thatRight, and she should be able
(29:35):
to accept that those kind wordsare meant with love.
But it really is trying tofigure out how can we connect in
the best way possible.
And I think it's a two-partprocess where one is connecting
when things are going well andbeing able to do that, but also
finding ways to connect evenwhen there's a struggle.
And there's two terms One isconflict, one is social support.
(29:59):
Social support is well.
Conflict is the partner, is thesource of my struggle, social
support is.
It may be my work, it may beother things that I'm struggling
with, but the support and thoseprocesses are still the same
and I think attachment theoryreally has helped me understand
(30:21):
how can we reach out, how can webe there for each other when
there's distress, when there'sstruggle, whether the distress
is me or whether it's somethingelse yeah, man, it's such a key
and that's really why we call itstronger marriage connection.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
You know the name of our podcast, our of our podcast,
because how important that,that bond, that attachment,
those little things, that thosebids, the responses, all that um
are to relationships.
It's really what people want isthe stronger connection in
their marriage many of them.
I'm curious as to whether thechallenges that couples are
(31:01):
dealing with have changed overthe past 20 years since you've
been practicing with couples.
Are there common challenges?
Have you seen any upticks inchallenges or specific problems
that couples come in with?
Technology may be one of those,that just that just wasn't
around Technoferrets, thosekinds of things.
But in your experience and Iwork with the students, work
with couples and individualshave you seen some again
(31:23):
patterns or something, anythingthat has really like escalated,
I guess, in I don't know, inrecent years?
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the technology because
that made me think of a few newthings.
But there are some sameculprits that haven't changed.
You know, infidelity affairs, alot of things related to
parenting although that haschanged with technology and
different things of how tonavigate that.
Most couples still will saythat a huge piece of why they're
(31:52):
coming in as communication, andwe always smile at that because
usually there's more than that.
Communication is important, butthere's more than that, I would
say, as I have thought aboutmaybe some nuances that have
emerged over the years.
I think when it comes toparenting, I think technology is
(32:14):
a big one.
I think we've had to navigateand when you mentioned this it
had me think of.
We've had to navigate the useof technology in couple
relationships because it'spretty interesting that I've had
a number of couples who haveconflict over text and they're
(32:36):
big, long texts and for the mostpart I know there's some like
some people decide that maybedoing it over text helps because
there's a little bit moredistance between you know they
can think about things, they canprocess things.
However, what I have found isif you have conflict over text,
(32:59):
you know, you hear about whatpercentage is nonverbal in our
communication.
You know, I've heard up to 90%is nonverbal and you lose that
when you communicate by text isnonverbal and you lose that when
you communicate by text.
And so one of the things thatis challenging and I've
experienced it with someone Itexted with and I don't think
(33:20):
they were even trying to be.
They might have been trying tobe a little snarky, but I read
it in such a way that it wasdevastating to me.
I don't even think the personever realized it, because at one
point I started to realize, oh,this person's just joking, this
is just a fun thing and Ididn't see it that way.
And so there's a lot that getslost with texting.
(33:43):
I think more in Utah, one ofthe things that especially my
students, when I supervise them,what they seem to navigate more
and more are mixed-faithmarriages.
So one partner has transitioned, or they have other beliefs,
transitioned out of a beliefsystem, or they have other
(34:06):
beliefs, and it's beeninteresting to help the
therapist, help the couples,navigate that, because there's a
lot of meaning that we give tospirituality and we take a lot
of that for granted in terms ofthat that matches.
And when it stops matching,then couples really struggle
(34:29):
with.
Okay, what do we do now?
And there's a full gamut that'srun in terms of some couples
being able to live with it andthrive with it and some couples
that don't.
But I'd say that.
And then I think over the last20 years I think we've gotten
way better at being aware oftrauma and it's more of a common
(34:53):
thing that we think about, thatwe talk about there's actually
different types of trauma.
You think of PTSD.
That's life-threatening kind ofsingle event, although it can
happen over time too.
But then there's some scholarsreally like the idea of
developmental trauma that occursover time.
(35:16):
Maybe it's never alife-threatening thing, but it
really causes me to question alot of things in my life and in
my relationship.
And so there's a lot ofdifferent types of trauma, and
trauma can be really disruptiveto relationships because it's a
(35:36):
feeling of powerlessness andwhen you feel powerless you try
and cope by controlling andmaking sure that you can predict
everything, and that can bedisruptive in relationships
either feeling powerless ortrying to control things.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, what about our couples who are in their early
years of marriage?
Brian, many of our listeners, Idon't think it's too unusual to
have struggles those firstyears of marriage.
From a therapist's perspective,what tips and advice do you
recommend, and at what pointshould they maybe reach out for
help from a therapist?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
You know it's interesting.
The more I've thought aboutthis, the more I've recognized
that it is the most amazingthing for couples to come and do
any work that's needed earlyand often I remember seeing a
couple and they were a youngcouple I was younger at the time
too but in the end they werekind of talking and conflicting
(36:38):
about the TV and the remotecontrol and internally I kind of
was like oh really, you'rearguing about the remote.
And yet the more I thoughtabout it, the more I realized I
was so glad that they were therebecause there were patterns
that we were able to work.
(36:59):
They still cared about eachother, they loved each other
very much, but they were havingthese issues that emerged about
seemingly small things, and wewere able to work through the
patterns and the cycles thatthey were enacting with
relatively small issues and theystill cared about each other.
(37:20):
The thing that's the hardestthing is when couples have let
things fester for 10, 20 yearsand then they try and work on it
and by then that reservoir ofcaring and that love, it doesn't
feel the same.
And sometimes, unfortunately,couples start to rewrite history
(37:41):
and you almost listen to themand they're not sure they ever
liked each other, and so I thinkit is the most amazing thing
for young couples to saysomething's not quite right.
Let's just go in and get ittaken care of, because it makes
(38:03):
it so much easier down the road.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
So early, and often you said right Early, and often
that's good advice.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, Amen.
Hey, Ryan, I mentioned at thebeginning of our discussion that
I'd bring up this questionagain If you had to pick one.
I know there's all kinds ofkeys to a strong marriage, but
if you had to pick one, what'syour go-to for a stronger
marriage connection?
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Oh, you know, that's a great question.
Oh, you know that's a greatquestion.
I think, in addition to all thethings I've said, I mean I
think it's really important thatwe give ourselves some race or
some flexibility and werecognize again, there's not one
size fits all.
I think we see so-and-so'smarriage and we think, oh, they
(38:49):
clearly have it all together,they have it all figured out.
What's wrong with me, what'swrong with my partner?
And so I think a big one isbeing able to give all of
ourselves permission to maybenot get it 100% right and to
recognize, hey, get it 100%right.
(39:10):
And to recognize, hey, let'swork on this, let's figure this
out.
And one of the things I'verecognized is I grew up in a
very loving home.
My parents loved me and yet theywere far from perfect and I
didn't necessarily see the bestmodel of how you handle conflict
(39:33):
and challenges and things likethat.
And, as one example, this ismore parent-child, but my dad
was a farmer and there's acertain way you communicate on
the farm and it's mostly whatyou were talking about elevated
voices, things of that nature,maybe some choice words.
(39:54):
And I realized with my kidsgrowing up that I got into
lecture mode really easily,because that's what worked
growing up, and so I thinksometimes it's just being able
to identify what models did Ihave, what do I do, especially
under high stress, what do Iresort to, what works for me,
(40:15):
what's good, and then what do Ineed to set aside?
And so, you know, with my kidsit was really trying hard, when
I felt that, to say, okay, whatwould teaching look like, rather
than what would lecturing looklike, because they're not the
same thing.
And so I guess that's one thingthat I've learned over time
(40:35):
with my therapy and with my lifejust give ourselves grace, and
then also try and look and saywhat do I want to keep, what do
I want to take, what do I wantto learn?
And to recognize that we're,you know we're we're constantly
learning and evolving.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Right, I'm got to say this.
I'm so glad that you said that,and I don't know if anyone Liz
has ever said that, because mymind goes back to couples and
even these.
I remember at these early yearsyou know I might lose it or she
might lose it, and we saysomething and then you know the
tone's not helpful, and then weapologize, and then you know
what, the next day or the nextweek we do it again and you know
(41:17):
the tone goes up.
I'm like man, you know, Iapologize but I did it again.
And so I think I think you'reexactly right that we shouldn't
expect this perfection thatwe're growing together.
Give grace, forgiveness even ofourselves, and at the time I
really am sorry, she really issorry, and then man tempers get
going again or whatever we sayand do things, and so I think
(41:39):
couples can get talking aboutpatterns, because pattern are
really kicking themselves andmade like man I keep apologizing
with or my spouse keepsapologizing man, they keep keep
losing it.
So anyway, I think that that'smore profound than at least as
it comes across at first for me.
So I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Yeah, you bet, and you know, as a therapist, I
would reframe that too.
What you just said is see,you're still trying.
Yeah, it's not going as youwant it to, but I'm so glad
you're still trying, because,again, that's when couples
really struggle is when they getto that point where they don't
feel like trying anymore.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Apathy.
Right, that is frightening,you're right.
Well, dr Ryan Seidel, pleasetell us where can our listeners
find out more about you, theCounseling Center there, atu,
and any other helpful resourcesyou'd like to share, please.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Yeah, you know.
So I, yeah, like was saidbefore, I'm the program director
at the Marriage and FamilyTherapy Program in Utah State,
so you can find me on the HumanDevelopment Family Studies
website there and the Marriageand Family Therapy website.
I've got a small privatepractice in North Logan called
the Center for Couples andFamilies, cache Valley, and then
(42:56):
, yeah, our students are amazingand they do great work and it's
the Sorenson Center forClinical Excellence, the
behavioral health clinic.
It has psychology and marriageand family therapy, and so I'm
kind of in all those places.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Awesome Thanks, ryan.
Well, for our listeners, we'llbe sure to put links in the show
notes, direct links to thewebsites where you can find out
more about Ryan and the senderand the services there and
resources offered there.
And before we let you go, we'dlike to end with a takeaway of
the day.
Ryan, is there a take-homemessage?
Right, if you could give ashout out?
So a principle, a tip forcouples emphasize a principle.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
What would it be?
I think you know I've used thatword, but attunement.
I think if everyone reallytries to attune and really
notice what's going on for theirpartner, I think the world
would be way different if wewere better attuned to one
(44:00):
another.
You know, our society is suchwhere you know we're primed to
say how you doing Dave, how youdoing Liz, and you're supposed
to tell me fine or good orwhatever, and I'm not talking
about in casual conversation,but it's just really important
to be really attuned and torecognize Dave, how are you
(44:22):
really doing Liz, how are youreally doing?
And to be able to talk aboutthat.
And I think what I've found Ican't remember what happened the
other day, but someone wassuper vulnerable and it just
really led to a lot morecloseness and a positive thing.
And so I think that attunementand being able to attune to
(44:45):
someone's vulnerability, it justbrings closeness a lot more.
And sometimes we put walls upand we don't want to show that,
but that's how we gain closenessin our relationships, in our
marriages and in a lot of whatwe do.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Yeah, and that takes risk, right, it takes, I'm going
to open up and if I get burnedand I may close up and not risk
again and be vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
But man, a vulnerability, yeah, when it is
reciprocated, shared, responsive, uh, amen, that is and the hope
is, if you open up and I'mattuned, I won't miss it, and
that that will be different.
Because that's the big thing is, why would I open up if you're
not going to respond?
Because it does happen, youknow, something's like oh well,
(45:30):
you, it's been a rough day.
Oh well, that's too bad, we'llsee you later, you know.
And so it's.
It's trying to to do both.
Yeah, love it.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
What about you?
What's your takeaway in the daywith Dr Ryan seal?
Speaker 2 (45:43):
You know I am touched by the signal and respond that
question Will you be there forme?
That's what I really want toknow.
It reminds me of Dr SueJohnson's work a little bit.
Ryan, right, are you there forme?
Accessible, responsive, engaged?
I love that.
I think my husband's actuallybetter at it than I am.
Thank you for the reminder,dave.
(46:05):
What's a rich nugget for you,my friend and with our time
together with Dr Ryan.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yeah, thanks for all kinds of great insights.
For me it's with dr ryan.
Yeah, thanks for all kinds ofgreat insights.
For me it's the uh, thepatterns.
You know to pause and and lookat patterns and it does.
It takes kind of stepping out,because when you're in the
pattern and in the cycle it'sreally tough to see yourself, um
, in it.
So it does take a little bit ofa pause.
Perspectives in this pattern, um, looking to say, okay, we keep
(46:29):
doing this, how do we get out ofthis?
What's my part in this?
What is it that I really need?
What do they need?
And then I'm going to just sayit again for couples, if you
feel like you're stuck in thispattern, you need help, getting
out, reach out, reach out forhelp.
Therapists, counselors can beso very um, helpful Just another
(46:52):
person to kind of help you bothsee and improve your
relationship.
So I hope that you don't, youdon't hesitate um, but that you
reach out for help when you feellike you need it.
Ryan, thanks again, my friend,for for coming on and, uh, sure,
appreciate you, your wisdom andyour time today.
Thank you, it's been a pleasure.
All right, friends, that doesit for us.
(47:13):
We will see you again next timeon another episode of the
Stronger Marriage Connectionpodcast.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
I just have to say Utah State is lucky to have you
both Put your seat on Dr Schramm.
Good for you and remember dearfriends and family, it's the
small things that create astronger marriage connection.
Take care now.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(47:55):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(48:16):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(48:40):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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