October 6, 2025 • 38 mins
We explore how Relational Life Therapy helps couples move from harshness to loving firmness, from accuracy wars to curiosity, and from quiet withdrawal to active repair. Kristy Gaisford shares personal lessons, the five dysfunctional patterns, and practical tools for daily change.
• the five dysfunctional patterns: being right, controlling, unbridled self-expression, retaliation, withdrawal
• start with self: sturdiness, humility, owning impact
• customer-service rule: turn-taking and sequencing complaints
• the feedback wheel: story, feeling, request, future
• loving firmness over harshness in tough talks
• the adaptive child versus wise adult self
• relationship reckoning: grieving the ideal and choosing the real
• harmony, disharmony, repair as the normal cycle
• questions that open repair and end defensiveness
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_05 (00:03):
Have you ever felt stuck in the same old patterns
in your marriage, struggling tocommunicate what you feel deep
inside?
Harshness, frustration,resentment, or just feeling
emotionally distant?
On today's episode, Dr.
Liz and I welcome ChristyGazeford to the show, and she
shares all kinds of helpful andpractical tips from relational
life therapy, things you canstart doing today to improve
(00:25):
your relationship connection,starting with yourself.
Christy Gazeford has a master'sin social work from Columbia
University.
She has a private practice inSalt Lake City and she
specializes in relationships.
She runs relationship boot campsin Salt Lake City and New York
City.
She's passionate aboutrelationships, the anagram,
learning, and being outdoors.
(00:47):
We hope you enjoy the show.
SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection.
I'm Dr.
Liz Hale, the psychologist,along with Dr.
Dave Schram, the professor andmy esteemed colleague.
Together, we have dedicated ourlife's work to bringing you the
best we can find in validmarital research, along with a
few tips and tools to help youcreate the marriage of your
(01:15):
dreams.
Well, Dave, finally I have seenthe light, right?
I don't know what took me solong, but I have loved adding
the tool of relational lifetherapy, RLT for short, to my
practice, especially with thecouples who are on the brink of
divorce.
And this is not a new name toyou, right, Dave?
(01:35):
You've heard of Terry Real.
SPEAKER_05 (01:37):
Absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
Oh gosh.
Well, wish I started it earlier,but I'm here now.
Well, I'm thrilled that we havethis opportunity, you and me, to
sit down with Utah's own ChristyGazeford, a licensed marriage
therapist and expert in RLT.
What I love most about thismodel is its bold honesty with
couples, individuals.
It's deeply compassionate andthe powerful outcomes for
(02:01):
couples.
Well, Christy has beentransforming relationships
through this work, and we'reblessed to dive into her
personal and her professionaljourney.
So, Christy, welcome to StrongerMarriage Connection.
Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
What a treat this will be.
Can we please begin with alittle of your own personal
(02:22):
marriage journey and what drewyou to relational life therapy?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
Um, well, you hear that we often teach what we
needed to learn the most.
So my personal journey is I wasuh really struggling in my
marriage and I didn't know whatto do.
And I'd read tons of books andnothing seemed to help.
And I got this email that said,this man named Terry Real was
(02:48):
coming to the University ofMinnesota to talk about how to
have the new rules of marriage,how to have a better marriage.
And so I thought, okay, I shouldgo.
I'm looking for help.
So I went to hear him speak.
And I remember just feeling likehe was talking to me directly
and just furiously taking notesall day.
(03:09):
And there's two things that hesaid that really changed my
life.
And the first one was, you don'thave a right to misbehave, no
matter what anyone else is doingto you.
And that really rocked mebecause I had been misbehaving
really badly.
And I had been justifying it.
(03:30):
Like, what am I supposed to do?
Just not do anything when myhusband's acting like this, or
am I just supposed to take itand not defend myself?
And but the problem is I reallydidn't like who I was becoming,
and and I really didn't, Ireally didn't like myself when I
acted that way.
And so that day I decided tostop doing that.
(03:50):
And um the next thing he saidwas, if you don't dare to rock
the boat, nothing will everchange.
And he said, Many women that arepleasers that continue to stay
in unhealthy relationships endup getting physically ill from
taking on the stress, and thenthey lose their life or their
(04:12):
relationship anyway.
So um that's kind of myintroduction.
And so I did both of thosethings.
I stopped reacting poorly and Iand I did rock the boat, and I
did get divorced.
Um and but that was that was theright thing for me after trying
(04:33):
and trying and trying.
Um, but then I started trainingwith Terry and um figured if it
changed my life and then I couldit would help me in my in my
career to help other people aswell.
So I got certified in relationallight therapy and I got
remarried.
And we, my husband and I usethese skills every day.
(04:55):
And when we don't, we look asbad as everybody else.
But when we do, it really helps.
SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
Oh, I think that's a beautiful introduction to RLT.
I've I've just been so impressedwith it.
It's really made a difference inmy own practice already,
Christy, and I'm pretty new withit.
Uh, it's I find it reallypowerful.
I don't know.
Dave, you already knew about it.
You were way ahead of me.
SPEAKER_05 (05:18):
No, I'm I'm anxious to learn more about this uh
today, Christy.
You say that the the firstrelationship to work on is the
one you have with yourself.
And I really like that.
We say you know quite a bit hereon the podcast, you know, a
happy, healthy we starts with ahappy, healthy me.
Uh, what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Yeah, I think it's it's essential to have a good
relationship with yourselfbecause if you don't, it's I
like to think of it as beingsturdy, being sturdy enough to
handle difficult feedback, beingsturdy enough to be able to say,
this is hard, but I can see mypartner.
You know, if you're if you havean unhealthy self-esteem, you're
(06:00):
gonna be way too dependent onyour partner to make you feel
good, and that doesn't lead to agood relationship, or you're not
gonna be able to handlecloseness and you're gonna
withdraw and just not be able tohandle intimacy.
So it really, it really isessential that we can be kind
enough and and be sturdy enoughin our own self that we can
(06:24):
interact with others in ahealthy way.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
I really love that.
Be kind and sturdy, internallyand externally.
Yes.
I, you know, there's uh you talka lot about the five
dysfunctional patterns in RLT.
Could we do a quick rundown ofthem, please?
Though where do you start tohelp people unravel?
What areas?
Yeah, there the first is beingright.
SPEAKER_00 (06:50):
So just the whole, yes, the whole objectivity
battles, you know.
I'm you said that, no, youdidn't.
You said this, no, I didn't.
But you know, the things whereyou could just go around and
around.
And if there's one thing I'velearned doing years of couples
therapy is that there is noobjective reality.
We see things so differentlythat you could argue for the
(07:13):
rest of your life and not agreeon what happened because you saw
things or experienced themdifferently.
So that's the first the firstone.
The second one is controllingyour partner, and that can be
direct control or indirectcontrol through manipulation.
But people, it's it's anillusion that you if if you get
(07:34):
people to do what you wantedthem to, it always comes with
resentment.
So controlling your partner.
The third is unbridledself-expression, just saying
things that are not helpful.
You know, that could be anywherefrom saying opinions that are
hurtful, like I'm just not asattracted to you as I used to
(07:56):
be, or or just like screamingand yelling and name-calling and
swearing and all of thosethings, or just bringing up
things that happened five, 10,15 years ago and just completely
rehashing.
And it's anything that is notproductive, it's just kind of
hurting your partner.
(08:17):
Is that where harshness comesin?
That line.
Yeah, there's nothing harshnessdoes that loving firmness can't
do better.
Right.
It's there's no there's no roomfor harshness in a relationship,
it only harms.
And then the fourth isretaliation.
And you know, retaliation can behuge.
And those stories make the news,you know, like the man that gets
(08:42):
broken up with and burns downhis girlfriend's house.
Like I'm I'm saying thisfacetiously, but it does happen,
right?
But it can also be very subtle,like a withdrawal of attention
or a like, I'm not gonna be aswarm to you because I don't
think you're being very warm tome.
And it's like we match eachother's energy and until we
(09:02):
continue to both withdraw.
That's a form of retaliation.
And then the last one iswithdrawal, which is just
checking out of therelationship.
I'm just not even gonna reallybe here.
I might be sitting here, but I'mnot really here.
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
Yeah.
Oi, those are powerful.
Thank you.
Thank you for running downthose.
So we've got um being right,right?
Being controlling, unbridledself-expression, retaliation,
and withdrawal.
Powerful.
Thank you for explaining those.
SPEAKER_05 (09:37):
Yeah.
It I love that you break thosedown like that because sometimes
we hear broad words likecommunication or you know,
conflict or something.
But actually going down intothose and then giving examples,
it's like, oh yeah, I canrelate, or I've seen that, or
man, yeah, I need to look in themirror and like, oh, I can see
how hard to look in the mirror,Dave, sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (09:56):
Oh, sure is from here if you're sitting in my
seat.
SPEAKER_05 (10:00):
Yeah, that's right.
Christy, you say that it's it'sactually good to, let's say,
quote unquote, rock the boat alittle bit.
So you want couples to lean inand and deal with each other,
right?
Does so does this mean that toooften we disengage in a way
that's that's harmful to therelationship?
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
Yes.
It's like um people try a fewtimes to address something
difficult and they'll get a bigdefensive reaction.
And so they start to give up.
Like I don't I don't know how tobring this up because every time
I do, my partner gets upset.
So I guess I can't talk about itanymore.
And then then the people juststart to slowly withdraw and
(10:39):
avoid tough conversations, andthen it can turn into a
situation where the couple justfeels like roommates.
Like we're not fighting, butwe're we're not close, and we're
both keeping a safe distance sothat we don't start fights, but
it's nothing's being addressed,and it's like the marriage is
slowly dying, where but it looksokay on the surface.
SPEAKER_05 (11:04):
I even think Christine, man, you nailed it.
I feel like um just again, I'mnot a therapist, just an
observer.
But more people morerelationships kind of uh end by
that slow leak in the air ratherthan a blowout tire type of a
thing.
Is that me?
And it sounds like that this iswhat you're talking about.
It's I I'm not gonna risk itanymore.
You know, it's just notworthwhile.
I'm not gonna bring that up.
I'm not gonna share because itblows up or it's a yeah, it's uh
(11:28):
it's it is, it's risky uh safetyputting up that wall.
I'm not even gonna bring this upbecause it yeah, every time it
ends in a in an ar he winnerfight.
So I may as well not bring itup.
And that and in my mind it makessense.
Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm justgonna pull back.
I'm not gonna bring that upanymore.
But yeah, you say that that it'sthat's a pattern that, yeah,
you'll slowly just kind of driftapart.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
Yeah, I actually get a lot more worried when when I
see a couple and that it justfeels like there's no energy in
the relationship than whensomebody's fighting a lot,
because at least the fightersare still passionate enough that
they care.
And the ones where they've kindof just lost the energy, it's
almost like they've they'vegiven up.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Oh boy.
Well, I I also love this nextaspect of RLT relational life
therapy of who's right, who'swrong, and who cares, right?
It's but it's not always easy tolet go of accuracy, is it?
And yet you say it's soimportant to do so.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
Um, is kind of what I started saying before, but it
it truly is people have suchdifferent lenses that they see
the world through.
I mean, if you think about ourchildhoods were different, our
family of origins weredifferent, our personalities are
different, our life experience,so many things are different.
And so when we start to argueabout who's right or wrong, it
(12:53):
it's it's never gonna get usanywhere.
So the the thing to break it iscuriosity.
Okay, I don't see it that way,but it's so interesting that my
partner does.
I wonder, I wonder how how mypartner does see this.
I'm gonna be very curious.
Like, help me understand how yousee the situation.
Help me understand how thatmakes you feel.
(13:16):
And if I can understand, then Ican I can reach through to my
partner, go, okay, now if I sawit that way, I would feel that
way too.
I can I can see that.
Do you have a moment to let meunder explain to you how I see
it?
And can we come to anunderstanding of each other's
differences rather than who'sright or wrong?
(13:38):
Because there is no right orwrong.
It's just different.
SPEAKER_05 (13:43):
I love that.
The understanding, thecompassion of trying to put
yourself in their shoes.
Yeah, it's not a right or wrong,but it's like, oh, I can see why
you do the things that you do orthink the way that you think,
because now I can I canunderstand it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
Oh okay.
Like no wonder, no wonder youfeel that way.
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Yes, yes, it is.
And it's nice to remember thatpeople do what people do makes
sense to them.
So I I often tell my clients,assume good intent and then ask
from that place.
I assume you did this with goodintention.
So can you help me understandthe way you saw it?
SPEAKER_02 (14:23):
Yep.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
Because I don't see it that way, but I'll leave that
one up, right?
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_04 (14:31):
Um we'll be right back after this brief minutes.
SPEAKER_03 (14:45):
And we're back.
Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_05 (14:53):
And that taking turns with expressing feelings
is similar to coming up to thecustomer service window.
Okay, so this has me reallyintrigued.
Tell me more.
SPEAKER_00 (15:02):
Yeah, this is something Terry, Terry says.
He said, if going, it's likegoing to a customer service
window and saying, hey, thistoaster I brought, I bought
broke.
And the person at the countersaying, Oh yeah, well, my
microwave broke.
And then you're just sittingthere going, well, now what?
We both have problems and weboth have complaints, and no
(15:22):
one's gonna be heard.
So the the rule of therelationship therapy really is
the person that comes to youwith a problem or an issue,
they're in the speaker role.
And it's your job as theirpartner to be the listener.
You're there to help resolve theconcern that they brought to
you.
That's not the time for you tosay, oh, it's time for concerns.
(15:43):
Let me go get all of the onesI've stored up, which I used to
do, and it doesn't work, I cantell you that.
So um it has to be differentroles and it has to be at
different times.
So many, I mean, I see thisevery day.
Somebody comes with a with acomplaint, hey, it really hurt
my feelings when you did this.
And the very first sentence outof their partner's mouth is,
(16:06):
well, you did this, or well,what about last time when you
did it?
And it's like the person's neverheard, and then you can see what
happens, right?
It just goes on and on.
So if you can really rememberthat it's two different roles,
and it and you if you have acomplaint, you have to bring it
up.
You can't piggyback on yourpartner's complaint.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
I really I do.
I can I can imagine thatcustomer service hat, right?
I just I try to think aboutokay, I'm gonna go first or I'm
gonna be the listener.
I'm gonna try to fix this brokenmicrowave without talking about
my broken toaster.
I think I thought that was justbrilliant.
I've even had my clients wear ahat, like take turns wearing the
hat.
I that's what I that's what Ienvision is a great little hat.
(16:51):
Customer service.
How can I help you?
Oh here, here's a bold statementthat we really need some help
with.
I think it's just so cool.
But um, here it goes, Dave.
Learn to work with the partneryou're with instead of the one
you deserve.
(17:11):
Let's explain that, Christine.
Oh, you're the one to do thisexplaining to me.
SPEAKER_00 (17:16):
Well, there is a certain there, there's a certain
amount of grief that comes withintimacy.
And what I mean by that is thatat some level, we all long for
the divine.
We long for this partner whowill completely complete us, who
will um who will satisfy all ofour needs, who will say all of
(17:38):
the right things and comfort andheal us.
There's a part of us fromchildhood that longs to find
this person, right?
And what we get is a willfullylimited human being.
And the difference between whatwe long for and what we get is
called grief.
(17:59):
And learning, knowing thatthat's something that will come
in any relationship because noone's perfect, and being able to
grieve that is maturity.
And one thing that Terryteaches, I think is one of his
most powerful teachings, is therelationship reckoning.
And what that is, is when youhave asked and asked for
(18:22):
something, and you're it's veryclear that even though I've
asked for this over and over,it's clear at this point that
I'm not gonna get it.
You need to ask yourself, am Igetting enough from this person
to make it worth my while togrieve what I'm not gonna get?
And if the answer is yes, thenyou you do the work of grieving
(18:45):
that and you let it go.
And then you focus on all thereasons you chose to stay, and
you realize that you're not avictim of the relationship you
chose to stay for these reasons.
If if you don't do that, you cancarry that res you can stay
anyway, but carry thatresentment with you throughout
your relationship.
(19:06):
So I think that's reallypowerful.
SPEAKER_01 (19:09):
Yes.
And so would you uh most couplesyou work with are have to do a
relationship relationshipreckoning?
SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
Um, I I believe we all have to do it at some level.
You know, am I gonna continue tobe upset and resentful that my
partner's just not giving methis thing?
I mean, I don't know everyonewho anyone who got everything
that they dreamed of.
And at some point, you do haveto let that go and say, yeah,
(19:37):
but I got this and this andthis, and it's worth it for me.
And if it's not, that's when youhave to make another really
difficult choice.
You know, I know it isn't worthit for me.
So what do I do now?
Because I'm not gonna be avictim of my relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (19:55):
So learning isn't that cool, Dave?
SPEAKER_05 (19:57):
That's a powerful excerpt.
I never really thought about itsitting down and actually going
through that, kind of workingthrough that, because I I think
that's probably pretty normalfor for all of us to think like,
oh, I wish they were a littleless like this, or more like
this person, or see this orthat, and kind of harbor that
for yeah, years instead of beinglike, okay, they're not like
(20:19):
that.
But this is these are thequalities.
I'm gonna focus on the 80% orwhatever it is that I truly love
and admire and and work throughor let go of that 20% and quit
trying to make them into that,uh but really accept and love
them for who you did marry, notwho you thought you married.
SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
Yes, yes, and think how much stronger your
relationship would be if youcould do that.
It's pretty powerful.
SPEAKER_05 (20:46):
Yeah, really cool.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Ah, I like that so much.
Um wow.
You know, so many of us, Ithink, still think that if we're
in conflict, there must besomething wrong, or I married
the wrong person.
But I I love this of RLT thatwe're constant in constant flux
of harmony, disharmony, andrepair.
That's really the good news,isn't it, Christine?
SPEAKER_00 (21:08):
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Um, we're if you're in indisrepair at times, you're
normal.
But that is the state ofrelationships, and and it starts
when we're born.
Our first relationship with ourmother is a constant state of
harmony, disharmony, and repair,right?
The baby the baby cries and themother comes.
Um, so when we can accept thatthat's just part of being in a
(21:32):
relationship, it's reallypowerful because we can stop
catastrophizing when things arein disrepair and making it worse
because it's easy to go, oh,here we go again.
I knew it.
I knew they were like this ordoing it again, and just kind of
catastrophize until we go offthe rails.
Um, I think the biggest problemI see is that none of us really
(21:55):
learned how to have a healthyrepair.
So there's a lot of couples thathave harmony, disharmony, shove
it under the rug after a littlewhile.
Harmony, disharmony, shove, youknow, and the the bigger issues
are are not actually repaired.
But yeah, it's normal in everyrelationship.
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
The repair is the most crucial part of that
pattern.
SPEAKER_05 (22:19):
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
It feels like that's almostbecome a theme, right, Liz.
We've talked with anotheranother guest recently about the
importance of a repair and howthat goes because we all need to
do it and we need to do itbetter because we can think
we're doing it better, but it'salmost almost selfishly, right?
Or making more of a mess orcreating more of a mess.
(22:40):
And then we complain about themess because we provoke this
person to say or do thesethings.
SPEAKER_01 (22:45):
Um Christy, do you mind if we jump into what is
some of the repair with RLT,Christy?
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
Um well, one of the most powerful tools that we
teach is the feedback wheel, anduh and what that looks like is
this.
Um when you I'll do an easy one.
When you uh showed up late, whenyou came home at 6 30 and you
told me you'd be home at 5 45,the story I told myself, or what
(23:14):
I made up about it, is that youare disrespectful of my time and
that you think your time is moreimportant than mine, and I made
up that you're selfish.
And that makes me feel sad andfrustrated and kind of angry to
(23:35):
be honest.
Um in the future, I would askthat if you're gonna be late,
that you text me and let meknow, so that I'm not sitting
around in limbo for 45 minutes.
Is that something you feel likeyou could do?
And the reason this it'spowerful is because you you're
you're telling your partner yourstory.
(23:55):
You're not saying it's true.
You're owning that this is themeaning I gave it, this is how I
felt, and you're ending with achance for your partner to get
out of it.
It's a future request.
It's not getting stuck in thepast in something they can't
change.
You're always late, you alwaysdo this to me, you you're never
on time.
You didn't, you know, then thepartner's like, oh, I there's
(24:16):
nothing I can do.
Um, but that's one way that canbe used in many different
scenarios.
Love that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
Feedback wheel.
And then isn't there astatement?
I love that statement of whatlike maybe with the customer
service hat, like what what canI do to make this better for
you?
Right?
If I am the listener, is that doI understand that right?
Yes, I can do it.
Yes, yes.
What can I do right now thatwould help you feel better?
What can I do right now thatwould help you feel better?
I love that too.
(24:45):
What can I do right now thatwould help you feel better?
Oh, cool.
SPEAKER_05 (24:50):
Yeah, just the way that we slow down and instead of
that that meanness or the thatharshness, you brought that
harshness um a few minutes ago.
I I really feel like, yeah, someof that I once heard, you know,
the difference between a happynow and happy marriage is
leaving a few things left unsaideach day.
You know, just like don't don'tsay those those mean things that
that stir that that pot again.
(25:12):
Um I I love this common RLTphrase, Chris, you said
harshness does nothing thatloving firmness doesn't do
better.
Ah, I love it.
What what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
I think you can be very firm, but uh in a very
loving way.
Like this I'm telling you rightnow, I'm really upset and this
doesn't work for me.
And I'm I'm I'm asking that youchange because if you don't
change, I'm gonna continue to behurt by this and I mean it.
And I don't think we are we'retaught how to say firm things in
(25:46):
a loving way, and so usually bythe time we're we're at the
breaking point, we we say themin a very angry way.
Or um, like I didn't realizeuntil I found RLT that you can
say things without emoting them.
You can tell someone you'reangry without emoting anger,
which really turns people off,right?
(26:08):
And I really didn't even knowthat.
I thought if you were angry bythat point you were gonna show
that you were angry, you know?
But you can say really firmthings in a very loving way.
I love you and I'm reallyunhappy.
And I need I need to I need tosee some change in this area.
SPEAKER_05 (26:31):
Yeah, firmness with in a loving way, with kindness.
Uh yeah, that's powerful.
Man.
This is great.
Let's go for a uh Liz, you havethree more hours so we can just
keep talking about it.
I know, I know it.
SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
I do.
I love this so much.
I really do.
This is it makes some sense,right?
And I don't know if anything isreally too new, but yeah, I
don't know how he's just beenable to kind of I don't know,
narrow it down, really, reallygive some strong sentiments, and
he's not afraid to tellindividuals the truth either.
Of like, do you want the goodnews or the bad news?
Yeah, right.
(27:04):
The good news is I really love,I think you're a good man.
Bad news is you're wrong.
You're wrong.
Yeah, you're you're hurting alot of people.
You're hurting a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02 (27:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
How does that does that go very well, Christy, when
you're doing it with an actualcouple?
You've had to, I'm I'm sure,call people out.
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
It actually does work really well as long as they
can tell that you really do lovethem and you really are rooting
for them.
And you really are separatingthem from their bad behavior.
Like, I know this isn't who youreally are at your core, but
there is a part of you, thisadaptive child, that is causing
a lot of pain.
(27:46):
And so you're you're separatingthem from this part of them
because it isn't all of them,there is a really good part of
them.
But when their adaptive childtakes over, it's not a great
part of them.
And it does cause harm in therelationship.
But if you can start helpingthem see the difference and
creating this allergy to the badbehavior and integrating it,
(28:08):
yeah.
Um, they can start to changebecause they don't want to be
like that anymore.
SPEAKER_04 (28:16):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
SPEAKER_03 (28:29):
And we're back.
Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
Adaptive child is going to be a new term to our
audience.
Do you do you mind justexpressing what that is a little
bit?
How adaptive children becomemaladaptive adults.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Yes, it is a big part of RLT.
And it's the adaptive child isthe part of us that was hurt in
childhood in many differentways, and we all have one.
And it's the part of us that hadto adapt in childhood to
survive.
So maybe we had to become verypleasing and go along to get
along so we don't rock the boat,or maybe we had to really stand
(29:03):
up for ourselves and be kind ofaggressive because nobody
respected our boundaries.
Or there's many ways, but thatpart of us that that adapted in
childhood is maladaptive in ouradult relationships.
It never is helpful to be thechild that's so pleasing that
your partner doesn't even knowwhat you want or who you are,
(29:25):
and you start getting walkedover and then resentful.
It doesn't help to be superharsh and controlling or
dominating in an adultrelationship.
So it's learning to see your owndysfunction and where it's
coming out in the relationshipand taming that part of you.
Oh, I see you.
I know you want to come out andtake control right now, but I
(29:48):
it's okay, I got it.
This wise part of me, I'm gonnatake control.
You can you can take a seat.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
Yeah, to the um adaptive child.
So Okay, I got that.
She can just yeah, stand behindme or that's pretty cool.
I used to kind of, I don't know,I I would used to poo-poo if you
don't mind.
I can't think of another wordfor that um inner child work,
you know, that was so popularback in the day with Bradshaw.
I just didn't really understandit or get it.
But the the more I work withcouples, especially those that
(30:18):
are really stuck, where they areat that crossroads, we we stay
or we go.
Um I I get it.
I really I need I needed moretools to help them get unstuck.
That's where LLT has really beena gift.
Yeah.
I agree.
It's very powerful.
SPEAKER_05 (30:37):
Christy, it's a tradition here on our show,
Stronger Marriage Connection,um, that we love to ask a couple
of questions.
The following question (30:45):
what do you believe is the key to a
stronger marriage connection?
SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
So I'm gonna tell a very quick story.
There was a man who'd beenmarried like 60 years, and
somebody asked him, What's thekey to a happy marriage?
And he said, It's really easy.
I just get up every day and Ilook in the mirror and I say to
myself, You're no prize either.
(31:11):
And I I do think that that isthe key on some level, because I
think it takes humility andcuriosity and the ability to
really know yourself and thegood and the bad.
And it's hard to be able to takenegative feedback, but as soon
as you can learn to say, you'reright, I can be like that, and I
(31:35):
did do that, and I'm reallysorry.
You you can stop any fight.
Like as long as soon as yourpartner admits what they did,
it's like now I can move on.
Like I can let this go nowbecause you get it.
Like so many of the fights arejust wasted energy defending our
(31:55):
bad behavior.
But if if you can if you can seeyour bad behavior and it and own
it and work on it and mean it, II think you can you can repair
anything.
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
Yeah.
When a partner can just say, Ohgosh, you're right.
I you're right, I do that.
It's kind of like the darkclouds part and the sun comes
through, and it's like, oh thankGod.
I don't have to keep hitting himover the head with it.
He gets it or hitting her overthe head with it.
Yeah, that's the kind of gift wecan give our partners in return.
You have some great resourcesfor our podcast, dear Christy.
(32:30):
And where can our listeners,viewers go to discover more
about you and the relationshipboot camp that's coming up the
end of September?
We'll add that to our show notesfor easy access.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
Yeah, uh, my website is relationallifecounseling.com.
So you can find me there in myyeah, I'm doing a boot camp the
end of September for couplesusing all of these relational
life therapy tools.
It was it was designed by TerryReal and it's it's really
powerful.
Two days.
SPEAKER_01 (33:01):
Two-day boot camp, gosh.
And is there something powerfulbeing with other couples?
Because part of me is cry aboutthat.
SPEAKER_00 (33:07):
I think it's so powerful because it takes away
the shame.
You're just sitting in this roomwith strangers, and after it
only takes a few minutes torealize, oh, we all do these
things.
We all experience these things.
It's not just us because I thinkway too often we're so alone in
our own relationship becauseyou've you can't go talk about
(33:28):
it to people.
You can't, you feel disloyal,like saying bad things about
your own partner.
And so you're kind of likesuffering in silence and feeling
like the only one.
But in in a boot camp, you juststart realizing it's okay that
I'm flawed, because everyoneelse in the room is too, and
everyone else in the world is,and we didn't learn better, we
(33:48):
didn't, we don't know better,but but now that we can learn,
we can change and we can dobetter, and also you can see
like beauty and and the beautyin other flawed human beings,
and it helps you see the beautyin yourself and the flaws, but
it's like it's all okay.
There's no shame in this.
It's like let's just figure itout so we can be happier.
SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_05 (34:15):
Yeah, yeah, this has been super helpful.
I've learned a lot, um, Christy.
Hey, before we let you go, welike to end with our what we
call a takeaway of the day.
Is there a take-home message youwant our listeners to remember
from our discussion?
SPEAKER_00 (34:26):
Yeah, I would say um to remember, the only person we
can really change is ourselves.
So it's so tempting to learnabout new tools and think, I
wish my partner would do this.
You know, I I hope he heard thator something.
But if we can start withourselves, and it's it's such a
skill to be able to receivedifficult feedback.
(34:48):
But if you could ask yourpartner, what is it like to be
with me?
What are the good things andwhat is the most challenging
thing about being my partner?
SPEAKER_01 (34:59):
That's a great question, isn't it?
It takes a lot of courage to askthat and to hear the answer and
to speak the answers.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:05):
So say that again.
Tell say that again.
What is it like to be mypartner?
What are the good things andwhat are the hardest parts about
being with me?
And it does take a lot ofcourage, but if you can ask that
and sit with the response andreally kind of metabolize it and
go, okay.
Because we cannot change what wecan't see.
(35:28):
And part of our growth path hasto be seeing all of ourselves,
the good and the bad.
If we can't see it, we're justgonna keep repeating it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:40):
Wow.
SPEAKER_05 (35:41):
Yeah, so much uh to take away.
Liz, what are you taking awayfrom our discussion with
Christie?
SPEAKER_01 (35:46):
Wow.
Well, you know, I this is partof RLT, but it was a little bit
more of a story, but just themirror work that you're
suggesting, right?
The the the man, the woman inthe mirror, and uh making peace
there, and not being harsh withthat person either any more than
we don't want to be harsh withour partner.
And so that that quote of you'reno prize either.
(36:07):
We are just all mere mortals.
Mm-hmm.
And what about you, Dave?
What's the golden nugget that'sgonna stay with you long after
our visit with Christy Gazeberg?
SPEAKER_05 (36:17):
Yeah, you know, it's maybe this whole idea of this
humility versus harshness, youknow, this humility to to look
inside, to let some of thosethings go that we wish our
partner was more of or less of.
And then, yeah, and then say,hey, yeah, I'm not I'm not a
jay.
What's the hardest part ofliving with me?
Uh I I can't imagine, buthonestly, just asking that
(36:38):
question, not not in a self-beatmyself up way, right?
But in a in an honest um look inthe mirror and just pause and
reflect and say, okay, yeah, I Ido have my it's hard to see our
own flaws, quirks, you know,biases, all of those, those
things that we're often blindto.
(36:58):
Um but yeah, some of that rethat reflection, that mirror
work is critical, but it's man,it starts with starts with
humility.
I love it.
SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
Nice.
SPEAKER_05 (37:07):
Christy, this has been um this has been awesome.
I wouldn't mind another roundtwo someday of having you come
back on and uh and uh andsharing more yeah wisdom and uh
man some of these nuggets thatyou've been you've been sharing
today.
So thank you so much sincerelyfor for coming on and sharing so
much.
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
Well, thanks for having me.
I really enjoyed it.
We do too.
SPEAKER_05 (37:29):
All right, friends, that does it for us.
We're so glad that you're hereand that you're listening.
We hope it's helpful.
We'll see you next time anotherepisode of the Stronger Marriage
Connection.
SPEAKER_01 (37:38):
And remember, it's the small and simple things that
create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take care now.
SPEAKER_05 (37:47):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment, and
share this episode with afriend.
You can also follow and interactwith us on Instagram at
(38:08):
StrongerMarriageLive andFacebook at Stronger Marriage.
So be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved, which
guests we should have on theshow next.
If you want even more resourcesto improve your marriage or
relationship connection, visitstrongermarriage.org where
you'll find free workshops,e-courses, in-depth webinars,
relationship surveys, and more.
(38:30):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks to ourproducer, Rex Polanas, and the
team at Utah State University,and you, our audience.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions, and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views of
(38:53):
the Utah Marriage Commission.
Have you ever felt stuck in the same old patterns
in your marriage, struggling tocommunicate what you feel deep
inside?
Harshness, frustration,resentment, or just feeling
emotionally distant?
On today's episode, Dr.
Liz and I welcome ChristyGazeford to the show, and she
shares all kinds of helpful andpractical tips from relational
life therapy, things you canstart doing today to improve
(00:25):
your relationship connection,starting with yourself.
Christy Gazeford has a master'sin social work from Columbia
University.
She has a private practice inSalt Lake City and she
specializes in relationships.
She runs relationship boot campsin Salt Lake City and New York
City.
She's passionate aboutrelationships, the anagram,
learning, and being outdoors.
(00:47):
We hope you enjoy the show.
SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection.
I'm Dr.
Liz Hale, the psychologist,along with Dr.
Dave Schram, the professor andmy esteemed colleague.
Together, we have dedicated ourlife's work to bringing you the
best we can find in validmarital research, along with a
few tips and tools to help youcreate the marriage of your
(01:15):
dreams.
Well, Dave, finally I have seenthe light, right?
I don't know what took me solong, but I have loved adding
the tool of relational lifetherapy, RLT for short, to my
practice, especially with thecouples who are on the brink of
divorce.
And this is not a new name toyou, right, Dave?
(01:35):
You've heard of Terry Real.
SPEAKER_05 (01:37):
Absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
Oh gosh.
Well, wish I started it earlier,but I'm here now.
Well, I'm thrilled that we havethis opportunity, you and me, to
sit down with Utah's own ChristyGazeford, a licensed marriage
therapist and expert in RLT.
What I love most about thismodel is its bold honesty with
couples, individuals.
It's deeply compassionate andthe powerful outcomes for
(02:01):
couples.
Well, Christy has beentransforming relationships
through this work, and we'reblessed to dive into her
personal and her professionaljourney.
So, Christy, welcome to StrongerMarriage Connection.
Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
What a treat this will be.
Can we please begin with alittle of your own personal
(02:22):
marriage journey and what drewyou to relational life therapy?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
Um, well, you hear that we often teach what we
needed to learn the most.
So my personal journey is I wasuh really struggling in my
marriage and I didn't know whatto do.
And I'd read tons of books andnothing seemed to help.
And I got this email that said,this man named Terry Real was
(02:48):
coming to the University ofMinnesota to talk about how to
have the new rules of marriage,how to have a better marriage.
And so I thought, okay, I shouldgo.
I'm looking for help.
So I went to hear him speak.
And I remember just feeling likehe was talking to me directly
and just furiously taking notesall day.
(03:09):
And there's two things that hesaid that really changed my
life.
And the first one was, you don'thave a right to misbehave, no
matter what anyone else is doingto you.
And that really rocked mebecause I had been misbehaving
really badly.
And I had been justifying it.
(03:30):
Like, what am I supposed to do?
Just not do anything when myhusband's acting like this, or
am I just supposed to take itand not defend myself?
And but the problem is I reallydidn't like who I was becoming,
and and I really didn't, Ireally didn't like myself when I
acted that way.
And so that day I decided tostop doing that.
(03:50):
And um the next thing he saidwas, if you don't dare to rock
the boat, nothing will everchange.
And he said, Many women that arepleasers that continue to stay
in unhealthy relationships endup getting physically ill from
taking on the stress, and thenthey lose their life or their
(04:12):
relationship anyway.
So um that's kind of myintroduction.
And so I did both of thosethings.
I stopped reacting poorly and Iand I did rock the boat, and I
did get divorced.
Um and but that was that was theright thing for me after trying
(04:33):
and trying and trying.
Um, but then I started trainingwith Terry and um figured if it
changed my life and then I couldit would help me in my in my
career to help other people aswell.
So I got certified in relationallight therapy and I got
remarried.
And we, my husband and I usethese skills every day.
(04:55):
And when we don't, we look asbad as everybody else.
But when we do, it really helps.
SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
Oh, I think that's a beautiful introduction to RLT.
I've I've just been so impressedwith it.
It's really made a difference inmy own practice already,
Christy, and I'm pretty new withit.
Uh, it's I find it reallypowerful.
I don't know.
Dave, you already knew about it.
You were way ahead of me.
SPEAKER_05 (05:18):
No, I'm I'm anxious to learn more about this uh
today, Christy.
You say that the the firstrelationship to work on is the
one you have with yourself.
And I really like that.
We say you know quite a bit hereon the podcast, you know, a
happy, healthy we starts with ahappy, healthy me.
Uh, what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Yeah, I think it's it's essential to have a good
relationship with yourselfbecause if you don't, it's I
like to think of it as beingsturdy, being sturdy enough to
handle difficult feedback, beingsturdy enough to be able to say,
this is hard, but I can see mypartner.
You know, if you're if you havean unhealthy self-esteem, you're
(06:00):
gonna be way too dependent onyour partner to make you feel
good, and that doesn't lead to agood relationship, or you're not
gonna be able to handlecloseness and you're gonna
withdraw and just not be able tohandle intimacy.
So it really, it really isessential that we can be kind
enough and and be sturdy enoughin our own self that we can
(06:24):
interact with others in ahealthy way.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
I really love that.
Be kind and sturdy, internallyand externally.
Yes.
I, you know, there's uh you talka lot about the five
dysfunctional patterns in RLT.
Could we do a quick rundown ofthem, please?
Though where do you start tohelp people unravel?
What areas?
Yeah, there the first is beingright.
SPEAKER_00 (06:50):
So just the whole, yes, the whole objectivity
battles, you know.
I'm you said that, no, youdidn't.
You said this, no, I didn't.
But you know, the things whereyou could just go around and
around.
And if there's one thing I'velearned doing years of couples
therapy is that there is noobjective reality.
We see things so differentlythat you could argue for the
(07:13):
rest of your life and not agreeon what happened because you saw
things or experienced themdifferently.
So that's the first the firstone.
The second one is controllingyour partner, and that can be
direct control or indirectcontrol through manipulation.
But people, it's it's anillusion that you if if you get
(07:34):
people to do what you wantedthem to, it always comes with
resentment.
So controlling your partner.
The third is unbridledself-expression, just saying
things that are not helpful.
You know, that could be anywherefrom saying opinions that are
hurtful, like I'm just not asattracted to you as I used to
(07:56):
be, or or just like screamingand yelling and name-calling and
swearing and all of thosethings, or just bringing up
things that happened five, 10,15 years ago and just completely
rehashing.
And it's anything that is notproductive, it's just kind of
hurting your partner.
(08:17):
Is that where harshness comesin?
That line.
Yeah, there's nothing harshnessdoes that loving firmness can't
do better.
Right.
It's there's no there's no roomfor harshness in a relationship,
it only harms.
And then the fourth isretaliation.
And you know, retaliation can behuge.
And those stories make the news,you know, like the man that gets
(08:42):
broken up with and burns downhis girlfriend's house.
Like I'm I'm saying thisfacetiously, but it does happen,
right?
But it can also be very subtle,like a withdrawal of attention
or a like, I'm not gonna be aswarm to you because I don't
think you're being very warm tome.
And it's like we match eachother's energy and until we
(09:02):
continue to both withdraw.
That's a form of retaliation.
And then the last one iswithdrawal, which is just
checking out of therelationship.
I'm just not even gonna reallybe here.
I might be sitting here, but I'mnot really here.
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
Yeah.
Oi, those are powerful.
Thank you.
Thank you for running downthose.
So we've got um being right,right?
Being controlling, unbridledself-expression, retaliation,
and withdrawal.
Powerful.
Thank you for explaining those.
SPEAKER_05 (09:37):
Yeah.
It I love that you break thosedown like that because sometimes
we hear broad words likecommunication or you know,
conflict or something.
But actually going down intothose and then giving examples,
it's like, oh yeah, I canrelate, or I've seen that, or
man, yeah, I need to look in themirror and like, oh, I can see
how hard to look in the mirror,Dave, sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (09:56):
Oh, sure is from here if you're sitting in my
seat.
SPEAKER_05 (10:00):
Yeah, that's right.
Christy, you say that it's it'sactually good to, let's say,
quote unquote, rock the boat alittle bit.
So you want couples to lean inand and deal with each other,
right?
Does so does this mean that toooften we disengage in a way
that's that's harmful to therelationship?
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
Yes.
It's like um people try a fewtimes to address something
difficult and they'll get a bigdefensive reaction.
And so they start to give up.
Like I don't I don't know how tobring this up because every time
I do, my partner gets upset.
So I guess I can't talk about itanymore.
And then then the people juststart to slowly withdraw and
(10:39):
avoid tough conversations, andthen it can turn into a
situation where the couple justfeels like roommates.
Like we're not fighting, butwe're we're not close, and we're
both keeping a safe distance sothat we don't start fights, but
it's nothing's being addressed,and it's like the marriage is
slowly dying, where but it looksokay on the surface.
SPEAKER_05 (11:04):
I even think Christine, man, you nailed it.
I feel like um just again, I'mnot a therapist, just an
observer.
But more people morerelationships kind of uh end by
that slow leak in the air ratherthan a blowout tire type of a
thing.
Is that me?
And it sounds like that this iswhat you're talking about.
It's I I'm not gonna risk itanymore.
You know, it's just notworthwhile.
I'm not gonna bring that up.
I'm not gonna share because itblows up or it's a yeah, it's uh
(11:28):
it's it is, it's risky uh safetyputting up that wall.
I'm not even gonna bring this upbecause it yeah, every time it
ends in a in an ar he winnerfight.
So I may as well not bring itup.
And that and in my mind it makessense.
Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm justgonna pull back.
I'm not gonna bring that upanymore.
But yeah, you say that that it'sthat's a pattern that, yeah,
you'll slowly just kind of driftapart.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
Yeah, I actually get a lot more worried when when I
see a couple and that it justfeels like there's no energy in
the relationship than whensomebody's fighting a lot,
because at least the fightersare still passionate enough that
they care.
And the ones where they've kindof just lost the energy, it's
almost like they've they'vegiven up.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Oh boy.
Well, I I also love this nextaspect of RLT relational life
therapy of who's right, who'swrong, and who cares, right?
It's but it's not always easy tolet go of accuracy, is it?
And yet you say it's soimportant to do so.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (12:29):
Um, is kind of what I started saying before, but it
it truly is people have suchdifferent lenses that they see
the world through.
I mean, if you think about ourchildhoods were different, our
family of origins weredifferent, our personalities are
different, our life experience,so many things are different.
And so when we start to argueabout who's right or wrong, it
(12:53):
it's it's never gonna get usanywhere.
So the the thing to break it iscuriosity.
Okay, I don't see it that way,but it's so interesting that my
partner does.
I wonder, I wonder how how mypartner does see this.
I'm gonna be very curious.
Like, help me understand how yousee the situation.
Help me understand how thatmakes you feel.
(13:16):
And if I can understand, then Ican I can reach through to my
partner, go, okay, now if I sawit that way, I would feel that
way too.
I can I can see that.
Do you have a moment to let meunder explain to you how I see
it?
And can we come to anunderstanding of each other's
differences rather than who'sright or wrong?
(13:38):
Because there is no right orwrong.
It's just different.
SPEAKER_05 (13:43):
I love that.
The understanding, thecompassion of trying to put
yourself in their shoes.
Yeah, it's not a right or wrong,but it's like, oh, I can see why
you do the things that you do orthink the way that you think,
because now I can I canunderstand it.
SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
Oh okay.
Like no wonder, no wonder youfeel that way.
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Yes, yes, it is.
And it's nice to remember thatpeople do what people do makes
sense to them.
So I I often tell my clients,assume good intent and then ask
from that place.
I assume you did this with goodintention.
So can you help me understandthe way you saw it?
SPEAKER_02 (14:23):
Yep.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
Because I don't see it that way, but I'll leave that
one up, right?
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_04 (14:31):
Um we'll be right back after this brief minutes.
SPEAKER_03 (14:45):
And we're back.
Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_05 (14:53):
And that taking turns with expressing feelings
is similar to coming up to thecustomer service window.
Okay, so this has me reallyintrigued.
Tell me more.
SPEAKER_00 (15:02):
Yeah, this is something Terry, Terry says.
He said, if going, it's likegoing to a customer service
window and saying, hey, thistoaster I brought, I bought
broke.
And the person at the countersaying, Oh yeah, well, my
microwave broke.
And then you're just sittingthere going, well, now what?
We both have problems and weboth have complaints, and no
(15:22):
one's gonna be heard.
So the the rule of therelationship therapy really is
the person that comes to youwith a problem or an issue,
they're in the speaker role.
And it's your job as theirpartner to be the listener.
You're there to help resolve theconcern that they brought to
you.
That's not the time for you tosay, oh, it's time for concerns.
(15:43):
Let me go get all of the onesI've stored up, which I used to
do, and it doesn't work, I cantell you that.
So um it has to be differentroles and it has to be at
different times.
So many, I mean, I see thisevery day.
Somebody comes with a with acomplaint, hey, it really hurt
my feelings when you did this.
And the very first sentence outof their partner's mouth is,
(16:06):
well, you did this, or well,what about last time when you
did it?
And it's like the person's neverheard, and then you can see what
happens, right?
It just goes on and on.
So if you can really rememberthat it's two different roles,
and it and you if you have acomplaint, you have to bring it
up.
You can't piggyback on yourpartner's complaint.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
I really I do.
I can I can imagine thatcustomer service hat, right?
I just I try to think aboutokay, I'm gonna go first or I'm
gonna be the listener.
I'm gonna try to fix this brokenmicrowave without talking about
my broken toaster.
I think I thought that was justbrilliant.
I've even had my clients wear ahat, like take turns wearing the
hat.
I that's what I that's what Ienvision is a great little hat.
(16:51):
Customer service.
How can I help you?
Oh here, here's a bold statementthat we really need some help
with.
I think it's just so cool.
But um, here it goes, Dave.
Learn to work with the partneryou're with instead of the one
you deserve.
(17:11):
Let's explain that, Christine.
Oh, you're the one to do thisexplaining to me.
SPEAKER_00 (17:16):
Well, there is a certain there, there's a certain
amount of grief that comes withintimacy.
And what I mean by that is thatat some level, we all long for
the divine.
We long for this partner whowill completely complete us, who
will um who will satisfy all ofour needs, who will say all of
(17:38):
the right things and comfort andheal us.
There's a part of us fromchildhood that longs to find
this person, right?
And what we get is a willfullylimited human being.
And the difference between whatwe long for and what we get is
called grief.
(17:59):
And learning, knowing thatthat's something that will come
in any relationship because noone's perfect, and being able to
grieve that is maturity.
And one thing that Terryteaches, I think is one of his
most powerful teachings, is therelationship reckoning.
And what that is, is when youhave asked and asked for
(18:22):
something, and you're it's veryclear that even though I've
asked for this over and over,it's clear at this point that
I'm not gonna get it.
You need to ask yourself, am Igetting enough from this person
to make it worth my while togrieve what I'm not gonna get?
And if the answer is yes, thenyou you do the work of grieving
(18:45):
that and you let it go.
And then you focus on all thereasons you chose to stay, and
you realize that you're not avictim of the relationship you
chose to stay for these reasons.
If if you don't do that, you cancarry that res you can stay
anyway, but carry thatresentment with you throughout
your relationship.
(19:06):
So I think that's reallypowerful.
SPEAKER_01 (19:09):
Yes.
And so would you uh most couplesyou work with are have to do a
relationship relationshipreckoning?
SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
Um, I I believe we all have to do it at some level.
You know, am I gonna continue tobe upset and resentful that my
partner's just not giving methis thing?
I mean, I don't know everyonewho anyone who got everything
that they dreamed of.
And at some point, you do haveto let that go and say, yeah,
(19:37):
but I got this and this andthis, and it's worth it for me.
And if it's not, that's when youhave to make another really
difficult choice.
You know, I know it isn't worthit for me.
So what do I do now?
Because I'm not gonna be avictim of my relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (19:55):
So learning isn't that cool, Dave?
SPEAKER_05 (19:57):
That's a powerful excerpt.
I never really thought about itsitting down and actually going
through that, kind of workingthrough that, because I I think
that's probably pretty normalfor for all of us to think like,
oh, I wish they were a littleless like this, or more like
this person, or see this orthat, and kind of harbor that
for yeah, years instead of beinglike, okay, they're not like
(20:19):
that.
But this is these are thequalities.
I'm gonna focus on the 80% orwhatever it is that I truly love
and admire and and work throughor let go of that 20% and quit
trying to make them into that,uh but really accept and love
them for who you did marry, notwho you thought you married.
SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
Yes, yes, and think how much stronger your
relationship would be if youcould do that.
It's pretty powerful.
SPEAKER_05 (20:46):
Yeah, really cool.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Ah, I like that so much.
Um wow.
You know, so many of us, Ithink, still think that if we're
in conflict, there must besomething wrong, or I married
the wrong person.
But I I love this of RLT thatwe're constant in constant flux
of harmony, disharmony, andrepair.
That's really the good news,isn't it, Christine?
SPEAKER_00 (21:08):
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Um, we're if you're in indisrepair at times, you're
normal.
But that is the state ofrelationships, and and it starts
when we're born.
Our first relationship with ourmother is a constant state of
harmony, disharmony, and repair,right?
The baby the baby cries and themother comes.
Um, so when we can accept thatthat's just part of being in a
(21:32):
relationship, it's reallypowerful because we can stop
catastrophizing when things arein disrepair and making it worse
because it's easy to go, oh,here we go again.
I knew it.
I knew they were like this ordoing it again, and just kind of
catastrophize until we go offthe rails.
Um, I think the biggest problemI see is that none of us really
(21:55):
learned how to have a healthyrepair.
So there's a lot of couples thathave harmony, disharmony, shove
it under the rug after a littlewhile.
Harmony, disharmony, shove, youknow, and the the bigger issues
are are not actually repaired.
But yeah, it's normal in everyrelationship.
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
The repair is the most crucial part of that
pattern.
SPEAKER_05 (22:19):
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
It feels like that's almostbecome a theme, right, Liz.
We've talked with anotheranother guest recently about the
importance of a repair and howthat goes because we all need to
do it and we need to do itbetter because we can think
we're doing it better, but it'salmost almost selfishly, right?
Or making more of a mess orcreating more of a mess.
(22:40):
And then we complain about themess because we provoke this
person to say or do thesethings.
SPEAKER_01 (22:45):
Um Christy, do you mind if we jump into what is
some of the repair with RLT,Christy?
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
Um well, one of the most powerful tools that we
teach is the feedback wheel, anduh and what that looks like is
this.
Um when you I'll do an easy one.
When you uh showed up late, whenyou came home at 6 30 and you
told me you'd be home at 5 45,the story I told myself, or what
(23:14):
I made up about it, is that youare disrespectful of my time and
that you think your time is moreimportant than mine, and I made
up that you're selfish.
And that makes me feel sad andfrustrated and kind of angry to
(23:35):
be honest.
Um in the future, I would askthat if you're gonna be late,
that you text me and let meknow, so that I'm not sitting
around in limbo for 45 minutes.
Is that something you feel likeyou could do?
And the reason this it'spowerful is because you you're
you're telling your partner yourstory.
(23:55):
You're not saying it's true.
You're owning that this is themeaning I gave it, this is how I
felt, and you're ending with achance for your partner to get
out of it.
It's a future request.
It's not getting stuck in thepast in something they can't
change.
You're always late, you alwaysdo this to me, you you're never
on time.
You didn't, you know, then thepartner's like, oh, I there's
(24:16):
nothing I can do.
Um, but that's one way that canbe used in many different
scenarios.
Love that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
Feedback wheel.
And then isn't there astatement?
I love that statement of whatlike maybe with the customer
service hat, like what what canI do to make this better for
you?
Right?
If I am the listener, is that doI understand that right?
Yes, I can do it.
Yes, yes.
What can I do right now thatwould help you feel better?
What can I do right now thatwould help you feel better?
I love that too.
(24:45):
What can I do right now thatwould help you feel better?
Oh, cool.
SPEAKER_05 (24:50):
Yeah, just the way that we slow down and instead of
that that meanness or the thatharshness, you brought that
harshness um a few minutes ago.
I I really feel like, yeah, someof that I once heard, you know,
the difference between a happynow and happy marriage is
leaving a few things left unsaideach day.
You know, just like don't don'tsay those those mean things that
that stir that that pot again.
(25:12):
Um I I love this common RLTphrase, Chris, you said
harshness does nothing thatloving firmness doesn't do
better.
Ah, I love it.
What what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
I think you can be very firm, but uh in a very
loving way.
Like this I'm telling you rightnow, I'm really upset and this
doesn't work for me.
And I'm I'm I'm asking that youchange because if you don't
change, I'm gonna continue to behurt by this and I mean it.
And I don't think we are we'retaught how to say firm things in
(25:46):
a loving way, and so usually bythe time we're we're at the
breaking point, we we say themin a very angry way.
Or um, like I didn't realizeuntil I found RLT that you can
say things without emoting them.
You can tell someone you'reangry without emoting anger,
which really turns people off,right?
(26:08):
And I really didn't even knowthat.
I thought if you were angry bythat point you were gonna show
that you were angry, you know?
But you can say really firmthings in a very loving way.
I love you and I'm reallyunhappy.
And I need I need to I need tosee some change in this area.
SPEAKER_05 (26:31):
Yeah, firmness with in a loving way, with kindness.
Uh yeah, that's powerful.
Man.
This is great.
Let's go for a uh Liz, you havethree more hours so we can just
keep talking about it.
I know, I know it.
SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
I do.
I love this so much.
I really do.
This is it makes some sense,right?
And I don't know if anything isreally too new, but yeah, I
don't know how he's just beenable to kind of I don't know,
narrow it down, really, reallygive some strong sentiments, and
he's not afraid to tellindividuals the truth either.
Of like, do you want the goodnews or the bad news?
Yeah, right.
(27:04):
The good news is I really love,I think you're a good man.
Bad news is you're wrong.
You're wrong.
Yeah, you're you're hurting alot of people.
You're hurting a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02 (27:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
How does that does that go very well, Christy, when
you're doing it with an actualcouple?
You've had to, I'm I'm sure,call people out.
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
It actually does work really well as long as they
can tell that you really do lovethem and you really are rooting
for them.
And you really are separatingthem from their bad behavior.
Like, I know this isn't who youreally are at your core, but
there is a part of you, thisadaptive child, that is causing
a lot of pain.
(27:46):
And so you're you're separatingthem from this part of them
because it isn't all of them,there is a really good part of
them.
But when their adaptive childtakes over, it's not a great
part of them.
And it does cause harm in therelationship.
But if you can start helpingthem see the difference and
creating this allergy to the badbehavior and integrating it,
(28:08):
yeah.
Um, they can start to changebecause they don't want to be
like that anymore.
SPEAKER_04 (28:16):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
SPEAKER_03 (28:29):
And we're back.
Let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
Adaptive child is going to be a new term to our
audience.
Do you do you mind justexpressing what that is a little
bit?
How adaptive children becomemaladaptive adults.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Yes, it is a big part of RLT.
And it's the adaptive child isthe part of us that was hurt in
childhood in many differentways, and we all have one.
And it's the part of us that hadto adapt in childhood to
survive.
So maybe we had to become verypleasing and go along to get
along so we don't rock the boat,or maybe we had to really stand
(29:03):
up for ourselves and be kind ofaggressive because nobody
respected our boundaries.
Or there's many ways, but thatpart of us that that adapted in
childhood is maladaptive in ouradult relationships.
It never is helpful to be thechild that's so pleasing that
your partner doesn't even knowwhat you want or who you are,
(29:25):
and you start getting walkedover and then resentful.
It doesn't help to be superharsh and controlling or
dominating in an adultrelationship.
So it's learning to see your owndysfunction and where it's
coming out in the relationshipand taming that part of you.
Oh, I see you.
I know you want to come out andtake control right now, but I
(29:48):
it's okay, I got it.
This wise part of me, I'm gonnatake control.
You can you can take a seat.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
Yeah, to the um adaptive child.
So Okay, I got that.
She can just yeah, stand behindme or that's pretty cool.
I used to kind of, I don't know,I I would used to poo-poo if you
don't mind.
I can't think of another wordfor that um inner child work,
you know, that was so popularback in the day with Bradshaw.
I just didn't really understandit or get it.
But the the more I work withcouples, especially those that
(30:18):
are really stuck, where they areat that crossroads, we we stay
or we go.
Um I I get it.
I really I need I needed moretools to help them get unstuck.
That's where LLT has really beena gift.
Yeah.
I agree.
It's very powerful.
SPEAKER_05 (30:37):
Christy, it's a tradition here on our show,
Stronger Marriage Connection,um, that we love to ask a couple
of questions.
The following question (30:45):
what do you believe is the key to a
stronger marriage connection?
SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
So I'm gonna tell a very quick story.
There was a man who'd beenmarried like 60 years, and
somebody asked him, What's thekey to a happy marriage?
And he said, It's really easy.
I just get up every day and Ilook in the mirror and I say to
myself, You're no prize either.
(31:11):
And I I do think that that isthe key on some level, because I
think it takes humility andcuriosity and the ability to
really know yourself and thegood and the bad.
And it's hard to be able to takenegative feedback, but as soon
as you can learn to say, you'reright, I can be like that, and I
(31:35):
did do that, and I'm reallysorry.
You you can stop any fight.
Like as long as soon as yourpartner admits what they did,
it's like now I can move on.
Like I can let this go nowbecause you get it.
Like so many of the fights arejust wasted energy defending our
(31:55):
bad behavior.
But if if you can if you can seeyour bad behavior and it and own
it and work on it and mean it, II think you can you can repair
anything.
SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
Yeah.
When a partner can just say, Ohgosh, you're right.
I you're right, I do that.
It's kind of like the darkclouds part and the sun comes
through, and it's like, oh thankGod.
I don't have to keep hitting himover the head with it.
He gets it or hitting her overthe head with it.
Yeah, that's the kind of gift wecan give our partners in return.
You have some great resourcesfor our podcast, dear Christy.
(32:30):
And where can our listeners,viewers go to discover more
about you and the relationshipboot camp that's coming up the
end of September?
We'll add that to our show notesfor easy access.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
Yeah, uh, my website is relationallifecounseling.com.
So you can find me there in myyeah, I'm doing a boot camp the
end of September for couplesusing all of these relational
life therapy tools.
It was it was designed by TerryReal and it's it's really
powerful.
Two days.
SPEAKER_01 (33:01):
Two-day boot camp, gosh.
And is there something powerfulbeing with other couples?
Because part of me is cry aboutthat.
SPEAKER_00 (33:07):
I think it's so powerful because it takes away
the shame.
You're just sitting in this roomwith strangers, and after it
only takes a few minutes torealize, oh, we all do these
things.
We all experience these things.
It's not just us because I thinkway too often we're so alone in
our own relationship becauseyou've you can't go talk about
(33:28):
it to people.
You can't, you feel disloyal,like saying bad things about
your own partner.
And so you're kind of likesuffering in silence and feeling
like the only one.
But in in a boot camp, you juststart realizing it's okay that
I'm flawed, because everyoneelse in the room is too, and
everyone else in the world is,and we didn't learn better, we
(33:48):
didn't, we don't know better,but but now that we can learn,
we can change and we can dobetter, and also you can see
like beauty and and the beautyin other flawed human beings,
and it helps you see the beautyin yourself and the flaws, but
it's like it's all okay.
There's no shame in this.
It's like let's just figure itout so we can be happier.
SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_05 (34:15):
Yeah, yeah, this has been super helpful.
I've learned a lot, um, Christy.
Hey, before we let you go, welike to end with our what we
call a takeaway of the day.
Is there a take-home message youwant our listeners to remember
from our discussion?
SPEAKER_00 (34:26):
Yeah, I would say um to remember, the only person we
can really change is ourselves.
So it's so tempting to learnabout new tools and think, I
wish my partner would do this.
You know, I I hope he heard thator something.
But if we can start withourselves, and it's it's such a
skill to be able to receivedifficult feedback.
(34:48):
But if you could ask yourpartner, what is it like to be
with me?
What are the good things andwhat is the most challenging
thing about being my partner?
SPEAKER_01 (34:59):
That's a great question, isn't it?
It takes a lot of courage to askthat and to hear the answer and
to speak the answers.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:05):
So say that again.
Tell say that again.
What is it like to be mypartner?
What are the good things andwhat are the hardest parts about
being with me?
And it does take a lot ofcourage, but if you can ask that
and sit with the response andreally kind of metabolize it and
go, okay.
Because we cannot change what wecan't see.
(35:28):
And part of our growth path hasto be seeing all of ourselves,
the good and the bad.
If we can't see it, we're justgonna keep repeating it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:40):
Wow.
SPEAKER_05 (35:41):
Yeah, so much uh to take away.
Liz, what are you taking awayfrom our discussion with
Christie?
SPEAKER_01 (35:46):
Wow.
Well, you know, I this is partof RLT, but it was a little bit
more of a story, but just themirror work that you're
suggesting, right?
The the the man, the woman inthe mirror, and uh making peace
there, and not being harsh withthat person either any more than
we don't want to be harsh withour partner.
And so that that quote of you'reno prize either.
(36:07):
We are just all mere mortals.
Mm-hmm.
And what about you, Dave?
What's the golden nugget that'sgonna stay with you long after
our visit with Christy Gazeberg?
SPEAKER_05 (36:17):
Yeah, you know, it's maybe this whole idea of this
humility versus harshness, youknow, this humility to to look
inside, to let some of thosethings go that we wish our
partner was more of or less of.
And then, yeah, and then say,hey, yeah, I'm not I'm not a
jay.
What's the hardest part ofliving with me?
Uh I I can't imagine, buthonestly, just asking that
(36:38):
question, not not in a self-beatmyself up way, right?
But in a in an honest um look inthe mirror and just pause and
reflect and say, okay, yeah, I Ido have my it's hard to see our
own flaws, quirks, you know,biases, all of those, those
things that we're often blindto.
(36:58):
Um but yeah, some of that rethat reflection, that mirror
work is critical, but it's man,it starts with starts with
humility.
I love it.
SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
Nice.
SPEAKER_05 (37:07):
Christy, this has been um this has been awesome.
I wouldn't mind another roundtwo someday of having you come
back on and uh and uh andsharing more yeah wisdom and uh
man some of these nuggets thatyou've been you've been sharing
today.
So thank you so much sincerelyfor for coming on and sharing so
much.
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
Well, thanks for having me.
I really enjoyed it.
We do too.
SPEAKER_05 (37:29):
All right, friends, that does it for us.
We're so glad that you're hereand that you're listening.
We hope it's helpful.
We'll see you next time anotherepisode of the Stronger Marriage
Connection.
SPEAKER_01 (37:38):
And remember, it's the small and simple things that
create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take care now.
SPEAKER_05 (37:47):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment, and
share this episode with afriend.
You can also follow and interactwith us on Instagram at
(38:08):
StrongerMarriageLive andFacebook at Stronger Marriage.
So be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved, which
guests we should have on theshow next.
If you want even more resourcesto improve your marriage or
relationship connection, visitstrongermarriage.org where
you'll find free workshops,e-courses, in-depth webinars,
relationship surveys, and more.
(38:30):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks to ourproducer, Rex Polanas, and the
team at Utah State University,and you, our audience.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions, and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views of
(38:53):
the Utah Marriage Commission.
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