Dr. Brian Doss shares a science-backed digital resource called Our Relationship that helps couples identify relationship challenges and implement effective solutions through a structured framework.
• Our Relationship program has been continuously funded by the NIH for 15 years and helped tens of thousands of couples
• The DEEP framework helps couples understand Differences, Emotions, External stress, and Patterns of communication
• Surface emotions like anger often mask hidden emotions like hurt, loneliness, or feeling disconnected
• "Invisible support" like doing household tasks before your partner notices can significantly reduce relationship stress
• Expressing gratitude for small actions helps maintain positive connections with your partner
• The program takes approximately 8-10 hours and offers optional coaching support
• Free versions are available for military families and qualifying households based on income
• Research shows the program improves not just relationships but also mental health, physical health, and family functioning
Visit OurRelationship.com to learn more about the program, which is available both online and through app stores.
Brian's Resources
https://www.ourrelationship.com/
Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways:
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
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http://www.drlizhale.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
When it comes to online resources to strengthen
your relationship, there arecountless options, but on
today's episode, dr Liz and Iwelcome Dr Brian Doss to the
show and he shares ascience-backed resource called
Our Relationship that is one ofthe most helpful out there.
Out there, we dive into theDEEP or D-E-E-P framework,
(00:28):
breaking down differences,discussing emotions, stress and
unhealthy patterns ofcommunications.
It's been around for more than15 years and it's helped tens of
thousands of couples.
Dr Brian D Doss is a professorof psychology at the University
of Miami and co-founder andpresident of Our Relationship.
His research program focuses onincreasing the reach and
president of Our Relationship.
His research program focuses onincreasing the reach and
effectiveness of coupleinterventions, with a special
(00:50):
focus on technology.
His digital Our Relationshipprogram has been continuously
funded by the NationalInstitutes of Health, the
Administration for Children andFamilies for more than 15 years.
Dr Doss has over 125professional publications and is
co-author of the Therapist'sManual for Integrative
Behavioral Couple Therapy, oneof the three couple therapies
(01:13):
with the highest level ofempirical support.
Dr Doss's research has beenfeatured on the Today Show, cnn,
msnbc, the New York Times, theMiami Herald and elsewhere.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey, friends, welcome toanother episode of Stronger
(01:35):
Marriage Connection podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity alongside Dr Liz Hale
, our licensed clinicalpsychologist and therapist.
Our aim really is to bring youthe very best we have in
relationship resources andresearch, along with some tips
and tools to help you create themarriage of your dreams.
All right, liz, we know todaythere are more relationship
(01:58):
resources today than ever beforeand, even more specifically,
I'd say, more online resourcesto help couples strengthen their
marriage connection.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
You know, it's a really good time to be married,
right, I think, or to thinkabout getting married.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Oh, absolutely.
There's so many helps out there, but the question is, how do
you know which ones to trust andwhich ones are research-based
and the ones that are reallyworth it?
We're here to discuss severalonline relationship tools and
resources.
As a friend and colleague fromall the way down in Southern
Florida, the University of Miami, dr Brian Doss Welcome to the
(02:35):
show, my friend.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's great to be with you.
We're looking forward tohearing all you have to say
about so many resources and thegreat work you've been doing
down there in Miami and, Brian,you have been you've been at
this for 20 plus years now,researching, you're counseling,
you're creating resources,you're publishing tools all to
(02:59):
help couples.
Tell us a little bit about theevolution, maybe first, of these
online resources available Justthe last decade.
It feels like things havereally exploded.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah, they have definitely.
Well, you know, I got my startas a kind of more traditional
couples therapist.
That's kind of what my trainingwas originally.
We developed the OurRelationship program with our
digital application all the wayback in 2009 as a way to
essentially kind of increase thereach of those services.
But you're right, it's reallybeen in the last 10 years, and
(03:32):
especially kind of COVID, thatreally has accelerated the
development of the onlineprograms.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I think that's so exciting.
In addition to these onlineresources, brian, there are all
kinds of new, fun, innovativeways for couples to stay
connected and improve theirrelationship.
What are some of your favorites?
Something you really like tomake sure couples know about the
resources and the tools, myfriend, what are they?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, Well, because I think you bring up a good point
in that what you really want todo is find the right thing for
your relationship, because Ithink there's some kind of
lighter touch things that youcan do that are kind of more
playful.
There's card decks and thingslike that.
There are also apps that youcan kind of ask each other
(04:17):
questions or have the app askyou questions and if you both
respond you can see each other'sresponses and things like that,
you know.
So those are kind of moreplayful where something like the
Our Relationship program youknow that's really we think
about that as a digital tool tosolve relationship problems.
So you know that's kind of lessplayful and more planful, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Are there different categories?
I don't know about OurRelationship, but I will now.
Are there different categories,right?
How does this work?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Different categories of the app.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
You said our relationship.
Is that what it's called?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Yeah, it is, and I'm happy to kind of dive into that.
That's what we've been workingon for all the way since 2009.
So, over however long that is,I'm losing count.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, 15, 16 years.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah, so it's been a long time.
We developed that program uhthrough in variety of federal
funding and tested it with avariety of different um, you
know, populations and thingslike that, so happy to kind of
talk about that yeah, in fact,liz, that's one that we have on
our um the stronger marriagewebsite, the utah, the marriage
(05:24):
commission.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
That's one of the few programs that we actually
highlight and say, hey, this isa trusted resource.
So right there, yeah, for ourlisteners.
If you want a quick version,you go to StrongerMarriageorg,
our website.
Click on that.
So tell us, let's dive into ourrelationship.
Tell us a little about theprogram and the primary aims.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, sure.
So, as I mentioned, we thinkabout it as a digital tool to
solve relationship problems.
So we know that there areeffective couple therapies out
there.
The challenge is most couplesdon't seek couples therapy, or
those that do, they wait way toolong to seek it.
So what we've done is we'veadapted our effective couple
(06:07):
therapy program to the OurRelationship program and it
takes couples through athree-step process where they
identify a relationship problemthat they're struggling with and
we help them better understandthat relationship problem and
then eventually provide tailoredtips to solve those problems.
And we have, you know, withinour relationship we have
(06:29):
programs tailored for a varietyof couple types as well as a
variety of relationship issues,because we think it's really to
you know, meet couples wherethey are.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Is this, would you say, is there?
You know, a primary audience Isthis what you say.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Is there a primary audience?
Is this for those who are justcurious?
They're doing pretty good Forthose who are see everybody from
couples who are engaged andabout to be married they're
doing it as part of an effort tosome premarital education or
those types of things to coupleswho have recently discovered
their partner is cheating onthem and they're trying to
figure out whether they can savetheir relationship.
(07:18):
So we really do see a widevariety of couples.
I think the ideal person to doour relationship is somebody who
there's been something in theirrelationship that they have
struggled for a while to try toimprove or fix, and that could
be something that they'relacking, that they miss or they
(07:42):
see in other relationships, orit could be, you know, the
presence of a positive they'rearguing a lot, or some or sorry,
presence of a negative they'rearguing a lot, or something like
that.
So you know that's the personwho I think we want, somebody
who wants to solve that issueand, you know, are willing to
either do that on their own orwith their partner and kind of
(08:03):
actively make a commitment.
Either do that on their own orwith their partner and kind of
actively to do that.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Just a little bit more about it, brian.
How?
How's it different?
I guess?
I mean you you hit Google andyou you know relationship
resources.
You're going to have a millionthings pop up.
Tell us a little bit more aboutyours and how unique it is.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Right?
Well, I I think one thing that'sthat's really important about
what we do is is we have studiedand test everything that's
publicly available and so we cansay with confidence you know,
after working with thousands andthousands of couples, that we
know this program is effectiveand we know that it's effective
(08:47):
in improving a lot of differenttypes of relationship issues.
So we help couples with allsorts of different problems.
We know that we can improveemotional intimacy, sexual
intimacy, as well as decreaseconflict and aggression and
those types of things.
So that's exciting.
So we know that it affects alot of areas of the relationship
.
The other thing that we'rereally excited about is that
we've shown that, because therelationship is improving,
(09:09):
people's mental health improves,their physical health improves,
they're sleeping a lot betterand things like that, and even
their families are doing better,they're able to parent better,
they're reporting fewer problemswith their children either
getting into trouble at schoolor fewer depression and anxiety.
So, at the end of the day, youknow, to sum all that up, we
(09:32):
know that it works, and I thinkthere's very few programs out
there that can say the samething.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, I love hearing and I read a bunch of the
research, the studies on thisthat are backing that up.
I love that it is.
It's science-based,research-based.
You've done quite a bit of workon this, remind me.
I can't remember if you talkedabout it.
As far as the length, I don'tknow average length, I guess
couples expect okay, what isthis and how long is this going
(10:00):
to last?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, it's about depending on if you're working
on one or two relationshipissues at the same time.
It's somewhere in theneighborhood of about eight to
10 hours of content, which whichsounds may sound a little bit
kind of intensive or scary.
But you know, we do take youthrough kind of step by step and
if couples elect to do so, theycan also work with a coach as
(10:25):
they move through the program.
So we've tested the programboth with and without a coach.
We know that it works for both,but it's always nice to have
that coach that acts as apersonal trainer to kind of keep
you on track and tweak thetechniques and other types of
things that you're learningthroughout the program, other
types of things that you'relearning throughout the program.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Love that option.
Love that option.
And Liz is familiar.
I mean, I love Liz's approach.
Actually I'm not a therapist,liz is, but she's about intense
sessions, because sometimes 50minutes is really hard, and so
wouldn't you agree, liz?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Oh my gosh.
You know an hour session is agreat way to feel like a bad
therapist.
It just is.
There is no substitute for time.
So, as a couple, we're going tospend eight to 10 hours talking
about this topic, right?
Whatever the topic might be, wemay as well spend eight to 10
hours in a program like ourrelationship and really get some
good help, right?
So we're going to spend thattime anyway.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah, and you know those in-person sessions are
great.
You know I'm a big fan ofcouples therapy but we know that
for a lot of our folks theycan't find time to do it with
their partner or the time thatthey have is on the weekends or
in the evening, middle of thenight or on the way home from
work or whatever it is.
And so the flexibility of theprogram that you can kind of do
(11:41):
it on your phone, do it whenyou're separated from your
partner, you don't have tophysically be together, and then
the program brings you and yourpartner together for those
moments where you are going toshare kind of what you're
working on.
So it's a lot more flexiblethat way than kind of
traditional couples therapy.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
So exciting.
I love this whole idea.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
and we're back, let's dive right in you and your
colleagues my friend have alsocreated a framework to help
couples better understand theirchallenges, and we all have them
right.
And you call it deep d-e-e-p.
Can you help us walk throughthat acronym and how it's
helpful for all of us as couples?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Yeah.
So you know I mentioned kind ofthe Our Relationship Program is
a three-step process kind ofidentifying a problem,
understanding and theneventually solving it.
So the deep understanding comesin in that middle section, the
understand section.
And you know we feel likethat's important.
Because you important becauseif you're in an unhappy
(12:57):
relationship and if I were toask you what's wrong in your
relationship, you're probablygoing to point across the room
and say there, that's what'swrong, meaning your partner, and
that's natural, because you'vestruggled for a while to kind of
work on this issue, tounderstand this issue, and
you've been trying to changeyour partner or trying to do
(13:18):
things differently and yourpartner is not cooperating for
some reason.
So we tend to kind ofexperience our unhappy
relationships as a very simpleexplanation of if my partner
would just change things wouldbe okay.
But oftentimes it's morecomplicated.
So the deep framework or thatdeep understanding is a way to
(13:40):
try to give couples kind of amore accurate, kind of less
blaming understanding of theirrelationship problems.
So it is an acronym.
So D stands for differences.
So there we're talking aboutnatural differences like
personality or maybe emotionalexpressiveness.
Some people are easily able tolabel and identify their issues
(14:04):
and kind of talk about emotions.
Some people aren't, otherpeople are going to be more
extroverted, other people aren't.
So you want to think aboutwhere are the two of you
naturally different and to whatextent is that driving your
relationship problems?
Does that make sense so far?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
That we're different, right?
No kidding, yep, uh-huh.
Okay, let's go to the E, thefirst E of deep, please.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, so the first E that we like to talk about is
emotions and, not surprisingly,emotions play a very important
role in our romanticrelationships.
You know, we're in arelationship because of the
positive emotions that it bringsright and we will often think
about, kind of you know lots ofpositive emotions or you know
(14:52):
lots of negative emotions.
But there's another distinctionthat we really try to encourage
couples to make, which is kindof a surface emotion versus a
hidden emotion.
So a surface emotion areessentially the emotions that
you express to your partner andthat you see from your partner
and when you're in an unhappyrelationship, and that you see
(15:14):
from your partner and whenyou're in an unhappy
relationship.
A lot of the surface emotionsthat we see are the anger and
the frustration, or sometimesit's the lack of emotion, it's
the withdrawal or thedefensiveness and what's
happening there is.
Those are sort of our reactions.
Those are what are calledsecondary emotions.
The hidden emotions are theprimary emotions.
(15:34):
So when something happens oryour partner does something, you
experience this hidden emotion,this primary emotion.
It might be hurt, it might be,you know, feeling lonely, it
might be feeling disconnected,jealous, you know.
Whatever it is, we're feelingkind of these more vulnerable
emotions but instead of kind ofvoicing those, we act on them
(15:59):
and you know, we kind of showour surface emotions and so the
challenge is for couples who aretrying to work through kind of
relationship issues is firstidentifying what are those
hidden emotions that they'reexperiencing and then starting
to express those hidden emotionswhich we're going to pick up
kind of towards the end of thedeep understanding.
(16:20):
But you can imagine if, insteadof reacting to your partner
with I can't believe you didthat to me, that was so
disrespectful you lead with thatreally hurt me when you did
that.
You know it's a scarier thingto say, but it also invites a
much more kind of open andhonest and probably hopefully
(16:43):
eventually, you know productiveconversation.
But you need to be able torecognize those.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Oh, I love it, you're going to get a much better
response from a partner.
Right, Right.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Not having to defend themselves.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Okay, so I love this.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Going to get a much better response from a partner
right Right Not having to defendthemselves.
Okay.
So I love this so differenceand emotions, secondary versus
primary, and then the second Eplease in deep.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, the second E is external stress Our creating
problems in our relationship.
Our car breaks down and nowwe've got to figure out how to
deal with it.
That's a problem that, as acouple, we have to navigate.
Or sometimes we've just had areally bad day at work and we
come home through the door andour partner's talking to us
(17:24):
about something else and theonly thing we can think about
doing is just how?
We just want to sit down andchange our clothes and all of
those types of things, becausewe've had such a bad day at work
and even though our partner'stalking to us about something
completely different, we justcan't hear it.
So stress has lots of differentimpacts on our relationships
(17:45):
that make them more difficult tonavigate.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
And then the P of deep, please.
We got difference, we gotemotions, external stress and P
stands for.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
P is patterns of communication.
So patterns, you know, we talka lot about.
You know, and I'm sure lots ofyour listeners are kind of I've
heard about kind of thespeaker-listener technique and
the problem-solving structuresand things like that and those
are all really important kind ofaspects of communication and
kind of can help us expressthose deep emotions or those
(18:18):
hidden emotions, for example.
But the thing we focus on a lotwith the patterns of
communication is the cycles thatwe get into over time.
And so let's imagine let'sstart to construct a deep
understanding for a couple.
And so, you know, let's imaginelet's start to construct a deep
understanding for a couple.
So let's imagine there's acouple who is, you know, maybe
(18:40):
they have natural difference inhow much closeness they want.
You know one person likes tospend a lot of time together,
the other person doesn't, forexample.
And you know, maybe somebodykind of gets a job where they're
traveling, so that's theexternal stress.
So you take this naturaldifference and then you pull the
person, you know one personaway even longer.
So we've got external stressand so they feel these emotions
(19:03):
of.
You know, I'm kind of lonely,I'm feeling distant from you,
but that's not what they express.
What they express is the youknow, the anger that they're
taking another trip, right?
So you've got these threepieces coming into play.
Now we have to look at thepattern.
Well, what happens when thatperson expresses that anger?
(19:25):
Well, probably what's going tohappen is the other person's
going to withdraw, or they'regoing to defend themselves.
You know, I need to take thistrip.
I have to for my job.
I don't want to, it's just partof what I have to do.
So they defend themselves.
Well now, maybe the next time atrip comes up, maybe they know
(19:46):
this fight's going to happen,right?
So they don't even ask theirpartner whether they can take
this trip.
They just agree to this trip.
And now the other partner findsout wait, you agreed to take
this trip without even tellingme.
And so what happens is theystart to polarize over time.
And so what starts is thisnatural difference and these
kind of emotional, naturalexperiences and emotions they're
(20:09):
having.
They start to get more and moreextreme over time.
And so, even though they bothwanted to be in this
relationship, they start to getmore and more extreme over time.
And so, even though they bothwanted to be in this
relationship, they both wantedto spend time with each other.
They both enjoy spending timewith each other.
Now all they can do is fightabout how much time they're
spending together and how theother person is being so
unreasonable, and so that's whatwe start to see with these
(20:31):
patterns of communication isthat how they have interacted
over time has really driven themto a place where they kind of
almost don't even recognizetheir relationship anymore.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Wow, brian, and I'm just processing all of this.
Yeah, this is fascinating forme as one who hasn't done
therapy.
But it feels like thesepatterns of you get someone that
just reacts to someone'sbehavior with a behavior instead
of going deeper andunderstanding the person is hurt
or lonely or isolated, and thenit makes them angry or anxious
(21:07):
or fearful, yeah, and then.
But it comes out as a hey, youare the blame, and so we're on
the outside here with behaviors,instead of saying, hey, let me
truly understand, yeah, thefeelings, is that right?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Yeah, that's right and I think it's totally normal,
you know, if that makes sense.
I mean, I think we operate alot of our time on autopilot and
you know, I think kind ofthat's how we deal with
situations in our life.
We react rather than and wedon't actually really examine
why we're reacting that way andfor most of the time being on
(21:45):
autopilot in our relationshipand driving.
There's lots of advantages tothat.
There's just so many thingshappening that we can't examine
everything.
But if you and your partner arereally kind of struggling with
something, you really kind ofneed to flip that autopilot off
and take the time to say, likewait a second, like why am I you
know, this is somebody I lovewhy am I reacting in this way
(22:07):
and why is my partner reactingin this way, and start to kind
of really think about that andthink about how you could handle
that differently.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's very well named.
It's a very well named acronymDEEP.
It helps us go a little deeper.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
A little deeper.
Yeah, I love that.
So that's really what ourrelationship is about taking and
helping couples with theirdifferences, breaking them down,
kind of pulling the curtainsaside and saying, hey look,
you're in this destructivepattern, let's go a little bit
deeper and find out.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, and the great thing about apps is we can do
assessments and we can givepeople feedback on where their
differences are.
For example, we'll takeinformation from the partner or
take information from the user,show them where they're
different and give them tips andsuggestions based on kind of
that content, because we knowcouples differ in lots of
(23:01):
different ways.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, Well, let me take that a step further, brian,
with some of that data.
I mean you've been doing thisagain like 20 years.
You collected all kinds ofthings.
You're discovering things.
Do you have some our listeners?
They love practical tips theycan use to strengthen their
marriage.
What have you learned over theyears that might be helpful for
couples who are looking forsimple things they can help
their relationship with rightnow, right now, today, to
(23:23):
overcome the challenges andbecome closer?
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah, because you're right.
I mean, a lot of times it isthe day-to-day things that we
kind of think about or don'tthink about.
So you know, the smaller typesof things I think are the
invisible support.
So you know, lots of times whenwe think about supporting our
partners it's there with atissue in hand.
(23:48):
You know they're crying on ourshoulder and sometimes that's
what our partner needs.
They're crying on our shoulderand sometimes that's what our
partner needs.
But a lot of times what ourpartner needs is for us to do
the dishes before they evenrealize that the dishes need to
be done.
And so this idea of invisiblesupport, where we're taking
stress out of our partner'slives so that if they've had a
(24:10):
tough day or they're strugglingwith something, we remove some
of those barriers, we removesome of those other stressors so
that they have the time to dealwith whatever it is that they
need to do.
So that's this idea ofinvisible support.
One other kind of thing justkind of showing how important it
(24:35):
is to recognize that we'regrateful for our partner.
And that can be something thatyou know you're doing in sort of
prayer, kind of being thankfulfor praying for your partner, or
it could be other ways thatyou're kind of recognizing that
you're grateful for your partner.
And then, of course, we want totell our partners that we're
grateful for them.
So thank you very much, and itdoesn't have to be this earth
(24:58):
shattering kind of somethingyou'd grab from a Valentine's
Day card.
It can thank you for cleaningup the kitchen.
I really appreciate that.
It's just the simple stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I love that and it's hard to feel some of that when
we're feeling resentful, right,it's hard to notice things or to
give compliments or to man,maybe if I serve them or did
this because we're so caught up,you know, or I guess we're
turned inside with all thoseother things and our emotions
are stressed.
I love the idea of breakingthis down and get back to some
of these, these basics ofturning outward with gratitude
(25:36):
or, yeah, serving and loving andlifting.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Ah, helpful, thank you and I do find whatever we
focus on grows right or I'llfind the evidence, for I think
he's a stinker pants.
I'm going to find the evidenceof my husband being a stinker
pants If I find, if I focus onwow, he is just such a good
partner, just always, alwaysthere to meet my needs.
I will see things.
I.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Yeah, and both things can be true.
I'm not encouraging couples toput on the rose colored glasses
and just pretend that yourpartner is not the stinker pants
I think that was the expressionyou used Because if we pretend
that they're not the stinkerpants, then we're flipping on
the autopilot and if we're nottoo careful we're going to crash
(26:20):
without somehow kind of dealingwith the fact that there's some
important fact that we don't,there's some important things
that we don't like that ourpartner's doing.
But if we lose track of theother side, we'll lose track of
why we even want to be in thisrelationship.
So that's, it's the gratitudethat kind of keeps us kind of
recognizing that ourrelationship is worth saving and
worth working on.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
If we are experiencing problems and the
autopilot not bringing up theimportant things.
Is that your concern, Ryan, asa researcher and teacher?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
So you know, I think, what?
There's a lot of reallyinteresting research showing
that when we're happy inrelationships we sort of give
our partners extra credit.
You know, we sort of downplayany negatives.
Or if they're late it was, oh,it's because of traffic was bad
or not, that they were somehowirresponsible or whatever else.
(27:11):
We make all these really nicekind of accusations or kind of
attributions.
So for the most part that'sgood to kind of smooth out the
bumps in the road.
But when there's somethingthat's more than a bump in the
road or we start heading downthe wrong road, if we wait too
long to figure that out, itbecomes much harder to kind of
(27:34):
turn back around and get back onthe right road.
So the trick, I think, is kindof recognizing when something is
just going to kind of blow overversus when something actually
needs some kind of recognizingwhen something is just going to
kind of blow over versus whensomething actually needs some
kind of focused attention.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Wow, and the wise person knows the difference,
sounds like right, right.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
That is the challenge sometimes.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That's where that coach could come in.
I really don't feel likemarriage therapy is necessary
for every couple, so that's whyI think something like this is
so exciting with ourrelationship.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Well, okay, in addition to these helpful
resources we've discussed today,you've written books and so
much more Can you share with ourlisteners, where they can go to
find out more about you, ryan,and the resources that you offer
.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
So if you are interested in a book, we do have
a book for couples which iscalled Reconcilable Differences,
as opposed to IrreconcilableDifferences.
So that's ReconcilableDifferences.
That's available on Amazon orwherever else you would buy
books.
Our website isourrelationshipcom, so O-U-R
(29:02):
relationshipcom all one word.
You can also find the OurRelationship program in both of
the app stores if you search OurRelationship, and we do have a
couple of free versions of theprogram.
We're fortunate to have supportfrom the federal government.
So if you go to freedotourrelationshipcom, that's a
(29:26):
version of the program that wecan provide to essentially
working class couples.
It's based on household income,and if you're a member of the
US military, you can go tomilitaryourrelationshipcom and
get a free version of theprogram.
And then, of course, you canfind these links available on
the Utah website and get a freeversion of the program.
And then, of course, it's alsoyou can find these links
(29:46):
available on the Utah website.
If you all want to provide thatlink here, I'll give you a
chance to plug your own site,yeah yeah, yeah,
thestrongermarriageorg, where wehave Brian's link to his
program.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
But, brian, we're going to put all those links as
well for our listeners in theshow notes.
If you miss those listeners,please go there.
Great, for our listeners in theshow notes.
If you miss those listeners,please go there.
Um, great resources and, like Isaid, military uh, there are
some he's doing with this withthe grant.
Qualify in that income range.
You can take it for for free,right?
Yep, fantastic, wow, uh, brian,well, there's a couple
(30:19):
questions we like to ask all ofour guests before we let you go.
Okay, the first one is this inyour mind, with all the research
and things that you've done,what do you feel like is the key
to a stronger marriageconnection?
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Oh, it's hard I mean it's hard to boil it down into
one thing, but but I guess Iguess actually the the advice I
would give is actually not evenmy advice is I'm going to steal
it from somebody else but it'sthis idea of turning towards
rather than turning away.
So if you've had a stressful dayor there's something that's
(30:53):
bothering, you try to make ityour partner that you open up
and talk to about that, becausewhat that's going to do is it's
really going to strengthen thatconnection.
It's disclosing to our partners.
Opening up and sharing with ourpartners and giving our
partners a chance to support usin that moment is one of the
(31:14):
main ways that we can feelcloser to our partners.
And so when we turn away fromour partners, when we have those
conversations with our friendsor with our families, it sort of
robs us of an opportunity to dothat with our partners.
So that doesn't mean ourpartners have to be there 24-7
for us.
It's great to have other peoplewe can have those conversations
(31:34):
with, but I would certainlyencourage folks to have those
conversations with the partnersas well.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Absolutely love it.
Yeah, yeah, big fan of Gottman.
Yeah, and one of the reasons wename our podcast Stronger
Marriage Connection is theimportance of that connection.
So turning forward to partnersfor that connection, love it.
Now, as we wrap up, is there atake-home message?
We call it a takeaway of theday, a message you hope our
(32:03):
listeners will remember from ourdiscussion today Brian.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
I think maybe I'll pick up on what Liz called out,
which is this idea of autopilotand knowing when to stay on
autopilot and when not to stayon autopilot.
I'm certainly not going torecommend, you know, that old
advice of never go to bed angrywith each other and things like
that.
You know, sometimes things fadeover time.
(32:29):
It's it's okay to be upset andfrustrated with our partners.
Um, I think if I start gettinga little worried about couples
who never have those experiences, so autopilot, you know there's
going to be turbulence, that'sokay.
That doesn't mean that we'reoff track.
But if you start feeling likeyou can't talk to your partner,
(32:50):
that you're a stranger, oryou're arguing all the time and
you're just really wondering ifthis is the right person for you
, maybe you made a mistake.
You're starting to getpessimistic, that something
needs to change.
Please reach out to somebody atthat point that can be a
spiritual leader, that can be amental health professional, that
can be, you know, going to theOur Relationship program.
But it's much easier to kind ofaddress those things you know
(33:13):
those problems when they'restarting than it is after
they've been there for severalyears, and that's how long most
people couples wait to seekcouples.
Therapy is years after seriousproblems develop.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, yeah, well said Liz, what about you?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I'm kind of smelling at that one piece of Brian and
Dave, because I often hear manycouples I think I married the
wrong person.
I think it's a really commonfear when we think that we're
hitting the same wall again andagain and again.
Maybe we were just not meant tobe, and you know.
So I have such hope and with aprogram like yours, brian, with
(33:53):
you and your colleagues, that wecan all understand that this is
really common feelings.
And again and again you havejust expressed how natural some
of this is right when we're meremortals and we hit our head
against the wall.
I also really love this idea ofinvisible support.
I've never thought about itthat way.
It's a beautiful term.
Just to think about how can Itake a little bit of stress out
(34:13):
of my husband's day, forinstance?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
And.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
I thought that was just lovely.
So, dave, what about you?
What's a rich nugget you hopewe'll all remember from our time
today with Dr Brian Doss.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yeah, brian, thanks for all that you have shared.
I love the idea of the deep ofthe differences, the emotions,
the external stress that'shappening, these patterns, these
destructive patterns ofcommunication that we get into,
patterns of communication thatwe get into.
And it just hit me that we canhelp couples to, instead of
(34:53):
reacting to their partner'sbehavior, responding to their
emotions or to their deep, unmetneeds, those things that are
hidden and that they can't see.
And I love that ourrelationship helps couples
expose that, open things up alittle bit more.
So, big, big fan, big fan ofall that you are doing in the
program that you're runningthere.
So, thank you, brian, thanksagain taking time to come on and
(35:14):
share with us the great workthat you do in the programs.
Yeah, the decades of researchthat you have been sharing,
appreciate all your wisdom today.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
No, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
It was great being a part of this and I like how you
said that, Dave responding totheir deep unmet needs.
Right, yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, we all have those.
We just don't recognize whatthey are sometimes and it takes
sometimes an outsider and I lovethat actually, that Liz pointed
that out.
The coaching option for somecouples yeah, what a gem to have
someone.
Okay, I'm going through this,but we could use a live person
now at this point to kind ofwalk us through that.
So you've thought of everythingthere with that program.
(35:54):
Well done.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Thank you.
Yeah, a lot of couples findthat coach helpful, but then
some couples want to do it ontheir own, so we give couples
that flexibility.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, all right , my friend.
Thanks.
That's all for now, my friends.
We will see you next time onanother episode of the Stronger
Marriage Connection podcast.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
And remember it's the small and simple things that
create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take good care now.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(36:41):
Stronger Marriage Life andFacebook at Stronger Marriage
Life and Facebook at StrongerMarriage, so be sure to share
with us which topics you lovedor which guests we should have
on the show next.
If you want even more resourcesto improve your marriage or
relationship connection, visitStrongerMarriageorg, where
you'll find free workshops,e-courses, in-depth webinars,
relationship surveys and more.
(37:02):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(37:26):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
When it comes to online resources to strengthen
your relationship, there arecountless options, but on
today's episode, dr Liz and Iwelcome Dr Brian Doss to the
show and he shares ascience-backed resource called
Our Relationship that is one ofthe most helpful out there.
Out there, we dive into theDEEP or D-E-E-P framework,
(00:28):
breaking down differences,discussing emotions, stress and
unhealthy patterns ofcommunications.
It's been around for more than15 years and it's helped tens of
thousands of couples.
Dr Brian D Doss is a professorof psychology at the University
of Miami and co-founder andpresident of Our Relationship.
His research program focuses onincreasing the reach and
president of Our Relationship.
His research program focuses onincreasing the reach and
effectiveness of coupleinterventions, with a special
(00:50):
focus on technology.
His digital Our Relationshipprogram has been continuously
funded by the NationalInstitutes of Health, the
Administration for Children andFamilies for more than 15 years.
Dr Doss has over 125professional publications and is
co-author of the Therapist'sManual for Integrative
Behavioral Couple Therapy, oneof the three couple therapies
(01:13):
with the highest level ofempirical support.
Dr Doss's research has beenfeatured on the Today Show, cnn,
msnbc, the New York Times, theMiami Herald and elsewhere.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey, friends, welcome toanother episode of Stronger
(01:35):
Marriage Connection podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity alongside Dr Liz Hale
, our licensed clinicalpsychologist and therapist.
Our aim really is to bring youthe very best we have in
relationship resources andresearch, along with some tips
and tools to help you create themarriage of your dreams.
All right, liz, we know todaythere are more relationship
(01:58):
resources today than ever beforeand, even more specifically,
I'd say, more online resourcesto help couples strengthen their
marriage connection.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
You know, it's a really good time to be married,
right, I think, or to thinkabout getting married.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Oh, absolutely.
There's so many helps out there, but the question is, how do
you know which ones to trust andwhich ones are research-based
and the ones that are reallyworth it?
We're here to discuss severalonline relationship tools and
resources.
As a friend and colleague fromall the way down in Southern
Florida, the University of Miami, dr Brian Doss Welcome to the
(02:35):
show, my friend.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's great to be with you.
We're looking forward tohearing all you have to say
about so many resources and thegreat work you've been doing
down there in Miami and, Brian,you have been you've been at
this for 20 plus years now,researching, you're counseling,
you're creating resources,you're publishing tools all to
(02:59):
help couples.
Tell us a little bit about theevolution, maybe first, of these
online resources available Justthe last decade.
It feels like things havereally exploded.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah, they have definitely.
Well, you know, I got my startas a kind of more traditional
couples therapist.
That's kind of what my trainingwas originally.
We developed the OurRelationship program with our
digital application all the wayback in 2009 as a way to
essentially kind of increase thereach of those services.
But you're right, it's reallybeen in the last 10 years, and
(03:32):
especially kind of COVID, thatreally has accelerated the
development of the onlineprograms.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I think that's so exciting.
In addition to these onlineresources, brian, there are all
kinds of new, fun, innovativeways for couples to stay
connected and improve theirrelationship.
What are some of your favorites?
Something you really like tomake sure couples know about the
resources and the tools, myfriend, what are they?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, Well, because I think you bring up a good point
in that what you really want todo is find the right thing for
your relationship, because Ithink there's some kind of
lighter touch things that youcan do that are kind of more
playful.
There's card decks and thingslike that.
There are also apps that youcan kind of ask each other
(04:17):
questions or have the app askyou questions and if you both
respond you can see each other'sresponses and things like that,
you know.
So those are kind of moreplayful where something like the
Our Relationship program youknow that's really we think
about that as a digital tool tosolve relationship problems.
So you know that's kind of lessplayful and more planful, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Are there different categories?
I don't know about OurRelationship, but I will now.
Are there different categories,right?
How does this work?
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Different categories of the app.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
You said our relationship.
Is that what it's called?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Yeah, it is, and I'm happy to kind of dive into that.
That's what we've been workingon for all the way since 2009.
So, over however long that is,I'm losing count.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, 15, 16 years.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah, so it's been a long time.
We developed that program uhthrough in variety of federal
funding and tested it with avariety of different um, you
know, populations and thingslike that, so happy to kind of
talk about that yeah, in fact,liz, that's one that we have on
our um the stronger marriagewebsite, the utah, the marriage
(05:24):
commission.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
That's one of the few programs that we actually
highlight and say, hey, this isa trusted resource.
So right there, yeah, for ourlisteners.
If you want a quick version,you go to StrongerMarriageorg,
our website.
Click on that.
So tell us, let's dive into ourrelationship.
Tell us a little about theprogram and the primary aims.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, sure.
So, as I mentioned, we thinkabout it as a digital tool to
solve relationship problems.
So we know that there areeffective couple therapies out
there.
The challenge is most couplesdon't seek couples therapy, or
those that do, they wait way toolong to seek it.
So what we've done is we'veadapted our effective couple
(06:07):
therapy program to the OurRelationship program and it
takes couples through athree-step process where they
identify a relationship problemthat they're struggling with and
we help them better understandthat relationship problem and
then eventually provide tailoredtips to solve those problems.
And we have, you know, withinour relationship we have
(06:29):
programs tailored for a varietyof couple types as well as a
variety of relationship issues,because we think it's really to
you know, meet couples wherethey are.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Is this, would you say, is there?
You know, a primary audience Isthis what you say.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Is there a primary audience?
Is this for those who are justcurious?
They're doing pretty good Forthose who are see everybody from
couples who are engaged andabout to be married they're
doing it as part of an effort tosome premarital education or
those types of things to coupleswho have recently discovered
their partner is cheating onthem and they're trying to
figure out whether they can savetheir relationship.
(07:18):
So we really do see a widevariety of couples.
I think the ideal person to doour relationship is somebody who
there's been something in theirrelationship that they have
struggled for a while to try toimprove or fix, and that could
be something that they'relacking, that they miss or they
(07:42):
see in other relationships, orit could be, you know, the
presence of a positive they'rearguing a lot, or some or sorry,
presence of a negative they'rearguing a lot, or something like
that.
So you know that's the personwho I think we want, somebody
who wants to solve that issueand, you know, are willing to
either do that on their own orwith their partner and kind of
(08:03):
actively make a commitment.
Either do that on their own orwith their partner and kind of
actively to do that.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Just a little bit more about it, brian.
How?
How's it different?
I guess?
I mean you you hit Google andyou you know relationship
resources.
You're going to have a millionthings pop up.
Tell us a little bit more aboutyours and how unique it is.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Right?
Well, I I think one thing that'sthat's really important about
what we do is is we have studiedand test everything that's
publicly available and so we cansay with confidence you know,
after working with thousands andthousands of couples, that we
know this program is effectiveand we know that it's effective
(08:47):
in improving a lot of differenttypes of relationship issues.
So we help couples with allsorts of different problems.
We know that we can improveemotional intimacy, sexual
intimacy, as well as decreaseconflict and aggression and
those types of things.
So that's exciting.
So we know that it affects alot of areas of the relationship
.
The other thing that we'rereally excited about is that
we've shown that, because therelationship is improving,
(09:09):
people's mental health improves,their physical health improves,
they're sleeping a lot betterand things like that, and even
their families are doing better,they're able to parent better,
they're reporting fewer problemswith their children either
getting into trouble at schoolor fewer depression and anxiety.
So, at the end of the day, youknow, to sum all that up, we
(09:32):
know that it works, and I thinkthere's very few programs out
there that can say the samething.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, I love hearing and I read a bunch of the
research, the studies on thisthat are backing that up.
I love that it is.
It's science-based,research-based.
You've done quite a bit of workon this, remind me.
I can't remember if you talkedabout it.
As far as the length, I don'tknow average length, I guess
couples expect okay, what isthis and how long is this going
(10:00):
to last?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, it's about depending on if you're working
on one or two relationshipissues at the same time.
It's somewhere in theneighborhood of about eight to
10 hours of content, which whichsounds may sound a little bit
kind of intensive or scary.
But you know, we do take youthrough kind of step by step and
if couples elect to do so, theycan also work with a coach as
(10:25):
they move through the program.
So we've tested the programboth with and without a coach.
We know that it works for both,but it's always nice to have
that coach that acts as apersonal trainer to kind of keep
you on track and tweak thetechniques and other types of
things that you're learningthroughout the program, other
types of things that you'relearning throughout the program.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Love that option.
Love that option.
And Liz is familiar.
I mean, I love Liz's approach.
Actually I'm not a therapist,liz is, but she's about intense
sessions, because sometimes 50minutes is really hard, and so
wouldn't you agree, liz?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Oh my gosh.
You know an hour session is agreat way to feel like a bad
therapist.
It just is.
There is no substitute for time.
So, as a couple, we're going tospend eight to 10 hours talking
about this topic, right?
Whatever the topic might be, wemay as well spend eight to 10
hours in a program like ourrelationship and really get some
good help, right?
So we're going to spend thattime anyway.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Yeah, and you know those in-person sessions are
great.
You know I'm a big fan ofcouples therapy but we know that
for a lot of our folks theycan't find time to do it with
their partner or the time thatthey have is on the weekends or
in the evening, middle of thenight or on the way home from
work or whatever it is.
And so the flexibility of theprogram that you can kind of do
(11:41):
it on your phone, do it whenyou're separated from your
partner, you don't have tophysically be together, and then
the program brings you and yourpartner together for those
moments where you are going toshare kind of what you're
working on.
So it's a lot more flexiblethat way than kind of
traditional couples therapy.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
So exciting.
I love this whole idea.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
and we're back, let's dive right in you and your
colleagues my friend have alsocreated a framework to help
couples better understand theirchallenges, and we all have them
right.
And you call it deep d-e-e-p.
Can you help us walk throughthat acronym and how it's
helpful for all of us as couples?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Yeah.
So you know I mentioned kind ofthe Our Relationship Program is
a three-step process kind ofidentifying a problem,
understanding and theneventually solving it.
So the deep understanding comesin in that middle section, the
understand section.
And you know we feel likethat's important.
Because you important becauseif you're in an unhappy
(12:57):
relationship and if I were toask you what's wrong in your
relationship, you're probablygoing to point across the room
and say there, that's what'swrong, meaning your partner, and
that's natural, because you'vestruggled for a while to kind of
work on this issue, tounderstand this issue, and
you've been trying to changeyour partner or trying to do
(13:18):
things differently and yourpartner is not cooperating for
some reason.
So we tend to kind ofexperience our unhappy
relationships as a very simpleexplanation of if my partner
would just change things wouldbe okay.
But oftentimes it's morecomplicated.
So the deep framework or thatdeep understanding is a way to
(13:40):
try to give couples kind of amore accurate, kind of less
blaming understanding of theirrelationship problems.
So it is an acronym.
So D stands for differences.
So there we're talking aboutnatural differences like
personality or maybe emotionalexpressiveness.
Some people are easily able tolabel and identify their issues
(14:04):
and kind of talk about emotions.
Some people aren't, otherpeople are going to be more
extroverted, other people aren't.
So you want to think aboutwhere are the two of you
naturally different and to whatextent is that driving your
relationship problems?
Does that make sense so far?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
That we're different, right?
No kidding, yep, uh-huh.
Okay, let's go to the E, thefirst E of deep, please.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, so the first E that we like to talk about is
emotions and, not surprisingly,emotions play a very important
role in our romanticrelationships.
You know, we're in arelationship because of the
positive emotions that it bringsright and we will often think
about, kind of you know lots ofpositive emotions or you know
(14:52):
lots of negative emotions.
But there's another distinctionthat we really try to encourage
couples to make, which is kindof a surface emotion versus a
hidden emotion.
So a surface emotion areessentially the emotions that
you express to your partner andthat you see from your partner
and when you're in an unhappyrelationship, and that you see
(15:14):
from your partner and whenyou're in an unhappy
relationship.
A lot of the surface emotionsthat we see are the anger and
the frustration, or sometimesit's the lack of emotion, it's
the withdrawal or thedefensiveness and what's
happening there is.
Those are sort of our reactions.
Those are what are calledsecondary emotions.
The hidden emotions are theprimary emotions.
(15:34):
So when something happens oryour partner does something, you
experience this hidden emotion,this primary emotion.
It might be hurt, it might be,you know, feeling lonely, it
might be feeling disconnected,jealous, you know.
Whatever it is, we're feelingkind of these more vulnerable
emotions but instead of kind ofvoicing those, we act on them
(15:59):
and you know, we kind of showour surface emotions and so the
challenge is for couples who aretrying to work through kind of
relationship issues is firstidentifying what are those
hidden emotions that they'reexperiencing and then starting
to express those hidden emotionswhich we're going to pick up
kind of towards the end of thedeep understanding.
(16:20):
But you can imagine if, insteadof reacting to your partner
with I can't believe you didthat to me, that was so
disrespectful you lead with thatreally hurt me when you did
that.
You know it's a scarier thingto say, but it also invites a
much more kind of open andhonest and probably hopefully
(16:43):
eventually, you know productiveconversation.
But you need to be able torecognize those.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Oh, I love it, you're going to get a much better
response from a partner.
Right, Right.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Not having to defend themselves.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Okay, so I love this.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Going to get a much better response from a partner
right Right Not having to defendthemselves.
Okay.
So I love this so differenceand emotions, secondary versus
primary, and then the second Eplease in deep.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, the second E is external stress Our creating
problems in our relationship.
Our car breaks down and nowwe've got to figure out how to
deal with it.
That's a problem that, as acouple, we have to navigate.
Or sometimes we've just had areally bad day at work and we
come home through the door andour partner's talking to us
(17:24):
about something else and theonly thing we can think about
doing is just how?
We just want to sit down andchange our clothes and all of
those types of things, becausewe've had such a bad day at work
and even though our partner'stalking to us about something
completely different, we justcan't hear it.
So stress has lots of differentimpacts on our relationships
(17:45):
that make them more difficult tonavigate.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
And then the P of deep, please.
We got difference, we gotemotions, external stress and P
stands for.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
P is patterns of communication.
So patterns, you know, we talka lot about.
You know, and I'm sure lots ofyour listeners are kind of I've
heard about kind of thespeaker-listener technique and
the problem-solving structuresand things like that and those
are all really important kind ofaspects of communication and
kind of can help us expressthose deep emotions or those
(18:18):
hidden emotions, for example.
But the thing we focus on a lotwith the patterns of
communication is the cycles thatwe get into over time.
And so let's imagine let'sstart to construct a deep
understanding for a couple.
And so, you know, let's imaginelet's start to construct a deep
understanding for a couple.
So let's imagine there's acouple who is, you know, maybe
(18:40):
they have natural difference inhow much closeness they want.
You know one person likes tospend a lot of time together,
the other person doesn't, forexample.
And you know, maybe somebodykind of gets a job where they're
traveling, so that's theexternal stress.
So you take this naturaldifference and then you pull the
person, you know one personaway even longer.
So we've got external stressand so they feel these emotions
(19:03):
of.
You know, I'm kind of lonely,I'm feeling distant from you,
but that's not what they express.
What they express is the youknow, the anger that they're
taking another trip, right?
So you've got these threepieces coming into play.
Now we have to look at thepattern.
Well, what happens when thatperson expresses that anger?
(19:25):
Well, probably what's going tohappen is the other person's
going to withdraw, or they'regoing to defend themselves.
You know, I need to take thistrip.
I have to for my job.
I don't want to, it's just partof what I have to do.
So they defend themselves.
Well now, maybe the next time atrip comes up, maybe they know
(19:46):
this fight's going to happen,right?
So they don't even ask theirpartner whether they can take
this trip.
They just agree to this trip.
And now the other partner findsout wait, you agreed to take
this trip without even tellingme.
And so what happens is theystart to polarize over time.
And so what starts is thisnatural difference and these
kind of emotional, naturalexperiences and emotions they're
(20:09):
having.
They start to get more and moreextreme over time.
And so, even though they bothwanted to be in this
relationship, they start to getmore and more extreme over time.
And so, even though they bothwanted to be in this
relationship, they both wantedto spend time with each other.
They both enjoy spending timewith each other.
Now all they can do is fightabout how much time they're
spending together and how theother person is being so
unreasonable, and so that's whatwe start to see with these
(20:31):
patterns of communication isthat how they have interacted
over time has really driven themto a place where they kind of
almost don't even recognizetheir relationship anymore.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Wow, brian, and I'm just processing all of this.
Yeah, this is fascinating forme as one who hasn't done
therapy.
But it feels like thesepatterns of you get someone that
just reacts to someone'sbehavior with a behavior instead
of going deeper andunderstanding the person is hurt
or lonely or isolated, and thenit makes them angry or anxious
(21:07):
or fearful, yeah, and then.
But it comes out as a hey, youare the blame, and so we're on
the outside here with behaviors,instead of saying, hey, let me
truly understand, yeah, thefeelings, is that right?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Yeah, that's right and I think it's totally normal,
you know, if that makes sense.
I mean, I think we operate alot of our time on autopilot and
you know, I think kind ofthat's how we deal with
situations in our life.
We react rather than and wedon't actually really examine
why we're reacting that way andfor most of the time being on
(21:45):
autopilot in our relationshipand driving.
There's lots of advantages tothat.
There's just so many thingshappening that we can't examine
everything.
But if you and your partner arereally kind of struggling with
something, you really kind ofneed to flip that autopilot off
and take the time to say, likewait a second, like why am I you
know, this is somebody I lovewhy am I reacting in this way
(22:07):
and why is my partner reactingin this way, and start to kind
of really think about that andthink about how you could handle
that differently.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's very well named.
It's a very well named acronymDEEP.
It helps us go a little deeper.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
A little deeper.
Yeah, I love that.
So that's really what ourrelationship is about taking and
helping couples with theirdifferences, breaking them down,
kind of pulling the curtainsaside and saying, hey look,
you're in this destructivepattern, let's go a little bit
deeper and find out.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, and the great thing about apps is we can do
assessments and we can givepeople feedback on where their
differences are.
For example, we'll takeinformation from the partner or
take information from the user,show them where they're
different and give them tips andsuggestions based on kind of
that content, because we knowcouples differ in lots of
(23:01):
different ways.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, Well, let me take that a step further, brian,
with some of that data.
I mean you've been doing thisagain like 20 years.
You collected all kinds ofthings.
You're discovering things.
Do you have some our listeners?
They love practical tips theycan use to strengthen their
marriage.
What have you learned over theyears that might be helpful for
couples who are looking forsimple things they can help
their relationship with rightnow, right now, today, to
(23:23):
overcome the challenges andbecome closer?
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah, because you're right.
I mean, a lot of times it isthe day-to-day things that we
kind of think about or don'tthink about.
So you know, the smaller typesof things I think are the
invisible support.
So you know, lots of times whenwe think about supporting our
partners it's there with atissue in hand.
(23:48):
You know they're crying on ourshoulder and sometimes that's
what our partner needs.
They're crying on our shoulderand sometimes that's what our
partner needs.
But a lot of times what ourpartner needs is for us to do
the dishes before they evenrealize that the dishes need to
be done.
And so this idea of invisiblesupport, where we're taking
stress out of our partner'slives so that if they've had a
(24:10):
tough day or they're strugglingwith something, we remove some
of those barriers, we removesome of those other stressors so
that they have the time to dealwith whatever it is that they
need to do.
So that's this idea ofinvisible support.
One other kind of thing justkind of showing how important it
(24:35):
is to recognize that we'regrateful for our partner.
And that can be something thatyou know you're doing in sort of
prayer, kind of being thankfulfor praying for your partner, or
it could be other ways thatyou're kind of recognizing that
you're grateful for your partner.
And then, of course, we want totell our partners that we're
grateful for them.
So thank you very much, and itdoesn't have to be this earth
(24:58):
shattering kind of somethingyou'd grab from a Valentine's
Day card.
It can thank you for cleaningup the kitchen.
I really appreciate that.
It's just the simple stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I love that and it's hard to feel some of that when
we're feeling resentful, right,it's hard to notice things or to
give compliments or to man,maybe if I serve them or did
this because we're so caught up,you know, or I guess we're
turned inside with all thoseother things and our emotions
are stressed.
I love the idea of breakingthis down and get back to some
of these, these basics ofturning outward with gratitude
(25:36):
or, yeah, serving and loving andlifting.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Ah, helpful, thank you and I do find whatever we
focus on grows right or I'llfind the evidence, for I think
he's a stinker pants.
I'm going to find the evidenceof my husband being a stinker
pants If I find, if I focus onwow, he is just such a good
partner, just always, alwaysthere to meet my needs.
I will see things.
I.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Yeah, and both things can be true.
I'm not encouraging couples toput on the rose colored glasses
and just pretend that yourpartner is not the stinker pants
I think that was the expressionyou used Because if we pretend
that they're not the stinkerpants, then we're flipping on
the autopilot and if we're nottoo careful we're going to crash
(26:20):
without somehow kind of dealingwith the fact that there's some
important fact that we don't,there's some important things
that we don't like that ourpartner's doing.
But if we lose track of theother side, we'll lose track of
why we even want to be in thisrelationship.
So that's, it's the gratitudethat kind of keeps us kind of
recognizing that ourrelationship is worth saving and
worth working on.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
If we are experiencing problems and the
autopilot not bringing up theimportant things.
Is that your concern, Ryan, asa researcher and teacher?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
So you know, I think, what?
There's a lot of reallyinteresting research showing
that when we're happy inrelationships we sort of give
our partners extra credit.
You know, we sort of downplayany negatives.
Or if they're late it was, oh,it's because of traffic was bad
or not, that they were somehowirresponsible or whatever else.
(27:11):
We make all these really nicekind of accusations or kind of
attributions.
So for the most part that'sgood to kind of smooth out the
bumps in the road.
But when there's somethingthat's more than a bump in the
road or we start heading downthe wrong road, if we wait too
long to figure that out, itbecomes much harder to kind of
(27:34):
turn back around and get back onthe right road.
So the trick, I think, is kindof recognizing when something is
just going to kind of blow overversus when something actually
needs some kind of recognizingwhen something is just going to
kind of blow over versus whensomething actually needs some
kind of focused attention.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Wow, and the wise person knows the difference,
sounds like right, right.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
That is the challenge sometimes.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That's where that coach could come in.
I really don't feel likemarriage therapy is necessary
for every couple, so that's whyI think something like this is
so exciting with ourrelationship.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Well, okay, in addition to these helpful
resources we've discussed today,you've written books and so
much more Can you share with ourlisteners, where they can go to
find out more about you, ryan,and the resources that you offer
.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
So if you are interested in a book, we do have
a book for couples which iscalled Reconcilable Differences,
as opposed to IrreconcilableDifferences.
So that's ReconcilableDifferences.
That's available on Amazon orwherever else you would buy
books.
Our website isourrelationshipcom, so O-U-R
(29:02):
relationshipcom all one word.
You can also find the OurRelationship program in both of
the app stores if you search OurRelationship, and we do have a
couple of free versions of theprogram.
We're fortunate to have supportfrom the federal government.
So if you go to freedotourrelationshipcom, that's a
(29:26):
version of the program that wecan provide to essentially
working class couples.
It's based on household income,and if you're a member of the
US military, you can go tomilitaryourrelationshipcom and
get a free version of theprogram.
And then, of course, you canfind these links available on
the Utah website and get a freeversion of the program.
And then, of course, it's alsoyou can find these links
(29:46):
available on the Utah website.
If you all want to provide thatlink here, I'll give you a
chance to plug your own site,yeah yeah, yeah,
thestrongermarriageorg, where wehave Brian's link to his
program.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
But, brian, we're going to put all those links as
well for our listeners in theshow notes.
If you miss those listeners,please go there.
Great, for our listeners in theshow notes.
If you miss those listeners,please go there.
Um, great resources and, like Isaid, military uh, there are
some he's doing with this withthe grant.
Qualify in that income range.
You can take it for for free,right?
Yep, fantastic, wow, uh, brian,well, there's a couple
(30:19):
questions we like to ask all ofour guests before we let you go.
Okay, the first one is this inyour mind, with all the research
and things that you've done,what do you feel like is the key
to a stronger marriageconnection?
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Oh, it's hard I mean it's hard to boil it down into
one thing, but but I guess Iguess actually the the advice I
would give is actually not evenmy advice is I'm going to steal
it from somebody else but it'sthis idea of turning towards
rather than turning away.
So if you've had a stressful dayor there's something that's
(30:53):
bothering, you try to make ityour partner that you open up
and talk to about that, becausewhat that's going to do is it's
really going to strengthen thatconnection.
It's disclosing to our partners.
Opening up and sharing with ourpartners and giving our
partners a chance to support usin that moment is one of the
(31:14):
main ways that we can feelcloser to our partners.
And so when we turn away fromour partners, when we have those
conversations with our friendsor with our families, it sort of
robs us of an opportunity to dothat with our partners.
So that doesn't mean ourpartners have to be there 24-7
for us.
It's great to have other peoplewe can have those conversations
(31:34):
with, but I would certainlyencourage folks to have those
conversations with the partnersas well.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Absolutely love it.
Yeah, yeah, big fan of Gottman.
Yeah, and one of the reasons wename our podcast Stronger
Marriage Connection is theimportance of that connection.
So turning forward to partnersfor that connection, love it.
Now, as we wrap up, is there atake-home message?
We call it a takeaway of theday, a message you hope our
(32:03):
listeners will remember from ourdiscussion today Brian.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
I think maybe I'll pick up on what Liz called out,
which is this idea of autopilotand knowing when to stay on
autopilot and when not to stayon autopilot.
I'm certainly not going torecommend, you know, that old
advice of never go to bed angrywith each other and things like
that.
You know, sometimes things fadeover time.
(32:29):
It's it's okay to be upset andfrustrated with our partners.
Um, I think if I start gettinga little worried about couples
who never have those experiences, so autopilot, you know there's
going to be turbulence, that'sokay.
That doesn't mean that we'reoff track.
But if you start feeling likeyou can't talk to your partner,
(32:50):
that you're a stranger, oryou're arguing all the time and
you're just really wondering ifthis is the right person for you
, maybe you made a mistake.
You're starting to getpessimistic, that something
needs to change.
Please reach out to somebody atthat point that can be a
spiritual leader, that can be amental health professional, that
can be, you know, going to theOur Relationship program.
But it's much easier to kind ofaddress those things you know
(33:13):
those problems when they'restarting than it is after
they've been there for severalyears, and that's how long most
people couples wait to seekcouples.
Therapy is years after seriousproblems develop.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, yeah, well said Liz, what about you?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I'm kind of smelling at that one piece of Brian and
Dave, because I often hear manycouples I think I married the
wrong person.
I think it's a really commonfear when we think that we're
hitting the same wall again andagain and again.
Maybe we were just not meant tobe, and you know.
So I have such hope and with aprogram like yours, brian, with
(33:53):
you and your colleagues, that wecan all understand that this is
really common feelings.
And again and again you havejust expressed how natural some
of this is right when we're meremortals and we hit our head
against the wall.
I also really love this idea ofinvisible support.
I've never thought about itthat way.
It's a beautiful term.
Just to think about how can Itake a little bit of stress out
(34:13):
of my husband's day, forinstance?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
And.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
I thought that was just lovely.
So, dave, what about you?
What's a rich nugget you hopewe'll all remember from our time
today with Dr Brian Doss.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yeah, brian, thanks for all that you have shared.
I love the idea of the deep ofthe differences, the emotions,
the external stress that'shappening, these patterns, these
destructive patterns ofcommunication that we get into,
patterns of communication thatwe get into.
And it just hit me that we canhelp couples to, instead of
(34:53):
reacting to their partner'sbehavior, responding to their
emotions or to their deep, unmetneeds, those things that are
hidden and that they can't see.
And I love that ourrelationship helps couples
expose that, open things up alittle bit more.
So, big, big fan, big fan ofall that you are doing in the
program that you're runningthere.
So, thank you, brian, thanksagain taking time to come on and
(35:14):
share with us the great workthat you do in the programs.
Yeah, the decades of researchthat you have been sharing,
appreciate all your wisdom today.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
No, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
It was great being a part of this and I like how you
said that, Dave responding totheir deep unmet needs.
Right, yeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, we all have those.
We just don't recognize whatthey are sometimes and it takes
sometimes an outsider and I lovethat actually, that Liz pointed
that out.
The coaching option for somecouples yeah, what a gem to have
someone.
Okay, I'm going through this,but we could use a live person
now at this point to kind ofwalk us through that.
So you've thought of everythingthere with that program.
(35:54):
Well done.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Thank you.
Yeah, a lot of couples findthat coach helpful, but then
some couples want to do it ontheir own, so we give couples
that flexibility.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, all right , my friend.
Thanks.
That's all for now, my friends.
We will see you next time onanother episode of the Stronger
Marriage Connection podcast.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
And remember it's the small and simple things that
create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take good care now.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(36:41):
Stronger Marriage Life andFacebook at Stronger Marriage
Life and Facebook at StrongerMarriage, so be sure to share
with us which topics you lovedor which guests we should have
on the show next.
If you want even more resourcesto improve your marriage or
relationship connection, visitStrongerMarriageorg, where
you'll find free workshops,e-courses, in-depth webinars,
relationship surveys and more.
(37:02):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(37:26):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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