June 9, 2025 • 62 mins
Dr. Alexandra Stockwell shares her journey from physician to intimacy coach and reveals how couples can create passionately intimate marriages through authenticity rather than compromise. She offers transformative insights on cultivating everyday eroticism, communicating with kindness, and deepening emotional connection to enhance sensual experiences.
• Developing "everyday eroticism" by making conscious choices to embody sensuality in daily activities
• Distinguishing between "nice" communication that suppresses authenticity and "kind" communication that honors both partners
• Understanding how "uncompromising intimacy" creates more passion than traditional compromises
• Identifying different types of conversations and framing them clearly for better understanding
• Using the question "How old do I feel right now?" to recognize when younger parts of ourselves are driving reactions
• Maintaining genuine curiosity about your partner through intentional questions
• Focusing on quality rather than quantity for both physical intimacy and date nights
• Recognizing that having a fantastic relationship is a learnable skill that anyone can develop
Visit alexandrastockwell.com to learn about Dr. Stockwell's coaching programs, book "Uncompromising Intimacy," and podcast "The Intimate Marriage Podcast."
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Dr. Dave Schramm:
Dr. Liz Hale:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Dave Schramm (00:04):
On today's episode.
Dr Liz and I welcome DrAlexandra Stockwell to the show.
She offers some helpful tipsfrom genuine kindness to
vulnerability and openness andcommunication, and even not
settling for compromise when itcomes to differences in intimacy
and you'll love her brilliantquestions.
She teaches all of her clientswhen they're feeling hurt or
(00:24):
frustrated.
Dr Alexandra Stockwell, knownas the Intimacy Doctor, is a
physician and relationship coachwho helps high-achieving
couples create emotionallyconnected, passionately intimate
marriages.
Author of the best-selling bookUncompromising Intimacy and
host of the Intimate MarriagePodcast, she has been married
for 28 years and is a mother offour.
(00:46):
Dr Alexandra teaches thatlasting passion comes not from
compromise but from authenticity.
Featured in the New York Times,cosmopolitan, rolling Stone and
more.
She empowers couples to builddeeply nourishing relationships
that model love and fulfillmentfor the next generation.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Dr. Liz Hale (01:11):
Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection.
I'm psychologist, dr Liz Hale,along with the esteemed
professor, dr Dave Schramm.
Together, we have dedicated ourlife's work to bringing you the
best we have in valid maritalresearch, along with a few tips
and tools to help you create themarriage of your dreams.
What a terrific interview today, dave.
(01:31):
I'm really excited about this.
You know, as a physician andintimate marriage expert, for
the past two decades, drAlexandra Stockwell has been
guiding men and women towardsbringing pleasure and purpose
into all aspects of life, butespecially sensual intimacy.
She has coached hundreds ofclients on how to experience
exuberance and joy, andeverything from the daily grind
(01:54):
of running a household tocreating ecstatic experiences in
the bedroom.
It seems time that we have sucha key conversation on ecstatic
sensual intimacy.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection, dr Alexandra
Stockwell.
What a joy.
Alexandra Stockwell (02:08):
Thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here andI'm excited for our conversation
.
Dr. Liz Hale (02:14):
Well, first of all , my friend, you practice what
you coach in your own marriage,which we so respect, and I must
just say how much I love how youtraded in you said your old
kitchen apron for this beautiful, flirty, fun French-made apron.
I thought that was lovely.
So you allowing our sensualself to show up starts with
(02:36):
giving ourselves permission toenhance our femininity as women,
for starters.
Is that right?
Alexandra Stockwell (02:44):
Yes, although that's not really how
it came to me, in fact, the verymoment when I did get rid of my
functional kind of full coverfrumpy apron and trade it with a
French maid apron that'sfunctional it's actually hard to
find a French maid's apronthat's like flirty and actually
(03:08):
does the job.
It's not just a costume.
But that all began so, as yousay, I've been married.
I've been married 29 years nowand I have four children.
And at the time that I'mthinking of, we had kind of an
open concept home.
So I was cooking in the kitchenand the children were playing
in the living room but it wasall one big space with kind of
(03:29):
an island separating them and itwas a hard day.
I think my youngest was maybefive months and they were
squabbling and it just was ahard day, as happens in family
life and parenting.
And so I was at the stovecooking dinner and I was
(03:51):
sauteing onions with a woodenspoon on my you know in the
frying pan and I was just movingthat spoon.
I was so angry and I was tightand it was like I was pushing it
back and forth.
The spoon was a conveyor of howpissy I felt inside and
(04:14):
suddenly it occurred to me thatthese onions were going to cook
just as well if I enjoyed it.
On know, onions have such astrong aroma.
I wasn't cooking somethingbland and I just moved into more
elegant movements, moreconnected movements.
(04:37):
I found myself breathing moredeeply and kind of swaying side
to side with my hips and I justrealized I could actually enjoy
that moment.
And there was a lot that cameto me in that.
First of all, it was my choiceand I think that's really the
(05:00):
most important thing that Icould be angry moving those
onions around the pan.
Or I could feel like a womanenjoying the aroma, enjoying the
fact that I inhabit a body likeit was an invitation to a rich
sensual experience for my senses, not sexual, sexual, of course,
(05:22):
but sensual.
And then I didn't want to be ina frumpy apron like let's go
all the way and enjoy it.
I didn't in that moment put onheels and lipstick to saute my
onions, but I have on subsequentdays.
Really, this was one of theorigin moments of what I've come
(05:45):
to call everyday eroticism,because my journey is that
really for the first eight yearsof my marriage I had what I
call functional sex, whereeverything was happening, but it
wasn't ecstatic.
We didn't feel closerafterwards.
It was nothing like what thepoets describe and once I had
(06:08):
learned how to really heatthings up and align things and
really look forward to times inthe bedroom with my husband, it
just seemed so sad to me thatafter all the attention and
intentionality and individualand collective growth to achieve
really passionate times in thebedroom, that that would only
(06:32):
happen when he was done withwork and I was done with work
and the kids were in bed andneither one of us was stressed
and the house was cleaned up.
It just went from the wholepotential to just such a small
amount of time.
And while I was sautéing thoseonions I realized, oh, I'm not
(06:54):
looking to have sex all the time, but I am looking to feel good
like a sensual, passionatelyfulfilled woman a lot of the
time.
Dr. Liz Hale (07:08):
So that was when I traded in my apron.
That is very cool.
So I mean, it's really aboutit's about our brains anyway,
right it's.
Alexandra Stockwell (07:14):
It's how we show up we're sexual beings
it's about our brains, but it isnot a mental shift.
I mean sure, it's a choice howwe feel, but I really want to
emphasize that.
I really think the shift is inrelation to being embodied, that
we can accomplish so much,feeling sort of like brains
(07:38):
moving through our lives, and,yes, we can change our thoughts.
But it's about you know.
It mattered that I startedswaying my hips, that I allowed
the aroma of the onions to berich for my senses to start
experience and the sustainedimpact happens in the body with
the sense experiences.
That's beautiful.
Dr. Liz Hale (08:14):
Especially for the femininity.
I really get that Then, withmasculinity for men.
Is that similar?
Alexandra Stockwell (08:21):
Well, I have yet to meet a man who has
had a transformation throughsauteing onions.
So let me just say that veryclearly.
Won't be that.
I think the journey isdifferent, and because most
listeners are women, I'mactually going to share the
following.
So once I tapped into this,this way of being where I felt
(08:44):
so much better, I then reallybecame a researcher in my own
home, because that very eveningwhen I served dinner my husband
and I are sitting across fromone another with two kids on
either side it suddenly occurredto him to me in I don't know
exactly at that point maybe 15years of marriage that every
(09:07):
time I sat down to dinner withhim since we first became
parents that I either ignoredhim, because my husband is a
grown-up and can manage himselfat the table and the kids needed
my attention, or I interactedwith him as a helpful co-parent.
But I had not once sat down toa family dinner and looked at
(09:29):
this man as the sexy, attractive, wonderful man who is my lover
in life.
And so I made once again aninternal shift with my mind, but
I felt it in my body.
Once again an internal shiftwith my mind, but I felt it in
my body and, to my amazement, hestarted interacting with me
(09:51):
differently, with everything.
I never told him what I wasdoing it was a private, entirely
discreet research experimentbut suddenly he started giving
me more attention and a kind ofattention that felt really good,
and he asked me questions hehadn't asked before and I think
I personally had some kind of ataboo that it wasn't right to
(10:16):
cultivate the marital connectionin front of the children, that
that wouldn't be healthy forthem.
But I was experimenting thatday and, to my surprise, as I
connected with my husband and,yes, he did respond with more
masculinity.
In other words, there was moreof that polarity which
contributes to chemistry.
(10:37):
But it happened naturally as aconsequence of the shift that I
made and he responded to, ourchildren were calmer, there was
much less minding your mannersneeded during that dinner, and
so what I found was that mychanging and showing up in a way
(10:58):
that I'm comfortable being awoman rather than just a manager
, uncomfortable being a womanrather than just a manager then
he really responded to that, andso did the children, and they
never knew until my children,who are young adults, now read
(11:25):
my book and found out about itin the story that I share in my
book on compromising intimacy.
But I think I'll say one morething, because I now have
programs for men and I think oneof the most important things is
that for men particularly whowant more physical connection
with their wives, they oftencome Well, their wives they
(11:49):
often come well.
There's, of course, masculinebravado where, you know, many,
many of the exposures in societyteach men to show up and feel
entitled and expect things whichdoesn't tend to work or anyway
feel good.
So then good men tend tocompensate and go into something
I call desperate acquiescence,where their bid for more
(12:12):
connection, physical connection,attention, affection, often
feels sort of needy and clingyand desperate and almost like
wanting paternal approval, whichjust is not a recipe for good
sexual chemistry.
(12:32):
And so for a man sometimes itfeels good to aim for more
masculinity, but sometimes thatcan be unnecessarily
intimidating, and so the thing Ilike to say to men instead is,
rather than looking forvalidation and affirmation from
your wife and then feelingbetter, to shift your energy so
(12:57):
you feel better and then bringthat to the interaction.
So I tend to talk more aboutpositive vitality and good
energy, because masculinity hasso many different associations
and sometimes it's helpful, buta lot of times it sort of gets
(13:18):
in the way with showing up inthe way that, yes, between the
three of us and everyonelistening is more masculine.
Dr. Liz Hale (13:27):
I got it.
It's really crucial todistinguish the two.
And going back to the power ofa woman, right, I think we do
want our listeners to reallyembrace that.
Alexandra Stockwell (13:39):
Yes, and I think we often think and there
is truth in saying it takes twopeople for a good marriage.
They both have to really bededicated.
That is true, but it is so muchmore than people usually think
that can happen when one personmakes genuine change, because
(14:00):
that shifts the whole dynamic,and then the other person ends
up responding too, unlessthey're really stubborn.
Dr. Liz Hale (14:08):
The power of a partner.
Just one right, that's right,that's right.
Oh gosh, because there's notenough hours in the day to
discuss this crucial topic.
What are the key elements, drAlexandra, for developing an
ecstatic sensual intimacy?
If you had to just give us ashort version, what would it be
If?
Alexandra Stockwell (14:23):
you had to just give us a short version,
what would it be?
Well, in the context oflong-term committed relationship
, I think it's actually quitehelpful to look at everything
that isn't ecstatic sensualityand sex as functioning like
(14:43):
foreplay.
In other words, everything,every little interaction brings
you a little closer together ora lot or a little further apart.
And the thing is that emotionalintimacy it's not always enough
, but it definitely is aprerequisite for ecstatic,
sensual intimacy, because it'snot the physical act that opens
(15:26):
our hearts and fuels our lives,it's the physical act coupled
with presence, attention,connection, attention put on
nurturing emotional depth.
We're not magic creatures thatwe can be sort of disconnected
in our day-to-day lives.
We can be sort of disconnectedin our day-to-day lives even if
things look pretty good, but Imean below the waterline, kind
(15:53):
of disconnected.
There's no magic switch thatwhen we get to the bedroom it
suddenly flips and we can befully present and open our
hearts and open our legs andjust feel ecstatic together.
That requires not having all ofthese blocks in our day-to-day
interaction.
So actually when I work withcouples this is anecdotal, but
(16:13):
maybe I don't know 75-80% of thetime working on emotional
intimacy just paves the way forreally sensual ecstatic
experiences, and then, 20-25% ofthe time, I do get into the
specifics of touch and howpeople are interacting in the
(16:34):
bedroom, but it's really how youfeel with one another that
makes so much possible, and Ithink we tend to miss that if we
watch rom-coms or porn or evenchurch teachings.
How to genuinely developemotional intimacy is really, I
(16:59):
think, the prime place to putattention if you want ecstatic,
sensual experiences.
Dr. Dave Schramm (17:20):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in.
Yeah, dr Stockwell, in the areaof sexual intimacy and all
other areas of marriage, there'sthis common thought that in
order to have a good marriage ora great marriage, a couple
needs to be good at compromising.
(17:40):
But you're not a fan of thisadvice.
Why do you believe thatcompromising is a one-way ticket
to dissatisfaction ordisconnection and infrequent or
even unsatisfying sexualintimacy?
Alexandra Stockwell (17:49):
I love that you asked me this question,
because the most commonrelationship advice that is
given is that you need tocompromise.
If you want a happy marriage,you have to be good at
compromise.
Be good at compromise.
And the thing is, if you want abland, contented partnership,
(18:14):
then compromise is an excellentmethod.
That is great.
But if you want more of thekinds of things we're talking
about, with sensual ecstasy andpassion or even just sex that
feels really good for decades,compromise will not get you
there.
Instead, what I talk about isuncompromising intimacy, and by
uncompromising I do not meanthat you're rigid or you always
(18:38):
get your own way.
It's not like that.
It's more that, in the contextof marriage, I think of
compromise as withholding whoyou are, your deepest truth,
your desire, sometimes yourchallenges, what is alive and
really matters.
You withhold that so yourpartner is more comfortable.
(19:01):
Maybe you don't know how to sayit, maybe you do, but you know
it's going to be hard to hear.
Whatever we withhold who we are, and then, as I said earlier,
we can't bring our whole selvesand self-expression to the
bedroom if we don't feelcomfortable sharing who we
(19:22):
really are with our partner.
So when it comes touncompromising intimacy.
It's not about being sure thatyou get your own way.
No, it is about learning toexpress the truth of who you are
in a way that your partner canreceive it.
And I'll give a super specificexample, because this plays out
(19:44):
on big things like choosingwhere to live or where to send
your kids to school or things ofthat sort.
But it also plays out in allkinds of small ways, like which
drawer the silverware is in, orwho's going to do the childcare
pickup and who's going to do theelementary pickup.
The child care pickup and who'sgoing to do the elementary
pickup.
It's just so easy to focus onquote keeping the peace and
(20:10):
compromising, and then you getpeace but you don't get passion.
So an example of this would belet's say there's a family and
the husband and children loveItalian food, pizza, pasta and
so forth, and the wife lovesThai food.
(20:37):
She just loves Thai food.
But for years, whenever thefamily goes out to eat, they end
up going for Italian, becausethen she knows her husband's
going to be happy, the kids aregoing to find something easy to
eat.
It just seems like the mostexpedient thing to do.
We've all been there, maybe notwith Italian and Thai food, but
some version of this.
And so the compromise formwould be that she just
(20:59):
compromises.
In fact they don't even discussit when they say they're going
out to eat.
It's just understood, they'regoing to Italian.
She's almost forgotten how muchshe loves Thai food, but maybe
listening to this she remembers.
And then there are a few options.
One is that they could you know, the husband and kids could
(21:19):
have something to eat, have asandwich before they go, and
then go to the Thai restaurantand just I don't know have some
soup or something, and she canenjoy what she wants.
They could get takeout fromboth places and eat at a park.
I mean, she could go for Thaifood and the father could take
the kids for Italian and theycould meet up afterwards, and
(21:40):
also she could just say to him.
And also she could just say tohim I'm glad to go for Italian
again, as we always do.
But I just want you to knowthat for years I've been craving
Thai and just chose not to sayit, and I want you to realize
(22:01):
the gift I'm giving that youwouldn't know unless I said this
, and they could go out forItalian as they have before.
But there is uncompromisingintimacy at play, because she
shared and he's received.
It's not about where they endup eating.
It's about seeing one anothermore clearly.
(22:24):
It's about having the languageto say that so he can be
appreciative of the real love inher choice to go for Italian,
rather than just taking it forgranted.
She feels unseen and there'sthis small disconnection, but
all those small disconnectionsthey can add up and feel like
(22:47):
bigger disconnection.
So it's really not about whatthey have for dinner.
It's about how well they seeand care for one another.
Dr. Dave Schramm (23:02):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, that's a great example.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Alexandra Stockwell (23:08):
And so with this, with sharing, I actually
encourage people to start withreally small, benign issues so
that you learn to open up andshare when it's not that
important and where you go fordinner.
That could be important, itcould not be, it depends on the
couple and the circumstances.
But to start sharing thingswhere you can get used to
(23:30):
opening up and sharing withoutthe actual content being so
confronting, and when you dothis enough times, then both of
you trust your ability tonavigate and your choice to
choose one another throughsharing rather than choosing the
peace through compromise.
Dr. Liz Hale (23:51):
That's very cool.
I'm just trying to think whatyou had just said.
It's peace, peace, but notpassion.
Alexandra Stockwell (23:58):
Yes, I actually.
I think of peace as more kindof.
This is just how I'm usingthese words.
One could use these wordsdifferently, but I think of
peace as more like monotone,monochromatic, and I am much
more a fan of harmony inmarriage, where there are many
(24:19):
notes, many colors, but itblends beautifully, as opposed
to peace being more of aleveling things out and more
akin to compromise.
I don't think of peace in thisway on the world stage, but I do
when seeking peace in arelationship.
It can be a little passivepeace, right, exactly, we're
using that.
It's not worth beingself-expressed, self-expressed.
Dr. Liz Hale (24:48):
but with harmony you can have a melody, you can
be back up, you can add rhythmand it all works to make
beautiful music it's sointeresting why we tend to dial
down the truth of who we are,and do women do that more than
men, or men are also guilty ofthat?
Alexandra Stockwell (25:02):
I think we tend to think women do that more
, but I think there's been somereal changes in the last I'm not
being so specific, but I'lljust say two decades or so.
And yes, of course there arethe intense, entitled,
narcissistic, dominating men,but that is really not the
(25:25):
majority that I.
I mean, I don't tend toexperience those in my practice
and I don't tend to experiencethem in the world.
Well, there are some in theworld these days, let's be clear
, but that, in terms of regularpeople, they tend to be nice
guys, nice guys who, yes, theyare compromising more than they
(25:48):
even appreciate it.
I was just talking to a coupletwo days ago.
She's an ER physician.
She knows what she wants.
She has to be super functionalin order to take care of lots of
different people in emergencycircumstances and she's married
to an extremely competent man.
He's not a physician, he's anextremely competent man with a
(26:09):
lot of professionalresponsibility.
And in the course of talking tothem, she was clear what she
wants, she was clear how sheshows up and she should make
these changes and he should makethose changes, and this is what
needs to happen.
That's not the way of all women,but whether they talk that way
or not, a lot of women tend toknow what they want changed, how
(26:30):
they want their men to change,and so I said to him well, what
do you want?
And in truth, he's like a lotof men who, if they're not in a
professional context we'retalking about marriage and it's
not the space for a superficialanswer like I just want to have
(26:53):
some dinner or something likethat but there's really room for
the deeper question.
I do not find that men are inthe habit of asking themselves
what they want or what would begood for them.
They are much more oriented tohow to be of service.
They may be missing the mark.
(27:13):
She may not experience it as soserviceable, but that is still
where his orientation is andhe's looking for validation and
affirmation.
And it takes courage andconfidence for a woman to
actually have room to hear whathe wants.
Dr. Liz Hale (27:37):
It does take courage and confidence right.
We have to really start within,like how do I even really feel?
Sometimes I don't even know howI feel, but that's where it
starts, I suppose, alexandra,before we can fully steps to
start with and building fromthere and so really the easiest.
Alexandra Stockwell (28:07):
The easy step to take to move in the
direction of everything we'vetalked about throughout this
conversation is to just becurious.
When you think back to theexperience of being in love, it
is filled with a kind ofinsatiable curiosity.
What was your second gradeteacher's name?
What was your favoritevegetable when you were a child?
(28:29):
Where have you traveled If youdidn't have this profession?
What profession would you want?
We really can't get enough aboutthe person we are in love with
and then we get together andit's a beautiful thing that we
know our partner and things feelstable and secure and
comfortable and we put ourattention on other things at the
(28:57):
cost of curiosity, which is avery easy thing to bring back,
because all of us are changingand growing, maybe in big ways,
maybe in small ways, but one ofthe most profound shifts, let's
say, is for either a man or awoman to start asking their
(29:20):
partner a question that youhaven't asked before.
So it could be whimsical, itcould be aspirational, it could
be more personal I wouldn'trecommend starting with sexual,
but it could certainly get thereThings like if you were to have
dinner with any celebrity,alive or dead, who would it be
(29:40):
and what would you ask them?
Or if you didn't have thisprofession, which one would you
want?
Or if you could wave a magicwand and live anywhere in the
world, where would you want tolive?
These are questions that thecontent it's not heavy, but it's
(30:01):
getting to know a more playful,a more hidden part of one
another.
And you can also just ask, like, what was the most challenging
part of your week last week?
Or when you're driving to work,what are you daydreaming about
(30:23):
these days?
In other words, there's so muchhappening inside each of our
hearts and opening and sharingof things like where you want to
go to eat or how you want to betouched eventually.
And when we're asking questionsand listening generously, then
(30:59):
we naturally notice our owninner world more and share that
more too.
So I really think the mostimportant thing is to become
curious again.
Dr. Dave Schramm (31:12):
It reminds me of something, alexandra, that a
professor and I've said this onprevious episodes, his name is
Davey Chandler and I was anundergraduate student and he
talks about intimacy.
Davey chandler and I was aundergraduate student and he
talks about intimacy.
Excuse me, intimacy stands forinto me, you see, into me, you
see, and so it's this, thesequestions, this curiosity that
you're talking about, thatreally opens up and I can see
(31:33):
vulnerable, you know you all,and it starts with these genuine
curious questions.
That's why I love that.
Alexandra Stockwell (31:41):
Yes, I've heard that before as well into
me, you see, and I think it'saccurate.
But I want to shift the focus,because when we talk about
intimacy as into me, you see, itputs the onus on the person
seeing, and I really want to putthe emphasis on the person
revealing.
(32:01):
So the way to build intimacy isto reveal who you are to your
partner so that they can seeinto you love that otherwise
we're looking for mind readersand that's very disappointing.
Love it.
Dr. Liz Hale (32:20):
Otherwise, we're looking for mind readers and
that's very disappointing.
Dr. Dave Schramm (32:27):
Love it.
Alexandra, you're a fan.
You are a fan, right of beingkind to our partner.
I mean, it's an easy word tounderstand, right?
You suggest it's far morecomplex in its application.
You've got our attention, sotell us more about the
complication of kindness, please.
Alexandra Stockwell (32:49):
Yes, well, our conversation so far has been
a good setup for it, becausereally the key is how do we say
things to our partner so thatthey can hear them and not shut
down, not become defensive or atleast recover quickly?
And the answer to that reallyis being kind.
(33:10):
But I want to contrast it withbeing nice, because I think of
being selfish or narcissistic.
That is, being just reallyfocused on your own experience
and saying what you have to say,and we all know that that is
bad.
But I think of the opposite endof the spectrum, being nice as
(33:33):
focusing on the other person'sexperience and not honoring your
own enough.
And so being nice is muchbetter for society in general
and much better for keeping thepeace, but it is not much better
for cultivating passion.
I think of kindness as reallythe balance of honoring your own
(33:55):
experience, not dialing down atall what you have to say, but
really saying it in a way thathonors your partner's experience
too.
This is not dumping on yourpartner, this is not dropping a
truth bomb of something that isimportant to you that he never
knew about before.
No, it is staying calibrated,honoring yourself, not giving
(34:21):
that up at all, all while reallyhonoring and staying attuned to
your partner's experience.
So I think of that as reallythe fundamental element in being
kind, and because we tend tothink that good communication
has to do with how the speakerspeaks.
Like it's very easy to think,oh, I just need to say, oh, I
(34:42):
just need to say it.
But no, you really need to sayit with attunement, without
ignoring how it's landing.
So maybe something that ifyou're going to tell your
girlfriend, you might just saythe whole paragraph, but maybe
when talking to your husband,you say a sentence and then
pause.
That would be kind to let himdigest and see if he has any
(35:05):
questions before you continuewith the next sentence.
The two practical things thatmost contribute to kindness are
the pace and the tone.
The tone most of all, and thetone, the tone most of all.
(35:27):
I've just been so surprisedthings that I thought I could
never ever say to my husbandthat I can say to my husband
with a gentle, kind tone.
I'm aiming to model it now thatyou can feel my carefulness and
care without kind of cuttingcorners on what I want to
(35:52):
communicate, and often that'sgoing to mean I'm breathing
fully and speaking more slowly,as opposed to the exact same
information which if I'm sayingit with resentment and anger and
just profound disappointment orwhatever feelings I have
(36:15):
underneath those feelings aregoing to get you a response that
is totally different than thosesame words and concepts spoken
with more care.
So one of I think the biggestkeys to being kind is making
sure you work through your ownstuff so that when you make the
(36:40):
communication to your spouse youcan really be focused on his
experience too journal, I don'tknow, go to a rage room, do
(37:06):
whatever it is that you need todo so that internally you're
more clean.
But very often when people kindof work through the intense
feelings, then they feel doneand move on.
Well, if you feel done and moveon.
Well, if you feel done and moveon, then you're not bringing
(37:34):
the growth into the marriagethat is really needed for the
kind of depth of connection thatwe're talking about.
So I think one of the kindcommunications is to share.
Share what you have solved,don't just speak up when it's a
problem.
Dr. Dave Schramm (37:44):
Yeah, I like that and that's what you refer
to.
I mean different types ofcommunication that you have
discussed.
Is this what you're referringto?
Recognize which type to use inwhich situation.
Alexandra Stockwell (37:56):
Yes, well, one of the things that I think
causes the greatest turmoil forcouples and totally unnecessary
pain and suffering is when oneperson thinks they're having one
kind of conversation and theother person thinks it's a
different conversation.
So the classic thing that we'reall familiar with is a woman
(38:18):
shares how she feels and herhusband responds with problem
solving, and then they are bothfrustrated and disconnected and
it wasn't helpful at all.
But in every marriage there's acollection of types of
conversations.
It's not the same types inevery marriage, but I think it's
really worthwhile to thinkabout it.
So some possible ones, yes,would be logistical things who's
(38:41):
picking up who, who's going tomake sure we have dinner tonight
, or whatever logistical things.
There's venting, where you'rejust dumping the stresses of the
day.
There is fighting.
I suppose there's maybe morevisioning or daydreaming about
(39:03):
the future, you know, settingintentions for how you want to
do things.
There might be conversationsabout extended family, and one
of the very most important forcultivating emotional intimacy,
and therefore sensual intimacy,is vulnerable shares.
And so the first thing, ifyou're going to make a
(39:28):
communication really probablycouples are pretty dialed in
about logistical communicationsand it doesn't need the
framework I'm about to give,although maybe sometimes it does
, but mostly to be really clearwhat kind of communication you
want to make and then say so toyour partner.
So, for example, I really needto vent.
(39:49):
Are you available to listen?
And that needs to be a realquestion.
He gets to say yes and he getsto say no, and his yes means a
whole lot more if no is trulyone of the options, and then
vending can happen.
And the way to really make thisa win is to say to him what
kind of response you want.
Do you want a hug afterwards?
(40:11):
Do you want him to say, yeah,that sucks, like what you know?
What is it that you want fromhim?
Because then that creates awin-win and he won't be as
overwhelmed listening to all ofthat feeling inadequate because
he can't fix it, because heknows all he needs to do is give
you a hug afterwards, and heknows how to do that.
(40:34):
If you want to make a vulnerableshare, same thing, I have
something vulnerable to sharewith you.
Are you available to hear it?
In fact, if I wanted to makethe communication about wanting
Thai food and I hadn't made anyvulnerable communications or
done it in this way before, Iabsolutely would say I have a
(40:59):
vulnerable communication, and myvulnerable communication is
that I can find something Ienjoy at the Italian restaurant,
but what I really want is Thaifood.
Because it's vulnerable to saythat and to tell your partner
what kind of a response you want, which when you start you don't
(41:20):
necessarily know.
So you get to change your mind,that's not a problem.
You can say, oh, I know, I saidI wanted a hug, but what I
really want is for you to justsit here with me and tell me
what you understood me to say,or whatever it might be like.
You can discover what that is.
But I think if every coupletogether made a list of types of
(41:45):
conversations that the two ofthem have with one another, they
might like to add to the list,or it might be complete, and
then they're both clear whenthat's the kind of conversation
happening that alreadycontributes to harmony,
emotional intimacy, each personfeeling successful in the
(42:05):
interaction.
Dr. Dave Schramm (42:09):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
Dr. Liz Hale (42:21):
And we're back, let's dive right in you know I
love this that anytime we'restuck in a relationship.
I don't I don't love that part,but I love your suggestion.
Sometimes we have the sameconflicts recurring again and
again and no progress is beingmade.
You suggest that what's drivingthat pattern is a younger
version of ourselves.
It doesn doesn't know how tozoom out, see the big picture
(42:44):
and solve whatever problem needsattention.
So you teach us to catch ourbreath.
Step back and ask this onebrilliant question.
Alexandra Stockwell (42:56):
Yes.
So I you know there are a lotof different purposes for
marriage.
No-transcript.
(43:29):
Our spouses give us that gift,which can feel terrible, like
salt in a wound, and it also canopen the possibility of real
healing and transformation.
Also can open the possibilityof real healing and
transformation.
(43:53):
And so when feeling stuck insome kind of communication issue
that is recurrent, or justfeeling annoyed or unseen or any
of these kinds of feelings, Ithink one of the most powerful
questions to ask yourself is howold do you feel right now?
Now, if your partner can do itelegantly, meaning it won't feel
(44:14):
insulting or like putting off,but really as a kindness, then
the partner can also say how olddo you feel right now?
Because chances are you do notfeel the grown-up, mature age
that you biologically are, andso it's not the grown-up you
(44:36):
that is having this conflict,it's the five-year-old inside
you conflict, it's thefive-year-old inside you, the
12-year-old inside you, andoften just realizing that
already shifts things.
It brings some objectivity, ittakes a sting out of it and it
makes our partner less of avillain, because whatever
(45:00):
wounding I had when I was fiveis what I'm bringing to this and
it is a very helpful way toopen up and shine light in our
own personal blind spots.
Dr. Liz Hale (45:12):
It's beautiful.
What age?
Even just asking myself, whatage do I feel right now?
I actually asked myself thatquestion last night.
I want you to know, alexandra.
Alexandra Stockwell (45:21):
It really has stayed with me since I read
that Did you discover somethingthat you want to share.
Dr. Liz Hale (45:27):
No well, I mean just that.
I remember just like kind ofwanting to be on the attack a
little bit, and I just rememberasking myself how old do I feel
right now?
I was definitely younger.
It was actually all I needed todo was to realize I am not in
my present self.
It's really all I needed todiscover, and just to kind, of
course, correct yes, exactly.
Alexandra Stockwell (45:46):
And so then you of course, with all of your
talents, personally andprofessionally, know how to then
make that shift.
But let's just talk for amoment.
When you have that awareness,what is the shift?
So there are a few differentoptions.
They're not all going to workin the same situation, but
hopefully one of these will so,kind of the deepest option, when
(46:10):
I ask myself how old do I feel?
And I'm, let's say, five, thenI will say to my husband you
know what I need to table this,and I will go journal and let my
five-year-old say everythingshe has to say, and usually I
will feel better.
I may or may not have somenugget of wisdom.
(46:32):
That I then go back andcontinue the conversation with
my husband is always thrilledwhen this is what I do, because
when I come back I'm just in adifferent state and we can
converse as grownups again.
That's one option.
Another option might be to say,yeah, I feel like a
three-year-old is not getting myway and just like, lean in, and
(46:56):
that brings humor andconnection, and then at least
you know what this thing isabout.
Another option is just to say,um, well, when I look at it as
the 56-year-old woman I am.
I see your point.
I'm like okay, then let's trythis.
(47:19):
You know that this is somethingyou can lean into playfully.
You can go deeply into it, youcan just shake it off and it's
all good.
Either way, that question hasserved you in the moment.
Dr. Liz Hale (47:37):
Beautiful.
I think that's just reallyclever.
Dr. Dave Schramm (47:40):
Yeah, I feel like through the podcast and
episodes and we've had all kindsof professionals on here it
makes me realize, actually, howalmost unique my childhood was,
because I had two parents whowere just about as perfect
angels, never raised their voiceor swore at each other or at us
.
I mean, they're just.
(48:01):
I look back and I'm like man.
I don't remember any trauma oranything right, I had this
amazing childhood, but Irealized that is not the
experience of actually themajority of adults.
Is there a way, then, toexamine our childhoods, to
better understand what otherchildhood experiences might come
to surface or different timesin our relationship, because I
(48:24):
realize that is, the more that Istudy this and interact with
others, that man that can reallyimpact our relationships, the
way that we grow up, yes,although I want to say that our
childhood experiences they don'thave to be all about wounding
(48:47):
for this point to be relevant.
Alexandra Stockwell (48:50):
I know that we talked about it as though
that were the case.
So you've brought up somethingbeautiful.
You might have an experience,let's say, where I know nothing
about your life, so this isentirely theoretical.
So you're talking with yourwife and she says something and
(49:11):
maybe you just feel really good,like like you feel a glow
spread across your heart and youcan just keep going because
there isn't a problem.
That are, you know, a challengethat needs attention, but that
can come from her having anexpression on your face, which
(49:32):
was the expression your motherhad on her face when you happily
graduated from kindergarten.
You know, I'm clearly makingthis up, but, like, like, our
bodies contain cellular memoryof our influences and
experiences, and so the wisdomand the growth and evolution
available by getting to knowourselves better is not only
(49:57):
attached to so-called negativeexperiences.
I think the real question iswhat are the experiences that
provide fodder for our ownlearning and growth?
And I've forgotten exactly whatyou asked me, which was
different, because I gave thatresponse.
Will you ask me again?
Dr. Dave Schramm (50:14):
Actually that's very helpful because it
often focuses on traumaticchildhoods and these wounds and
how they influence.
But I look back and I'm likeman I had the most amazing
childhood with two amazingparents and wonderful
experiences About as good as Ithink anyone could ever have.
I just feel very fortunate,blessed really.
So that's helpful because noteverybody has that endeavor with
(50:37):
.
You know, childhood experiencescan come flooding back back so
that, um, I've never thought ofit actually that way, with the,
with kind of the twist on thepositivity here, that all that
reminds me of this situation orgrowing up or these fun,
enjoyable experiences as well.
Alexandra Stockwell (50:53):
Yeah, because the most primal parts of
our brain does not have time asan orientation.
Everything is the kind of thepresent moment, when it's
relevant, and that is true ofwonderful experiences, of
complicated experiences, ofneutral experiences, and for me
(51:15):
I think the most important thingis to look at our experiences,
whatever the quality of ourexperiences is, as the impetus
for growth.
For you to have had such abeautiful childhood, as you've
described it, and be someoneteaching about parenting and
(51:38):
family systems like you, get tocontribute something that is
so's the truth in your body,mind, spirit, self.
So I also am really not a fanof blaming parents for our
(52:07):
misfortunes.
That is just awful and alsokind of contributes to the drive
to be a perfect parent, whichis actually your description,
dave, notwithstanding not reallya possibility.
It's not worth aspiring toperfection.
It's much more important toaspire towards authenticity and
(52:29):
being willing to learn from theexperiences you have, whether
it's as a parent or as a child,when you're old enough to manage
that for yourself, and reallyvery much so as a spouse.
Dr. Liz Hale (52:41):
To me the question how old do I feel right now is
really more about the childishpart of me.
Alexandra Stockwell (52:45):
You know what I mean.
Dr. Liz Hale (52:46):
I'm not getting my way, so I'm going to sound like
a 12-year-old or six-year-oldTo me.
That's what it was.
I wasn't even thinking about myparents.
You know what I mean.
It was more about me.
Oh, I'm feeling so selfish,yeah, selfish.
Instead of in line whole woman.
I think it's just brilliant.
Dr. Dave Schramm (53:07):
Alexandra.
Hey, before we let you go, aswe wrap up here, we like to ask
all of our guests a couple ofquestions that in honor of the
name of our podcast StrongerMarriage Connection.
What do you feel like is thekey to a stronger marriage
connection?
Alexandra Stockwell (53:22):
Well, we've just been talking about it.
I think the absolute key to astronger marriage connection is
for both people to be devoted totheir own and one another's
personal growth, because whenthat is present, no matter what
else arises, you can navigate itwell and go from surviving to
(53:46):
thriving at every opportunity.
I just think how good it canget has no limit when you're
both oriented to reallysupporting and pursuing your own
and one another's personalgrowth.
Dr. Dave Schramm (54:00):
I love that.
I love that you said growthit's not just like happy or
happiness, happiness orsomething, but growth is more of
this journey.
Anyway, I love that, thank you.
Dr. Liz Hale (54:11):
I think sometimes I even get a little discouraged
sometimes.
Where it's when I'm not perfect?
Right, I'm a marriage therapistand I've worked on this for
years.
And yet I think the whole keyis but am I better than I was
last year?
Right, making the comparison.
Go in the right direction.
Alexandra Stockwell (54:28):
Yeah, in terms of we were talking about
curiosity earlier.
One of the questions I reallyenjoy is what have you learned
about yourself in the last week?
If that's something you andyour partner are asking one
another on a monthly or weeklybasis, it focuses your attention
on how you're growing growing,yeah, and it's beautiful.
Dr. Liz Hale (54:50):
Where can our podcast friends find out more
about you, alexandra?
All the tremendous resourcesyou offer on these crucial
topics of sensual and emotionalintimacy, you are truly a gift,
by the way oh, thank you.
Alexandra Stockwell (55:02):
um, alexandra stockwellcom.
That's my website.
From there, you can find outabout my programs, my book
Uncompromising Intimacy, whichis available on Amazon and
Audible.
I do private coaching with asmall number of people, and I
have a podcast too, the IntimateMarriage Podcast, where I go
(55:22):
into all of these kinds oftopics as well.
So a good place to go next isalexandrastockwellcom.
Dr. Liz Hale (55:30):
Okay, perfect, perfect.
And then just one last questionmy friend often comes up within
groups of friends or evenclients is frequency.
Can you please set the recordstraight before we let you go on
frequency regarding, maybe,date nights and sex itself?
Alexandra Stockwell (55:46):
Okay, well, let's start with sex itself.
I don't think that there is amagic number when it comes to
frequency.
I think the important thing isthat both of you feel good about
whatever the frequency is, andI am much more focused on the
quality of the sex than thequantity of the sex, although
(56:09):
when the quality of the sexyou're having is improving and
really good, then you're goingto want more of it sooner.
But it's not about a specificfrequency at all.
It's about really feelingsatisfied and more connected.
In terms of date nights, I tendto think date nights are
overrated for the followingreason I tend to think date
(56:32):
nights are overrated for thefollowing reason If it's about
dinner and a movie or going outand doing something that you do
once a week because date nightsare good, yes, that's a nice
break from the rest of your life, but I am much more a fan of
using the time together toreally turn towards one another
(56:53):
and deepen the quality ofconnection, and so it depends on
how full your life is.
I think once a week is wonderful, but maybe you ask one another
a curious question every eveningbefore going to sleep, in which
case it would be more daily,but certainly once a week is
(57:15):
beautiful, because then you'renever more than six days away
from time to really nourish therelationship.
Although you know, I just did apost on social media about date
nights in different phases ofour marriage, because when our
kids were young which wasextended we have big gaps in
(57:36):
four kids our date nights reallywere date nights at home and,
yes, they were scheduled in thecalendar and we turned towards
one another.
Maybe we had sex, maybe wedidn't, but the relationship was
nourished by that.
Then date nights were aboutgoing out.
Now we still have one child athome, but my favorite date is
(57:59):
spending the night at a hotelsomewhere.
So I think it really depends onthe phase of life and the most
important thing is not when youleave home together.
The most important thing isthat both of you can count on a
regular time to not talk aboutlogistics, not about kids, not
(58:21):
about work stresses, but reallyuse that time to turn towards
one another.
And if you're doing that once aweek so that's my answer you're
likely to do it every day as anatural consequence of it
feeling good, and it doesn'ttake that long to do it when
you're making a point of doingit on a regular basis.
Dr. Dave Schramm (58:41):
Well said yeah , yeah, well said hey.
As we wrap up our time together, dr Alexandra, what would you
say is the number one take-homemessage you want all of us to
remember from our time today,and it may be something that
you've already shared, but atakeaway of the day- what I hope
the takeaway is is that, nomatter how complicated or how
(59:07):
wonderful your marriage is,having a more fantastic
relationship is a learnableskill.
Alexandra Stockwell (59:15):
So, whether that is sensual sexual
expansion or expansion andcommunication, just wherever you
are, having it be better is alearnable skill.
Dr. Dave Schramm (59:28):
Okay, love it, love, love, love that.
Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway?
Dr. Liz Hale (59:34):
of the day.
Thank goodness right, I'm stillstuck.
That it's learnable.
I mean, I'm still stuck by thispeace, but not necessarily
passion.
I think that's reallyfascinating to me and I love.
I just wrote some notes hereabout using a gentle, kind tone
and speaking more slowly, withfull breath.
(59:54):
I think that's really the magic.
So thank you for that, Dave.
What about you?
What's the golden nugget you'retaking away from?
Our time today with DrAlexander Stockwell.
Dr. Dave Schramm (01:00:05):
Yeah, all kinds of things, Liz, and that
was one of them.
Actually, the tone of voicethat we use in the paints.
That completely affects how themessage is received from the
other person.
And then something right upfront we talked about that it
starts with kind of a mindsetand the curiosity and kind of
that shift that you had with theonions.
But then it was behavior.
(01:00:26):
Right, if we don't act on themindset, if we just kind of
think about but don't act,there's no change that happens
with it.
So I love that combination ofthoughts but then turning it
into action.
Yeah, it stood out to me today.
So thank you for that insight.
Yeah, oh, wow.
(01:00:46):
Well, it has been wonderful.
Dr Alexandra Stockwell, thankyou again for joining us and
spending time and sharing somuch wisdom and helpful tips
with us today.
Alexandra Stockwell (01:00:57):
Really my pleasure.
I love how the two of you playoff of one another and are so
welcoming so that we can goanywhere to serve the listeners.
Dr. Dave Schramm (01:01:07):
Yeah, quite the team, quite the team right.
Alexandra Stockwell (01:01:09):
Totally yeah.
Dr. Dave Schramm (01:01:10):
Yeah, wonderful, well, wonderful, well
, we will see you next time.
That does it for us.
We'll see you next time.
Another episode of StrongerMarriage Connection.
Dr. Liz Hale (01:01:18):
And remember friends.
It's the small and simplethings that create a stronger
marriage connection.
Take good care of yourself andeach other.
Bye-bye now.
Dr. Dave Schramm (01:01:29):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(01:01:50):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more
(01:02:13):
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(01:02:34):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
On today's episode.
Dr Liz and I welcome DrAlexandra Stockwell to the show.
She offers some helpful tipsfrom genuine kindness to
vulnerability and openness andcommunication, and even not
settling for compromise when itcomes to differences in intimacy
and you'll love her brilliantquestions.
She teaches all of her clientswhen they're feeling hurt or
(00:24):
frustrated.
Dr Alexandra Stockwell, knownas the Intimacy Doctor, is a
physician and relationship coachwho helps high-achieving
couples create emotionallyconnected, passionately intimate
marriages.
Author of the best-selling bookUncompromising Intimacy and
host of the Intimate MarriagePodcast, she has been married
for 28 years and is a mother offour.
(00:46):
Dr Alexandra teaches thatlasting passion comes not from
compromise but from authenticity.
Featured in the New York Times,cosmopolitan, rolling Stone and
more.
She empowers couples to builddeeply nourishing relationships
that model love and fulfillmentfor the next generation.
We hope you enjoy the show.
Dr. Liz Hale (01:11):
Welcome to Stronger Marriage Connection.
I'm psychologist, dr Liz Hale,along with the esteemed
professor, dr Dave Schramm.
Together, we have dedicated ourlife's work to bringing you the
best we have in valid maritalresearch, along with a few tips
and tools to help you create themarriage of your dreams.
What a terrific interview today, dave.
(01:31):
I'm really excited about this.
You know, as a physician andintimate marriage expert, for
the past two decades, drAlexandra Stockwell has been
guiding men and women towardsbringing pleasure and purpose
into all aspects of life, butespecially sensual intimacy.
She has coached hundreds ofclients on how to experience
exuberance and joy, andeverything from the daily grind
(01:54):
of running a household tocreating ecstatic experiences in
the bedroom.
It seems time that we have sucha key conversation on ecstatic
sensual intimacy.
Welcome to Stronger MarriageConnection, dr Alexandra
Stockwell.
What a joy.
Alexandra Stockwell (02:08):
Thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here andI'm excited for our conversation
.
Dr. Liz Hale (02:14):
Well, first of all , my friend, you practice what
you coach in your own marriage,which we so respect, and I must
just say how much I love how youtraded in you said your old
kitchen apron for this beautiful, flirty, fun French-made apron.
I thought that was lovely.
So you allowing our sensualself to show up starts with
(02:36):
giving ourselves permission toenhance our femininity as women,
for starters.
Is that right?
Alexandra Stockwell (02:44):
Yes, although that's not really how
it came to me, in fact, the verymoment when I did get rid of my
functional kind of full coverfrumpy apron and trade it with a
French maid apron that'sfunctional it's actually hard to
find a French maid's apronthat's like flirty and actually
(03:08):
does the job.
It's not just a costume.
But that all began so, as yousay, I've been married.
I've been married 29 years nowand I have four children.
And at the time that I'mthinking of, we had kind of an
open concept home.
So I was cooking in the kitchenand the children were playing
in the living room but it wasall one big space with kind of
(03:29):
an island separating them and itwas a hard day.
I think my youngest was maybefive months and they were
squabbling and it just was ahard day, as happens in family
life and parenting.
And so I was at the stovecooking dinner and I was
(03:51):
sauteing onions with a woodenspoon on my you know in the
frying pan and I was just movingthat spoon.
I was so angry and I was tightand it was like I was pushing it
back and forth.
The spoon was a conveyor of howpissy I felt inside and
(04:14):
suddenly it occurred to me thatthese onions were going to cook
just as well if I enjoyed it.
On know, onions have such astrong aroma.
I wasn't cooking somethingbland and I just moved into more
elegant movements, moreconnected movements.
(04:37):
I found myself breathing moredeeply and kind of swaying side
to side with my hips and I justrealized I could actually enjoy
that moment.
And there was a lot that cameto me in that.
First of all, it was my choiceand I think that's really the
(05:00):
most important thing that Icould be angry moving those
onions around the pan.
Or I could feel like a womanenjoying the aroma, enjoying the
fact that I inhabit a body likeit was an invitation to a rich
sensual experience for my senses, not sexual, sexual, of course,
(05:22):
but sensual.
And then I didn't want to be ina frumpy apron like let's go
all the way and enjoy it.
I didn't in that moment put onheels and lipstick to saute my
onions, but I have on subsequentdays.
Really, this was one of theorigin moments of what I've come
(05:45):
to call everyday eroticism,because my journey is that
really for the first eight yearsof my marriage I had what I
call functional sex, whereeverything was happening, but it
wasn't ecstatic.
We didn't feel closerafterwards.
It was nothing like what thepoets describe and once I had
(06:08):
learned how to really heatthings up and align things and
really look forward to times inthe bedroom with my husband, it
just seemed so sad to me thatafter all the attention and
intentionality and individualand collective growth to achieve
really passionate times in thebedroom, that that would only
(06:32):
happen when he was done withwork and I was done with work
and the kids were in bed andneither one of us was stressed
and the house was cleaned up.
It just went from the wholepotential to just such a small
amount of time.
And while I was sautéing thoseonions I realized, oh, I'm not
(06:54):
looking to have sex all the time, but I am looking to feel good
like a sensual, passionatelyfulfilled woman a lot of the
time.
Dr. Liz Hale (07:08):
So that was when I traded in my apron.
That is very cool.
So I mean, it's really aboutit's about our brains anyway,
right it's.
Alexandra Stockwell (07:14):
It's how we show up we're sexual beings
it's about our brains, but it isnot a mental shift.
I mean sure, it's a choice howwe feel, but I really want to
emphasize that.
I really think the shift is inrelation to being embodied, that
we can accomplish so much,feeling sort of like brains
(07:38):
moving through our lives, and,yes, we can change our thoughts.
But it's about you know.
It mattered that I startedswaying my hips, that I allowed
the aroma of the onions to berich for my senses to start
experience and the sustainedimpact happens in the body with
the sense experiences.
That's beautiful.
Dr. Liz Hale (08:14):
Especially for the femininity.
I really get that Then, withmasculinity for men.
Is that similar?
Alexandra Stockwell (08:21):
Well, I have yet to meet a man who has
had a transformation throughsauteing onions.
So let me just say that veryclearly.
Won't be that.
I think the journey isdifferent, and because most
listeners are women, I'mactually going to share the
following.
So once I tapped into this,this way of being where I felt
(08:44):
so much better, I then reallybecame a researcher in my own
home, because that very eveningwhen I served dinner my husband
and I are sitting across fromone another with two kids on
either side it suddenly occurredto him to me in I don't know
exactly at that point maybe 15years of marriage that every
(09:07):
time I sat down to dinner withhim since we first became
parents that I either ignoredhim, because my husband is a
grown-up and can manage himselfat the table and the kids needed
my attention, or I interactedwith him as a helpful co-parent.
But I had not once sat down toa family dinner and looked at
(09:29):
this man as the sexy, attractive, wonderful man who is my lover
in life.
And so I made once again aninternal shift with my mind, but
I felt it in my body.
Once again an internal shiftwith my mind, but I felt it in
my body and, to my amazement, hestarted interacting with me
(09:51):
differently, with everything.
I never told him what I wasdoing it was a private, entirely
discreet research experimentbut suddenly he started giving
me more attention and a kind ofattention that felt really good,
and he asked me questions hehadn't asked before and I think
I personally had some kind of ataboo that it wasn't right to
(10:16):
cultivate the marital connectionin front of the children, that
that wouldn't be healthy forthem.
But I was experimenting thatday and, to my surprise, as I
connected with my husband and,yes, he did respond with more
masculinity.
In other words, there was moreof that polarity which
contributes to chemistry.
(10:37):
But it happened naturally as aconsequence of the shift that I
made and he responded to, ourchildren were calmer, there was
much less minding your mannersneeded during that dinner, and
so what I found was that mychanging and showing up in a way
(10:58):
that I'm comfortable being awoman rather than just a manager
, uncomfortable being a womanrather than just a manager then
he really responded to that, andso did the children, and they
never knew until my children,who are young adults, now read
(11:25):
my book and found out about itin the story that I share in my
book on compromising intimacy.
But I think I'll say one morething, because I now have
programs for men and I think oneof the most important things is
that for men particularly whowant more physical connection
with their wives, they oftencome Well, their wives they
(11:49):
often come well.
There's, of course, masculinebravado where, you know, many,
many of the exposures in societyteach men to show up and feel
entitled and expect things whichdoesn't tend to work or anyway
feel good.
So then good men tend tocompensate and go into something
I call desperate acquiescence,where their bid for more
(12:12):
connection, physical connection,attention, affection, often
feels sort of needy and clingyand desperate and almost like
wanting paternal approval, whichjust is not a recipe for good
sexual chemistry.
(12:32):
And so for a man sometimes itfeels good to aim for more
masculinity, but sometimes thatcan be unnecessarily
intimidating, and so the thing Ilike to say to men instead is,
rather than looking forvalidation and affirmation from
your wife and then feelingbetter, to shift your energy so
(12:57):
you feel better and then bringthat to the interaction.
So I tend to talk more aboutpositive vitality and good
energy, because masculinity hasso many different associations
and sometimes it's helpful, buta lot of times it sort of gets
(13:18):
in the way with showing up inthe way that, yes, between the
three of us and everyonelistening is more masculine.
Dr. Liz Hale (13:27):
I got it.
It's really crucial todistinguish the two.
And going back to the power ofa woman, right, I think we do
want our listeners to reallyembrace that.
Alexandra Stockwell (13:39):
Yes, and I think we often think and there
is truth in saying it takes twopeople for a good marriage.
They both have to really bededicated.
That is true, but it is so muchmore than people usually think
that can happen when one personmakes genuine change, because
(14:00):
that shifts the whole dynamic,and then the other person ends
up responding too, unlessthey're really stubborn.
Dr. Liz Hale (14:08):
The power of a partner.
Just one right, that's right,that's right.
Oh gosh, because there's notenough hours in the day to
discuss this crucial topic.
What are the key elements, drAlexandra, for developing an
ecstatic sensual intimacy?
If you had to just give us ashort version, what would it be
If?
Alexandra Stockwell (14:23):
you had to just give us a short version,
what would it be?
Well, in the context oflong-term committed relationship
, I think it's actually quitehelpful to look at everything
that isn't ecstatic sensualityand sex as functioning like
(14:43):
foreplay.
In other words, everything,every little interaction brings
you a little closer together ora lot or a little further apart.
And the thing is that emotionalintimacy it's not always enough
, but it definitely is aprerequisite for ecstatic,
sensual intimacy, because it'snot the physical act that opens
(15:26):
our hearts and fuels our lives,it's the physical act coupled
with presence, attention,connection, attention put on
nurturing emotional depth.
We're not magic creatures thatwe can be sort of disconnected
in our day-to-day lives.
We can be sort of disconnectedin our day-to-day lives even if
things look pretty good, but Imean below the waterline, kind
(15:53):
of disconnected.
There's no magic switch thatwhen we get to the bedroom it
suddenly flips and we can befully present and open our
hearts and open our legs andjust feel ecstatic together.
That requires not having all ofthese blocks in our day-to-day
interaction.
So actually when I work withcouples this is anecdotal, but
(16:13):
maybe I don't know 75-80% of thetime working on emotional
intimacy just paves the way forreally sensual ecstatic
experiences, and then, 20-25% ofthe time, I do get into the
specifics of touch and howpeople are interacting in the
(16:34):
bedroom, but it's really how youfeel with one another that
makes so much possible, and Ithink we tend to miss that if we
watch rom-coms or porn or evenchurch teachings.
How to genuinely developemotional intimacy is really, I
(16:59):
think, the prime place to putattention if you want ecstatic,
sensual experiences.
Dr. Dave Schramm (17:20):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
And we're back, let's diveright in.
Yeah, dr Stockwell, in the areaof sexual intimacy and all
other areas of marriage, there'sthis common thought that in
order to have a good marriage ora great marriage, a couple
needs to be good at compromising.
(17:40):
But you're not a fan of thisadvice.
Why do you believe thatcompromising is a one-way ticket
to dissatisfaction ordisconnection and infrequent or
even unsatisfying sexualintimacy?
Alexandra Stockwell (17:49):
I love that you asked me this question,
because the most commonrelationship advice that is
given is that you need tocompromise.
If you want a happy marriage,you have to be good at
compromise.
Be good at compromise.
And the thing is, if you want abland, contented partnership,
(18:14):
then compromise is an excellentmethod.
That is great.
But if you want more of thekinds of things we're talking
about, with sensual ecstasy andpassion or even just sex that
feels really good for decades,compromise will not get you
there.
Instead, what I talk about isuncompromising intimacy, and by
uncompromising I do not meanthat you're rigid or you always
(18:38):
get your own way.
It's not like that.
It's more that, in the contextof marriage, I think of
compromise as withholding whoyou are, your deepest truth,
your desire, sometimes yourchallenges, what is alive and
really matters.
You withhold that so yourpartner is more comfortable.
(19:01):
Maybe you don't know how to sayit, maybe you do, but you know
it's going to be hard to hear.
Whatever we withhold who we are, and then, as I said earlier,
we can't bring our whole selvesand self-expression to the
bedroom if we don't feelcomfortable sharing who we
(19:22):
really are with our partner.
So when it comes touncompromising intimacy.
It's not about being sure thatyou get your own way.
No, it is about learning toexpress the truth of who you are
in a way that your partner canreceive it.
And I'll give a super specificexample, because this plays out
(19:44):
on big things like choosingwhere to live or where to send
your kids to school or things ofthat sort.
But it also plays out in allkinds of small ways, like which
drawer the silverware is in, orwho's going to do the childcare
pickup and who's going to do theelementary pickup.
The child care pickup and who'sgoing to do the elementary
pickup.
It's just so easy to focus onquote keeping the peace and
(20:10):
compromising, and then you getpeace but you don't get passion.
So an example of this would belet's say there's a family and
the husband and children loveItalian food, pizza, pasta and
so forth, and the wife lovesThai food.
(20:37):
She just loves Thai food.
But for years, whenever thefamily goes out to eat, they end
up going for Italian, becausethen she knows her husband's
going to be happy, the kids aregoing to find something easy to
eat.
It just seems like the mostexpedient thing to do.
We've all been there, maybe notwith Italian and Thai food, but
some version of this.
And so the compromise formwould be that she just
(20:59):
compromises.
In fact they don't even discussit when they say they're going
out to eat.
It's just understood, they'regoing to Italian.
She's almost forgotten how muchshe loves Thai food, but maybe
listening to this she remembers.
And then there are a few options.
One is that they could you know, the husband and kids could
(21:19):
have something to eat, have asandwich before they go, and
then go to the Thai restaurantand just I don't know have some
soup or something, and she canenjoy what she wants.
They could get takeout fromboth places and eat at a park.
I mean, she could go for Thaifood and the father could take
the kids for Italian and theycould meet up afterwards, and
(21:40):
also she could just say to him.
And also she could just say tohim I'm glad to go for Italian
again, as we always do.
But I just want you to knowthat for years I've been craving
Thai and just chose not to sayit, and I want you to realize
(22:01):
the gift I'm giving that youwouldn't know unless I said this
, and they could go out forItalian as they have before.
But there is uncompromisingintimacy at play, because she
shared and he's received.
It's not about where they endup eating.
It's about seeing one anothermore clearly.
(22:24):
It's about having the languageto say that so he can be
appreciative of the real love inher choice to go for Italian,
rather than just taking it forgranted.
She feels unseen and there'sthis small disconnection, but
all those small disconnectionsthey can add up and feel like
(22:47):
bigger disconnection.
So it's really not about whatthey have for dinner.
It's about how well they seeand care for one another.
Dr. Dave Schramm (23:02):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, that's a great example.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Alexandra Stockwell (23:08):
And so with this, with sharing, I actually
encourage people to start withreally small, benign issues so
that you learn to open up andshare when it's not that
important and where you go fordinner.
That could be important, itcould not be, it depends on the
couple and the circumstances.
But to start sharing thingswhere you can get used to
(23:30):
opening up and sharing withoutthe actual content being so
confronting, and when you dothis enough times, then both of
you trust your ability tonavigate and your choice to
choose one another throughsharing rather than choosing the
peace through compromise.
Dr. Liz Hale (23:51):
That's very cool.
I'm just trying to think whatyou had just said.
It's peace, peace, but notpassion.
Alexandra Stockwell (23:58):
Yes, I actually.
I think of peace as more kindof.
This is just how I'm usingthese words.
One could use these wordsdifferently, but I think of
peace as more like monotone,monochromatic, and I am much
more a fan of harmony inmarriage, where there are many
(24:19):
notes, many colors, but itblends beautifully, as opposed
to peace being more of aleveling things out and more
akin to compromise.
I don't think of peace in thisway on the world stage, but I do
when seeking peace in arelationship.
It can be a little passivepeace, right, exactly, we're
using that.
It's not worth beingself-expressed, self-expressed.
Dr. Liz Hale (24:48):
but with harmony you can have a melody, you can
be back up, you can add rhythmand it all works to make
beautiful music it's sointeresting why we tend to dial
down the truth of who we are,and do women do that more than
men, or men are also guilty ofthat?
Alexandra Stockwell (25:02):
I think we tend to think women do that more
, but I think there's been somereal changes in the last I'm not
being so specific, but I'lljust say two decades or so.
And yes, of course there arethe intense, entitled,
narcissistic, dominating men,but that is really not the
(25:25):
majority that I.
I mean, I don't tend toexperience those in my practice
and I don't tend to experiencethem in the world.
Well, there are some in theworld these days, let's be clear
, but that, in terms of regularpeople, they tend to be nice
guys, nice guys who, yes, theyare compromising more than they
(25:48):
even appreciate it.
I was just talking to a coupletwo days ago.
She's an ER physician.
She knows what she wants.
She has to be super functionalin order to take care of lots of
different people in emergencycircumstances and she's married
to an extremely competent man.
He's not a physician, he's anextremely competent man with a
(26:09):
lot of professionalresponsibility.
And in the course of talking tothem, she was clear what she
wants, she was clear how sheshows up and she should make
these changes and he should makethose changes, and this is what
needs to happen.
That's not the way of all women,but whether they talk that way
or not, a lot of women tend toknow what they want changed, how
(26:30):
they want their men to change,and so I said to him well, what
do you want?
And in truth, he's like a lotof men who, if they're not in a
professional context we'retalking about marriage and it's
not the space for a superficialanswer like I just want to have
(26:53):
some dinner or something likethat but there's really room for
the deeper question.
I do not find that men are inthe habit of asking themselves
what they want or what would begood for them.
They are much more oriented tohow to be of service.
They may be missing the mark.
(27:13):
She may not experience it as soserviceable, but that is still
where his orientation is andhe's looking for validation and
affirmation.
And it takes courage andconfidence for a woman to
actually have room to hear whathe wants.
Dr. Liz Hale (27:37):
It does take courage and confidence right.
We have to really start within,like how do I even really feel?
Sometimes I don't even know howI feel, but that's where it
starts, I suppose, alexandra,before we can fully steps to
start with and building fromthere and so really the easiest.
Alexandra Stockwell (28:07):
The easy step to take to move in the
direction of everything we'vetalked about throughout this
conversation is to just becurious.
When you think back to theexperience of being in love, it
is filled with a kind ofinsatiable curiosity.
What was your second gradeteacher's name?
What was your favoritevegetable when you were a child?
(28:29):
Where have you traveled If youdidn't have this profession?
What profession would you want?
We really can't get enough aboutthe person we are in love with
and then we get together andit's a beautiful thing that we
know our partner and things feelstable and secure and
comfortable and we put ourattention on other things at the
(28:57):
cost of curiosity, which is avery easy thing to bring back,
because all of us are changingand growing, maybe in big ways,
maybe in small ways, but one ofthe most profound shifts, let's
say, is for either a man or awoman to start asking their
(29:20):
partner a question that youhaven't asked before.
So it could be whimsical, itcould be aspirational, it could
be more personal I wouldn'trecommend starting with sexual,
but it could certainly get thereThings like if you were to have
dinner with any celebrity,alive or dead, who would it be
(29:40):
and what would you ask them?
Or if you didn't have thisprofession, which one would you
want?
Or if you could wave a magicwand and live anywhere in the
world, where would you want tolive?
These are questions that thecontent it's not heavy, but it's
(30:01):
getting to know a more playful,a more hidden part of one
another.
And you can also just ask, like, what was the most challenging
part of your week last week?
Or when you're driving to work,what are you daydreaming about
(30:23):
these days?
In other words, there's so muchhappening inside each of our
hearts and opening and sharingof things like where you want to
go to eat or how you want to betouched eventually.
And when we're asking questionsand listening generously, then
(30:59):
we naturally notice our owninner world more and share that
more too.
So I really think the mostimportant thing is to become
curious again.
Dr. Dave Schramm (31:12):
It reminds me of something, alexandra, that a
professor and I've said this onprevious episodes, his name is
Davey Chandler and I was anundergraduate student and he
talks about intimacy.
Davey chandler and I was aundergraduate student and he
talks about intimacy.
Excuse me, intimacy stands forinto me, you see, into me, you
see, and so it's this, thesequestions, this curiosity that
you're talking about, thatreally opens up and I can see
(31:33):
vulnerable, you know you all,and it starts with these genuine
curious questions.
That's why I love that.
Alexandra Stockwell (31:41):
Yes, I've heard that before as well into
me, you see, and I think it'saccurate.
But I want to shift the focus,because when we talk about
intimacy as into me, you see, itputs the onus on the person
seeing, and I really want to putthe emphasis on the person
revealing.
(32:01):
So the way to build intimacy isto reveal who you are to your
partner so that they can seeinto you love that otherwise
we're looking for mind readersand that's very disappointing.
Love it.
Dr. Liz Hale (32:20):
Otherwise, we're looking for mind readers and
that's very disappointing.
Dr. Dave Schramm (32:27):
Love it.
Alexandra, you're a fan.
You are a fan, right of beingkind to our partner.
I mean, it's an easy word tounderstand, right?
You suggest it's far morecomplex in its application.
You've got our attention, sotell us more about the
complication of kindness, please.
Alexandra Stockwell (32:49):
Yes, well, our conversation so far has been
a good setup for it, becausereally the key is how do we say
things to our partner so thatthey can hear them and not shut
down, not become defensive or atleast recover quickly?
And the answer to that reallyis being kind.
(33:10):
But I want to contrast it withbeing nice, because I think of
being selfish or narcissistic.
That is, being just reallyfocused on your own experience
and saying what you have to say,and we all know that that is
bad.
But I think of the opposite endof the spectrum, being nice as
(33:33):
focusing on the other person'sexperience and not honoring your
own enough.
And so being nice is muchbetter for society in general
and much better for keeping thepeace, but it is not much better
for cultivating passion.
I think of kindness as reallythe balance of honoring your own
(33:55):
experience, not dialing down atall what you have to say, but
really saying it in a way thathonors your partner's experience
too.
This is not dumping on yourpartner, this is not dropping a
truth bomb of something that isimportant to you that he never
knew about before.
No, it is staying calibrated,honoring yourself, not giving
(34:21):
that up at all, all while reallyhonoring and staying attuned to
your partner's experience.
So I think of that as reallythe fundamental element in being
kind, and because we tend tothink that good communication
has to do with how the speakerspeaks.
Like it's very easy to think,oh, I just need to say, oh, I
(34:42):
just need to say it.
But no, you really need to sayit with attunement, without
ignoring how it's landing.
So maybe something that ifyou're going to tell your
girlfriend, you might just saythe whole paragraph, but maybe
when talking to your husband,you say a sentence and then
pause.
That would be kind to let himdigest and see if he has any
(35:05):
questions before you continuewith the next sentence.
The two practical things thatmost contribute to kindness are
the pace and the tone.
The tone most of all, and thetone, the tone most of all.
(35:27):
I've just been so surprisedthings that I thought I could
never ever say to my husbandthat I can say to my husband
with a gentle, kind tone.
I'm aiming to model it now thatyou can feel my carefulness and
care without kind of cuttingcorners on what I want to
(35:52):
communicate, and often that'sgoing to mean I'm breathing
fully and speaking more slowly,as opposed to the exact same
information which if I'm sayingit with resentment and anger and
just profound disappointment orwhatever feelings I have
(36:15):
underneath those feelings aregoing to get you a response that
is totally different than thosesame words and concepts spoken
with more care.
So one of I think the biggestkeys to being kind is making
sure you work through your ownstuff so that when you make the
(36:40):
communication to your spouse youcan really be focused on his
experience too journal, I don'tknow, go to a rage room, do
(37:06):
whatever it is that you need todo so that internally you're
more clean.
But very often when people kindof work through the intense
feelings, then they feel doneand move on.
Well, if you feel done and moveon.
Well, if you feel done and moveon, then you're not bringing
(37:34):
the growth into the marriagethat is really needed for the
kind of depth of connection thatwe're talking about.
So I think one of the kindcommunications is to share.
Share what you have solved,don't just speak up when it's a
problem.
Dr. Dave Schramm (37:44):
Yeah, I like that and that's what you refer
to.
I mean different types ofcommunication that you have
discussed.
Is this what you're referringto?
Recognize which type to use inwhich situation.
Alexandra Stockwell (37:56):
Yes, well, one of the things that I think
causes the greatest turmoil forcouples and totally unnecessary
pain and suffering is when oneperson thinks they're having one
kind of conversation and theother person thinks it's a
different conversation.
So the classic thing that we'reall familiar with is a woman
(38:18):
shares how she feels and herhusband responds with problem
solving, and then they are bothfrustrated and disconnected and
it wasn't helpful at all.
But in every marriage there's acollection of types of
conversations.
It's not the same types inevery marriage, but I think it's
really worthwhile to thinkabout it.
So some possible ones, yes,would be logistical things who's
(38:41):
picking up who, who's going tomake sure we have dinner tonight
, or whatever logistical things.
There's venting, where you'rejust dumping the stresses of the
day.
There is fighting.
I suppose there's maybe morevisioning or daydreaming about
(39:03):
the future, you know, settingintentions for how you want to
do things.
There might be conversationsabout extended family, and one
of the very most important forcultivating emotional intimacy,
and therefore sensual intimacy,is vulnerable shares.
And so the first thing, ifyou're going to make a
(39:28):
communication really probablycouples are pretty dialed in
about logistical communicationsand it doesn't need the
framework I'm about to give,although maybe sometimes it does
, but mostly to be really clearwhat kind of communication you
want to make and then say so toyour partner.
So, for example, I really needto vent.
(39:49):
Are you available to listen?
And that needs to be a realquestion.
He gets to say yes and he getsto say no, and his yes means a
whole lot more if no is trulyone of the options, and then
vending can happen.
And the way to really make thisa win is to say to him what
kind of response you want.
Do you want a hug afterwards?
(40:11):
Do you want him to say, yeah,that sucks, like what you know?
What is it that you want fromhim?
Because then that creates awin-win and he won't be as
overwhelmed listening to all ofthat feeling inadequate because
he can't fix it, because heknows all he needs to do is give
you a hug afterwards, and heknows how to do that.
(40:34):
If you want to make a vulnerableshare, same thing, I have
something vulnerable to sharewith you.
Are you available to hear it?
In fact, if I wanted to makethe communication about wanting
Thai food and I hadn't made anyvulnerable communications or
done it in this way before, Iabsolutely would say I have a
(40:59):
vulnerable communication, and myvulnerable communication is
that I can find something Ienjoy at the Italian restaurant,
but what I really want is Thaifood.
Because it's vulnerable to saythat and to tell your partner
what kind of a response you want, which when you start you don't
(41:20):
necessarily know.
So you get to change your mind,that's not a problem.
You can say, oh, I know, I saidI wanted a hug, but what I
really want is for you to justsit here with me and tell me
what you understood me to say,or whatever it might be like.
You can discover what that is.
But I think if every coupletogether made a list of types of
(41:45):
conversations that the two ofthem have with one another, they
might like to add to the list,or it might be complete, and
then they're both clear whenthat's the kind of conversation
happening that alreadycontributes to harmony,
emotional intimacy, each personfeeling successful in the
(42:05):
interaction.
Dr. Dave Schramm (42:09):
We'll be right back after this brief message.
Dr. Liz Hale (42:21):
And we're back, let's dive right in you know I
love this that anytime we'restuck in a relationship.
I don't I don't love that part,but I love your suggestion.
Sometimes we have the sameconflicts recurring again and
again and no progress is beingmade.
You suggest that what's drivingthat pattern is a younger
version of ourselves.
It doesn doesn't know how tozoom out, see the big picture
(42:44):
and solve whatever problem needsattention.
So you teach us to catch ourbreath.
Step back and ask this onebrilliant question.
Alexandra Stockwell (42:56):
Yes.
So I you know there are a lotof different purposes for
marriage.
No-transcript.
(43:29):
Our spouses give us that gift,which can feel terrible, like
salt in a wound, and it also canopen the possibility of real
healing and transformation.
Also can open the possibilityof real healing and
transformation.
(43:53):
And so when feeling stuck insome kind of communication issue
that is recurrent, or justfeeling annoyed or unseen or any
of these kinds of feelings, Ithink one of the most powerful
questions to ask yourself is howold do you feel right now?
Now, if your partner can do itelegantly, meaning it won't feel
(44:14):
insulting or like putting off,but really as a kindness, then
the partner can also say how olddo you feel right now?
Because chances are you do notfeel the grown-up, mature age
that you biologically are, andso it's not the grown-up you
(44:36):
that is having this conflict,it's the five-year-old inside
you conflict, it's thefive-year-old inside you, the
12-year-old inside you, andoften just realizing that
already shifts things.
It brings some objectivity, ittakes a sting out of it and it
makes our partner less of avillain, because whatever
(45:00):
wounding I had when I was fiveis what I'm bringing to this and
it is a very helpful way toopen up and shine light in our
own personal blind spots.
Dr. Liz Hale (45:12):
It's beautiful.
What age?
Even just asking myself, whatage do I feel right now?
I actually asked myself thatquestion last night.
I want you to know, alexandra.
Alexandra Stockwell (45:21):
It really has stayed with me since I read
that Did you discover somethingthat you want to share.
Dr. Liz Hale (45:27):
No well, I mean just that.
I remember just like kind ofwanting to be on the attack a
little bit, and I just rememberasking myself how old do I feel
right now?
I was definitely younger.
It was actually all I needed todo was to realize I am not in
my present self.
It's really all I needed todiscover, and just to kind, of
course, correct yes, exactly.
Alexandra Stockwell (45:46):
And so then you of course, with all of your
talents, personally andprofessionally, know how to then
make that shift.
But let's just talk for amoment.
When you have that awareness,what is the shift?
So there are a few differentoptions.
They're not all going to workin the same situation, but
hopefully one of these will so,kind of the deepest option, when
(46:10):
I ask myself how old do I feel?
And I'm, let's say, five, thenI will say to my husband you
know what I need to table this,and I will go journal and let my
five-year-old say everythingshe has to say, and usually I
will feel better.
I may or may not have somenugget of wisdom.
(46:32):
That I then go back andcontinue the conversation with
my husband is always thrilledwhen this is what I do, because
when I come back I'm just in adifferent state and we can
converse as grownups again.
That's one option.
Another option might be to say,yeah, I feel like a
three-year-old is not getting myway and just like, lean in, and
(46:56):
that brings humor andconnection, and then at least
you know what this thing isabout.
Another option is just to say,um, well, when I look at it as
the 56-year-old woman I am.
I see your point.
I'm like okay, then let's trythis.
(47:19):
You know that this is somethingyou can lean into playfully.
You can go deeply into it, youcan just shake it off and it's
all good.
Either way, that question hasserved you in the moment.
Dr. Liz Hale (47:37):
Beautiful.
I think that's just reallyclever.
Dr. Dave Schramm (47:40):
Yeah, I feel like through the podcast and
episodes and we've had all kindsof professionals on here it
makes me realize, actually, howalmost unique my childhood was,
because I had two parents whowere just about as perfect
angels, never raised their voiceor swore at each other or at us
.
I mean, they're just.
(48:01):
I look back and I'm like man.
I don't remember any trauma oranything right, I had this
amazing childhood, but Irealized that is not the
experience of actually themajority of adults.
Is there a way, then, toexamine our childhoods, to
better understand what otherchildhood experiences might come
to surface or different timesin our relationship, because I
(48:24):
realize that is, the more that Istudy this and interact with
others, that man that can reallyimpact our relationships, the
way that we grow up, yes,although I want to say that our
childhood experiences they don'thave to be all about wounding
(48:47):
for this point to be relevant.
Alexandra Stockwell (48:50):
I know that we talked about it as though
that were the case.
So you've brought up somethingbeautiful.
You might have an experience,let's say, where I know nothing
about your life, so this isentirely theoretical.
So you're talking with yourwife and she says something and
(49:11):
maybe you just feel really good,like like you feel a glow
spread across your heart and youcan just keep going because
there isn't a problem.
That are, you know, a challengethat needs attention, but that
can come from her having anexpression on your face, which
(49:32):
was the expression your motherhad on her face when you happily
graduated from kindergarten.
You know, I'm clearly makingthis up, but, like, like, our
bodies contain cellular memoryof our influences and
experiences, and so the wisdomand the growth and evolution
available by getting to knowourselves better is not only
(49:57):
attached to so-called negativeexperiences.
I think the real question iswhat are the experiences that
provide fodder for our ownlearning and growth?
And I've forgotten exactly whatyou asked me, which was
different, because I gave thatresponse.
Will you ask me again?
Dr. Dave Schramm (50:14):
Actually that's very helpful because it
often focuses on traumaticchildhoods and these wounds and
how they influence.
But I look back and I'm likeman I had the most amazing
childhood with two amazingparents and wonderful
experiences About as good as Ithink anyone could ever have.
I just feel very fortunate,blessed really.
So that's helpful because noteverybody has that endeavor with
(50:37):
.
You know, childhood experiencescan come flooding back back so
that, um, I've never thought ofit actually that way, with the,
with kind of the twist on thepositivity here, that all that
reminds me of this situation orgrowing up or these fun,
enjoyable experiences as well.
Alexandra Stockwell (50:53):
Yeah, because the most primal parts of
our brain does not have time asan orientation.
Everything is the kind of thepresent moment, when it's
relevant, and that is true ofwonderful experiences, of
complicated experiences, ofneutral experiences, and for me
(51:15):
I think the most important thingis to look at our experiences,
whatever the quality of ourexperiences is, as the impetus
for growth.
For you to have had such abeautiful childhood, as you've
described it, and be someoneteaching about parenting and
(51:38):
family systems like you, get tocontribute something that is
so's the truth in your body,mind, spirit, self.
So I also am really not a fanof blaming parents for our
(52:07):
misfortunes.
That is just awful and alsokind of contributes to the drive
to be a perfect parent, whichis actually your description,
dave, notwithstanding not reallya possibility.
It's not worth aspiring toperfection.
It's much more important toaspire towards authenticity and
(52:29):
being willing to learn from theexperiences you have, whether
it's as a parent or as a child,when you're old enough to manage
that for yourself, and reallyvery much so as a spouse.
Dr. Liz Hale (52:41):
To me the question how old do I feel right now is
really more about the childishpart of me.
Alexandra Stockwell (52:45):
You know what I mean.
Dr. Liz Hale (52:46):
I'm not getting my way, so I'm going to sound like
a 12-year-old or six-year-oldTo me.
That's what it was.
I wasn't even thinking about myparents.
You know what I mean.
It was more about me.
Oh, I'm feeling so selfish,yeah, selfish.
Instead of in line whole woman.
I think it's just brilliant.
Dr. Dave Schramm (53:07):
Alexandra.
Hey, before we let you go, aswe wrap up here, we like to ask
all of our guests a couple ofquestions that in honor of the
name of our podcast StrongerMarriage Connection.
What do you feel like is thekey to a stronger marriage
connection?
Alexandra Stockwell (53:22):
Well, we've just been talking about it.
I think the absolute key to astronger marriage connection is
for both people to be devoted totheir own and one another's
personal growth, because whenthat is present, no matter what
else arises, you can navigate itwell and go from surviving to
(53:46):
thriving at every opportunity.
I just think how good it canget has no limit when you're
both oriented to reallysupporting and pursuing your own
and one another's personalgrowth.
Dr. Dave Schramm (54:00):
I love that.
I love that you said growthit's not just like happy or
happiness, happiness orsomething, but growth is more of
this journey.
Anyway, I love that, thank you.
Dr. Liz Hale (54:11):
I think sometimes I even get a little discouraged
sometimes.
Where it's when I'm not perfect?
Right, I'm a marriage therapistand I've worked on this for
years.
And yet I think the whole keyis but am I better than I was
last year?
Right, making the comparison.
Go in the right direction.
Alexandra Stockwell (54:28):
Yeah, in terms of we were talking about
curiosity earlier.
One of the questions I reallyenjoy is what have you learned
about yourself in the last week?
If that's something you andyour partner are asking one
another on a monthly or weeklybasis, it focuses your attention
on how you're growing growing,yeah, and it's beautiful.
Dr. Liz Hale (54:50):
Where can our podcast friends find out more
about you, alexandra?
All the tremendous resourcesyou offer on these crucial
topics of sensual and emotionalintimacy, you are truly a gift,
by the way oh, thank you.
Alexandra Stockwell (55:02):
um, alexandra stockwellcom.
That's my website.
From there, you can find outabout my programs, my book
Uncompromising Intimacy, whichis available on Amazon and
Audible.
I do private coaching with asmall number of people, and I
have a podcast too, the IntimateMarriage Podcast, where I go
(55:22):
into all of these kinds oftopics as well.
So a good place to go next isalexandrastockwellcom.
Dr. Liz Hale (55:30):
Okay, perfect, perfect.
And then just one last questionmy friend often comes up within
groups of friends or evenclients is frequency.
Can you please set the recordstraight before we let you go on
frequency regarding, maybe,date nights and sex itself?
Alexandra Stockwell (55:46):
Okay, well, let's start with sex itself.
I don't think that there is amagic number when it comes to
frequency.
I think the important thing isthat both of you feel good about
whatever the frequency is, andI am much more focused on the
quality of the sex than thequantity of the sex, although
(56:09):
when the quality of the sexyou're having is improving and
really good, then you're goingto want more of it sooner.
But it's not about a specificfrequency at all.
It's about really feelingsatisfied and more connected.
In terms of date nights, I tendto think date nights are
overrated for the followingreason I tend to think date
(56:32):
nights are overrated for thefollowing reason If it's about
dinner and a movie or going outand doing something that you do
once a week because date nightsare good, yes, that's a nice
break from the rest of your life, but I am much more a fan of
using the time together toreally turn towards one another
(56:53):
and deepen the quality ofconnection, and so it depends on
how full your life is.
I think once a week is wonderful, but maybe you ask one another
a curious question every eveningbefore going to sleep, in which
case it would be more daily,but certainly once a week is
(57:15):
beautiful, because then you'renever more than six days away
from time to really nourish therelationship.
Although you know, I just did apost on social media about date
nights in different phases ofour marriage, because when our
kids were young which wasextended we have big gaps in
(57:36):
four kids our date nights reallywere date nights at home and,
yes, they were scheduled in thecalendar and we turned towards
one another.
Maybe we had sex, maybe wedidn't, but the relationship was
nourished by that.
Then date nights were aboutgoing out.
Now we still have one child athome, but my favorite date is
(57:59):
spending the night at a hotelsomewhere.
So I think it really depends onthe phase of life and the most
important thing is not when youleave home together.
The most important thing isthat both of you can count on a
regular time to not talk aboutlogistics, not about kids, not
(58:21):
about work stresses, but reallyuse that time to turn towards
one another.
And if you're doing that once aweek so that's my answer you're
likely to do it every day as anatural consequence of it
feeling good, and it doesn'ttake that long to do it when
you're making a point of doingit on a regular basis.
Dr. Dave Schramm (58:41):
Well said yeah , yeah, well said hey.
As we wrap up our time together, dr Alexandra, what would you
say is the number one take-homemessage you want all of us to
remember from our time today,and it may be something that
you've already shared, but atakeaway of the day- what I hope
the takeaway is is that, nomatter how complicated or how
(59:07):
wonderful your marriage is,having a more fantastic
relationship is a learnableskill.
Alexandra Stockwell (59:15):
So, whether that is sensual sexual
expansion or expansion andcommunication, just wherever you
are, having it be better is alearnable skill.
Dr. Dave Schramm (59:28):
Okay, love it, love, love, love that.
Liz.
What about you?
What's your takeaway?
Dr. Liz Hale (59:34):
of the day.
Thank goodness right, I'm stillstuck.
That it's learnable.
I mean, I'm still stuck by thispeace, but not necessarily
passion.
I think that's reallyfascinating to me and I love.
I just wrote some notes hereabout using a gentle, kind tone
and speaking more slowly, withfull breath.
(59:54):
I think that's really the magic.
So thank you for that, Dave.
What about you?
What's the golden nugget you'retaking away from?
Our time today with DrAlexander Stockwell.
Dr. Dave Schramm (01:00:05):
Yeah, all kinds of things, Liz, and that
was one of them.
Actually, the tone of voicethat we use in the paints.
That completely affects how themessage is received from the
other person.
And then something right upfront we talked about that it
starts with kind of a mindsetand the curiosity and kind of
that shift that you had with theonions.
But then it was behavior.
(01:00:26):
Right, if we don't act on themindset, if we just kind of
think about but don't act,there's no change that happens
with it.
So I love that combination ofthoughts but then turning it
into action.
Yeah, it stood out to me today.
So thank you for that insight.
Yeah, oh, wow.
(01:00:46):
Well, it has been wonderful.
Dr Alexandra Stockwell, thankyou again for joining us and
spending time and sharing somuch wisdom and helpful tips
with us today.
Alexandra Stockwell (01:00:57):
Really my pleasure.
I love how the two of you playoff of one another and are so
welcoming so that we can goanywhere to serve the listeners.
Dr. Dave Schramm (01:01:07):
Yeah, quite the team, quite the team right.
Alexandra Stockwell (01:01:09):
Totally yeah.
Dr. Dave Schramm (01:01:10):
Yeah, wonderful, well, wonderful, well
, we will see you next time.
That does it for us.
We'll see you next time.
Another episode of StrongerMarriage Connection.
Dr. Liz Hale (01:01:18):
And remember friends.
It's the small and simplethings that create a stronger
marriage connection.
Take good care of yourself andeach other.
Bye-bye now.
Dr. Dave Schramm (01:01:29):
Thanks for joining us today.
Hey, do us a favor and take asecond to subscribe to our
podcast and the Utah MarriageCommission YouTube channel at
Utah Marriage Commission, whereyou can watch this and every
episode of the show.
Be sure to smash the likebutton, leave a comment and
share this episode with a friend.
You can also follow andinteract with us on Instagram at
(01:01:50):
Stronger Marriage Life, andFacebook at Stronger Marriage,
so be sure to share with uswhich topics you loved or which
guests we should have on theshow.
Next, if you want even moreresources to improve your
marriage or relationshipconnection, visit
StrongerMarriageorg, whereyou'll find free workshops,
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more
(01:02:13):
e-courses, in-depth webinars,relationship surveys and more.
Each episode of StrongerMarriage Connection is hosted
and sponsored by the UtahMarriage Commission at Utah
State University.
And finally, a big thanks toour producer, rex Polanis, and
the team at Utah StateUniversity and you, our audience
.
You make this show possible.
The opinions, findings,conclusions and recommendations
expressed in this podcast do notnecessarily reflect the views
(01:02:34):
of the Utah Marriage Commission.
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