April 14, 2025 • 31 mins
Relationship churning—the pattern of breaking up and getting back together with the same partner—affects nearly half of young adults and creates emotional whiplash for couples, children, and their support networks. Dr. Sarah Halpern-Meekin shares her groundbreaking research on this common relationship phenomenon, explaining why couples fall into these patterns and what it means for their wellbeing.
• Relationship churning comes in two main forms: breaking up and getting back together, and having sex with an ex
• Nearly half of young adults report churning in their current or most recent relationship
• Churning relationships show higher psychological distress, lower satisfaction, and worse communication, but surprisingly higher intimate self-disclosure
• Fathers in churning relationships stay more involved with their children than those who permanently break up
• Economic distress, incarceration history, and one-sided breakups increase likelihood of churning
• The key to healthy relationships includes investing time in connection, developing conflict management skills, and setting clear expectations
• Before reconciling after a breakup, ask if what caused the original breakup has actually changed
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https://www.irp.wisc.edu/staff/halpern-meekin-sarah/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Chances are you or a loved one has experienced a
relationship churning in yourlifetime.
You're in a relationship, thenbreak it off, then back in the
same relationship, then take abreak again.
Well, on today's episode, drLiz and I dive into this
relationship pattern with DrSarah Halpern-Meekin and we talk
about how common it is,characteristics of those who
(00:25):
relationship churn and why somepeople have struggles in it.
Dr Sarah Halpern Meekin is aprofessor of public affairs and
human development and familystudies at the University of
Wisconsin, madison, whoresearches romantic
relationships, includingon-again, off-again patterns,
social poverty and low-incomefamilies through mixed methods.
(00:45):
Her work examines howrelationship instability affects
parents and children, laborforce participation among
working-age men and the impactof unconditional cash assistance
on poor families.
She received her PhD insociology and social policy from
Harvard University.
We hope you enjoy the show.
(01:11):
Hey friends, welcome to StrongerMarriage Connection.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity, alongside Dr Liz
Hale, our licensed clinicalpsychologist and therapist.
We are aiming to bring you thevery best we have in valid
research and resources, alongwith some tips and tools to help
you create the marriage of yourdreams.
Well, have you ever known acouple who seem to break up and
(01:34):
get back together like clockwork.
Maybe you've experienced ityourself, that cycle of
splitting up and getting backtogether, only to split up again
in days or weeks or maybe evenmonths later.
This pattern is calledrelationship churning and it
affects millions of couples andcan create emotional whiplash,
(01:55):
not just for the partnersinvolved, but for their children
, for their friends and familymembers too.
Well, today we're joined by DrSarah Halpern-Meekin, a
sociologist from the Universityof Wisconsin-Madison who studied
this fascinating phenomenon tounderstand why couples fall into
this pattern, what it means fortheir well-being and how to
build more stable relationships.
(02:15):
Welcome, dr Halpern-Meekin, tothe show.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Okay, now I have to admit right up front, liz and
Sarah, I hadn't really heard ofthis concept.
I mean, I know people who'vebeen in and out of relationships
, but I haven't actually heardof relationship churning and it
had this little image in my head, almost like a washing machine
or something that's churning Tostart things off.
Can you tell us a little bitabout relationship churning?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Sure.
So some people use the term onagain, off again, relationships.
Other people talk aboutrelationship cyclicality.
I use the term relationshipchurning to refer to two forms
Primarily.
The first is having sex with anex.
The more commonly studied formis breaking up and getting back
together with the same person,and so for my generation, that
(03:06):
classic example is Ross andRachel on Friends being on a
break.
And what does that mean?
You know, in more recentdecades, we have Khloe
Kardashian and Tristan Thompsonbreaking up and getting back
together.
We have Taylor Swift singing,singing.
We're never, ever getting backtogether.
So you know, this idea ofchurning really pervades our,
(03:30):
our popular culture.
This will, they won't, they are, they aren't they, um, I think,
really captures our attentionyeah, yeah, it really does.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I, I know I've seen couples of churning um on again,
off again, and then they'relike, oh man, they're just,
they've been away, but nowthey're just driven and they
right, stay night over orwhatever at this other person's
place and I think, ah man, thisis.
I'm not sure how healthy someof this is, so I can't wait to
dive into this.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Sex with the ex.
That's pretty clever.
As far as pointing that term,even after divorce, I understand
.
Is that right, sarah, thatcouples getting back together
maybe for the sake of sex orcloseness or warmth?
Is that true as well?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I have not seen data on sex with an ex among formerly
married couples, but we lookedat it among cohabitors and young
adult relationships.
We looked at it amongcohabitors and we saw in young
adult relationships and we sawquite high rates among young
adults.
Over half who broke upcontinued some kind of sexual
relationship.
Nearly nine in 10 exes who hadsex attempted to reconcile so
(04:39):
that on again, off again,relationship and sex with an ex
can really kind of go hand inhand.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
So interesting.
You know this really has kindof a negative connotation to me
professionally, even personally,so I really appreciate you are
here to set the record straightthat it is not necessarily
hopeless.
It's really based just on apoor pattern, right that people
get stuck in.
That's the best way to describeit.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I think it looks different for different couples
and we just want to understand.
You know, as researchers, we'reinterested in understanding
some of the correlates of um, ofchurning relationships are
there?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
okay, I get it.
I you're just a perfectresearcher, like not necessarily
across the board everything,but it's based on the individual
couple.
How common is relationshipchurning, please, and why is it
so common?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So the data is kind of limited so we don't have good
national estimates of this.
But using a data set of youngadults in the Midwest, we see
that nearly half report churningin their present or most recent
relationship, so that doesn'tmean ever in their lives.
That means in their currentrelationship or in the one they
(05:51):
just left.
About half had broken up andgotten back together at least
once and the average number ofchurning episodes was two and a
half, which means that forpeople who do churn, doing it
more than once is the modalexperience among these young
adults.
We've also used data from astudy called the Future of
(06:13):
Families and Child Wellbeing.
That's a study that's ofparents and it's nationally
representative of people livingin the largest 20 metropolitan
areas in the United States.
Some of these parents weremarried and some of them were
not married when they welcomed achild and the survey has
followed these families overtime.
(06:35):
So me and Kristen Turney, myco-author, looked at what
happened in couples'relationships through the
child's fifth birthday and wesaw that by the child's fifth
birthday, 42% of couples werestill together.
14% were what we termed stablybroken up and single, so they
(06:58):
split from their originalpartner and didn't repartner.
Another 27% had stably brokenup and repartnered, and by
stably broken up here we meanthey broke up just that one time
and didn't churn, and 16% hadchurned at least once, and so
(07:18):
that means that churning amongthese parents was actually more
common than being stably brokenup and single.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Wow, well, ok, there's got to be psychological,
emotional impacts of repeatedlybreaking up and getting back
together.
I like that emotional whiplashyou were talking about, dave.
It's got to take a toll on thewell-being and even the ability
to trust.
No, does it set this precedence.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So when I look at the research I've done and work by
others in the field, you know wereally can't say anything
causal because we don't have thekind of data that allows us to
draw causal conclusions likedoes churning cause people to
feel a certain way?
Or is churning caused by certaindynamics or, you know,
(08:06):
personality, temperaments,things like that, or do they
just co-occur because of someother underlying factor?
So we don't know that, but wedo know for individuals, having
one episode of churning ispredictive of having future
episodes of churning, and thatincludes after beginning to
cohabit or marrying.
(08:26):
So this is not just somethingthat happens among people who
are in more casual relationships.
We know that churning isassociated with higher levels of
psychological distress, lowerrelationship satisfaction, lower
dedication and commitment andworse communication.
But and we were surprised tofind this it was associated with
(08:50):
higher intimate self-disclosureand that's a term that I'm sure
, dr Liz, you're better atdescribing this as a therapist,
but my understanding is you knowthat's about partners sharing
their intimate thoughts andfeelings with each other,
feeling like this other personreally understands them and they
can share about themselves.
(09:11):
More concerning, we see thatchurners are more likely to
report conflict and intimateabuse and desistance.
So stopping abuse patterns ismore likely among couples that
stably separate than those whochurn.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Wow.
And then we looked at theeffects of children on those
that have children and churningcouples.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, we have looked at those dynamics and we see,
you know perhaps a hopeful notethat churning fathers are more
involved with their childrenthan stably broken up fathers.
So we see, you know, thatconnection between the parents
translating over into a moreongoing connection between
fathers and children.
(09:54):
We do see that parents who arechurning report higher levels of
parenting stress than parentswho are stably broken up or who
are stably together.
And so some of those dynamicsthat challenge the relationship
as romantic partners may alsochallenge their parenting or
their co-parenting relationship.
(10:16):
We do see some differences inchildren's outcomes between
those who are growing up inchurning families and those in
other families.
But those are largely explainedby differences in demographic
and economic characteristicsbetween families.
So you know, any differences wesee in children's internalizing
(10:39):
or externalizing behavior.
So, like behavior patterns ormental health challenges,
differences in teenagersromantic relationship behaviors,
teenagers romantic relationshipbehaviors, those tend to be
accounted for by those otherfactors as opposed to seeming to
be caused by their parents'romantic relationship dynamics.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, that's interesting.
And, sarah, I mean obviously wedon't have records that
probably go back centuries orwhatever to see, but I'm
assuming that this has alwaysbeen around.
Any kind of like spikes in anyof this, or is it more common in
young adult relationships, andwhat does that mean?
You know different demographictrends.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, so we could speculate.
You know that some of thehigher rates of turning that we
see among younger adultscompared to parents, for example
, could be in part due to lifestage, like maybe people are
just having less committedrelationships in the first place
, for example.
Or it could also be due to theneed that you need to develop
skills at navigatingrelationships.
(11:43):
Like that can include knowingwhat kind of conflict is normal.
It can include knowing how tomanage conflict in a healthy way
, and you know we also sometimesare having really big emotions
in our younger years, andsometimes those even out as we
get older.
So all of those things couldmake these churning episodes
(12:11):
particularly likely during theearly years.
But, like you were saying, youknow we would need much more
extensive data in order to beable to speak to that over time.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
When parents have children, do they try a little
harder?
Is there less churning, morechurning?
I'm curious about the parentswho have children.
We've talked about the effectson children.
That's pretty tough,understandably right, but what
about those parents who havechildren?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Well, so I can't exactly speak to that, because
often surveys follow peoplestarting when they have the kid,
and so we don't get to observewhat happened before they had
the child.
But when we use the data thatwe have on young adults and then
when you use the data that wehave on parents who are, you
know, on average a few yearsolder, we see much higher rates
(13:04):
of churning among those youngadults than we do among parents.
Whether that's due to becomingparents or whether that's due to
the fact that they are older orthat they are in a relationship
with a person who they feel alittle bit more committed to and
that's why they've gone aheadand had a child together.
(13:24):
We can't really say for sure,but it certainly suggests that
we don't see a similarly highlevel of churning across the
board.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in.
And we're back, let's diveright in.
I can't help but think, sarah,that this also affects the kind
(13:56):
of the spillover effect intofriends and family that you know
that we start kind of gettingattached.
Or you go to a family party andyou know people start to get to
know this person and then it'soff and then people are like, oh
my goodness, or you know what ajerk or whatever it is, and
then the next party they're back, you know, then they're gone.
How does this affect friendsand family, loved ones of this,
(14:19):
this journey?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
see, you know what I can learn, but I'm not aware of
anything that tells us aboutthat spillover effect outside of
the nuclear family.
You know, we've certainly allheard that advice don't bad
mouth your friend's ex, sincethey can come back to hurt your
friendship when they get backtogether.
So you know, I think that thatadvice exists for a reason
because it's come back to bitetoo many people when they've
been like it's good you're ridof him and then he shows back up
(14:52):
.
But I also think you know whatyou're speaking to can make us
think about some of the ritualswe have around supporting
relationships.
You know, as a community it'snot uncommon at wedding
ceremonies, for example, for theofficiant to ask those gathered
(15:15):
to make a show of commitment tothe couple, right to supporting
the couple.
And we can imagine that turningcould make it more difficult
for a community to commit tosupporting a relationship or
that they could have seen acouple travel through those
challenges and emerge on theother side stronger for them and
(15:35):
could feel very supportive ofthem for that reason.
But there's a reason that weask family and friends to commit
to supporting couples in ourrituals and it's because those
are meaningful things to doright that a relationship
doesn't just survive or fail onits own.
It does so in the setting of acommunity and so that the way
(16:00):
that a relationship is receivedand supported or not by those
around us matters.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, I can see the flip side of this, sarah, as
well, in instances of abuse orviolence or something.
And then they keep going backand the friends and family are
thinking why are you turning?
You know what's what's going on.
So I can see both sides of ofthis.
I don't know if there's anyagain research on that, but I'm
sure his friends and familywould be so, uh, devastated,
(16:26):
heartbroken with the churningthat's going on, an unhealthy
situation.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yes, and often it does take some time before
people are able to leave abusiveor unsafe situations, and so
that's obviously difficult, bothfor the person in the situation
as well as for the family andfriends who are trying to
support them.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Do you have any advice in those situations?
Sarah, I know you're aresearcher, but do you have any
suggestions for those that'swatching a loved one who's
churning, or even maybe there issome abuse?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
So I wouldn't speak to what to do to help somebody
who's in an abusive relationship, because that takes a level of
expertise that is outside myarea.
When it comes to somebodyseeing churning going on, I
think we can look to theresearch to understand why we
(17:20):
see people breaking up andgetting back together, and we
see a set of relationshipfactors that are associated with
that churning.
So when breakups are one-sidedas opposed to mutual, we're more
likely to see churning becausethere was one person who didn't
want to break up.
When there are higher rates ofintimate self-disclosure, like I
(17:42):
mentioned before, and so thatmeans there's some kind of
connection between the couplethat they might be reluctant to
leave behind.
When partners expressuncertainty about why they broke
up in the first place, we seehigher rates of churning.
When there's lingeringattachments or feelings after a
breakup, we see higher rates ofchurning.
(18:03):
When people assess the breakupas having improved the
relationship in some way maybeit allowed them to resolve an
issue or gave them the space todo so and when people are living
together, we see higher ratesof churning.
And when people are livingtogether, we see higher rates of
churning.
So those are those sort ofindividual level or couple level
(18:23):
factors that we can look at.
We also see some more structuralor situational factors that are
associated with churning.
So the couple experiencingeconomic distress, having
history of incarceration, orexperiencing a partner's
(18:44):
incarceration, a parent'srelationship history, so parents
having more breakups, forexample.
And when structural orsituational factors are what are
undermining the relationship asopposed to qualities within the
relationship, we could imaginethat couples who weather those
stressors might be drawn backtogether because it wasn't
(19:05):
really a problem in therelationship per se that caused
the breakup in the first place,so they might be more likely to
turn.
It's obviously much less thansomeone's control to affect
(19:35):
their structural position, right, you can't affect your parents'
relationship history, forexample.
Those are think about whetherthere's a good reason to believe
that the relationship is goingto proceed in a healthy way
before getting back together.
Like, has whatever caused thebreakup in the first place
actually changed?
Changed?
(20:01):
And I think about the advice ofScott Stanley and Howard
Markman, who are psychologistswho have encouraged people to
decide not slide in theirrelationships.
Right, and so we don't want tojust get back together because
it hurts so much to be broken up.
We want to kind of push thebrakes and think about.
Are things really different now?
Is there a good reason tobelieve that this is going to be
a healthy dynamic for us,moving forward, or that the
(20:25):
challenges we addressed in thepast, um, we have figured out a
way to deal with together movingforward?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
and that could be challenging, right, sir?
Because it's you're talkingabout this rational thought okay
, really thinking that ratherthan the emotional like oh, but
we've shared so much and we havethis and they really get me,
type of a thing.
So being able to step out ofthat emotional reasoning to that
logical, rational, you know,prefrontal cortex type of
(20:54):
reasoning, is probably not easybecause a lot of the I don't
know if some of these decisionsare made from the back part,
right, the limbic system, thisemotional type of brain.
Any thoughts there?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I mean certainly when we see that having sex with an
ex increases your likelihood oftrying to get back together.
I think that speaks to thatsort of emotional or connective
drive being in the driver's seatas opposed to the, you know,
more rational brain.
(21:26):
I don't know that we alwayswant, we don't want to always
just make decisions, you know,up here and not back here, but
we want to allow space for thoseconsiderations too.
And so some of that meanstrying to sit with the
discomfort of the breakup andhaving enough distance from it
(21:47):
that we're not doing whatimmediately addresses that
emotional pain.
Right, because the thing thatmost immediately will make that
pain feel like it goes away isto get back together.
And that might be the rightdecision and it might not be.
But we might not be in aposition to say that if we're
sort of reacting as opposed toassessing and then acting.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Two people really kind of doing their own work, I
suppose.
Right, maybe it belongs to bothpartners.
Absolutely, it's a churningpattern, absolutely.
So we'd recommend individualtherapy, hopefully, or just a
real honest look in the mirror.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, I think it depends on what kind of issues
partners are managing and whatkind of resources they have.
You know, unfortunately forcouples with more limited
resources, for example, Medicaiddoes not pay for marriage
therapy and those kinds ofthings, right?
So not everyone has access tothose sorts of resources.
(22:50):
But trying to do some of theself-assessment, some of the
self-reflection, as best we canwith the resources we have, yeah
, that's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Is there a point, sarah, do you think of no return
, this point of no return, whererelationship churning,
reconciliation, just becomesmore harmful than helpful or
healthy?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
I would guess there is.
You know, when we were doingthis relationship churning
research using the data fromyoung adults, we top coded the
number of churning episodes at10.
So that means that anybody whowas reporting that they had
churned more than 10 times weonly counted as having churned
(23:32):
10 times.
Because there were someoutliers who reported very high
levels of churning episodes,even though they were, you know,
maybe in their late teens orearly 20s, and I can't, you know
.
I don't know what dynamics theywere dealing with, but I'd
imagine those were prettycomplex and probably not super,
(23:53):
super healthy.
But we unfortunately don't havethe data to follow
relationships over time to makethat kind of determination that
you're speaking to.
So I think that really speaksto why having robust data
infrastructure is so important,because knowing the answer to
that question could really helppsychologists and family
(24:15):
therapists and others to supportpeople in discerning a healthy
path forward with theirrelationships.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, wouldn't that just be wonderful to have that
magic bullet answer.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Which then speaks.
I don't know if you have theanswer then to this one, sarah,
but as a, as an extension,specialist right, and here at
with Utah Marriage Commission,we produce all kinds of
resources.
If it was you and you'reteaching a relationship
education class, you come uponchurning.
(24:46):
Do you just provide informationor any kind of guidance, or be
careful, or do you just whatwould you say?
I guess what would you offer ifyou're talking about premarital
education or marriage educationcourse, what do you suggest?
Or to help?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, I would come back to some of the skills that
are fundamental to therelationship education curricula
that I've seen.
So those things around you knowhow to do communication in a
way that's effective, how tohave conflict in a healthy way,
how to set up expectationsappropriately.
(25:24):
So if churning is somethingthat is born of conflict that is
not being managed well, thenall of those skills that we try
to work with couples on andpartners on are hopefully going
to help them to not experiencechurning or to do some
(25:47):
discernment and communication inthat period of breakup so that
it can be that they move aheadwith clarity, either out of the
relationship or moving aheadwith clarity, committed to the
relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, maybe mine.
I don't know if this is a term,but mindful churning right,
being able to really think, Ithink this through, yeah,
mindfully, intentionally,purposefully.
Yeah, okay, that's great.
Well, sarah, this has beenfascinating for us here.
Before we let you go, we have acouple of questions we like to
ask all of our guests, really.
(26:22):
The first one is in honor ofour podcast name Stronger
Marriage Connection.
In your mind, what do you feellike is a key to a stronger
marriage connection?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So I think what counts as a strong marriage
connection probably looksdifferent across lots of
partners and couples.
Marriage connection probablylooks different across lots of
partners and couples.
Some of the research findingsthat I see that seem to stretch
across.
Lots of people are investingtime and connecting, so that can
mean putting down devices,taking time together, and that
doesn't have to be serious time.
It can be fun time justinvesting in the relationship
(26:55):
and in the feelings ofconnection.
Like I was speaking to earlier,having healthy communication
and healthy ways of managingconflict, because a good
relationship doesn't mean neverdisagreeing, but it means
knowing how to manage thedisagreements in ways that
aren't destructive and then alsohaving clear and reasonable
expectations of your partner.
(27:16):
They're not mind readers.
They don't know what you wantand need.
So finding good ways to talkabout those expectations with
each other so that you can bethere for each other in the ways
that you each need.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, love it.
Great tips, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
And Sarah.
What can our listeners find outmore about you, this topic and
any of the great resources youhave created?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
So the research that I've talked about today, that
I've done and I spoke about someother colleagues research, but
that I've done is published inacademic journal articles, which
is not a super accessible placefor information.
I did do a webinar for theDibble Institute, which puts out
relationship educationresources, a couple years ago
(27:59):
and that's on their website.
So if folks want to see alittle bit more discussion about
these things, that's availablethere, and if anybody really has
a hankering for reading someacademic articles, those are out
there too.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
That's great Thanks.
We'll be sure to put thoselinks in our show notes for our
listeners, so go check those outif you want to learn more about
relationship churning.
All right, Sarah.
As we wrap up, we like to askour guests for their takeaway.
We call it a takeaway of theday.
Is there a piece of informationthat you hope that our
(28:35):
listeners will remember from ourdiscussion today?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
So I hope that they now feel like they know what
churning is and that it's fairlycommon, but that we should be
thoughtful about whether or notit's going to work for us as a
way to figure out the right wayforward in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
That's great, Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway today?
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Well, I think just Sarah has instilled some hope
that it isn't just an automatic.
Oh no, this is a a red red flagon your relationship.
Um, sometimes we just get stuck, I guess.
I guess we just do what we knowhow to do, right, which is
breakup and makeup.
Um, that doesn't necessarilyneed to um, define the
(29:19):
relationship, not just off thebat, anyway, like I thought when
we first started talking aboutthis, sarah.
So thank you for your insights.
What about you, Dave?
Is there a gold nugget here inour visit today with Dr Sarah
Halpern-Meekin?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, you've really expanded my thought processes
really about this phenomenon.
It's it's not necessarilyunhealthy or healthy, because
each situation, ranging from,you know, abuse and violence um
churning to, you know, highschool students who are in this,
you know, popular, I've gotsome right now.
Right, that it's kind of offagain sometimes.
(29:54):
Okay, now we're back and, uh,but there's just such a range of
this and the reasons, right,that the reasons behind this are
varied.
It's not like, oh man, if youjust wake up.
No, it's not like that.
There's all kinds of reasonsfor the why.
So really understanding eachindividual person's why in their
situation, and not just a bigblanket statement like, oh,
(30:15):
relationship, journey, you, yougot to get out of this mess.
No, it's very nuanced, very,very personal.
So, thank you, sarah.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
All right, friends.
That is all for us.
We will see you next time inanother episode of the Stronger
Marriage Connection podcast.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
And remember it's the small and simple things that
create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take good care now small andsimple things that create a
stronger marriage connection.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Take good care now.
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
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Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
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You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(31:03):
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Next, If you want even moreresources to improve your
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(31:24):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
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And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
(31:44):
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
Chances are you or a loved one has experienced a
relationship churning in yourlifetime.
You're in a relationship, thenbreak it off, then back in the
same relationship, then take abreak again.
Well, on today's episode, drLiz and I dive into this
relationship pattern with DrSarah Halpern-Meekin and we talk
about how common it is,characteristics of those who
(00:25):
relationship churn and why somepeople have struggles in it.
Dr Sarah Halpern Meekin is aprofessor of public affairs and
human development and familystudies at the University of
Wisconsin, madison, whoresearches romantic
relationships, includingon-again, off-again patterns,
social poverty and low-incomefamilies through mixed methods.
(00:45):
Her work examines howrelationship instability affects
parents and children, laborforce participation among
working-age men and the impactof unconditional cash assistance
on poor families.
She received her PhD insociology and social policy from
Harvard University.
We hope you enjoy the show.
(01:11):
Hey friends, welcome to StrongerMarriage Connection.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity, alongside Dr Liz
Hale, our licensed clinicalpsychologist and therapist.
We are aiming to bring you thevery best we have in valid
research and resources, alongwith some tips and tools to help
you create the marriage of yourdreams.
Well, have you ever known acouple who seem to break up and
(01:34):
get back together like clockwork.
Maybe you've experienced ityourself, that cycle of
splitting up and getting backtogether, only to split up again
in days or weeks or maybe evenmonths later.
This pattern is calledrelationship churning and it
affects millions of couples andcan create emotional whiplash,
(01:55):
not just for the partnersinvolved, but for their children
, for their friends and familymembers too.
Well, today we're joined by DrSarah Halpern-Meekin, a
sociologist from the Universityof Wisconsin-Madison who studied
this fascinating phenomenon tounderstand why couples fall into
this pattern, what it means fortheir well-being and how to
build more stable relationships.
(02:15):
Welcome, dr Halpern-Meekin, tothe show.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Okay, now I have to admit right up front, liz and
Sarah, I hadn't really heard ofthis concept.
I mean, I know people who'vebeen in and out of relationships
, but I haven't actually heardof relationship churning and it
had this little image in my head, almost like a washing machine
or something that's churning Tostart things off.
Can you tell us a little bitabout relationship churning?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Sure.
So some people use the term onagain, off again, relationships.
Other people talk aboutrelationship cyclicality.
I use the term relationshipchurning to refer to two forms
Primarily.
The first is having sex with anex.
The more commonly studied formis breaking up and getting back
together with the same person,and so for my generation, that
(03:06):
classic example is Ross andRachel on Friends being on a
break.
And what does that mean?
You know, in more recentdecades, we have Khloe
Kardashian and Tristan Thompsonbreaking up and getting back
together.
We have Taylor Swift singing,singing.
We're never, ever getting backtogether.
So you know, this idea ofchurning really pervades our,
(03:30):
our popular culture.
This will, they won't, they are, they aren't they, um, I think,
really captures our attentionyeah, yeah, it really does.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I, I know I've seen couples of churning um on again,
off again, and then they'relike, oh man, they're just,
they've been away, but nowthey're just driven and they
right, stay night over orwhatever at this other person's
place and I think, ah man, thisis.
I'm not sure how healthy someof this is, so I can't wait to
dive into this.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Sex with the ex.
That's pretty clever.
As far as pointing that term,even after divorce, I understand
.
Is that right, sarah, thatcouples getting back together
maybe for the sake of sex orcloseness or warmth?
Is that true as well?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I have not seen data on sex with an ex among formerly
married couples, but we lookedat it among cohabitors and young
adult relationships.
We looked at it amongcohabitors and we saw in young
adult relationships and we sawquite high rates among young
adults.
Over half who broke upcontinued some kind of sexual
relationship.
Nearly nine in 10 exes who hadsex attempted to reconcile so
(04:39):
that on again, off again,relationship and sex with an ex
can really kind of go hand inhand.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
So interesting.
You know this really has kindof a negative connotation to me
professionally, even personally,so I really appreciate you are
here to set the record straightthat it is not necessarily
hopeless.
It's really based just on apoor pattern, right that people
get stuck in.
That's the best way to describeit.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I think it looks different for different couples
and we just want to understand.
You know, as researchers, we'reinterested in understanding
some of the correlates of um, ofchurning relationships are
there?
Speaker 3 (05:17):
okay, I get it.
I you're just a perfectresearcher, like not necessarily
across the board everything,but it's based on the individual
couple.
How common is relationshipchurning, please, and why is it
so common?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So the data is kind of limited so we don't have good
national estimates of this.
But using a data set of youngadults in the Midwest, we see
that nearly half report churningin their present or most recent
relationship, so that doesn'tmean ever in their lives.
That means in their currentrelationship or in the one they
(05:51):
just left.
About half had broken up andgotten back together at least
once and the average number ofchurning episodes was two and a
half, which means that forpeople who do churn, doing it
more than once is the modalexperience among these young
adults.
We've also used data from astudy called the Future of
(06:13):
Families and Child Wellbeing.
That's a study that's ofparents and it's nationally
representative of people livingin the largest 20 metropolitan
areas in the United States.
Some of these parents weremarried and some of them were
not married when they welcomed achild and the survey has
followed these families overtime.
(06:35):
So me and Kristen Turney, myco-author, looked at what
happened in couples'relationships through the
child's fifth birthday and wesaw that by the child's fifth
birthday, 42% of couples werestill together.
14% were what we termed stablybroken up and single, so they
(06:58):
split from their originalpartner and didn't repartner.
Another 27% had stably brokenup and repartnered, and by
stably broken up here we meanthey broke up just that one time
and didn't churn, and 16% hadchurned at least once, and so
(07:18):
that means that churning amongthese parents was actually more
common than being stably brokenup and single.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Wow, well, ok, there's got to be psychological,
emotional impacts of repeatedlybreaking up and getting back
together.
I like that emotional whiplashyou were talking about, dave.
It's got to take a toll on thewell-being and even the ability
to trust.
No, does it set this precedence.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So when I look at the research I've done and work by
others in the field, you know wereally can't say anything
causal because we don't have thekind of data that allows us to
draw causal conclusions likedoes churning cause people to
feel a certain way?
Or is churning caused by certaindynamics or, you know,
(08:06):
personality, temperaments,things like that, or do they
just co-occur because of someother underlying factor?
So we don't know that, but wedo know for individuals, having
one episode of churning ispredictive of having future
episodes of churning, and thatincludes after beginning to
cohabit or marrying.
(08:26):
So this is not just somethingthat happens among people who
are in more casual relationships.
We know that churning isassociated with higher levels of
psychological distress, lowerrelationship satisfaction, lower
dedication and commitment andworse communication.
But and we were surprised tofind this it was associated with
(08:50):
higher intimate self-disclosureand that's a term that I'm sure
, dr Liz, you're better atdescribing this as a therapist,
but my understanding is you knowthat's about partners sharing
their intimate thoughts andfeelings with each other,
feeling like this other personreally understands them and they
can share about themselves.
(09:11):
More concerning, we see thatchurners are more likely to
report conflict and intimateabuse and desistance.
So stopping abuse patterns ismore likely among couples that
stably separate than those whochurn.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Wow.
And then we looked at theeffects of children on those
that have children and churningcouples.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, we have looked at those dynamics and we see,
you know perhaps a hopeful notethat churning fathers are more
involved with their childrenthan stably broken up fathers.
So we see, you know, thatconnection between the parents
translating over into a moreongoing connection between
fathers and children.
(09:54):
We do see that parents who arechurning report higher levels of
parenting stress than parentswho are stably broken up or who
are stably together.
And so some of those dynamicsthat challenge the relationship
as romantic partners may alsochallenge their parenting or
their co-parenting relationship.
(10:16):
We do see some differences inchildren's outcomes between
those who are growing up inchurning families and those in
other families.
But those are largely explainedby differences in demographic
and economic characteristicsbetween families.
So you know, any differences wesee in children's internalizing
(10:39):
or externalizing behavior.
So, like behavior patterns ormental health challenges,
differences in teenagersromantic relationship behaviors,
teenagers romantic relationshipbehaviors, those tend to be
accounted for by those otherfactors as opposed to seeming to
be caused by their parents'romantic relationship dynamics.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, that's interesting.
And, sarah, I mean obviously wedon't have records that
probably go back centuries orwhatever to see, but I'm
assuming that this has alwaysbeen around.
Any kind of like spikes in anyof this, or is it more common in
young adult relationships, andwhat does that mean?
You know different demographictrends.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, so we could speculate.
You know that some of thehigher rates of turning that we
see among younger adultscompared to parents, for example
, could be in part due to lifestage, like maybe people are
just having less committedrelationships in the first place
, for example.
Or it could also be due to theneed that you need to develop
skills at navigatingrelationships.
(11:43):
Like that can include knowingwhat kind of conflict is normal.
It can include knowing how tomanage conflict in a healthy way
, and you know we also sometimesare having really big emotions
in our younger years, andsometimes those even out as we
get older.
So all of those things couldmake these churning episodes
(12:11):
particularly likely during theearly years.
But, like you were saying, youknow we would need much more
extensive data in order to beable to speak to that over time.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
When parents have children, do they try a little
harder?
Is there less churning, morechurning?
I'm curious about the parentswho have children.
We've talked about the effectson children.
That's pretty tough,understandably right, but what
about those parents who havechildren?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Well, so I can't exactly speak to that, because
often surveys follow peoplestarting when they have the kid,
and so we don't get to observewhat happened before they had
the child.
But when we use the data thatwe have on young adults and then
when you use the data that wehave on parents who are, you
know, on average a few yearsolder, we see much higher rates
(13:04):
of churning among those youngadults than we do among parents.
Whether that's due to becomingparents or whether that's due to
the fact that they are older orthat they are in a relationship
with a person who they feel alittle bit more committed to and
that's why they've gone aheadand had a child together.
(13:24):
We can't really say for sure,but it certainly suggests that
we don't see a similarly highlevel of churning across the
board.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in.
And we're back, let's diveright in.
I can't help but think, sarah,that this also affects the kind
(13:56):
of the spillover effect intofriends and family that you know
that we start kind of gettingattached.
Or you go to a family party andyou know people start to get to
know this person and then it'soff and then people are like, oh
my goodness, or you know what ajerk or whatever it is, and
then the next party they're back, you know, then they're gone.
How does this affect friendsand family, loved ones of this,
(14:19):
this journey?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
see, you know what I can learn, but I'm not aware of
anything that tells us aboutthat spillover effect outside of
the nuclear family.
You know, we've certainly allheard that advice don't bad
mouth your friend's ex, sincethey can come back to hurt your
friendship when they get backtogether.
So you know, I think that thatadvice exists for a reason
because it's come back to bitetoo many people when they've
been like it's good you're ridof him and then he shows back up
(14:52):
.
But I also think you know whatyou're speaking to can make us
think about some of the ritualswe have around supporting
relationships.
You know, as a community it'snot uncommon at wedding
ceremonies, for example, for theofficiant to ask those gathered
(15:15):
to make a show of commitment tothe couple, right to supporting
the couple.
And we can imagine that turningcould make it more difficult
for a community to commit tosupporting a relationship or
that they could have seen acouple travel through those
challenges and emerge on theother side stronger for them and
(15:35):
could feel very supportive ofthem for that reason.
But there's a reason that weask family and friends to commit
to supporting couples in ourrituals and it's because those
are meaningful things to doright that a relationship
doesn't just survive or fail onits own.
It does so in the setting of acommunity and so that the way
(16:00):
that a relationship is receivedand supported or not by those
around us matters.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, I can see the flip side of this, sarah, as
well, in instances of abuse orviolence or something.
And then they keep going backand the friends and family are
thinking why are you turning?
You know what's what's going on.
So I can see both sides of ofthis.
I don't know if there's anyagain research on that, but I'm
sure his friends and familywould be so, uh, devastated,
(16:26):
heartbroken with the churningthat's going on, an unhealthy
situation.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yes, and often it does take some time before
people are able to leave abusiveor unsafe situations, and so
that's obviously difficult, bothfor the person in the situation
as well as for the family andfriends who are trying to
support them.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Do you have any advice in those situations?
Sarah, I know you're aresearcher, but do you have any
suggestions for those that'swatching a loved one who's
churning, or even maybe there issome abuse?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
So I wouldn't speak to what to do to help somebody
who's in an abusive relationship, because that takes a level of
expertise that is outside myarea.
When it comes to somebodyseeing churning going on, I
think we can look to theresearch to understand why we
(17:20):
see people breaking up andgetting back together, and we
see a set of relationshipfactors that are associated with
that churning.
So when breakups are one-sidedas opposed to mutual, we're more
likely to see churning becausethere was one person who didn't
want to break up.
When there are higher rates ofintimate self-disclosure, like I
(17:42):
mentioned before, and so thatmeans there's some kind of
connection between the couplethat they might be reluctant to
leave behind.
When partners expressuncertainty about why they broke
up in the first place, we seehigher rates of churning.
When there's lingeringattachments or feelings after a
breakup, we see higher rates ofchurning.
(18:03):
When people assess the breakupas having improved the
relationship in some way maybeit allowed them to resolve an
issue or gave them the space todo so and when people are living
together, we see higher ratesof churning.
And when people are livingtogether, we see higher rates of
churning.
So those are those sort ofindividual level or couple level
(18:23):
factors that we can look at.
We also see some more structuralor situational factors that are
associated with churning.
So the couple experiencingeconomic distress, having
history of incarceration, orexperiencing a partner's
(18:44):
incarceration, a parent'srelationship history, so parents
having more breakups, forexample.
And when structural orsituational factors are what are
undermining the relationship asopposed to qualities within the
relationship, we could imaginethat couples who weather those
stressors might be drawn backtogether because it wasn't
(19:05):
really a problem in therelationship per se that caused
the breakup in the first place,so they might be more likely to
turn.
It's obviously much less thansomeone's control to affect
(19:35):
their structural position, right, you can't affect your parents'
relationship history, forexample.
Those are think about whetherthere's a good reason to believe
that the relationship is goingto proceed in a healthy way
before getting back together.
Like, has whatever caused thebreakup in the first place
actually changed?
Changed?
(20:01):
And I think about the advice ofScott Stanley and Howard
Markman, who are psychologistswho have encouraged people to
decide not slide in theirrelationships.
Right, and so we don't want tojust get back together because
it hurts so much to be broken up.
We want to kind of push thebrakes and think about.
Are things really different now?
Is there a good reason tobelieve that this is going to be
a healthy dynamic for us,moving forward, or that the
(20:25):
challenges we addressed in thepast, um, we have figured out a
way to deal with together movingforward?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
and that could be challenging, right, sir?
Because it's you're talkingabout this rational thought okay
, really thinking that ratherthan the emotional like oh, but
we've shared so much and we havethis and they really get me,
type of a thing.
So being able to step out ofthat emotional reasoning to that
logical, rational, you know,prefrontal cortex type of
(20:54):
reasoning, is probably not easybecause a lot of the I don't
know if some of these decisionsare made from the back part,
right, the limbic system, thisemotional type of brain.
Any thoughts there?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I mean certainly when we see that having sex with an
ex increases your likelihood oftrying to get back together.
I think that speaks to thatsort of emotional or connective
drive being in the driver's seatas opposed to the, you know,
more rational brain.
(21:26):
I don't know that we alwayswant, we don't want to always
just make decisions, you know,up here and not back here, but
we want to allow space for thoseconsiderations too.
And so some of that meanstrying to sit with the
discomfort of the breakup andhaving enough distance from it
(21:47):
that we're not doing whatimmediately addresses that
emotional pain.
Right, because the thing thatmost immediately will make that
pain feel like it goes away isto get back together.
And that might be the rightdecision and it might not be.
But we might not be in aposition to say that if we're
sort of reacting as opposed toassessing and then acting.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Two people really kind of doing their own work, I
suppose.
Right, maybe it belongs to bothpartners.
Absolutely, it's a churningpattern, absolutely.
So we'd recommend individualtherapy, hopefully, or just a
real honest look in the mirror.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, I think it depends on what kind of issues
partners are managing and whatkind of resources they have.
You know, unfortunately forcouples with more limited
resources, for example, Medicaiddoes not pay for marriage
therapy and those kinds ofthings, right?
So not everyone has access tothose sorts of resources.
(22:50):
But trying to do some of theself-assessment, some of the
self-reflection, as best we canwith the resources we have, yeah
, that's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Is there a point, sarah, do you think of no return
, this point of no return, whererelationship churning,
reconciliation, just becomesmore harmful than helpful or
healthy?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
I would guess there is.
You know, when we were doingthis relationship churning
research using the data fromyoung adults, we top coded the
number of churning episodes at10.
So that means that anybody whowas reporting that they had
churned more than 10 times weonly counted as having churned
(23:32):
10 times.
Because there were someoutliers who reported very high
levels of churning episodes,even though they were, you know,
maybe in their late teens orearly 20s, and I can't, you know
.
I don't know what dynamics theywere dealing with, but I'd
imagine those were prettycomplex and probably not super,
(23:53):
super healthy.
But we unfortunately don't havethe data to follow
relationships over time to makethat kind of determination that
you're speaking to.
So I think that really speaksto why having robust data
infrastructure is so important,because knowing the answer to
that question could really helppsychologists and family
(24:15):
therapists and others to supportpeople in discerning a healthy
path forward with theirrelationships.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, wouldn't that just be wonderful to have that
magic bullet answer.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Which then speaks.
I don't know if you have theanswer then to this one, sarah,
but as a, as an extension,specialist right, and here at
with Utah Marriage Commission,we produce all kinds of
resources.
If it was you and you'reteaching a relationship
education class, you come uponchurning.
(24:46):
Do you just provide informationor any kind of guidance, or be
careful, or do you just whatwould you say?
I guess what would you offer ifyou're talking about premarital
education or marriage educationcourse, what do you suggest?
Or to help?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, I would come back to some of the skills that
are fundamental to therelationship education curricula
that I've seen.
So those things around you knowhow to do communication in a
way that's effective, how tohave conflict in a healthy way,
how to set up expectationsappropriately.
(25:24):
So if churning is somethingthat is born of conflict that is
not being managed well, thenall of those skills that we try
to work with couples on andpartners on are hopefully going
to help them to not experiencechurning or to do some
(25:47):
discernment and communication inthat period of breakup so that
it can be that they move aheadwith clarity, either out of the
relationship or moving aheadwith clarity, committed to the
relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, maybe mine.
I don't know if this is a term,but mindful churning right,
being able to really think, Ithink this through, yeah,
mindfully, intentionally,purposefully.
Yeah, okay, that's great.
Well, sarah, this has beenfascinating for us here.
Before we let you go, we have acouple of questions we like to
ask all of our guests, really.
(26:22):
The first one is in honor ofour podcast name Stronger
Marriage Connection.
In your mind, what do you feellike is a key to a stronger
marriage connection?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So I think what counts as a strong marriage
connection probably looksdifferent across lots of
partners and couples.
Marriage connection probablylooks different across lots of
partners and couples.
Some of the research findingsthat I see that seem to stretch
across.
Lots of people are investingtime and connecting, so that can
mean putting down devices,taking time together, and that
doesn't have to be serious time.
It can be fun time justinvesting in the relationship
(26:55):
and in the feelings ofconnection.
Like I was speaking to earlier,having healthy communication
and healthy ways of managingconflict, because a good
relationship doesn't mean neverdisagreeing, but it means
knowing how to manage thedisagreements in ways that
aren't destructive and then alsohaving clear and reasonable
expectations of your partner.
(27:16):
They're not mind readers.
They don't know what you wantand need.
So finding good ways to talkabout those expectations with
each other so that you can bethere for each other in the ways
that you each need.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, love it.
Great tips, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
And Sarah.
What can our listeners find outmore about you, this topic and
any of the great resources youhave created?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
So the research that I've talked about today, that
I've done and I spoke about someother colleagues research, but
that I've done is published inacademic journal articles, which
is not a super accessible placefor information.
I did do a webinar for theDibble Institute, which puts out
relationship educationresources, a couple years ago
(27:59):
and that's on their website.
So if folks want to see alittle bit more discussion about
these things, that's availablethere, and if anybody really has
a hankering for reading someacademic articles, those are out
there too.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
That's great Thanks.
We'll be sure to put thoselinks in our show notes for our
listeners, so go check those outif you want to learn more about
relationship churning.
All right, Sarah.
As we wrap up, we like to askour guests for their takeaway.
We call it a takeaway of theday.
Is there a piece of informationthat you hope that our
(28:35):
listeners will remember from ourdiscussion today?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
So I hope that they now feel like they know what
churning is and that it's fairlycommon, but that we should be
thoughtful about whether or notit's going to work for us as a
way to figure out the right wayforward in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
That's great, Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway today?
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Well, I think just Sarah has instilled some hope
that it isn't just an automatic.
Oh no, this is a a red red flagon your relationship.
Um, sometimes we just get stuck, I guess.
I guess we just do what we knowhow to do, right, which is
breakup and makeup.
Um, that doesn't necessarilyneed to um, define the
(29:19):
relationship, not just off thebat, anyway, like I thought when
we first started talking aboutthis, sarah.
So thank you for your insights.
What about you, Dave?
Is there a gold nugget here inour visit today with Dr Sarah
Halpern-Meekin?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, you've really expanded my thought processes
really about this phenomenon.
It's it's not necessarilyunhealthy or healthy, because
each situation, ranging from,you know, abuse and violence um
churning to, you know, highschool students who are in this,
you know, popular, I've gotsome right now.
Right, that it's kind of offagain sometimes.
(29:54):
Okay, now we're back and, uh,but there's just such a range of
this and the reasons, right,that the reasons behind this are
varied.
It's not like, oh man, if youjust wake up.
No, it's not like that.
There's all kinds of reasonsfor the why.
So really understanding eachindividual person's why in their
situation, and not just a bigblanket statement like, oh,
(30:15):
relationship, journey, you, yougot to get out of this mess.
No, it's very nuanced, very,very personal.
So, thank you, sarah.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
All right, friends.
That is all for us.
We will see you next time inanother episode of the Stronger
Marriage Connection podcast.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
And remember it's the small and simple things that
create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take good care now small andsimple things that create a
stronger marriage connection.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Take good care now.
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(31:03):
Stronger Marriage Life andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, If you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(31:24):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
(31:44):
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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