June 4, 2025 • 28 mins
Lizzie Eastham and Sam Rickard present Studio 1 - Vision Australia Radio’s weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view.
On this week’s show
"You don’t look Blind!”
How many times have you been told that you don’t look Blind?
Lizzie and Sam tell their own stories, while a few friends also look at the positive and negatives, while Matt Spencer shares a rather worrying story about how that simple statement can escalate.
Studio 1 welcomes any input from our listeners. If you have any experience or thoughts about issues covered in this episode or believe there is something we should be talking about.
EMAIL: studio1@visionaustralia.org or leave comment on the station’s Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/VARadioNetwork
Thank you to Matt; Anthony; Alex and Steven.
This program was made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation. Find out more at https://cbf.org.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:05):
Sitting at a bus stop waiting to catch the bus,
and back then I still had a reasonable amount. I
was using the white cane, but at night when I
would travel, I'd have a bright LED torch attached near
the bottom of the cane so that I could actually
navigate down the footpath because I could see the white ball.
And I had this woman sit down next to me
(00:25):
at the bus stop and start abusing me. You know,
you can't. You mustn't be blind. You know, blind people
don't use torches, you know? And because I sat there
and ignored her with my headphones on, she turned around. Oh,
you're not blind, but you must be deaf. That's the
nastiest one I've had. And then I had someone trip
over my cane just after I'd crossed King William. Of
all places. They've turned around, I can clearly say to
(00:46):
give me a mouthful of abuse. Realised the cane and
then switched languages, thinking ha! She's not going to understand,
but I got the gist of it.
S2 (00:53):
This is studio one on Vision Australia radio.
S3 (01:02):
Hello, I'm Sam.
S4 (01:03):
And I'm Lizzie.
S3 (01:05):
And this is Studio One, your weekly look at life
from a low vision and blind point of view here
on Vision Australia Radio.
S4 (01:10):
This week, how many times have you been told you
don't look blind?
S3 (01:14):
Matthew shares a rather worrying story about how that simple
statement can escalate.
S4 (01:19):
As we always say at this point, please do get
in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of
any of the issues covered on this week's episode of
Studio One, or if you think there's something we should
be talking about. You never know. Your story and insight
may help someone who's dealing with something similar.
S3 (01:34):
You can contact us via Email Studio one at Vision Australia. Org.
That's studio number one at Vision Australia.
S4 (01:40):
Org or of course, you can drop us a note
on the station's Facebook page by going to facebook.com Slash
Radio Network.
S5 (01:54):
They surprised when I tell them I'm totally blind because
I move around so well, they must have some preconceived
idea what totally blind is. And because apparently I move
around so well, they think I must be able to
see a little bit. you know. People amazed that I
can dress nice, that I can comb my hair. You
get that sort of stuff, you know? Do you dress yourself?
Is one unusual question I'm not sure how to take. Yes.
(02:16):
You get a whole range of things like that, which
is demoralizing and insulting for some reason. When they think
you can't see that you're totally brainless, clueless, and can't,
you know, figure out that, you know, if I've got
a shirt that feels rough, that's the black shirt, and
if I've got a shirt that feels smooth, that could
be a different color. No concept of systems and ways
around it, and that you have got a mind and
(02:36):
can make decisions on your own accord. Most of the
aggression I get is because I have a guide dog
and people want to pat it. And if I tell
him you can't pat the dog, they get really pissed
off and can't quite be aggressive or in summer time,
and they want to give the dog a drink of
water because they think the dog needs it. And when
you tell them you can't, they get highly aggressive. And
(02:57):
that occasions where I've had to get security people or
in a hotel situation, get the bar staff to have
the person removed from the premises so it can get extreme.
It's a rare occasion that people get don't like. Um,
I think it's because they perceive you as a lesser person.
They don't like being told they're wrong. And because it
(03:19):
ruins their perceptions, which are incorrect and they don't like it.
S3 (03:29):
Hello, Lizzie. What's happening?
S4 (03:31):
Well, we are doing our quarterly clean up, so, you know,
there's bleach and fumes all over the place. But apart
from that, not a lot.
S3 (03:39):
Interesting, right?
S4 (03:40):
What about you?
S3 (03:41):
Oh, I'm actually pretty flat out at the moment. I've
got another project on the go. I might talk about
it closer to the end of the show because, yeah,
it's been keeping me rather busy. But it's what happens
when you start a new radio show, so.
S4 (03:55):
Very good.
S3 (03:56):
This is, uh. What is it? Time. We're talking about
a statement that can have either positive or negative Ramifications.
And nowadays I'm sort of finding it more negative than
anything else. Um, you don't look blind. Um, what? Uh, yeah.
How do you think about it?
S4 (04:14):
Well, I know that we've approached this from the, you know,
the fashion and appearance kind of perspective, but I think
it's nice to just address this again, because it is
something that we get a lot, especially those of us
that are out and about active within the community and
travel quite independently. And yeah, we're going to hear a
few stories today from people that, because of their ability
(04:37):
to travel independently, have been told multiple times that they
don't look blind. I've had it before and I'm totally blind.
So it just it doesn't make any sense to me
why people would think that. But, um, it raises the question,
what is a blind person supposed to look like?
S3 (04:54):
And that's the thing. I mean, I don't know. I mean,
I'm trying to sort of see what is the classic
look of it. Are we supposed to be disheveled? Um,
are we supposed to be conservative? Are we supposed to
I just don't get it. Um, so for visually impaired people,
it is. Okay. All right. Not all of us carry canes.
Not all of us, uh, have a have a guide dog.
(05:16):
Not all of us wear dark glasses. Um, and, yes,
occasionally we can see a little bit. So, um, that
I think some people, though, will sort of look at
the term blind and just assume that anyone who is
legally blind is totally blind. But even I would. Yeah,
even even totally blind people cop it because apparently it's
(05:36):
it's this terrible thing that we're not supposed to sort of, um,
you know, we're not even supposed to be out and
about and doing stuff.
S4 (05:41):
I think also, we're not supposed to have confidence in ourselves.
You know what? I would love to get just like
a small sample size population in the community and ask them,
you know, people that have never been exposed to blind
people before. What do you think a blind person looks like?
And just get some sort of. Because I don't know.
I can't tell you what they're supposed to look like.
(06:03):
Like you said, are we supposed to look disheveled or
are we he's supposed to look down and out. I mean, please,
by all means, tell me what you think a typical
blind person is supposed to look like. Because that would
be news to me.
S3 (06:16):
Mhm. Now, um, I've got a fairly recent experience. It
wasn't exactly someone saying I don't look blind, but it
sort of almost escalated. So, um, me and Heidi were, uh,
waiting for a bus, and this seems to happen a
lot with public transport for some reason. So we were
waiting for a bus at, uh, the big shopping center
(06:37):
here in Adelaide. Marion Shopping Centre is the biggest, um, there. So.
And I was on my phone and there was a
bunch of likely lads sitting, uh, a seat sort of
across from us, and one of them yelled out very loudly,
why are you looking at your phone like that? What's
wrong with you?
S4 (06:54):
Really?
S3 (06:54):
Yeah. And so I ignored him, but he kept on
asking the question, and I turned around and said, what's
wrong with you? And that's when it triggered good full
on berserk mode. His friends try basically held him back.
We got on a bus and he tried to, uh, um,
basically punch the window.
S4 (07:14):
So are you serious?
S3 (07:16):
Yeah. Yeah.
S4 (07:17):
I see. Okay. Are you? Absolutely begs belief because I've
never had something escalate like that. But I've heard stories.
Not just from you, from Anthony, from other people in
the community that are like, yeah, no, people have gone
berserk at me because I've given them a smart aleck answer.
And I'm like, if you didn't know this stuff was true, like,
(07:38):
if you didn't know these people, you'd never think that
it would happen. You'd think it's just a movie. It's absurd.
S3 (07:44):
Well, we're not supposed to talk back and we'll be
dealing with Matthew's issue, um, in a few minutes or whenever. Yeah.
So if someone's sort of, uh, um, says something we're
not supposed to answer back. We're supposed to be helpless.
So when we prove that we're not, that's when they
get aggressive. Because how can you look down at somebody
(08:07):
when they answer back? That's the way I see it anyway,
and especially when you're dealing. And this guy was, I think,
high on something as well. So yeah, I mean it's um,
disability is um, like that in some people's minds. That's
the way I see it anyway.
S4 (08:24):
Yeah. I think it goes back to that whole thing
of looking blind and being helpless. There is a certain
stigma in society that people with disabilities, like you said,
aren't allowed to be confident or aren't allowed to be
sure of themselves as able bodied people. I've had experiences
(08:44):
and this goes back to the the fashion and the
appearance kind of side of it, where I've been in
the city with Lacey, my seeing eye dog, and I've
gone to an appointment or something. So I've dressed up
really nicely and I've put on makeup and my hair
is nice and, you know, I've got the manicured nails
and all that. And yeah, I've been on a bus
(09:04):
and I've either gotten one of two responses, and the
one one that I can cope with is people asking, oh,
how do you do that when you know you're blind?
How do you manage to coordinate colors and do your makeup?
I can understand that, and I can reply to that
and genuinely comes from a place of wanting to know,
like curiosity. But when people have come up to me
and said, oh, you can't be blind because you're wearing makeup,
(09:26):
or you can't be blind because you dress too pretty
or whatever, which I've literally had people say, then there's
no way of coming back from that. You either have
to answer back or completely ignore them because there's no
educating them because they don't want to know something. They
are stating what they believe to be fact.
S3 (09:43):
Well, I'm just going to play a clip from our
own show, which is also, I think, part of the problem.
And we sort of addressed it in a way because
it was a joke. It was when we were talking with, uh,
Sean and uh, uh, yes, I'd started with me simply saying, well,
he's blind. At least he says he's blind.
S4 (10:01):
I think he's just saying that so he can get
the pension, though.
S6 (10:04):
Yeah. yeah. Much like myself.
S7 (10:06):
Are you giving away my secrets?
S6 (10:07):
Oh, no.
S7 (10:08):
Ah! Rude!
S6 (10:09):
Sorry.
S3 (10:12):
So what it comes down to is. And I think
you got some current affairs shows to blame for this one.
Some times people assume that it's a good life to
be on a pension. Sometimes they assume that, yes, we
are faking it because it must be this terrific thing
(10:34):
to be getting all these benefits. But, well, I don't
think they understand the negative side of it. And to
best of my knowledge, there's no black market in doctors
making people disabled. I mean, have you heard anything about that?
S4 (10:51):
Um, well, I mean, my mum always makes the joke
to people that the only reason I pretend I'm blind
is so I can get the pension. But why would
I go through a life of discrimination and misconception, judgement
and Patronising talk just to get a pension. I mean,
it's ridiculous, but we have Steven with us. Sorry.
S3 (11:10):
Oh. Steven's arrived. Well, he can come and have a
have a chat with us as well. He's been busy cleaning,
has he? Has she been working you hard enough?
S8 (11:17):
Lizzie has been cracking the whip. Don't worry.
S3 (11:19):
Ah, well. And that's that. I'm not really asking about
your personal life, but anyway.
S9 (11:24):
Yeah. Wow.
S3 (11:25):
So, Steven, this week we're talking about the statement. You
don't look blind. I think everybody's got stories on this, uh,
at some stage or another, both positive and negative. So
let's start with the positive. Has anybody said it in
a nice way to you?
S8 (11:40):
Um, no. Not particularly. I haven't had any positive comments
about not looking blind. No.
S3 (11:46):
What about the negative side, though? Have you had it
thrown back at you as an accusation?
S8 (11:49):
Yes, yes I have. I was at a supermarket once,
and I had to ask a lady to read out
the price of something, because it was right down the bottom,
and she turned around to me, and she pretty much
had a go at me saying, you don't look blind.
You're probably just doing it because you want to get
the blind pension or whatever. And she looked at me
and said, how can you afford to buy that sort
(12:11):
of stuff if you're blind? You know, you shouldn't be
buying that sort of food or or alcohol or whatever
if you're on a blind pension, because I'm basically paying
for it for you. And then she went on to
say that I instead of asking her for help, I
should have had a carer with me or something like that.
S3 (12:27):
Was this someone from the public or was this someone
behind the counter?
S8 (12:30):
No, this was someone from the public.
S3 (12:32):
Okay.
S8 (12:33):
I just just recently, uh, yesterday, I was asking somebody
behind the counter, and I had my cane with me.
I was very visual, visually blind or visually impaired? Rather
very visually impaired. Okay. Is that even a word? Well,
it is now. Yeah. And, um, I asked this, um, person.
I was working behind the counter. He was like, at this, um,
(12:53):
one of those pop up, uh, key cutting, uh, counters, like,
in the, uh, in Westfield. And I was asking him if.
Because I didn't realise what it was. I said, uh,
do you fix phones? And he turned around and looked
at me and said, do I look like a fixed phones?
I said, dude, I'm visually impaired. And um, if you
want a phone repair place, can you tell me where
it is? And he gave me the dirtiest look and
(13:14):
he pointed across the shopping center. He said, over that way.
S3 (13:17):
No, I love that one. Yes.
S8 (13:19):
I think, uh, well, thanks very much. Wait, that's.
S3 (13:21):
The other one that I often get is, um. Where
is such and such? And they go over there. Uh,
and so. Yeah. Thanks. And then just sort of go
and ask somebody else. That's really the only thing to do.
S4 (13:33):
We have been out before, and someone like Steven will
go and get me a cup of coffee. If we're
sitting at a cafe or whatever, he'll usually go up
to order. And I've had somebody ask me, is he
your carer? And I'm like, no, he's my husband. And
they absolutely cannot believe that I could possibly have a husband.
S3 (13:53):
It yes, it speaks absolute volumes. Anyway, now let's hear
from Matthew, who also had some interesting experiences on public transport.
We will come back and have a bit of a
chat about it just a bit later.
S2 (14:12):
This is studio One on Vision Australia radio.
S10 (14:21):
Hello Sam.
S3 (14:22):
I put the call out on Facebook and a few
other media to ask. Okay, what do you think when
someone says you don't look blind? And you were the
first to respond, now it could be a positive and
a negative as far as I'm concerned. I mean, what
do you think?
S11 (14:35):
Oh, absolutely. Like, I've had experiences on both sides of
the on the fence on that one.
S3 (14:43):
So yeah, I mean, I had people at work sometimes
and they've forgotten I'm blind and they're throwing stuff to
me and wondered why I haven't caught it and things
like that. So I take that as a kind of
a compliment. But there's a there's a darker side to it,
isn't there? And you've got a little bit of a
story to tell. How long ago did this happen to you? Uh, probably.
S11 (15:01):
About a month ago, actually. So not that long ago. Um,
So probably just before Easter, thereabouts.
S3 (15:08):
You were you were saying this was on public transport?
S11 (15:10):
Yes, on public transport. I was, uh, my story goes
that I was, uh, catching a bus with my lovely
wife from my local train station to the local shopping centre,
and we had an Aboriginal couple. Um, I'm not going
to rip on the Aboriginals because they've gone through enough,
but this, uh, young, youngish, more, um, Aboriginal gentleman, uh,
(15:36):
saw me and I was on my phone because I
was checking something out. But of course, like most vision
impaired people or people with low vision like myself, I
have to have the, um, screen to my face so
I can read what's going on, even though I've magnified
it and all the rest of it. So I don't
use the zoom feature. I use the larger text on
my iPhone. So I think, I think.
S3 (15:56):
We, I think we all do that. I mean, otherwise
you risk people being able to look over your shoulder
and read what you're doing. So that's my, my, my
philosophy for that too.
S11 (16:04):
Anyway, so I'm catching the bus with my lovely wife
to the local shopping centre and I was just checking.
I can't remember. I will say message, a text message
or something. And this, uh, gentleman and his wife got
onto the bus, uh, a little, uh, between the train
station and the shopping centre and then said, well, you're
(16:24):
not blind. And I'm going like, well, uh, that's not
for your place to say anything about that. Um, and
he goes like, well, you can't be blind because you're
using your phone and blind people can't use phones. And
I'm like, well, you're sadly you're ignorant of that fact.
(16:47):
And or that's in my head. I'm not actually saying
that to him, because I'm hoping that he would understand
if I said those kinds of words. Again, I'm not
disrespecting all Aboriginal people, but I don't think this gentleman
would have. And, um, basically he goes like, you need
to stand up and find front another seat. And I'm like, well,
I'm sitting here because I'm allowed to sit here because
(17:09):
the seats are allocated for those people that are elderly
or disabled or people with prams. And this gentleman, yes, um,
goes like, well, I want to sit with my wife
or my, my girl or whatever he said. And I'm
going like, well, I'm entitled to sit here. And my
wife started speaking up and goes like, like he's blind
(17:33):
and started defending me publicly, defending me in front of
everyone that was on the bus at the time without
yelling or screaming or anything. And unfortunately, this gentleman decided
to use some colorful language, which I'm not going to
repeat here, but it was basically to the effect of like,
you can't be blind because blind people have sunglasses on
(17:54):
and they use canes and they have dogs and things
like that. And you obviously don't have sunglasses. Okay. Yes,
my glasses tint because that's what I've asked for. Um,
so you could not him. So I would say that
you could see my eyes, but according to his, um, ignorance,
(18:14):
he was basically saying, I don't look bad because I
can use a phone and whatever else.
S3 (18:20):
It's astonishing when people just, um, I don't know where
their ignorance is. A badge, really? That's what it comes
down to. It's like, okay, I don't think this is
the case. So it's, um, you know, this is this
is my reality, so you've got to live with it. Um, yeah.
How did that end? I mean, what ended up happening?
S11 (18:39):
Uh, well, the bus driver ended up actually stopping the bus. Um,
he physically stopped the bus and said, no, we can't
have you guys fighting on the bus. I'm like, I'm
not fighting. I'm just sitting here. I'm doing my part
to ignore you as much as possible. And, uh, the
bus driver said, well, I'm not moving the bus until
(19:02):
something happens. I said, well, I will move if he
apologises for the the verbal stoush that he or verbal
diarrhea that he expressed. I will get up and I'll
and then I'll go and he goes like, well I'm
not going to do that. Well I'm I'm staying here
until something happens. So basically the bus was delayed for
(19:22):
I can't say how long because I was actually watching
my phone at that time. So I would say at
least two minutes. And he goes like, well, sorry. Very
begrudgingly said sorry, this isn't fine. And then I said
to my wife, um, can you please find another chair
for us so we can sit down? So my wife
guided me to another chair and we sat down, and
(19:45):
then he basically it was only about 2 or 3
chairs away from the front where I was originally sitting,
so I could still hear him, and he was still
holding his breath, calling me those names that he called me,
and a few new ones. And then the bus driver
carried on driving down the bus. He got off the
bus at the, um, the shopping centre, which sadly was
(20:07):
the same place that these this couple got off it
as well, got off the bus and then it was
on again and my wife lost her crap and basically
said like, leave him alone, he is boring. Blah blah
blah and all the rest of it. Like really sticking
up for me as much as she could. I'm grateful
that she did like like she didn't have to. It's
(20:30):
the first. And this is the thing is, the first
time that she's actually released, the lioness, like, really got
into somebody to go like, this is my this is
my partner, my husband, my spouse, and basically tried her
best to tell this gentleman, um, a new one. And
(20:52):
he basically we have more people gather around to watch this.
And eventually he walked off with his wife and whatever
or whatever and did that. And, uh, I'm going like,
it's just not called for like, oh, like people go like, well,
(21:13):
what was that about? Because I didn't know. Because they
didn't know how long it had been going for. And
my wife goes, like they say, my husband's not blind.
He wears a vision impaired persons badge. And I showed
the people who go, like, if you're not sure I'm
blind or not, like, like they I took off my
glasses and I showed them that I've got no vision
(21:34):
now in my right eye. It's completely clouded. It's completely opaque.
So I can't see out of that and try to
explain quickly without going into gory details about my vision
loss in my left eye. And that's deteriorating too. And
most people were like, right, well, like, um, if it
happens again, like we're here to try to back you up,
(21:55):
I'm like, well, thank goodness it hasn't happened again. But
just it was very unnerving. And my wife just she
just collapsed. And I'm just going like. Well, all I
could do is love and support and just make sure
that she was okay. Get her up, get her a
drink from somewhere, and, uh. Yeah, it's it's horrendous.
S3 (22:16):
Sounds. Sounds disturbing. Is this. I mean, has anything like
this happened to you before?
S11 (22:20):
Well, the last time, of course, was when I was, um.
Back when? When we did the talk of dope at
my dog. Oh, yeah. On the podcast, way back when, uh, when, um,
a gentleman, basically, who had some mental issues was basically
saying that when I had my guide dog, who has
now since passed, um, basically said like, are you like, uh,
(22:43):
like you're treating that dog like rubbish, like that dog
should be free. It needs to be out in the
wild or whatever he said at the time. And so
I've had a few times, unfortunately.
S3 (22:54):
I mean, I don't know about you, but I mean,
I tend to prefer to go incognito because I don't
get these things. But I mean, unfortunately, I can't avoid
it when I'm sort of looking at my phone and
things like that. It's it's unfortunate that that happens. But anyway,
thank you for sharing your story. Uh, Matt. And, um, well,
may you, uh, not look blind?
S11 (23:14):
Yeah, well, I'll try not to, but it's a bit
hard when you need a Braille mirror to show yourself
every morning.
S3 (23:26):
The problem? Well, it's sort of problematic. I'm trying to
find the right words to go with. It is because
the gentleman in question was indigenous. And in Western Australia.
I noticed this when I was living there. Uh, the
indigenous people are not exactly treated well even to this day. There's, uh,
a lot of racism going around. I know friends of
(23:48):
mine who have moved to Perth from Darwin, for example,
and they've said this is the first time they've ever
encountered true racism. So you've got otherwise disadvantaged people who
are being treated rather badly with a chip on their shoulder,
the size of Tasmania or thereabouts. So the first thing
(24:08):
that often and we'll find this, um, when people are
having problems with, uh, this kind of thing, they'll see
somebody else who is more vulnerable than they are. And
it's an open invitation to bully somebody. That's the way
I sort of see it. I don't know if you've
encountered the same issue. I mean, have have you encountered
the same problem from people who, in theory, should know better?
S4 (24:31):
Yeah, actually, I have definitely. I would have to say
younger people should know better. Um, because there's a lot
of education going on in the schools today about people
with guide dogs and blind people. I mean, guide dogs
here in SA basically do this thing all the time
where they take dogs to school. And yet I've had
teenagers and younger people accused me of basically, uh, faking
(24:57):
my vision so I could get a dog. Yeah. And
it's like. But do you know better? You know why
these dogs are needed? And I don't know what makes
you think that I would be faking my disability? I mean,
I've had old people patronize me and and things like that, but, um,
those were the only ones that I could say should
know better. I've never had indigenous people or people of
(25:17):
different race pick on me. Um, I've never had anything escalate,
so I'm quite lucky, I think. I don't want to
say it's because I'm a female, because females definitely get
it a lot as well. But the people with the
most absurd stories in, in my point of view, that
the ones that I've heard are all blokes, like, they
just seem to attract more aggression, which is not good.
S3 (25:38):
I'd suggest that being a woman, it would be more
people trying to take advantage, because that's the way they
see the female role.
S4 (25:47):
Oh, definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Yes. I've had people, um, definitely
try to lead me astray. You know, I've been touched
inappropriately on public transport. I've had people. I've had somebody
follow me home. Yeah, again. I think you're right, because
(26:07):
I am seen as more vulnerable and because I'm a
small female, people tend to. Yeah, like you said, take advantage.
So generally when I get the you don't look blind statement,
it is more on the positive like, oh you don't
look blind. How do you do that more than the negative.
And if I do get the negative, I mean, I,
like other people, have stood up for me before, so
(26:30):
I haven't had anything like that escalate. But yeah, I've
definitely had my share of scary incidents.
S3 (26:35):
Well, with that slightly dark ending, that is a wrap
for this week. A big thank you to Anthony, to Alex,
to Steven and Matt.
S4 (26:46):
And of course, thanks to you for listening. That includes
our listeners on the Reading Radio Network. As usual, you
can find a podcast of this program on Apple, Spotify,
Google or your favorite podcast platform.
S3 (26:59):
Next week, have you got any makeup tips? I don't, but.
S4 (27:02):
I don't know, Sam. you'd look really good in a
nice shade of red lipstick. Anyway, luckily for our listeners,
we'll be catching up with Storm Menzies from Bystorm Beauty
and some of our ladies. Yeah, definitely just the ladies
will share their makeup tips.
S3 (27:18):
But between now and then, please do get in touch
with the show. Whether you have experience of any of
the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio One,
or if you think there's something we should be talking about.
You never know. Your story and insight may help somebody
else who is dealing with something similar.
S4 (27:33):
You can contact us via email at studio One at
Vision Australia. Org. That's studio number one at Vision Australia.
Or of course, you can find us on all of
the social media platforms like Facebook or Instagram by searching
for Viva Radio Network. We want to hear from you.
S3 (27:52):
This program was made possible with the support of the
Community Broadcasting Foundation.
S4 (27:56):
Find out more at.
Sitting at a bus stop waiting to catch the bus,
and back then I still had a reasonable amount. I
was using the white cane, but at night when I
would travel, I'd have a bright LED torch attached near
the bottom of the cane so that I could actually
navigate down the footpath because I could see the white ball.
And I had this woman sit down next to me
(00:25):
at the bus stop and start abusing me. You know,
you can't. You mustn't be blind. You know, blind people
don't use torches, you know? And because I sat there
and ignored her with my headphones on, she turned around. Oh,
you're not blind, but you must be deaf. That's the
nastiest one I've had. And then I had someone trip
over my cane just after I'd crossed King William. Of
all places. They've turned around, I can clearly say to
(00:46):
give me a mouthful of abuse. Realised the cane and
then switched languages, thinking ha! She's not going to understand,
but I got the gist of it.
S2 (00:53):
This is studio one on Vision Australia radio.
S3 (01:02):
Hello, I'm Sam.
S4 (01:03):
And I'm Lizzie.
S3 (01:05):
And this is Studio One, your weekly look at life
from a low vision and blind point of view here
on Vision Australia Radio.
S4 (01:10):
This week, how many times have you been told you
don't look blind?
S3 (01:14):
Matthew shares a rather worrying story about how that simple
statement can escalate.
S4 (01:19):
As we always say at this point, please do get
in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of
any of the issues covered on this week's episode of
Studio One, or if you think there's something we should
be talking about. You never know. Your story and insight
may help someone who's dealing with something similar.
S3 (01:34):
You can contact us via Email Studio one at Vision Australia. Org.
That's studio number one at Vision Australia.
S4 (01:40):
Org or of course, you can drop us a note
on the station's Facebook page by going to facebook.com Slash
Radio Network.
S5 (01:54):
They surprised when I tell them I'm totally blind because
I move around so well, they must have some preconceived
idea what totally blind is. And because apparently I move
around so well, they think I must be able to
see a little bit. you know. People amazed that I
can dress nice, that I can comb my hair. You
get that sort of stuff, you know? Do you dress yourself?
Is one unusual question I'm not sure how to take. Yes.
(02:16):
You get a whole range of things like that, which
is demoralizing and insulting for some reason. When they think
you can't see that you're totally brainless, clueless, and can't,
you know, figure out that, you know, if I've got
a shirt that feels rough, that's the black shirt, and
if I've got a shirt that feels smooth, that could
be a different color. No concept of systems and ways
around it, and that you have got a mind and
(02:36):
can make decisions on your own accord. Most of the
aggression I get is because I have a guide dog
and people want to pat it. And if I tell
him you can't pat the dog, they get really pissed
off and can't quite be aggressive or in summer time,
and they want to give the dog a drink of
water because they think the dog needs it. And when
you tell them you can't, they get highly aggressive. And
(02:57):
that occasions where I've had to get security people or
in a hotel situation, get the bar staff to have
the person removed from the premises so it can get extreme.
It's a rare occasion that people get don't like. Um,
I think it's because they perceive you as a lesser person.
They don't like being told they're wrong. And because it
(03:19):
ruins their perceptions, which are incorrect and they don't like it.
S3 (03:29):
Hello, Lizzie. What's happening?
S4 (03:31):
Well, we are doing our quarterly clean up, so, you know,
there's bleach and fumes all over the place. But apart
from that, not a lot.
S3 (03:39):
Interesting, right?
S4 (03:40):
What about you?
S3 (03:41):
Oh, I'm actually pretty flat out at the moment. I've
got another project on the go. I might talk about
it closer to the end of the show because, yeah,
it's been keeping me rather busy. But it's what happens
when you start a new radio show, so.
S4 (03:55):
Very good.
S3 (03:56):
This is, uh. What is it? Time. We're talking about
a statement that can have either positive or negative Ramifications.
And nowadays I'm sort of finding it more negative than
anything else. Um, you don't look blind. Um, what? Uh, yeah.
How do you think about it?
S4 (04:14):
Well, I know that we've approached this from the, you know,
the fashion and appearance kind of perspective, but I think
it's nice to just address this again, because it is
something that we get a lot, especially those of us
that are out and about active within the community and
travel quite independently. And yeah, we're going to hear a
few stories today from people that, because of their ability
(04:37):
to travel independently, have been told multiple times that they
don't look blind. I've had it before and I'm totally blind.
So it just it doesn't make any sense to me
why people would think that. But, um, it raises the question,
what is a blind person supposed to look like?
S3 (04:54):
And that's the thing. I mean, I don't know. I mean,
I'm trying to sort of see what is the classic
look of it. Are we supposed to be disheveled? Um,
are we supposed to be conservative? Are we supposed to
I just don't get it. Um, so for visually impaired people,
it is. Okay. All right. Not all of us carry canes.
Not all of us, uh, have a have a guide dog.
(05:16):
Not all of us wear dark glasses. Um, and, yes,
occasionally we can see a little bit. So, um, that
I think some people, though, will sort of look at
the term blind and just assume that anyone who is
legally blind is totally blind. But even I would. Yeah,
even even totally blind people cop it because apparently it's
(05:36):
it's this terrible thing that we're not supposed to sort of, um,
you know, we're not even supposed to be out and
about and doing stuff.
S4 (05:41):
I think also, we're not supposed to have confidence in ourselves.
You know what? I would love to get just like
a small sample size population in the community and ask them,
you know, people that have never been exposed to blind
people before. What do you think a blind person looks like?
And just get some sort of. Because I don't know.
I can't tell you what they're supposed to look like.
(06:03):
Like you said, are we supposed to look disheveled or
are we he's supposed to look down and out. I mean, please,
by all means, tell me what you think a typical
blind person is supposed to look like. Because that would
be news to me.
S3 (06:16):
Mhm. Now, um, I've got a fairly recent experience. It
wasn't exactly someone saying I don't look blind, but it
sort of almost escalated. So, um, me and Heidi were, uh,
waiting for a bus, and this seems to happen a
lot with public transport for some reason. So we were
waiting for a bus at, uh, the big shopping center
(06:37):
here in Adelaide. Marion Shopping Centre is the biggest, um, there. So.
And I was on my phone and there was a
bunch of likely lads sitting, uh, a seat sort of
across from us, and one of them yelled out very loudly,
why are you looking at your phone like that? What's
wrong with you?
S4 (06:54):
Really?
S3 (06:54):
Yeah. And so I ignored him, but he kept on
asking the question, and I turned around and said, what's
wrong with you? And that's when it triggered good full
on berserk mode. His friends try basically held him back.
We got on a bus and he tried to, uh, um,
basically punch the window.
S4 (07:14):
So are you serious?
S3 (07:16):
Yeah. Yeah.
S4 (07:17):
I see. Okay. Are you? Absolutely begs belief because I've
never had something escalate like that. But I've heard stories.
Not just from you, from Anthony, from other people in
the community that are like, yeah, no, people have gone
berserk at me because I've given them a smart aleck answer.
And I'm like, if you didn't know this stuff was true, like,
(07:38):
if you didn't know these people, you'd never think that
it would happen. You'd think it's just a movie. It's absurd.
S3 (07:44):
Well, we're not supposed to talk back and we'll be
dealing with Matthew's issue, um, in a few minutes or whenever. Yeah.
So if someone's sort of, uh, um, says something we're
not supposed to answer back. We're supposed to be helpless.
So when we prove that we're not, that's when they
get aggressive. Because how can you look down at somebody
(08:07):
when they answer back? That's the way I see it anyway,
and especially when you're dealing. And this guy was, I think,
high on something as well. So yeah, I mean it's um,
disability is um, like that in some people's minds. That's
the way I see it anyway.
S4 (08:24):
Yeah. I think it goes back to that whole thing
of looking blind and being helpless. There is a certain
stigma in society that people with disabilities, like you said,
aren't allowed to be confident or aren't allowed to be
sure of themselves as able bodied people. I've had experiences
(08:44):
and this goes back to the the fashion and the
appearance kind of side of it, where I've been in
the city with Lacey, my seeing eye dog, and I've
gone to an appointment or something. So I've dressed up
really nicely and I've put on makeup and my hair
is nice and, you know, I've got the manicured nails
and all that. And yeah, I've been on a bus
(09:04):
and I've either gotten one of two responses, and the
one one that I can cope with is people asking, oh,
how do you do that when you know you're blind?
How do you manage to coordinate colors and do your makeup?
I can understand that, and I can reply to that
and genuinely comes from a place of wanting to know,
like curiosity. But when people have come up to me
and said, oh, you can't be blind because you're wearing makeup,
(09:26):
or you can't be blind because you dress too pretty
or whatever, which I've literally had people say, then there's
no way of coming back from that. You either have
to answer back or completely ignore them because there's no
educating them because they don't want to know something. They
are stating what they believe to be fact.
S3 (09:43):
Well, I'm just going to play a clip from our
own show, which is also, I think, part of the problem.
And we sort of addressed it in a way because
it was a joke. It was when we were talking with, uh,
Sean and uh, uh, yes, I'd started with me simply saying, well,
he's blind. At least he says he's blind.
S4 (10:01):
I think he's just saying that so he can get
the pension, though.
S6 (10:04):
Yeah. yeah. Much like myself.
S7 (10:06):
Are you giving away my secrets?
S6 (10:07):
Oh, no.
S7 (10:08):
Ah! Rude!
S6 (10:09):
Sorry.
S3 (10:12):
So what it comes down to is. And I think
you got some current affairs shows to blame for this one.
Some times people assume that it's a good life to
be on a pension. Sometimes they assume that, yes, we
are faking it because it must be this terrific thing
(10:34):
to be getting all these benefits. But, well, I don't
think they understand the negative side of it. And to
best of my knowledge, there's no black market in doctors
making people disabled. I mean, have you heard anything about that?
S4 (10:51):
Um, well, I mean, my mum always makes the joke
to people that the only reason I pretend I'm blind
is so I can get the pension. But why would
I go through a life of discrimination and misconception, judgement
and Patronising talk just to get a pension. I mean,
it's ridiculous, but we have Steven with us. Sorry.
S3 (11:10):
Oh. Steven's arrived. Well, he can come and have a
have a chat with us as well. He's been busy cleaning,
has he? Has she been working you hard enough?
S8 (11:17):
Lizzie has been cracking the whip. Don't worry.
S3 (11:19):
Ah, well. And that's that. I'm not really asking about
your personal life, but anyway.
S9 (11:24):
Yeah. Wow.
S3 (11:25):
So, Steven, this week we're talking about the statement. You
don't look blind. I think everybody's got stories on this, uh,
at some stage or another, both positive and negative. So
let's start with the positive. Has anybody said it in
a nice way to you?
S8 (11:40):
Um, no. Not particularly. I haven't had any positive comments
about not looking blind. No.
S3 (11:46):
What about the negative side, though? Have you had it
thrown back at you as an accusation?
S8 (11:49):
Yes, yes I have. I was at a supermarket once,
and I had to ask a lady to read out
the price of something, because it was right down the bottom,
and she turned around to me, and she pretty much
had a go at me saying, you don't look blind.
You're probably just doing it because you want to get
the blind pension or whatever. And she looked at me
and said, how can you afford to buy that sort
(12:11):
of stuff if you're blind? You know, you shouldn't be
buying that sort of food or or alcohol or whatever
if you're on a blind pension, because I'm basically paying
for it for you. And then she went on to
say that I instead of asking her for help, I
should have had a carer with me or something like that.
S3 (12:27):
Was this someone from the public or was this someone
behind the counter?
S8 (12:30):
No, this was someone from the public.
S3 (12:32):
Okay.
S8 (12:33):
I just just recently, uh, yesterday, I was asking somebody
behind the counter, and I had my cane with me.
I was very visual, visually blind or visually impaired? Rather
very visually impaired. Okay. Is that even a word? Well,
it is now. Yeah. And, um, I asked this, um, person.
I was working behind the counter. He was like, at this, um,
(12:53):
one of those pop up, uh, key cutting, uh, counters, like,
in the, uh, in Westfield. And I was asking him if.
Because I didn't realise what it was. I said, uh,
do you fix phones? And he turned around and looked
at me and said, do I look like a fixed phones?
I said, dude, I'm visually impaired. And um, if you
want a phone repair place, can you tell me where
it is? And he gave me the dirtiest look and
(13:14):
he pointed across the shopping center. He said, over that way.
S3 (13:17):
No, I love that one. Yes.
S8 (13:19):
I think, uh, well, thanks very much. Wait, that's.
S3 (13:21):
The other one that I often get is, um. Where
is such and such? And they go over there. Uh,
and so. Yeah. Thanks. And then just sort of go
and ask somebody else. That's really the only thing to do.
S4 (13:33):
We have been out before, and someone like Steven will
go and get me a cup of coffee. If we're
sitting at a cafe or whatever, he'll usually go up
to order. And I've had somebody ask me, is he
your carer? And I'm like, no, he's my husband. And
they absolutely cannot believe that I could possibly have a husband.
S3 (13:53):
It yes, it speaks absolute volumes. Anyway, now let's hear
from Matthew, who also had some interesting experiences on public transport.
We will come back and have a bit of a
chat about it just a bit later.
S2 (14:12):
This is studio One on Vision Australia radio.
S10 (14:21):
Hello Sam.
S3 (14:22):
I put the call out on Facebook and a few
other media to ask. Okay, what do you think when
someone says you don't look blind? And you were the
first to respond, now it could be a positive and
a negative as far as I'm concerned. I mean, what
do you think?
S11 (14:35):
Oh, absolutely. Like, I've had experiences on both sides of
the on the fence on that one.
S3 (14:43):
So yeah, I mean, I had people at work sometimes
and they've forgotten I'm blind and they're throwing stuff to
me and wondered why I haven't caught it and things
like that. So I take that as a kind of
a compliment. But there's a there's a darker side to it,
isn't there? And you've got a little bit of a
story to tell. How long ago did this happen to you? Uh, probably.
S11 (15:01):
About a month ago, actually. So not that long ago. Um,
So probably just before Easter, thereabouts.
S3 (15:08):
You were you were saying this was on public transport?
S11 (15:10):
Yes, on public transport. I was, uh, my story goes
that I was, uh, catching a bus with my lovely
wife from my local train station to the local shopping centre,
and we had an Aboriginal couple. Um, I'm not going
to rip on the Aboriginals because they've gone through enough,
but this, uh, young, youngish, more, um, Aboriginal gentleman, uh,
(15:36):
saw me and I was on my phone because I
was checking something out. But of course, like most vision
impaired people or people with low vision like myself, I
have to have the, um, screen to my face so
I can read what's going on, even though I've magnified
it and all the rest of it. So I don't
use the zoom feature. I use the larger text on
my iPhone. So I think, I think.
S3 (15:56):
We, I think we all do that. I mean, otherwise
you risk people being able to look over your shoulder
and read what you're doing. So that's my, my, my
philosophy for that too.
S11 (16:04):
Anyway, so I'm catching the bus with my lovely wife
to the local shopping centre and I was just checking.
I can't remember. I will say message, a text message
or something. And this, uh, gentleman and his wife got
onto the bus, uh, a little, uh, between the train
station and the shopping centre and then said, well, you're
(16:24):
not blind. And I'm going like, well, uh, that's not
for your place to say anything about that. Um, and
he goes like, well, you can't be blind because you're
using your phone and blind people can't use phones. And
I'm like, well, you're sadly you're ignorant of that fact.
(16:47):
And or that's in my head. I'm not actually saying
that to him, because I'm hoping that he would understand
if I said those kinds of words. Again, I'm not
disrespecting all Aboriginal people, but I don't think this gentleman
would have. And, um, basically he goes like, you need
to stand up and find front another seat. And I'm like, well,
I'm sitting here because I'm allowed to sit here because
(17:09):
the seats are allocated for those people that are elderly
or disabled or people with prams. And this gentleman, yes, um,
goes like, well, I want to sit with my wife
or my, my girl or whatever he said. And I'm
going like, well, I'm entitled to sit here. And my
wife started speaking up and goes like, like he's blind
(17:33):
and started defending me publicly, defending me in front of
everyone that was on the bus at the time without
yelling or screaming or anything. And unfortunately, this gentleman decided
to use some colorful language, which I'm not going to
repeat here, but it was basically to the effect of like,
you can't be blind because blind people have sunglasses on
(17:54):
and they use canes and they have dogs and things
like that. And you obviously don't have sunglasses. Okay. Yes,
my glasses tint because that's what I've asked for. Um,
so you could not him. So I would say that
you could see my eyes, but according to his, um, ignorance,
(18:14):
he was basically saying, I don't look bad because I
can use a phone and whatever else.
S3 (18:20):
It's astonishing when people just, um, I don't know where
their ignorance is. A badge, really? That's what it comes
down to. It's like, okay, I don't think this is
the case. So it's, um, you know, this is this
is my reality, so you've got to live with it. Um, yeah.
How did that end? I mean, what ended up happening?
S11 (18:39):
Uh, well, the bus driver ended up actually stopping the bus. Um,
he physically stopped the bus and said, no, we can't
have you guys fighting on the bus. I'm like, I'm
not fighting. I'm just sitting here. I'm doing my part
to ignore you as much as possible. And, uh, the
bus driver said, well, I'm not moving the bus until
(19:02):
something happens. I said, well, I will move if he
apologises for the the verbal stoush that he or verbal
diarrhea that he expressed. I will get up and I'll
and then I'll go and he goes like, well I'm
not going to do that. Well I'm I'm staying here
until something happens. So basically the bus was delayed for
(19:22):
I can't say how long because I was actually watching
my phone at that time. So I would say at
least two minutes. And he goes like, well, sorry. Very
begrudgingly said sorry, this isn't fine. And then I said
to my wife, um, can you please find another chair
for us so we can sit down? So my wife
guided me to another chair and we sat down, and
(19:45):
then he basically it was only about 2 or 3
chairs away from the front where I was originally sitting,
so I could still hear him, and he was still
holding his breath, calling me those names that he called me,
and a few new ones. And then the bus driver
carried on driving down the bus. He got off the
bus at the, um, the shopping centre, which sadly was
(20:07):
the same place that these this couple got off it
as well, got off the bus and then it was
on again and my wife lost her crap and basically
said like, leave him alone, he is boring. Blah blah
blah and all the rest of it. Like really sticking
up for me as much as she could. I'm grateful
that she did like like she didn't have to. It's
(20:30):
the first. And this is the thing is, the first
time that she's actually released, the lioness, like, really got
into somebody to go like, this is my this is
my partner, my husband, my spouse, and basically tried her
best to tell this gentleman, um, a new one. And
(20:52):
he basically we have more people gather around to watch this.
And eventually he walked off with his wife and whatever
or whatever and did that. And, uh, I'm going like,
it's just not called for like, oh, like people go like, well,
(21:13):
what was that about? Because I didn't know. Because they
didn't know how long it had been going for. And
my wife goes, like they say, my husband's not blind.
He wears a vision impaired persons badge. And I showed
the people who go, like, if you're not sure I'm
blind or not, like, like they I took off my
glasses and I showed them that I've got no vision
(21:34):
now in my right eye. It's completely clouded. It's completely opaque.
So I can't see out of that and try to
explain quickly without going into gory details about my vision
loss in my left eye. And that's deteriorating too. And
most people were like, right, well, like, um, if it
happens again, like we're here to try to back you up,
(21:55):
I'm like, well, thank goodness it hasn't happened again. But
just it was very unnerving. And my wife just she
just collapsed. And I'm just going like. Well, all I
could do is love and support and just make sure
that she was okay. Get her up, get her a
drink from somewhere, and, uh. Yeah, it's it's horrendous.
S3 (22:16):
Sounds. Sounds disturbing. Is this. I mean, has anything like
this happened to you before?
S11 (22:20):
Well, the last time, of course, was when I was, um.
Back when? When we did the talk of dope at
my dog. Oh, yeah. On the podcast, way back when, uh, when, um,
a gentleman, basically, who had some mental issues was basically
saying that when I had my guide dog, who has
now since passed, um, basically said like, are you like, uh,
(22:43):
like you're treating that dog like rubbish, like that dog
should be free. It needs to be out in the
wild or whatever he said at the time. And so
I've had a few times, unfortunately.
S3 (22:54):
I mean, I don't know about you, but I mean,
I tend to prefer to go incognito because I don't
get these things. But I mean, unfortunately, I can't avoid
it when I'm sort of looking at my phone and
things like that. It's it's unfortunate that that happens. But anyway,
thank you for sharing your story. Uh, Matt. And, um, well,
may you, uh, not look blind?
S11 (23:14):
Yeah, well, I'll try not to, but it's a bit
hard when you need a Braille mirror to show yourself
every morning.
S3 (23:26):
The problem? Well, it's sort of problematic. I'm trying to
find the right words to go with. It is because
the gentleman in question was indigenous. And in Western Australia.
I noticed this when I was living there. Uh, the
indigenous people are not exactly treated well even to this day. There's, uh,
a lot of racism going around. I know friends of
(23:48):
mine who have moved to Perth from Darwin, for example,
and they've said this is the first time they've ever
encountered true racism. So you've got otherwise disadvantaged people who
are being treated rather badly with a chip on their shoulder,
the size of Tasmania or thereabouts. So the first thing
(24:08):
that often and we'll find this, um, when people are
having problems with, uh, this kind of thing, they'll see
somebody else who is more vulnerable than they are. And
it's an open invitation to bully somebody. That's the way
I sort of see it. I don't know if you've
encountered the same issue. I mean, have have you encountered
the same problem from people who, in theory, should know better?
S4 (24:31):
Yeah, actually, I have definitely. I would have to say
younger people should know better. Um, because there's a lot
of education going on in the schools today about people
with guide dogs and blind people. I mean, guide dogs
here in SA basically do this thing all the time
where they take dogs to school. And yet I've had
teenagers and younger people accused me of basically, uh, faking
(24:57):
my vision so I could get a dog. Yeah. And
it's like. But do you know better? You know why
these dogs are needed? And I don't know what makes
you think that I would be faking my disability? I mean,
I've had old people patronize me and and things like that, but, um,
those were the only ones that I could say should
know better. I've never had indigenous people or people of
(25:17):
different race pick on me. Um, I've never had anything escalate,
so I'm quite lucky, I think. I don't want to
say it's because I'm a female, because females definitely get
it a lot as well. But the people with the
most absurd stories in, in my point of view, that
the ones that I've heard are all blokes, like, they
just seem to attract more aggression, which is not good.
S3 (25:38):
I'd suggest that being a woman, it would be more
people trying to take advantage, because that's the way they
see the female role.
S4 (25:47):
Oh, definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Yes. I've had people, um, definitely
try to lead me astray. You know, I've been touched
inappropriately on public transport. I've had people. I've had somebody
follow me home. Yeah, again. I think you're right, because
(26:07):
I am seen as more vulnerable and because I'm a
small female, people tend to. Yeah, like you said, take advantage.
So generally when I get the you don't look blind statement,
it is more on the positive like, oh you don't
look blind. How do you do that more than the negative.
And if I do get the negative, I mean, I,
like other people, have stood up for me before, so
(26:30):
I haven't had anything like that escalate. But yeah, I've
definitely had my share of scary incidents.
S3 (26:35):
Well, with that slightly dark ending, that is a wrap
for this week. A big thank you to Anthony, to Alex,
to Steven and Matt.
S4 (26:46):
And of course, thanks to you for listening. That includes
our listeners on the Reading Radio Network. As usual, you
can find a podcast of this program on Apple, Spotify,
Google or your favorite podcast platform.
S3 (26:59):
Next week, have you got any makeup tips? I don't, but.
S4 (27:02):
I don't know, Sam. you'd look really good in a
nice shade of red lipstick. Anyway, luckily for our listeners,
we'll be catching up with Storm Menzies from Bystorm Beauty
and some of our ladies. Yeah, definitely just the ladies
will share their makeup tips.
S3 (27:18):
But between now and then, please do get in touch
with the show. Whether you have experience of any of
the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio One,
or if you think there's something we should be talking about.
You never know. Your story and insight may help somebody
else who is dealing with something similar.
S4 (27:33):
You can contact us via email at studio One at
Vision Australia. Org. That's studio number one at Vision Australia.
Or of course, you can find us on all of
the social media platforms like Facebook or Instagram by searching
for Viva Radio Network. We want to hear from you.
S3 (27:52):
This program was made possible with the support of the
Community Broadcasting Foundation.
S4 (27:56):
Find out more at.
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