Transforming Conflict Into Connection and Radical Forgiveness | Chad Ford | #138

Chad Ford returns to share powerful insights from his new book 70x7, exploring how fear drives conflict and how radical forgiveness can transform our marriages and relationships. His work as an international conflict mediator brings unique perspectives on moving from destructive to constructive conflict patterns.

• Understanding that conflict is natural and inevitable in marriage—the goal isn't eliminating conflict but handling it well
• Recognizing common conflict styles: avoidance (burying issues), accommodation (always giving in), and competition (needing to win)
• Practicing the "risk of embrace"—opening arms in invitation, waiting, embracing, and gracefully letting go
• Moving beyond "forgive and forget" to true reconciliation through truth, forgiveness, justice, and assurance of change
• "Rolling away stones"—choosing to give partners what they need rather than what we think they deserve
• Transforming complaints into invitations for deeper connection
• Starting "close in" by practicing conflict transformation skills at home before tackling larger societal conflicts

Visit DangerousLoveBook.com or ChadFord.Substack.com to sign up for free conflict transformation resources, including conflict style assessments and articles on healthy boundaries.

Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways:

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Dr. Dave Schramm:

http://drdaveschramm.com

http://drdavespeaks.com

Dr. Liz Hale:

http://www.drlizhale.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
On today's episode, we welcome Chad Ford back to the
show and we dive into theprinciples found in his new book
70x7.
From conflict styles and fearto radical forgiveness and
rolling away stones, chad sharesprinciples, tips and stories
that will touch your heart, liftyou up and change your mind.
Heart, lift you up and changeyour mind.
Chad Ford is an internationalconflict mediator, facilitator

(00:27):
and peace educator with over twodecades of experience in
conflict zones worldwide.
While known for his ESPNbasketball analysis, his true
passion is peace building.
After completing degrees fromGeorge Mason in Georgetown, he
spent nearly 20 years directingBYU Hawaii's Peacebuilding
Program before joining UtahState University in 2024.

(00:48):
Author of Dangerous Love and70x7, chad brings unique
insights from working withdiverse groups, from families to
governments, transformingconflict into peace through his
Christian-informed approach.
We hope you enjoy the show.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection.
I'm Dr Liz Hale, along with thebeloved professor, dr Dave
Schramm.
Together, we have dedicated ourlife's work to bringing you the
best we have in valid maritalresearch, along with a few tips
and tools to help you create themarriage of your dreams.
All right, well, dave.
I'm so pleased to have ChadFord back.
He's the author of DangerousLove, transforming Fear and

(01:33):
Conflict at Home, at Work and inthe World, and he's back today
by popular demand.
He is a peacemaker and aconflict transformer who stands
boldly in the face of fear inhis work as a mediator and now
professor at Utah StateUniversity.
Well, today Chad is joining usto take a deep dive into his
brand new book read hot off thepress, 70 Times 7, based on

(01:56):
conflict transformation.
Welcome back to StrongerMarriage Connection, dear Chad
Ford.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
It's a pleasure to be back and really deeply
appreciate the work that you doright.
So much of our conflict startsright in the closest
relationships to us.
Yeah, right at home.
Oh true.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well, we're so glad to have you and you are really
everywhere.
I have the pleasure of being onyour Waymaker email list and
can follow you like the true fanthat I am.
So I love that, Judd, I'd lovefor you to share.
Let's start right there, if youdon't mind the meaning of
Waymaker, just to give a smallhint about this group and your
current mission.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
Yeah, so I do a lot of different conflict practices.
Sometimes I'm a conflict coach,sometimes I'm working as a
mediator between two partiesthat are in conflict.
Sometimes I'm working with muchlarger groups and really do
what I call conflictfacilitation.
But the thing that I think allthree of those things have in
common is that when people feelstuck in conflict, when they

(02:57):
feel like they don't have anyalternatives, when they feel
like conflict is happening tothem but they don't really have
any way to navigate through it,that's the sort of work that I
do.
I help people who feel likeconflict is happening to them
but they don't really have anyway to navigate through it.
That's the sort of work that Ido, right?
I help people who feel likethere's no way find a way, and
it's hard work.
They are going to have to walkwhatever path that is, and so we

(03:18):
try to make the way for otherpeople to be able to walk when
they feel stuck in conflict.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
I just love that.
So you make a way out of no way, right?
Yeah, I think that's way cool.
Had you heard that before, dave.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
No no.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
It's weighing out.
Of no way it's an old Irishproverb.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
So I can't say that I came up, came up with it myself
, but as a as a as someone whocomes from Ireland and my
ancestors come from Ireland Ialways love pulling in Irish
proverbs whenever I can.
I love it, especially that one.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's yours now, chad.
It's yours now, chad.
Liz and I are Ford fans.
I guess you could call us.
We love your great work thatyou've done in both books.
You say, chad, that conflict isrooted in fear.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
So tell us where and how does fear most commonly show
up in marriage?
Well, I think that it shows upin a couple of ways, and one of
the first ways we can thinkabout it is our conflict styles
that we bring to a marriage, andthere's several styles that I
think are deeply rooted in fear.
The first, and by far the mostpredominant, is conflict
avoidance.
Right, I just am going to avoidconflict at all costs if I can,
and I think a lot of peoplecarry with that, this feeling

(04:31):
that if I'm experiencingconflict in my marriage,
something is wrong, right,something is wrong with me.
Maybe I chose the wrong partner, maybe I'm the wrong partner
for someone else partner, maybeI'm the wrong partner for
someone else.
Instead of seeing conflict assomething that's natural that,
of course, is going to occur inany relationship, but especially
one as intimate as marriage,where two people are trying to

(04:54):
blend their lives together,conflict is the most natural
thing in the world.
In fact, dr John Gottman hasshown that when couples aren't
arguing you know, dr JohnGottman has shown that when
couples aren't arguing right,when there isn't a conflict,
that is a significant red flagthat things are actually going
south, and so I think, for a lotof couples especially, there's

(05:16):
this feeling of I want to get tothis place in our marriage
where we don't have conflictanymore, when I actually think
the right way to think about itis I want to get to a place in
my marriage where I do conflictwell with my partner right, but
because I'm fearing conflictavoidance is far from doing
conflict well, right, it'sburying it until there's so much

(05:37):
resentment and so much, I think, this sense of frustration with
my partner in the marriage thatthen, when it does bubble up to
the surface, it becomesdestructive conflict and
conflict that harms and destroysmarriages.
That's the most obvious waywhere I think fear just shows up

(06:00):
.
Right, Is that we're just theone that we don't talk about it,
we don't discuss it, we pretendit's not there, we hope it goes
away, but we don't actuallyactively step into it.
But I think there's a couple ofother ways that it shows up in
marriage that they don't looklike fear, but I actually think
that fear is driving them.
One is conflict accommodation,right, where what I do, what I

(06:21):
think the right thing to do in amarriage, is just to give in to
my partner Every time there's adisagreement, every time you
and I don't see eye to eye.
What I'm supposed to do as agood partner is look at you and
say, okay, whatever you want, ifit's important to you, then
it's important to me, and thissort of selflessness.
But I actually find that mostof the time it's not very

(06:42):
selflessness.
It's actually quite selfish,because what it's saying is I
think that you liking me is themost important thing, and the
way that you like me is by medoing whatever it is that you
expect me or want me to do.
And so it comes with this deepfear that you won't like me if I

(07:02):
bring my needs, if I bring myconcerns, if I bring my desires
or wants to the marriage, thatyou won't like me.
If I bring my needs, if I bringmy concerns, if I bring my
desires or wants to the marriage, that you won't like me anymore
.
And so I'm going to accommodate, to be loved.
And then competition, where Ifeel like if you get what you
want, it's going to destroy whatit is that I want, and so I
need to win every conflict in amarriage.

(07:23):
I actually think this isconflict in a marriage.
I actually think this is alsodriven by fear, the fear of if
something doesn't go my way,it's going to somehow be
destructive to the relationship.
Or maybe it means that I'm notright in the relationship and so
I'm actively out pursuingwinning in marriage instead of
collaborating, and so I thinkthat fear.
It doesn't look the same inevery marriage, right, but I

(07:45):
think that the underlying thingthat is driving this in each of
those cases is a fear ofconflict and the fear of somehow
not getting what it is that Iwant or need.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, man, Well said Chad.
So I'm curious then, what's thebest way for partners to
address these fears with eachother?

Speaker 3 (08:04):
Well, I think one.
There's conflict styles tests.
We have one on my website atdangerouslovebookcom, but
there's many that you can getout there.
I think it's helpful at firstto actually understand what it
is that's going on.
And when you take these tests,I think it's actually really
important that you think aboutyour partner when you're taking
this test.

(08:24):
There's general conflict stylesthat we have, but then there
are unique ones that we have, inparticular, relationships to
people, and it's most helpful ifI'm thinking about, in a
marriage, my partner, when I amtaking this test.
And then I have to ask myselfokay, why am I here?
Why is this the style that Ifind myself using?
And then I ask a couple ofquestions of my clients.

(08:51):
One is it working?
I already know the answer ifthey've hired me, if they've
hired me as a conflict mediator,the answer is no, but I still
ask the question.
I think it's really important.
You're doing this style.
You're following a patternagain and again, there's a
reason behind it.
So let me ask you following apattern, again and again,
there's a reason behind it.
So let me ask you is it working?
And usually I'll get the honestanswer no, it's not.

(09:13):
Okay, it's not working, thenwhy are you doing it?
And a lot of times there's along history of that.
We learn our conflict stylestypically from our parents.
We learn it from pastrelationships.
If conflict has felt dangerousor scary to us in the past, we
find ways of coping with it ornavigating it in a way to try to
avoid fear or pain in thefuture.
So what's going on?
Is it actually working?

(09:34):
And if it's not working, am Iwilling to try something
different?
And often where people go issometimes in an opposite
direction.
That isn't any more helpful,right?
So if I've been competitive,okay, I get it.
What I just need to do is justalways say yes, always give in.
I just need to accommodate.
That's what I need to do, and Ithink that part of my job as a

(09:55):
conflict mediator or a coach orwhat have you is educating
people about how to do goodcollaboration, and I just feel
like we talk a lot aboutcollaboration.
It's a mantra that's used inorganizations, but when it comes
to actual training where I'vebeen trained on how to
collaboratively problem solvewith another person most of the

(10:18):
people that I encounter theyjust don't have that skill set.
They want to do that, they'reopen to it.
They just don't really know how, and because they don't know
how, it gets frustrating reallyquickly and then they revert
back to whatever style is mostcomfortable for them.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
So I love that, chad.
So first, discovering what's myconflict style?
And there's tests, there'sthings on your website asking
yourself is this workingProbably not?
Website asking yourself is thisworking Probably not?
And now, what can I do about it?
Humility, this authenticity,approach to being open, to be
like, okay, I can do thingsdifferent, I can see things

(10:55):
differently.
Am I open to doing it?
Man, I love it.
Love, love, love.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, and one other thing I'd add, dr Dave, is an
acceptance that I just have tohave that the goal isn't a
conflict-free marriage.
I have to accept to a certainextent that marriage and
conflict go hand in hand.
If I want to be married tosomeone, especially someone who

(11:18):
is not a clone of myself, then Iam going to be experiencing
conflict, and I think it's thatdialectic of acceptance about
certain things.
Conflict is inevitable, it'sgoing to be happening in our
marriage and there are thingsthat I can change that improve
the quality of the conflict andmove it from destructive to

(11:39):
constructive.
It's those two things hand inhand, right?

Speaker 1 (11:43):
It's an acceptance of the conflict and a willingness
to change the dynamics toimprove it I just think that
word chad, that acceptance, forour listeners right now are
thinking, okay, my marriage isnot off the rails.
If there's, you know where wehave this conflict.
It's called normal right.
It means maybe if we're stuckin different patterns, but man

(12:03):
conflict, any two people aregoing to have differences, it's
going to lead to conflict.
So I love that acceptance.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
From destructive to instructive.
Did I get that right?
Constructive, constructive,there we go.
Constructive, I knew thatwasn't quite right.
Right, instructive probablyhelps too, but constructive I
like even better.
So how does this way we handleconflict at home, so both in
marriage and with children, as afamily in general?
How does that affect, you thinkChad, our broader ability to

(12:32):
deal with conflict, even as asociety?

Speaker 3 (12:36):
Well, I think it all starts in the home, and when I
work with organizations, or evenwhen I work in socio-political
conflicts which I do a lot ofit's always relational.
Conflict is always relational.
Every story that I've heardabout conflicting from political
leaders, from governmentleaders, from social leaders,

(12:58):
from religious leaders it comesback to there's been a breach,
there's been a relational breach, comes back to there's been a
breach.
There's been a relationalbreach, there's been an
expectation about how arelationship should go, and
typically I'm blaming the otherperson for the breach.
Let's just be honest, that'smost of our conflict narratives
and someone else has breachedthat expectation in a way that's

(13:20):
been really painful for me.
It's hurt me, and because it'shurt me, I expect them to repair
the breach.
And when they repair the breach, then there can be some level
of reconciliation.
But you know, if you think aboutthat pattern, it's you can see
why we don't get very far inconflict.
Right, because, because there'sbeen a breach and I blame that

(13:42):
breach on you, conflict ishappening to me.
I'm not involved in a patternof conflict, it is something
that's happened to me.
Therefore, all the blame lieswith you and all of the changing
that needs to happen also lieswith you, and I'm going to sit
here and patiently orimpatiently wait for that to
change, wait for that to change.

(14:06):
And that's where we get thesenarratives of real helplessness
in marriage because my husband Iknow my husband needs to change
, or I know my wife needs tochange and here's the list of
all the things they need tochange.
But they won't.
And because they won't, theycontinue to hurt me and do
damage.
And the more that I press themto change, the more that I blame
them, the more that I push andpush and push, they seem to dig
in and resist back.

(14:26):
It's almost like the more thatI complain to them, the more
they double down on the verythoughts and behaviors that are
causing the conflict in thefirst place.
And I think it's a deepmisunderstanding of human nature
, including our own, because weall know that when we feel
blamed, when other people takethemselves out of a conflict
pattern and put it completely onus, our natural response is to

(14:49):
be defensive, to dig in, topoint out the other things that
they're doing that also arecontributing to the conflict,
which they don't like.
And then the conflict escalatesright away, right away.
And I don't really see a hugedifference between what's going
on in marriages, what's going onin parenting, to what's

(15:12):
happening in our communities,what's happening with us
politically in the world, and welack those tools at all of
those levels.
But what I tell people a lotwhen I'm working with them, even
in the socio-political systems,is try it at home first.
Start close in Start with thething that you have the most
control over.
Right now, very few people havecontrol over the

(15:32):
socio-political climate thatexists in our country today.
I actually think there arethings people can do, but it's
like PhD level conflict workright, but the thing that I can
do as a parent with a teenageror the thing that I could do
with my spouse, those are thethings that are close in, where
I start to practice these skills.
And because conflict isinevitable and I would argue it

(15:54):
happens every day, it's just notalways destructive I can get a
lot of practice in doing thiswell and then that will serve me
well in the organizations thatI work for or in other spots
like that.
But if we don't get it right athome, I find it really hard to
be able to do it well anywhereelse.

(16:15):
So we start close in.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
I'm curious, chad, if there's one principle right,
you had 10 minutes, me, you have30 minutes, or whatever.
If you have one principle tosit down and talk with couples
about conflict, transformation,everything that you've learned,
what would it be?

Speaker 3 (16:34):
Yeah, it's hard to say that.
There's one.
I've tried to distill it downto four that I'll talk about
briefly.
That I'll talk about briefly.
One is seeing people as people.
Or in my new book I talk aboutit from a scriptural reference
of loving your enemies.
Right, I have to look at thisperson that I'm in conflict with

(16:55):
and see their humanity.
I can't be angry with peoplejust because there's conflict,
just because they don't see theworld the same way that I see
them.
I have to look with eyes ofcompassion towards people that
are struggling, that aremisbehaving.
I have to be curious about whythey're talking or acting that

(17:15):
way, why they're making thechoices that they're making
right now.
I need to seek to try tounderstand what is beneath those
behaviors and actions and Ihave to give a certain level of
empathy or grace to they alsoare trying to navigate the world
the best way that they know how.
Now, that doesn't change thefact that we have conflict and

(17:37):
it doesn't mean that there'sless work for us to do.
But I think when I'mapproaching a person that I'm in
conflict with with a bit ofcompassion, with a bit of
empathy, and saying this isn'tgoing well and I suspect it's
also not going well for you.
This is really frustrating tome, but I suspect it's also
frustrating for you.
I have some things in my pastthat are being triggered right

(18:00):
now by this conversation, but Isuspect you have a story as well
right now.
I've lashed out today, but youknow what?
I skipped breakfast and lunch.
I was so busy and I'm hangryright now.
But you also have a story.
I haven't been around you allday.
I don't actually know what'sgoing on.
Right, I'm going to take thatdeep breath.

(18:20):
That starts a reverse of acycle where destructive conflict
typically requires a level ofdehumanization and blame, where
I am deeply intolerant of whatthe other person is thinking or
saying, and it opens me up, Ithink, in a really powerful way.

(18:41):
The second thing I say is thatwe practice inside-outside
transformation.
We don't throw stones right.
Throwing stones at our partnersbeget more stones when we have
blame.
That we feel like I need toconfront this to you.
I need to show you how bad youare.
And I throw that stone.

(19:01):
It wounds other people, they getdefensive and they have their
own stones that they've beencarrying around with them,
waiting to toss them back, andI'm always surprised.
Couples are always surprisedwhen they're like, okay, I'm in
mediation, I finally get to sayeverything that I want to say to
my partner right now.
And then they're shocked whenthey have a response back that
says well, let me tell you a fewthings that aren't working for

(19:23):
me.
They're like wait, wait, wait,wait, don't look at me.
Wait, this isn't supposed to behappening in the media issue
right now.
Right, this is my time tobombard this person with stones
right now, and I don't expectthem back.
And I think human nature isthat they're going to come back.
And so how do we roll away thosethings?
Right?
How do we find ways to callpeople in instead of call people

(19:47):
out?
Right?
How do I call you into therelationship and say this
behavior is hurting us?
And because it's hurting us andbecause I care about us and
because I care about ourrelationship going forward, how
can we work on this so that westrengthen our relationship
instead of how do I condemn youbecause of the things that

(20:07):
you're doing that are weakeningthat?
And I just found that peoplerespond to that so much better,
because it starts with a signalof actually, what I want is
better relationship with you andthe reason that we're having
this hard conversation today isbecause what I want is for us to
be stronger, but when we'rethrowing stones, I think what

(20:28):
happens on the other side is itfeels like what you want is to
hurt me or punish me or call meout, push me out of the
relationship, somehow single meout in ways that aren't going to
make me feel disconnected.
To me, the hardest step though,those are both hard, but to me
the hardest step is I see, invirtually every conflict in

(20:50):
marriage, maybe the best, whichis I'm willing to make some
changes.
When they make some changesfirst, I'm willing to do this or
this or this, but first youneed to assure me that you're
going to do this, this and this,and then afterwards I'll
reciprocate.
And I find that in mostmarriages that's happening.
On both sides there's been abreach of trust, and because

(21:13):
there's been a breach of trust,the other party feels like the
only way to rebuild trust is foryou to go first, right, and to
repair that trust.
And once you repair it, then Ican start working on coming
closer.
And so we get stuck in thesepatterns of I'm insisting that
the other person go first, andso I call this the risk of

(21:35):
embrace in my new book, butwho's going to be the first
person to open up our arms andsignal to the other person?
I'm willing to make somechanges here that I think will
improve the relationship.
These are the things that I seethat I could do that could be
helpful to you, and so one ofthe patterns that I follow in

(21:58):
this sort of problem-solvingpart of conflict is, instead of
asking people, what is it?
Okay, now tell me what you needfrom the other person, after
we've had this long conversation, is to actually ask people what
did you hear from your partnerabout what they need?
Can you think of three thingsjust over the course of our
conversations that you've heardfrom your partner that you need

(22:19):
Now?
Could you pick one of thosethings and offer it to your
partner?
Do you think you could justpick one of them right now and
offer it?
And then I asked the partnerwould that be helpful if they
offered that to you?
And if they say yes, then whatwould it look like specifically
to make that happen?
If I say I need more respectaround the home, what does

(22:42):
respect look like specifically,and how would I know that I was
actually showing you morerespect in the home?
What does respect look likespecifically?
And how would I know that I wasactually showing you more
respect in the home?
What specifically would thatlook like?
And so we're starting thatprocess of collaboration where
we're willing to go first tooffer something that often is
powerfully invitational for theother person, and then finally,

(23:05):
especially in marriage, of allthe sort of places.
Right, we're not practicingconflict management, we're not
just practicing conflictresolution, we're practicing
reconciliation.
This is about transforming ourrelationship.
This is not just about problemsolving.
It's transforming ourrelationship in such a way that
any problem that comes our way,we're going to be able to

(23:26):
navigate it together on in aneffective way.
And what we're actually doingin this whole process is
strengthening the relationshipso that we can navigate those
relationships more effectivelyit was so powerful.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
I just want to kind of do the the brief, the four
steps.
Okay, dear ch, dear Chad.
So the first one was reallyseeing people's humanity right,
loving our enemies.
And then two, what was two?
Please, in the short, don'tthrow stones.
Yeah, oh, that was, don't throwstones.
I had that as three, okay, andthen three, three was the risk
of embrace.
Risk of embrace Love that.
And then the four is thereconciliation.

(24:03):
Yeah, practice reconciliation.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in I love that.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
You know.
In 70 times 7 you explore thepower of forgiveness and healing
some pretty deep wounds.
Can we use those principles ofmarriage across the board for
the, the small, the medium andand the deep loans?

Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah, you know it's interesting when people talk
about forgiveness.
I see it as a stack ofreconciliation.
I don't see it as the end-alland be-all, because I think

(25:01):
there are other things that haveto be attached to
reconciliation, not justforgiveness, because I've seen
forgiveness really misused inways that allow for bad behavior
to continue, allow for peopleto continue to suffer from abuse
.
Because we follow this idea ofwell, we're supposed to forgive
everyone.
But I actually think, when youlook at this whether you're
looking at it both from anacademic standpoint or you're
looking at it both from anacademic standpoint or you're
looking at it from a religiousstandpoint that there's four
factors that are kind of cominginto reconciliation.

(25:22):
Truth I'm honestly beingaccountable for my actions,
thoughts and behaviors.
I how difficult is it toforgive someone when they refuse
to take accountability, whenthey refuse to even talk about
the things that are happening?
Right, and so often you'll hearthis well, you should forgive,

(25:45):
but I shouldn't confess, Ishouldn't be open about what it
is that I might have beencontributing to the conflict.
Forgiveness is one of them.
Justice is another one.
If someone has been hurt aspart of this conflict, how do I
make them whole?
I'm not interested at all inthe justice that destroys or

(26:08):
punishes, but I am reallyinterested in the justice that
makes people whole, right.
And if the conflict has carveda significant wound in my life
and I don't want to address itanymore, let's just forgive and
forget.
The wound, in my opinion, stillfesters on there.
And so how do I actually goabout making this right, the

(26:33):
wrong that I've made?
And then, finally, the laststep is how do I give us
confidence that this isn't goingto happen again?
And I'm not talking aboutconflict Conflict for sure, is
going to happen again but I'mtalking about destructive
conflict or serious breaches ofthe marital relationship.
What am I going to work on?

(26:54):
How can I show you and give youconfidence, liz, that these
behaviors that I've engaged inin the past, I am actively
working on making changes, I'mgoing to therapy, right, I'm
going to counseling, whatever itis to show you and to give you
confidence and trust that Irecognize that repeating these

(27:16):
mistakes again and again andagain in marriage will continue
us down the path of destruction.
And so I think that they all gotogether right, and they're all
things that we offer people inconflict.
They're not just things that weexpect from others, but they're
things that we offer.
We offer truth withoutjustification.

(27:37):
We offer a sense, offer truthwithout justification.
We offer a sense ofaccountability without blame.
We forgive people when theycome asking for forgiveness.
And when I say forgiveness I sayI'm going to remove that
barrier that I put in place,that sort of protective barrier
right that has kept us from eachother.
Now Forgiveness means I'mmoving that away.

(27:57):
I'm not bringing it up everytime that you come a step near
to me.
Oh, remember when, right hereit is again.
I'm seeking to make sure thatwhatever damage I did in the
conflict, I do whatever I canand sometimes I recognize it's
not easy to make you whole andI'm going to keep working on

(28:17):
myself and be very open to thattowards you so that you see that
I'm committed to thisrelationship and part of my
commitment to it is that I'mgoing to continue to work on
myself so I can be the bestpartner I can be to you.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, it's just so rich.
There's a part of me, I have tobe honest, that would just
really love to forgive andforget.
Let's just let bygones bebygones, you know what I mean.
Let's just kind of go along ourway and you're suggesting that
I really have to right thewrongs.
I really have to understandfrom that person's perspective.
Wait a minute, where was Iwrong here?
In your eyes, I probably have ablind spot to it.

(28:53):
Yeah, I'm kind of like um,what's the word?
Kind of coward, cowardly when Ijust want to do let's just
forgive and forget, move on.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
I find when that happens, the conflict tends to
reappear.
I can imagine, right, I know,as therapists, you know that the
right strategy isn't to bury it, right, whatever, whatever's
going on, right and and you knowI'm really good at that and I
was kind of taught that as ayoung person right, like when
you have a problem, just bury it, bury it deep inside you, right

(29:26):
, and I've done a lot of diggingand a lot of burying it by life
and I've noticed, even in myown life, it finds its way up.
No matter how deep I bury it,it finds its way up.
No matter how deep I bury it,it keeps crawling back to the
surface.
And I use sometimes thisanalogy, I call it the grocery

(29:47):
store analogy.
If you think that you've movedon, let's say you've cut
somebody off, you've createdthese really strong boundaries,
I'm done with it.
And you run into them in agrocery store three years later
and it's the first time you'veseen them in three years Can you
walk up to them, can youembrace them, can you say, hey,
it's great to see you, and moveon.

(30:08):
Or you feel suddenly, with allof that conflict again, does all
of it just come bursting backout and you do everything
possible to avoid seeing orinteracting with that person.
And if it's the latter, all ittells me is you've carried it,
you didn't forget at all, right,you just carried it with you
for three years and there's somuch that you've carried with

(30:31):
you that is probably infected,the way that you are in
relationship with lots of otherpeople that's been completely
invisible to you, and so that'show I know.
Right, if we've really openedour hand up and let go, is that,
if I've really reconciled witha person, even if it was our
choice to not be in the samerelationship anymore or to not

(30:52):
interact with each other in theways that we've done before, I
should be able to embrace themin the grocery store, ask them a
little bit about their familyand how they're doing, and be
able to move on and not need toinstantly call my therapist and
say I'm having a panic attackright now.
I just ran into Dave at thegrocery store.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, I love that.
What did you call that embrace?
What's that embrace called?

Speaker 3 (31:13):
The risk of embrace the risk, yeah, I love that, I
love a risk of embrace the risk.
I love that, I love the risk.
That concept comes from a guynamed maris lump wolf who was a
theologian who was writingduring the bosnian war, uh, and
looking at what was happeningwith the serbians and, uh, the
bosnians, uh, during, uh, really, what was a a very brutal
ethnic um war and and he'strying to rectify that many of

(31:37):
these folks are Christians kindof going after each other in
this way.
And how do we think abouttaking that risk of embrace with
our enemy?
And I always find it sofascinating his approaches
because you think embrace iseasy.
But he's like there's reallyfour steps to embrace.
I'd never really thought aboutthis before.
Right, like breaking down, likewhat an embrace does.

(31:58):
But it starts with someonegesturing to the other person,
like opening up their arms,opening up their hands to the
other person, inviting embrace,right, you watch, even in your
social cues or signals someonewill signal to the other person
an embrace is coming, right.
The second part I think isreally fascinating and that can

(32:19):
be scary, especially if I'm inconflict.
I don't know whether the otherperson is going to step into
that embrace.
I don't know if they're goingto punch me in the face.
I don't really know what'sgoing to happen.
But he says the second step andI never really thought about
this before is that we actuallywait.
We don't just collapse intosomeone else's space and grab
them.
We wait for them to take thestep into the embrace.

(32:41):
Right, I signal to you that I'mopen and then you signal back
whether you are open or not andyou signal that back by either
stepping into that embrace oryou don't.
I've got teenagers right nowand we're teaching them about
consent, as they're starting todate, and we're teaching about
reading body language and notjust verbal language and how

(33:03):
important it is.
Because those moments that aredeeply intimate, that are deeply
vulnerable for us when I signalto someone else like hey, I
think I would like to hug you orI would like to hold your hand
or I would like a kiss arereally vulnerable moments.

(33:24):
But they're vulnerable for bothparties and the other party
just might not be there yet andyou have to be so alive to that
and be patient and not push thatand give them space to walk in.
And a lot of times I know I'mgung-ho in conflict resolution.
I want to charge in, I want togive the flying squirrel hug,
and I just know that once we'relike this, you're going to feel
great.
And instead of giving the otherperson the space to walk in,

(33:47):
then the embrace part is easyright.
We close our arms around eachother and we embrace.
But then I love the fourth steptoo, which is that I let go and
let them step out of space.
Step two, which is that I letgo and let them step out of
space.
I have enough trust for youthat I don't need to cling to
you with all of my might andnever let you go.
It actually shows that I don'ttrust you.
When I do that, I'm afraid thatthis embrace is going to end

(34:11):
and it might not happen again.
I show some trust and respectby opening my arms back up and
saying you know you're free tocome whenever you want, but I'm
not going to trap you now in thebricks Now that I've got you
right.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
Yeah, that's perfect.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Unless you're my wife and she's hugging one of our
teenagers so that she doesn'tlet go when they're trying to
escape, right?

Speaker 3 (34:33):
Well, that's where I experience the most, right, like
I mean he's writing about, likeBosnian and Serbians, but where
I really experienced that iswith teenagers, right, because
there's this weird moment thatmany teenagers hit where they
don't want their parents totouch them anymore.
They don't want physical touch.
They think it's weird and it'sso hurtful as a parent, right,

(34:55):
it's so like I just, and theyneed it.
It's so hurtful as a parent,right, it's so like I just, and
they need it.
You know they need it, you knowthey need embrace, but they
don't know they need it.
And whenever they do it, we gooverboard too much, right, and
then we overdo it and freak themout.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
They don't want to do it again.
Oh, I don't think that'sexactly right.
Oh, man, unpacking forgivenessa little bit more.
Going back to some of that, I'mcurious.
You've written about radicalforgiveness.
I'm curious what does that looklike for a spouse to practice
that kind of forgiveness in theface of betrayal or this
long-standing hurt?

(35:31):
Can you walk us through radicalforgiveness idea?

Speaker 3 (35:35):
Well, I think to me that the radical part of
forgiveness is from my end notfrom what I'm expecting from
other people, but from my end.
You're going to get forgivenessno matter what, and when I say
that, what I mean is you canexpect that in my relationship.
That is part of what I'm goingto give in the relationship, and

(35:58):
what I mean by it is that I amnot going to cut off our
relationship just because you'vedone or said something hurtful.
I may need to change the natureof the relationship.
I'm right.
The relationship itself mayneed to change for safety
reasons, for example, that wemay have to change the nature of

(36:18):
it.
But what we're not in risk ofis you being excommunicated from
my life, of you being cut offfrom that.
I will continue to seekrelationship with you.
We may have to redefine it.
We may have to put someboundaries on it, but not
boundaries to punish or to keepus away, but boundaries that

(36:39):
help the relationship go rightin ways that maybe it didn't go
right in the future.
But what you can expect from meis that there will be a
continued commitment to us, andI think that that opens up so
much vulnerability on the otherside.

(37:00):
I think that's what invitesactual truth.
We think about like forinfidelity for a reason why
don't couples?
Why do they hide it?
And their fear is right thatwhen I, it's going to hurt the
other person.
But I even think their biggerfear is that it is going to end
us in ways that I don't want usto end.
And I think that there are waysto create the space where, yeah

(37:26):
, it may affect us, it maychange something about us,
depending on what that behavioris.
But what I'm really interestedin doing is finding a way to
create the best us going forward.
And I think that all of us fearthat, that our partners maybe

(37:46):
don't want that, that they'renot that invested radically in
the relationship, that this is arelationship that I'm committed
to and ongoing.
And so when I've made a breachand like I find couples lying to
each other over much, much lessthan infidelity, right, like
they're keeping so many thingsfrom there, and every time
what's driving it is fear, right, what is going to happen to me

(38:09):
if I say this thing, becauseI've made a mistake and what we
try to talk about is reversingthe question into what is going
to happen to us if I don't Right.
And it's not aboutself-preservation or even you
preservation.
It's about us preservation andsome of the trust that I have to
give to my partner when I'veheard is that the trust can

(38:33):
include.
You deserve to be hurt Rightcan include.
You deserve to be hurt right,like you.
It's completely reasonable thatwhat I've done is causing you
pain or anger or frustration.
I accept that because of whatI've done.
I also trust you that there'senough of us in there that at

(38:53):
some point we're going to beable to talk about this.
At some point we're going to beable to practice truth and
mercy and justice and peace.
And if the consequences of thatare that we have to change the
nature of the relationshipbecause sometimes that's just
the real consequence of actionslike that we remain committed to

(39:15):
reforming that relationship inthe best possible way.
I just think about divorces allthe time and think about how
beautiful it would be forchildren if partners who
divorced found a way to reformtheir relationship in a way that
allowed them to be their bestselves, because of the impact

(39:37):
that it would have on thechildren.
That doesn't mean staying in themarriage if that's not the
right way to be our best selvestogether.
But if there was anintentionality, as we're
transitioning from onerelationship to another, that
we're practicing this andfinding a better rhythm, a
better pattern for us so thatour kids can see us interacting

(40:01):
in this way, so our kids don'tget stuck in the middle of
things, being torn apart and, infact, in a way that actually
means divorce could be healthier, because we found the best
version of us to work togetherand that's what we want our
children to see, and everyencounter is the best version of
us, so that they can modelhealthy relationships as they

(40:24):
get older.
And I fear most of the timethat's not happening.
Because I refuse to forgive,because I refuse to, because I
feel like justice really meanspunishing or hurting the other
side, because I don't believe inother people's capacity to
change, because I refuse to beaccountable or own up, the

(40:44):
devastation that's laid in thewake for so many families to me
isn't worth it.
It just isn't worth it.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
Conflict.
Conflict kills us, doesn't it?
It kills kids, it kills us asformer partners or current
partners.
Yeah, you're so right, john.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Destroys us.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
Only that could be done.
I love that.
I love that whole missionstatement that you have.
I'm sure there's many storiesthat stand out in your mediation
work with couples where amarriage was transformed by
forgiveness.
Is there a particular one youwouldn't mind sharing with us
today?

Speaker 3 (41:18):
Yeah, Well, I think one of the most powerful ones.
I write a little bit about thisin 70x7.
I wrote about it because itreally stood out to me.
It was, frankly, one of thesimplest mediations that I ever
did, though I didn't expect itto couple in the congregation.
I actually knew them.
They were local, I knew thecouple not super well, but I

(41:46):
knew them and he told me, withtheir permission, that they were
heading towards divorce andthat he was out of his league in
trying to help counsel them andnavigate them.
They'd gone to maritalcounseling that had failed and
what have you?
I don't think he had a lot ofhope in saving the marriage, but
he thought it would be great ifI could at least meet with him

(42:08):
and see if we could find a morepeaceful way to navigate through
, because it was becoming a veryhigh conflict, destructive
conflict, split, and I would behonest, I was shocked.
I didn't even know that thatwas happening.
I usually have a pretty goodradar for this stuff, but I
didn't really see it and so Icalled them and the husband
wanted reconciliation.
He didn't want the divorce.
We talked for a while.

(42:29):
Anything we can do to save themarriage, what have you.
When I talked to his wife, shewas ready for the divorce.
She'd already hired an attorney.
She had made the decision.
She didn't really want to havea discussion around a
reconciliation, but she was opento thinking about could we do
this in a less conflictual way?

(42:51):
Can we do this with the leastamount of collateral damage
around her?
And so she agreed to meet onthose terms, and I made it clear
that we meet on the terms ofthe parties involved.
This is what one party wants.
This is what the other partywants.
I'm not going to preference onething or the other.
We're going to just have tonavigate that through together.
But let's just be transparentabout why people are coming to

(43:14):
the meeting, and I spent a weekthinking about them.
It always helps as a mediatorwhen you know the couple and my
kids play with their kids.
We're in a small community.
You know there's going to be aripple effect and I thought I
had this amazing plan.
But as I was walking to theirhouse that's how small a
community that we we live in Ihad this idea and it it really

(43:38):
changed, uh, everything.
It was such a powerful idea.
I'm like I'm gonna try this.
I've never done this before.
And so when I sat down with acouple and said, look, I've
heard everything.
I think I know what's going on.
I'm really just going to ask usto do three things today in our
first session and there may notbe another session after the
first session, but we're justgoing to do three things today
so I asked them to take out apiece of paper and the first

(44:00):
thing I asked him is can youthink of the last time in your
memory where you felt deep lovetowards your partner?
I'm right here.
Can you think of a memory?
It'd even be better if youcould tell me a little story
about what was going on.
But I just want you to take afew minutes.
I want you to write down.
I saw the husband writing rightaway.

(44:20):
Wife was pausing.
That's not a great sign, youcan kind of see.
See like I'm kind of rollingthrough the memories so that it
doesn't surprise me in some waysand he talked about an
anniversary trip that was somelike five years ago, where they
had gone on a trip and hethought it was a wonderful trip
and talked about just how closehe felt to his partner and

(44:41):
everything like that, and thenhe sort of felt like things kind
of went downhill from there andI asked her do you remember
that trip?
And she said I do.
I'm like, did you have the samerecollection from the trip?
She said I did not.
I was angry that entire trip.
And I was angry because thatwas the place where we'd gone to
our honeymoon and he had beenpromising for years and years to
take me back and it canceledmultiple times because he was so

(45:04):
busy with work and so busyprioritizing other things.
By the time we got there it waslike too little, too late, and
I actually resented being there.
I could see the husband wasjust wounded by that.
It just blew him away.
I don't even think he knew.
To a certain extent I think itwas the first time that she'd
really articulated that, and soI said okay, your turn, what do

(45:29):
you got?
And she talked about I think itwas her honeymoon and so I mean
they are kids and it's a longtime, right.
She went all the way back towho she thought she was marrying
and what she thought therelationship was going to be
like and how hopeful she wasabout how things were going to
be.
And then she added I didn't askher, but she added how
disappointing it sort of hadbeen after that that the man

(45:51):
that she thought that she'dmarried was just not the man
that she was married to today.
Like, okay, that went.
Okay, not great, but let's dothe second step.
And the second step was simplyto ask them I want you to think
about the other person for asecond what are their biggest
fears, challenges, trials thatthey're facing or going through

(46:16):
right now?
Can you think about what's hardfor them right now?
And then I'm going to ask you asecond question that's tied to
this one as well, which is canyou think of anything you've
done small, medium or large thatmay have actually added to
those, anything that may havebeen adding to what they're
struggling with right now?

(46:46):
Pausing for a minute, husbandstarts talking about his
addiction to work, his addictionto his career, his complete and
many times lack of connectionto his family, how he told
himself again and again that hewas doing that for his family.
But he can now see why his wifemay have felt abandoned, why
she may have not feltprioritized, why she may have

(47:09):
felt lonely or alone in theirmarriage, and how he can
understand the disappointment,because that's not what she
signed up for.
That's not what he promised.
And tears running down his eyesas he engaged in some real
truth, um, towards her.
She put down her paper, walkedover to him, knelt down beside

(47:34):
him and began begging him toforgive her.
The ways that she also feltlike she had done the same to
him, how she had blamed him, howshe had not seen him, how she
had hurt him in many ways.
He stood up, stood her up,began holding her.
They were crying, they werehugging, they were whispering to

(47:57):
each other.
I felt really awkward being inthe room.
It was like a sacred space andI left.
15 minutes later I left.
I didn't even ask the thirdquestion, which was going to be
is there something you feel likeyou could do for the other
person to help make somethingright?
And and we engaged in some realconflict mediation.

(48:22):
It was, by the way, it didn'tsolve it overnight, but it put
them in the path where theydecided they wanted to work on
their marriage and a while later, there were things that they
had to address, patterns thatneeded to be changed.
They both went back intotherapy individual therapy and
were working on that as well,but there was a bond and a
connection that turned it aroundin 15 minutes.

(48:45):
I got really excited, by theway, and I thought I'm going to
write a book called 15-MinuteMediation and it's going to be
like 15 pages and it's justgoing to have these steps in it.
And I've actually, by the way,for your listeners to know, I've
actually tried it and sometimesthis doesn't work at all.
In fact, I've actually had ablow up in my face and work the

(49:07):
opposite of that, which justgoes to show you that every
couple is different andeverybody's problems are
different.
And probably what I could saymost about that story was it was
a moment where I was in tunewith us to what was going on
that I asked them the questionsthat needed to be asked.
But you think about this whenwe're in conflict, those are not
questions we are askingourselves.

(49:28):
They're not questions that we'retypically thinking about.
We're not trying to remindourselves and bring back
memories of warmth and thehumanity of our partners.
We're not trying to remindourselves often why we married
this person and the good that wesee in them.
We typically are thinking aboutour challenges, our struggles,
our fears, our problems, andless thinking about what it is

(49:49):
that they're carrying with them.
We're clear about how theconflict's impacting us.
We're typically fairly unclearabout how the conflict is
impacting them and we're evenblinder to the fact that we
might actually be contributingto their pain, their suffering,
their woundedness right now andthen, because we're blind to

(50:10):
those things, we don't typicallythink that there's something
that's within our power to do tomake things right.
Right Because we're so busywaiting for the other person to
make it right, we're so busyblaming them and trying to shame
them into making it right thatwe we forget that we have this
power within us, um, to changethese dynamics in really, really

(50:34):
powerful ways yeah, that isjust powerful.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
I'm just just thinking about almost breaking
it down, the process, something.
I mean she felt something right.
It takes humility, but she wastouched and when we're open to
the influence of other peopleand allow that to actually melt
our hearts in a way, melt thewall that we've been carrying,
or this grudge or this animosityfeeling, whatever it is, it

(51:05):
melted.
And then she saw himdifferently.
Right, when we see peopledifferently, the authentic them,
rather than this annoyingperson who works too much or
does this and this and this, soI don't know.
Man, that was just eye-opening.
Thanks for sharing that PowerfulChad, for sharing that Powerful

(51:27):
Chad.
Oh, man, we've sure enjoyed ourdiscussion.
This has been just all kinds ofinsights and questions.
We'll be right back after thisbrief message and we're back.

(51:54):
Let's dive right in.
You write about rolling awaythe stone.
What does that metaphor mean inreal life?
Conflict Resolution and in someways it kind of reminds me of
that story that you just youjust shared that rolling away,
yeah yeah, you notice, that manin the moment probably had
plenty of stones that he couldhave thrown towards his wife

(52:15):
right now.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
I'm sure I know he had plenty of complaints.
Um, I know it in part becausewhen she went and apologized,
she listed a long series ofthings that I'm sure had wounded
him, and so he had a choiceright in that moment.
Right, and I tried to ask thequestion in a very specific way
to avoid that very behavior.
Right, but he still had achoice in that moment to

(52:37):
actually mishear the questionand frankly, I've heard people
do it or deliberately mishearthe question and say well, I'm
not going to talk about thatright now.
I want to talk about my ownwoundedness, and here are all
the ways that you contributed toit.
Rolling away the stones means Isee you so clearly in the
moment that I'm not interestedin giving you what you deserve.

(53:00):
I'm interested in giving youwhat you need Right, you what
you deserve.
I'm interested in giving youwhat you need Right.
And I think that she turns Dave, in part because it was the
first time he had authenticallyseen her in a really long time.
I think it awoke somethingwithin her to finally my husband
sees me.
He sees my pain, he sees mysuffering, he sees my

(53:23):
disappointment and instead ofblaming me for all of that which
he could, he rolled away hisstones and instead offered me
what I needed in the moment.
And there's an apocryphal storythat I love, that I actually

(53:43):
tell in the book.
It comes from a Muslim, sufi,from the 14th century, but it's
about Jesus.
It's not in the Bible, but Ifind it to be like one of my
favorite stories about Jesus.
And he's walking through thisvillage and there's all these
people who are yelling at himand swearing at him and giving
him curses.
And Jesus responds to eachperson with a blessing.

(54:04):
And when he gets to the nexttown, his apostles come around
him and say why are you doingthat?
Those people are mistreatingyou.
Why are you giving themblessings To which he responds.
I can only give what is in mypurse to give.
There are no curses, there areno stones to throw.

(54:25):
All I have is blessings to give.
When we respond to evil withgood, when we respond to hurt
with pain and compassion, it hasa powerful way of disarming
others and inviting them to rolltheir stones away as well.

(54:46):
The conflict dynamics of thishave been studied academically,
they're proven it even at aninternational level about how
you de-escalate or escalate aconflict.
But when it's so close to home,right, when it's so personal,
it's so easy to forget that andit's so easy to get ourselves in
a protective mode and ourstones are there to push you

(55:09):
away and make you say, hey,don't, don't, don't poke the
bear here, you're hurting, um,or maybe to hurt you the way
that I feel like you've beenhurting me, without any
recognition that what we reallywant, what we really need, is
embrace.
It's really hard to embracewhen stones are flying back and

(55:32):
forth.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is Wow, Chad, so powerful.
Hey, as we wrap things up, we'dlove to ask all of our guests.
You've been on before and I'llask you the same question,
though Chad, as far as the honorof the name of our podcast
Stronger Marriage Connectionwhat do you feel like is a key?

(55:55):
What is one of the keys to astronger marriage connection
these days, Chadwick?

Speaker 3 (55:59):
Boseman.
Yeah, let me get personal for aminute and talk about my
marriage.
I'm on a second marriage.
I actually had a marriage thatended in divorce, and a very
painful one, and my wife did aswell, and I'm seven years into

(56:19):
my newest marriage.
It is the single mostfulfilling relationship that
I've ever had in my life.
The fire burns brightly betweenus in really powerful ways, and
as I think about what I'velearned as I've gotten older,
and maybe what I'm doing alittle differently here than

(56:41):
before, it's that wheneverconflict comes our direction now
, what I hear from it is um.
When, when it's coming from mywife, what I hear from it is um
chad, something's not workingfor me here, but I want it to
work, and the reason that I'mfrustrated or the reason that

(57:02):
I'm bringing this up or thereason that I'm talking about it
, this is what I hear.
It's not always the way itcomes out of her mouth or my
mouth sometimes, but this is howI choose to hear it every day.
What I'm saying here is I wantbetter connection than the
connection I have before, andthen I step into that.
I get curious, I ask questionsbefore and then I step into that

(57:27):
.
I get curious.
I ask questions, I try to findout how to make the adjustments
until the connection is bright,and that's an ongoing process.
It's something that I feel likeis part of the open
communication every day.
When I was younger, those sameconversations felt like attacks
to me.
They felt like they werequestioning me or my character,
or questioning whether we shouldbe married or what have you,
and they often responded withdefensiveness or, frankly, my

(57:50):
style was to shut down all theway and just feel very cold and
feel bad for myself and feel badabout it.
Anymore and I've recognizedthat this is a key element of my
marriage is that I amconstantly fine tuning.
I am constantly curious, I'mconstantly open to how we will

(58:12):
work best together and I jokewith my wife.
Sometimes it's like I have anongoing user manual for you and
I keep updating it as I learnmore and more about you because
I want to engage with you in thebest possible way.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
How cool is that?
Yeah, thank you for yourvulnerability.
That's so honest and courageousof you to share about your
marriage with Amanda Ford.
Sometimes I will look forwardto having Amanda Ford on
sometime soon.
Yeah, so you have tremendousresources and books, chad.
Obviously we're talking aboutthe two books here, but what
else?
Where can our friends andfamily in the show go to find

(58:54):
out more about you and followyour movement on conflict
transformation?

Speaker 3 (58:58):
Yeah, so I have a newsletter I published a couple
of times a week.
Sometimes they're tips on onconflict, sometimes they're tips
on conflict, sometimes they'relost chapters.
I tend to write much biggerbooks than the ones that
actually get published.
They're podcasts and videos anda lot of different things, and
you can go toDangerousLoveBookcom and that

(59:18):
will take you to my Substackpage, or you can go to
ChatfordSubstackcom It'll takeyou to the same place.
Sign up for a free newsletterand in your inbox every couple
of weeks the conflict styles arethere.
I have a recent article onboundaries and thinking about
good boundaries versus badboundaries and how to navigate
those in conflict, and then youcan also find when I'm speaking

(59:42):
or events or whatever it is thatyou want help with.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
Wonderful.
And then the waymaker issomething different, then right.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
That is the waymaker.
That's what I call it all thewaymaker.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Make sure I understood.
We will link those resources toour show notes.
Thank you so much, Chad.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Chad.
As we wrap up, we like to askall of our guests another
question that is your takeawayof the day.
We've had a minute in my mindof one of the richest
discussions that I recentlyremember.
Is there a takeaway message, atake-home message, a nugget you
want our, our listeners toremember from our discussion
today?

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
yeah, accept that conflict in your relationship
isn't a bad thing.
It can be a very positive,constructive thing because it
can teach us how to better liveand love together.
Conflict has that really realbenefit if we step into it the
right way, and if we're avoidingit and if we're doing it badly,

(01:00:41):
it won't have that effect.
So skill yourself up, considerit like a requirement.
If I'm going to learn how tofly a plane, I would take lots
of pilot lessons.
Start to skill yourself up ongetting better at conflict and
watch it dramatically improvethe depth and quality of your
relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Love it.
Yeah, Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway of the daywith Chad for?

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Well, I love both books, as you know, dave, and
the standout always for me hasbeen the risk of embrace in 70
times seven.
I always want to say seventimes 70, but it's 70 times
seven and I love that.
And then the four steps.
I really appreciate thereminder of being open, wait,
waiting, and then the embraceand then the letting go.

(01:01:25):
I think that's just beautiful.
I mean, that's going to staywith me all day.
What about you there, dave?
What's going to be your richnugget?
And that you hope all of usremember from our time today
with Dr Chad Ford.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Yeah, Chad, this has been, as I mentioned, just so
helpful.
I think for me it's the stonesit has to do with.
Instead of throwing stones atyour partner, it's just throwing
the stones away.
It's that rolling the stoneaway.
It is the not even having themin your little light purse, your
little latchel there, to justget away.

(01:01:57):
Yeah, it's not even a part ofwho you are is wanting to attack
or to attack back, but it'sblessings, it's kindness, it's
compassion, it's love yeah, thatdangerous love that you talk
about and that includes thoseopen arms.
It's a vulnerable position, too, having open arms.
You're going to get smacked,possibly, right?

(01:02:18):
So what a wonderful metaphor.
So I sure appreciate you comingon today and sharing so much
wisdom and tips for us.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Thanks for all you're doing.
It's really important work.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Thank you, thanks, friends, for joining us for
another episode of StrongerMarriage Connection podcast.
We'll see you next time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
And remember it's the small and simple things that
create a stronger marriageconnection.
Take good care of you and eachother.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Bye-bye now.
Every episode of the show, besure to smash the like button,
leave a comment and share thisepisode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram,
at Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook, at Stronger Marriage.
So be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,

(01:03:26):
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations

(01:03:50):
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
of the Utah Marriage Commission.