April 30, 2025 • 36 mins
Lizzie Eastham and Sam Rickard present Studio 1 - Vision Australia Radio’s weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view.
On this week’s show
"International Guide Dog Day”
For international Guide Dog Day, we ask; what would your dog say... if it could talk? Thanks to the input of the Dog Guide Handlers Australia Facebook page, we get some answers - with the volunteer readers of Vision Australia Radio Adelaide bringing those comments to life.
Lizzie also catches up with Lester Craim, the Client Services manager for Seeing Eye Dogs Australia; and Lisa and Anthony share their experiences as Guide Dog Handlers.
Studio 1 welcomes any input from our listeners. If you have any experience or thoughts about issues covered in this episode or believe there is something we should be talking about.
EMAIL: studio1@visionaustralia.org or leave comment on the station’s Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/VARadioNetwork
A special thank you to Seeing Eye Dogs Australia and Lester Craim for the interview Thank you to Anthony and Lisa for your insights. Also special thanks to everyone who contributed to the facebook comments on the Dog Guide Handlers Australia Facebook page - and to our tireless volunteers at Vision Australia Radio Adelaide for bringing those comments to life.
Dog Guides Australia: https://sed.visionaustralia.org/
Dog Guides Handlers Australia: https://dgha.org.au/
This program was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at https://cbf.org.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:06):
This is studio one on Vision Australia radio.
S2 (00:14):
Hello, I'm Lizzie.
S3 (00:16):
And I'm Sam.
S2 (00:17):
And you're listening to studio one, Vision Australia radio's weekly
look at life from a blind and low vision point
of view.
S3 (00:22):
This week it's International Guide Dog Day. We ask, what
would your dog say if it could talk?
S2 (00:28):
We also chat with Lester Crame, the client services manager
for Seeing Eye Dogs, and Lisa and Anthony share their
experiences as guide dog handlers.
S3 (00:37):
As we always say at this point, please do get
in touch with the show. Whether you have experiences of
any of the issues covered on this week's episode of
Studio One, or if you think there's something we should
be talking about. You never know. Your story and insight
may help somebody who's dealing with something similar.
S2 (00:52):
Please contact us via email at Studio One at Vision Australia.
That's studio number one at Vision Australia. Or of course,
you can drop us a note on the station's Facebook
page by going to facebook.com. Comcast network.
S3 (01:09):
Okay. Happy guide dog day, Lizzy.
S2 (01:11):
Happy international guide dog day. Sam.
S3 (01:14):
And yes, uh, as we can see that Lacey cares
a lot about it. I think she's already gone to sleep.
Is that her snoring in the background?
S2 (01:21):
Yeah, I think so. Uh, I don't know. She. Since
she's retired, she's living in the lap of luxury, like,
sprawled out all four legs and arms out at all
ridiculous angles and just enjoying herself. I have to say, though,
that her life hasn't changed much in the day to day,
because there's still a lot of places that, like, know
(01:43):
her very well because we've gone there regularly, so she
still comes to church with me, she still comes here,
she still goes to, um, the other places that I
volunteer at. And they all love her. So it's not like,
you know, her daily outings have dropped significantly.
S3 (01:59):
She may not have got any special treats for, uh,
International Guide Dog Day, but she's certainly got a lot
of treats on Friday, didn't she?
S2 (02:05):
Yeah, we had the Anzac Day barbecue at our place.
The yearly tradition that we we do, and yes, a
lot of people decided that it would be a perfect
opportunity to feed Lacey. Either that or Lacey pounced on
her opportunity to get food from people, which is fine, because,
you know, um, no longer having to deal with the
(02:26):
ramifications of having a dog with a upset stomach while
trying to get her to work the next day. So,
you know, it's not as big of a deal as
what it would have been if she was still working.
S3 (02:36):
Well, yeah, I told you the story off air when, uh,
a friend of mine had brought his almost new guide
dog around to my place. And at that stage, I
still had Max the Wonder dog. I could call him.
He was a half breed fox terrier, um, blue heeler,
all sorts of stuff. He came from Darwin. Um, and yeah,
the dog had a bit of fun out in the backyard,
(02:58):
digging up all of Max's bones and chewing on them,
and apparently had the runs for the next three days afterwards,
so that for you would not necessarily be a problem because, well,
it's a problem for your backyard, but it's not really
a problem for just getting around with a guide dog.
S2 (03:13):
Yes. In saying that, I've also had similar situation where,
you know, I've been to someone's house and other people
have fed Lacey, or she's gotten into something and yeah,
I've had to deal with the ramifications of that while
we're working. Um, yeah. There was a particular incident in
a train station, but we won't go there.
S3 (03:31):
Mhm.
S2 (03:31):
I think Lacey would be too embarrassed.
S3 (03:34):
If you are listening, maybe for the first time, or
haven't caught up in our conversations in the past about
how guide dogs sometimes behave. Um, they're not perfect. They're
essentially dogs. They're well trained dogs. And we're going to
go into that, uh, this show. But they are still dogs.
And dogs do misbehave. So tell us a little bit
about the first person we're talking to.
S2 (03:56):
Right. Yes. We're going to be talking to Lester Crame,
the client services manager for Seeing Eye Dogs. Now, before
he was a client services manager, he was an instructor,
and he actually looked after Lacey and I for several
years of our journey together. A lovely bloke, wonderful to
talk to, and he tells us all about the life
of seeing eye dogs, how much it takes to raise
(04:17):
a dog, and all of the ins and outs that
go with being a seeing eye dog handler.
S3 (04:23):
We'll also be catching up with Anthony and Lisa. Some
might have heard of Anthony. He was a former judo
player at various Paralympics gone by. In fact, we shared
a flat back in Barcelona back in the day. Didn't, uh. Well,
there was a few of us in that flat. There was, uh,
but I actually that was the same year I shared
a room with Ed Holicky. So yes, it was a
(04:45):
all us blinky's in together. Good fun.
S2 (04:47):
Lovely.
S3 (04:48):
Anyway, on to Leicester.
S2 (04:53):
So tell us, what's your role at Seeing Eye Dogs Australia?
S4 (04:56):
I am the client services manager.
S2 (04:59):
Okay. And how long have you been in that position for?
S4 (05:02):
Uh, in that position probably about six years or so now. And, uh,
the ten years before that, I had been practicing as
a senior dog instructor.
S2 (05:14):
So what made you want to become a senior dogs
instructor in the first place?
S4 (05:18):
I think the very first attraction was the dogs, the
work with the animals. And then, uh, the more I
was got involved with that, then the more I understood
about the, you know, the role of the dog with
the person who is blind or low vision and the
actual training with people and getting to enjoy that. Um,
(05:40):
and I think that in, in many ways, that's a
more satisfying part of the job to, to work with
people at the end of the day. And then the
more we practice as well, it's the type of job that,
you know, very much. So the two days are never
the same and fairly varied in what we do, the
people we meet, where people live and Australia being that
(06:00):
kind of example. And I'd seen dogs, we get to
travel a little bit. People are all over the country.
And so it's it's been. Yeah, it's been great.
S2 (06:08):
Fantastic. Tell us about the assessment process. So if someone
comes to you and says I'm interested in applying for
seeing Eye Dog, what's the process from there?
S4 (06:17):
We will usually have a first chat with the person.
One of our instructors will have a first conversation with
the person to understand what they want of a dog,
what they, and sometimes what they know about dog mobility.
Sometimes people don't don't know a lot or sometimes people have.
There are a lot of misconceptions out there. You know,
(06:38):
the dog is perfect and the dog is, uh, does everything.
And people just kind of hang on. And so we
we navigate that conversation early on. And if everything seems
to be on the, on the right track, we will
then send an application pack and whatever format people prefer
to receive that information. And that contains some, some more
(07:00):
information than we Requests that there's a couple of forms
in there that we want to receive back. When we
receive back those forms, we will. Then again, one of
the structures, one of our service providers will get in
touch with the person to organise a face to face
visit for a more formal we call it assessment, but
it is a conversation is gained and all the information
(07:21):
that we need to to really understand the person, what
they do, what they don't do, how they get out
and about now, how their current independent mobility is where
they go, how they do it, and obviously provide a
whole more of a whole lot of information that about
working with the dog. And then we go from there.
S2 (07:43):
And as far as the qualities that you look for
in a dog and a person to make sure that
they match. What sort of qualities are you looking for?
S4 (07:49):
Yeah, matching. Well, it's I keep saying it's probably one
of the, if not the hardest thing that we do
in this job is this arranged marriage of sorts. We
know the dogs fairly well. We've had the dogs for
well overall for over a year and a half. You
know at least. But we also try to obtain as
(08:12):
much as relevant information as we can about the person
and their needs so that we can make that really as,
as best decision as we can. And most of the
time we do get it right. We are always very
open with people that there is there's very commonly a
level of compromise. You know, someone of course wants they
(08:33):
need what they need and they want what they want. But, uh,
it's rare that we can get 100% right and perfectly
every single time. So how much can the person adjust?
You know, how much can the person, uh, work with,
with the dog, with, with? If the dog offers, say, 90%
of what they need can can we talk about these
(08:55):
other this other 10% and you know, as an example
but it is it can it can be tricky. We
know that it's very important, the dog as a mobility tool.
People will be walking a lot. And so the walking
speed is a big one. Making sure that we we
hopefully get that speed right. Uh, the dog is not
too slow or too fast for someone, and that the
dog is, uh, the right fit for the person's for
(09:20):
most of their, their environments. And so what's their home
life like and what's their what environments are they working in?
Are they going to the city, for instance? Are they
using public transport on a regular basis or they live
somewhere that may be a little bit quieter? Maybe there
is no or it's very rare, occasional public transport involved
and different types of things that it's it's a it's
(09:43):
a quieter environment and we have dogs that fit all
those profiles. And so because we of course know that
we have clients who, uh, live in all different areas
and have different needs. And so trying to find the,
the right fit every time it's. Yeah, it's it's very interesting.
S2 (09:59):
So how long does the training process take? Not just for, uh,
the dog itself, but training the handler and the dog together.
S4 (10:07):
The dog I mentioned before. A year and a half.
That first year of the dog's life, they will be with, well,
the first couple of months of their life, they will
be in, in the breeding center, in the puppy center.
Most of our dogs are bred. We breed them, and
they are born here in Melbourne, and they will spend
those first eight weeks there. From the eight weeks until 12, 13,
(10:29):
14 months of age, they will be then uh, with
the with a volunteer person or family sometimes who will
be raising them, the puppy, the puppy care and we
call it. That's the socialization stage. It is definitely training.
There's and there's a staff member from our puppy team
who supports the volunteers. And we want the dog to
(10:50):
get used to the world in a, in a very
summarized way so that they are, uh, at that age,
at the, say, 12 months of age when they come
in for training. They for formal training, guiding training that
they are the the world environments are not going to
pose a surprise or an additional stress to the dog.
(11:12):
And so then we spend another five months, more or
less five months with the dog, with one of our
instructors or trainers providing that guiding training specific for the
dog to become a seeing eye dog. And then the
very last month we say a month, we reserve a
month more or less, but it's typically between 2 and
4 weeks that the also an instructor who are our
(11:35):
service providers will spend with the client, with the handler
and that new dog providing the training that they need.
And that training can be at the person's home and
in their own environments from from day one. Or they
can they sometimes come to Melbourne and stay in one
of our residences here for, uh, a week or two.
(11:56):
And then we also do in those cases, we also
do a period of another, usually a week at home,
doing that last bit of the adaptation and settling back home.
S2 (12:07):
I imagine being a carer is a popular thing that
people volunteer for, right?
S4 (12:11):
It is, it is. We always need more. Uh, but
it is. We breed over 200 dogs every year, so
we need.
S2 (12:19):
Wow.
S4 (12:19):
A fairly high number of volunteers on a regular basis. Sometimes,
perhaps for different reasons, the pups need to move, you know.
So we need way more than just, I dunno, just
200 people is a lot, but we need hundreds and
hundreds of volunteers and we've been lucky. But we always yeah,
we always need more. It can be hard as well.
Of course people sign up understanding what they're signing up
(12:43):
for and they know the dog is. Ultimately, if the
dog is successful, they're going, you know, to do a
good job for someone, but it's still hard to raise
a pup and for for an ear and then have
to return them. And sometimes people are really, really enjoy
the raising of the of the young dog. You know
that they they don't actually don't want to to have
(13:04):
to worry about an old dog. So they just they,
they enjoy that those initial stages. And so they when
the dog turns about one and they hand them back
to us, they get a new puppy and they restart
the cycle. And it's it's great and it works for everybody.
It works really well.
S2 (13:19):
That's amazing. Yeah. Lacey's puppy care still keeps in contact
with us, right? Right. She used to send me videos
of Lacey as a pup. She was a bit of
a stirrer, right?
S4 (13:30):
Yeah. In the last few years, we've been trying hard
to make sure that we know that we. We keep
saying that it takes a village to raise one of
these dogs, and we know that it's important, as I said,
people signing up for a reason. But we know that
it's important for the people who are doing the for
the puppy raisers to actually have closer contact with this
(13:52):
with the end result. You know, when things go well,
the dog makes it as a seeing eye dog that
when cases like yourself that if people can be in
touch with the volunteer, we know that's really powerful so
that people really connect those those dots. But even when
that doesn't happen, you know, we have other ways to
keep people to to make people aware of what's happening.
Maybe it's not their dog. Maybe their pup didn't make
(14:14):
it as a senior dog. But the that people understand
what the, the, the goal is or the journey is.
So that's we know that's that's a really powerful motivator.
S1 (14:25):
This is studio one on Vision Australia Radio.
S5 (14:31):
If I say loud enough do we get to go home?
S6 (14:34):
Oi oi oi oi. I did what you asked. Where's
my treat?
S3 (14:38):
A couple walking and holding hands. I must split them up.
S7 (14:42):
I know where to get a treat by taking you
to the Bunnings sausage sizzle. When that's done, I'll take
you back to the pub, give and take.
S8 (14:51):
It's incredibly unfair that that pet dog is allowed to
charge the fence and bark its tiny mind out at
me as I walk by. While I have to act
like a professional.
S9 (15:02):
More food please.
S10 (15:03):
There's a dog. There's a dog I want to play.
S5 (15:05):
To the pet dog walkers who insist on those stupid
retractable leads. Please, please, please just don't.
S6 (15:13):
More food. Please. I'm so hungry.
S9 (15:17):
No, no, don't pull me away. I really wanted that
half eaten muesli bar on the floor. And all those
leaves blowing in the wind looked good too. Are they food?
S10 (15:28):
What do you mean? You want to go to the hairdresser?
I could have sworn you said the pet store.
S11 (15:34):
If I walk slowly enough and sigh loudly enough, will
we get to take a shortcut home?
S6 (15:40):
We've been together eight years. And you still don't know?
Left from right.
S5 (15:44):
Are people in this city walk way too slow?
S10 (15:47):
So many sniffs. So little time.
S11 (15:50):
Of course I'm not lost. I'm exploring.
S9 (15:53):
Everything is about me.
S10 (15:55):
If I look cute and give you the big puppy eyes.
Then will you give me food?
S11 (16:01):
Let me just stop by this tree. I need to
sniff around a bit. I'll only be ten minutes.
S6 (16:06):
Don't tell me I know, I know, I know I
can find it without you there. Told ya. Now where's
my treat?
S10 (16:13):
It's such hard.
S3 (16:13):
Work being adored by so many people I've never met.
S12 (16:17):
More food please.
S2 (16:23):
It's very interesting, isn't it? Sam, we asked a lot
of people what they think their dogs would say if
they could talk, and we were inundated with responses. So
once again, thanks to the members of the Guide Dog
Handlers Australia page, I have to say, if Lacey could talk,
I think it would be a combination of several of
those things probably. You know, she would scoff at the
(16:46):
slow walkers. She also doesn't like people walking 2 or
3 abreast and feels that she must split them up.
But she's also obsessed with food, so I feel like
her comment would be when do I get food? Why
are we walking so slow? And why do you people
have to walk three abreast?
S3 (17:05):
I'd also add a few choices. I'd also add a
few choice comments about steps because we have to go
up and down steps all. Each time there and she's
managed to nearly run you down. At one stage and
always steers automatically towards the lift as well.
S2 (17:18):
She has tripped me down a flight of stairs in
our younger and our younger days. Yeah, I think Lacey
has an aversion to stairs and hills too. I don't
I don't understand.
S3 (17:27):
All right, so let's hear from Anthony and Lisa.
S2 (17:32):
Happy international guide dog day.
S13 (17:34):
Thank you. You too. Thank you. So I wanted to ask,
how long have you both been guide dog handlers for?
S14 (17:41):
Well, it's, uh, been working dogs for about 40 years.
I'm on Guide dog number six, so it's been a. Well,
the majority of my life nowadays.
S13 (17:49):
And, Elisa, I.
S15 (17:51):
Got my first guide dog back in 2014, and I'm
on my second guide dog. It was a little gap
in between when I had my son where I did
get a dog. So it was over ten years now.
S2 (18:01):
So. Anthony, what made you want to become a guide
dog handler as opposed to using the cane?
S14 (18:07):
Very controversial subject when I lost my sight. Um, quite
often it's harder on your parents and family because I
lost my sight at the age of 17 in a
car accident. And family tend to be more effective than
I was at the time, and my parents more or
less pushed me into having a guide dog. I'd never
really thought about it. I was getting around quite well
(18:28):
with the cane, but like a lot of people, they
they think people can't aren't safe by themselves using a cane.
They think the dog is the answer to the solution.
So I was, um, more or less pushed or coerced
into getting a guide dog. And um, much to my amazement,
I found that guide dogs can't do quite what the
general public or what my parents thought they could do. So, um,
(18:51):
that's how I. I got my first guide dog. It
wasn't necessarily my idea. It was because people had negative
attitudes about blind people as individuals. The reason was I
was pushed or coerced into getting a guide dog.
S2 (19:04):
And what about you, Lisa?
S15 (19:05):
I had an opposite experience to Anthony, in the sense
that the family was a bit more resistant to me
getting a guide dog. After years of being using a cane.
But for me, because I actually have a high speed
of walk which averages around about six kilometers per hour,
the cane wasn't really doing the alert soon enough for me.
So the cane would hit an object and I'd hit
(19:26):
it very quickly afterwards. So not enough reaction time for me,
where obviously a guide dog can see the obstacle much
further out and just walk me around it. So I
found that was more advantageous for me. So, Anthony.
S2 (19:37):
Going back to what you said about you, like your
family's misconceptions, I guess, or their attitudes and of you
being safe with a guide dog. Do you feel like
the public received you better? Do you feel like people.
S15 (19:51):
Were.
S2 (19:52):
More willing to give you assistance or nicer to you?
S14 (19:55):
I think with the white cane people have more pity
for you for some reason or other. There's something about
the white cane the general public have a different attitude
towards with the guide dog having a guide dog. What
you find is people won't necessarily talk to you, but
they'll talk to the guide dog, you know. You know,
if you ask for directions from somewhere, I've had people
actually talk to the dog and give the dog the address,
(20:17):
as if the dog would understand where 44 Grenfell Street
would be, which is quite amusing. So completely two different
responses from being a cane user and a guide dog user. Also,
I think the guide dog is a good icebreaker. So
you tend to meet more people through the dog is
a good way of meeting people, especially if you do
a lot of travelling. So um, whereas the cane people,
(20:39):
they get a bit, I guess, either ignored or thought
upon less, I would say.
S2 (20:45):
Lisa, I know you've had the opposite.
S15 (20:47):
Sort of.
S2 (20:48):
Um, reaction where you've been out and people have approached
you because you've had the dog. Is that.
S15 (20:54):
Right? Yep. A lot of people actually do tend to
try and invade your privacy, I guess, like if I
was any other person on the bus sitting on the bus,
most people would ignore me. But because I have the dog,
everybody wants to talk to you. And sometimes, you know,
I'm happy to interact. But there are other times, like
anybody where I just want to sit on my own,
be within my own thoughts. And it's difficult sometimes when
(21:16):
people keep going to ask you about the dog.
S2 (21:19):
What do you think are the public's biggest misconception when
it comes to guard dogs? Like, what are what are
some of the biggest beliefs or stereotypes that the public
have that just aren't true?
S14 (21:29):
I think people think the dogs can do more than
they're capable of, that they think you just give their
dog the address and hang on. And when the dog
stops you, they're right and it's not quite how it works.
You have to direct the dog. Probably the other biggest myth,
I think. I think dogs can do traffic, tell you
when it's safe to cross the road, and they clearly can't.
And and the general public have no conception or the thought.
(21:53):
They'd never even think that it that actually the person
that's blind, it's particularly when it's safe to cross the road,
and that's usually at light crossings and things like that
a lot easier nowadays with those audio tactile crossings. And
so I would say the dogs doing traffic is probably
the biggest myth, followed by that the dog can do
anything you ask it to. Boy, um, giving it directions
(22:16):
that are define it, which is not true. I've even
had some people think the dogs get the, um, if
you want to get the shots, you can just tell
it and I'll grab the can of baked beans off
the shelf and get it for you, which is, of course,
not true. So lots of, um, unrealistic expectations I think
people have.
S15 (22:32):
I didn't know dogs could read.
S14 (22:33):
Neither did I. Yes.
S2 (22:35):
Lisa, you know, I've actually had this conversation too, because
I believe you've had issues with the NDIS because they'll
either let you have a guide dog or.
S15 (22:44):
A.
S2 (22:44):
Support worker. Talk us through that.
S15 (22:46):
So, um, a while ago, when I was fighting for
a plan that I needed for NDIS, when they'd given
me the funding to get the guide dog. They said
they were going to take away the community access Support one.
So the support our support worker to take me out
to do shopping and all that. And when I actually
questioned him like, why? And they're like, oh, well, you
(23:07):
got the guide dog. And I'm like, the guide dog
cannot help me. They're like, yeah, but they can walk
you around the shops. I said, yes, but it cannot
find the baked beans in the middle of all these cans.
It cannot find a shop that I don't know where
the shop is. And it was quite frustrating to have
to talk to an agency for people with disabilities about
something like this, because they had absolutely no idea how
(23:27):
the dog worked. I had to explain to them that
it's basically a replacement of a mobility aid. It is
not a replacement of a human. That's true.
S2 (23:35):
I mean.
S15 (23:35):
Lacey's got no clue about low.
S2 (23:37):
Carb.
S15 (23:38):
Products.
S2 (23:38):
Or, uh, bargain hunting, um.
S15 (23:40):
Or making sure you get the no sugar diet drink
or whatever it is.
S14 (23:44):
Yeah, it's just straight to the dog food.
S15 (23:45):
Yeah, but the only food they understand in the shops. Yeah, right.
So last question.
S2 (23:51):
Do you have any heartwarming or funny stories that you
can share with us about your experience with Dog guides.
S14 (23:57):
I got quite a few, but probably one. Um. I
was hitchhiking around Australia with my first guide dog and
was hitching late at night somewhere over the high plains there,
and my guide dog was a union orientated dog, so
that meant he knew guide dog work well and he
only did guide dog work. No protecting the owner if
there was danger and it was late at night, I
(24:18):
was hitching and I heard something creeping behind me. Like
after a while it was definitely stalking me and I
looked at my guide dog for support, hoping he'd turn
and start growling and, you know, doing that protective behaviour. Uh,
he curled up and went to sleep and I was
left to my own devices. And then when I felt
the breath of this thing touching my shoulder, I was
(24:39):
in sheer panic and went, turned and grabbed it. And
as I did, I heard a big.
S2 (24:43):
Oh my.
S14 (24:43):
Goodness. And it was a horse that had got my
scent and came up and, um, and my dog slept
through the whole interaction. So it was quite a comical thing.
And he did God's work. And that was it.
S15 (24:54):
What about you, Lisa? I don't know about any heart
warming stuff with him, but, um, there was an instance
that he did his job. Absolutely. So. Well, um, I
was actually at the heading to the hospital, and I
was walking around along the pedestrian area, and the pedestrian
area does not have any gutter or anything to differentiate
between the pedestrian and where the cars go through for
(25:17):
where they drop off and pick up. And as we're
walking along, where the tactile part is, which is obviously
where somebody's blind can tell the difference, a car had
must have been coming in fast or whatever, but came
straight through between two cars. Floyd had actually spotted it
and just pulled me back. Wow. Out of the way
of that car. And like, this was seconds of reaction
(25:40):
time he did that for. And the other special thing
I like to brag about with Floyd is that I've
actually taught him how to use talking buttons to ask
for what he needs. So I have a button at
the back door for him to press when he wants
to go toilet. So it goes busy, busy. I have
one on the fridge which says treat please and one
near his dog food where it's time to eat. He
(26:00):
reminds me and presses. Hungry? Yeah.
S2 (26:02):
Do you think that he goes to the hungry button
the same.
S15 (26:05):
Time every night or. Yeah, he has that clock working
so well he knows exactly when to remind me. Doesn't
mean I feed him right then and there, but he
knows to remind me. I think most.
S2 (26:14):
Dogs know.
S15 (26:15):
When their. When their bellies are empty. So if your
dogs could talk, what would they say?
S14 (26:21):
More food please.
S15 (26:23):
I don't know, judging by the look on my dog's
face half the time, I swear he rolls his eyes
a lot, so he's probably going stupid humans. Yeah.
S16 (26:31):
I like that.
S2 (26:34):
Isn't it interesting, Sam? I think if any dog spends
any length of time with a human, they're often baffled
by our behavior, just as we're baffled by some of theirs.
S3 (26:42):
Well, considering that, yes, they have to be taught to
communicate verbally, they most of their communication is actually, uh,
sign language. I mean, when a dog barks, it's just
saying hey or oi! Um. Anyway, let's go back to
our regularly scheduled interview and the question that we ask.
It's kind of the old John West question. Um, what
happens to the ones that get thrown back?
S2 (27:07):
What happens to the dogs if they don't make the
process of becoming a teen idol?
S4 (27:12):
Um, yeah. The majority don't make it. It's a really
high bar that we, we set for, for our dogs
in terms of physical health and in terms of temperament
and behavior. The very first thing that we do with
dogs that are not going to make it as training dogs,
training dogs for ourselves, is that we will assess them
for potentially other assistance animal roles. We don't have other
(27:35):
assistance dog programs ourselves, but we have partner agencies who do.
And so we will do an internal assessment if we
think those dogs fit the profile that our colleagues in,
in other external organizations are looking for. If they are,
then we'll be in touch with those agencies and say, hey,
we think we have a dog, you know, and then
(27:55):
follow through that process so that they can eventually go
through their own assessment. And we have then placed or
our colleagues have in other agencies, have placed a number
of dogs every year that don't make it as dogs,
but they're still doing a job for for someone else
in a different in a different walk of life. If
dogs are not suitable for another type of work, then
(28:18):
they will be. They will typically become a pet, either
with it's common that they will, uh, the family or
the puppy raiser will choose to adopt. And when they
don't choose to adopt, we have a an adoptions team
and they will go to what we call public adoption. Yeah.
And there is a yeah, it's an incredibly, uh, competitive
(28:42):
area of our business and people always being really interested
in adopting those dogs. The dog might be, like I said,
because of that high bar. The dog might actually be
a really healthy dog, you know, and that has gone
sometimes through has received quite a lot of training. But
we for one reason or another, he's not going to
cut it. Let's say it's too sociable and really enjoys
(29:05):
is always getting too distracted by other dogs or by
a number of stimulus that could be happening in the environment,
and that's going to stop them being a safe and
successful dog. But they would still potentially be a really
nice pet for someone. So it's yeah, it's really interesting.
S2 (29:21):
Well, I can understand why it would be popular because
they've already been through like some amount of training. So
you don't have to take them to puppy school or
all this sort of thing.
S4 (29:31):
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes they can, uh, even during that first year,
the dogs, we might see things that will make us
make the decision, you know, fairly early in that we
don't think we always, of course, put a what we
call it a training plan. And so we will take
steps to, to see if we can influence what we're not.
You know, what's not being so good that we've seen
(29:52):
about the dog. We will put things in place. We'll
give them a number of weeks to see if they
turn around and give every dog the best chance to
to eventually, hopefully become a seeing eye dog. But it
doesn't happen that way. So then we just want to
focus our resources on on the dogs that we think
will make it.
S2 (30:09):
So in terms of the costs involved of training a
dog and making sure all of its health is up
to scratch, how much does it cost to fund a
seeing eye dog, or to to train a seeing eye dog?
S4 (30:20):
For a number of years now, we've been using the
figure of $50,000. Um, we haven't changed that. It's probably,
you know, in the last few years in particular with, uh,
all sorts of increases, but we still say $50,000. So
in situations where government funding is available, that's the cost
we use. That's the figure we use and when and
(30:41):
for fundraising purposes, we also use that figure. But everything
is getting a little a little more expensive nowadays.
S2 (30:48):
Yeah I think everything's going up. Cost of living? Yeah.
So how long do the dogs usually work for? What
age do you retire them at?
S4 (30:56):
We don't have a set age. Some organizations do. That's.
It's not that unusual in in the dog guide world
for agencies have some sort of a hard cutoff. You
know when we're looking at our data and then also
consulting with International Guide Dog Federation, which has, I think
about 80 organizations from around the globe. The average working time, uh,
(31:23):
working tenure of a of a dog is approximately six
and a half years. And so.
S2 (31:30):
Really?
S4 (31:30):
Yeah. And so we thought it was a little bit higher.
But a number of years ago we went to look
at our data and, and that's, that's what it is.
And so but it's an average right. And so many
dogs go over that. Sure. For sure. And some dogs
don't don't quite make it to that for us because
and this also is something that changes from organization to organization.
We issue dogs when they are about one and a half.
(31:54):
That means that eight years of age is more or
less the the average age for us when dogs are retiring.
But many dogs work best eight years of age. But
it's not. So the dog turns eight. They are, uh,
within their the animal world. They are older dogs, you know,
geriatric dogs. And anything that people, the handlers get out of,
(32:17):
out of work with their dogs after eight is a bonus.
And it's, it's above average. But it's yeah, it does happen.
Of course.
S2 (32:24):
100%. Yeah. Lacey retired three months shy of her 11th birthday.
So I think we.
S15 (32:30):
Had a really.
S2 (32:30):
Good innings.
S4 (32:31):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Past ten. We we used to, we
used to think it was ten. But then we realized
that's as, as an average. It doesn't work out that
way at all. But but yeah many dogs go go
to ten and well almost 11 like I said.
S2 (32:45):
Yeah I think she just stopped wanting to work. Yeah.
But she still wanted all the other benefits of being
a seeing eye dog, like being able to go out. So.
S4 (32:53):
Right.
S2 (32:53):
So how do people get involved whether they want to
volunteer or donate or, uh, you know, just help out
in some way? Where can they go? What can they.
S4 (33:01):
Do? Yeah. Uh, I think our website is, is the,
the main way, uh, we have phone, uh, phone numbers
of course, as well, if the, uh, if people don't,
don't like the idea of, of the website, uh, you
can search for seeing eye dogs on Google. You can
Google that, uh, Vision Australia, seeing eye dogs. That's that's us. But, uh, any. Yeah.
(33:24):
Or in throughout all all the socials the usual. But
we yeah we always need support I mentioned about it
does take uh, it takes a village in terms of staff, volunteers, uh, sponsors,
of course. Uh, everyone who wants to support us, we're
always needing more. We we always want to get more
(33:45):
dogs out, more dogs and more quickly. And so we. Yeah,
we'd appreciate any type of support.
S2 (33:50):
Perfect. And we will have the link to the website.
The phone number, all of that on the podcast notes. Well,
I have one last question for you. And in my view,
it's the most important question. Which do you prefer, black
labs or gold ones?
S4 (34:04):
I oh yeah. I think the political answer is I
don't have a preference, but I can tell you that
our pet dog at home is a black lab.
S2 (34:15):
Good choice, my friend. Good choice. That's a wrap for
the week. You can contact Seeing Eye Dogs Australia on 1800Â 751Â 465.
Or you can go to Sydney, Australia to find out more.
S3 (34:35):
A big thank you to Lester, Anthony and Lisa and
an even bigger thank you to the Heavenly Host. Otherwise
known as the members of the Dog Guide Handlers Australia
Facebook page and the amazing volunteers and staff of Vision
Australia Radio Adelaide, who brought these comments to life.
S2 (34:52):
And of course a big thank you for listening. And
as usual, you can download this program along with some
extra content on Apple, Spotify, Google or your favorite podcast platform.
S3 (35:03):
Next week we catch up with Victoria Hunt and Francois
Jacobs from SBS as we talk about audio description.
S2 (35:09):
But between now and then, please do get in touch
with the show. Whether you have experience of any of
the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio One,
or if you think there's something we should be talking about,
you never know. Your story and insight may help someone
who is dealing with something similar.
S3 (35:24):
Our email address is studio one. Org. That's studio number
one at Vision Australia. Org or you can leave us
a comment on our various social media pages. Search for
VA Radio Network. We want to hear from you.
S2 (35:37):
This program was made possible by the Community Broadcasting Foundation.
To find out more, go to.
S3 (35:45):
Bye for now.
This is studio one on Vision Australia radio.
S2 (00:14):
Hello, I'm Lizzie.
S3 (00:16):
And I'm Sam.
S2 (00:17):
And you're listening to studio one, Vision Australia radio's weekly
look at life from a blind and low vision point
of view.
S3 (00:22):
This week it's International Guide Dog Day. We ask, what
would your dog say if it could talk?
S2 (00:28):
We also chat with Lester Crame, the client services manager
for Seeing Eye Dogs, and Lisa and Anthony share their
experiences as guide dog handlers.
S3 (00:37):
As we always say at this point, please do get
in touch with the show. Whether you have experiences of
any of the issues covered on this week's episode of
Studio One, or if you think there's something we should
be talking about. You never know. Your story and insight
may help somebody who's dealing with something similar.
S2 (00:52):
Please contact us via email at Studio One at Vision Australia.
That's studio number one at Vision Australia. Or of course,
you can drop us a note on the station's Facebook
page by going to facebook.com. Comcast network.
S3 (01:09):
Okay. Happy guide dog day, Lizzy.
S2 (01:11):
Happy international guide dog day. Sam.
S3 (01:14):
And yes, uh, as we can see that Lacey cares
a lot about it. I think she's already gone to sleep.
Is that her snoring in the background?
S2 (01:21):
Yeah, I think so. Uh, I don't know. She. Since
she's retired, she's living in the lap of luxury, like,
sprawled out all four legs and arms out at all
ridiculous angles and just enjoying herself. I have to say, though,
that her life hasn't changed much in the day to day,
because there's still a lot of places that, like, know
(01:43):
her very well because we've gone there regularly, so she
still comes to church with me, she still comes here,
she still goes to, um, the other places that I
volunteer at. And they all love her. So it's not like,
you know, her daily outings have dropped significantly.
S3 (01:59):
She may not have got any special treats for, uh,
International Guide Dog Day, but she's certainly got a lot
of treats on Friday, didn't she?
S2 (02:05):
Yeah, we had the Anzac Day barbecue at our place.
The yearly tradition that we we do, and yes, a
lot of people decided that it would be a perfect
opportunity to feed Lacey. Either that or Lacey pounced on
her opportunity to get food from people, which is fine, because,
you know, um, no longer having to deal with the
(02:26):
ramifications of having a dog with a upset stomach while
trying to get her to work the next day. So,
you know, it's not as big of a deal as
what it would have been if she was still working.
S3 (02:36):
Well, yeah, I told you the story off air when, uh,
a friend of mine had brought his almost new guide
dog around to my place. And at that stage, I
still had Max the Wonder dog. I could call him.
He was a half breed fox terrier, um, blue heeler,
all sorts of stuff. He came from Darwin. Um, and yeah,
the dog had a bit of fun out in the backyard,
(02:58):
digging up all of Max's bones and chewing on them,
and apparently had the runs for the next three days afterwards,
so that for you would not necessarily be a problem because, well,
it's a problem for your backyard, but it's not really
a problem for just getting around with a guide dog.
S2 (03:13):
Yes. In saying that, I've also had similar situation where,
you know, I've been to someone's house and other people
have fed Lacey, or she's gotten into something and yeah,
I've had to deal with the ramifications of that while
we're working. Um, yeah. There was a particular incident in
a train station, but we won't go there.
S3 (03:31):
Mhm.
S2 (03:31):
I think Lacey would be too embarrassed.
S3 (03:34):
If you are listening, maybe for the first time, or
haven't caught up in our conversations in the past about
how guide dogs sometimes behave. Um, they're not perfect. They're
essentially dogs. They're well trained dogs. And we're going to
go into that, uh, this show. But they are still dogs.
And dogs do misbehave. So tell us a little bit
about the first person we're talking to.
S2 (03:56):
Right. Yes. We're going to be talking to Lester Crame,
the client services manager for Seeing Eye Dogs. Now, before
he was a client services manager, he was an instructor,
and he actually looked after Lacey and I for several
years of our journey together. A lovely bloke, wonderful to
talk to, and he tells us all about the life
of seeing eye dogs, how much it takes to raise
(04:17):
a dog, and all of the ins and outs that
go with being a seeing eye dog handler.
S3 (04:23):
We'll also be catching up with Anthony and Lisa. Some
might have heard of Anthony. He was a former judo
player at various Paralympics gone by. In fact, we shared
a flat back in Barcelona back in the day. Didn't, uh. Well,
there was a few of us in that flat. There was, uh,
but I actually that was the same year I shared
a room with Ed Holicky. So yes, it was a
(04:45):
all us blinky's in together. Good fun.
S2 (04:47):
Lovely.
S3 (04:48):
Anyway, on to Leicester.
S2 (04:53):
So tell us, what's your role at Seeing Eye Dogs Australia?
S4 (04:56):
I am the client services manager.
S2 (04:59):
Okay. And how long have you been in that position for?
S4 (05:02):
Uh, in that position probably about six years or so now. And, uh,
the ten years before that, I had been practicing as
a senior dog instructor.
S2 (05:14):
So what made you want to become a senior dogs
instructor in the first place?
S4 (05:18):
I think the very first attraction was the dogs, the
work with the animals. And then, uh, the more I
was got involved with that, then the more I understood
about the, you know, the role of the dog with
the person who is blind or low vision and the
actual training with people and getting to enjoy that. Um,
(05:40):
and I think that in, in many ways, that's a
more satisfying part of the job to, to work with
people at the end of the day. And then the
more we practice as well, it's the type of job that,
you know, very much. So the two days are never
the same and fairly varied in what we do, the
people we meet, where people live and Australia being that
(06:00):
kind of example. And I'd seen dogs, we get to
travel a little bit. People are all over the country.
And so it's it's been. Yeah, it's been great.
S2 (06:08):
Fantastic. Tell us about the assessment process. So if someone
comes to you and says I'm interested in applying for
seeing Eye Dog, what's the process from there?
S4 (06:17):
We will usually have a first chat with the person.
One of our instructors will have a first conversation with
the person to understand what they want of a dog,
what they, and sometimes what they know about dog mobility.
Sometimes people don't don't know a lot or sometimes people have.
There are a lot of misconceptions out there. You know,
(06:38):
the dog is perfect and the dog is, uh, does everything.
And people just kind of hang on. And so we
we navigate that conversation early on. And if everything seems
to be on the, on the right track, we will
then send an application pack and whatever format people prefer
to receive that information. And that contains some, some more
(07:00):
information than we Requests that there's a couple of forms
in there that we want to receive back. When we
receive back those forms, we will. Then again, one of
the structures, one of our service providers will get in
touch with the person to organise a face to face
visit for a more formal we call it assessment, but
it is a conversation is gained and all the information
(07:21):
that we need to to really understand the person, what
they do, what they don't do, how they get out
and about now, how their current independent mobility is where
they go, how they do it, and obviously provide a
whole more of a whole lot of information that about
working with the dog. And then we go from there.
S2 (07:43):
And as far as the qualities that you look for
in a dog and a person to make sure that
they match. What sort of qualities are you looking for?
S4 (07:49):
Yeah, matching. Well, it's I keep saying it's probably one
of the, if not the hardest thing that we do
in this job is this arranged marriage of sorts. We
know the dogs fairly well. We've had the dogs for
well overall for over a year and a half. You
know at least. But we also try to obtain as
(08:12):
much as relevant information as we can about the person
and their needs so that we can make that really as,
as best decision as we can. And most of the
time we do get it right. We are always very
open with people that there is there's very commonly a
level of compromise. You know, someone of course wants they
(08:33):
need what they need and they want what they want. But, uh,
it's rare that we can get 100% right and perfectly
every single time. So how much can the person adjust?
You know, how much can the person, uh, work with,
with the dog, with, with? If the dog offers, say, 90%
of what they need can can we talk about these
(08:55):
other this other 10% and you know, as an example
but it is it can it can be tricky. We
know that it's very important, the dog as a mobility tool.
People will be walking a lot. And so the walking
speed is a big one. Making sure that we we
hopefully get that speed right. Uh, the dog is not
too slow or too fast for someone, and that the
dog is, uh, the right fit for the person's for
(09:20):
most of their, their environments. And so what's their home
life like and what's their what environments are they working in?
Are they going to the city, for instance? Are they
using public transport on a regular basis or they live
somewhere that may be a little bit quieter? Maybe there
is no or it's very rare, occasional public transport involved
and different types of things that it's it's a it's
(09:43):
a quieter environment and we have dogs that fit all
those profiles. And so because we of course know that
we have clients who, uh, live in all different areas
and have different needs. And so trying to find the,
the right fit every time it's. Yeah, it's it's very interesting.
S2 (09:59):
So how long does the training process take? Not just for, uh,
the dog itself, but training the handler and the dog together.
S4 (10:07):
The dog I mentioned before. A year and a half.
That first year of the dog's life, they will be with, well,
the first couple of months of their life, they will
be in, in the breeding center, in the puppy center.
Most of our dogs are bred. We breed them, and
they are born here in Melbourne, and they will spend
those first eight weeks there. From the eight weeks until 12, 13,
(10:29):
14 months of age, they will be then uh, with
the with a volunteer person or family sometimes who will
be raising them, the puppy, the puppy care and we
call it. That's the socialization stage. It is definitely training.
There's and there's a staff member from our puppy team
who supports the volunteers. And we want the dog to
(10:50):
get used to the world in a, in a very
summarized way so that they are, uh, at that age,
at the, say, 12 months of age when they come
in for training. They for formal training, guiding training that
they are the the world environments are not going to
pose a surprise or an additional stress to the dog.
(11:12):
And so then we spend another five months, more or
less five months with the dog, with one of our
instructors or trainers providing that guiding training specific for the
dog to become a seeing eye dog. And then the
very last month we say a month, we reserve a
month more or less, but it's typically between 2 and
4 weeks that the also an instructor who are our
(11:35):
service providers will spend with the client, with the handler
and that new dog providing the training that they need.
And that training can be at the person's home and
in their own environments from from day one. Or they
can they sometimes come to Melbourne and stay in one
of our residences here for, uh, a week or two.
(11:56):
And then we also do in those cases, we also
do a period of another, usually a week at home,
doing that last bit of the adaptation and settling back home.
S2 (12:07):
I imagine being a carer is a popular thing that
people volunteer for, right?
S4 (12:11):
It is, it is. We always need more. Uh, but
it is. We breed over 200 dogs every year, so
we need.
S2 (12:19):
Wow.
S4 (12:19):
A fairly high number of volunteers on a regular basis. Sometimes,
perhaps for different reasons, the pups need to move, you know.
So we need way more than just, I dunno, just
200 people is a lot, but we need hundreds and
hundreds of volunteers and we've been lucky. But we always yeah,
we always need more. It can be hard as well.
Of course people sign up understanding what they're signing up
(12:43):
for and they know the dog is. Ultimately, if the
dog is successful, they're going, you know, to do a
good job for someone, but it's still hard to raise
a pup and for for an ear and then have
to return them. And sometimes people are really, really enjoy
the raising of the of the young dog. You know
that they they don't actually don't want to to have
(13:04):
to worry about an old dog. So they just they,
they enjoy that those initial stages. And so they when
the dog turns about one and they hand them back
to us, they get a new puppy and they restart
the cycle. And it's it's great and it works for everybody.
It works really well.
S2 (13:19):
That's amazing. Yeah. Lacey's puppy care still keeps in contact
with us, right? Right. She used to send me videos
of Lacey as a pup. She was a bit of
a stirrer, right?
S4 (13:30):
Yeah. In the last few years, we've been trying hard
to make sure that we know that we. We keep
saying that it takes a village to raise one of
these dogs, and we know that it's important, as I said,
people signing up for a reason. But we know that
it's important for the people who are doing the for
the puppy raisers to actually have closer contact with this
(13:52):
with the end result. You know, when things go well,
the dog makes it as a seeing eye dog that
when cases like yourself that if people can be in
touch with the volunteer, we know that's really powerful so
that people really connect those those dots. But even when
that doesn't happen, you know, we have other ways to
keep people to to make people aware of what's happening.
Maybe it's not their dog. Maybe their pup didn't make
(14:14):
it as a senior dog. But the that people understand
what the, the, the goal is or the journey is.
So that's we know that's that's a really powerful motivator.
S1 (14:25):
This is studio one on Vision Australia Radio.
S5 (14:31):
If I say loud enough do we get to go home?
S6 (14:34):
Oi oi oi oi. I did what you asked. Where's
my treat?
S3 (14:38):
A couple walking and holding hands. I must split them up.
S7 (14:42):
I know where to get a treat by taking you
to the Bunnings sausage sizzle. When that's done, I'll take
you back to the pub, give and take.
S8 (14:51):
It's incredibly unfair that that pet dog is allowed to
charge the fence and bark its tiny mind out at
me as I walk by. While I have to act
like a professional.
S9 (15:02):
More food please.
S10 (15:03):
There's a dog. There's a dog I want to play.
S5 (15:05):
To the pet dog walkers who insist on those stupid
retractable leads. Please, please, please just don't.
S6 (15:13):
More food. Please. I'm so hungry.
S9 (15:17):
No, no, don't pull me away. I really wanted that
half eaten muesli bar on the floor. And all those
leaves blowing in the wind looked good too. Are they food?
S10 (15:28):
What do you mean? You want to go to the hairdresser?
I could have sworn you said the pet store.
S11 (15:34):
If I walk slowly enough and sigh loudly enough, will
we get to take a shortcut home?
S6 (15:40):
We've been together eight years. And you still don't know?
Left from right.
S5 (15:44):
Are people in this city walk way too slow?
S10 (15:47):
So many sniffs. So little time.
S11 (15:50):
Of course I'm not lost. I'm exploring.
S9 (15:53):
Everything is about me.
S10 (15:55):
If I look cute and give you the big puppy eyes.
Then will you give me food?
S11 (16:01):
Let me just stop by this tree. I need to
sniff around a bit. I'll only be ten minutes.
S6 (16:06):
Don't tell me I know, I know, I know I
can find it without you there. Told ya. Now where's
my treat?
S10 (16:13):
It's such hard.
S3 (16:13):
Work being adored by so many people I've never met.
S12 (16:17):
More food please.
S2 (16:23):
It's very interesting, isn't it? Sam, we asked a lot
of people what they think their dogs would say if
they could talk, and we were inundated with responses. So
once again, thanks to the members of the Guide Dog
Handlers Australia page, I have to say, if Lacey could talk,
I think it would be a combination of several of
those things probably. You know, she would scoff at the
(16:46):
slow walkers. She also doesn't like people walking 2 or
3 abreast and feels that she must split them up.
But she's also obsessed with food, so I feel like
her comment would be when do I get food? Why
are we walking so slow? And why do you people
have to walk three abreast?
S3 (17:05):
I'd also add a few choices. I'd also add a
few choice comments about steps because we have to go
up and down steps all. Each time there and she's
managed to nearly run you down. At one stage and
always steers automatically towards the lift as well.
S2 (17:18):
She has tripped me down a flight of stairs in
our younger and our younger days. Yeah, I think Lacey
has an aversion to stairs and hills too. I don't
I don't understand.
S3 (17:27):
All right, so let's hear from Anthony and Lisa.
S2 (17:32):
Happy international guide dog day.
S13 (17:34):
Thank you. You too. Thank you. So I wanted to ask,
how long have you both been guide dog handlers for?
S14 (17:41):
Well, it's, uh, been working dogs for about 40 years.
I'm on Guide dog number six, so it's been a. Well,
the majority of my life nowadays.
S13 (17:49):
And, Elisa, I.
S15 (17:51):
Got my first guide dog back in 2014, and I'm
on my second guide dog. It was a little gap
in between when I had my son where I did
get a dog. So it was over ten years now.
S2 (18:01):
So. Anthony, what made you want to become a guide
dog handler as opposed to using the cane?
S14 (18:07):
Very controversial subject when I lost my sight. Um, quite
often it's harder on your parents and family because I
lost my sight at the age of 17 in a
car accident. And family tend to be more effective than
I was at the time, and my parents more or
less pushed me into having a guide dog. I'd never
really thought about it. I was getting around quite well
(18:28):
with the cane, but like a lot of people, they
they think people can't aren't safe by themselves using a cane.
They think the dog is the answer to the solution.
So I was, um, more or less pushed or coerced
into getting a guide dog. And um, much to my amazement,
I found that guide dogs can't do quite what the
general public or what my parents thought they could do. So, um,
(18:51):
that's how I. I got my first guide dog. It
wasn't necessarily my idea. It was because people had negative
attitudes about blind people as individuals. The reason was I
was pushed or coerced into getting a guide dog.
S2 (19:04):
And what about you, Lisa?
S15 (19:05):
I had an opposite experience to Anthony, in the sense
that the family was a bit more resistant to me
getting a guide dog. After years of being using a cane.
But for me, because I actually have a high speed
of walk which averages around about six kilometers per hour,
the cane wasn't really doing the alert soon enough for me.
So the cane would hit an object and I'd hit
(19:26):
it very quickly afterwards. So not enough reaction time for me,
where obviously a guide dog can see the obstacle much
further out and just walk me around it. So I
found that was more advantageous for me. So, Anthony.
S2 (19:37):
Going back to what you said about you, like your
family's misconceptions, I guess, or their attitudes and of you
being safe with a guide dog. Do you feel like
the public received you better? Do you feel like people.
S15 (19:51):
Were.
S2 (19:52):
More willing to give you assistance or nicer to you?
S14 (19:55):
I think with the white cane people have more pity
for you for some reason or other. There's something about
the white cane the general public have a different attitude
towards with the guide dog having a guide dog. What
you find is people won't necessarily talk to you, but
they'll talk to the guide dog, you know. You know,
if you ask for directions from somewhere, I've had people
actually talk to the dog and give the dog the address,
(20:17):
as if the dog would understand where 44 Grenfell Street
would be, which is quite amusing. So completely two different
responses from being a cane user and a guide dog user. Also,
I think the guide dog is a good icebreaker. So
you tend to meet more people through the dog is
a good way of meeting people, especially if you do
a lot of travelling. So um, whereas the cane people,
(20:39):
they get a bit, I guess, either ignored or thought
upon less, I would say.
S2 (20:45):
Lisa, I know you've had the opposite.
S15 (20:47):
Sort of.
S2 (20:48):
Um, reaction where you've been out and people have approached
you because you've had the dog. Is that.
S15 (20:54):
Right? Yep. A lot of people actually do tend to
try and invade your privacy, I guess, like if I
was any other person on the bus sitting on the bus,
most people would ignore me. But because I have the dog,
everybody wants to talk to you. And sometimes, you know,
I'm happy to interact. But there are other times, like
anybody where I just want to sit on my own,
be within my own thoughts. And it's difficult sometimes when
(21:16):
people keep going to ask you about the dog.
S2 (21:19):
What do you think are the public's biggest misconception when
it comes to guard dogs? Like, what are what are
some of the biggest beliefs or stereotypes that the public
have that just aren't true?
S14 (21:29):
I think people think the dogs can do more than
they're capable of, that they think you just give their
dog the address and hang on. And when the dog
stops you, they're right and it's not quite how it works.
You have to direct the dog. Probably the other biggest myth,
I think. I think dogs can do traffic, tell you
when it's safe to cross the road, and they clearly can't.
And and the general public have no conception or the thought.
(21:53):
They'd never even think that it that actually the person
that's blind, it's particularly when it's safe to cross the road,
and that's usually at light crossings and things like that
a lot easier nowadays with those audio tactile crossings. And
so I would say the dogs doing traffic is probably
the biggest myth, followed by that the dog can do
anything you ask it to. Boy, um, giving it directions
(22:16):
that are define it, which is not true. I've even
had some people think the dogs get the, um, if
you want to get the shots, you can just tell
it and I'll grab the can of baked beans off
the shelf and get it for you, which is, of course,
not true. So lots of, um, unrealistic expectations I think
people have.
S15 (22:32):
I didn't know dogs could read.
S14 (22:33):
Neither did I. Yes.
S2 (22:35):
Lisa, you know, I've actually had this conversation too, because
I believe you've had issues with the NDIS because they'll
either let you have a guide dog or.
S15 (22:44):
A.
S2 (22:44):
Support worker. Talk us through that.
S15 (22:46):
So, um, a while ago, when I was fighting for
a plan that I needed for NDIS, when they'd given
me the funding to get the guide dog. They said
they were going to take away the community access Support one.
So the support our support worker to take me out
to do shopping and all that. And when I actually
questioned him like, why? And they're like, oh, well, you
(23:07):
got the guide dog. And I'm like, the guide dog
cannot help me. They're like, yeah, but they can walk
you around the shops. I said, yes, but it cannot
find the baked beans in the middle of all these cans.
It cannot find a shop that I don't know where
the shop is. And it was quite frustrating to have
to talk to an agency for people with disabilities about
something like this, because they had absolutely no idea how
(23:27):
the dog worked. I had to explain to them that
it's basically a replacement of a mobility aid. It is
not a replacement of a human. That's true.
S2 (23:35):
I mean.
S15 (23:35):
Lacey's got no clue about low.
S2 (23:37):
Carb.
S15 (23:38):
Products.
S2 (23:38):
Or, uh, bargain hunting, um.
S15 (23:40):
Or making sure you get the no sugar diet drink
or whatever it is.
S14 (23:44):
Yeah, it's just straight to the dog food.
S15 (23:45):
Yeah, but the only food they understand in the shops. Yeah, right.
So last question.
S2 (23:51):
Do you have any heartwarming or funny stories that you
can share with us about your experience with Dog guides.
S14 (23:57):
I got quite a few, but probably one. Um. I
was hitchhiking around Australia with my first guide dog and
was hitching late at night somewhere over the high plains there,
and my guide dog was a union orientated dog, so
that meant he knew guide dog work well and he
only did guide dog work. No protecting the owner if
there was danger and it was late at night, I
(24:18):
was hitching and I heard something creeping behind me. Like
after a while it was definitely stalking me and I
looked at my guide dog for support, hoping he'd turn
and start growling and, you know, doing that protective behaviour. Uh,
he curled up and went to sleep and I was
left to my own devices. And then when I felt
the breath of this thing touching my shoulder, I was
(24:39):
in sheer panic and went, turned and grabbed it. And
as I did, I heard a big.
S2 (24:43):
Oh my.
S14 (24:43):
Goodness. And it was a horse that had got my
scent and came up and, um, and my dog slept
through the whole interaction. So it was quite a comical thing.
And he did God's work. And that was it.
S15 (24:54):
What about you, Lisa? I don't know about any heart
warming stuff with him, but, um, there was an instance
that he did his job. Absolutely. So. Well, um, I
was actually at the heading to the hospital, and I
was walking around along the pedestrian area, and the pedestrian
area does not have any gutter or anything to differentiate
between the pedestrian and where the cars go through for
(25:17):
where they drop off and pick up. And as we're
walking along, where the tactile part is, which is obviously
where somebody's blind can tell the difference, a car had
must have been coming in fast or whatever, but came
straight through between two cars. Floyd had actually spotted it
and just pulled me back. Wow. Out of the way
of that car. And like, this was seconds of reaction
(25:40):
time he did that for. And the other special thing
I like to brag about with Floyd is that I've
actually taught him how to use talking buttons to ask
for what he needs. So I have a button at
the back door for him to press when he wants
to go toilet. So it goes busy, busy. I have
one on the fridge which says treat please and one
near his dog food where it's time to eat. He
(26:00):
reminds me and presses. Hungry? Yeah.
S2 (26:02):
Do you think that he goes to the hungry button
the same.
S15 (26:05):
Time every night or. Yeah, he has that clock working
so well he knows exactly when to remind me. Doesn't
mean I feed him right then and there, but he
knows to remind me. I think most.
S2 (26:14):
Dogs know.
S15 (26:15):
When their. When their bellies are empty. So if your
dogs could talk, what would they say?
S14 (26:21):
More food please.
S15 (26:23):
I don't know, judging by the look on my dog's
face half the time, I swear he rolls his eyes
a lot, so he's probably going stupid humans. Yeah.
S16 (26:31):
I like that.
S2 (26:34):
Isn't it interesting, Sam? I think if any dog spends
any length of time with a human, they're often baffled
by our behavior, just as we're baffled by some of theirs.
S3 (26:42):
Well, considering that, yes, they have to be taught to
communicate verbally, they most of their communication is actually, uh,
sign language. I mean, when a dog barks, it's just
saying hey or oi! Um. Anyway, let's go back to
our regularly scheduled interview and the question that we ask.
It's kind of the old John West question. Um, what
happens to the ones that get thrown back?
S2 (27:07):
What happens to the dogs if they don't make the
process of becoming a teen idol?
S4 (27:12):
Um, yeah. The majority don't make it. It's a really
high bar that we, we set for, for our dogs
in terms of physical health and in terms of temperament
and behavior. The very first thing that we do with
dogs that are not going to make it as training dogs,
training dogs for ourselves, is that we will assess them
for potentially other assistance animal roles. We don't have other
(27:35):
assistance dog programs ourselves, but we have partner agencies who do.
And so we will do an internal assessment if we
think those dogs fit the profile that our colleagues in,
in other external organizations are looking for. If they are,
then we'll be in touch with those agencies and say, hey,
we think we have a dog, you know, and then
(27:55):
follow through that process so that they can eventually go
through their own assessment. And we have then placed or
our colleagues have in other agencies, have placed a number
of dogs every year that don't make it as dogs,
but they're still doing a job for for someone else
in a different in a different walk of life. If
dogs are not suitable for another type of work, then
(28:18):
they will be. They will typically become a pet, either
with it's common that they will, uh, the family or
the puppy raiser will choose to adopt. And when they
don't choose to adopt, we have a an adoptions team
and they will go to what we call public adoption. Yeah.
And there is a yeah, it's an incredibly, uh, competitive
(28:42):
area of our business and people always being really interested
in adopting those dogs. The dog might be, like I said,
because of that high bar. The dog might actually be
a really healthy dog, you know, and that has gone
sometimes through has received quite a lot of training. But
we for one reason or another, he's not going to
cut it. Let's say it's too sociable and really enjoys
(29:05):
is always getting too distracted by other dogs or by
a number of stimulus that could be happening in the environment,
and that's going to stop them being a safe and
successful dog. But they would still potentially be a really
nice pet for someone. So it's yeah, it's really interesting.
S2 (29:21):
Well, I can understand why it would be popular because
they've already been through like some amount of training. So
you don't have to take them to puppy school or
all this sort of thing.
S4 (29:31):
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes they can, uh, even during that first year,
the dogs, we might see things that will make us
make the decision, you know, fairly early in that we
don't think we always, of course, put a what we
call it a training plan. And so we will take
steps to, to see if we can influence what we're not.
You know, what's not being so good that we've seen
(29:52):
about the dog. We will put things in place. We'll
give them a number of weeks to see if they
turn around and give every dog the best chance to
to eventually, hopefully become a seeing eye dog. But it
doesn't happen that way. So then we just want to
focus our resources on on the dogs that we think
will make it.
S2 (30:09):
So in terms of the costs involved of training a
dog and making sure all of its health is up
to scratch, how much does it cost to fund a
seeing eye dog, or to to train a seeing eye dog?
S4 (30:20):
For a number of years now, we've been using the
figure of $50,000. Um, we haven't changed that. It's probably,
you know, in the last few years in particular with, uh,
all sorts of increases, but we still say $50,000. So
in situations where government funding is available, that's the cost
we use. That's the figure we use and when and
(30:41):
for fundraising purposes, we also use that figure. But everything
is getting a little a little more expensive nowadays.
S2 (30:48):
Yeah I think everything's going up. Cost of living? Yeah.
So how long do the dogs usually work for? What
age do you retire them at?
S4 (30:56):
We don't have a set age. Some organizations do. That's.
It's not that unusual in in the dog guide world
for agencies have some sort of a hard cutoff. You
know when we're looking at our data and then also
consulting with International Guide Dog Federation, which has, I think
about 80 organizations from around the globe. The average working time, uh,
(31:23):
working tenure of a of a dog is approximately six
and a half years. And so.
S2 (31:30):
Really?
S4 (31:30):
Yeah. And so we thought it was a little bit higher.
But a number of years ago we went to look
at our data and, and that's, that's what it is.
And so but it's an average right. And so many
dogs go over that. Sure. For sure. And some dogs
don't don't quite make it to that for us because
and this also is something that changes from organization to organization.
We issue dogs when they are about one and a half.
(31:54):
That means that eight years of age is more or
less the the average age for us when dogs are retiring.
But many dogs work best eight years of age. But
it's not. So the dog turns eight. They are, uh,
within their the animal world. They are older dogs, you know,
geriatric dogs. And anything that people, the handlers get out of,
(32:17):
out of work with their dogs after eight is a bonus.
And it's, it's above average. But it's yeah, it does happen.
Of course.
S2 (32:24):
100%. Yeah. Lacey retired three months shy of her 11th birthday.
So I think we.
S15 (32:30):
Had a really.
S2 (32:30):
Good innings.
S4 (32:31):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Past ten. We we used to, we
used to think it was ten. But then we realized
that's as, as an average. It doesn't work out that
way at all. But but yeah many dogs go go
to ten and well almost 11 like I said.
S2 (32:45):
Yeah I think she just stopped wanting to work. Yeah.
But she still wanted all the other benefits of being
a seeing eye dog, like being able to go out. So.
S4 (32:53):
Right.
S2 (32:53):
So how do people get involved whether they want to
volunteer or donate or, uh, you know, just help out
in some way? Where can they go? What can they.
S4 (33:01):
Do? Yeah. Uh, I think our website is, is the,
the main way, uh, we have phone, uh, phone numbers
of course, as well, if the, uh, if people don't,
don't like the idea of, of the website, uh, you
can search for seeing eye dogs on Google. You can
Google that, uh, Vision Australia, seeing eye dogs. That's that's us. But, uh, any. Yeah.
(33:24):
Or in throughout all all the socials the usual. But
we yeah we always need support I mentioned about it
does take uh, it takes a village in terms of staff, volunteers, uh, sponsors,
of course. Uh, everyone who wants to support us, we're
always needing more. We we always want to get more
(33:45):
dogs out, more dogs and more quickly. And so we. Yeah,
we'd appreciate any type of support.
S2 (33:50):
Perfect. And we will have the link to the website.
The phone number, all of that on the podcast notes. Well,
I have one last question for you. And in my view,
it's the most important question. Which do you prefer, black
labs or gold ones?
S4 (34:04):
I oh yeah. I think the political answer is I
don't have a preference, but I can tell you that
our pet dog at home is a black lab.
S2 (34:15):
Good choice, my friend. Good choice. That's a wrap for
the week. You can contact Seeing Eye Dogs Australia on 1800Â 751Â 465.
Or you can go to Sydney, Australia to find out more.
S3 (34:35):
A big thank you to Lester, Anthony and Lisa and
an even bigger thank you to the Heavenly Host. Otherwise
known as the members of the Dog Guide Handlers Australia
Facebook page and the amazing volunteers and staff of Vision
Australia Radio Adelaide, who brought these comments to life.
S2 (34:52):
And of course a big thank you for listening. And
as usual, you can download this program along with some
extra content on Apple, Spotify, Google or your favorite podcast platform.
S3 (35:03):
Next week we catch up with Victoria Hunt and Francois
Jacobs from SBS as we talk about audio description.
S2 (35:09):
But between now and then, please do get in touch
with the show. Whether you have experience of any of
the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio One,
or if you think there's something we should be talking about,
you never know. Your story and insight may help someone
who is dealing with something similar.
S3 (35:24):
Our email address is studio one. Org. That's studio number
one at Vision Australia. Org or you can leave us
a comment on our various social media pages. Search for
VA Radio Network. We want to hear from you.
S2 (35:37):
This program was made possible by the Community Broadcasting Foundation.
To find out more, go to.
S3 (35:45):
Bye for now.
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