March 24, 2025 • 55 mins
Faith and religion shape marriages by influencing beliefs, practices, and community connections that help couples build "championship marriages" through shared sacred purpose. Dr. Loren Marks shares insights from the American Families of Faith Project, featuring interviews with 300 exemplary couples from 20+ faith traditions.
• Shared beliefs create a "family vision" that transcends daily conflicts and provides meaning
• Religious practices like family prayer, Shabbat dinners, and observing Ramadan strengthen marital bonds
• Faith communities offer support, mentorship, and "friends of the marriage" who invest in couples' success
• Even spouses from identical religious backgrounds have different spiritual experiences—every marriage is an "interfaith marriage"
• The "divine triangle" concept shows how spouses on individual spiritual journeys converge as they move toward God
• Big C Commitment (commitment "no matter what") versus little c commitment (conditional commitment) makes the difference in lasting marriages
• Great marriages weren't always great—many couples shared they would have "jumped ship" without faith helping them through early struggles
• Religion can harm marriages when it becomes a "time affair" or when applied too rigidly without relational flexibility
Marriage is an invitation to increased holiness, where "you lift me and I'll lift thee, and together we will ascend."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dave Schramm (00:04):
Faith and religion play a major role in many
couples' lives, influencingeverything from what they eat,
drink and wear to how they raisetheir children, to where they
marry and how they worship.
On today's episode, dr Liz andI are joined by Dr Loren Marks
from Brigham Young University,and he helps direct the American
Families of Faith Project, aproject involving interviews
(00:24):
with 300 couples scatteredacross the country representing
a variety of religions.
He shares all kinds of lessonslearned, including quotes from
many of the couples theyinterviewed.
We discuss how beliefs,practices and religious
community can influencemarriages, and even how religion
can be harmful in somesituations, and even how
religion can be harmful in somesituations.
(00:46):
Dr Loren Marks is a professorin Brigham Young University's
School of Family Life and afellow at the Wheatley Institute
.
His research focuses onreligion and families, as well
as on African American families.
He has authored nearly 200scholarly articles and books.
His research on families hasreceived national media
attention from outlets includingthe New York Times, the
Washington Times, the BostonGlobe and the Wall Street
(01:08):
Journal.
He is co-director with DavidDahlheit of the American
Families of Faith ResearchProject.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey friends, welcome to anotherepisode of Stronger Marriage
Connection podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity alongside Dr Liz Hale
(01:29):
, our licensed clinicalpsychologist and therapist.
She's actually joining fromHawaii today.
Liz, I'm so jealous, gratefulthat you're joining with us
today.
I'm really excited about ourguest today.
We know Liz.
From ancient texts to modernresearch and in the lived
experiences of countless couples, faith and religion have served
(01:50):
as bedrock foundations forlasting marriages, these
spiritual connections.
They shape everything fromdaily routines to life's biggest
decisions, influencing howcouples parent, they navigate
challenges and build theirshared lives together.
Well, today we're delving deepinto this fascinating
intersection of faith andmarriage with someone who has
(02:12):
dedicated his career tounderstanding it Dr Lord Marks
from Brigham Young University.
Now, dr Lord Marks is adistinguished scholar in this
field, but he's not just that.
He's also a dear friend andcolleague who brings both
academic insight and personalwisdom to this vital
conversation.
Welcome to stronger marriageconnection, my friend lauren
(02:33):
thanks for having me.
Liz and dave appreciate it yeah,thanks for for joining us now,
laura, before we take a deeperdive into our discussion about
faith, religion and marriage,can you just give us a little
bit of a background about whyyou chose to study this
particular aspect of families?
Loren Marks (02:51):
Sure, the American Families of Faith Project is a
co-directed project withProfessor David Dallahide and
myself, and over the years we'vehad over 300 students,
wonderful students, who'vehelped make it possible as well.
But going back 25 years ago orso, we discovered that about
(03:13):
10,000 statistics-based studieson divorce had been conducted,
but that fewer than 300, or onlyabout 3% as many studies had
used in-depth interviews withwives and husbands in strong,
happy, exemplary marriages.
And so you know, in a phrase,we have tried to make the effort
(03:37):
to bring some balance to theforce, you might say, trying to
bring strong marriages a littlebit more to the foreground.
Dave Schramm (03:47):
Okay, wonderful, thank you.
Liz Hale (03:49):
There is something to be said for studying what is
working right, lauren and Dave,instead of what's not working,
and it's quite different, Iunderstand.
Well, we love that.
I don't know if you want to sayanything about that, but we
just love that you're involvedwith this American Families of
Faith Project, lauren, and whatabout your particular direction
or your aim in connection withmarriage?
(04:10):
Where do you come in, my friend?
Loren Marks (04:16):
It's been a joy In some ways.
The aim for me, I think, is thesame for many of the students
that work on this, for DaveDahlheit, and that is to figure
out how to build a championshipmarriage in a world where that
seems increasingly hard to pulloff.
(04:37):
And so the way that we'veapproached that essentially is
we have talked to the pointpeople, community leaders,
clergy around the country andhave said to a Jewish rabbi, to
a Muslim imam, to a Catholicpriest, a Baptist pastor we want
(04:57):
the strongest, the bestmarriage from your respective
congregation.
We would like to interview thewife and the husband together to
find out how they pulled it off, and usually these marriages
are 20 years plus and we sitdown with them in their home and
ask them what's the secretsauce, how did you make it work,
(05:21):
what challenges did you face?
And how did faith, in amultifaceted sense, how did
faith help make this possible?
And so that's the genesis ofthe project and it's what
continues to fascinate both Daveand myself, 25, 30 years into
this endeavor, and it's reallyintriguing to have students,
(05:45):
some of whom are not yet married, some of whom who are newly
married, be right in the mix,helping and contributing.
Liz Hale (05:54):
Wow, that is so cool.
What a compliment to be called,or to refer maybe to your own
marriage as a championshipmarriage.
Some days I could refer to mymarriage that way, other days or
other moments not so much.
I hope I'm not the only onethat feels that way.
Dave Schramm (06:08):
That's right.
Yeah, that's right.
One of the things I appreciateabout this is just the vastness.
This is not a limited sample,but you have all kinds of faiths
and backgrounds and Abrahamicfaiths, so let's really dial
into this.
I'm really curious about whatyou have found and how actually
(06:31):
religion can strengthen marriage.
You mentioned three distinctareas Religion can strengthen
beliefs, practices and community.
Can you walk us through each ofthose and give us some examples
?
Loren Marks (06:52):
Absolutely Been looking forward to this.
In a nutshell, liz and Dave,we've interviewed over 300
powerful marriages from aroundAmerica now.
They hail from over 20different faith communities.
Interestingly, we've got anumber of immigrants from
outside the US and more than 20different faith communities.
Interestingly, we've got anumber of immigrants from
outside the US and more than 20different nations are
represented as well.
Over half of the folks weinterviewed are from racial and
(07:15):
or ethnic minorities, and so itreally is a richly diverse
sample, which makes it even moreintriguing when we see things
that come up again and againfrom wives and husbands across
race, across religion, acrossregions of the country, and it
gives us additional confidencethat what they're talking about
(07:35):
might matter to many marriagesand not just their own.
I appreciate the three-facetedquestion about beliefs,
practices and communities.
In looking forward to gettingto visit with the two of you
today, I thought it might be alot more interesting to
introduce your listeners to manyof the families that we
(08:01):
actually interviewed.
We mentioned it's important totry to steer away from being a
diva soloist and letting therich voices of the choir sing.
So, if it's all right, I'll tapseveral of the wonderful women
and men that we've interviewedand share little pieces of their
story.
On the beliefs, note one waythat beliefs in general seem to
(08:28):
strengthen many of these strongmarriages is through what we've
come to call a shared familyvision.
One Arab Muslim wife namedNoreen told us, I think, that
religion affects our marriedlife, because on this point we
can agree.
The Ramadan fast, themonth-long fast in Islam, is
(08:52):
sacred.
When we both fast, we do ouractivities together, we break
the fast together and we wake upat midnight and eat before
fasting.
So we do these types of thingstogether.
That's how religion is makingour life and our marriage grow
together.
And there I end with her words,but I mentioned, noreen and her
(09:15):
husband were pretty open abouthaving ongoing, you know,
conflicts, about daily hassles,those kinds of things.
But Ramadan, this month-longfast, was something that they
looked to throughout the year topull their family together, to
pull their marriage together,and at the conclusion of this
highly disciplined one-monthfast, they, like other highly
(09:41):
devoted Muslims, would take azakat fast, an offering that was
given to the poor, and for somethis is as much as 2.5% of
their net worth not even justtalking about gross income for a
year, but net worth.
And for a college student youknow that I spend a lot of time
(10:04):
with 2.5% of the $20 bill theyhave in their wallet doesn't
sound like much, but forsomebody who's been stashing
away a nest egg for years andyears, this is the culminating
effort of the fast to give thisoffering of generosity to the
poor.
And I can't help but note thatif each of us were to follow
(10:30):
this kind of example and model,we'd eradicate world hunger in a
mighty hurry.
So wonderful to hear thatexample from a Muslim family.
On the note of the shared familyvision, a couple named Holly
and Jared, who are members ofthe Church of Jesus Christ of
(10:51):
Latter-day Saints, told us, interms of this shared family
vision, we know that we aregoing to be married forever.
We know that neither one of usis going anywhere, even if we're
having a miserable day or weekor month.
If it comes to that, we are notworried that the other person
is going to take off and we'renot worried that our marriage is
(11:12):
falling apart and whileoccasionally that might mean
that the two of us are takingeach other for granted, I think
that gives us a lot of security,knowing that the relationship
that you are building and thefamily you're building is
something that's going to lastforever.
And Holly's husband, jared,added.
I have to say these things myfaith are as much a part of me
(11:33):
as my arms, so I often don'tstop and think about them.
But the whole basis of ourrelationship is not that we're
just here to have fun now orthat we hope things will work
out for a while.
It's that we're building aneternal unit that Holly and I
are always going to be together.
The goals that we're aimedtowards are not just five years
(11:54):
down the road, it's eternity,eternity, eternity.
So, whether we're hearing fromNoreen or Holly and Jared, we
hear couples that have a sacredfocus and also a shared vision
about what family life is about.
So I'd say, on the beliefsfront, that's just a brief
(12:14):
snapshot from a couple ofdifferent families.
In terms of practices that youmentioned, dave, I love
practices, get very excitedabout them and in looking at
studies from across AmericanFamilies of Faith Project, we've
had several studies that haveindicated that some influential
practices include saying gracefor Protestant Christian
(12:38):
families, attending mass andsaying novenas, offering novenas
for Catholic Christians, familyhome evening and family worship
for members of the Church ofJesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints and the Shabbat meal andthe accompanying rituals of that
for Jewish families and, as wejust heard a moment ago, the
(12:58):
Ramadan fast for many Muslimfamilies, and in most cases,
across several studies, thesekinds of practices were
reportedly meaningful both forthe wives and mothers and the
husbands and fathers.
One practice that recurs asmeaningful across race, religion
(13:18):
and region is family prayer.
Family prayer Shanna, a Latina,christian mother of five, told
us, reflecting back on her life.
She said my neighbors from thetime I was the age of six, all
the way up till I was 10,.
They were born again Christiansand even though that's not the
(13:40):
denomination I'm in now, it's alittle bit similar to it.
Anyway, I felt different when Iwalked in their home.
They were really humble people.
They always wanted to helpothers.
They prayed as a familytogether.
They read the Bible together.
They were never out of placewith anything, it seemed.
It was different from anythingI'd ever seen.
(14:01):
There was peace as soon as I'dwalk into their home and I'd
just feel at ease.
And Shanna, in her interview,went on to mention that now, 30
years later in her life, sheprays with her children and her
husband like her neighbors did30 years previously and she
commented on some of thebenefits that she perceived from
(14:22):
that family practice and said aminute on some of the benefits
that she perceived from thatfamily practice and said family
prayer feels right, it feelsgood, it feels like this is what
every marriage and familyshould be doing.
I'm grateful to be able to dothat.
If my family I grew up with everwould have done that it would
have been a fond memory that Iwould have held, but we never
did.
But our family now should praymore.
(14:44):
But when we kneel together andhold hands as a family, it
brings a spirit of love into ourhome and makes the children
feel right and lets them knowthat this is what is right and
that this is what they need todo with their families.
I'm sure they'll remember it,and research elsewhere by other
scholars indicates that thesekinds of religious practices do
(15:09):
leave a lasting impression onmany not all, but on many kids
growing up.
Maybe I'll just share one morebrief one from a Jewish mother
(15:33):
who really, really impressed meconducting the interview,
talking about Shabbat or theJewish Sabbath, and she, sarah,
said Shabbat gives us a chanceto breathe, to relax.
We've had a busy week and here'sour time to be together, relax.
We've had a busy week andhere's our time to be together.
We always take a deep breathbefore we do this and let all
the thoughts, the craziness andworries and everything slip away
.
I think that when we take thetime out and when we light the
(15:56):
candles on Friday night, that'sa time that I feel really close
to my husband and to my twochildren.
When we sit across the tablefrom each other, my husband and
I, and the candles are lit andyou see the kids to your right
and to your left, there issomething you get from that that
is so deep.
It's just a feeling that all isright in the world, it doesn't
(16:18):
matter what else is going on.
Right in that circle, it'sawe-inspiring.
On Right in that circle it'sawe-inspiring.
And you know, liz and Dave, youcan almost see the candles lit
and the table.
Liz Hale (16:33):
Can't you Taking that time to set up that beautiful
picture?
And it just takes a little bitof effort, doesn't it?
Dave Schramm (16:40):
And intention We'll be right back after this
brief message, and we're back.
Let's dive right in and I was.
Liz Hale (16:59):
I was telling dave and rex not that long ago, lauren,
that you know my husband's not aman of many words, but I love
to hear him pray and it reallytouches my heart when he prays
for me.
There is something just verybeautiful about that.
I get to see him throughdifferent eyes, so I'm an easy
sell when it comes to faith,prayer, taking time out.
(17:22):
As we know, so many things canbe used against us.
Right as good as faith is,sometimes it can be a
double-edged sword.
How have you seen, lauren,where religion can actually harm
or divide marriages?
Loren Marks (17:39):
That's a really good question, and it does If
religion, especially when itburns hot in someone's heart, in
someone's life, heart insomeone's life, that same fire
(18:01):
that warms up the house, thesame fire that prepares a hot
dinner, can also burn when we gounwisely crashing through.
A few different thoughts abouthow religion can do some damage
if we're not careful.
Include, I think, a key phrasefrom one of our friends, Bill
Doherty, a leading maritaltherapist and researcher from
(18:23):
University of Minnesota, is thatwe have to be careful of what
Bill calls time affairs and, asopposed to sexual infidelity,
what Bill means by time affairsare investing time in anything
that becomes a detractor or adeterrent in the marriage and
(18:44):
that, if we're not careful, toomuch time with golf or hunting
or shopping, keeping up with thefashionistas you know, can
destroy marriage just as much assexual infidelity if that time
affair gets in the way.
What does it have to do withreligion?
(19:05):
Well, sometimes, if we're notcareful, religion, which can be
a wonderful influence for good,can become a time affair if we
get carried away with it and itends up being highly divisive
instead of unifying.
So that's something that weneed to keep an eye out wisely,
(19:27):
I think.
Another way that religion candivide if we're not careful was
captured by one of the greatfigures in 21st century Judaism,
the late Rabbi Jonathan Sachs,and he said religion is at its
best when it relies on thestrength of example.
(19:47):
It is at its worst when itseeks to impose truth by force.
End of direct quote.
And so when we have somethingthat we feel passionately about,
it can be easy to becomecoercive and damage arises when
we take that kind of approach.
(20:11):
In some of the American Familiesof Faith research that Dave
Dallahay and I have done againand again, it comes up that we
need to balance wisely religiousfirmness and conviction with a
flexibility, a relationalflexibility, and that we need to
be careful about not being toorigid.
(20:34):
If we don't have some structure, we're likely to lose religious
ritual altogether andcommitment, and that's not what
many religious folks want.
They want to have structure,but we need to adapt and be
sensitive to the needs of thosearound us of those around us.
(21:00):
To tell a negative story onmyself, Years ago we tried to do
a study of sacred texts eachday as a family, and it seemed
like we'd slipped into a modewhere we were reading and not
really studying and discussing.
And so I thought how can wespruce this up a little bit?
And so for about a week we'dread and then we'd have a Q&A
session and that seemed to gogreat for three or four days and
then it died and fizzled and weasked our kids I said you guys
(21:25):
were asking some great questionsa few days ago, why are you not
doing that now?
And our 10 year old son at thatpoint in time, Logan, said well
, because, dad, um, now everytime we ask a question you just
ramble on forever.
And we realized you know, Ishould have known better.
(21:46):
And so now what we try to do isgo ahead and and cover a couple
pages and then go around thehorn and have everybody share
something that was meaningfulpersonally to them, to try to
keep the study in place, beingfirm, but to have a more
flexible approach.
So I think that there are anumber of ways that religion can
(22:10):
do harm if we're not wise andcareful and relational in our
approach to it.
Dave Schramm (22:16):
I like the way that you put that, lorne.
It reminds me of something thatWally Goddard you're familiar
with, wally, and a lot of goodwork that he has done we've had
him on.
He talked about the differencein ritual in a relationship.
He says sometimes we can get soinvolved in whatever it is
religiously that we just do itout of habit.
We get into this routineinstead of the relationship with
(22:38):
the divine, relationship withwith others, and so that's,
that's very perceptive.
Yeah, you kind of think, okay,are we going through motions or
is this a an active?
Yeah, are we striving to deepenrelationship?
Any, any thoughts there?
Loren Marks (22:52):
Yeah, like you, dave, I love Wally.
I think he has tremendousinsight, both personally and as
a researcher.
I think that he is ontosomething there and, wisely,
bearing in mind what we holdsacred religiously and also what
we hold dear relationally, andand trying to find the golden
(23:15):
mean, the hybrid between the two, is what the wisest, I think,
and the best of the couples thatwe interviewed shared with us
and, you know, with some, youknow dangers that come with
religion.
I think it is critical to note.
You know, for example, in asocial context with a faith
(23:38):
community, there are manybenefits where we can learn from
, learn how to do this, how toblend relationships and religion
wisely and well.
Wherever we're at Faithcommunity, wise, there are
models that we can look aroundand draw from Not perfect ones,
but exemplary ones.
(23:59):
One of the benefits you knowbeing in a faith community is
you tend to have a couple who'sfive years ahead of you in the
lifespan and you can get apreview at what's coming.
Five years from now, ten yearsfrom now, 10 years from now.
There's probably one of thosecouples in your congregation and
if you're young and fortunate,you may have someone 40 years
(24:22):
ahead of you and so you have alived model of wisdom and how to
blend relationships and faithtogether in ways that can work.
Many of the couples that we'veinterviewed have referred to
this as the strength and supportof a church family.
(24:47):
If I can just drop a couplenarratives there, an
African-American couple that weinterviewed in New Orleans not
too long after Hurricane Katrinahit down there shared this with
us.
This is from a father namedLucius.
He said after Hurricane Katrina, when I was sick, we had two
(25:09):
friends.
This is a married couple sick.
We had two friends.
This is a married couple whocame to my wife and told her if
you need money, it's not aproblem.
And they were wealthy people,they had money.
So if we had said yeah, wewould have gotten it.
It was not just a remark, itwas something they would have
done.
Fortunately, we struggledthrough financially some kind of
(25:31):
way without having to go tothem.
But that's kindness you do notsee every day.
This is from a differentmarriage, but another Christian
family in Louisiana said this ismemorable for me.
I remember this well, eventhough it took place years ago.
Remember this well, even thoughit took place years ago.
(25:54):
They said when it looked badfor us like we might lose our
home.
Another church member stoodbehind me and said he would be
there to help us if our housewas ever at risk.
I knew that he would take careof us and nothing would happen
as far as our home.
I felt like God put me in thatplace to have someone else take
(26:15):
care of me.
That's the end of that narrative.
But again, if I can refer toBill Doherty as a wise head in
our field, bill's talked abouthow there are friends of us as
individuals, as a wife, as ahusband, as a person, but we
(26:36):
need to come to cherish whatBill calls friends of the
marriage, individuals who have asupportive, invested commitment
to seeing us thrive in ourmarriages.
And I can't think of a bettercouple examples to send your way
or to our listeners than tostop and reflect that someone
(26:59):
who could offer thousands,perhaps tens of thousands of
dollars to a sister or brotherin their church family is the
same kind of person who wouldsupport you spiritually,
relationally, emotionally, asyou're trying to figure out how
to weather life storms as amarried couple as well.
Dave Schramm (27:19):
That's powerful, lauren, as I think, as you've
reviewed some of these beliefswhich turn you know, practices,
things that individuals, thecouples, the families do, and
then the protective factor ofthe community of being there, of
showing up, of helping andrelying on one another.
(27:39):
Powerful, powerful concepts,thank you.
Something else that you havesaid you say that every marriage
is an interfaith marriage.
Tell us more about what youmean by that.
Loren Marks (27:53):
Yeah, I wish I could take credit for that
statement.
It is true, I think DaveDahlheit and I both believe this
.
We've both seen it in our ownmarriages.
But you know, in some ways theshort version of this is that
even if you as spouses grew upin the same church, on the same
(28:14):
street, maybe even next door toeach other, there can still be
significant differences in termsof devotion, in interpretation,
in practice.
Scholar who's worked with us onAmerican Families of Faith,
originally from China, aChristian convert from China
(28:41):
discovered in our AmericanFamilies of Faith interviews a
tendency or trend that shereferred to as matched level
faith marriages and what shemeans by that.
In contrast, or in addition tothe concept of within-faith
marriage, that you can check thesame box the Baptist and
(29:04):
Baptist boxes as wife andhusband in a marriage.
But because there are suchvarying levels of devotion and
commitment, you can haveessentially an interfaith
marriage even though you go tothe same church on Sunday or one
of you goes and one of youdoesn't.
In terms of this matched levelfaith that we interviewed, they
(29:32):
were aware and respectful,highly respectful of their
spouse's beliefs and practicesand approaches that in some ways
mirrored their own and in someways were different, but I think
that's something interestingfor us to consider that, even
though interfaith marriage getsa lot of attention and play that
(29:53):
, there's this matched level, uh, faith that that also comes
into play.
And for many people of faith,when they hear that concept and
think about it, say, oh yeah,I've, I've seen that my whole
life, I just didn't have a nameto give to it.
Yeah.
Dave Schramm (30:08):
Yeah, that is that's just thinking about.
That is interesting.
Let me ask you then, lauren, afollow up to that Is the goal
necessarily to bring you to theexact same level of belief and
ritual practice, or is it tohonor and respect where your
partner or spouse is as you growtogether, and it may be
(30:29):
slightly different journeys orexperiences that you have.
Does that make sense?
Loren Marks (30:34):
It does.
It's an excellent question.
I think, of the wisdom of aQuaker proverb which says you
lift me and I will lift thee,and together we will ascend.
I love the idea there and thiscomes up in some of our
(30:55):
interviews across faith, by theway an idea of a divine triangle
where a wife may be coming upone apex, the husband up another
apex of a triangle, and theirwalk is not identical.
They're individual elements andyet as they strive towards a
shared God, they do converge astime goes on.
(31:21):
But there still has to berespect, give and take, conflict
resolution, some patience, someholy envy for strengths that
one partner may have whereanother is weak, and so forth.
So it's a great question.
Many of these couples and thisis something that I think
(31:43):
qualifies as one of the mostimportant findings that we came
across is that great marriageswere not and are not always
great.
Liz, you kind of referencedthis, you know, I think, in our
conversation earlier.
Some days are championship dayswith your husband and you know,
(32:04):
in my case, some days when I gohome as a family studies
professor and do the take homeexam as a dad and husband, I'm
afraid I get some D's and F'salong the way.
And many of these couples werepretty authentic and transparent
and saying look, the first one,two, three, seven years of our
(32:26):
marriage were a struggle ingrowing pains, trying to figure
out how to turn two me's intoone.
We and.
Were it not for faith, both ofus would have jumped ship and
some of them got quite emotional.
Liz, you mentioned earlier whatan honor it must be to be
(32:47):
selected by your clergy saying,hey, this wife and husband,
they're a championship team,interview them.
Your clergy is saying, hey,this wife and husband, they're a
championship team, interviewthem.
And as we told them that, somebecame pretty emotional and said
if you had told us that we'd behere at year two or three in
our marriage, when we werestruggling, struggling hard to
(33:11):
overcome selfishness andpettiness, we never would have
believed it.
And yet, 14, 20, 25, 30 yearsin, they'd figured out how to
turn two me's into one we.
Liz Hale (33:26):
That's so tender that makes me cry.
It's beautiful.
Wow.
We'd love to know more.
Learn about some of the mostimportant findings about
Marriage for the AmericanFamilies and Faith Project.
How we love that project.
What have you learned over theyears?
That applies to marriage inparticular.
So you've said so many greatthings.
Are there any other nuggets?
(33:48):
Just about your own marriageand marriages that you see
around you in your own family orthe students?
Um, what, what else?
What else, my friend?
Loren Marks (33:57):
thanks.
Thanks for asking, liz.
Um, in terms of my family oforigin, one of one of my
favorite stories uh from my dad.
Uh is uh from my dad is onethat took place back in the 70s
and at this point in time, youknow this is a different time,
(34:27):
obviously, but my mom and my dadhad three different children in
cloth diapers at the same timeand their washing machine broke.
They were at poverty levelexistence at this point.
They didn't have enough moneyto get the washing machine fixed
, much less have a new onepurchased, and they were I mean,
(34:54):
this was a real crisis.
It's August and you've got threekids in cloth diapers and no
money.
Washing machine's not aconvenience, it's a you know red
alarm emergency.
And my dad came home from workone day and there was a washing
machine on the front porch andhe lifted up the lid and there
(35:20):
was an envelope with a hundreddollar bill inside taped to the
underside of the lid.
No note, just this, and then awash bin full of detergent.
Just this and then a wash binfull of detergent, really
(35:44):
quickly, without boring anybody.
If we run the economics on that, we're talking about four or
five hundred dollars in the cashalone in today's currency.
And my dad teared up.
He said he felt somethinginside him break, such gratitude
for the kindness of anindividual or family who would
do this.
And he and my mom sworesomething of an oath to each
(36:04):
other that there would be a daywhen they would be in a position
to help others in the way thatthey'd been lifted in their
faith community, in theircommunity in rural Oregon,
outside of their church as well.
And I hesitate to say thisbecause my dad wouldn't want me
to, but in some ways this is thepoint.
(36:26):
The day did come.
When they broke through, youknow a poverty level, existence
and the way that they approachedthe remainder of their life is
they bought used cars but whenthey figured they got their
money's worth out of a vehicle,they would look around them in
the faith community or thebroader community and find a
(36:46):
family that needed a car andjust give it away.
I don't know how many they'vegiven away to this point.
To my knowledge it's probablysomewhere between 12 and 15,
maybe as high as 20.
But in terms of pure and livedreligion, loving God and loving
(37:07):
your neighbor is sacred inalmost every world tradition, is
sacred in almost every worldtradition.
And when a marriage can rely onfaith and then turn and give
some of that strength to othersin the faith community, in the
(37:32):
broader community, outside ofthe faith community, those are
situations where everybody winsand naturally you don't have to
belong to a faith community todo that.
But the faith community doescreate a structured,
intentionally fabricated contextfor giving and receiving in a
covenant community wherepromises have been made in the
(37:54):
marriage, to the family, to thefaith community, to sisters and
brothers in that faith communitysacred covenants, to behave in
ways that try to approximate theGod that's believed in, and I
find that deeply inspiring andhope to be more like that.
Dave Schramm (38:15):
We'll be right back after this brief message,
and we're back, let's dive rightin.
Well, lauren, as we wrap uphere our discussion, we'd like
to ask all of our guests aquestion, and the question we
(38:39):
ask is what do you feel like isthe key to a stronger marriage
connection?
Loren Marks (38:48):
Boy, there are thousands to choose from, as you
two are well aware in yourprofessional life.
If you were to pin me down, Ithink one might be the big C
versus little c commitment.
(39:09):
Again, this is something thatour colleague, bill Doherty's,
talked about as well, along withseveral other researchers, but
we found it to be particularlypowerful in the championship
marriages that we have had thechance to step onto sacred
ground with Big C.
Commitment with a capital Cmeans commitment, no matter what
(39:30):
.
Little C commitment iscommitment as long as dot dot
dot, as long as they don't findsomebody who's better looking or
whose hair hasn't fallen outlike mine has, who makes more
money, who's healthier, etcetera.
And increasingly we see thatkind of provisional commitment.
(39:52):
But with big C commitment, thisbuy-in of commitment, no matter
what, a level of loyalty, ofintegrity, that is held sacred
by both wife and husband, Ithink that that kind of
commitment, wife and husband, Ithink that that kind of
(40:13):
commitment, that kind of trust,can cover a multitude of ills,
including stupid things that wedo and say every day in marriage
and life.
That can get us by.
Maybe the most potent example Ican give you of big C versus
little c commitment comes from acouple named JD and Betsy.
(40:34):
They're an African-Americancouple from Wisconsin and in
2005, so 20 years ago Betsy, whohad already raised some
biological children but also hadfive foster children she, was
struck by a drunk driver andlost her legs, her mobility and
(40:55):
her ability to communicateclearly after an extended coma.
As I interviewed them, both ofthem explained to me that they
didn't have time to hate nobodyand that they'd forgiven the
drunk driver.
And at that point in theinterview, jd turned from me to
(41:15):
Betsy, sensitive to a commentthat she'd made, that she
wouldn't blame him if he ranaway from her in their
profoundly difficult situation.
And at that part, jd told Betsyand I'm going to read this
because I want to get it justright JD told Betsy and I'm
going to read this because Iwant to get it just right he
said you know, like I told you,I said till death, do us part.
(41:36):
Elsewhere in the interview hesays till death, do us part, and
forever after that, continuingwith his words I am going to be
here.
I want you to be here for metoo.
That's what my mother told me.
She said before we got married.
Son, you've got to listen tothe words.
That's what my mama said.
If you are truly really readyto get married, you've got to
(42:00):
listen to the words.
That's what I did.
I listened, that's what I wantit to be till death.
Do us part and forever afterthat.
That's where I want ourrelationship to be.
I'm always going to have yourback and I want you to have mine
.
And this afternoon, liz and Dave, like every other day, jd will
(42:24):
pick Betsy up.
He'll put her into herwheelchair.
He'll take her down theelevator in their apartment
building and he'll take her intoher wheelchair.
He'll take her down theelevator in their apartment
building and he'll take her fora drive Her only real taste of
freedom.
Each day.
20 years he's been doing that.
Jd understands what big Ccommitment means, and our
(42:46):
American Families of Faith team,including the 300 students
who've worked with us over theyears.
We are so profoundly gratefulfor marriages like JD's and
Betsy's that don't show usperfection, but they do show us
exemplary levels of commitmentand devotion, love, integrity
(43:07):
and trust.
Devotion, love, integrity andtrust.
And hopefully the livedinvitation that they offer
through their examples willinspire us to new heights in our
own marriages.
Liz Hale (43:22):
Wow, that's something.
Wow, you have been so.
You blessed us so much today,Lauren.
So much good information.
Where can we all go to find outmore about you and your
research, please?
Loren Marks (43:36):
thank you for asking, liz uh.
American families of faith.
If you just punch that intoyour your google search engine,
I'll give you our website, andthere are a couple hundred
different resources, rangingfrom video shorts of a minute to
fuller length articles.
Some of these are public facing, some of them are more academic
(43:59):
in tone and based on the hardresearch, but we hope that
you'll draw strength fromfamilies like JD's and Betsy's.
You know it's interesting.
(44:20):
I have been so moved by thesefamilies.
It's been the great experienceof my professional life to be
able to go to work and to learnfrom families like these.
And I would say to those outthere yes, we're familiar with
the divorce statistics.
We know that there are a lot ofthings that are difficult in
(44:41):
life, but there is profound andreal hope in examples of
everyday heroes to our right andto our left, and many of those
can be found in faithcommunities.
Um that, that's been a blessingfor me wow, so powerful, lauren
(45:01):
.
Dave Schramm (45:01):
Hey, another question we ask, um all of our
guests is just a takeaway of theday.
Is there a takeaway, uh,something you want our listeners
to remember from our discussiontoday?
Loren Marks (45:15):
Thanks, thanks, dave.
If I can share a personalexperience, as opposed to one
from one of our 300 marvelousmarriages marriages I just feel
incomplete without doing amarriage-related podcast,
without talking about mysweetheart of almost 30 years,
(45:37):
sandra, and I will say that,having taught at three different
universities across time, oftenI'll ask a question
confidentially near the end ofthe semester and ask students to
take out a blank piece of paper, not to put their name on it
and to write a response to thequestion what is your greatest
fear about marriage?
(45:57):
About 85% of the studentswho've responded over the years
have said my greatest fear isthat my spouse, my future spouse
, will cheat on me, and most ofthe remaining 15% say I'm
worried that I'll cheat on myfuture spouse.
(46:18):
So the crux here takes us backto the big C commitment, and
often I will share the followinglove story from my own life,
and in short, it goes like thisOne of the great love stories
from my life.
I think about 20 years ago mywife ran to a Kmart store and
(46:45):
was buying a number of groceries, including a sink fixture
replacement for a house a numberof groceries, including a sink
fixture replacement for ourhouse and when I came home from
work that day, as I came throughthe door, sandra rushed and she
said I've got to go to Kmart,I'll explain when I get back.
And I said I thought that yousaid you went to Kmart earlier
today.
(47:05):
And she said I did, but I'llexplain when I get back.
So I find out later the rest ofthe story.
Sandra went back to Kmart, wentto the customer service line and
said to the customer servicerep hey, I got home and I
discovered that this $52 sinkfixture was not showing up on my
(47:26):
receipt.
You didn't charge me for it.
And the lady at the customerservice counter didn't even know
what to tell her.
Apparently, this is not acomplaint.
They feel the whole lot at thecustomer service counter.
You know not getting charged.
And so Sandra said tell youwhat?
How about I just go backthrough the checkout line as
(47:46):
though I'm paying for it for thefirst time, which in fact I am.
You guys get your money and myconscience is clear.
And the customer service galsays whatever lady.
And then I tell the studentsthat is one of the great love
stories of my life and theythink hey, come on, that's not
(48:08):
even PG-13.
Where do you see that as agreat love story.
And then I remind them that for85% of them their greatest
concern is that their futurespouse will cheat on them.
And I say, not knowing my wife,just hearing that one story,
how much sleep do you think Ilose over worrying about whether
(48:31):
my wife is faithful to me ornot?
And there's often a pregnantpause.
And then someone will say none.
And I say why?
And they'll say well, becauseshe was faithful to the cashier
at Kmart.
I mean, she took the sink back.
(48:51):
And then I'll say that's right,she took the saint back to have
(49:13):
integrity, to live up to thosepromises, those covenants that
we make.
And that when we do that,through what Dave Dahl, hyatt
and I call the principle oflived invitation namely our
behavior is permission to othersto behave similarly, but it is
more than that, it is aninvitation to do so that through
(49:39):
that principle of livedinvitation, when we live up to
our covenants, our commitments,when we take the sink back,
there are benefits that comefrom that kind of integrity that
bless not only our own marriageor our own children, our own
home, but that permeate societyand instill in each of us a
(50:02):
desire to be our best self.
So on that note, I think I'dclose up with a statement from
Judaism that marriage is aninvitation to increased holiness
, and to be married to a womanlike Sandra it is that it's not
(50:23):
perfect, we both make mistakesevery day, but nevertheless
there is an ongoing invitationto holiness.
And back to our Quaker friendsyou lift me and I'll lift thee
and together we will ascend.
Thanks so much for having me,you two.
I appreciate your work,appreciate the messages on the
(50:44):
podcast, past and present.
Thanks for all the good workyou're doing with Utah Marriage
Commission, etc thank you somuch, lauren.
Dave Schramm (50:53):
This has been past and present.
Thanks for all the good workyou're doing with Utah Marriage
Commission et cetera.
Thank you so much, lauren.
This has been so helpfulbeneficial, inspiring even.
Liz Hale (51:04):
Liz, do you have a takeaway?
You know, I was just thinkingbefore.
Lauren even said it was notabout perfection.
I love that reminder because Ithink sometimes we can really
get discouraged.
We know our faults and ourweaknesses right.
Our blind spots come up andcatch us off guard, and yet it's
really about the big Ccommitment.
It's the commitment every dayto do a little bit better, to
lift each other, to be morecommitted, to be more loving, to
(51:24):
be more forgiving.
It's just such a message ofhope.
Today, lauren, and I've heardyour Take Back the Sink story.
I'm so glad to make theconnection that that was yours.
I will never forget that.
I read that years ago, somehow,some way, and now to see her
today is just such an honor.
Dave, my friend, what about therichest nugget that you're
(51:47):
taking away today with our timewith Dr Lauren Marks?
Yeah, yeah.
Dave Schramm (51:51):
This has been, this has been in the Lord.
I mean when I say this has beeninspiring, and I think that
that's what faith can do forpeople is to help them to live
better, holier, outside ofthemselves.
I think religion and faith alot of the theme in my mind as
you read these narratives isit's, is it helps them to search
(52:12):
inward and then to turn outward.
Right, it's not about them andI think that sometimes, without
(52:51):
something higher hol myself,that faith helps me to search
inward, to turn outward, totreat others differently,
including my wife and my, bringmeaning and hope and help us
through the tough and throughthe hard and through the
challenges.
It can bring us hope and helpus in our lives to treat others
differently, higher, holier, asyou say.
So, lauren man, thanks again.
This has been such a joy, suchan honor really, at least for me
(53:15):
, to to have you on and to tolisten and to learn from you, my
friend.
Loren Marks (53:20):
Thanks so much for your time.
Appreciate you both, Wiz andDave I I.
I'm struck, you know, as weheard these narratives from
amazing couples, that most ofthem referenced other couples
that they were inspired by, andI think that, just like in
(53:42):
research, where we stand on theshoulders of giants, great
marriages often are inspired byother preceding great marriages
and hopefully we can keep thatchain alive.
Good point.
Dave Schramm (53:57):
Yeah, yours is one of those, lauren, for me, so
thank you for that.
Well, friends, that does it forus for another episode of the
Stronger Marriage Connectionpodcast.
We'll see you next time.
Liz Hale (54:07):
And remember friends.
It's the small things thatcreate a stronger marriage
connection.
Take good care of you and eachother.
Bye-bye now.
Dave Schramm (54:18):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(54:38):
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so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(55:00):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(55:23):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
Faith and religion play a major role in many
couples' lives, influencingeverything from what they eat,
drink and wear to how they raisetheir children, to where they
marry and how they worship.
On today's episode, dr Liz andI are joined by Dr Loren Marks
from Brigham Young University,and he helps direct the American
Families of Faith Project, aproject involving interviews
(00:24):
with 300 couples scatteredacross the country representing
a variety of religions.
He shares all kinds of lessonslearned, including quotes from
many of the couples theyinterviewed.
We discuss how beliefs,practices and religious
community can influencemarriages, and even how religion
can be harmful in somesituations, and even how
religion can be harmful in somesituations.
(00:46):
Dr Loren Marks is a professorin Brigham Young University's
School of Family Life and afellow at the Wheatley Institute
.
His research focuses onreligion and families, as well
as on African American families.
He has authored nearly 200scholarly articles and books.
His research on families hasreceived national media
attention from outlets includingthe New York Times, the
Washington Times, the BostonGlobe and the Wall Street
(01:08):
Journal.
He is co-director with DavidDahlheit of the American
Families of Faith ResearchProject.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Hey friends, welcome to anotherepisode of Stronger Marriage
Connection podcast.
I'm Dr Dave here at Utah StateUniversity alongside Dr Liz Hale
(01:29):
, our licensed clinicalpsychologist and therapist.
She's actually joining fromHawaii today.
Liz, I'm so jealous, gratefulthat you're joining with us
today.
I'm really excited about ourguest today.
We know Liz.
From ancient texts to modernresearch and in the lived
experiences of countless couples, faith and religion have served
(01:50):
as bedrock foundations forlasting marriages, these
spiritual connections.
They shape everything fromdaily routines to life's biggest
decisions, influencing howcouples parent, they navigate
challenges and build theirshared lives together.
Well, today we're delving deepinto this fascinating
intersection of faith andmarriage with someone who has
(02:12):
dedicated his career tounderstanding it Dr Lord Marks
from Brigham Young University.
Now, dr Lord Marks is adistinguished scholar in this
field, but he's not just that.
He's also a dear friend andcolleague who brings both
academic insight and personalwisdom to this vital
conversation.
Welcome to stronger marriageconnection, my friend lauren
(02:33):
thanks for having me.
Liz and dave appreciate it yeah,thanks for for joining us now,
laura, before we take a deeperdive into our discussion about
faith, religion and marriage,can you just give us a little
bit of a background about whyyou chose to study this
particular aspect of families?
Loren Marks (02:51):
Sure, the American Families of Faith Project is a
co-directed project withProfessor David Dallahide and
myself, and over the years we'vehad over 300 students,
wonderful students, who'vehelped make it possible as well.
But going back 25 years ago orso, we discovered that about
(03:13):
10,000 statistics-based studieson divorce had been conducted,
but that fewer than 300, or onlyabout 3% as many studies had
used in-depth interviews withwives and husbands in strong,
happy, exemplary marriages.
And so you know, in a phrase,we have tried to make the effort
(03:37):
to bring some balance to theforce, you might say, trying to
bring strong marriages a littlebit more to the foreground.
Dave Schramm (03:47):
Okay, wonderful, thank you.
Liz Hale (03:49):
There is something to be said for studying what is
working right, lauren and Dave,instead of what's not working,
and it's quite different, Iunderstand.
Well, we love that.
I don't know if you want to sayanything about that, but we
just love that you're involvedwith this American Families of
Faith Project, lauren, and whatabout your particular direction
or your aim in connection withmarriage?
(04:10):
Where do you come in, my friend?
Loren Marks (04:16):
It's been a joy In some ways.
The aim for me, I think, is thesame for many of the students
that work on this, for DaveDahlheit, and that is to figure
out how to build a championshipmarriage in a world where that
seems increasingly hard to pulloff.
(04:37):
And so the way that we'veapproached that essentially is
we have talked to the pointpeople, community leaders,
clergy around the country andhave said to a Jewish rabbi, to
a Muslim imam, to a Catholicpriest, a Baptist pastor we want
(04:57):
the strongest, the bestmarriage from your respective
congregation.
We would like to interview thewife and the husband together to
find out how they pulled it off, and usually these marriages
are 20 years plus and we sitdown with them in their home and
ask them what's the secretsauce, how did you make it work,
(05:21):
what challenges did you face?
And how did faith, in amultifaceted sense, how did
faith help make this possible?
And so that's the genesis ofthe project and it's what
continues to fascinate both Daveand myself, 25, 30 years into
this endeavor, and it's reallyintriguing to have students,
(05:45):
some of whom are not yet married, some of whom who are newly
married, be right in the mix,helping and contributing.
Liz Hale (05:54):
Wow, that is so cool.
What a compliment to be called,or to refer maybe to your own
marriage as a championshipmarriage.
Some days I could refer to mymarriage that way, other days or
other moments not so much.
I hope I'm not the only onethat feels that way.
Dave Schramm (06:08):
That's right.
Yeah, that's right.
One of the things I appreciateabout this is just the vastness.
This is not a limited sample,but you have all kinds of faiths
and backgrounds and Abrahamicfaiths, so let's really dial
into this.
I'm really curious about whatyou have found and how actually
(06:31):
religion can strengthen marriage.
You mentioned three distinctareas Religion can strengthen
beliefs, practices and community.
Can you walk us through each ofthose and give us some examples
?
Loren Marks (06:52):
Absolutely Been looking forward to this.
In a nutshell, liz and Dave,we've interviewed over 300
powerful marriages from aroundAmerica now.
They hail from over 20different faith communities.
Interestingly, we've got anumber of immigrants from
outside the US and more than 20different faith communities.
Interestingly, we've got anumber of immigrants from
outside the US and more than 20different nations are
represented as well.
Over half of the folks weinterviewed are from racial and
(07:15):
or ethnic minorities, and so itreally is a richly diverse
sample, which makes it even moreintriguing when we see things
that come up again and againfrom wives and husbands across
race, across religion, acrossregions of the country, and it
gives us additional confidencethat what they're talking about
(07:35):
might matter to many marriagesand not just their own.
I appreciate the three-facetedquestion about beliefs,
practices and communities.
In looking forward to gettingto visit with the two of you
today, I thought it might be alot more interesting to
introduce your listeners to manyof the families that we
(08:01):
actually interviewed.
We mentioned it's important totry to steer away from being a
diva soloist and letting therich voices of the choir sing.
So, if it's all right, I'll tapseveral of the wonderful women
and men that we've interviewedand share little pieces of their
story.
On the beliefs, note one waythat beliefs in general seem to
(08:28):
strengthen many of these strongmarriages is through what we've
come to call a shared familyvision.
One Arab Muslim wife namedNoreen told us, I think, that
religion affects our marriedlife, because on this point we
can agree.
The Ramadan fast, themonth-long fast in Islam, is
(08:52):
sacred.
When we both fast, we do ouractivities together, we break
the fast together and we wake upat midnight and eat before
fasting.
So we do these types of thingstogether.
That's how religion is makingour life and our marriage grow
together.
And there I end with her words,but I mentioned, noreen and her
(09:15):
husband were pretty open abouthaving ongoing, you know,
conflicts, about daily hassles,those kinds of things.
But Ramadan, this month-longfast, was something that they
looked to throughout the year topull their family together, to
pull their marriage together,and at the conclusion of this
highly disciplined one-monthfast, they, like other highly
(09:41):
devoted Muslims, would take azakat fast, an offering that was
given to the poor, and for somethis is as much as 2.5% of
their net worth not even justtalking about gross income for a
year, but net worth.
And for a college student youknow that I spend a lot of time
(10:04):
with 2.5% of the $20 bill theyhave in their wallet doesn't
sound like much, but forsomebody who's been stashing
away a nest egg for years andyears, this is the culminating
effort of the fast to give thisoffering of generosity to the
poor.
And I can't help but note thatif each of us were to follow
(10:30):
this kind of example and model,we'd eradicate world hunger in a
mighty hurry.
So wonderful to hear thatexample from a Muslim family.
On the note of the shared familyvision, a couple named Holly
and Jared, who are members ofthe Church of Jesus Christ of
(10:51):
Latter-day Saints, told us, interms of this shared family
vision, we know that we aregoing to be married forever.
We know that neither one of usis going anywhere, even if we're
having a miserable day or weekor month.
If it comes to that, we are notworried that the other person
is going to take off and we'renot worried that our marriage is
(11:12):
falling apart and whileoccasionally that might mean
that the two of us are takingeach other for granted, I think
that gives us a lot of security,knowing that the relationship
that you are building and thefamily you're building is
something that's going to lastforever.
And Holly's husband, jared,added.
I have to say these things myfaith are as much a part of me
(11:33):
as my arms, so I often don'tstop and think about them.
But the whole basis of ourrelationship is not that we're
just here to have fun now orthat we hope things will work
out for a while.
It's that we're building aneternal unit that Holly and I
are always going to be together.
The goals that we're aimedtowards are not just five years
(11:54):
down the road, it's eternity,eternity, eternity.
So, whether we're hearing fromNoreen or Holly and Jared, we
hear couples that have a sacredfocus and also a shared vision
about what family life is about.
So I'd say, on the beliefsfront, that's just a brief
(12:14):
snapshot from a couple ofdifferent families.
In terms of practices that youmentioned, dave, I love
practices, get very excitedabout them and in looking at
studies from across AmericanFamilies of Faith Project, we've
had several studies that haveindicated that some influential
practices include saying gracefor Protestant Christian
(12:38):
families, attending mass andsaying novenas, offering novenas
for Catholic Christians, familyhome evening and family worship
for members of the Church ofJesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints and the Shabbat meal andthe accompanying rituals of that
for Jewish families and, as wejust heard a moment ago, the
(12:58):
Ramadan fast for many Muslimfamilies, and in most cases,
across several studies, thesekinds of practices were
reportedly meaningful both forthe wives and mothers and the
husbands and fathers.
One practice that recurs asmeaningful across race, religion
(13:18):
and region is family prayer.
Family prayer Shanna, a Latina,christian mother of five, told
us, reflecting back on her life.
She said my neighbors from thetime I was the age of six, all
the way up till I was 10,.
They were born again Christiansand even though that's not the
(13:40):
denomination I'm in now, it's alittle bit similar to it.
Anyway, I felt different when Iwalked in their home.
They were really humble people.
They always wanted to helpothers.
They prayed as a familytogether.
They read the Bible together.
They were never out of placewith anything, it seemed.
It was different from anythingI'd ever seen.
(14:01):
There was peace as soon as I'dwalk into their home and I'd
just feel at ease.
And Shanna, in her interview,went on to mention that now, 30
years later in her life, sheprays with her children and her
husband like her neighbors did30 years previously and she
commented on some of thebenefits that she perceived from
(14:22):
that family practice and said aminute on some of the benefits
that she perceived from thatfamily practice and said family
prayer feels right, it feelsgood, it feels like this is what
every marriage and familyshould be doing.
I'm grateful to be able to dothat.
If my family I grew up with everwould have done that it would
have been a fond memory that Iwould have held, but we never
did.
But our family now should praymore.
(14:44):
But when we kneel together andhold hands as a family, it
brings a spirit of love into ourhome and makes the children
feel right and lets them knowthat this is what is right and
that this is what they need todo with their families.
I'm sure they'll remember it,and research elsewhere by other
scholars indicates that thesekinds of religious practices do
(15:09):
leave a lasting impression onmany not all, but on many kids
growing up.
Maybe I'll just share one morebrief one from a Jewish mother
(15:33):
who really, really impressed meconducting the interview,
talking about Shabbat or theJewish Sabbath, and she, sarah,
said Shabbat gives us a chanceto breathe, to relax.
We've had a busy week and here'sour time to be together, relax.
We've had a busy week andhere's our time to be together.
We always take a deep breathbefore we do this and let all
the thoughts, the craziness andworries and everything slip away
.
I think that when we take thetime out and when we light the
(15:56):
candles on Friday night, that'sa time that I feel really close
to my husband and to my twochildren.
When we sit across the tablefrom each other, my husband and
I, and the candles are lit andyou see the kids to your right
and to your left, there issomething you get from that that
is so deep.
It's just a feeling that all isright in the world, it doesn't
(16:18):
matter what else is going on.
Right in that circle, it'sawe-inspiring.
On Right in that circle it'sawe-inspiring.
And you know, liz and Dave, youcan almost see the candles lit
and the table.
Liz Hale (16:33):
Can't you Taking that time to set up that beautiful
picture?
And it just takes a little bitof effort, doesn't it?
Dave Schramm (16:40):
And intention We'll be right back after this
brief message, and we're back.
Let's dive right in and I was.
Liz Hale (16:59):
I was telling dave and rex not that long ago, lauren,
that you know my husband's not aman of many words, but I love
to hear him pray and it reallytouches my heart when he prays
for me.
There is something just verybeautiful about that.
I get to see him throughdifferent eyes, so I'm an easy
sell when it comes to faith,prayer, taking time out.
(17:22):
As we know, so many things canbe used against us.
Right as good as faith is,sometimes it can be a
double-edged sword.
How have you seen, lauren,where religion can actually harm
or divide marriages?
Loren Marks (17:39):
That's a really good question, and it does If
religion, especially when itburns hot in someone's heart, in
someone's life, heart insomeone's life, that same fire
(18:01):
that warms up the house, thesame fire that prepares a hot
dinner, can also burn when we gounwisely crashing through.
A few different thoughts abouthow religion can do some damage
if we're not careful.
Include, I think, a key phrasefrom one of our friends, Bill
Doherty, a leading maritaltherapist and researcher from
(18:23):
University of Minnesota, is thatwe have to be careful of what
Bill calls time affairs and, asopposed to sexual infidelity,
what Bill means by time affairsare investing time in anything
that becomes a detractor or adeterrent in the marriage and
(18:44):
that, if we're not careful, toomuch time with golf or hunting
or shopping, keeping up with thefashionistas you know, can
destroy marriage just as much assexual infidelity if that time
affair gets in the way.
What does it have to do withreligion?
(19:05):
Well, sometimes, if we're notcareful, religion, which can be
a wonderful influence for good,can become a time affair if we
get carried away with it and itends up being highly divisive
instead of unifying.
So that's something that weneed to keep an eye out wisely,
(19:27):
I think.
Another way that religion candivide if we're not careful was
captured by one of the greatfigures in 21st century Judaism,
the late Rabbi Jonathan Sachs,and he said religion is at its
best when it relies on thestrength of example.
(19:47):
It is at its worst when itseeks to impose truth by force.
End of direct quote.
And so when we have somethingthat we feel passionately about,
it can be easy to becomecoercive and damage arises when
we take that kind of approach.
(20:11):
In some of the American Familiesof Faith research that Dave
Dallahay and I have done againand again, it comes up that we
need to balance wisely religiousfirmness and conviction with a
flexibility, a relationalflexibility, and that we need to
be careful about not being toorigid.
(20:34):
If we don't have some structure, we're likely to lose religious
ritual altogether andcommitment, and that's not what
many religious folks want.
They want to have structure,but we need to adapt and be
sensitive to the needs of thosearound us of those around us.
(21:00):
To tell a negative story onmyself, Years ago we tried to do
a study of sacred texts eachday as a family, and it seemed
like we'd slipped into a modewhere we were reading and not
really studying and discussing.
And so I thought how can wespruce this up a little bit?
And so for about a week we'dread and then we'd have a Q&A
session and that seemed to gogreat for three or four days and
then it died and fizzled and weasked our kids I said you guys
(21:25):
were asking some great questionsa few days ago, why are you not
doing that now?
And our 10 year old son at thatpoint in time, Logan, said well
, because, dad, um, now everytime we ask a question you just
ramble on forever.
And we realized you know, Ishould have known better.
(21:46):
And so now what we try to do isgo ahead and and cover a couple
pages and then go around thehorn and have everybody share
something that was meaningfulpersonally to them, to try to
keep the study in place, beingfirm, but to have a more
flexible approach.
So I think that there are anumber of ways that religion can
(22:10):
do harm if we're not wise andcareful and relational in our
approach to it.
Dave Schramm (22:16):
I like the way that you put that, lorne.
It reminds me of something thatWally Goddard you're familiar
with, wally, and a lot of goodwork that he has done we've had
him on.
He talked about the differencein ritual in a relationship.
He says sometimes we can get soinvolved in whatever it is
religiously that we just do itout of habit.
We get into this routineinstead of the relationship with
(22:38):
the divine, relationship withwith others, and so that's,
that's very perceptive.
Yeah, you kind of think, okay,are we going through motions or
is this a an active?
Yeah, are we striving to deepenrelationship?
Any, any thoughts there?
Loren Marks (22:52):
Yeah, like you, dave, I love Wally.
I think he has tremendousinsight, both personally and as
a researcher.
I think that he is ontosomething there and, wisely,
bearing in mind what we holdsacred religiously and also what
we hold dear relationally, andand trying to find the golden
(23:15):
mean, the hybrid between the two, is what the wisest, I think,
and the best of the couples thatwe interviewed shared with us
and, you know, with some, youknow dangers that come with
religion.
I think it is critical to note.
You know, for example, in asocial context with a faith
(23:38):
community, there are manybenefits where we can learn from
, learn how to do this, how toblend relationships and religion
wisely and well.
Wherever we're at Faithcommunity, wise, there are
models that we can look aroundand draw from Not perfect ones,
but exemplary ones.
(23:59):
One of the benefits you knowbeing in a faith community is
you tend to have a couple who'sfive years ahead of you in the
lifespan and you can get apreview at what's coming.
Five years from now, ten yearsfrom now, 10 years from now.
There's probably one of thosecouples in your congregation and
if you're young and fortunate,you may have someone 40 years
(24:22):
ahead of you and so you have alived model of wisdom and how to
blend relationships and faithtogether in ways that can work.
Many of the couples that we'veinterviewed have referred to
this as the strength and supportof a church family.
(24:47):
If I can just drop a couplenarratives there, an
African-American couple that weinterviewed in New Orleans not
too long after Hurricane Katrinahit down there shared this with
us.
This is from a father namedLucius.
He said after Hurricane Katrina, when I was sick, we had two
(25:09):
friends.
This is a married couple sick.
We had two friends.
This is a married couple whocame to my wife and told her if
you need money, it's not aproblem.
And they were wealthy people,they had money.
So if we had said yeah, wewould have gotten it.
It was not just a remark, itwas something they would have
done.
Fortunately, we struggledthrough financially some kind of
(25:31):
way without having to go tothem.
But that's kindness you do notsee every day.
This is from a differentmarriage, but another Christian
family in Louisiana said this ismemorable for me.
I remember this well, eventhough it took place years ago.
Remember this well, even thoughit took place years ago.
(25:54):
They said when it looked badfor us like we might lose our
home.
Another church member stoodbehind me and said he would be
there to help us if our housewas ever at risk.
I knew that he would take careof us and nothing would happen
as far as our home.
I felt like God put me in thatplace to have someone else take
(26:15):
care of me.
That's the end of that narrative.
But again, if I can refer toBill Doherty as a wise head in
our field, bill's talked abouthow there are friends of us as
individuals, as a wife, as ahusband, as a person, but we
(26:36):
need to come to cherish whatBill calls friends of the
marriage, individuals who have asupportive, invested commitment
to seeing us thrive in ourmarriages.
And I can't think of a bettercouple examples to send your way
or to our listeners than tostop and reflect that someone
(26:59):
who could offer thousands,perhaps tens of thousands of
dollars to a sister or brotherin their church family is the
same kind of person who wouldsupport you spiritually,
relationally, emotionally, asyou're trying to figure out how
to weather life storms as amarried couple as well.
Dave Schramm (27:19):
That's powerful, lauren, as I think, as you've
reviewed some of these beliefswhich turn you know, practices,
things that individuals, thecouples, the families do, and
then the protective factor ofthe community of being there, of
showing up, of helping andrelying on one another.
(27:39):
Powerful, powerful concepts,thank you.
Something else that you havesaid you say that every marriage
is an interfaith marriage.
Tell us more about what youmean by that.
Loren Marks (27:53):
Yeah, I wish I could take credit for that
statement.
It is true, I think DaveDahlheit and I both believe this
.
We've both seen it in our ownmarriages.
But you know, in some ways theshort version of this is that
even if you as spouses grew upin the same church, on the same
(28:14):
street, maybe even next door toeach other, there can still be
significant differences in termsof devotion, in interpretation,
in practice.
Scholar who's worked with us onAmerican Families of Faith,
originally from China, aChristian convert from China
(28:41):
discovered in our AmericanFamilies of Faith interviews a
tendency or trend that shereferred to as matched level
faith marriages and what shemeans by that.
In contrast, or in addition tothe concept of within-faith
marriage, that you can check thesame box the Baptist and
(29:04):
Baptist boxes as wife andhusband in a marriage.
But because there are suchvarying levels of devotion and
commitment, you can haveessentially an interfaith
marriage even though you go tothe same church on Sunday or one
of you goes and one of youdoesn't.
In terms of this matched levelfaith that we interviewed, they
(29:32):
were aware and respectful,highly respectful of their
spouse's beliefs and practicesand approaches that in some ways
mirrored their own and in someways were different, but I think
that's something interestingfor us to consider that, even
though interfaith marriage getsa lot of attention and play that
(29:53):
, there's this matched level, uh, faith that that also comes
into play.
And for many people of faith,when they hear that concept and
think about it, say, oh yeah,I've, I've seen that my whole
life, I just didn't have a nameto give to it.
Yeah.
Dave Schramm (30:08):
Yeah, that is that's just thinking about.
That is interesting.
Let me ask you then, lauren, afollow up to that Is the goal
necessarily to bring you to theexact same level of belief and
ritual practice, or is it tohonor and respect where your
partner or spouse is as you growtogether, and it may be
(30:29):
slightly different journeys orexperiences that you have.
Does that make sense?
Loren Marks (30:34):
It does.
It's an excellent question.
I think, of the wisdom of aQuaker proverb which says you
lift me and I will lift thee,and together we will ascend.
I love the idea there and thiscomes up in some of our
(30:55):
interviews across faith, by theway an idea of a divine triangle
where a wife may be coming upone apex, the husband up another
apex of a triangle, and theirwalk is not identical.
They're individual elements andyet as they strive towards a
shared God, they do converge astime goes on.
(31:21):
But there still has to berespect, give and take, conflict
resolution, some patience, someholy envy for strengths that
one partner may have whereanother is weak, and so forth.
So it's a great question.
Many of these couples and thisis something that I think
(31:43):
qualifies as one of the mostimportant findings that we came
across is that great marriageswere not and are not always
great.
Liz, you kind of referencedthis, you know, I think, in our
conversation earlier.
Some days are championship dayswith your husband and you know,
(32:04):
in my case, some days when I gohome as a family studies
professor and do the take homeexam as a dad and husband, I'm
afraid I get some D's and F'salong the way.
And many of these couples werepretty authentic and transparent
and saying look, the first one,two, three, seven years of our
(32:26):
marriage were a struggle ingrowing pains, trying to figure
out how to turn two me's intoone.
We and.
Were it not for faith, both ofus would have jumped ship and
some of them got quite emotional.
Liz, you mentioned earlier whatan honor it must be to be
(32:47):
selected by your clergy saying,hey, this wife and husband,
they're a championship team,interview them.
Your clergy is saying, hey,this wife and husband, they're a
championship team, interviewthem.
And as we told them that, somebecame pretty emotional and said
if you had told us that we'd behere at year two or three in
our marriage, when we werestruggling, struggling hard to
(33:11):
overcome selfishness andpettiness, we never would have
believed it.
And yet, 14, 20, 25, 30 yearsin, they'd figured out how to
turn two me's into one we.
Liz Hale (33:26):
That's so tender that makes me cry.
It's beautiful.
Wow.
We'd love to know more.
Learn about some of the mostimportant findings about
Marriage for the AmericanFamilies and Faith Project.
How we love that project.
What have you learned over theyears?
That applies to marriage inparticular.
So you've said so many greatthings.
Are there any other nuggets?
(33:48):
Just about your own marriageand marriages that you see
around you in your own family orthe students?
Um, what, what else?
What else, my friend?
Loren Marks (33:57):
thanks.
Thanks for asking, liz.
Um, in terms of my family oforigin, one of one of my
favorite stories uh from my dad.
Uh is uh from my dad is onethat took place back in the 70s
and at this point in time, youknow this is a different time,
(34:27):
obviously, but my mom and my dadhad three different children in
cloth diapers at the same timeand their washing machine broke.
They were at poverty levelexistence at this point.
They didn't have enough moneyto get the washing machine fixed
, much less have a new onepurchased, and they were I mean,
(34:54):
this was a real crisis.
It's August and you've got threekids in cloth diapers and no
money.
Washing machine's not aconvenience, it's a you know red
alarm emergency.
And my dad came home from workone day and there was a washing
machine on the front porch andhe lifted up the lid and there
(35:20):
was an envelope with a hundreddollar bill inside taped to the
underside of the lid.
No note, just this, and then awash bin full of detergent.
Just this and then a wash binfull of detergent, really
(35:44):
quickly, without boring anybody.
If we run the economics on that, we're talking about four or
five hundred dollars in the cashalone in today's currency.
And my dad teared up.
He said he felt somethinginside him break, such gratitude
for the kindness of anindividual or family who would
do this.
And he and my mom sworesomething of an oath to each
(36:04):
other that there would be a daywhen they would be in a position
to help others in the way thatthey'd been lifted in their
faith community, in theircommunity in rural Oregon,
outside of their church as well.
And I hesitate to say thisbecause my dad wouldn't want me
to, but in some ways this is thepoint.
(36:26):
The day did come.
When they broke through, youknow a poverty level, existence
and the way that they approachedthe remainder of their life is
they bought used cars but whenthey figured they got their
money's worth out of a vehicle,they would look around them in
the faith community or thebroader community and find a
(36:46):
family that needed a car andjust give it away.
I don't know how many they'vegiven away to this point.
To my knowledge it's probablysomewhere between 12 and 15,
maybe as high as 20.
But in terms of pure and livedreligion, loving God and loving
(37:07):
your neighbor is sacred inalmost every world tradition, is
sacred in almost every worldtradition.
And when a marriage can rely onfaith and then turn and give
some of that strength to othersin the faith community, in the
(37:32):
broader community, outside ofthe faith community, those are
situations where everybody winsand naturally you don't have to
belong to a faith community todo that.
But the faith community doescreate a structured,
intentionally fabricated contextfor giving and receiving in a
covenant community wherepromises have been made in the
(37:54):
marriage, to the family, to thefaith community, to sisters and
brothers in that faith communitysacred covenants, to behave in
ways that try to approximate theGod that's believed in, and I
find that deeply inspiring andhope to be more like that.
Dave Schramm (38:15):
We'll be right back after this brief message,
and we're back, let's dive rightin.
Well, lauren, as we wrap uphere our discussion, we'd like
to ask all of our guests aquestion, and the question we
(38:39):
ask is what do you feel like isthe key to a stronger marriage
connection?
Loren Marks (38:48):
Boy, there are thousands to choose from, as you
two are well aware in yourprofessional life.
If you were to pin me down, Ithink one might be the big C
versus little c commitment.
(39:09):
Again, this is something thatour colleague, bill Doherty's,
talked about as well, along withseveral other researchers, but
we found it to be particularlypowerful in the championship
marriages that we have had thechance to step onto sacred
ground with Big C.
Commitment with a capital Cmeans commitment, no matter what
(39:30):
.
Little C commitment iscommitment as long as dot dot
dot, as long as they don't findsomebody who's better looking or
whose hair hasn't fallen outlike mine has, who makes more
money, who's healthier, etcetera.
And increasingly we see thatkind of provisional commitment.
(39:52):
But with big C commitment, thisbuy-in of commitment, no matter
what, a level of loyalty, ofintegrity, that is held sacred
by both wife and husband, Ithink that that kind of
commitment, wife and husband, Ithink that that kind of
(40:13):
commitment, that kind of trust,can cover a multitude of ills,
including stupid things that wedo and say every day in marriage
and life.
That can get us by.
Maybe the most potent example Ican give you of big C versus
little c commitment comes from acouple named JD and Betsy.
(40:34):
They're an African-Americancouple from Wisconsin and in
2005, so 20 years ago Betsy, whohad already raised some
biological children but also hadfive foster children she, was
struck by a drunk driver andlost her legs, her mobility and
(40:55):
her ability to communicateclearly after an extended coma.
As I interviewed them, both ofthem explained to me that they
didn't have time to hate nobodyand that they'd forgiven the
drunk driver.
And at that point in theinterview, jd turned from me to
(41:15):
Betsy, sensitive to a commentthat she'd made, that she
wouldn't blame him if he ranaway from her in their
profoundly difficult situation.
And at that part, jd told Betsyand I'm going to read this
because I want to get it justright JD told Betsy and I'm
going to read this because Iwant to get it just right he
said you know, like I told you,I said till death, do us part.
(41:36):
Elsewhere in the interview hesays till death, do us part, and
forever after that, continuingwith his words I am going to be
here.
I want you to be here for metoo.
That's what my mother told me.
She said before we got married.
Son, you've got to listen tothe words.
That's what my mama said.
If you are truly really readyto get married, you've got to
(42:00):
listen to the words.
That's what I did.
I listened, that's what I wantit to be till death.
Do us part and forever afterthat.
That's where I want ourrelationship to be.
I'm always going to have yourback and I want you to have mine
.
And this afternoon, liz and Dave, like every other day, jd will
(42:24):
pick Betsy up.
He'll put her into herwheelchair.
He'll take her down theelevator in their apartment
building and he'll take her intoher wheelchair.
He'll take her down theelevator in their apartment
building and he'll take her fora drive Her only real taste of
freedom.
Each day.
20 years he's been doing that.
Jd understands what big Ccommitment means, and our
(42:46):
American Families of Faith team,including the 300 students
who've worked with us over theyears.
We are so profoundly gratefulfor marriages like JD's and
Betsy's that don't show usperfection, but they do show us
exemplary levels of commitmentand devotion, love, integrity
(43:07):
and trust.
Devotion, love, integrity andtrust.
And hopefully the livedinvitation that they offer
through their examples willinspire us to new heights in our
own marriages.
Liz Hale (43:22):
Wow, that's something.
Wow, you have been so.
You blessed us so much today,Lauren.
So much good information.
Where can we all go to find outmore about you and your
research, please?
Loren Marks (43:36):
thank you for asking, liz uh.
American families of faith.
If you just punch that intoyour your google search engine,
I'll give you our website, andthere are a couple hundred
different resources, rangingfrom video shorts of a minute to
fuller length articles.
Some of these are public facing, some of them are more academic
(43:59):
in tone and based on the hardresearch, but we hope that
you'll draw strength fromfamilies like JD's and Betsy's.
You know it's interesting.
(44:20):
I have been so moved by thesefamilies.
It's been the great experienceof my professional life to be
able to go to work and to learnfrom families like these.
And I would say to those outthere yes, we're familiar with
the divorce statistics.
We know that there are a lot ofthings that are difficult in
(44:41):
life, but there is profound andreal hope in examples of
everyday heroes to our right andto our left, and many of those
can be found in faithcommunities.
Um that, that's been a blessingfor me wow, so powerful, lauren
(45:01):
.
Dave Schramm (45:01):
Hey, another question we ask, um all of our
guests is just a takeaway of theday.
Is there a takeaway, uh,something you want our listeners
to remember from our discussiontoday?
Loren Marks (45:15):
Thanks, thanks, dave.
If I can share a personalexperience, as opposed to one
from one of our 300 marvelousmarriages marriages I just feel
incomplete without doing amarriage-related podcast,
without talking about mysweetheart of almost 30 years,
(45:37):
sandra, and I will say that,having taught at three different
universities across time, oftenI'll ask a question
confidentially near the end ofthe semester and ask students to
take out a blank piece of paper, not to put their name on it
and to write a response to thequestion what is your greatest
fear about marriage?
(45:57):
About 85% of the studentswho've responded over the years
have said my greatest fear isthat my spouse, my future spouse
, will cheat on me, and most ofthe remaining 15% say I'm
worried that I'll cheat on myfuture spouse.
(46:18):
So the crux here takes us backto the big C commitment, and
often I will share the followinglove story from my own life,
and in short, it goes like thisOne of the great love stories
from my life.
I think about 20 years ago mywife ran to a Kmart store and
(46:45):
was buying a number of groceries, including a sink fixture
replacement for a house a numberof groceries, including a sink
fixture replacement for ourhouse and when I came home from
work that day, as I came throughthe door, sandra rushed and she
said I've got to go to Kmart,I'll explain when I get back.
And I said I thought that yousaid you went to Kmart earlier
today.
(47:05):
And she said I did, but I'llexplain when I get back.
So I find out later the rest ofthe story.
Sandra went back to Kmart, wentto the customer service line and
said to the customer servicerep hey, I got home and I
discovered that this $52 sinkfixture was not showing up on my
(47:26):
receipt.
You didn't charge me for it.
And the lady at the customerservice counter didn't even know
what to tell her.
Apparently, this is not acomplaint.
They feel the whole lot at thecustomer service counter.
You know not getting charged.
And so Sandra said tell youwhat?
How about I just go backthrough the checkout line as
(47:46):
though I'm paying for it for thefirst time, which in fact I am.
You guys get your money and myconscience is clear.
And the customer service galsays whatever lady.
And then I tell the studentsthat is one of the great love
stories of my life and theythink hey, come on, that's not
(48:08):
even PG-13.
Where do you see that as agreat love story.
And then I remind them that for85% of them their greatest
concern is that their futurespouse will cheat on them.
And I say, not knowing my wife,just hearing that one story,
how much sleep do you think Ilose over worrying about whether
(48:31):
my wife is faithful to me ornot?
And there's often a pregnantpause.
And then someone will say none.
And I say why?
And they'll say well, becauseshe was faithful to the cashier
at Kmart.
I mean, she took the sink back.
(48:51):
And then I'll say that's right,she took the saint back to have
(49:13):
integrity, to live up to thosepromises, those covenants that
we make.
And that when we do that,through what Dave Dahl, hyatt
and I call the principle oflived invitation namely our
behavior is permission to othersto behave similarly, but it is
more than that, it is aninvitation to do so that through
(49:39):
that principle of livedinvitation, when we live up to
our covenants, our commitments,when we take the sink back,
there are benefits that comefrom that kind of integrity that
bless not only our own marriageor our own children, our own
home, but that permeate societyand instill in each of us a
(50:02):
desire to be our best self.
So on that note, I think I'dclose up with a statement from
Judaism that marriage is aninvitation to increased holiness
, and to be married to a womanlike Sandra it is that it's not
(50:23):
perfect, we both make mistakesevery day, but nevertheless
there is an ongoing invitationto holiness.
And back to our Quaker friendsyou lift me and I'll lift thee
and together we will ascend.
Thanks so much for having me,you two.
I appreciate your work,appreciate the messages on the
(50:44):
podcast, past and present.
Thanks for all the good workyou're doing with Utah Marriage
Commission, etc thank you somuch, lauren.
Dave Schramm (50:53):
This has been past and present.
Thanks for all the good workyou're doing with Utah Marriage
Commission et cetera.
Thank you so much, lauren.
This has been so helpfulbeneficial, inspiring even.
Liz Hale (51:04):
Liz, do you have a takeaway?
You know, I was just thinkingbefore.
Lauren even said it was notabout perfection.
I love that reminder because Ithink sometimes we can really
get discouraged.
We know our faults and ourweaknesses right.
Our blind spots come up andcatch us off guard, and yet it's
really about the big Ccommitment.
It's the commitment every dayto do a little bit better, to
lift each other, to be morecommitted, to be more loving, to
(51:24):
be more forgiving.
It's just such a message ofhope.
Today, lauren, and I've heardyour Take Back the Sink story.
I'm so glad to make theconnection that that was yours.
I will never forget that.
I read that years ago, somehow,some way, and now to see her
today is just such an honor.
Dave, my friend, what about therichest nugget that you're
(51:47):
taking away today with our timewith Dr Lauren Marks?
Yeah, yeah.
Dave Schramm (51:51):
This has been, this has been in the Lord.
I mean when I say this has beeninspiring, and I think that
that's what faith can do forpeople is to help them to live
better, holier, outside ofthemselves.
I think religion and faith alot of the theme in my mind as
you read these narratives isit's, is it helps them to search
(52:12):
inward and then to turn outward.
Right, it's not about them andI think that sometimes, without
(52:51):
something higher hol myself,that faith helps me to search
inward, to turn outward, totreat others differently,
including my wife and my, bringmeaning and hope and help us
through the tough and throughthe hard and through the
challenges.
It can bring us hope and helpus in our lives to treat others
differently, higher, holier, asyou say.
So, lauren man, thanks again.
This has been such a joy, suchan honor really, at least for me
(53:15):
, to to have you on and to tolisten and to learn from you, my
friend.
Loren Marks (53:20):
Thanks so much for your time.
Appreciate you both, Wiz andDave I I.
I'm struck, you know, as weheard these narratives from
amazing couples, that most ofthem referenced other couples
that they were inspired by, andI think that, just like in
(53:42):
research, where we stand on theshoulders of giants, great
marriages often are inspired byother preceding great marriages
and hopefully we can keep thatchain alive.
Good point.
Dave Schramm (53:57):
Yeah, yours is one of those, lauren, for me, so
thank you for that.
Well, friends, that does it forus for another episode of the
Stronger Marriage Connectionpodcast.
We'll see you next time.
Liz Hale (54:07):
And remember friends.
It's the small things thatcreate a stronger marriage
connection.
Take good care of you and eachother.
Bye-bye now.
Dave Schramm (54:18):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(54:38):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
(55:00):
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(55:23):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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