April 28, 2025 • 51 mins
Mary Kay Cocharo shares how Imago therapy helps transform relationship conflicts into opportunities for healing childhood wounds through a structured dialogue process that fosters safety, understanding, and deep connection.
• Imago theory suggests we're unconsciously attracted to partners who possess both positive and negative traits of our childhood caretakers
• Relationships typically move from a romantic stage (lasting about two years) to a power struggle phase where childhood wounds emerge
• 50% of married couples divorce during the power struggle phase after about six years of conflict
• The Intentional Dialogue process involves mirroring (reflecting what was said), validating (acknowledging the other's perspective makes sense), and empathizing
• Surface conflicts often mask deeper childhood wounds, as illustrated by a couple fighting about a dog that actually connected to grief over a mother's death
• Sitting 18 inches apart with eye contact calms the limbic brain and activates the cortex, creating a neurobiological state conducive to problem-solving
• People typically respond to conflict by either "hyper-arousing" (getting louder/more expressive) or "hypo-arousing" (withdrawing/shutting down)
• Three key elements for a stronger marriage connection: touch/physical affection, safe/respectful communication, and shared activities
• Focus on the dynamic in the space between you rather than blaming your partner
• Simple eye gazing for a few minutes can rebuild connection when words have become triggering
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
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http://www.drlizhale.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dave Schramm (00:04):
Most of us didn't grow up in a perfect family or
even have perfect childhoods.
Research shows that while wecan't change our past, it still
can have a profound impact onour lives and our relationships.
Today, dr Liz and I welcomeMary Kay Cuccero to the show.
She's trained in Imago therapy,which focuses on transforming
conflicts into opportunities forhealing and growth that often
(00:26):
stem from our childhood.
Mary Kay shares helpful tipsabout communication and
connection, including the18-inch gaze into each other's
eyes, and so much more.
Mary Kay Cacero has worked as acouples therapist for 35 years
in Los Angeles, california.
She helps couples through thelenses of a model relationship
(00:46):
therapy and encounter centeredcouples transformation, both
proven methods for improvingcommunication and intimacy in
relationships.
Her brand offers intensive allday or even two day sessions,
workshops and weekend retreatsfor couples, a service not
provided by many of hercompetitors.
This allows couples to fullyimmerse themselves in the
therapeutic process.
And weekend retreats forcouples, a service not provided
(01:07):
by many of her competitors.
This allows couples to fullyimmerse themselves in the
therapeutic process without thedistractions of daily life, in a
relaxing setting.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Liz Hale (01:20):
Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection.
I'm psychologist, dr Liz Hale,along with the beloved professor
, dr Dave Schramm.
Together, we have dedicated ourlife's work to bringing you the
best we have in valid maritalresearch, along with a few tips
and tools to help you create themarriage of your dreams.
Well, for 35 years, licensedmarriage and family therapist,
(01:42):
mary Kay Cacero has used herskills and training to help
couples of all ages and stagesfind better ways to reconnect
and rekindle, even in the mostdamaged relationships.
That's pretty inspiring, isn'tit?
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection, mary Kay.
Well, thank you so much.
It's a pleasure to be here.
It is an honor to have you.
You have specialized advancedtraining in a field that I have
(02:06):
been fascinated with for yearsbut I didn't do a very deep dive
into it and that is Imagotherapy.
I love this idea that the Imagoprocess strengthens your
relationship, all while healingchildhood wounds.
It's kind of a win and a winwin here building healthy, happy
families.
Please explain the Imagoprocess and do you have a
(02:28):
favorite tool that you use inyour intensive couples
counseling?
Mary Kay Cocharo (02:32):
Yes.
Well, first of all, thank youfor saying Imago.
I can't tell you all thevarious ways people pronounce
that.
Imago is from the Latin, itmeans image, and it is a theory
and a practice that was designedby Drs Harbel Hendricks and his
(02:53):
wife, helen Le Kelly Hunt, andI think over 30 years ago they
had a bestseller called Gettingthe Love you Want, and I think
it's a bestseller because itspeaks to people.
They read that book and theyfind themselves, they find their
relationship in that book.
They go, oh yeah, thisresonates.
(03:14):
And his theory is actually quitecomplex and I will not do it
justice in this small littleperiod of time that we have here
, but the idea is that we aredrawn to, attracted to and fall
in love with someone who feelsfamiliar.
You know that feeling.
(03:35):
You're going, let's say, nowall these couples go on online
dating sites and everythinglines up, checks all the boxes,
and they're very excited andthey go to have coffee and they
come back and you say, how didit go?
And they say, oh, there was nochemistry.
Well, what does that mean?
What is chemistry?
And Drs Hunt and Dr andHendricks believed that the
(04:19):
chemistry is this unconsciousdrive toward a person who has a
lot of the childhood traits.
That about the theory is thisidea of the stages of romantic
relationship, the idea beingthat at the beginning, in the
romantic stage, we get a lot ofhormones and a lot of chemicals
in our brain that last maybe upto two years, depending on what
(04:40):
you're doing, but maybe up totwo years, and in those first
phases of the relationship weare very romantically attracted.
It's called limerence in sometheories but we are only seeing
what's positive in the otherperson from our childhood, like
oh, you're sweet, like my momwas, or oh, you're really strong
(05:02):
and silent, like my dad was.
Yeah, his chemicals begin towear off after a period of time
and he believes that naturegives us that boost to get us to
commit and probably to havethat first baby.
You know, two years, if you'redoing it right, should be enough
time.
Of course, sociologically wedon't do that at all.
(05:22):
We live together for sevenyears.
We never have babies or we havethem before we get.
You know, we don't follow thebiological rules.
But when those chemicals wearoff we enter another stage of
relationship that Dr Hendrickscalls the power struggle.
In the power chemical becausethe blinders we are now also
(05:46):
seeing those negativecharacteristics of our early
childhood caretakers andsometimes I mean, for example,
let's say you did have that calm, quiet, stoic father and
initially you see that asstrength in your partner.
(06:06):
And after all the chemicalswear off, you might suddenly
start shaking them by theshoulders, saying why won't you
talk to me?
Hello, anybody in there?
You know it's funny how we tryto find the very thing we hired
for.
You know, the things in thebeginning can actually grow to
be the things that are reallymost painful and frustrating in
(06:27):
the relationship.
So when we've dipped down intothe power struggle phase, that's
when most couples begin to seekcounseling, couples counseling.
We know that about 50% of thepopulation who are married will
just divorce at that phase.
The average amount of time thata couple will stay in a power
struggle before they divorce isabout six years.
(06:48):
So that's pretty long suffering.
In my mind that's a shockingstatistic actually.
So they will exit therelationship, but because we are
wired for connection, they willgo on a dating site and soon
find another person to be inconnection with and they will
(07:11):
get that romantic stage again.
So it's like, oh, this is lotsbetter than that person I left.
Then those chemicals wear offand now here we are again in a
power struggle, brand new personwho doesn't look, on the
surface, anything like the lastperson, and yet the struggle is
the same.
Why is that?
Well, we bring ourselves toeverything right.
And if you think about thestruggle as the tip of an
(07:31):
iceberg, all that under thewater ice is our history, and
wherever we go, there we are, webring it with Right.
So that's part of the Imagotheory that I find fascinating,
and the idea is that we, asImago therapists, help couples
out of the power struggle intothe next phase, which is called
(07:52):
mature love, and that's sort oflike an earned love.
There's no chemicals, nohormones involved, except for
the ones that you can createthrough recommitting,
re-romanticizing, understandingthe stage that you are in, not
blaming your partner for thefact that you're in it, but
(08:13):
understanding it in a differentway and working together to heal
those icebergs so that you canhave a more mature kind of love.
That isn't ecstasy, it's morelike joy.
You know, what all couples thatI've seen in 35 years really
want is they want to be seen,they want to be heard and they
(08:35):
want to feel valued.
And if you give them astructure where the
communication is respectful,it's deep, it's intimate, and
you can look back in your pastand find out what it is you're
trying to heal in thisrelationship.
You grow and you heal and yourrelationship becomes like a
(08:57):
beautiful, safe space.
So those are the things I likeabout the theory.
And then the tool that Harvillecreated is called the
intentional dialogue, wherecouples structure their
communication in a way and thisis a lot of therapists use this,
even if they're not imagotherapists, but they've heard
(09:19):
about it and it works is whenyou have the couple talking to
each other and one person speaks, the other person listens and
the person who's listening ismirroring back what they're
hearing for accuracy, becausesometimes we respond to what we
think we heard, not actuallywhat we said, and so we're
checking that out.
We're really staying with thespeaker.
(09:41):
And then there's a three-stepprocess of mirroring back
validating, which isn't agreeing.
Validating is I hear you andyou make sense to me People get
stuck there because they well,if they don't agree, then it
doesn't make sense.
You have to work on that.
And then the third step isempathizing really putting
(10:03):
yourself in your partner's shoesto feel what it's like to be
sitting with that narrative,with that story and the pain
that has come from that story,and there's something very
healing about that because again, you're being seen, you're
being heard and you are beingvalued, if your partner can
really hang on your every wordand understand and have empathy
(10:25):
for where you are.
So in a really tight nutshell,that's a lot of what imago is
about, and there has been a lotof research now about how
effective imago is and it's um.
It started as the very firsttheory I studied.
I was probably certified inImago I have to think about how
(10:48):
old my son was, because trainingwas 30 years ago probably and
at the time it was one of thevery, very first relational
paradigms that you could study.
Of course, now there are manyothers, but Imago is still a
very tried and true theory andit's spread around the world.
(11:09):
I think it's practiced in 22countries and about 15 languages
.
You know it's everywhere, whichis great because I can go
almost anywhere in the world andfind colleagues I can stay with
.
That's funny.
So those are some of the highpoints of a marker yeah, that's,
that's really helpful.
Dave Schramm (11:28):
Thanks, mary k.
I think I'm curious what do youdo when you're working with a
couple and, let's say, neitherof them finds in their partner,
um, you know this familiaressence from from childhood.
Is it just a matter of time,you know, sometimes you have to
help them dig a little bitdeeper to find that reflective
image you know in their past, orthat healing or a trauma or
that experience.
(11:49):
Or are there some couples forwhom it's just, you know, the
concept doesn't, doesn't apply.
They had pretty good, uh,healthy, childhoods.
Mary Kay Cocharo (11:57):
What are they doing in my office, Dave?
Dave Schramm (11:59):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Mary Kay Cocharo (12:01):
That's the truth of it.
Of course you can have a goodenough childhood and you can
have very secure attachment, andhopefully we want all people to
have that.
But the truth is there are noperfect parents and there are no
perfect childhoods and almosteverybody has something.
And if you have anything, theplace that's going to come out
(12:22):
is in your most intimaterelationship, because whatever
wasn't perfect is going to gettriggered by your partner
because you have been attractedto this person, because there is
that imago.
So in the theory, you're notgoing to be together if there's
not that match.
But if you have a very, verydisrupted relationship, harville
(12:46):
has taught us all to look atthat as what an opportunity,
because the more dysfunctionalthe relationship, the more clean
there is, the better the amongthe matches, and so there's a
lot to work with there.
There's going to be deeperhealing and more growth in that
relationship if they'll committo do the work.
(13:07):
Now I did say 50% of couplesdon't come in to do the work.
They just go to divorce support.
But I figure if somebody hastaken the time to land in my
office, they want healing, theywant this to be better, they
don't want to give up on eachother, and so you don't have to
dig that deep, which doesn'tmean the work isn't difficult.
(13:29):
It is difficult.
I have to hold a lot of spacewhen I work with these couples
for all of the things that arepainful.
And sometimes the easiest wayfor a couple to deal with their
dysfunction is to go outside themarriage, and so then we get a
lot of affair recovery and a lotof sex addiction and a lot of
(13:49):
drinking, drugs shopping, youknow, over parenting.
You know somebody who's marriedto the children who barely
looks at their spouse.
So I guess in this theory youwould just not end up with a
couple that didn't havesomething that's holding them
together and something thatisn't the best it could be.
Dave Schramm (14:13):
Yeah.
Mary Kay Cocharo (14:14):
Does that make sense?
Dave Schramm (14:15):
Yeah, absolutely, and our listeners they love
hearing success stories orexamples of real life couples,
obviously without names.
But can you think of asituation you know and again,
you've worked with.
You know hundreds, thousandsperhaps of couples.
Is there any other couple thatcomes to mind that you can kind
of share?
You know their story a littlebit and how this was helpful.
Mary Kay Cocharo (14:37):
I don't know if this is the biggest or
deepest example because, as yousaid, I really have worked with
thousands of couples, but I willtell you something that I
remember, and it was a number ofyears ago.
I do retreats and I also doworkshops for couples, and this
was a one-day workshop and Ineeded a demonstration couple, a
couple that was willing to comeup because they were really in
(15:00):
a struggle about some issue andwork with me in a fishbowl with
everyone else watching, andthere were probably 20 to 25
couples in the audience, so 40,50 people.
So this very young couple,early 30s, raises their hand
very quickly and says pick me,pick me.
We have this issue and we areabout to break up over it.
(15:22):
They were premarital, but theyhad their wedding planned.
It was a month away and she areabout to break up over it.
They were premarital, but theyhad their wedding planned, it
was a month away and she wasready to exit the engagement
over this issue.
So they come up and I'mthinking, okay, well, this is
clearly important.
They're very upset about thisissue.
And when I just asked thembefore I began, you know what is
(15:44):
the issue they were fightingover whether or not to have a
dog and whether or not the dogwould be allowed to sleep in
their bed.
And I, you know, I've beendoing this a long time.
I know in my brain that thereare no small issues in a
(16:04):
relationship.
You know, anything can triggersomething big.
I also know that the issue isabout 10% of the problem and 90%
of the problem is what'sgetting triggered from their
past.
And I know this intellectually,but I got to tell you in that
moment I was doing an internaleye roll.
I was really like, oh my God, Igot 50 people watching here and
(16:27):
these two are bringing up thissilly thing.
This is never going to be a bigdemo.
Why did I choose that?
So we start, you know.
But I'm a professional, so Istart the dialogue.
I'm really working with them.
The guy goes first.
He talks about how dogs aredirty, how he hates dogs, he
doesn't want one, he certainlydoesn't want a big one and never
(16:49):
, ever, ever, ever go into hisbed and he would rather not get
married than have this dog.
So she listens, she mirrors,she validates, she empathizes.
It's all going swimmingly, buta little shallow, not the depth
I want to demonstrate.
And then she gets her turn andshe starts with why.
(17:12):
It's not why, but just thatit's very important for her to
have a big dog and sheabsolutely has to sleep with the
dog and she loves him, butthere will always be a dog in
the space between them in thebed and she really needed this
dog and she's crying.
So I know there's somethingimportant here that has nothing
(17:32):
to do with this dog.
So I have her say this onesimple thing this feeling I have
right now reminds me of,reminds me of.
He goes back into her childhoodmemories and starts telling the
story of when she was sevenyears old.
Her mother died of cancer andno one actually explained it to
(17:55):
her, just mother was there, andthen mother was gone.
She didn't get to go to thefuneral.
Nobody really sat down andtalked to her about the death of
her mother or how she wasfeeling about it.
But she had a large dog and thedog slept with her in the bed
every night.
She held the dog, she criedinto the dog's fur and this dog
(18:17):
saved her life.
Now I'm telling you there's nota dry eye in the 50 people
watching this thing.
It was so moving and you justcan physically see the shift in
the partner's face whichfrequently happens when it
clicks, that this is somethingdeep and important for your
(18:39):
partner.
Now, in all the fights they hadhad about this dog, nobody had
ever said and this reminds me ofbut that little line, that
little lead line, took her back.
She looked like a little girlwhen she was talking and he was
very moved.
So by the time he had empathizedwith all of this, their
(19:01):
follow-up conversation, theirfollow-up dialogue, was how
large should the dog be?
How often should the dog getgroomed so that the dog can
sleep in our bed?
How big of a bed should we buy?
Right?
So a total shift in thisdynamic where he now is trying
to assist her in getting herneeds met.
And they are problem problemsolving from the cortex.
(19:24):
They had been in their limbic,their reactive brain, on this
issue for so long, and youcannot solve a problem from your
limbic brain.
It's all emotion there.
They needed their thinkingbrain and this dialogue pushed
them into their limbic brain,out of their limbic brain into
their cortex, so that they couldbegin to be a creative couple,
(19:47):
and creative couples can solvetheir own problems.
But they needed the safety ofthat conversation to get there.
So I always remember thatbecause it's a good reminder
that there are no small problems.
Everything has a meaning tosomeone and until you understand
the meaning you can't moveforward.
Dave Schramm (20:09):
That's powerful, Mary Kay.
Mary Kay Cocharo (20:13):
It's a really interesting little story.
I mean, I really learnedsomething from them that day.
Liz Hale (20:21):
Or was at least reminded of what I know.
Right.
That's why I've always beeninterested in Imago therapy.
It's just fascinating to me.
Dave Schramm (20:29):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
Liz Hale (20:41):
and we're back, let's dive right in okay, let's move
on to another specialization youhave, please, mary kay, and
that is encountered centeredtechniques.
I'm not familiar with this atall.
Can you please describe whatthat is and offer us an example,
a a technique?
Mary Kay Cocharo (20:58):
Yeah this is an offshoot of Imago.
It's called Encounter-CenteredCouples Transformation, ecct,
and it comes from the work ofHedy Schleifer.
Hedy Schleifer was a masterImago trainer, really Harbel's
right arm for a very long time,really harples right arm for a
(21:23):
very long time.
When I first trained in Imago,all of my advanced training was
with Haiti and then she startedkind of adding things to the
theory, changing it a little bit, and it started to become its
own thing and so at one pointshe left Imago and started the
encounter-centered work and Iloved it so much.
(21:46):
It really resonated to me it isImago's theory but the
techniques are a little bitdifferent and I think she
started integrating a lot ofwhat we were learning at the
time from neuroscience andwhat's actually going on in
people's brains when they'reinteracting.
And we didn't always havefunctional MRIs but we do now so
(22:08):
we know these things.
So I kind of followed Heidifrom Imago to Encounter Centered
and I did a three-yearmasterclass with her in Miami
and have been really integratingthe two theories since.
It's probably been 15 years nowand couples usually call because
(22:30):
they want Imago, because Imagois more well-known Harville
Scott, I don't know.
Seven or eight books peoplehave read him.
They've seen him on Oprah.
They know what Imago is.
Or eight books.
People have read him.
They've seen him on Oprah.
They know what Imago is.
Not that many people know aboutECCT unless you're in couples
therapy.
And then everybody knows ECCT.
Katie is a very charismaticperson.
(22:50):
She's got a beautiful TED talkcalled the Power of Connection
that a lot of my clients gowatch and are really moved by.
And so I say well, and itreally moved by.
And so I say well, sure, comein for Imago and we'll do a lot.
And unless you have aspecialized degree in marriage
(23:11):
therapy, you're not going tofeel or notice any differences
and most clients don't care aslong as it works.
And it does work.
So I will tell you that inHades work the couples are still
turned toward each other,they're still talking to each
other in a at an 18-inch eyedistance.
The limbic brain on thosefunctional MRIs relaxes.
There's a safety, so I call ita limbic resonance.
(23:51):
So that part kind of calms downand what lights up is the
cortex.
So now they are in the part ofthe brain where they can be
creative and hear each other andreally remember that they love
each other, are in connectionand want to solve problems.
Also, at that distance you canhold hands releasing oxytocin,
that bonding hormone, and I canhelp them to regulate their
(24:13):
breath so that they're reallystaying in a rest and digest
state and not in that flightstate a rest and digest state
and not in that flight state.
So it makes a big differencejust pulling the chairs closer.
We call it the uncomfortableproximity, because most couples
don't want to do it and theywalk in and they go oh, the
chairs again, you know, and thenthey hop into them and at the
(24:34):
end they're so grateful becauseit creates a loving connection.
And then Heidi started talkingabout the three invisible
connectors.
She has a lot of metaphors inher work, but the three
invisible connectors are thespace that exists between any
two people, is their relationalspace, it's where the
(24:56):
relationship lives and it's onlyas sacred as what you put in it
.
So if you are putting badhabits, eye rolls and looking at
your phone when you should belooking into your partner's eyes
or raising your voice or fivemillion different things you
could put in there that wouldpollute that space, then you're
(25:17):
like magnets that approach thespace and go I'll go do my own
thing and I work with a lot ofcouples who are functional but
they're not connected becausethey approach the space and it's
just easier to go do their ownthing, and especially parents
will do that.
They get very busy with careerand parenting and they're
(25:38):
married, parenting and they'remarried, but they're not
experiencing a lot of joy and alot of intimacy.
So when the space is sacred,those same magnets attract.
They want to be together andthe space is very sacred and the
(25:59):
key is that our children livein the space between us as
parents.
So we want that space to besacred and if we don't have
children, we want it to besacred for us.
Even the dogs respond to thespace.
People who've brought theiremotional support dogs.
When they go into any sort ofpower struggle kind of dynamic,
the dog will go hide under mydesk.
As soon as I get them into thissafe space where they're
(26:22):
communicating in this structuredway, the dog will come and want
to be between them, becausedogs have big brains too and
they know when it's safe.
They know when they want to bepart of it.
Versus whoa I don't wantanything to do with this right.
So the space is the firstinvisible connector.
(26:43):
When we're aware of it.
We can do good things there.
The second metaphor is thatthere is a bridge and that the
bridge goes from one person tothe next.
And when you go on the bridgeyou take nothing but curiosity
and an open heart to hear andfeel your partner to be present
in their world.
You don't take your judgment,you don't take your criticism,
(27:06):
you don't take your alreadyknowing what they're going to
say or what they should say.
You don't take your yeah buts,you take only your curiosity to
be fully present.
And it can take 15 or 20minutes to get someone to really
cross the bridge intentionallyand land in the space of their
partner.
But when it happens, there's anencounter and that's the third
(27:29):
invisible connect.
The encounter is that soul tosoul meeting.
That happens when you createthe environment for it to occur
and when you are truly in theworld of your partner, you begin
to know them in ways you neverknew them and the narratives
that have been stuck unstick.
You get new meaning and again,because you're in the right part
(27:51):
of the brain, you can be verycreative there and it's really
beautiful.
And the word transformation isin the title because couples
really do transform with thiswork and when I do it in private
intensives where couples willcome, like this afternoon, this
couple's coming for four hours.
That's what I call a miniintensive.
(28:11):
The actual intensive iseight-hour sessions and usually
we do eight hours two days in arow.
It's a similar format as whenwe do the couple's retreat, when
they're there for three days.
Only it's private.
The private intensive isprivate.
The retreats are with fiveother couples.
What I like about that work issome want to go horizontal, week
(28:35):
to week to week to week.
But if you take that horizontalline and you turn it this way,
you've got an intensive.
It's a vertical kind of modeland what I like about it is for
some couples they need deeperhealing and they need it quicker
because they're in crisis,because there's been an affair
discovery, because I live in LAand people go on movie sets and
(28:56):
don't come back for six weeks.
So it's for people where theirschedule works and also for
people who need something deeper, quicker.
So I do that kind of work aswell and Shady's model is really
an intensive model.
The hard part about her modelis chopping it up into weekly
sessions, but I've also learnedto do that and it's also very
(29:18):
effective.
Liz Hale (29:19):
It's just different right, right, wonderful, amazing
yeah it's powerful.
Dave Schramm (29:25):
Now, mary k, you've talked a little bit about
um and I've heard you mentionyou know some of the
neuroscience.
I'm a big fan of neuroscience,positive psychology, that area
and you've said things like theyou know the cortex, or the, the
limbic system.
You've mentioned oxytocin,those types of aspects, and you
incorporate this right and youhelp couples access the right
parts of the brain and manageand solve problems and build
(29:48):
intimacy.
Is this really as complicatedas it sounds?
Sometimes some of these areasare like oh, my goodness, what's
happening?
Can you talk us through alittle bit about neuroscience
and even a few practical tipsfor couples to help them
understand a little bit aboutwhat's going on up here?
Mary Kay Cocharo (30:06):
You know it does sound complicated really,
but couples get it and you know,it's really a relief to have a
little bit of information aboutwhat's going on in the brain,
because it humanizes them.
You know, rather than lookingat your partner as if this jerk
would just stop doing that thing, we'd be a great couple.
They go.
Oh, the way I'm saying this istriggering his limbic brain and
(30:30):
his brain.
That part of his brain has justhijacked his essence and the
part of the brain that I fell inlove with, right.
So they can begin to takeresponsibility for the way that
they are triggering oneanother's neurobiology.
One of the things that Ilearned and I told you it was
over 30 years ago from HarvilleHendricks' Imago work is that
(30:54):
one of the most dysfunctionalpatterns that we see in couples
is when they get upset.
Dysfunctional patterns that wesee in couples is when they get
upset.
Their inability to work throughit comes frequently from their
reactive patterns.
So a person in his book willeither be a hailstorm, someone
whose energy expands whenthey're upset.
(31:16):
You know fighters, the onesthat want to talk get louder,
slam cabinets.
If you walk out of the room,they will follow you.
If you hang up on them, theywill call you back.
You know, these are the peoplewhose energy is very, very
expanded when they're upset.
I'm one of those, so I canabsolutely describe that one.
(31:39):
The opposite adaptation is whenpeople are turtles, when they
hypo-arouse, they go internal.
They don't want to talk, theydon't want the fight, they're
conflict avoidance.
If you continue as thehailstorm hailing on them, they
(32:04):
will go deeper and deeper intothe shell.
Now this creates a verydysfunctional pattern, because
one person is upset, they'redoing the only thing they know
how to do they're pursuing youto get it resolved.
But the very pursuit istriggering and scaring the
(32:27):
partner.
So the partner withdraws,retracts, shuts down just to
protect themselves and itbecomes the biggest trigger
possible to the partner, becausenow they feel ignored, they
feel not seen, not heard, notvalued.
They feel like they're beingabandoned in the relationship.
So they do more of the thingthey know how to do, they get
(32:49):
louder, and the other one now isgoing out the door and he's
getting.
You know, I say he because mostof the people who shut down are
male, but not always.
I always say that family oforigin, dynamic trumps gender
and culture, because that's justwhat I've seen over the years.
So we have to begin tounderstand what's happening
(33:09):
neurobiologically when someoneis in that fight or flight mode
and the other person is incollapse.
So I teach them about the vagalnerve, I teach them where they
are.
Are they in the sympatheticnervous system?
Are they in the parasympatheticnervous system when they come
into the bridge we call it thebridge position.
(33:31):
When they're 18 inches apartand they're going over the
bridge, all of that relaxes andwe now have the third option.
So I say to them when blowingup and shutting down doesn't
work, you need the third option.
And the third option is whereyou meet in the middle, without
all this reactivity.
We work on breath so that theycan go into the parasympathetic
(33:53):
nervous system and once they'recalm we can begin to explore
what this issue is.
Because at home they're infight or flight.
They are expanding their energyhypo-arousing, hyper-arousing
and there's no way to solveanything.
And I don't let them ever, ever, ever do that in my office.
I just don't let that happen,Because I always jokingly say
(34:17):
why pay me all this money?
You can have that fight at homefor free.
Dave Schramm (34:21):
That's right.
Mary Kay Cocharo (34:22):
And they get that.
They don't want to pay me tohave the same fight they're
having at home.
So just learning that you know.
Oh, and then the work is.
Where did you learn to hyperarouse?
When in your childhood was itimportant to get your needs met?
And you learned that the way todo that was to stomp and scream
, because your partner learnedthat the way to get his needs
(34:53):
met was to get quiet and hideunder the bed or in the closet.
So let's talk about whathappened.
What are the experiences ofchildhood that taught you?
Haiti calls them survival suits.
You've pulled on your survivalsuit and now what we've got is
the sound of two suits clanking.
Hartle calls them adaptations.
I think in almost every theorythere's acceptance that these
(35:15):
patterns have been learned inchildhood.
They are the way that wesurvive and we don't.
We don and we're not mad atthose survival suits.
They were useful, very useful.
They helped us to survive, butthey're just not working in this
current relationship and weneed to learn how to take them
off and to deal with one anotheressence to essence, not
(35:38):
survival suit to survival suit,and so even that piece of
neurobiology is important forthem to know, and also the idea
that once they are completelyflipped out and triggered, they
can't sit in the chairs and lookinto each other's eyes.
They don't want to.
That's a good time for a timeout, and so I teach them how to
(35:59):
self-soothe.
A good time for a time out, andso I teach them how to
self-soothe.
If you can't do it with eachother right now, go away for 20
minutes, self-soothe.
Know how to do that.
Get back online so that you'refully able to think and feel at
the same time.
In some theories we would sayyou're back in your window of
tolerance.
That's from trauma therapy.
And now you pull up two chairsand you do it better and
(36:23):
differently.
And they can do it with me.
It's harder to do at homewithout a coach, but the longer
they do it, it's like going tothe gym and working on your
muscles.
Eventually you don't need thedumbbells anymore, you can pick
up the groceries.
That's how I think of it.
So you're coming to my officelike the gym, and when that
(36:44):
relational muscle gets strongenough, you won't need to come
to my office anymore.
You'll have those muscles andyou'll use them at home.
And what I love about couplestherapy is it doesn't take years
.
It takes months.
Liz Hale (36:57):
Especially with the intensive therapy that you do,
Mary Kay, yeah well with theintensive.
Mary Kay Cocharo (37:03):
usually they do one or two follow-ups a month
or two later and then theyfine-tune periodically.
But they really get a lot fromthose full two days.
That's wonderful.
Liz Hale (37:14):
A lot of my sessions go to two, three hours,
occasionally four hours.
I'm a woman after my own heart.
Dave Schramm (37:21):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in um, we're going to jump
ahead.
Liz Hale (37:38):
Maria k and I'd love to what we ask all of our guests
.
This next question in honor ofthe name of our podcast, of
course is what do you believe isthe key to a stronger marriage
connection?
What?
What do you think If you had tochoose one?
Mary Kay Cocharo (38:01):
I think.
Well, I'm going to say one withthree parts.
I think connection really comesfrom touch, affection, sensual,
sexual touch.
So I think that physicalcomponent is very important.
I think communication obviouslysafe, respectful, deep, deep
listening is very important.
(38:21):
And then I think the thirdthing is shared activity.
I think couples need to spendtime together.
They need to find things thatbring them joy and they need to
share in those together.
They need to find things thatbring them joy and they need to
share in those.
And in fact, if I can make ashameless plug for my new card
deck that I created for couples,I put those three suits in the
deck.
So the name of the deck isConnect, Communicate, Create,
(38:44):
and the 15 Connect cards areabout touch and the
communication cards are aboutcommunication and not what to
talk about but how to do it.
And then the third suit iscreate, and that's about
creating interesting and funshared activity.
So I really think it's athree-part thing, and I've seen
(39:05):
too many couples thatcommunicate really well and
don't have sex.
They just have sexlessmarriages even though they seem
emotionally close.
You have to focus on touch, youhave to make that a priority.
I see couples that have greatsex lives but do absolutely
nothing out of the bedroom.
They don't cook together, theydon't go on walks, they don't go
on trips, they just stay homeand have sex.
(39:28):
So I mean, I feel like you haveto have these things working
for it to be a really true deepconnection and for the space to
be nourished to the point whereyou want to stay.
Liz Hale (39:39):
I would love to get another stack of cards like
yours.
Where can listeners find outwhere to get?
Where do we get those cards?
Find out more about what youoffer, your services and other
rich resources you provide, maryKay.
Mary Kay Cocharo (39:53):
Yeah, thank you.
I have a very robust website aswell as Facebook page.
It's wwwmkkacherocom.
There's a media page where youwill eventually have access to
this podcast, but there's a lotof radio talk shows, podcasts,
(40:13):
articles.
There's a YouTube channel.
It's very robust because it'sbeen around for so many years.
It's like a two-bedroom housethat got extensions and other
rooms added on, so there's a lotof information there.
The Card Deck OutConnect,communicate, create um, the card
deck uh, connect, communicate,create actually has its own
(40:35):
website, so it's thatcom.
Uh, it's under construction.
So when you go there now, itsays under construction.
The physical deck is in umproduction right now.
It's being printed and it willbe sold on amazon.
But the virtual deck, theinteractive mobile deck, is on
deckablecom.
Currently you can get theDeckable app for free and you
(41:00):
can go to my deck and get afive-day trial and if you like
it, then you buy it or you usesome of the cards.
It's fun, you can shuffle them,you can find your favorite one
and send it to your.
Dave Schramm (41:09):
Oh, I love it.
Mary Kay Cocharo (41:10):
It's a very interactive kind of thing.
Liz Hale (41:14):
My husband.
He's going to be so excited.
Dave Schramm (41:17):
That's right, Liz.
Liz Hale (41:20):
I have a few stacks of card decks throughout the house
.
I want you to know.
Mary Kay Cocharo (41:23):
And.
Liz Hale (41:23):
I still every now and then.
I still try and play this on.
Mary Kay Cocharo (41:26):
I've got my colleague's deck on my desk, I
kept getting asked to write abook and my thought was we have
so many relationship books andever since COVID, people's
brains just want quicker bits.
You know, like nobody's focusedright now to read a whole
nother book and I thought whatif I take some of what I would
(41:48):
put in a book and make itdigestible in little sound bites
?
Because you can do one card aweek and if you practice that
thing on that card with yourpartner, you're going to be
building connection.
And I think, more importantly,for couples that are in couples
therapy, it gives them kind ofhomework between sessions.
As a lot of my colleagues willsay to me, I created this
(42:10):
beautiful connection in myoffice and it was so lovely and
they came back a week later andthey were back to square one,
because couples don't often knowwhat to do between sessions and
so this gives them an idea ofhow to stay connected.
You can shuffle them and justdo whatever one comes up.
Or, if you know you've got tofocus more on communication,
(42:31):
we've got touchdown or we've gotplenty of activities.
You can pick the suit you like.
So I'm hoping it'll be a veryuseful tool for couples.
Liz Hale (42:38):
Beautiful, I think it will be.
I can't wait to get my hands onit myself.
Dave Schramm (42:42):
Oh yeah, and we'll put those resources.
Oh, go ahead, Mary Kay.
Mary Kay Cocharo (42:47):
Oh, I'm sorry, Dave, I was just going to say
and for therapists, whetheryou're a couples therapist or
not, but you want to learn howto work with couples.
I do have a 12-hour trainingvideo that is for sale on my
website under courses, but it'snice to teach this 12-hour
course and they were verygenerous in recording it and
(43:09):
editing it, so it's nowavailable, as you know, as an
online course.
Liz Hale (43:16):
Amazing, great Good for you.
I love it.
Yeah, and we'll put the linksfor all of us, I should say.
Dave Schramm (43:22):
Yeah, and we'll put links to those for our
listeners.
For the card decks yeah, theinformation on YouTube, even the
resource that she justmentioned about the online
course for therapists.
So our listeners go to the shownotes and you'll find links to
all that information.
Mary Kay, before we let you go,we like to ask all of our
(43:42):
guests another question, andthat is the takeaway.
Is there a take-home message?
We call it a takeaway of theday.
Do you hope our listeners willremember from our discussion
today?
Mary Kay Cocharo (43:52):
the day that you hope our listeners will
remember from our discussiontoday.
Yeah, I mean, for me, the thingthat's always the most
important is to focus on thedynamic in the space between,
because if you are convincedthat the problem with your
relationship is your partner,you're powerless, you don't have
any ability to change anotherperson.
But if you can say, when thishappens, I feel this and I
(44:15):
really want you to understandthat about me and understand the
importance kind of like thewoman with the dog the space be
healed and the relationshipimproves.
So, rather than blaming eachother, remember to look at
what's going on between the twoof you rather than what's inside
your partner.
Dave Schramm (44:36):
Love that.
Yeah, Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway of the day?
Liz Hale (44:39):
I just remember seeing that same thing from Harville
Hendricks, mary Kay, about thespace between right.
And my takeaway, dave and MaryKay, today is this feeling I
have right now reminds me of dotdot dot.
I think it's brilliant, I loveit, dave.
What about you, my friend?
What's the richest nuggetyou're taking away today with
our time with Mary Kay Cacharo?
(45:01):
I love her name, mary KayCacharo.
Dave Schramm (45:03):
I love that too, Liz, and I'm not familiar with
Imago before this.
So all of this, I'm just tryingto keep up and soak all of this
in.
I love some of the practicalthings that I can start working
on right now.
Mary Kay, I think you mentionedthe 18 inch.
Yeah, I think you called it.
The bridge right Is there, Idon't know if I call it.
The time Is that like a 30seconds or this is three hours
(45:26):
or what type of it you?
Mary Kay Cocharo (45:27):
know, staring in my wife's.
I'm going to see if she'll doit.
You mentioned that, dave.
First of all, use the word gazeLike think about staring versus
gazing.
You know gazing is a soft,connected sort of look where I
think staring.
I remember as children we'dhave stare downs.
You know that were kind of hard.
You know there is a lot ofresearch.
(45:49):
If you look at 18-inch eye gazeand the brain, it's called a
brain bridge or limbic resonance.
The research was like with fourminutes and there was like
people looking into each other'seyes who weren't lovers or
sometimes didn't even know eachother, but they would have this
(46:09):
deep connection through the eyegaze and some percentage of them
fell in love with looking ateach other.
But they would have this deepconnection through the eye gaze
and some percentage of them fellin love with looking at each
other.
It's crazy.
It's like you know they say thewindows are the eyes of the
soul.
You know, to the soul and Ithink that's absolutely true.
So sometimes when couples can'tquite get out of their fight
(46:29):
mode at home in between sessionsI will have them.
I say, just if this happens,forget the words.
Words are not your friends.
Harville says the mostdangerous thing you ever do is
talk.
Talking is the most dangerousthing we do, but if you just
pull those chairs together andgaze into each other's eyes, you
will feel the connectionhappening and suddenly you feel
(46:52):
kind of less angry at yourpartner and you know the issues
there and you will get to itwhen you can.
You maybe have to save it forthe therapy office, but the gaze
.
Just try it with your partnersand see how you feel.
Dave Schramm (47:05):
Yeah, I love that Very practical, very simple that
I can do.
Mary Kay Cocharo (47:09):
I'm going to, I'm gonna try that today and you
know, dave, we got researchcame from was research on
mothers breastfeeding babies.
18 inches is a distance betweenthe parent's eyes and child's
eyes when you feed, whetheryou're the dad with a bottle or
the mom breastfeeding, whateverso that 18 inches develops the
(47:30):
baby's brain.
Without eye gaze, we havefailure to thrive.
Children cannot grow withouteye gaze.
The brain doesn't grow withouteye gaze.
You know, when you're in thesupermarket and the baby in the
stroller behind you is goinglike this, trying to catch your
eyes, oh yeah, they neatly nowthey need eye gaze.
They need eye gaze Because wehave neuroplasticity, which, for
(47:56):
the listeners, means our brainscan change until the day we die
.
Our brains are plastic.
We can mold them and changethem.
When you gaze into yourpartner's eyes, you're actually
changing the neural pathways ineach other's brains, so it
really is transformational inthat way.
Liz Hale (48:13):
That is unusually close, isn't it?
Mary Kay Cocharo (48:17):
Right, I mean uncomfortable proximity, Liz.
Liz Hale (48:21):
That is something I could see how it could be very
powerful.
All right, Dave, return andreport.
Okay, you go first.
Dave Schramm (48:27):
Yeah, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna go do that.
This is interesting.
Mary Kate and I had heard aboutthe baby and the parent gaze.
I just hadn't translated thatover, and that's why I plead
with parents please get off yourphone and screens and look at
your baby's eyes, because it'snot just magic happening.
There's real, actually brainchanges happening, right.
Mary Kay Cocharo (48:49):
A hundred percent and I mean we could have
a whole another hour talkingabout the way that technology
has really impactedrelationships.
And I know there are some goodthings about, you know, staying
connected digitally and all ofthat.
But when I get these youngcouples in and they're having
their fights on text, theirfights on text I have to say you
(49:11):
know, words are 7% ofcommunication.
You are missing so much of whoyour partner is when you're only
talking on text.
It's a whole new world.
Dave Schramm (49:27):
Yeah, it really is .
All kinds of distractions.
Well, Mary Kay, you've beenvery generous with your time and
the wisdom that you have sharedwith us today.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Mary Kay Cocharo (49:36):
Well, thank you, it's just been so fun to be
with the two of you.
I really appreciate it.
Liz Hale (49:41):
Back at you, mary Kay.
Dave Schramm (49:42):
Yes, yeah Well, friends, that does it for us.
We'll see you next time.
Another episode of the StrongerMarriage Connection podcast.
Liz Hale (49:49):
That's right, and remember it's the small and
simple things that create astronger marriage connection.
Take care now.
Bye-bye.
Dave Schramm (49:59):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(50:20):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
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Next, If you want even moreresources to improve your
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StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(50:41):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(51:04):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
Most of us didn't grow up in a perfect family or
even have perfect childhoods.
Research shows that while wecan't change our past, it still
can have a profound impact onour lives and our relationships.
Today, dr Liz and I welcomeMary Kay Cuccero to the show.
She's trained in Imago therapy,which focuses on transforming
conflicts into opportunities forhealing and growth that often
(00:26):
stem from our childhood.
Mary Kay shares helpful tipsabout communication and
connection, including the18-inch gaze into each other's
eyes, and so much more.
Mary Kay Cacero has worked as acouples therapist for 35 years
in Los Angeles, california.
She helps couples through thelenses of a model relationship
(00:46):
therapy and encounter centeredcouples transformation, both
proven methods for improvingcommunication and intimacy in
relationships.
Her brand offers intensive allday or even two day sessions,
workshops and weekend retreatsfor couples, a service not
provided by many of hercompetitors.
This allows couples to fullyimmerse themselves in the
therapeutic process.
And weekend retreats forcouples, a service not provided
(01:07):
by many of her competitors.
This allows couples to fullyimmerse themselves in the
therapeutic process without thedistractions of daily life, in a
relaxing setting.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Liz Hale (01:20):
Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection.
I'm psychologist, dr Liz Hale,along with the beloved professor
, dr Dave Schramm.
Together, we have dedicated ourlife's work to bringing you the
best we have in valid maritalresearch, along with a few tips
and tools to help you create themarriage of your dreams.
Well, for 35 years, licensedmarriage and family therapist,
(01:42):
mary Kay Cacero has used herskills and training to help
couples of all ages and stagesfind better ways to reconnect
and rekindle, even in the mostdamaged relationships.
That's pretty inspiring, isn'tit?
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection, mary Kay.
Well, thank you so much.
It's a pleasure to be here.
It is an honor to have you.
You have specialized advancedtraining in a field that I have
(02:06):
been fascinated with for yearsbut I didn't do a very deep dive
into it and that is Imagotherapy.
I love this idea that the Imagoprocess strengthens your
relationship, all while healingchildhood wounds.
It's kind of a win and a winwin here building healthy, happy
families.
Please explain the Imagoprocess and do you have a
(02:28):
favorite tool that you use inyour intensive couples
counseling?
Mary Kay Cocharo (02:32):
Yes.
Well, first of all, thank youfor saying Imago.
I can't tell you all thevarious ways people pronounce
that.
Imago is from the Latin, itmeans image, and it is a theory
and a practice that was designedby Drs Harbel Hendricks and his
(02:53):
wife, helen Le Kelly Hunt, andI think over 30 years ago they
had a bestseller called Gettingthe Love you Want, and I think
it's a bestseller because itspeaks to people.
They read that book and theyfind themselves, they find their
relationship in that book.
They go, oh yeah, thisresonates.
(03:14):
And his theory is actually quitecomplex and I will not do it
justice in this small littleperiod of time that we have here
, but the idea is that we aredrawn to, attracted to and fall
in love with someone who feelsfamiliar.
You know that feeling.
(03:35):
You're going, let's say, nowall these couples go on online
dating sites and everythinglines up, checks all the boxes,
and they're very excited andthey go to have coffee and they
come back and you say, how didit go?
And they say, oh, there was nochemistry.
Well, what does that mean?
What is chemistry?
And Drs Hunt and Dr andHendricks believed that the
(04:19):
chemistry is this unconsciousdrive toward a person who has a
lot of the childhood traits.
That about the theory is thisidea of the stages of romantic
relationship, the idea beingthat at the beginning, in the
romantic stage, we get a lot ofhormones and a lot of chemicals
in our brain that last maybe upto two years, depending on what
(04:40):
you're doing, but maybe up totwo years, and in those first
phases of the relationship weare very romantically attracted.
It's called limerence in sometheories but we are only seeing
what's positive in the otherperson from our childhood, like
oh, you're sweet, like my momwas, or oh, you're really strong
(05:02):
and silent, like my dad was.
Yeah, his chemicals begin towear off after a period of time
and he believes that naturegives us that boost to get us to
commit and probably to havethat first baby.
You know, two years, if you'redoing it right, should be enough
time.
Of course, sociologically wedon't do that at all.
(05:22):
We live together for sevenyears.
We never have babies or we havethem before we get.
You know, we don't follow thebiological rules.
But when those chemicals wearoff we enter another stage of
relationship that Dr Hendrickscalls the power struggle.
In the power chemical becausethe blinders we are now also
(05:46):
seeing those negativecharacteristics of our early
childhood caretakers andsometimes I mean, for example,
let's say you did have that calm, quiet, stoic father and
initially you see that asstrength in your partner.
(06:06):
And after all the chemicalswear off, you might suddenly
start shaking them by theshoulders, saying why won't you
talk to me?
Hello, anybody in there?
You know it's funny how we tryto find the very thing we hired
for.
You know, the things in thebeginning can actually grow to
be the things that are reallymost painful and frustrating in
(06:27):
the relationship.
So when we've dipped down intothe power struggle phase, that's
when most couples begin to seekcounseling, couples counseling.
We know that about 50% of thepopulation who are married will
just divorce at that phase.
The average amount of time thata couple will stay in a power
struggle before they divorce isabout six years.
(06:48):
So that's pretty long suffering.
In my mind that's a shockingstatistic actually.
So they will exit therelationship, but because we are
wired for connection, they willgo on a dating site and soon
find another person to be inconnection with and they will
(07:11):
get that romantic stage again.
So it's like, oh, this is lotsbetter than that person I left.
Then those chemicals wear offand now here we are again in a
power struggle, brand new personwho doesn't look, on the
surface, anything like the lastperson, and yet the struggle is
the same.
Why is that?
Well, we bring ourselves toeverything right.
And if you think about thestruggle as the tip of an
(07:31):
iceberg, all that under thewater ice is our history, and
wherever we go, there we are, webring it with Right.
So that's part of the Imagotheory that I find fascinating,
and the idea is that we, asImago therapists, help couples
out of the power struggle intothe next phase, which is called
(07:52):
mature love, and that's sort oflike an earned love.
There's no chemicals, nohormones involved, except for
the ones that you can createthrough recommitting,
re-romanticizing, understandingthe stage that you are in, not
blaming your partner for thefact that you're in it, but
(08:13):
understanding it in a differentway and working together to heal
those icebergs so that you canhave a more mature kind of love.
That isn't ecstasy, it's morelike joy.
You know, what all couples thatI've seen in 35 years really
want is they want to be seen,they want to be heard and they
(08:35):
want to feel valued.
And if you give them astructure where the
communication is respectful,it's deep, it's intimate, and
you can look back in your pastand find out what it is you're
trying to heal in thisrelationship.
You grow and you heal and yourrelationship becomes like a
(08:57):
beautiful, safe space.
So those are the things I likeabout the theory.
And then the tool that Harvillecreated is called the
intentional dialogue, wherecouples structure their
communication in a way and thisis a lot of therapists use this,
even if they're not imagotherapists, but they've heard
(09:19):
about it and it works is whenyou have the couple talking to
each other and one person speaks, the other person listens and
the person who's listening ismirroring back what they're
hearing for accuracy, becausesometimes we respond to what we
think we heard, not actuallywhat we said, and so we're
checking that out.
We're really staying with thespeaker.
(09:41):
And then there's a three-stepprocess of mirroring back
validating, which isn't agreeing.
Validating is I hear you andyou make sense to me People get
stuck there because they well,if they don't agree, then it
doesn't make sense.
You have to work on that.
And then the third step isempathizing really putting
(10:03):
yourself in your partner's shoesto feel what it's like to be
sitting with that narrative,with that story and the pain
that has come from that story,and there's something very
healing about that because again, you're being seen, you're
being heard and you are beingvalued, if your partner can
really hang on your every wordand understand and have empathy
(10:25):
for where you are.
So in a really tight nutshell,that's a lot of what imago is
about, and there has been a lotof research now about how
effective imago is and it's um.
It started as the very firsttheory I studied.
I was probably certified inImago I have to think about how
(10:48):
old my son was, because trainingwas 30 years ago probably and
at the time it was one of thevery, very first relational
paradigms that you could study.
Of course, now there are manyothers, but Imago is still a
very tried and true theory andit's spread around the world.
(11:09):
I think it's practiced in 22countries and about 15 languages
.
You know it's everywhere, whichis great because I can go
almost anywhere in the world andfind colleagues I can stay with
.
That's funny.
So those are some of the highpoints of a marker yeah, that's,
that's really helpful.
Dave Schramm (11:28):
Thanks, mary k.
I think I'm curious what do youdo when you're working with a
couple and, let's say, neitherof them finds in their partner,
um, you know this familiaressence from from childhood.
Is it just a matter of time,you know, sometimes you have to
help them dig a little bitdeeper to find that reflective
image you know in their past, orthat healing or a trauma or
that experience.
(11:49):
Or are there some couples forwhom it's just, you know, the
concept doesn't, doesn't apply.
They had pretty good, uh,healthy, childhoods.
Mary Kay Cocharo (11:57):
What are they doing in my office, Dave?
Dave Schramm (11:59):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Mary Kay Cocharo (12:01):
That's the truth of it.
Of course you can have a goodenough childhood and you can
have very secure attachment, andhopefully we want all people to
have that.
But the truth is there are noperfect parents and there are no
perfect childhoods and almosteverybody has something.
And if you have anything, theplace that's going to come out
(12:22):
is in your most intimaterelationship, because whatever
wasn't perfect is going to gettriggered by your partner
because you have been attractedto this person, because there is
that imago.
So in the theory, you're notgoing to be together if there's
not that match.
But if you have a very, verydisrupted relationship, harville
(12:46):
has taught us all to look atthat as what an opportunity,
because the more dysfunctionalthe relationship, the more clean
there is, the better the amongthe matches, and so there's a
lot to work with there.
There's going to be deeperhealing and more growth in that
relationship if they'll committo do the work.
(13:07):
Now I did say 50% of couplesdon't come in to do the work.
They just go to divorce support.
But I figure if somebody hastaken the time to land in my
office, they want healing, theywant this to be better, they
don't want to give up on eachother, and so you don't have to
dig that deep, which doesn'tmean the work isn't difficult.
(13:29):
It is difficult.
I have to hold a lot of spacewhen I work with these couples
for all of the things that arepainful.
And sometimes the easiest wayfor a couple to deal with their
dysfunction is to go outside themarriage, and so then we get a
lot of affair recovery and a lotof sex addiction and a lot of
(13:49):
drinking, drugs shopping, youknow, over parenting.
You know somebody who's marriedto the children who barely
looks at their spouse.
So I guess in this theory youwould just not end up with a
couple that didn't havesomething that's holding them
together and something thatisn't the best it could be.
Dave Schramm (14:13):
Yeah.
Mary Kay Cocharo (14:14):
Does that make sense?
Dave Schramm (14:15):
Yeah, absolutely, and our listeners they love
hearing success stories orexamples of real life couples,
obviously without names.
But can you think of asituation you know and again,
you've worked with.
You know hundreds, thousandsperhaps of couples.
Is there any other couple thatcomes to mind that you can kind
of share?
You know their story a littlebit and how this was helpful.
Mary Kay Cocharo (14:37):
I don't know if this is the biggest or
deepest example because, as yousaid, I really have worked with
thousands of couples, but I willtell you something that I
remember, and it was a number ofyears ago.
I do retreats and I also doworkshops for couples, and this
was a one-day workshop and Ineeded a demonstration couple, a
couple that was willing to comeup because they were really in
(15:00):
a struggle about some issue andwork with me in a fishbowl with
everyone else watching, andthere were probably 20 to 25
couples in the audience, so 40,50 people.
So this very young couple,early 30s, raises their hand
very quickly and says pick me,pick me.
We have this issue and we areabout to break up over it.
(15:22):
They were premarital, but theyhad their wedding planned.
It was a month away and she areabout to break up over it.
They were premarital, but theyhad their wedding planned, it
was a month away and she wasready to exit the engagement
over this issue.
So they come up and I'mthinking, okay, well, this is
clearly important.
They're very upset about thisissue.
And when I just asked thembefore I began, you know what is
(15:44):
the issue they were fightingover whether or not to have a
dog and whether or not the dogwould be allowed to sleep in
their bed.
And I, you know, I've beendoing this a long time.
I know in my brain that thereare no small issues in a
(16:04):
relationship.
You know, anything can triggersomething big.
I also know that the issue isabout 10% of the problem and 90%
of the problem is what'sgetting triggered from their
past.
And I know this intellectually,but I got to tell you in that
moment I was doing an internaleye roll.
I was really like, oh my God, Igot 50 people watching here and
(16:27):
these two are bringing up thissilly thing.
This is never going to be a bigdemo.
Why did I choose that?
So we start, you know.
But I'm a professional, so Istart the dialogue.
I'm really working with them.
The guy goes first.
He talks about how dogs aredirty, how he hates dogs, he
doesn't want one, he certainlydoesn't want a big one and never
(16:49):
, ever, ever, ever go into hisbed and he would rather not get
married than have this dog.
So she listens, she mirrors,she validates, she empathizes.
It's all going swimmingly, buta little shallow, not the depth
I want to demonstrate.
And then she gets her turn andshe starts with why.
(17:12):
It's not why, but just thatit's very important for her to
have a big dog and sheabsolutely has to sleep with the
dog and she loves him, butthere will always be a dog in
the space between them in thebed and she really needed this
dog and she's crying.
So I know there's somethingimportant here that has nothing
(17:32):
to do with this dog.
So I have her say this onesimple thing this feeling I have
right now reminds me of,reminds me of.
He goes back into her childhoodmemories and starts telling the
story of when she was sevenyears old.
Her mother died of cancer andno one actually explained it to
(17:55):
her, just mother was there, andthen mother was gone.
She didn't get to go to thefuneral.
Nobody really sat down andtalked to her about the death of
her mother or how she wasfeeling about it.
But she had a large dog and thedog slept with her in the bed
every night.
She held the dog, she criedinto the dog's fur and this dog
(18:17):
saved her life.
Now I'm telling you there's nota dry eye in the 50 people
watching this thing.
It was so moving and you justcan physically see the shift in
the partner's face whichfrequently happens when it
clicks, that this is somethingdeep and important for your
(18:39):
partner.
Now, in all the fights they hadhad about this dog, nobody had
ever said and this reminds me ofbut that little line, that
little lead line, took her back.
She looked like a little girlwhen she was talking and he was
very moved.
So by the time he had empathizedwith all of this, their
(19:01):
follow-up conversation, theirfollow-up dialogue, was how
large should the dog be?
How often should the dog getgroomed so that the dog can
sleep in our bed?
How big of a bed should we buy?
Right?
So a total shift in thisdynamic where he now is trying
to assist her in getting herneeds met.
And they are problem problemsolving from the cortex.
(19:24):
They had been in their limbic,their reactive brain, on this
issue for so long, and youcannot solve a problem from your
limbic brain.
It's all emotion there.
They needed their thinkingbrain and this dialogue pushed
them into their limbic brain,out of their limbic brain into
their cortex, so that they couldbegin to be a creative couple,
(19:47):
and creative couples can solvetheir own problems.
But they needed the safety ofthat conversation to get there.
So I always remember thatbecause it's a good reminder
that there are no small problems.
Everything has a meaning tosomeone and until you understand
the meaning you can't moveforward.
Dave Schramm (20:09):
That's powerful, Mary Kay.
Mary Kay Cocharo (20:13):
It's a really interesting little story.
I mean, I really learnedsomething from them that day.
Liz Hale (20:21):
Or was at least reminded of what I know.
Right.
That's why I've always beeninterested in Imago therapy.
It's just fascinating to me.
Dave Schramm (20:29):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
Liz Hale (20:41):
and we're back, let's dive right in okay, let's move
on to another specialization youhave, please, mary kay, and
that is encountered centeredtechniques.
I'm not familiar with this atall.
Can you please describe whatthat is and offer us an example,
a a technique?
Mary Kay Cocharo (20:58):
Yeah this is an offshoot of Imago.
It's called Encounter-CenteredCouples Transformation, ecct,
and it comes from the work ofHedy Schleifer.
Hedy Schleifer was a masterImago trainer, really Harbel's
right arm for a very long time,really harples right arm for a
(21:23):
very long time.
When I first trained in Imago,all of my advanced training was
with Haiti and then she startedkind of adding things to the
theory, changing it a little bit, and it started to become its
own thing and so at one pointshe left Imago and started the
encounter-centered work and Iloved it so much.
(21:46):
It really resonated to me it isImago's theory but the
techniques are a little bitdifferent and I think she
started integrating a lot ofwhat we were learning at the
time from neuroscience andwhat's actually going on in
people's brains when they'reinteracting.
And we didn't always havefunctional MRIs but we do now so
(22:08):
we know these things.
So I kind of followed Heidifrom Imago to Encounter Centered
and I did a three-yearmasterclass with her in Miami
and have been really integratingthe two theories since.
It's probably been 15 years nowand couples usually call because
(22:30):
they want Imago, because Imagois more well-known Harville
Scott, I don't know.
Seven or eight books peoplehave read him.
They've seen him on Oprah.
They know what Imago is.
Or eight books.
People have read him.
They've seen him on Oprah.
They know what Imago is.
Not that many people know aboutECCT unless you're in couples
therapy.
And then everybody knows ECCT.
Katie is a very charismaticperson.
(22:50):
She's got a beautiful TED talkcalled the Power of Connection
that a lot of my clients gowatch and are really moved by.
And so I say well, and itreally moved by.
And so I say well, sure, comein for Imago and we'll do a lot.
And unless you have aspecialized degree in marriage
(23:11):
therapy, you're not going tofeel or notice any differences
and most clients don't care aslong as it works.
And it does work.
So I will tell you that inHades work the couples are still
turned toward each other,they're still talking to each
other in a at an 18-inch eyedistance.
The limbic brain on thosefunctional MRIs relaxes.
There's a safety, so I call ita limbic resonance.
(23:51):
So that part kind of calms downand what lights up is the
cortex.
So now they are in the part ofthe brain where they can be
creative and hear each other andreally remember that they love
each other, are in connectionand want to solve problems.
Also, at that distance you canhold hands releasing oxytocin,
that bonding hormone, and I canhelp them to regulate their
(24:13):
breath so that they're reallystaying in a rest and digest
state and not in that flightstate a rest and digest state
and not in that flight state.
So it makes a big differencejust pulling the chairs closer.
We call it the uncomfortableproximity, because most couples
don't want to do it and theywalk in and they go oh, the
chairs again, you know, and thenthey hop into them and at the
(24:34):
end they're so grateful becauseit creates a loving connection.
And then Heidi started talkingabout the three invisible
connectors.
She has a lot of metaphors inher work, but the three
invisible connectors are thespace that exists between any
two people, is their relationalspace, it's where the
(24:56):
relationship lives and it's onlyas sacred as what you put in it
.
So if you are putting badhabits, eye rolls and looking at
your phone when you should belooking into your partner's eyes
or raising your voice or fivemillion different things you
could put in there that wouldpollute that space, then you're
(25:17):
like magnets that approach thespace and go I'll go do my own
thing and I work with a lot ofcouples who are functional but
they're not connected becausethey approach the space and it's
just easier to go do their ownthing, and especially parents
will do that.
They get very busy with careerand parenting and they're
(25:38):
married, parenting and they'remarried, but they're not
experiencing a lot of joy and alot of intimacy.
So when the space is sacred,those same magnets attract.
They want to be together andthe space is very sacred and the
(25:59):
key is that our children livein the space between us as
parents.
So we want that space to besacred and if we don't have
children, we want it to besacred for us.
Even the dogs respond to thespace.
People who've brought theiremotional support dogs.
When they go into any sort ofpower struggle kind of dynamic,
the dog will go hide under mydesk.
As soon as I get them into thissafe space where they're
(26:22):
communicating in this structuredway, the dog will come and want
to be between them, becausedogs have big brains too and
they know when it's safe.
They know when they want to bepart of it.
Versus whoa I don't wantanything to do with this right.
So the space is the firstinvisible connector.
(26:43):
When we're aware of it.
We can do good things there.
The second metaphor is thatthere is a bridge and that the
bridge goes from one person tothe next.
And when you go on the bridgeyou take nothing but curiosity
and an open heart to hear andfeel your partner to be present
in their world.
You don't take your judgment,you don't take your criticism,
(27:06):
you don't take your alreadyknowing what they're going to
say or what they should say.
You don't take your yeah buts,you take only your curiosity to
be fully present.
And it can take 15 or 20minutes to get someone to really
cross the bridge intentionallyand land in the space of their
partner.
But when it happens, there's anencounter and that's the third
(27:29):
invisible connect.
The encounter is that soul tosoul meeting.
That happens when you createthe environment for it to occur
and when you are truly in theworld of your partner, you begin
to know them in ways you neverknew them and the narratives
that have been stuck unstick.
You get new meaning and again,because you're in the right part
(27:51):
of the brain, you can be verycreative there and it's really
beautiful.
And the word transformation isin the title because couples
really do transform with thiswork and when I do it in private
intensives where couples willcome, like this afternoon, this
couple's coming for four hours.
That's what I call a miniintensive.
(28:11):
The actual intensive iseight-hour sessions and usually
we do eight hours two days in arow.
It's a similar format as whenwe do the couple's retreat, when
they're there for three days.
Only it's private.
The private intensive isprivate.
The retreats are with fiveother couples.
What I like about that work issome want to go horizontal, week
(28:35):
to week to week to week.
But if you take that horizontalline and you turn it this way,
you've got an intensive.
It's a vertical kind of modeland what I like about it is for
some couples they need deeperhealing and they need it quicker
because they're in crisis,because there's been an affair
discovery, because I live in LAand people go on movie sets and
(28:56):
don't come back for six weeks.
So it's for people where theirschedule works and also for
people who need something deeper, quicker.
So I do that kind of work aswell and Shady's model is really
an intensive model.
The hard part about her modelis chopping it up into weekly
sessions, but I've also learnedto do that and it's also very
(29:18):
effective.
Liz Hale (29:19):
It's just different right, right, wonderful, amazing
yeah it's powerful.
Dave Schramm (29:25):
Now, mary k, you've talked a little bit about
um and I've heard you mentionyou know some of the
neuroscience.
I'm a big fan of neuroscience,positive psychology, that area
and you've said things like theyou know the cortex, or the, the
limbic system.
You've mentioned oxytocin,those types of aspects, and you
incorporate this right and youhelp couples access the right
parts of the brain and manageand solve problems and build
(29:48):
intimacy.
Is this really as complicatedas it sounds?
Sometimes some of these areasare like oh, my goodness, what's
happening?
Can you talk us through alittle bit about neuroscience
and even a few practical tipsfor couples to help them
understand a little bit aboutwhat's going on up here?
Mary Kay Cocharo (30:06):
You know it does sound complicated really,
but couples get it and you know,it's really a relief to have a
little bit of information aboutwhat's going on in the brain,
because it humanizes them.
You know, rather than lookingat your partner as if this jerk
would just stop doing that thing, we'd be a great couple.
They go.
Oh, the way I'm saying this istriggering his limbic brain and
(30:30):
his brain.
That part of his brain has justhijacked his essence and the
part of the brain that I fell inlove with, right.
So they can begin to takeresponsibility for the way that
they are triggering oneanother's neurobiology.
One of the things that Ilearned and I told you it was
over 30 years ago from HarvilleHendricks' Imago work is that
(30:54):
one of the most dysfunctionalpatterns that we see in couples
is when they get upset.
Dysfunctional patterns that wesee in couples is when they get
upset.
Their inability to work throughit comes frequently from their
reactive patterns.
So a person in his book willeither be a hailstorm, someone
whose energy expands whenthey're upset.
(31:16):
You know fighters, the onesthat want to talk get louder,
slam cabinets.
If you walk out of the room,they will follow you.
If you hang up on them, theywill call you back.
You know, these are the peoplewhose energy is very, very
expanded when they're upset.
I'm one of those, so I canabsolutely describe that one.
(31:39):
The opposite adaptation is whenpeople are turtles, when they
hypo-arouse, they go internal.
They don't want to talk, theydon't want the fight, they're
conflict avoidance.
If you continue as thehailstorm hailing on them, they
(32:04):
will go deeper and deeper intothe shell.
Now this creates a verydysfunctional pattern, because
one person is upset, they'redoing the only thing they know
how to do they're pursuing youto get it resolved.
But the very pursuit istriggering and scaring the
(32:27):
partner.
So the partner withdraws,retracts, shuts down just to
protect themselves and itbecomes the biggest trigger
possible to the partner, becausenow they feel ignored, they
feel not seen, not heard, notvalued.
They feel like they're beingabandoned in the relationship.
So they do more of the thingthey know how to do, they get
(32:49):
louder, and the other one now isgoing out the door and he's
getting.
You know, I say he because mostof the people who shut down are
male, but not always.
I always say that family oforigin, dynamic trumps gender
and culture, because that's justwhat I've seen over the years.
So we have to begin tounderstand what's happening
(33:09):
neurobiologically when someoneis in that fight or flight mode
and the other person is incollapse.
So I teach them about the vagalnerve, I teach them where they
are.
Are they in the sympatheticnervous system?
Are they in the parasympatheticnervous system when they come
into the bridge we call it thebridge position.
(33:31):
When they're 18 inches apartand they're going over the
bridge, all of that relaxes andwe now have the third option.
So I say to them when blowingup and shutting down doesn't
work, you need the third option.
And the third option is whereyou meet in the middle, without
all this reactivity.
We work on breath so that theycan go into the parasympathetic
(33:53):
nervous system and once they'recalm we can begin to explore
what this issue is.
Because at home they're infight or flight.
They are expanding their energyhypo-arousing, hyper-arousing
and there's no way to solveanything.
And I don't let them ever, ever, ever do that in my office.
I just don't let that happen,Because I always jokingly say
(34:17):
why pay me all this money?
You can have that fight at homefor free.
Dave Schramm (34:21):
That's right.
Mary Kay Cocharo (34:22):
And they get that.
They don't want to pay me tohave the same fight they're
having at home.
So just learning that you know.
Oh, and then the work is.
Where did you learn to hyperarouse?
When in your childhood was itimportant to get your needs met?
And you learned that the way todo that was to stomp and scream
, because your partner learnedthat the way to get his needs
(34:53):
met was to get quiet and hideunder the bed or in the closet.
So let's talk about whathappened.
What are the experiences ofchildhood that taught you?
Haiti calls them survival suits.
You've pulled on your survivalsuit and now what we've got is
the sound of two suits clanking.
Hartle calls them adaptations.
I think in almost every theorythere's acceptance that these
(35:15):
patterns have been learned inchildhood.
They are the way that wesurvive and we don't.
We don and we're not mad atthose survival suits.
They were useful, very useful.
They helped us to survive, butthey're just not working in this
current relationship and weneed to learn how to take them
off and to deal with one anotheressence to essence, not
(35:38):
survival suit to survival suit,and so even that piece of
neurobiology is important forthem to know, and also the idea
that once they are completelyflipped out and triggered, they
can't sit in the chairs and lookinto each other's eyes.
They don't want to.
That's a good time for a timeout, and so I teach them how to
(35:59):
self-soothe.
A good time for a time out, andso I teach them how to
self-soothe.
If you can't do it with eachother right now, go away for 20
minutes, self-soothe.
Know how to do that.
Get back online so that you'refully able to think and feel at
the same time.
In some theories we would sayyou're back in your window of
tolerance.
That's from trauma therapy.
And now you pull up two chairsand you do it better and
(36:23):
differently.
And they can do it with me.
It's harder to do at homewithout a coach, but the longer
they do it, it's like going tothe gym and working on your
muscles.
Eventually you don't need thedumbbells anymore, you can pick
up the groceries.
That's how I think of it.
So you're coming to my officelike the gym, and when that
(36:44):
relational muscle gets strongenough, you won't need to come
to my office anymore.
You'll have those muscles andyou'll use them at home.
And what I love about couplestherapy is it doesn't take years
.
It takes months.
Liz Hale (36:57):
Especially with the intensive therapy that you do,
Mary Kay, yeah well with theintensive.
Mary Kay Cocharo (37:03):
usually they do one or two follow-ups a month
or two later and then theyfine-tune periodically.
But they really get a lot fromthose full two days.
That's wonderful.
Liz Hale (37:14):
A lot of my sessions go to two, three hours,
occasionally four hours.
I'm a woman after my own heart.
Dave Schramm (37:21):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in um, we're going to jump
ahead.
Liz Hale (37:38):
Maria k and I'd love to what we ask all of our guests
.
This next question in honor ofthe name of our podcast, of
course is what do you believe isthe key to a stronger marriage
connection?
What?
What do you think If you had tochoose one?
Mary Kay Cocharo (38:01):
I think.
Well, I'm going to say one withthree parts.
I think connection really comesfrom touch, affection, sensual,
sexual touch.
So I think that physicalcomponent is very important.
I think communication obviouslysafe, respectful, deep, deep
listening is very important.
(38:21):
And then I think the thirdthing is shared activity.
I think couples need to spendtime together.
They need to find things thatbring them joy and they need to
share in those together.
They need to find things thatbring them joy and they need to
share in those.
And in fact, if I can make ashameless plug for my new card
deck that I created for couples,I put those three suits in the
deck.
So the name of the deck isConnect, Communicate, Create,
(38:44):
and the 15 Connect cards areabout touch and the
communication cards are aboutcommunication and not what to
talk about but how to do it.
And then the third suit iscreate, and that's about
creating interesting and funshared activity.
So I really think it's athree-part thing, and I've seen
(39:05):
too many couples thatcommunicate really well and
don't have sex.
They just have sexlessmarriages even though they seem
emotionally close.
You have to focus on touch, youhave to make that a priority.
I see couples that have greatsex lives but do absolutely
nothing out of the bedroom.
They don't cook together, theydon't go on walks, they don't go
on trips, they just stay homeand have sex.
(39:28):
So I mean, I feel like you haveto have these things working
for it to be a really true deepconnection and for the space to
be nourished to the point whereyou want to stay.
Liz Hale (39:39):
I would love to get another stack of cards like
yours.
Where can listeners find outwhere to get?
Where do we get those cards?
Find out more about what youoffer, your services and other
rich resources you provide, maryKay.
Mary Kay Cocharo (39:53):
Yeah, thank you.
I have a very robust website aswell as Facebook page.
It's wwwmkkacherocom.
There's a media page where youwill eventually have access to
this podcast, but there's a lotof radio talk shows, podcasts,
(40:13):
articles.
There's a YouTube channel.
It's very robust because it'sbeen around for so many years.
It's like a two-bedroom housethat got extensions and other
rooms added on, so there's a lotof information there.
The Card Deck OutConnect,communicate, create um, the card
deck uh, connect, communicate,create actually has its own
(40:35):
website, so it's thatcom.
Uh, it's under construction.
So when you go there now, itsays under construction.
The physical deck is in umproduction right now.
It's being printed and it willbe sold on amazon.
But the virtual deck, theinteractive mobile deck, is on
deckablecom.
Currently you can get theDeckable app for free and you
(41:00):
can go to my deck and get afive-day trial and if you like
it, then you buy it or you usesome of the cards.
It's fun, you can shuffle them,you can find your favorite one
and send it to your.
Dave Schramm (41:09):
Oh, I love it.
Mary Kay Cocharo (41:10):
It's a very interactive kind of thing.
Liz Hale (41:14):
My husband.
He's going to be so excited.
Dave Schramm (41:17):
That's right, Liz.
Liz Hale (41:20):
I have a few stacks of card decks throughout the house
.
I want you to know.
Mary Kay Cocharo (41:23):
And.
Liz Hale (41:23):
I still every now and then.
I still try and play this on.
Mary Kay Cocharo (41:26):
I've got my colleague's deck on my desk, I
kept getting asked to write abook and my thought was we have
so many relationship books andever since COVID, people's
brains just want quicker bits.
You know, like nobody's focusedright now to read a whole
nother book and I thought whatif I take some of what I would
(41:48):
put in a book and make itdigestible in little sound bites
?
Because you can do one card aweek and if you practice that
thing on that card with yourpartner, you're going to be
building connection.
And I think, more importantly,for couples that are in couples
therapy, it gives them kind ofhomework between sessions.
As a lot of my colleagues willsay to me, I created this
(42:10):
beautiful connection in myoffice and it was so lovely and
they came back a week later andthey were back to square one,
because couples don't often knowwhat to do between sessions and
so this gives them an idea ofhow to stay connected.
You can shuffle them and justdo whatever one comes up.
Or, if you know you've got tofocus more on communication,
(42:31):
we've got touchdown or we've gotplenty of activities.
You can pick the suit you like.
So I'm hoping it'll be a veryuseful tool for couples.
Liz Hale (42:38):
Beautiful, I think it will be.
I can't wait to get my hands onit myself.
Dave Schramm (42:42):
Oh yeah, and we'll put those resources.
Oh, go ahead, Mary Kay.
Mary Kay Cocharo (42:47):
Oh, I'm sorry, Dave, I was just going to say
and for therapists, whetheryou're a couples therapist or
not, but you want to learn howto work with couples.
I do have a 12-hour trainingvideo that is for sale on my
website under courses, but it'snice to teach this 12-hour
course and they were verygenerous in recording it and
(43:09):
editing it, so it's nowavailable, as you know, as an
online course.
Liz Hale (43:16):
Amazing, great Good for you.
I love it.
Yeah, and we'll put the linksfor all of us, I should say.
Dave Schramm (43:22):
Yeah, and we'll put links to those for our
listeners.
For the card decks yeah, theinformation on YouTube, even the
resource that she justmentioned about the online
course for therapists.
So our listeners go to the shownotes and you'll find links to
all that information.
Mary Kay, before we let you go,we like to ask all of our
(43:42):
guests another question, andthat is the takeaway.
Is there a take-home message?
We call it a takeaway of theday.
Do you hope our listeners willremember from our discussion
today?
Mary Kay Cocharo (43:52):
the day that you hope our listeners will
remember from our discussiontoday.
Yeah, I mean, for me, the thingthat's always the most
important is to focus on thedynamic in the space between,
because if you are convincedthat the problem with your
relationship is your partner,you're powerless, you don't have
any ability to change anotherperson.
But if you can say, when thishappens, I feel this and I
(44:15):
really want you to understandthat about me and understand the
importance kind of like thewoman with the dog the space be
healed and the relationshipimproves.
So, rather than blaming eachother, remember to look at
what's going on between the twoof you rather than what's inside
your partner.
Dave Schramm (44:36):
Love that.
Yeah, Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway of the day?
Liz Hale (44:39):
I just remember seeing that same thing from Harville
Hendricks, mary Kay, about thespace between right.
And my takeaway, dave and MaryKay, today is this feeling I
have right now reminds me of dotdot dot.
I think it's brilliant, I loveit, dave.
What about you, my friend?
What's the richest nuggetyou're taking away today with
our time with Mary Kay Cacharo?
(45:01):
I love her name, mary KayCacharo.
Dave Schramm (45:03):
I love that too, Liz, and I'm not familiar with
Imago before this.
So all of this, I'm just tryingto keep up and soak all of this
in.
I love some of the practicalthings that I can start working
on right now.
Mary Kay, I think you mentionedthe 18 inch.
Yeah, I think you called it.
The bridge right Is there, Idon't know if I call it.
The time Is that like a 30seconds or this is three hours
(45:26):
or what type of it you?
Mary Kay Cocharo (45:27):
know, staring in my wife's.
I'm going to see if she'll doit.
You mentioned that, dave.
First of all, use the word gazeLike think about staring versus
gazing.
You know gazing is a soft,connected sort of look where I
think staring.
I remember as children we'dhave stare downs.
You know that were kind of hard.
You know there is a lot ofresearch.
(45:49):
If you look at 18-inch eye gazeand the brain, it's called a
brain bridge or limbic resonance.
The research was like with fourminutes and there was like
people looking into each other'seyes who weren't lovers or
sometimes didn't even know eachother, but they would have this
(46:09):
deep connection through the eyegaze and some percentage of them
fell in love with looking ateach other.
But they would have this deepconnection through the eye gaze
and some percentage of them fellin love with looking at each
other.
It's crazy.
It's like you know they say thewindows are the eyes of the
soul.
You know, to the soul and Ithink that's absolutely true.
So sometimes when couples can'tquite get out of their fight
(46:29):
mode at home in between sessionsI will have them.
I say, just if this happens,forget the words.
Words are not your friends.
Harville says the mostdangerous thing you ever do is
talk.
Talking is the most dangerousthing we do, but if you just
pull those chairs together andgaze into each other's eyes, you
will feel the connectionhappening and suddenly you feel
(46:52):
kind of less angry at yourpartner and you know the issues
there and you will get to itwhen you can.
You maybe have to save it forthe therapy office, but the gaze
.
Just try it with your partnersand see how you feel.
Dave Schramm (47:05):
Yeah, I love that Very practical, very simple that
I can do.
Mary Kay Cocharo (47:09):
I'm going to, I'm gonna try that today and you
know, dave, we got researchcame from was research on
mothers breastfeeding babies.
18 inches is a distance betweenthe parent's eyes and child's
eyes when you feed, whetheryou're the dad with a bottle or
the mom breastfeeding, whateverso that 18 inches develops the
(47:30):
baby's brain.
Without eye gaze, we havefailure to thrive.
Children cannot grow withouteye gaze.
The brain doesn't grow withouteye gaze.
You know, when you're in thesupermarket and the baby in the
stroller behind you is goinglike this, trying to catch your
eyes, oh yeah, they neatly nowthey need eye gaze.
They need eye gaze Because wehave neuroplasticity, which, for
(47:56):
the listeners, means our brainscan change until the day we die
.
Our brains are plastic.
We can mold them and changethem.
When you gaze into yourpartner's eyes, you're actually
changing the neural pathways ineach other's brains, so it
really is transformational inthat way.
Liz Hale (48:13):
That is unusually close, isn't it?
Mary Kay Cocharo (48:17):
Right, I mean uncomfortable proximity, Liz.
Liz Hale (48:21):
That is something I could see how it could be very
powerful.
All right, Dave, return andreport.
Okay, you go first.
Dave Schramm (48:27):
Yeah, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna go do that.
This is interesting.
Mary Kate and I had heard aboutthe baby and the parent gaze.
I just hadn't translated thatover, and that's why I plead
with parents please get off yourphone and screens and look at
your baby's eyes, because it'snot just magic happening.
There's real, actually brainchanges happening, right.
Mary Kay Cocharo (48:49):
A hundred percent and I mean we could have
a whole another hour talkingabout the way that technology
has really impactedrelationships.
And I know there are some goodthings about, you know, staying
connected digitally and all ofthat.
But when I get these youngcouples in and they're having
their fights on text, theirfights on text I have to say you
(49:11):
know, words are 7% ofcommunication.
You are missing so much of whoyour partner is when you're only
talking on text.
It's a whole new world.
Dave Schramm (49:27):
Yeah, it really is .
All kinds of distractions.
Well, Mary Kay, you've beenvery generous with your time and
the wisdom that you have sharedwith us today.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Mary Kay Cocharo (49:36):
Well, thank you, it's just been so fun to be
with the two of you.
I really appreciate it.
Liz Hale (49:41):
Back at you, mary Kay.
Dave Schramm (49:42):
Yes, yeah Well, friends, that does it for us.
We'll see you next time.
Another episode of the StrongerMarriage Connection podcast.
Liz Hale (49:49):
That's right, and remember it's the small and
simple things that create astronger marriage connection.
Take care now.
Bye-bye.
Dave Schramm (49:59):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(50:20):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, If you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(50:41):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, Rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(51:04):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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