July 16, 2025 • 35 mins
Lizzie Eastham and Sam Rickard present Studio 1 - Vision Australia Radio’s weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view.
On this week’s show
"When I Grow Up, with Belinda Wilson"
What are you going to do when you grow up?
Do the expectations, positive or negative, of family; friends and our support network in general affect what we do with our lives?
Lizzie and Sam are joined by Vision Australia’s own Belinda Wilson to talk about learned helplessness and how the expectations, or lack of expectations from significant people in the lives of people with a disability can impact an entire lifestyle.
Studio 1 welcomes any input from our listeners. If you have any experience or thoughts about issues covered in this episode or believe there is something we should be talking about.
EMAIL: studio1@visionaustralia.org or leave comment on the station’s Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/VARadioNetwork
This program was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at https://cbf.org.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:15):
This is studio one on Vision Australia Radio.
S2 (00:26):
Hello, I'm Sam.
S3 (00:27):
And I'm Lizzie.
S2 (00:28):
And this is Studio One, your weekly look at life
from a low vision and blind point of view. Here
on Vision Australia Radio.
S3 (00:34):
This week, what do you want to be when you
grow up?
S2 (00:36):
Do the expectations, both positive or negative, of family, friends
and our support network in general affect what we do
with our lives?
S3 (00:43):
Vision Australia's own Belinda Wilson talks about learned helplessness and
how it can simply make us accept our place in life.
S2 (00:51):
As we always say at this point, please do get
in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of
any of the issues covered on this week's episode of
Studio One, or if you think there's something we should
be talking about. You never know. Your story and insight
may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar.
S3 (01:06):
You can contact us via email at studio one at Australia. Org.
That's studio number one at update in Australia. Or of course,
you can drop us a note on our Facebook page
by going to facebook.com slash.
S2 (01:22):
Belinda Wilson, how are you?
S4 (01:23):
I am doing fantastic. How are you doing?
S2 (01:26):
I'm pretty good. And as you can tell, Matthew's voice
has changed a little bit. He's no longer speaking with
an English accent. It's been that long since you've been
on that? Uh, yes. We've, uh, changed from Matthew to Lizzie.
I think it might be an improvement. Who knows? But anyway, um,
this the subject that we're dealing with is people's expectations
(01:46):
of people like us, as it were. So, um, Lizzie,
I mean, you've said you've had mostly a positive experience with, uh,
your family's expectations.
S3 (01:57):
Yeah. So just I wanted to start off by saying
what brought this about is in my conversations with the community,
a lot of people expressed that the attitudes of influential
figures in their lives really went a long way into
shaping the way that they saw themselves growing up. So,
you know, people who, like myself, had positive experiences where
(02:21):
disability was never seen as a barrier or a limitation,
grew up with high expectations for themselves. And, you know,
I've grown up being a confident person, and I've always
pursued independence and, um, you know, always taken pride in
myself and things like that. But there are definitely people whose,
you know, parents, teachers and mentors have not had the
(02:42):
greatest impact on their self-esteem and self-image. So that's what
we're discussing today. And yes, I have had a positive
experience with with my parents and teachers and mentors. I
was told that I could do anything I set my
mind to except for being a, um, race car driver.
Which yeah, sadly didn't pan out.
S2 (03:00):
I pretty much had a similar experience. I mean, Belinda
disability found you as opposed to you finding it, though,
didn't it?
S3 (03:05):
Uh, in a way, yes.
S4 (03:07):
There is another factor about me that is not a disability. Um,
but bathroom. This is how you think about it. But
I am type one diabetic. So from age seven I
was insulin dependent in the 80s, which basically meant they
just gave you some medicine and and hoped that you
lived and didn't really. There wasn't that much science behind it.
(03:28):
It was more of a guesswork game. Nowadays we have, uh,
blood glucose monitors and insulin pumps and these fantastic scientific things.
But back then it was very much seen as not
from my perspective. But when I got older, I very
much seen as well. You're not going to be able
to do this. You're not going to be able to
do that. I was never told that. I went on
school camp with everyone else and just gave myself injections
(03:51):
of the food that I was going there brought glucose
in case I went low. I did hiking, I was yeah,
I was out in the camp. I was there was
nothing that they ever said, you cannot do. My parents,
my teachers, I think I just told them I was
going to do it. And yeah, everyone I've been with
my entire life in that sense has never put any
limitations on me When the vision impairment found me, I
(04:13):
had a similar attitude. Maybe because of the way I
grew up that, um, why would I not be able
to do anything? And, um, people, you know, sometimes say
when they disclose to their employers, they get nervous. I
just told them. I just told my employers. I didn't
see any reason why I shouldn't tell my employers, because
I could still do my job. And, uh, that was
(04:34):
that was something. Now, looking back on it that I went, yeah,
that was probably because of the way I was raised,
which is as long as you can prove you can
do something, you can do it.
S2 (04:42):
I've got a funny story to tell that's sort of
related to what you just said, because, uh, when the, uh, employment, uh,
system went from a government run system with the SES to, um,
private as it is nowadays. Yes, I'm that old, I've
got to admit. Um, I applied to be part of it.
And one of the questions was, do you have a
(05:04):
disability that would affect your ability to do your job?
And I actually went, no.
S3 (05:10):
Um.
S2 (05:10):
And ended up missing out on, um, disability support because
of it. Because my disability may affect a lot of things,
but it did not affect my ability to do what
I was then doing for work. So yeah, yeah.
S4 (05:22):
It's a bit of a double edged sword because, you know,
it's the same thing with, um, disclosure, like, you know,
will this affect the inherent abilities, ability to do your job?
And the answer, you know, maybe no. And then sometimes
it's like, unless, unless that might be your benefit because
sometimes there's there's places that are looking for lived experience
or for, you know, experience in those type of areas.
S3 (05:45):
So speaking of employment and all things work, how did
you become involved with children and young people at Vision Australia?
S4 (05:52):
Yeah, that was an accident. So, um, it was very strange, um,
how how things came about. And I have moved about
a fair bit in a few different years. And I
started off, I think last time you guys spoke to me,
I was in employment. Was that correct?
S2 (06:08):
I think you'd only just gone over to sleep.
S4 (06:11):
Okay, so let's go.
S2 (06:12):
Over to.
S4 (06:13):
The left. Over to the left. So I was I
came to employment Services and I did I did have some, um,
experience through a grant that was given through the Empowering
Youth Initiatives. So it was a two year grant called
Building Stronger Futures. And that was when I started working
with 14 to 24 year olds as a part of
this grant. And we kind of had a pre employment
program and then a post part when we were we
(06:36):
were working with, um, with the children. And I didn't
really I saw it differently than working with the adult population,
but it was more of the content and the structure
more than, than anything else. And then I moved over
to leap, and I felt like there was just a
big disconnect between and this is the I didn't create leap.
(06:58):
I've got to give a lot of credit to the
people who created leap. There was this big disconnect when
people came into employment services of of what they they
thought about themselves or what they could do or what they,
they had knowledge of. And I feel that leap kind
of helps prepare people at that younger age with organizational skills,
with time management skills, with adaptive technology skills, with knowing
(07:21):
about different types of jobs and speaking to different people.
And I did feel there was a big lack in
that type of awareness and preparation when people went into employment.
And it was it was very, very difficult in that
sense of having that gap. Now there's this, you know,
bridge between the two, which I think is fantastic and that,
(07:42):
I mean, as much as I love leap and I
want everyone to go into leap, that's not just leap now,
that's as due to the creation of the Life ready, um, program.
And I don't know if you guys are familiar with
the Life Ready program.
S3 (07:54):
Know to tell us all about.
S2 (07:56):
It. Definitely tell us about it.
S4 (07:57):
So some fantastic people at Vision Australia and some fantastic
people on the board of Vision Australia created what's called
the Life Ready program, which is really focused on preparing
youth for the future. So it has a lot of
different components in it. But what's really special about it is,
is the attitude I would like to say behind it.
(08:18):
So it's a family based approach. It looks at looking
at the family. It looks at now and in the future.
So there's a future based component rather than this is
what you need now. It's also this is what you
need in the future. There's something called the Life Ready Hub,
which has learning and development resources for children and young
(08:38):
people so they can access it with their parents or
their carers, and they can learn all different, different things
about different subjects. Um, it's just a huge, huge, uh,
program and project that really just puts that idea of
starting early and having high expectations early.
S3 (08:58):
So what kind of impact did you see in the
young people who participated in these programs?
S4 (09:04):
I am old enough now that I have hit ten
years And I am at the, the the other end
of seeing people who were in these programs that are
now working, some of them are working at Vision Australia
and and contributing to Vision Australia. Others are working in
other areas. I have seen these younger people grow up
(09:27):
to be adults and really just just take on so
many different opportunities. It's so humbling to now that I've
gone back to employment services, to have that full circle moment.
After ten years of seeing someone who I knew as
a kid, now a professional adult, and I think it's
just that preparedness and also just that willingness to give
(09:51):
things a try. The biggest thing that is brought up during,
you know, working with children and working with children with disabilities,
learned helplessness. And the idea behind that is basically that
if you do something for everyone or if they try
to do something and they're not able or people don't
encourage them to do it. They'll just stop doing it.
(10:12):
So why try if there's no reason to try? So
if you brush someone's teeth every night and they have
the ability to brush their teeth, but you brush it
every night, why would they learn to do it? Why
would they know? They had to learn to do it?
So that's part of the expectation in a very simple example,
an expectation that you set up that if you drive
(10:33):
someone everywhere and they have the ability to travel independently,
but you drive them, they're going to expect that someone's
going to drive them forever because they wouldn't expect any different.
S2 (10:41):
Indeed. So do you have any extreme examples either way, really,
of expectations that, I mean, we don't have to name
names or anything like that, but people that have crossed
your desk where the expectations are really, really low and
perhaps even, I don't know, a little bit unrealistic as well.
S4 (10:56):
Oh yeah, they're on both sides. So some of the
expectations um, and again, there's a, there's a bias coming
from my side as well that I have to be
aware of. So for example, I, you know, would speak
to someone and talk about employment. They'd say, But I'm
vision impaired or but I'm blind. And I'm like, yeah,
we're Vision Australia. We're aware of that, you know? So
(11:17):
that expectation that employment would not be a possibility, it's
not something I'll ever be able to do. It's not
something I would ever be able to have any skills
for or have the ability to do. In one of
a very, very sad moment, um, with a young person,
he was amazed that someone could be in a relationship
with someone else.
S2 (11:37):
Oh wow.
S4 (11:38):
So that was an incredible moment to see someone's life
just kind of change in that moment, realizing I can
have a life just as fulfilling as everyone else's. And
it was very shocking in that moment to go. You
didn't think that was a possibility, you know, and just
being amazed by by the fact that someone has a
(12:00):
partner and has children and is blind.
S3 (12:02):
So a big part of this conversation, I guess, is
the way that adults, especially parents, teachers and mentors, can
shape the self-image of young people as they grow up.
So what kinds of attitudes and assumptions did you see
coming from these adults, and how did you work through that?
S4 (12:23):
That's a I think a really good example is I
was speaking to someone and he had a support worker
with him. And the support worker was answering on behalf.
S2 (12:34):
Oh dear.
S4 (12:35):
Yes. I was very polite and said, look, I appreciate
that you want to put in some information here, but
I'm actually speaking to I'm just going to say, Sam,
I'm speaking to Sam right now. So if you don't mind,
you can. You're happy. I'm happy to have you here.
You know, but I'm speaking to Sam. And then I
asked Sam another question. And this. He took a few minutes,
(12:56):
and the support worker said, say you don't know. And
I said, how do you know he doesn't know? And
she said, oh, because he doesn't. I said, well, if
you just just sit there and be quiet for a minute,
I'm just going to ask the question again. Sam was
perfectly able to answer that question. He needed a minute.
So if you sat there and you tell someone that
they don't know how to answer a question, they think, oh, yeah,
(13:18):
I don't know how to answer that question. He absolutely
knew how to answer that question. So that expectation being
put on him say you don't know. That was very,
very upsetting to me. And you know, from then on
it was actually the yeah, I'd say Sam was quite
happy that someone was speaking to them rather than speaking
(13:40):
for them. And that's something about finding your voice. Yeah, yeah.
Finding your voice. Finding your confidence and finding your ability
to advocate for yourself. How do you advocate for yourself
if you're literally not allowed to speak?
S2 (13:52):
That is such a common, common thing as well among, um,
blind and vision impaired people. To a larger degree, it's
often a lot easier for someone else to be at
the front talking, and the first instinct is to basically
just sit in the back and listen.
S5 (14:06):
Mhm. Mhm.
S4 (14:08):
Or to observe. You're told to observe. Mhm. And you
know how do you learn.
S3 (14:13):
Exactly. Or of course you get the classic example of,
and this has happened to me a lot going out
with a support worker and say you're at a cafe,
the waiting staff will address the support worker and ask
what I want. Um, rather than asking me as if
I don't know.
S5 (14:31):
Mhm. Mhm.
S4 (14:32):
And that's, that's taking away someone's voice. That's taking away
someone's confidence. And think about the impact that that has
further on, especially in terms of body autonomy. You've, you've
learnt that you can't speak for yourself. Oh absolutely. That's a.
S3 (14:48):
Powerful thing.
S4 (14:49):
Yeah. And then you've learnt that, you know in terms
of work you can't do it yourself. You know, that's
that's what that is teaching without meaning to teach it.
And well-meaning, very well-meaning teachers give what we call a
gift grade. They say, oh, you're doing as well as
you can. So we're going to give you a passing grade.
But when they hit the real world, they think they
have higher skills than they do. So it's not actually
(15:12):
helping anyone in the long run. Doing things for someone
rather than supporting them to do it to the best
of their ability. And again, some people cannot do it physically.
Mentally cannot do certain things. And that's fine. That's not
what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when someone is
physically and mentally able to do a task and they're
not given the opportunity to learn and they're not given
(15:33):
the opportunity, you know, to do it themselves. Then then
when they go out into the big world and they
and they go to a job or they go, you know,
to a house, they're expecting to be supported in that
same manner for their entire life. And that's not what
it's like. If you go and get a job, there's
not going to be someone doing the job for you.
There may be someone who can assist in certain paths
that you're expected a level of independence. If you go
(15:56):
out into the world, you're expected to do you know,
certain things. And if you don't learn to do those
things when you're young, you won't know the importance of them.
And the other thing is, is that I just put
it this way. If I had my bed, made my
food sculpt my entire life, why would I learn to
do it? Yeah, I'm perfectly happy it's all been done,
you know? And again, people don't do this out of harm.
(16:18):
People don't do this because they think it's a protection thing.
They think it's it's helping someone, right? That this is it.
But I like to think of it is you can
only grow in this space you're given.
S2 (16:28):
I used to encounter this as a coach, um, when
I was coaching, um, vision impaired athletes. And, um, one
of my former coaches actually had, um, a really good, uh,
saying about the situation, and that is blind and vision
impaired kids have the same ability to acquire bumps and
bruises as the rest of us do, and they have
the same right to get them and the same ability
(16:50):
to heal from them.
S4 (16:51):
Absolutely, absolutely.
S2 (16:55):
So yes, that's that's the that's the mighty Chris Nunn talking.
S4 (16:58):
The beautiful words.
S3 (16:59):
That's a great philosophy too, by the way, because like
my parents, I mean, just my parents and grandparents had
rouse arguments. I mean, I don't remember them, but if, um,
if my parents are to be believed, there was some
epic arguments because, yeah, I'd run into walls, I'd run
into shelves, I'd run into the corner of things. And, um,
(17:21):
my mom and dad said, well, um, like, if you
protect her every time she's about to hit something, she
won't learn to put her bumpers up or to learn
basic orientation to get herself around. And she'll, you know,
and let's take these mistakes.
S4 (17:34):
Let's take that further of the importance of failing, the
importance of not doing everything perfectly because there's such a
fear of failure. I try I try it once. I
don't do it perfectly, therefore I can't do it. That's
not the case. It's just a case of failing safely
that when you fail, it doesn't go well. You can't
do that. I'm going to take that away from you.
(17:54):
There's that encouragement of no, you're you're held to a
standard of you are going to try this, you're going
to keep trying this. And that's that's such an important
lesson in all aspects of life that you have to
be able to fail to succeed.
S3 (18:08):
I was going to ask you before, actually, because we've
been talking about all of these difficult conversations that take
place and all these attitudes and assumptions that people have.
Can you share any moments where there's been like a
breakthrough from these adults or these parents, and you've seen
a shift in attitude?
S4 (18:24):
There's been so many beautiful we like to call them
lightbulb moments. For example, something that we do in, um,
I'll just say the Leap program is we do an
activity where the children can do a fundraiser or they
can do volunteering, and it's a, it's a project that
they're given. And I had a phone call from a
parent once that said, how am I supposed to to
(18:45):
make all these cakes and deliver them and raise money?
And I said, I'm sorry. What? Why would you be
doing that? And she said, well, because my my child
has this assignment to do that. And I said, yes.
And your child chose to do that assignment. Why would
you be responsible for doing it? And it was like
this moment. And she said, well, bitch, you know, she
(19:06):
she has to make the I said, why did she
could choose to do whatever she wanted to choose. She
chose to do baking. So therefore she will be baking them.
She didn't choose anything else. She chose this. You don't
have to deliver anything. You don't have to bake things
if you want to help her and make sure she's safe.
But this is not your assignment. This is hers. And
there was such a light bulb moment there where she went, oh, oh.
(19:31):
And it was it was really, really great to see
that in her, to say, no, this isn't my responsibility
to make sure that my child does it. It's theirs.
And that's just one of them. There's so many other
ones that that come even just from parents interacting with
other parents and hearing what's possible or learning from each other,
or the kids learning from each other. Just yeah, there's
(19:53):
just these great lightbulb moments. One of my my favorite
moments was when we had, you know, an adaptive technologist specialist.
Talk about how they use technology throughout their lives and
what they do with it, and not just in terms of,
you know, work, but also in terms of I go
camping or I use this to find a venue or
(20:14):
this is how I go to, you know, get or
get my hair cut. Yeah, things like that that are
just such little things but are so huge when you
realize this is something you can do and it's something
you should do.
S3 (20:26):
Can you talk about the importance that, you know, peer
connection and community plays in developing the confidence of these
young people? Because I can imagine that spending time with
other young people who are out there and doing the
things that they want to do would encourage them to
do better and be better, right?
S4 (20:43):
Yeah. I mean, I think it's just that, you know,
in a way like representation matters and connections matter. Knowing
you're not alone, you don't know any different because this
is the way. I mean, it's, you know, if you're
if you're raised one way and you meet someone else
and you go, oh, they do things differently or, or
things happen differently. There's there's that connection. I think what's
(21:04):
also important in terms of connections is, is we try
to connect people with with mentors and these great examples, right,
of these, of these people. But you don't have to
be the exception. You don't have to be. And these
are amazing people. But Matt Bornstein, you don't have to
be someone who who surfs. You don't have to be
(21:26):
a fashion designer. You know, like Nicky, Nicky Hines, like
these amazing, incredible people. You don't have to be all
or nothing.
S2 (21:34):
Again, I mean, some in some ways the Paralympics have
kind of set us up for that as well to
some degree. Because yes, it's fantastic that once every four
years or so it's recognized that, hey, disabled people do
sport and do wonderful things, but then the expectation rises
that why can't somebody else do that?
S4 (21:51):
Yeah. And it's just, you know, is everybody held to
an Olympic standard? No.
S3 (21:55):
Yeah.
S4 (21:56):
You know, so that's the thing that that I do
feel that there is that all or nothing type of
of of you either have to be fantastic and and outstanding.
And the best example um, or you can do nothing.
And that's just not true. Every one of us has
a place. Every one of us has, has something that
we connect with. And that may be, um, as huge
(22:19):
as being a Paralympian who wins gold medals. Or it
might be, um, just being able to, to listen to
books and, and, and interact with the community. Those things matter.
And I think that's some of the issues behind disability
representation is, you know, you're expected to be a bit
of a superstar or have superpowers because, you know, there's that,
(22:40):
that great, great thing. But it's really about trying to
reach the goals that you have set for yourself and
and trying to live the life as independently and meaningfully
as you can.
S3 (22:51):
Well, I think one thing that gets overlooked in the
disability space or the disabled community is that just like
the rest of the human race. There's a spectrum to
levels of success, of course. Like you have, you know,
sighted people who some of them are CEOs and great
athletes and some are, well, that don't work and have
(23:15):
trouble facing the community the same like facing the world,
the same with the disabled community as well. Like we
are not all super successful, but you know, those of
us that aren't aren't, you know, just sitting in the
shadows doing nothing like there's this, do you know what
I mean? Like there's this. Yeah.
S4 (23:30):
We don't we don't all have one personality.
S3 (23:32):
Yeah. There's this expectation that if we want to do something,
we want to be the best at it, which, you know,
comes with, you know, even in sport, you know, it's
assumed that just because you want to get into a sport,
you automatically have dreams of going to the Paralympics.
S4 (23:45):
And I've.
S3 (23:46):
I've.
S4 (23:46):
Dreamt of going for a stroll, you know, when it's
raining out. I mean, and that's the thing, like, I
don't think that anybody and again not to put down
anyone who does these huge accomplishments because they are huge accomplishments,
but just being active or just being involved in the community,
you know, being being engaged, that that's something that's meaningful too.
(24:07):
And I think there is a bit of kind of
value judgment on people that, you know, it's your choice.
It's what you want to do. It's how you want
to do it. And and I think that's almost taken away.
A bit of you either have to be the best
or you get nothing. And there's those shades of grey
that the world just, just, you know, and sometimes parents
and sometimes carers and sometimes even even ourselves, we don't
(24:28):
see there's that issue of I have to be a
great representation, so I can't do anything wrong. Of course
I can. I'm human.
S3 (24:34):
So how much do you think the world's attitude affects
the attitudes of the parents of these young people? Say
a parent of a young disabled child sees a Paralympian
or some incredible person doing something and their kid isn't,
you know, up to that standard or showing great potential.
Do you think that that has the possibility or the
potential to impact the way that that parent then interacts
(24:58):
with their child.
S4 (24:59):
Sometimes people say, you know, my child cannot do this
because their vision impaired or blind, and other times they'll say,
my child can do this because they are my child.
So it happens in both ways that people can get
negatively affected, or they can get positively affected because they
believe that they believe in their child. And that's such
a strong thing to have is belief in your child.
(25:21):
I mean, I will give a personal example is I
was speaking about, you know, someone at work and they
were looking for, you know, potentially working in another place
and they were vision impaired. My father turned to me
and said, oh, wouldn't it be hard for them to
get a job somewhere else if their vision impaired? And
I just looked at him and I said, you know,
I'm vision impaired. And he goes, yeah, it'd be a different.
S2 (25:43):
Ah, yes.
S4 (25:44):
Yeah.
S3 (25:44):
Because what does that even mean?
S4 (25:46):
It means I'm his kid. I don't, I don't, I
don't exist in, in any other, in any other world.
You know, it's it's weird. I think parents say that
sometimes like that in either a positive or a negative
way that yeah, that's that's great that other people do this,
you know, the or that's the way that people are seeing.
But this is my kids that they're seeing differently.
S3 (26:06):
Do you think it's uh, the older generations that have
more of these negative attitudes than the younger ones? Like,
do you think that as parents and teachers and that
are getting younger, their attitudes are shifting like generations.
S4 (26:20):
Even in the last ten years, 100%, 100%. It's also
because people are getting more aware of technology and what
can be done. Um, so I think that that and
also don't forget that that within the last, you know,
ten years, we've gotten things like meta glasses and there's
more awareness on inclusion and, and disability and, and there's,
(26:42):
you know, there's a blind Barbie, like, there's there's going
to be a self-driving car. There are self-driving cars in America.
You know, there's there's all this technology and all this
change that people are starting to realize when it's in
the mainstream, that it also can be used for vision impairment.
Things like voiceover, audible, all those sort of things that
are coming into the mainstream, I think are affecting people's perspectives.
(27:06):
And it is interesting to see some of the younger
kids go, oh, well, why wouldn't an employer think that
that I wouldn't be able to do the job? And
it's like, because they don't understand how you do the
job and they're like, well, why wouldn't they? And it's like, well,
they may not understand how your technology works or, or
how you do things. And I feel that that is
absolutely getting better in the sense that that people are
(27:30):
more aware of how people do things rather than just going,
I don't know. I mean, and think about it, when
when we didn't have computers, we didn't have jaws, we
didn't have, you know, um, zoom text and all those
sort of things. And people were being handwritten. You had
a tape recorder, you know, maybe that was it. Now
there's so many different things that you can do with
(27:51):
so many different technologies and, you know, braille displays and
and art. It's just so much amazing stuff that's happening
that I think people are realizing, you know, I use
this in my everyday. This is something that vision impaired
or blind people can use as well. So I do
think that that is changing slowly, but I do think
(28:11):
it is changing towards a positive perspective. And also there
just is more more options.
S3 (28:17):
Do you think it's also got to do with the
fact that as the old like older institutions and attitudes
and things like that are shutting down, like more blind
people are, are being seen out and about like more
blind people are like able to interact with their community.
Therefore it's more commonplace to see them and therefore education
(28:39):
is more freely available as well.
S4 (28:41):
I think so. I think I think it's that that
isolation of, of not being able to leave without, you know,
or being in an institution where you were separated and
you were isolated from the community at large or from others.
I think that that that breakdown of isolation is very important.
(29:02):
I have recently been in a couple of events which
were highly attended by people who had canes or dogs,
and I just loved seeing that inclusion and that ability
for people to go out and enjoy concerts or shows or, or,
you know, festivals and those sort of things and feel
comfortable in order to do that. And that just makes
(29:25):
me so happy. It makes me so happy. Um, and that's,
you know, it's hard because people are putting themselves out
there in that, in that instance where, again, with the
parents who want to protect them, you might want to
protect yourself sometimes. But I've just been very, very lucky
to be involved with some events that have just been
(29:45):
fantastic lately. And, um, just having the opportunity to talk
to these people about their interests and, and their lives
and yeah, it's just been fantastic. One of them was
actually God, I'm going to out myself as a nerd here.
Voice actors play Dungeons and Dragons, and there's people from
from this show that's been going on for ten years,
came to Australia recently, and it had a very, very,
(30:06):
very diverse group of people that were there. And I
was very happy to see because you don't need sight
for vision to play Dungeons and Dragons.
S3 (30:14):
Not apparently.
S4 (30:15):
Not all your imagination. So there are a lot of
people there, and we all just sat there and listened.
Listened to people playing Dungeons and Dragons like the big
nerds we are.
S3 (30:24):
That's very cool. I also think social media has had
a lot to do with it, because, you know, you've
got people like Molly Burke and Sadie, the blind lady,
people that are out on TikTok and Facebook and like,
this is how I do this. And, you know, it's educational,
but it's also fun, you know, demystifying it.
S4 (30:41):
Yeah, it's defying stuff. Is, is is so important because
people are afraid to ask sometimes, you know, and demystify
how do you do this? How how is this actually done.
Makes it easier to have those conversations and also knowing
how you do things or trying different things. You may
be doing something for 20 years and though some some
sudden someone says, oh, this is an easy way to
(31:02):
do it.
S2 (31:03):
This kind of brings us back in a way, to
work as well. Because when I first got into the, um, employment. Yeah,
into employment from school, I'd go for a job and
somebody would, would be quite confident to say outright, I
don't think you can do this job. Mhm. Then it
would be up to me to put them right.
S4 (31:19):
Yes.
S2 (31:20):
Where things moved on after that though was we got
all politically correct and people were afraid of causing offence. Yeah.
So they did not want to seem uh as if
they were ignorant. So instead they wouldn't ask those questions.
They wouldn't state, no, I don't think you can do
this job. So, yeah, you just wouldn't get the job.
S4 (31:40):
100%. And that's, that's something that actually I've noticed as
a trend, um, again, aging myself, um, over the last
ten years that when I first started, it was very
much just say, you can do the job, just say
you can do the job. And then, you know, and
when we were talking about it, you know, it's just
so you can do the job, but that's it. And
that left a huge thing, which is, I've said I
(32:01):
can do the job, but they're afraid to ask how.
So now you have to say how you're going to
do the job. What technology are you going to use?
What what skills you're going to use. What techniques are
you going to use? What things are you going to try?
What have you done in the past? What do you
do now? It's something that that again demystifies. The more
(32:21):
that you can provide about how you do something, the
less questions they're going to have about your ability to
do it.
S3 (32:28):
My last question is this if you could say just
one thing to every influential figure in the lives of
these young people, what would it be?
S4 (32:38):
I think just aim high, because if you don't set
high expectations, they can't rise to them.
S2 (32:44):
So before we go, and this is my last question,
the title of this episode is when I Grow Up.
So what are you going to do when you grow up?
S4 (32:51):
That's a good question. I think that when I grow up,
I actually do have a plan. Um, and I it
involves me winning the lotto. Right. Um, yeah. So after
I win the lottery, I'm going to open up a
coffee slash bookstore where I get to listen to audible
books and also play with puppies. So that is what
I would like to be when I grow up. But
(33:12):
if I am very, very lucky and I am able
to to keep doing the things that I'm doing now,
I would be extremely happy if I can keep working
with people and keep learning and keep developing in this field,
and just get to see more kids grow up to
(33:32):
be fantastic adults. That would be an absolute dream come true.
S2 (33:37):
That's a wrap for this week. A big thank you
to Belinda Wilson.
S3 (33:41):
And of course, thanks to you for listening. That includes
our listeners on the Reading Radio Network. You can find
a podcast of this program, including some extra content on Apple, Spotify,
Google or your favorite podcast platform next week.
S2 (33:57):
Blind Citizens Australia was formed 50 years ago. We delve
into the beginnings of the organisation and what has been
achieved in the last five decades.
S3 (34:05):
But between now and then, please do get in touch
with the show. Whether you have experience of any of
the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio One,
or if you think there's something we should be talking about.
You never know. Your story and insight may help someone
who's dealing with something similar.
S2 (34:20):
You can email us Studio One at org. That's studio
number one at Vision Australia.
S3 (34:25):
Org or of course you can find us on all
the good social media platforms like Facebook or Instagram by
searching for VA Radio Network.
S2 (34:34):
Studio one was produced in the Adelaide studios of Vision
Australia Radio. It was made possible with the support from
the Community Broadcasting Foundation.
S3 (34:42):
Find out more at. Now I'm curious, Sam, what do
you want to do when you grow up?
S2 (34:50):
Um, I never will.
This is studio one on Vision Australia Radio.
S2 (00:26):
Hello, I'm Sam.
S3 (00:27):
And I'm Lizzie.
S2 (00:28):
And this is Studio One, your weekly look at life
from a low vision and blind point of view. Here
on Vision Australia Radio.
S3 (00:34):
This week, what do you want to be when you
grow up?
S2 (00:36):
Do the expectations, both positive or negative, of family, friends
and our support network in general affect what we do
with our lives?
S3 (00:43):
Vision Australia's own Belinda Wilson talks about learned helplessness and
how it can simply make us accept our place in life.
S2 (00:51):
As we always say at this point, please do get
in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of
any of the issues covered on this week's episode of
Studio One, or if you think there's something we should
be talking about. You never know. Your story and insight
may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar.
S3 (01:06):
You can contact us via email at studio one at Australia. Org.
That's studio number one at update in Australia. Or of course,
you can drop us a note on our Facebook page
by going to facebook.com slash.
S2 (01:22):
Belinda Wilson, how are you?
S4 (01:23):
I am doing fantastic. How are you doing?
S2 (01:26):
I'm pretty good. And as you can tell, Matthew's voice
has changed a little bit. He's no longer speaking with
an English accent. It's been that long since you've been
on that? Uh, yes. We've, uh, changed from Matthew to Lizzie.
I think it might be an improvement. Who knows? But anyway, um,
this the subject that we're dealing with is people's expectations
(01:46):
of people like us, as it were. So, um, Lizzie,
I mean, you've said you've had mostly a positive experience with, uh,
your family's expectations.
S3 (01:57):
Yeah. So just I wanted to start off by saying
what brought this about is in my conversations with the community,
a lot of people expressed that the attitudes of influential
figures in their lives really went a long way into
shaping the way that they saw themselves growing up. So,
you know, people who, like myself, had positive experiences where
(02:21):
disability was never seen as a barrier or a limitation,
grew up with high expectations for themselves. And, you know,
I've grown up being a confident person, and I've always
pursued independence and, um, you know, always taken pride in
myself and things like that. But there are definitely people whose,
you know, parents, teachers and mentors have not had the
(02:42):
greatest impact on their self-esteem and self-image. So that's what
we're discussing today. And yes, I have had a positive
experience with with my parents and teachers and mentors. I
was told that I could do anything I set my
mind to except for being a, um, race car driver.
Which yeah, sadly didn't pan out.
S2 (03:00):
I pretty much had a similar experience. I mean, Belinda
disability found you as opposed to you finding it, though,
didn't it?
S3 (03:05):
Uh, in a way, yes.
S4 (03:07):
There is another factor about me that is not a disability. Um,
but bathroom. This is how you think about it. But
I am type one diabetic. So from age seven I
was insulin dependent in the 80s, which basically meant they
just gave you some medicine and and hoped that you
lived and didn't really. There wasn't that much science behind it.
(03:28):
It was more of a guesswork game. Nowadays we have, uh,
blood glucose monitors and insulin pumps and these fantastic scientific things.
But back then it was very much seen as not
from my perspective. But when I got older, I very
much seen as well. You're not going to be able
to do this. You're not going to be able to
do that. I was never told that. I went on
school camp with everyone else and just gave myself injections
(03:51):
of the food that I was going there brought glucose
in case I went low. I did hiking, I was yeah,
I was out in the camp. I was there was
nothing that they ever said, you cannot do. My parents,
my teachers, I think I just told them I was
going to do it. And yeah, everyone I've been with
my entire life in that sense has never put any
limitations on me When the vision impairment found me, I
(04:13):
had a similar attitude. Maybe because of the way I
grew up that, um, why would I not be able
to do anything? And, um, people, you know, sometimes say
when they disclose to their employers, they get nervous. I
just told them. I just told my employers. I didn't
see any reason why I shouldn't tell my employers, because
I could still do my job. And, uh, that was
(04:34):
that was something. Now, looking back on it that I went, yeah,
that was probably because of the way I was raised,
which is as long as you can prove you can
do something, you can do it.
S2 (04:42):
I've got a funny story to tell that's sort of
related to what you just said, because, uh, when the, uh, employment, uh,
system went from a government run system with the SES to, um,
private as it is nowadays. Yes, I'm that old, I've
got to admit. Um, I applied to be part of it.
And one of the questions was, do you have a
(05:04):
disability that would affect your ability to do your job?
And I actually went, no.
S3 (05:10):
Um.
S2 (05:10):
And ended up missing out on, um, disability support because
of it. Because my disability may affect a lot of things,
but it did not affect my ability to do what
I was then doing for work. So yeah, yeah.
S4 (05:22):
It's a bit of a double edged sword because, you know,
it's the same thing with, um, disclosure, like, you know,
will this affect the inherent abilities, ability to do your job?
And the answer, you know, maybe no. And then sometimes
it's like, unless, unless that might be your benefit because
sometimes there's there's places that are looking for lived experience
or for, you know, experience in those type of areas.
S3 (05:45):
So speaking of employment and all things work, how did
you become involved with children and young people at Vision Australia?
S4 (05:52):
Yeah, that was an accident. So, um, it was very strange, um,
how how things came about. And I have moved about
a fair bit in a few different years. And I
started off, I think last time you guys spoke to me,
I was in employment. Was that correct?
S2 (06:08):
I think you'd only just gone over to sleep.
S4 (06:11):
Okay, so let's go.
S2 (06:12):
Over to.
S4 (06:13):
The left. Over to the left. So I was I
came to employment Services and I did I did have some, um,
experience through a grant that was given through the Empowering
Youth Initiatives. So it was a two year grant called
Building Stronger Futures. And that was when I started working
with 14 to 24 year olds as a part of
this grant. And we kind of had a pre employment
program and then a post part when we were we
(06:36):
were working with, um, with the children. And I didn't
really I saw it differently than working with the adult population,
but it was more of the content and the structure
more than, than anything else. And then I moved over
to leap, and I felt like there was just a
big disconnect between and this is the I didn't create leap.
(06:58):
I've got to give a lot of credit to the
people who created leap. There was this big disconnect when
people came into employment services of of what they they
thought about themselves or what they could do or what they,
they had knowledge of. And I feel that leap kind
of helps prepare people at that younger age with organizational skills,
with time management skills, with adaptive technology skills, with knowing
(07:21):
about different types of jobs and speaking to different people.
And I did feel there was a big lack in
that type of awareness and preparation when people went into employment.
And it was it was very, very difficult in that
sense of having that gap. Now there's this, you know,
bridge between the two, which I think is fantastic and that,
(07:42):
I mean, as much as I love leap and I
want everyone to go into leap, that's not just leap now,
that's as due to the creation of the Life ready, um, program.
And I don't know if you guys are familiar with
the Life Ready program.
S3 (07:54):
Know to tell us all about.
S2 (07:56):
It. Definitely tell us about it.
S4 (07:57):
So some fantastic people at Vision Australia and some fantastic
people on the board of Vision Australia created what's called
the Life Ready program, which is really focused on preparing
youth for the future. So it has a lot of
different components in it. But what's really special about it is,
is the attitude I would like to say behind it.
(08:18):
So it's a family based approach. It looks at looking
at the family. It looks at now and in the future.
So there's a future based component rather than this is
what you need now. It's also this is what you
need in the future. There's something called the Life Ready Hub,
which has learning and development resources for children and young
(08:38):
people so they can access it with their parents or
their carers, and they can learn all different, different things
about different subjects. Um, it's just a huge, huge, uh,
program and project that really just puts that idea of
starting early and having high expectations early.
S3 (08:58):
So what kind of impact did you see in the
young people who participated in these programs?
S4 (09:04):
I am old enough now that I have hit ten
years And I am at the, the the other end
of seeing people who were in these programs that are
now working, some of them are working at Vision Australia
and and contributing to Vision Australia. Others are working in
other areas. I have seen these younger people grow up
(09:27):
to be adults and really just just take on so
many different opportunities. It's so humbling to now that I've
gone back to employment services, to have that full circle moment.
After ten years of seeing someone who I knew as
a kid, now a professional adult, and I think it's
just that preparedness and also just that willingness to give
(09:51):
things a try. The biggest thing that is brought up during,
you know, working with children and working with children with disabilities,
learned helplessness. And the idea behind that is basically that
if you do something for everyone or if they try
to do something and they're not able or people don't
encourage them to do it. They'll just stop doing it.
(10:12):
So why try if there's no reason to try? So
if you brush someone's teeth every night and they have
the ability to brush their teeth, but you brush it
every night, why would they learn to do it? Why
would they know? They had to learn to do it?
So that's part of the expectation in a very simple example,
an expectation that you set up that if you drive
(10:33):
someone everywhere and they have the ability to travel independently,
but you drive them, they're going to expect that someone's
going to drive them forever because they wouldn't expect any different.
S2 (10:41):
Indeed. So do you have any extreme examples either way, really,
of expectations that, I mean, we don't have to name
names or anything like that, but people that have crossed
your desk where the expectations are really, really low and
perhaps even, I don't know, a little bit unrealistic as well.
S4 (10:56):
Oh yeah, they're on both sides. So some of the
expectations um, and again, there's a, there's a bias coming
from my side as well that I have to be
aware of. So for example, I, you know, would speak
to someone and talk about employment. They'd say, But I'm
vision impaired or but I'm blind. And I'm like, yeah,
we're Vision Australia. We're aware of that, you know? So
(11:17):
that expectation that employment would not be a possibility, it's
not something I'll ever be able to do. It's not
something I would ever be able to have any skills
for or have the ability to do. In one of
a very, very sad moment, um, with a young person,
he was amazed that someone could be in a relationship
with someone else.
S2 (11:37):
Oh wow.
S4 (11:38):
So that was an incredible moment to see someone's life
just kind of change in that moment, realizing I can
have a life just as fulfilling as everyone else's. And
it was very shocking in that moment to go. You
didn't think that was a possibility, you know, and just
being amazed by by the fact that someone has a
(12:00):
partner and has children and is blind.
S3 (12:02):
So a big part of this conversation, I guess, is
the way that adults, especially parents, teachers and mentors, can
shape the self-image of young people as they grow up.
So what kinds of attitudes and assumptions did you see
coming from these adults, and how did you work through that?
S4 (12:23):
That's a I think a really good example is I
was speaking to someone and he had a support worker
with him. And the support worker was answering on behalf.
S2 (12:34):
Oh dear.
S4 (12:35):
Yes. I was very polite and said, look, I appreciate
that you want to put in some information here, but
I'm actually speaking to I'm just going to say, Sam,
I'm speaking to Sam right now. So if you don't mind,
you can. You're happy. I'm happy to have you here.
You know, but I'm speaking to Sam. And then I
asked Sam another question. And this. He took a few minutes,
(12:56):
and the support worker said, say you don't know. And
I said, how do you know he doesn't know? And
she said, oh, because he doesn't. I said, well, if
you just just sit there and be quiet for a minute,
I'm just going to ask the question again. Sam was
perfectly able to answer that question. He needed a minute.
So if you sat there and you tell someone that
they don't know how to answer a question, they think, oh, yeah,
(13:18):
I don't know how to answer that question. He absolutely
knew how to answer that question. So that expectation being
put on him say you don't know. That was very,
very upsetting to me. And you know, from then on
it was actually the yeah, I'd say Sam was quite
happy that someone was speaking to them rather than speaking
(13:40):
for them. And that's something about finding your voice. Yeah, yeah.
Finding your voice. Finding your confidence and finding your ability
to advocate for yourself. How do you advocate for yourself
if you're literally not allowed to speak?
S2 (13:52):
That is such a common, common thing as well among, um,
blind and vision impaired people. To a larger degree, it's
often a lot easier for someone else to be at
the front talking, and the first instinct is to basically
just sit in the back and listen.
S5 (14:06):
Mhm. Mhm.
S4 (14:08):
Or to observe. You're told to observe. Mhm. And you
know how do you learn.
S3 (14:13):
Exactly. Or of course you get the classic example of,
and this has happened to me a lot going out
with a support worker and say you're at a cafe,
the waiting staff will address the support worker and ask
what I want. Um, rather than asking me as if
I don't know.
S5 (14:31):
Mhm. Mhm.
S4 (14:32):
And that's, that's taking away someone's voice. That's taking away
someone's confidence. And think about the impact that that has
further on, especially in terms of body autonomy. You've, you've
learnt that you can't speak for yourself. Oh absolutely. That's a.
S3 (14:48):
Powerful thing.
S4 (14:49):
Yeah. And then you've learnt that, you know in terms
of work you can't do it yourself. You know, that's
that's what that is teaching without meaning to teach it.
And well-meaning, very well-meaning teachers give what we call a
gift grade. They say, oh, you're doing as well as
you can. So we're going to give you a passing grade.
But when they hit the real world, they think they
have higher skills than they do. So it's not actually
(15:12):
helping anyone in the long run. Doing things for someone
rather than supporting them to do it to the best
of their ability. And again, some people cannot do it physically.
Mentally cannot do certain things. And that's fine. That's not
what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when someone is
physically and mentally able to do a task and they're
not given the opportunity to learn and they're not given
(15:33):
the opportunity, you know, to do it themselves. Then then
when they go out into the big world and they
and they go to a job or they go, you know,
to a house, they're expecting to be supported in that
same manner for their entire life. And that's not what
it's like. If you go and get a job, there's
not going to be someone doing the job for you.
There may be someone who can assist in certain paths
that you're expected a level of independence. If you go
(15:56):
out into the world, you're expected to do you know,
certain things. And if you don't learn to do those
things when you're young, you won't know the importance of them.
And the other thing is, is that I just put
it this way. If I had my bed, made my
food sculpt my entire life, why would I learn to
do it? Yeah, I'm perfectly happy it's all been done,
you know? And again, people don't do this out of harm.
(16:18):
People don't do this because they think it's a protection thing.
They think it's it's helping someone, right? That this is it.
But I like to think of it is you can
only grow in this space you're given.
S2 (16:28):
I used to encounter this as a coach, um, when
I was coaching, um, vision impaired athletes. And, um, one
of my former coaches actually had, um, a really good, uh,
saying about the situation, and that is blind and vision
impaired kids have the same ability to acquire bumps and
bruises as the rest of us do, and they have
the same right to get them and the same ability
(16:50):
to heal from them.
S4 (16:51):
Absolutely, absolutely.
S2 (16:55):
So yes, that's that's the that's the mighty Chris Nunn talking.
S4 (16:58):
The beautiful words.
S3 (16:59):
That's a great philosophy too, by the way, because like
my parents, I mean, just my parents and grandparents had
rouse arguments. I mean, I don't remember them, but if, um,
if my parents are to be believed, there was some
epic arguments because, yeah, I'd run into walls, I'd run
into shelves, I'd run into the corner of things. And, um,
(17:21):
my mom and dad said, well, um, like, if you
protect her every time she's about to hit something, she
won't learn to put her bumpers up or to learn
basic orientation to get herself around. And she'll, you know,
and let's take these mistakes.
S4 (17:34):
Let's take that further of the importance of failing, the
importance of not doing everything perfectly because there's such a
fear of failure. I try I try it once. I
don't do it perfectly, therefore I can't do it. That's
not the case. It's just a case of failing safely
that when you fail, it doesn't go well. You can't
do that. I'm going to take that away from you.
(17:54):
There's that encouragement of no, you're you're held to a
standard of you are going to try this, you're going
to keep trying this. And that's that's such an important
lesson in all aspects of life that you have to
be able to fail to succeed.
S3 (18:08):
I was going to ask you before, actually, because we've
been talking about all of these difficult conversations that take
place and all these attitudes and assumptions that people have.
Can you share any moments where there's been like a
breakthrough from these adults or these parents, and you've seen
a shift in attitude?
S4 (18:24):
There's been so many beautiful we like to call them
lightbulb moments. For example, something that we do in, um,
I'll just say the Leap program is we do an
activity where the children can do a fundraiser or they
can do volunteering, and it's a, it's a project that
they're given. And I had a phone call from a
parent once that said, how am I supposed to to
(18:45):
make all these cakes and deliver them and raise money?
And I said, I'm sorry. What? Why would you be
doing that? And she said, well, because my my child
has this assignment to do that. And I said, yes.
And your child chose to do that assignment. Why would
you be responsible for doing it? And it was like
this moment. And she said, well, bitch, you know, she
(19:06):
she has to make the I said, why did she
could choose to do whatever she wanted to choose. She
chose to do baking. So therefore she will be baking them.
She didn't choose anything else. She chose this. You don't
have to deliver anything. You don't have to bake things
if you want to help her and make sure she's safe.
But this is not your assignment. This is hers. And
there was such a light bulb moment there where she went, oh, oh.
(19:31):
And it was it was really, really great to see
that in her, to say, no, this isn't my responsibility
to make sure that my child does it. It's theirs.
And that's just one of them. There's so many other
ones that that come even just from parents interacting with
other parents and hearing what's possible or learning from each other,
or the kids learning from each other. Just yeah, there's
(19:53):
just these great lightbulb moments. One of my my favorite
moments was when we had, you know, an adaptive technologist specialist.
Talk about how they use technology throughout their lives and
what they do with it, and not just in terms of,
you know, work, but also in terms of I go
camping or I use this to find a venue or
(20:14):
this is how I go to, you know, get or
get my hair cut. Yeah, things like that that are
just such little things but are so huge when you
realize this is something you can do and it's something
you should do.
S3 (20:26):
Can you talk about the importance that, you know, peer
connection and community plays in developing the confidence of these
young people? Because I can imagine that spending time with
other young people who are out there and doing the
things that they want to do would encourage them to
do better and be better, right?
S4 (20:43):
Yeah. I mean, I think it's just that, you know,
in a way like representation matters and connections matter. Knowing
you're not alone, you don't know any different because this
is the way. I mean, it's, you know, if you're
if you're raised one way and you meet someone else
and you go, oh, they do things differently or, or
things happen differently. There's there's that connection. I think what's
(21:04):
also important in terms of connections is, is we try
to connect people with with mentors and these great examples, right,
of these, of these people. But you don't have to
be the exception. You don't have to be. And these
are amazing people. But Matt Bornstein, you don't have to
be someone who who surfs. You don't have to be
(21:26):
a fashion designer. You know, like Nicky, Nicky Hines, like
these amazing, incredible people. You don't have to be all
or nothing.
S2 (21:34):
Again, I mean, some in some ways the Paralympics have
kind of set us up for that as well to
some degree. Because yes, it's fantastic that once every four
years or so it's recognized that, hey, disabled people do
sport and do wonderful things, but then the expectation rises
that why can't somebody else do that?
S4 (21:51):
Yeah. And it's just, you know, is everybody held to
an Olympic standard? No.
S3 (21:55):
Yeah.
S4 (21:56):
You know, so that's the thing that that I do
feel that there is that all or nothing type of
of of you either have to be fantastic and and outstanding.
And the best example um, or you can do nothing.
And that's just not true. Every one of us has
a place. Every one of us has, has something that
we connect with. And that may be, um, as huge
(22:19):
as being a Paralympian who wins gold medals. Or it
might be, um, just being able to, to listen to
books and, and, and interact with the community. Those things matter.
And I think that's some of the issues behind disability
representation is, you know, you're expected to be a bit
of a superstar or have superpowers because, you know, there's that,
(22:40):
that great, great thing. But it's really about trying to
reach the goals that you have set for yourself and
and trying to live the life as independently and meaningfully
as you can.
S3 (22:51):
Well, I think one thing that gets overlooked in the
disability space or the disabled community is that just like
the rest of the human race. There's a spectrum to
levels of success, of course. Like you have, you know,
sighted people who some of them are CEOs and great
athletes and some are, well, that don't work and have
(23:15):
trouble facing the community the same like facing the world,
the same with the disabled community as well. Like we
are not all super successful, but you know, those of
us that aren't aren't, you know, just sitting in the
shadows doing nothing like there's this, do you know what
I mean? Like there's this. Yeah.
S4 (23:30):
We don't we don't all have one personality.
S3 (23:32):
Yeah. There's this expectation that if we want to do something,
we want to be the best at it, which, you know,
comes with, you know, even in sport, you know, it's
assumed that just because you want to get into a sport,
you automatically have dreams of going to the Paralympics.
S4 (23:45):
And I've.
S3 (23:46):
I've.
S4 (23:46):
Dreamt of going for a stroll, you know, when it's
raining out. I mean, and that's the thing, like, I
don't think that anybody and again not to put down
anyone who does these huge accomplishments because they are huge accomplishments,
but just being active or just being involved in the community,
you know, being being engaged, that that's something that's meaningful too.
(24:07):
And I think there is a bit of kind of
value judgment on people that, you know, it's your choice.
It's what you want to do. It's how you want
to do it. And and I think that's almost taken away.
A bit of you either have to be the best
or you get nothing. And there's those shades of grey
that the world just, just, you know, and sometimes parents
and sometimes carers and sometimes even even ourselves, we don't
(24:28):
see there's that issue of I have to be a
great representation, so I can't do anything wrong. Of course
I can. I'm human.
S3 (24:34):
So how much do you think the world's attitude affects
the attitudes of the parents of these young people? Say
a parent of a young disabled child sees a Paralympian
or some incredible person doing something and their kid isn't,
you know, up to that standard or showing great potential.
Do you think that that has the possibility or the
potential to impact the way that that parent then interacts
(24:58):
with their child.
S4 (24:59):
Sometimes people say, you know, my child cannot do this
because their vision impaired or blind, and other times they'll say,
my child can do this because they are my child.
So it happens in both ways that people can get
negatively affected, or they can get positively affected because they
believe that they believe in their child. And that's such
a strong thing to have is belief in your child.
(25:21):
I mean, I will give a personal example is I
was speaking about, you know, someone at work and they
were looking for, you know, potentially working in another place
and they were vision impaired. My father turned to me
and said, oh, wouldn't it be hard for them to
get a job somewhere else if their vision impaired? And
I just looked at him and I said, you know,
I'm vision impaired. And he goes, yeah, it'd be a different.
S2 (25:43):
Ah, yes.
S4 (25:44):
Yeah.
S3 (25:44):
Because what does that even mean?
S4 (25:46):
It means I'm his kid. I don't, I don't, I
don't exist in, in any other, in any other world.
You know, it's it's weird. I think parents say that
sometimes like that in either a positive or a negative
way that yeah, that's that's great that other people do this,
you know, the or that's the way that people are seeing.
But this is my kids that they're seeing differently.
S3 (26:06):
Do you think it's uh, the older generations that have
more of these negative attitudes than the younger ones? Like,
do you think that as parents and teachers and that
are getting younger, their attitudes are shifting like generations.
S4 (26:20):
Even in the last ten years, 100%, 100%. It's also
because people are getting more aware of technology and what
can be done. Um, so I think that that and
also don't forget that that within the last, you know,
ten years, we've gotten things like meta glasses and there's
more awareness on inclusion and, and disability and, and there's,
(26:42):
you know, there's a blind Barbie, like, there's there's going
to be a self-driving car. There are self-driving cars in America.
You know, there's there's all this technology and all this
change that people are starting to realize when it's in
the mainstream, that it also can be used for vision impairment.
Things like voiceover, audible, all those sort of things that
are coming into the mainstream, I think are affecting people's perspectives.
(27:06):
And it is interesting to see some of the younger
kids go, oh, well, why wouldn't an employer think that
that I wouldn't be able to do the job? And
it's like, because they don't understand how you do the
job and they're like, well, why wouldn't they? And it's like, well,
they may not understand how your technology works or, or
how you do things. And I feel that that is
absolutely getting better in the sense that that people are
(27:30):
more aware of how people do things rather than just going,
I don't know. I mean, and think about it, when
when we didn't have computers, we didn't have jaws, we
didn't have, you know, um, zoom text and all those
sort of things. And people were being handwritten. You had
a tape recorder, you know, maybe that was it. Now
there's so many different things that you can do with
(27:51):
so many different technologies and, you know, braille displays and
and art. It's just so much amazing stuff that's happening
that I think people are realizing, you know, I use
this in my everyday. This is something that vision impaired
or blind people can use as well. So I do
think that that is changing slowly, but I do think
(28:11):
it is changing towards a positive perspective. And also there
just is more more options.
S3 (28:17):
Do you think it's also got to do with the
fact that as the old like older institutions and attitudes
and things like that are shutting down, like more blind
people are, are being seen out and about like more
blind people are like able to interact with their community.
Therefore it's more commonplace to see them and therefore education
(28:39):
is more freely available as well.
S4 (28:41):
I think so. I think I think it's that that
isolation of, of not being able to leave without, you know,
or being in an institution where you were separated and
you were isolated from the community at large or from others.
I think that that that breakdown of isolation is very important.
(29:02):
I have recently been in a couple of events which
were highly attended by people who had canes or dogs,
and I just loved seeing that inclusion and that ability
for people to go out and enjoy concerts or shows or, or,
you know, festivals and those sort of things and feel
comfortable in order to do that. And that just makes
(29:25):
me so happy. It makes me so happy. Um, and that's,
you know, it's hard because people are putting themselves out
there in that, in that instance where, again, with the
parents who want to protect them, you might want to
protect yourself sometimes. But I've just been very, very lucky
to be involved with some events that have just been
(29:45):
fantastic lately. And, um, just having the opportunity to talk
to these people about their interests and, and their lives
and yeah, it's just been fantastic. One of them was
actually God, I'm going to out myself as a nerd here.
Voice actors play Dungeons and Dragons, and there's people from
from this show that's been going on for ten years,
came to Australia recently, and it had a very, very,
(30:06):
very diverse group of people that were there. And I
was very happy to see because you don't need sight
for vision to play Dungeons and Dragons.
S3 (30:14):
Not apparently.
S4 (30:15):
Not all your imagination. So there are a lot of
people there, and we all just sat there and listened.
Listened to people playing Dungeons and Dragons like the big
nerds we are.
S3 (30:24):
That's very cool. I also think social media has had
a lot to do with it, because, you know, you've
got people like Molly Burke and Sadie, the blind lady,
people that are out on TikTok and Facebook and like,
this is how I do this. And, you know, it's educational,
but it's also fun, you know, demystifying it.
S4 (30:41):
Yeah, it's defying stuff. Is, is is so important because
people are afraid to ask sometimes, you know, and demystify
how do you do this? How how is this actually done.
Makes it easier to have those conversations and also knowing
how you do things or trying different things. You may
be doing something for 20 years and though some some
sudden someone says, oh, this is an easy way to
(31:02):
do it.
S2 (31:03):
This kind of brings us back in a way, to
work as well. Because when I first got into the, um, employment. Yeah,
into employment from school, I'd go for a job and
somebody would, would be quite confident to say outright, I
don't think you can do this job. Mhm. Then it
would be up to me to put them right.
S4 (31:19):
Yes.
S2 (31:20):
Where things moved on after that though was we got
all politically correct and people were afraid of causing offence. Yeah.
So they did not want to seem uh as if
they were ignorant. So instead they wouldn't ask those questions.
They wouldn't state, no, I don't think you can do
this job. So, yeah, you just wouldn't get the job.
S4 (31:40):
100%. And that's, that's something that actually I've noticed as
a trend, um, again, aging myself, um, over the last
ten years that when I first started, it was very
much just say, you can do the job, just say
you can do the job. And then, you know, and
when we were talking about it, you know, it's just
so you can do the job, but that's it. And
that left a huge thing, which is, I've said I
(32:01):
can do the job, but they're afraid to ask how.
So now you have to say how you're going to
do the job. What technology are you going to use?
What what skills you're going to use. What techniques are
you going to use? What things are you going to try?
What have you done in the past? What do you
do now? It's something that that again demystifies. The more
(32:21):
that you can provide about how you do something, the
less questions they're going to have about your ability to
do it.
S3 (32:28):
My last question is this if you could say just
one thing to every influential figure in the lives of
these young people, what would it be?
S4 (32:38):
I think just aim high, because if you don't set
high expectations, they can't rise to them.
S2 (32:44):
So before we go, and this is my last question,
the title of this episode is when I Grow Up.
So what are you going to do when you grow up?
S4 (32:51):
That's a good question. I think that when I grow up,
I actually do have a plan. Um, and I it
involves me winning the lotto. Right. Um, yeah. So after
I win the lottery, I'm going to open up a
coffee slash bookstore where I get to listen to audible
books and also play with puppies. So that is what
I would like to be when I grow up. But
(33:12):
if I am very, very lucky and I am able
to to keep doing the things that I'm doing now,
I would be extremely happy if I can keep working
with people and keep learning and keep developing in this field,
and just get to see more kids grow up to
(33:32):
be fantastic adults. That would be an absolute dream come true.
S2 (33:37):
That's a wrap for this week. A big thank you
to Belinda Wilson.
S3 (33:41):
And of course, thanks to you for listening. That includes
our listeners on the Reading Radio Network. You can find
a podcast of this program, including some extra content on Apple, Spotify,
Google or your favorite podcast platform next week.
S2 (33:57):
Blind Citizens Australia was formed 50 years ago. We delve
into the beginnings of the organisation and what has been
achieved in the last five decades.
S3 (34:05):
But between now and then, please do get in touch
with the show. Whether you have experience of any of
the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio One,
or if you think there's something we should be talking about.
You never know. Your story and insight may help someone
who's dealing with something similar.
S2 (34:20):
You can email us Studio One at org. That's studio
number one at Vision Australia.
S3 (34:25):
Org or of course you can find us on all
the good social media platforms like Facebook or Instagram by
searching for VA Radio Network.
S2 (34:34):
Studio one was produced in the Adelaide studios of Vision
Australia Radio. It was made possible with the support from
the Community Broadcasting Foundation.
S3 (34:42):
Find out more at. Now I'm curious, Sam, what do
you want to do when you grow up?
S2 (34:50):
Um, I never will.
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