October 29, 2025 • 32 mins
Lizzie Eastham and Sam Rickard present Studio 1 - Vision Australia Radio’s weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view.
On this week’s show
“Tell me what you REALLY think!”
Lizzie and Sam are joined by Dr Chrissy Antonopoulos, the founder of Beyond Bias Consulting.
Dr Chrissy talks about how unconscious bias can affect large elements of our lives: whether it be in a social context; in the workplace; or even obtaining services through government agencies like the NDIS.
Studio 1 welcomes any input from our listeners. If you have any experience or thoughts about issues covered in this episode or believe there is something we should be talking about.
You may also be interested in joining our choir of angels and telling your story.
EMAIL: studio1@visionaustralia.org or leave comment on the station’s Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/VARadioNetwork
Thank you to Dr Chrissy Antonopoulos for some rather insightful, if somewhat unsettling, observations. Also to Peter Greco for introducing us.
Beyond Bias Consulting: https://www.beyondbias.com.au/
This program was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at https://cbf.org.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:14):
This is Studio One with Sam Rickard and Lizzie Eastham
on Vision Australia radio.
S2 (00:25):
Hi, I'm Lizzie. And I'm Sam and this is Studio One,
your weekly look at life from a blind and low
vision point of view here on Vision Australia Radio.
S3 (00:34):
This week, tell us what you really think.
S2 (00:37):
We catch up with doctor Chrissie Antonopoulos from Beyond Bias
Consulting about unconscious bias and how it affects attitudes towards
people like you and me.
S3 (00:47):
As we always say at this point, and trust me,
we always do, please do get in touch with the show.
Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered
on this week's episode of Studio One, or if you
think there is something we should be talking about. You
never know. Your story and insight may help somebody else
who is dealing with something similar.
S2 (01:04):
You can contact us via email at Studio One Vision Australia.
That's studio number one at Vision Australia Org or. Of course,
you can drop us a note on our Facebook page
by going to facebook.com Slash Radio Network. So can you
(01:25):
tell us a bit about Beyond Bias Consulting and what
inspired you to start it? Yeah, so I started Beyond Bias, uh,
last year it was.
S4 (01:35):
After I had finished my PhD. So I did my
PhD in psychology, and I researched implicit bias, personal values,
and employment of people with disability. So as you can imagine,
I had a lot of interesting things that came out
of that, but it led me to want to make
(01:55):
some more tangible change from that research. I'm also a psychologist,
so it all kind of ties in well, and I
decided that I would try and start a business and
try and change unconscious biases.
S3 (02:08):
So in a few simple words, can you describe what
the business does.
S4 (02:12):
Yes. So the main thing with the business is around
training and professional development workshops around unconscious bias. At the
moment we're targeting health professionals, people that work in employment
spaces and anybody that works in and around the NDIS.
And then there's some other things we do in terms
of research and things around psychological testing for leadership. So
(02:37):
what first drew.
S2 (02:37):
Your attention to the issue of unconscious bias, particularly in
and around disability?
S4 (02:44):
So I'm legally blind and I have stargardt's disease. So
I um, got my diagnosis around about I think I'm
about 15 years ago now. So I had most of
my life with sight, and I noticed that real difference
between what it was like being a non-disabled person and
then becoming a disabled person, and I had no idea
(03:06):
what I'd walked into and what I would be experiencing.
and the biggest issue I found was in employment and
the way that I was being treated, the assumptions that
were being made about me. I had a lot of
negative experiences when I was trying to change jobs, um,
because I'd finished uni when I'd got my diagnosis and
I was just thinking, what is going on here? From
(03:29):
being offered jobs, then disclosing my, um, vision loss to
then not having the job and to being fired when
I disclosed in my probation periods, and all of these
things were happening and I was like, there's something going
on here. And I started to get into psychology at
that point as well. And I thought, there's these biases
that are happening. And then I went down the rabbit
hole and I haven't come back out of it. So
(03:50):
that's that's how I got into unconscious bias.
S3 (03:54):
So before all this happened to you, what was your major?
What was your, um, raison d'etre, you might say?
S4 (04:00):
So before all of this, I still did health. I
studied applied science in health information management, and ideally my
goal was to get into medicine, but once I got
my diagnosis at the end, I was sort of told
I couldn't do it. Looking back, I think I could
have back then. So anyway, that ship sailed now. Um,
(04:20):
and I ended up going into psychology from there because
I wanted to have a more hands on role in
a health profession.
S3 (04:28):
Right. So, um, how let's talk a little bit about your, um, condition.
S4 (04:32):
Yeah. So I have Stargardt's disease, so it affects my, um, macula,
my central vision. I don't have a lot of central
vision left. I am the type of person that doesn't
go and get regular check ups. Don't take advice from me.
Just because the way that I have coped with my
vision loss as it degenerates is through, I guess avoiding
and just keeping on going. So, um, I was legally
(04:55):
blind within about three years of my diagnosis, and since
then I've just, um, adapted. And, you know, I use
larger font and I use a lot of screen reading now,
so I just kind of adapt as I go. And
I guess with, with my experience of star gas, I
get a lot of other symptoms that come with it.
So not just the vision loss, but migraines, the neck
strain from trying to see all the time. I get
(05:17):
a lot of, um, nausea and motion sickness. So there's
a lot of things that come around with the stargardt's,
not just the vision loss.
S3 (05:26):
So you've, um, done the full vision impairment journey because
a lot of that would sound very familiar to our listeners.
And indeed, it sounds extremely familiar to me.
S4 (05:34):
Yes. It's it's it's been a wild ride. But I
think when when you get diagnosed, a lot of the
focus is just on your visual acuity and what you
can see, and not on all the other things that
come around it in terms of the strain, the pain,
the motion, the mental health toll, of course. So it's
quite there's quite a lot to it.
S2 (05:55):
And not to mention the fatigue and the exhaustion that
comes with all of that.
S4 (05:58):
Yes, I how could I forget that bit? Um, that's
probably one of the hardest bits as well, is the fatigue.
And you can learn to manage that. I'm getting better
at managing my fatigue and eyestrain.
S3 (06:09):
So you mean you don't just sort of flop down
on the bed at 5:00 when you've finished work and
sleep for two hours like I used to when I
was a teenager?
S4 (06:15):
Oh, well, look, I did. I'm a bit older than
a teenager now. I'll just just point that bit out. But, um,
I used to do that a lot, but I've, I
think I've found more of a manageable approach to work
and functioning, and I use a lot more assistive tech.
And using assistive tech really reduces the strain. So that's
been helpful for me.
S3 (06:34):
Indeed.
S2 (06:35):
So going back to, you know, the, uh, the studies
on unconscious bias, before we get into all of that,
how would you define implicit or unconscious bias in simple
terms for those people who may not be familiar with it?
S4 (06:49):
So unconscious bias is the bias that we all have,
but we're not aware of it. So there's explicit bias.
And that's when we know that we might prefer different
people or we might prefer different things. But then our
unconscious bias, we're not even aware that it exists, but
(07:10):
it can affect the way we think, the way we feel,
the way we act, the way we treat other people.
So it's a really core factor in a lot of
the decisions that might be made. And, um, some of
the things that happen around, for example, workplace employment and
things in healthcare.
S3 (07:26):
We can sort of sum it up in some ways because, uh,
in the late 90s, early 2000, you'd have a lot
of people saying, I'm not racist, but and then they
say something really racist, and it didn't even dawn on
them that were saying they were saying something racist.
S4 (07:39):
Exactly. It's the same thing. It's that. But the but
we don't know that we have an unconscious bias. So
unless you do a little bit of digging or you do, um,
for example, we have a test called the Implicit Association Test,
which is a cognitive test that can uncover your unconscious biases.
You won't know that they're there, and we all have them.
(08:01):
It's not reasonable to think that we're all non-judgmental, totally non-judgmental,
and non-biased. And it's not to say that we all
need to be. It's to say that we need to
be able to uncover it, and we need to know
where our biases lie, particularly when we're making those sort
of high stakes decisions that can affect other people.
S2 (08:21):
So when people think about bias, they often think about
gender or race. But I guess disability bias can be
more invisible. What are some of the examples of subtle
or unconscious biases that people have towards people with disabilities?
S4 (08:35):
So it's it's a big one. It's really pervasive. And
you can see it everywhere. And once you start to
notice it, you'll notice it more and more. And you'll
you'll kind of wish that you didn't see it. But
it can start with simple things in the language that
we use. So the way that we might phrase a
question for example. So I always use this example when
(08:57):
we generally meet someone, we might ask someone, what do
you do for work? But when someone has a disability
and this has happened for me a lot when I
went from being non-disabled to disabled, instead of people asking me,
what do I do for work, I'd be asked, do
I work? And it's that change in the language that
people don't really notice that they've done when they're asking
(09:18):
the question, but that in that question, the underlying bias
there is that we are disabled and you probably can't work.
So it's do you work rather than what do you
do for work? And that happens a lot in the
way that questions are phrased or the way we share
about other people. For example, we might say something about
(09:39):
a person with a disability. We might say that, oh
my God, they're so amazing. They got up out of
bed and they went to work today. And you would
never say that about anybody else. But the bias there
is that you think that they can't do that. That's
why you're phrasing it in a way that is saying
that they're so amazing. So it's it's the most obvious
(10:00):
way and the most pervasive way can be in the
language that we use.
S3 (10:04):
So sometimes what sounds like a compliment is actually a putdown.
And you might say, and what makes it so diabolical
is people don't even know they're doing it.
S4 (10:12):
Well, that's the thing with unconscious bias, is that we
don't know that we're doing it. And as I said,
when you see it, you can't unsee it. And then
it makes for a lot of cringe moments when people
are trying to be friendly or they're trying to be
curious or what, whatever it might be. But the way
that they're phrasing things or saying things or asking things
is actually showing what they think about you, or the
(10:34):
underlying assumption about what it is to be disabled. And
that can be quite uncomfortable and confronting.
S2 (10:40):
Yeah, and I don't I don't think that people get
that they're necessarily have that bias either, because, I mean,
lately there's often been times when I've gone out with
my seeing-eye dog, Mackenzie and people are like, oh, you
got here by yourself. How amazing is that? And that
makes me angry. And they can't understand why I get angry.
S4 (10:57):
Exactly.
S2 (10:58):
And it's like, why are you doing. dude.
S4 (11:00):
Yeah, exactly. Their bias is that, well, because you can't see,
you shouldn't be able to go out by yourself. And
most people can't go out by themselves. And, you know,
you're incompetent is a big one that comes up, which
is what my research was looking at. So it's exactly
that's an a, a great example of how unconscious bias
(11:20):
is showing up in the way that people say things.
S3 (11:24):
So let's talk a little bit about a bit more
about the findings themselves there. So I mean you said
incompetent was one, one thing. Um, was there anything else
in particular that you sort of found that stood out
and that perhaps, um, we should know more about?
S4 (11:36):
Yeah. So the way that I measured unconscious bias in
the research that I did was I used what we
call a stereotype content model. So it's a psychological theory,
but what it does is it looks at two factors
that contribute to stereotypes. So a stereotype is characteristics that
we might assign to like a whole group of people.
(11:57):
So for example, people with disability, and often those characteristics
aren't actually representative of the group or they don't apply
to everybody. So we might say that, for example, all
disabled people have blonde hair. That might be a stereotype, right?
But what we looked at in the stereotype content model
is it looks at whether we think a group of
(12:17):
people are competent or incompetent. And then the other aspect
of it is whether we think people are warm or cold.
So that refers to things like friendliness, kindness. So it's
it's the kind of personal qualities. And in the research
we looked at the unconscious bias. So whether people unconsciously
(12:39):
they didn't know how how they viewed people as either incompetent,
competent or warm and cold. And what the research actually
found was that it was 80% of people unconsciously thought
that people with disability were incompetent, and then 75% of
people unconsciously thought that people with disability are cold. And
(13:03):
that bit was interesting. So I knew that people were
going to think we were incompetent because, you know, I
live it all the time. I think most of us
knew that the assumption is that we're incompetent because disability,
which we know isn't true, but that's the way we
get treated. Now, the other side of the warmth and
coldness I thought it would lean more towards. We'd be incompetent,
(13:23):
but warm, which is that kind of, um, we call
it a paternalistic stereotype. You know, when people want to
help us and it's the right thing to do, and
people get that sense of like, they've done a good
deed if they've helped a disabled person. But what was
interesting was we found the opposite, that people actually unconsciously
also thought we were cold people. So we're unfriendly, unapproachable,
(13:45):
and that together, being incompetent and cold actually is a
what we call a contempt and disgust stereotype. So coming
back to the theory again. So people unconsciously have contempt
and disgust towards people with disability. And that was confronting
(14:05):
when I found that. I kind of sat on that
for a minute and I got a little bit upset
and was like, wow, okay, that's kind of that's not
a nice, nice thing to feel is that people don't
even know that, that that's how they feel towards you.
And when you kind of unpack that in real life,
you kind of see how it actually plays out and
it makes sense.
S1 (14:25):
This is Studio One with Lizzy and Sam on Vision
Australia Radio.
S2 (14:35):
So how do these stereotypes about people with disabilities, for example,
assumptions about capability or productivity shape hiring decisions or workplace culture?
S4 (14:44):
Yeah. So when you think about it, if if you've
got somebody that's making a hiring decision, so you've got
a panel or a hiring manager or whoever it is,
and it's highly likely that they'll have their unconscious bias,
that people with the person with the disability is incompetent. 8,080%
of people we found had that bias. So it's highly
likely that they would have that bias, which means that
(15:07):
they won't even be aware, but they'll have that assumption
that the person with disability couldn't do the job. They're incompetent,
so they'll likely be overlooked for that role. And this
happens all the time. We know it from experiences that
people share, but we also know from the research that
if you do share that you have a disability, when
you're going through the hiring process, you'll get 50% less
(15:29):
interviews than someone that doesn't. So it's not new. We
we knew it was there, but we kind of hadn't linked,
you know what's going on. And it's likely these unconscious
biases are what's playing a role here because people don't
even know that they're doing it. They might not even
know why. They don't think that person is right for
the job. They might just say, oh, they're not right
(15:51):
for the job. And it's that unconscious bias that is
what's driving that.
S3 (15:55):
You actually had a have a good example of this yourself?
S4 (15:59):
Yes, sir. It was when I was looking for a
supervisor for my psychology internship. So when you do your
psychology training, part of it was doing an internship, and
you need to find some supervisors to supervise you and I.
That was probably one of the most shocking things when
I was approaching supervisors. And I was being very upfront
and saying that I had a vision impairment. I was
(16:19):
saying I was legally blind because obviously I wanted to
work with someone that was comfortable with that. Um, the
responses that I got from potential supervisors were just they
were just I didn't even know how to respond back
to them. They there was questions about whether I could
meet competencies to be a psychologist. There was questions around
whether being blind meant that you could develop rapport, which
(16:42):
I thought was crazy. Like, obviously, just because you can't
see doesn't mean you can't develop rapport with people. So
all of these things were kind of coming up when
I was trying to find a supervisor. and it was
those underlying biases that they just assumed that if you're
blind or disabled, you can't be good with people, or
you can't use a computer or you can't write a report. Like,
(17:05):
there was all of these biases that people had, but
nobody actually asked, well, how would you do this or
how would you do that? So it was those assumptions
that were driving that.
S2 (17:14):
That's crazy. And now that you've, you know, published research and,
you know, you're you're pretty well known in this space
and you started your own company, have any of those
people that previously held those biases come up to you
and say, you know, like I was wrong. Like, has
anyone been challenged by your success? Do you think.
S4 (17:33):
No one has openly said anything yet? Um, I think
a lot of the people that I work with that
I interact with now are very much aware of it.
And a lot of people have shared experiences as well.
So we can all kind of empathize with each other's
journeys and what we're going through. to. And there's also
a lot of people that understand it who are also
(17:55):
behind us, supporting us to change this and change unconscious bias.
But I think the hardest thing to do, which is
part of the reason why I started the business, was
reaching the people that think they don't have a bias.
And that's the hardest bit, because there's a lot of
people that are open to it and they either have
(18:15):
no or limited bias, but it's the people with the
strongest bias that we really want to reach. And often
they're the ones, like you said earlier. Oh, I don't
I don't have bias. So that's the challenge.
S2 (18:28):
Quite often you find a lot of it too in
the disability sector itself. Like we don't need this delegates
and plan reviewers and people, you know, they they have
a lot of biases that come through in the decisions
that they make.
S4 (18:41):
Absolutely. I think you can see that a lot in
the NDIS space. And some of the decisions and even
the way that the NDIS is communicated, I think that
was the biggest takeaway with this stereotype of contempt and disgust.
And I think you can see that in the way
that NDIS participants and the NDIS is portrayed, particularly within
(19:02):
the media and within government, around it being, you know,
there's all those people committing fraud and we need to
cut costs and it's going to be, you know, this
billion dollar, however many billions of dollars scheme. And all
of that feeds into that stereotype that people with disability,
that we feel contempt and disgust towards them, towards us.
(19:22):
So you can kind of see how it's playing out.
And when people aren't aware that they have these biases,
they're inadvertently sharing information and promoting it in a way
that is perpetuating those stereotypes.
S2 (19:35):
So why do you think then, that, um, bias towards
people with disabilities is often overlooked compared to other forms
of bias?
S4 (19:43):
I think because it's so much higher and so much
more pervasive. And I think there's a lot of emotions
that go into it. So if you look at the research,
when we measure implicit bias, you can have slight moderate
or strong implicit bias and then obviously neutral or no bias.
(20:05):
Now we've had 2 or 3 decades now of research
into racial or cultural bias. And we know how pervasive
racism can be, particularly in countries like Australia, like in
the US, like in the UK. And the unconscious racial
bias sits at the slight range. Now, when you look
at disability, unconscious bias with our sample in Australia and
(20:29):
also all over the world, the bias sits at the
moderate to strong range. So when you think about it
in that context, about how much of an effect a
slight bias can have, and then you think about how
much of then an effect this moderate to strong bias
is having. You can kind of see how big a
problem we have. and it goes back to segregation. It
(20:50):
goes back to institutionalization. It goes back to so much
that we need to break down before we can actually
start to reduce some of the biases, which I think
is where the challenge is.
S3 (21:00):
Well, so much of it is actually ignorance that because
if you don't know somebody with a disability, then there's
just the other person. The only thing you can probably
do is just imagine what if it happened to me,
for example.
S4 (21:12):
Yeah. And I think that's where the emotion comes into it.
It's that people are scared and they don't. They think, oh,
I couldn't handle that if that happened to me. And,
you know, I always say to everyone, you kind of
have to handle it and you just make do. And you,
you know, no one thinks they could handle something happening
to them. But at some point, humans can be really
resourceful and can manage through things. But I think a
(21:35):
big part of it is the way that we feel
about either becoming disabled or towards people with disability. Another
part of my research found that people felt very uncomfortable
around people with disability. They felt like it was off putting.
Having people with disability in the workplace, and a lot
of that, I think ties into, um, the unconscious bias,
which is the next part of the next research that
(21:56):
we're looking at doing to kind of link it all together. Um,
but it's definitely a big part of it.
S3 (22:02):
And then to compound it all, just when someone gets
used to someone with a disability, we have the absolute
gall to make jokes about it.
S4 (22:09):
Ah, yes. Who's who's heard so many blind jokes that
not even one is funny anymore.
S2 (22:15):
Me?
S3 (22:16):
Yeah, yeah, but I mean.
S2 (22:18):
Especially God dumb jokes as well. I get them all
the time.
S4 (22:21):
Yes.
S3 (22:22):
So. So yeah, we have the, the gall to one
make our own jokes and and find them funny, but also, um,
not laugh at these jokes that are made up by
people who obviously don't have a disability themselves. So, um, there's,
you know, clearly, um, all those things they thought about
us are absolutely true.
S4 (22:38):
Yes, yes. They're not really jokes, are they? They're the
truth in their eyes, in their unconscious minds.
S2 (22:45):
Well, it's funny you said about, um, you know, people
being uncomfortable with people with disability, um, as a result
of their unconscious bias. But I often find also it's
been my experience that it's the, the other extreme in
that people will see your blind automatically make assumptions and
think that it's okay to act inappropriately towards you. Like, yeah,
(23:06):
I don't know if it's been your experience having like
being that you've, um, acquired your vision impairment later in life,
but often people will, like, touch you without obtaining your
consent or talk to you, um, in a very patronizing way.
And I think that's a result of bias as well.
S4 (23:22):
Absolutely. The definitely the way that people talk to you
and that patronizing tone, all that talking to someone you're with,
that is the bias that they think that you're incompetent
or you don't understand or whatever reason. So there's definitely
that bias there. And I've I've never quite understood why
people feel the need to to touch. It's odd. Um,
(23:43):
particularly like I know that they'll try and touch my
guide dog and then, you know, they'll try and help you.
And I'm like, just don't touch me. It's really weird.
And I think it comes from that. Potentially like people
maybe this that they feel uncomfortable and they want to
help you if you're looking like you're struggling or something.
I don't know. I think sometimes I look like I'm
a bit, you know, lost trying to cross a road
(24:04):
or something. But there is that sense of like, I
need to help people and or people are when you
have a disability, you're kind of more or less fortunate
and more vulnerable. And I think that unconsciously plays on
people as well. And that's why they do some of
these things that it's like a bit weird, like just
treat us like everybody else.
S2 (24:23):
So how do we challenge it? What do we do? Like,
not just in the workplace, but how can we, as
people with disability challenge those biases or challenge people who
have those biases?
S4 (24:33):
I think it's starting with conversations, and it's probably the
easiest is amongst people that we feel comfortable with. And
we don't we don't really want to have a conversation
with a random in the supermarket who's asking an inappropriate question.
We could, but sometimes it's not always what we want
to be doing, but it's about asking questions about, well,
(24:53):
where do you think you know, you said this. Where
do you think that comes from? And what what assumption
did you make when you said that? And that can
really get people to start thinking about it. And I
think if there's one question that I always get people
to think about is, what assumptions did I make when
I said that or did that? So when I said that,
you know, you wouldn't be able to do that job,
(25:15):
for example, what assumption did I make? Oh, well, I
thought that because you couldn't see, you wouldn't be able
to use an Excel spreadsheet or something. And then that
starts to kind of unpack it. So it's about kind
of having those conversations when we feel comfortable to, because
obviously it's a lot of work to have these conversations
and to unpack biases and everyone's biases. A lot of
(25:36):
bias to change. So if we start making it more
normalized where we're talking about it. That's the first step.
And then the most effective step is to embed it
into more formal, uh, processes and situations, like in schools
and in universities and in workplaces. So then we can
kind of reach more people and take the pressure off
(25:56):
us as individuals to change it.
S3 (25:58):
This is an observation I've made in the workplace. And
that is, again, with the assumptions that people make. And
they think, I just assume because you couldn't do this,
because you couldn't see once they found out you can
do it, they all of a sudden you lump you
with a whole lot more work to do, because how
dare you, you know, didn't tell us that you could
do this thing that, um, uh, that, you know, we, uh,
just assumed you couldn't do. And inevitably, I found when
(26:21):
that's happened, I've ended up screwing things up and having
a small nervous breakdown. And all of a sudden, I'm
getting talked to by exactly the same people. Oh, Sam,
we wouldn't expect that kind of thing from you. But anyway,
that's just me. That's just my observation.
S4 (26:33):
Well, it is, it's like, oh, we were holding back
and now we're going to lay it all on you.
So it it's a it's a very interesting space when
people start to unpack it or start to learn things,
the way that they act and the different things that
they do.
S3 (26:46):
So just explain the way your business works then, because
I can see one small problem, and that is the
people that actually do need this service the most are
the people that are not going to come to you.
S4 (26:56):
Exactly. So the biggest challenge is to attract people who
really need to hear this, right? Um, and I guess
I have a few few ways to doing that. And
some of it is to go into businesses and, um,
schools and unions and organizations, because obviously, if you're being
brought in that way, not everybody, you know, it's not
(27:19):
trying to attract the individual person, but if it's part
of a, you know, a professional development within your workplace
and you have to go, then you have to go
and listen to it, right? So that's part of the
strategy to get people in. But it's also to do
it in a way where it's not overly confronting for
people because it can be really confronting if, you know,
(27:41):
particularly if you think that, you know, I'm a fair
person and I don't want to harm people, but then
when I start to learn that maybe I am. That
could be confronting, upsetting, disappointing. So it's about having a
conversations and having, um, the discussion and trainings in a
way where people feel comfortable to share. People feel safe.
(28:02):
So a big part of it is creating that environment
where people are open to learning more and sometimes just,
you know, you can get them in by the curiosity
of of saying that, you know, oh, I'm actually blind
and I've got a PhD or blah, blah, blah, whatever
I've done. And that curiosity can get people and they're like, well,
how does she actually do that? How blind is she really?
(28:23):
And then if you can kind of hook people in
and then, you know, they start to learn more and
then they start to understand. So a big part is
having those really meaningful interactions, which is what changes our
unconscious biases.
S3 (28:35):
I mean, if you if you confront somebody, they they'll
just automatically go into fight or flight mode. I've seen
that happened.
S4 (28:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's there's a lot of tack to
it and there's a lot of I guess that's where
the psychologist comes in. So you kind of take that,
you know, naturally that kind of trauma informed approach in
that way where people don't necessarily know exactly what you're
doing and they you kind of gently coming into something
because you don't want people to feel really confronted. And
(29:03):
then they have that negative experience and then they won't
engage again.
S3 (29:07):
So of course, we live in a disability community and
we're all highly enlightened. But I do believe that that
part of your surveys, uh, included people with a disability.
I mean, I'm sure we were all came out, um, with, uh,
you wouldn't call it a past, but we were all
fantastically enlightened and, uh, didn't have any problems with other
people with a disability.
S4 (29:27):
Well, not quite, not quite. So part of the part
of the sample in my research were people with a disability.
And we did do an analysis on people with disability
compared to people without a disability and their unconscious biases.
And the good news is that people with disability have
less unconscious bias towards disability. But the bad news is
(29:51):
we still have a slight bias overall on average. So
even when we are disabled, we can have unconscious bias
towards either other people with disability or towards ourselves. And
that kind of ties in with internalized ableism. There's also
probably differences between different types of disability. For its for instance,
(30:12):
we might be more comfortable with the disability that we experience,
and we might have unconscious bias towards a different type
of disability. For example, it might be, oh, they don't
have it as difficult as I do or something like that.
So it can play out in a lot of different, um,
complex ways. But we are not immune to it, even
if we have a disability ourselves.
S3 (30:34):
That is incredible. So to sum it up, we sometimes
are our own worst enemies.
S4 (30:39):
We can be.
S3 (30:40):
Indeed. Well, I suppose it remains just to give you
a chance to spruik your business. Tell us how we
can get in contact if someone wants to, uh, make
make use of your services.
S4 (30:48):
Yes. So my business is called Beyond Bias Consulting, and
you can email me at hello at Beyond Bias. Com.au
and the website's Beyond Bias.
S3 (30:58):
Com.au and those of course will be included in the
podcast notes. Again, thank you so much for for enlightening
us on on this, um, rather humid day here in Adelaide.
S4 (31:07):
Thank you.
S3 (31:09):
That's a wrap for this week. A big thank you
to Doctor Chrissy.
S2 (31:12):
And of course, a big thanks to you for listening,
including our listeners on the Reading Radio Network. You can
find the podcast of this program, plus some extra content
by going to Apple, Spotify, Google, or your favorite podcast platform.
S3 (31:27):
And that applies doubly so for this week's show. Trust me,
there's a lot in there. Next week, what does it
take to get out there on your own and become
a sole trader.
S2 (31:35):
Sean and Steven have done this and talk to us
about the highs and lows of going into business for yourself.
S3 (31:42):
But between now and then, please do get in touch
with the show where they have experience of any of
the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio One,
or if you think there's something we should be talking about.
You never know. Your story and insight may help somebody
else who is dealing with something similar.
S2 (31:56):
Once again, you can reach us via email at Studio
One Australia. Org. That's studio number one at Australia, or
you can find us on all of the main social
media platforms like Facebook and Instagram by searching for VA
Radio Network. We want to hear from you.
S3 (32:15):
Bye for now.
S1 (32:16):
Studio one was produced in the Adelaide studios of Vision
Australia Radio. This show was made possible with the help
of the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at.
This is Studio One with Sam Rickard and Lizzie Eastham
on Vision Australia radio.
S2 (00:25):
Hi, I'm Lizzie. And I'm Sam and this is Studio One,
your weekly look at life from a blind and low
vision point of view here on Vision Australia Radio.
S3 (00:34):
This week, tell us what you really think.
S2 (00:37):
We catch up with doctor Chrissie Antonopoulos from Beyond Bias
Consulting about unconscious bias and how it affects attitudes towards
people like you and me.
S3 (00:47):
As we always say at this point, and trust me,
we always do, please do get in touch with the show.
Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered
on this week's episode of Studio One, or if you
think there is something we should be talking about. You
never know. Your story and insight may help somebody else
who is dealing with something similar.
S2 (01:04):
You can contact us via email at Studio One Vision Australia.
That's studio number one at Vision Australia Org or. Of course,
you can drop us a note on our Facebook page
by going to facebook.com Slash Radio Network. So can you
(01:25):
tell us a bit about Beyond Bias Consulting and what
inspired you to start it? Yeah, so I started Beyond Bias, uh,
last year it was.
S4 (01:35):
After I had finished my PhD. So I did my
PhD in psychology, and I researched implicit bias, personal values,
and employment of people with disability. So as you can imagine,
I had a lot of interesting things that came out
of that, but it led me to want to make
(01:55):
some more tangible change from that research. I'm also a psychologist,
so it all kind of ties in well, and I
decided that I would try and start a business and
try and change unconscious biases.
S3 (02:08):
So in a few simple words, can you describe what
the business does.
S4 (02:12):
Yes. So the main thing with the business is around
training and professional development workshops around unconscious bias. At the
moment we're targeting health professionals, people that work in employment
spaces and anybody that works in and around the NDIS.
And then there's some other things we do in terms
of research and things around psychological testing for leadership. So
(02:37):
what first drew.
S2 (02:37):
Your attention to the issue of unconscious bias, particularly in
and around disability?
S4 (02:44):
So I'm legally blind and I have stargardt's disease. So
I um, got my diagnosis around about I think I'm
about 15 years ago now. So I had most of
my life with sight, and I noticed that real difference
between what it was like being a non-disabled person and
then becoming a disabled person, and I had no idea
(03:06):
what I'd walked into and what I would be experiencing.
and the biggest issue I found was in employment and
the way that I was being treated, the assumptions that
were being made about me. I had a lot of
negative experiences when I was trying to change jobs, um,
because I'd finished uni when I'd got my diagnosis and
I was just thinking, what is going on here? From
(03:29):
being offered jobs, then disclosing my, um, vision loss to
then not having the job and to being fired when
I disclosed in my probation periods, and all of these
things were happening and I was like, there's something going
on here. And I started to get into psychology at
that point as well. And I thought, there's these biases
that are happening. And then I went down the rabbit
hole and I haven't come back out of it. So
(03:50):
that's that's how I got into unconscious bias.
S3 (03:54):
So before all this happened to you, what was your major?
What was your, um, raison d'etre, you might say?
S4 (04:00):
So before all of this, I still did health. I
studied applied science in health information management, and ideally my
goal was to get into medicine, but once I got
my diagnosis at the end, I was sort of told
I couldn't do it. Looking back, I think I could
have back then. So anyway, that ship sailed now. Um,
(04:20):
and I ended up going into psychology from there because
I wanted to have a more hands on role in
a health profession.
S3 (04:28):
Right. So, um, how let's talk a little bit about your, um, condition.
S4 (04:32):
Yeah. So I have Stargardt's disease, so it affects my, um, macula,
my central vision. I don't have a lot of central
vision left. I am the type of person that doesn't
go and get regular check ups. Don't take advice from me.
Just because the way that I have coped with my
vision loss as it degenerates is through, I guess avoiding
and just keeping on going. So, um, I was legally
(04:55):
blind within about three years of my diagnosis, and since
then I've just, um, adapted. And, you know, I use
larger font and I use a lot of screen reading now,
so I just kind of adapt as I go. And
I guess with, with my experience of star gas, I
get a lot of other symptoms that come with it.
So not just the vision loss, but migraines, the neck
strain from trying to see all the time. I get
(05:17):
a lot of, um, nausea and motion sickness. So there's
a lot of things that come around with the stargardt's,
not just the vision loss.
S3 (05:26):
So you've, um, done the full vision impairment journey because
a lot of that would sound very familiar to our listeners.
And indeed, it sounds extremely familiar to me.
S4 (05:34):
Yes. It's it's it's been a wild ride. But I
think when when you get diagnosed, a lot of the
focus is just on your visual acuity and what you
can see, and not on all the other things that
come around it in terms of the strain, the pain,
the motion, the mental health toll, of course. So it's
quite there's quite a lot to it.
S2 (05:55):
And not to mention the fatigue and the exhaustion that
comes with all of that.
S4 (05:58):
Yes, I how could I forget that bit? Um, that's
probably one of the hardest bits as well, is the fatigue.
And you can learn to manage that. I'm getting better
at managing my fatigue and eyestrain.
S3 (06:09):
So you mean you don't just sort of flop down
on the bed at 5:00 when you've finished work and
sleep for two hours like I used to when I
was a teenager?
S4 (06:15):
Oh, well, look, I did. I'm a bit older than
a teenager now. I'll just just point that bit out. But, um,
I used to do that a lot, but I've, I
think I've found more of a manageable approach to work
and functioning, and I use a lot more assistive tech.
And using assistive tech really reduces the strain. So that's
been helpful for me.
S3 (06:34):
Indeed.
S2 (06:35):
So going back to, you know, the, uh, the studies
on unconscious bias, before we get into all of that,
how would you define implicit or unconscious bias in simple
terms for those people who may not be familiar with it?
S4 (06:49):
So unconscious bias is the bias that we all have,
but we're not aware of it. So there's explicit bias.
And that's when we know that we might prefer different
people or we might prefer different things. But then our
unconscious bias, we're not even aware that it exists, but
(07:10):
it can affect the way we think, the way we feel,
the way we act, the way we treat other people.
So it's a really core factor in a lot of
the decisions that might be made. And, um, some of
the things that happen around, for example, workplace employment and
things in healthcare.
S3 (07:26):
We can sort of sum it up in some ways because, uh,
in the late 90s, early 2000, you'd have a lot
of people saying, I'm not racist, but and then they
say something really racist, and it didn't even dawn on
them that were saying they were saying something racist.
S4 (07:39):
Exactly. It's the same thing. It's that. But the but
we don't know that we have an unconscious bias. So
unless you do a little bit of digging or you do, um,
for example, we have a test called the Implicit Association Test,
which is a cognitive test that can uncover your unconscious biases.
You won't know that they're there, and we all have them.
(08:01):
It's not reasonable to think that we're all non-judgmental, totally non-judgmental,
and non-biased. And it's not to say that we all
need to be. It's to say that we need to
be able to uncover it, and we need to know
where our biases lie, particularly when we're making those sort
of high stakes decisions that can affect other people.
S2 (08:21):
So when people think about bias, they often think about
gender or race. But I guess disability bias can be
more invisible. What are some of the examples of subtle
or unconscious biases that people have towards people with disabilities?
S4 (08:35):
So it's it's a big one. It's really pervasive. And
you can see it everywhere. And once you start to
notice it, you'll notice it more and more. And you'll
you'll kind of wish that you didn't see it. But
it can start with simple things in the language that
we use. So the way that we might phrase a
question for example. So I always use this example when
(08:57):
we generally meet someone, we might ask someone, what do
you do for work? But when someone has a disability
and this has happened for me a lot when I
went from being non-disabled to disabled, instead of people asking me,
what do I do for work, I'd be asked, do
I work? And it's that change in the language that
people don't really notice that they've done when they're asking
(09:18):
the question, but that in that question, the underlying bias
there is that we are disabled and you probably can't work.
So it's do you work rather than what do you
do for work? And that happens a lot in the
way that questions are phrased or the way we share
about other people. For example, we might say something about
(09:39):
a person with a disability. We might say that, oh
my God, they're so amazing. They got up out of
bed and they went to work today. And you would
never say that about anybody else. But the bias there
is that you think that they can't do that. That's
why you're phrasing it in a way that is saying
that they're so amazing. So it's it's the most obvious
(10:00):
way and the most pervasive way can be in the
language that we use.
S3 (10:04):
So sometimes what sounds like a compliment is actually a putdown.
And you might say, and what makes it so diabolical
is people don't even know they're doing it.
S4 (10:12):
Well, that's the thing with unconscious bias, is that we
don't know that we're doing it. And as I said,
when you see it, you can't unsee it. And then
it makes for a lot of cringe moments when people
are trying to be friendly or they're trying to be
curious or what, whatever it might be. But the way
that they're phrasing things or saying things or asking things
is actually showing what they think about you, or the
(10:34):
underlying assumption about what it is to be disabled. And
that can be quite uncomfortable and confronting.
S2 (10:40):
Yeah, and I don't I don't think that people get
that they're necessarily have that bias either, because, I mean,
lately there's often been times when I've gone out with
my seeing-eye dog, Mackenzie and people are like, oh, you
got here by yourself. How amazing is that? And that
makes me angry. And they can't understand why I get angry.
S4 (10:57):
Exactly.
S2 (10:58):
And it's like, why are you doing. dude.
S4 (11:00):
Yeah, exactly. Their bias is that, well, because you can't see,
you shouldn't be able to go out by yourself. And
most people can't go out by themselves. And, you know,
you're incompetent is a big one that comes up, which
is what my research was looking at. So it's exactly
that's an a, a great example of how unconscious bias
(11:20):
is showing up in the way that people say things.
S3 (11:24):
So let's talk a little bit about a bit more
about the findings themselves there. So I mean you said
incompetent was one, one thing. Um, was there anything else
in particular that you sort of found that stood out
and that perhaps, um, we should know more about?
S4 (11:36):
Yeah. So the way that I measured unconscious bias in
the research that I did was I used what we
call a stereotype content model. So it's a psychological theory,
but what it does is it looks at two factors
that contribute to stereotypes. So a stereotype is characteristics that
we might assign to like a whole group of people.
(11:57):
So for example, people with disability, and often those characteristics
aren't actually representative of the group or they don't apply
to everybody. So we might say that, for example, all
disabled people have blonde hair. That might be a stereotype, right?
But what we looked at in the stereotype content model
is it looks at whether we think a group of
(12:17):
people are competent or incompetent. And then the other aspect
of it is whether we think people are warm or cold.
So that refers to things like friendliness, kindness. So it's
it's the kind of personal qualities. And in the research
we looked at the unconscious bias. So whether people unconsciously
(12:39):
they didn't know how how they viewed people as either incompetent,
competent or warm and cold. And what the research actually
found was that it was 80% of people unconsciously thought
that people with disability were incompetent, and then 75% of
people unconsciously thought that people with disability are cold. And
(13:03):
that bit was interesting. So I knew that people were
going to think we were incompetent because, you know, I
live it all the time. I think most of us
knew that the assumption is that we're incompetent because disability,
which we know isn't true, but that's the way we
get treated. Now, the other side of the warmth and
coldness I thought it would lean more towards. We'd be incompetent,
(13:23):
but warm, which is that kind of, um, we call
it a paternalistic stereotype. You know, when people want to
help us and it's the right thing to do, and
people get that sense of like, they've done a good
deed if they've helped a disabled person. But what was
interesting was we found the opposite, that people actually unconsciously
also thought we were cold people. So we're unfriendly, unapproachable,
(13:45):
and that together, being incompetent and cold actually is a
what we call a contempt and disgust stereotype. So coming
back to the theory again. So people unconsciously have contempt
and disgust towards people with disability. And that was confronting
(14:05):
when I found that. I kind of sat on that
for a minute and I got a little bit upset
and was like, wow, okay, that's kind of that's not
a nice, nice thing to feel is that people don't
even know that, that that's how they feel towards you.
And when you kind of unpack that in real life,
you kind of see how it actually plays out and
it makes sense.
S1 (14:25):
This is Studio One with Lizzy and Sam on Vision
Australia Radio.
S2 (14:35):
So how do these stereotypes about people with disabilities, for example,
assumptions about capability or productivity shape hiring decisions or workplace culture?
S4 (14:44):
Yeah. So when you think about it, if if you've
got somebody that's making a hiring decision, so you've got
a panel or a hiring manager or whoever it is,
and it's highly likely that they'll have their unconscious bias,
that people with the person with the disability is incompetent. 8,080%
of people we found had that bias. So it's highly
likely that they would have that bias, which means that
(15:07):
they won't even be aware, but they'll have that assumption
that the person with disability couldn't do the job. They're incompetent,
so they'll likely be overlooked for that role. And this
happens all the time. We know it from experiences that
people share, but we also know from the research that
if you do share that you have a disability, when
you're going through the hiring process, you'll get 50% less
(15:29):
interviews than someone that doesn't. So it's not new. We
we knew it was there, but we kind of hadn't linked,
you know what's going on. And it's likely these unconscious
biases are what's playing a role here because people don't
even know that they're doing it. They might not even
know why. They don't think that person is right for
the job. They might just say, oh, they're not right
(15:51):
for the job. And it's that unconscious bias that is
what's driving that.
S3 (15:55):
You actually had a have a good example of this yourself?
S4 (15:59):
Yes, sir. It was when I was looking for a
supervisor for my psychology internship. So when you do your
psychology training, part of it was doing an internship, and
you need to find some supervisors to supervise you and I.
That was probably one of the most shocking things when
I was approaching supervisors. And I was being very upfront
and saying that I had a vision impairment. I was
(16:19):
saying I was legally blind because obviously I wanted to
work with someone that was comfortable with that. Um, the
responses that I got from potential supervisors were just they
were just I didn't even know how to respond back
to them. They there was questions about whether I could
meet competencies to be a psychologist. There was questions around
whether being blind meant that you could develop rapport, which
(16:42):
I thought was crazy. Like, obviously, just because you can't
see doesn't mean you can't develop rapport with people. So
all of these things were kind of coming up when
I was trying to find a supervisor. and it was
those underlying biases that they just assumed that if you're
blind or disabled, you can't be good with people, or
you can't use a computer or you can't write a report. Like,
(17:05):
there was all of these biases that people had, but
nobody actually asked, well, how would you do this or
how would you do that? So it was those assumptions
that were driving that.
S2 (17:14):
That's crazy. And now that you've, you know, published research and,
you know, you're you're pretty well known in this space
and you started your own company, have any of those
people that previously held those biases come up to you
and say, you know, like I was wrong. Like, has
anyone been challenged by your success? Do you think.
S4 (17:33):
No one has openly said anything yet? Um, I think
a lot of the people that I work with that
I interact with now are very much aware of it.
And a lot of people have shared experiences as well.
So we can all kind of empathize with each other's
journeys and what we're going through. to. And there's also
a lot of people that understand it who are also
(17:55):
behind us, supporting us to change this and change unconscious bias.
But I think the hardest thing to do, which is
part of the reason why I started the business, was
reaching the people that think they don't have a bias.
And that's the hardest bit, because there's a lot of
people that are open to it and they either have
(18:15):
no or limited bias, but it's the people with the
strongest bias that we really want to reach. And often
they're the ones, like you said earlier. Oh, I don't
I don't have bias. So that's the challenge.
S2 (18:28):
Quite often you find a lot of it too in
the disability sector itself. Like we don't need this delegates
and plan reviewers and people, you know, they they have
a lot of biases that come through in the decisions
that they make.
S4 (18:41):
Absolutely. I think you can see that a lot in
the NDIS space. And some of the decisions and even
the way that the NDIS is communicated, I think that
was the biggest takeaway with this stereotype of contempt and disgust.
And I think you can see that in the way
that NDIS participants and the NDIS is portrayed, particularly within
(19:02):
the media and within government, around it being, you know,
there's all those people committing fraud and we need to
cut costs and it's going to be, you know, this
billion dollar, however many billions of dollars scheme. And all
of that feeds into that stereotype that people with disability,
that we feel contempt and disgust towards them, towards us.
(19:22):
So you can kind of see how it's playing out.
And when people aren't aware that they have these biases,
they're inadvertently sharing information and promoting it in a way
that is perpetuating those stereotypes.
S2 (19:35):
So why do you think then, that, um, bias towards
people with disabilities is often overlooked compared to other forms
of bias?
S4 (19:43):
I think because it's so much higher and so much
more pervasive. And I think there's a lot of emotions
that go into it. So if you look at the research,
when we measure implicit bias, you can have slight moderate
or strong implicit bias and then obviously neutral or no bias.
(20:05):
Now we've had 2 or 3 decades now of research
into racial or cultural bias. And we know how pervasive
racism can be, particularly in countries like Australia, like in
the US, like in the UK. And the unconscious racial
bias sits at the slight range. Now, when you look
at disability, unconscious bias with our sample in Australia and
(20:29):
also all over the world, the bias sits at the
moderate to strong range. So when you think about it
in that context, about how much of an effect a
slight bias can have, and then you think about how
much of then an effect this moderate to strong bias
is having. You can kind of see how big a
problem we have. and it goes back to segregation. It
(20:50):
goes back to institutionalization. It goes back to so much
that we need to break down before we can actually
start to reduce some of the biases, which I think
is where the challenge is.
S3 (21:00):
Well, so much of it is actually ignorance that because
if you don't know somebody with a disability, then there's
just the other person. The only thing you can probably
do is just imagine what if it happened to me,
for example.
S4 (21:12):
Yeah. And I think that's where the emotion comes into it.
It's that people are scared and they don't. They think, oh,
I couldn't handle that if that happened to me. And,
you know, I always say to everyone, you kind of
have to handle it and you just make do. And you,
you know, no one thinks they could handle something happening
to them. But at some point, humans can be really
resourceful and can manage through things. But I think a
(21:35):
big part of it is the way that we feel
about either becoming disabled or towards people with disability. Another
part of my research found that people felt very uncomfortable
around people with disability. They felt like it was off putting.
Having people with disability in the workplace, and a lot
of that, I think ties into, um, the unconscious bias,
which is the next part of the next research that
(21:56):
we're looking at doing to kind of link it all together. Um,
but it's definitely a big part of it.
S3 (22:02):
And then to compound it all, just when someone gets
used to someone with a disability, we have the absolute
gall to make jokes about it.
S4 (22:09):
Ah, yes. Who's who's heard so many blind jokes that
not even one is funny anymore.
S2 (22:15):
Me?
S3 (22:16):
Yeah, yeah, but I mean.
S2 (22:18):
Especially God dumb jokes as well. I get them all
the time.
S4 (22:21):
Yes.
S3 (22:22):
So. So yeah, we have the, the gall to one
make our own jokes and and find them funny, but also, um,
not laugh at these jokes that are made up by
people who obviously don't have a disability themselves. So, um, there's,
you know, clearly, um, all those things they thought about
us are absolutely true.
S4 (22:38):
Yes, yes. They're not really jokes, are they? They're the
truth in their eyes, in their unconscious minds.
S2 (22:45):
Well, it's funny you said about, um, you know, people
being uncomfortable with people with disability, um, as a result
of their unconscious bias. But I often find also it's
been my experience that it's the, the other extreme in
that people will see your blind automatically make assumptions and
think that it's okay to act inappropriately towards you. Like, yeah,
(23:06):
I don't know if it's been your experience having like
being that you've, um, acquired your vision impairment later in life,
but often people will, like, touch you without obtaining your
consent or talk to you, um, in a very patronizing way.
And I think that's a result of bias as well.
S4 (23:22):
Absolutely. The definitely the way that people talk to you
and that patronizing tone, all that talking to someone you're with,
that is the bias that they think that you're incompetent
or you don't understand or whatever reason. So there's definitely
that bias there. And I've I've never quite understood why
people feel the need to to touch. It's odd. Um,
(23:43):
particularly like I know that they'll try and touch my
guide dog and then, you know, they'll try and help you.
And I'm like, just don't touch me. It's really weird.
And I think it comes from that. Potentially like people
maybe this that they feel uncomfortable and they want to
help you if you're looking like you're struggling or something.
I don't know. I think sometimes I look like I'm
a bit, you know, lost trying to cross a road
(24:04):
or something. But there is that sense of like, I
need to help people and or people are when you
have a disability, you're kind of more or less fortunate
and more vulnerable. And I think that unconsciously plays on
people as well. And that's why they do some of
these things that it's like a bit weird, like just
treat us like everybody else.
S2 (24:23):
So how do we challenge it? What do we do? Like,
not just in the workplace, but how can we, as
people with disability challenge those biases or challenge people who
have those biases?
S4 (24:33):
I think it's starting with conversations, and it's probably the
easiest is amongst people that we feel comfortable with. And
we don't we don't really want to have a conversation
with a random in the supermarket who's asking an inappropriate question.
We could, but sometimes it's not always what we want
to be doing, but it's about asking questions about, well,
(24:53):
where do you think you know, you said this. Where
do you think that comes from? And what what assumption
did you make when you said that? And that can
really get people to start thinking about it. And I
think if there's one question that I always get people
to think about is, what assumptions did I make when
I said that or did that? So when I said that,
you know, you wouldn't be able to do that job,
(25:15):
for example, what assumption did I make? Oh, well, I
thought that because you couldn't see, you wouldn't be able
to use an Excel spreadsheet or something. And then that
starts to kind of unpack it. So it's about kind
of having those conversations when we feel comfortable to, because
obviously it's a lot of work to have these conversations
and to unpack biases and everyone's biases. A lot of
(25:36):
bias to change. So if we start making it more
normalized where we're talking about it. That's the first step.
And then the most effective step is to embed it
into more formal, uh, processes and situations, like in schools
and in universities and in workplaces. So then we can
kind of reach more people and take the pressure off
(25:56):
us as individuals to change it.
S3 (25:58):
This is an observation I've made in the workplace. And
that is, again, with the assumptions that people make. And
they think, I just assume because you couldn't do this,
because you couldn't see once they found out you can
do it, they all of a sudden you lump you
with a whole lot more work to do, because how
dare you, you know, didn't tell us that you could
do this thing that, um, uh, that, you know, we, uh,
just assumed you couldn't do. And inevitably, I found when
(26:21):
that's happened, I've ended up screwing things up and having
a small nervous breakdown. And all of a sudden, I'm
getting talked to by exactly the same people. Oh, Sam,
we wouldn't expect that kind of thing from you. But anyway,
that's just me. That's just my observation.
S4 (26:33):
Well, it is, it's like, oh, we were holding back
and now we're going to lay it all on you.
So it it's a it's a very interesting space when
people start to unpack it or start to learn things,
the way that they act and the different things that
they do.
S3 (26:46):
So just explain the way your business works then, because
I can see one small problem, and that is the
people that actually do need this service the most are
the people that are not going to come to you.
S4 (26:56):
Exactly. So the biggest challenge is to attract people who
really need to hear this, right? Um, and I guess
I have a few few ways to doing that. And
some of it is to go into businesses and, um,
schools and unions and organizations, because obviously, if you're being
brought in that way, not everybody, you know, it's not
(27:19):
trying to attract the individual person, but if it's part
of a, you know, a professional development within your workplace
and you have to go, then you have to go
and listen to it, right? So that's part of the
strategy to get people in. But it's also to do
it in a way where it's not overly confronting for
people because it can be really confronting if, you know,
(27:41):
particularly if you think that, you know, I'm a fair
person and I don't want to harm people, but then
when I start to learn that maybe I am. That
could be confronting, upsetting, disappointing. So it's about having a
conversations and having, um, the discussion and trainings in a
way where people feel comfortable to share. People feel safe.
(28:02):
So a big part of it is creating that environment
where people are open to learning more and sometimes just,
you know, you can get them in by the curiosity
of of saying that, you know, oh, I'm actually blind
and I've got a PhD or blah, blah, blah, whatever
I've done. And that curiosity can get people and they're like, well,
how does she actually do that? How blind is she really?
(28:23):
And then if you can kind of hook people in
and then, you know, they start to learn more and
then they start to understand. So a big part is
having those really meaningful interactions, which is what changes our
unconscious biases.
S3 (28:35):
I mean, if you if you confront somebody, they they'll
just automatically go into fight or flight mode. I've seen
that happened.
S4 (28:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's there's a lot of tack to
it and there's a lot of I guess that's where
the psychologist comes in. So you kind of take that,
you know, naturally that kind of trauma informed approach in
that way where people don't necessarily know exactly what you're
doing and they you kind of gently coming into something
because you don't want people to feel really confronted. And
(29:03):
then they have that negative experience and then they won't
engage again.
S3 (29:07):
So of course, we live in a disability community and
we're all highly enlightened. But I do believe that that
part of your surveys, uh, included people with a disability.
I mean, I'm sure we were all came out, um, with, uh,
you wouldn't call it a past, but we were all
fantastically enlightened and, uh, didn't have any problems with other
people with a disability.
S4 (29:27):
Well, not quite, not quite. So part of the part
of the sample in my research were people with a disability.
And we did do an analysis on people with disability
compared to people without a disability and their unconscious biases.
And the good news is that people with disability have
less unconscious bias towards disability. But the bad news is
(29:51):
we still have a slight bias overall on average. So
even when we are disabled, we can have unconscious bias
towards either other people with disability or towards ourselves. And
that kind of ties in with internalized ableism. There's also
probably differences between different types of disability. For its for instance,
(30:12):
we might be more comfortable with the disability that we experience,
and we might have unconscious bias towards a different type
of disability. For example, it might be, oh, they don't
have it as difficult as I do or something like that.
So it can play out in a lot of different, um,
complex ways. But we are not immune to it, even
if we have a disability ourselves.
S3 (30:34):
That is incredible. So to sum it up, we sometimes
are our own worst enemies.
S4 (30:39):
We can be.
S3 (30:40):
Indeed. Well, I suppose it remains just to give you
a chance to spruik your business. Tell us how we
can get in contact if someone wants to, uh, make
make use of your services.
S4 (30:48):
Yes. So my business is called Beyond Bias Consulting, and
you can email me at hello at Beyond Bias. Com.au
and the website's Beyond Bias.
S3 (30:58):
Com.au and those of course will be included in the
podcast notes. Again, thank you so much for for enlightening
us on on this, um, rather humid day here in Adelaide.
S4 (31:07):
Thank you.
S3 (31:09):
That's a wrap for this week. A big thank you
to Doctor Chrissy.
S2 (31:12):
And of course, a big thanks to you for listening,
including our listeners on the Reading Radio Network. You can
find the podcast of this program, plus some extra content
by going to Apple, Spotify, Google, or your favorite podcast platform.
S3 (31:27):
And that applies doubly so for this week's show. Trust me,
there's a lot in there. Next week, what does it
take to get out there on your own and become
a sole trader.
S2 (31:35):
Sean and Steven have done this and talk to us
about the highs and lows of going into business for yourself.
S3 (31:42):
But between now and then, please do get in touch
with the show where they have experience of any of
the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio One,
or if you think there's something we should be talking about.
You never know. Your story and insight may help somebody
else who is dealing with something similar.
S2 (31:56):
Once again, you can reach us via email at Studio
One Australia. Org. That's studio number one at Australia, or
you can find us on all of the main social
media platforms like Facebook and Instagram by searching for VA
Radio Network. We want to hear from you.
S3 (32:15):
Bye for now.
S1 (32:16):
Studio one was produced in the Adelaide studios of Vision
Australia Radio. This show was made possible with the help
of the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at.
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