October 19, 2021 • 26 mins
How would you react if you lost a family member in an act of terrorism? In the final episode of Taking Apart Terror, Mike Haines, Omar Mohammed and Figen Murray remember their lost loved ones - David, Ahmed and Martyn - and how they refuse to let terror extinguish their compassion.
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Episode Transcript
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Adnan Sarwar (00:00):
Before we begin, this is a podcast about terrorism, which
means we do talk about acts of terror and extreme
violence, sometimes in quite a lot of detail, so you
might find some of the following material upsetting. Hello, I'm
Adnan Sarwar, and if I sound a bit different, it's
(00:21):
because I'm here. I'm in Kabul, Afghanistan, reporting on what
life under Taliban rule is like, and how they, and we,
should be dealing with a very real threat caused by ISIS-
K. Six months ago, neither the world nor I had
any idea that journalists like me would have cause to
(00:44):
be here. It's proof if we ever needed it, that
extremism in all its forms is ever present. Whatever happens
in Afghanistan, there's no doubt that whenever you're listening to
this, terrorism will be shattering lives somewhere. Before I left
on this assignment, we recorded our final discussion, and we
chose to end the series looking at something that so
(01:06):
often lives alongside acts of terror, forgiveness. Is it possible?
Or as we are calling this episode, is terrorism unforgivable?
Up until now in this series, we have been focusing
on terrorism activities through the lens of those carrying them
(01:27):
out. But in this episode, we want to look more
closely at the consequences of those activities, and to find
out from people with personal experience what dealing with those
consequences can be like. We're also going to be asking what
is the aim of an atrocity and how should we
respond? And what does the Muslim community think about their
religion being used for this? I'm joined by four people
(01:48):
who all have a unique angle on this. Two of
them you've met before. Dr. Nadia Oweidat who, among other
things, studies the ideologies and ideas that drive Islamic extremism.
Hello, Nadia.
Nadia Oweidat (01:59):
Hi. How are you?
Adnan Sarwar (02:00):
I'm good. Thank you. And we have all Omar Mohammed
who, as the Mossel eye, risked his life to let
the world know what was happening under Dai'sh in the
city. Hello Omar.
Omar Mohammed (02:12):
Hi, Adnan. Thank you for having me again.
Adnan Sarwar (02:14):
We also welcome, today, Fegan Murray, whose son, Martyn Hett,
was amongst those who we lost in the Manchester arena
bombing in 2017. Fegan is now involved with helping all
kinds of communities focus on tolerance. Hello Fegan.
Fegan Murray (02:30):
Hi. And we have Mike Haines, whose brother, David, was
very publicly and brutally murdered by Dai'sh in 2014. And
he now runs Global Acts of Unity, also to help
promote tolerance in schools. Mike, if I can start with
you, these are not easy things to talk about, and
(02:54):
I'm sure people are wondering how they would've reacted if
this would've happened to them. What was your initial reaction?
Mike Haines (03:02):
I had moved most of my family to my home,
and on the 13th of September, 2014, three minutes past
11 at night, I received a phone call saying that
my brother had gone. I had to gather my family
together and tell them that their son, their uncle, their
(03:25):
father was no longer with us. And that was the hardest point of my
life. I was so angry, so frustrated. I was filled
full of hate. But I have what I call my
head and heart problem. And I emotionally react to an issue,
(03:45):
but I always mock it up. So, I tried to
think what was the act of murdering David about? And I
very quickly saw that it was hatred that they were trying
to spread, and that I to stand against that hatred.
Adnan Sarwar (04:02):
Fegan, can I ask you the same question? What was
your initial reaction?
Fegan Murray (04:07):
Well, after the initial shock, obviously, and the immense grief, I
very quickly came to a point of forgiveness and felt that that
is the only way I can really respond to stay
within my own humanity and not lose who I am as
a human being. I just couldn't allow my heart to
(04:28):
go and be wrapped around with dark stuff. That would've
been so easy, but I just decided not to succumb
to the darkness.
Adnan Sarwar (04:37):
Omar, I think you have a personal experience about this, as well?
Omar Mohammed (04:40):
Beside the horrors I lived, Adnan, I also lost my
brother during the battle of Mossel, whom I spoke to the night before,
urging him to leave the house because I had received
information that there is going to be a heavy attack on
the neighborhood. I was waiting to receive a call from
(05:03):
him, the second day. I called my sister. I called
my mother. I called my other brothers. I felt there
was something wrong. Where is (Ahmed) , my brother? Why
I can't speak to him, until after four days, they
decided to tell me that my brother had died while
he was moving from his room to get some water to
(05:26):
his children, and a bullet would come from nowhere and
just leave him dead.
Adnan Sarwar (05:35):
I've never experienced anything like that. And I can't imagine what
it feels like at that moment, but I think I
would be angry and I would want revenge. How do you
not get there? How do you stop yourself from wanting that?
Omar Mohammed (05:49):
I have never felt the meaning of hate like I
did at that moment. The only thing I could see
is how I take revenge for the death of my
brother. But then I realized this is what they wanted,
is to fill our hearts with hate, because that's how
(06:09):
they will win. Once I realized this, I went back
to what I used to do, is to spread hope among
people. And now when I realized that I have a
much bigger mission and that I should never allow myself
to invest my energy in hatred, and to take the (grievance)
(06:31):
of my brother, whom I never cried until now.
And there will be a moment when I will cry
my brother, when I feel that justice is served.
Adnan Sarwar (06:41):
Fegan.
Fegan Murray (06:43):
It's so easy to want to hate these people. But I feel,
in my case, I needed still to function in the
role as a mother, wife, and grandmother, and friend and
sister, and all the other roles I play in my
life, and had I succumbed to anger and rage and
that darkness, I would not have been able to function.
(07:04):
And they would have not just lost a son, a
brother, a cousin. They would've lost me, as well. And
I couldn't do that to my family. But most importantly,
in Martyn's memory, Martyn was good person. He was a
kindhearted person. And I don't think he would've wanted me
to hate. And therefore I chose to go completely the
(07:27):
opposite way. And I'm forever talking about global compassion. They
will never win over love and kindness, because in essence,
human beings are good. And that's what I want to believe.
Adnan Sarwar (07:42):
Mike, how do you stop yourself from wanting to be
angry and take revenge?
Mike Haines (07:49):
I have a daily battle with hatred. Every time I
wake up in the morning and the loss of my
brother hits me, it's... I feel that hatred. But hatred
is a choice. Hatred only destroys. And it... that acting
(08:11):
in hatred is playing into the hands of all extremists,
all terrorists. And if we hate, they win. It's that
simple. So I channeled about how I felt into creating
Global Acts of Unity. And I work with students, and
(08:33):
all sorts of different people, about trying to show that
hatred is a natural feeling, but acting in hatred is
a choice.
Adnan Sarwar (08:44):
Nadia, I'm just trying to get a handle on, when
people say, " Well, Dai'sh, or the Islamic State, this what Islam
is," what's your view on that?
Nadia Oweidat (08:55):
First, let me just start by uploading the phenomenal might of my
colleagues for leaning on their humanity and choosing love in
the face of phenomenal violence. There are as many Islams
as there are Muslims. And if I look at even
my own family, literally every single one of us have
(09:15):
a completely different view of what Islam is. And I
tell my students, " When somebody says they're Muslim, there is
nothing you can assume about them. They could believe Islam
equals Swedish, Scandinavian human rights. They could believe Islam equals
that, and anything in between." So, there is not one
Islam and there has never been one since the prophet's
(09:37):
death. When he was alive, people would come to him
and say, " Is this Islamic?" And he would educate. The
second he died, the second differences started to manifest. And
since then, there's a lot of sects, and there's so
much diversity. The Islam of Tunisia is different than the
Islam of Indonesia, different than the Islam of, name it.
(09:57):
So, there is not one Islam. One has to define
what Islam means for him or her. And it's very
different for different people.
Adnan Sarwar (10:05):
Mike, what does Islam mean to you after this happened
to your family, after this very personal act?
Mike Haines (10:13):
The day after David was murdered, I did a video for
the BBC asking for there to be no reprisals against
innocent Muslim people. I wanted to quote from the Quran,
but wanted to make sure I was not going to
misquote. I was introduced to a London Imam, and a
friendship has, well, been rolling now for the past six
(10:38):
years, and it's wonderful. I have traveled all over the
world. I have spoken in mosques in Afghanistan, in Jordan,
Turkey, different places, all over the UK, and in Europe.
And I have never been met with anything but warmth,
(10:59):
compassion, and friendship. But Nadia was saying about there being
different Islams. Yes. There's different Christianities. There's different Buddhists. There's
different of all types. Every religion has its extremists.
Adnan Sarwar (11:21):
Fegan, you wanted to say something?
Fegan Murray (11:21):
Since Martin died, what I've come across was a saying somewhere
I read, and I really believe that to be true.
And it said, " Religion doesn't radicalize people. People radicalize religion."
No religion on this planet promotes killing other people. It's
(11:43):
just as simple as that. Religion is meant to be kind and
and good and pure.
Adnan Sarwar (11:50):
Mike, it seems you're quite active in trying to change
the way people think about Muslims.
Mike Haines (11:55):
Yeah, it's important. When we were kids, Mom and Dad
brought David and I up to respect other people's cultures,
colors, and faiths. And the only thing different from us
all, whatever your position in life, whether you be a
queen, or whether you be a beggar on the street,
is our stories. And if we can talk to each
(12:19):
other... And that's one of the things that I promote
in my school visits, is that, when you don't know
something of someone's life or someone's culture, someone's faith, ask
a question.
Adnan Sarwar (12:33):
Fegan.
Fegan Murray (12:33):
I do like my go- to- schools and talk to
young people, not just about the dangers of online radicalization,
but also about, that they are the future adults and
decision makers, and they can choose what kind of planet
and world they want to live in. And that they
are future politicians and educators, but most importantly, future parents,
(12:58):
and as future parents, they can ensure that they instill
those values that Mike talks about, like kindness tolerance...
Adnan Sarwar (13:07):
Omar. How does your work continue?
Omar Mohammed (13:11):
Speaking of whether Dai'sh represent Islam or not, we are
not asking the right question. It's not whether Dai'sh represent
Islam or not. Let's ask this question of, what damage
did Dai'sh do to the Muslims? You can only get
this answer when you speak to Muslims. I have been
(13:32):
speaking to religious leadership in Mossel, mostly Muslim Sunnis, whose
text and the book they read was used by Dai'sh.
When I ask them, " What damage Dai'sh did to you," they
tell me there is no one since the beginning of
Islam until this moment, was able to do such a
(13:56):
damage to Islam than the damage Dai'sh did to them. So
they feel what Dai'sh did, and they know the chaos Dai'sh left
about Islam and how this way of Dai'sh trying to impose
itself as an authority over Islam was part of its
(14:18):
strategy to keep the Muslims confused and to give the non-
Muslims also the excuse to hate. Because this is the
mechanism of how D played its own dangerous game of religions.
Adnan Sarwar (14:35):
Nadia?
Nadia Oweidat (14:36):
Part of addressing this problem of terrorism, and this is
something I am personally working on is, we empower voices,
like my colleagues, who are actually spreading love and very
humane values because they enable all of us to exist
despite our spiritual backgrounds. And the other component that I
(14:57):
think is so important, and again, we haven't done anything,
in my opinion, nearly as much as we need to,
which is healing, and trauma, and the PTSD that a
lot of people are having. And healing starts by individual
healing. And now we have children who grew up with
so much trauma in the places that ISIS occupied, children
(15:20):
who've seen the violence, who grew up with it. So
how do we start this healing journey? And it needs
to be serious and international, as well as national, and
communal, effort. Otherwise, we have problems for decades and decades
to come from that trauma, if it's left unhealed.
Adnan Sarwar (15:39):
The more I think about this subject matter... I grew
as a Muslim. I don't know enough about my religion,
and I'm in my forties. So I'm doing the work,
now. I'm reading the Quran in English, and I'm learning Arabic.
And I'm learning more about Islam. I'm reading critical writers
on this. And there's some hard work here to be
done by our community. So, thank you for highlighting that.
(16:02):
I wanted to get to something you said there, Nadia,
about healing. Fegan, how do we start healing? How do
we do that?
Fegan Murray (16:10):
To be honest with you, every time I go into a classroom, a
little bit of me starts to heal again. Because I
just feel, if I can get through to some of
the children, even one in a whole group, then it's
a positive thing. Healing is also, just literally, a choice.
You can actually resist it by tapping into anger and
(16:35):
immense grief in a way that's unhealthy. For me, healing
is doing proactive things. Instead of post traumatic stress, we
have post traumatic growth, and we use that to try
and promote positivity and kindness. And that in itself, I
think, is healing. For me, it is. I don't know how it
(16:56):
is for you, Mike, but for me it is.
Mike Haines (16:58):
Yeah. I find talking with the students an incredibly healing
process, because we're retelling the story of what happened to
our loved ones. We're still reliving that experience, and that's
hard. But then you have at the end of the
presentation, the students questions, a nod from a student going
(17:22):
out the door, and you just know that they have
understood our messages, and are going to carry them forward.
And it's the potential of that that... it's better than
all the gold in the world.
Adnan Sarwar (17:39):
Thank you. Omar, what do you think about that? How do we
get towards healing?
Omar Mohammed (17:44):
The best way of healing is by helping the communities
not only to restore their normal life, but also by
helping them to see the light and to contribute positively
to their future, by giving them the responsibility to be
(18:05):
proactive members of their communities, by bringing justice, by reconstructing
what terrorism destroyed, by investing more in critical thinking, but
investing even more to help the people ask questions. The
(18:25):
key point to our full healing is the example Mike
mentioned. The more we ask the questions, the better our
understanding of this life becomes, and the more we get
control over our narrative, the narrative that we want to
spread. Because Dai'sh thrives on ignorance. Dai'sh lives where there
(18:50):
is ignorance. Because ignorance is the simple formula of spreading hate. And
the opposite is knowledge. And that's why Dai'sh hates knowledge.
Nadia Oweidat (19:03):
Omar, you raised the idea of knowledge. Because I do agree
with you that knowledge is so powerful, and critical thinking,
and nonviolent communication, and empathy and compassion, that raises men
and women that don't need to use violence.
Adnan Sarwar (19:18):
This is part of the recovery, as well, isn't it
Nadia, that we don't just make these simple equations like, "
Dai'sh is Islam," or " Islam is violence." It's the fact
that we look at the whole complicated truth.
Nadia Oweidat (19:31):
Yes. People need that acknowledgement. This is why, after a
hundred years or more, the Armenian genocide. Why do they
need that acknowledgement? It's already been done? There is something
incredibly healing about acknowledgement. Acknowledgement of wrongdoing is, in my
opinion, the first step towards healing. You can't get to
(19:53):
love and healing if you don't acknowledge, if you just
bury it, and really having the courage to see our
shadow, if you would.
Adnan Sarwar (20:01):
One of the things that stuck out all the way
through this conversation from all your powerful testimonies, and the
guidance that you're actually giving is, one word sticks out
to me, is choice, that we can choose to learn,
and we can choose to ask questions, and we can
choose to love. Could you give me a final thought
on how we can fix this, or is there somebody
(20:23):
out there who's searching for something to grab hold of?
What advice would you give them? Omar, can I start
with you?
Omar Mohammed (20:31):
As we said, hate is choice, but also forgiveness is a
choice. It will make you feel strongly if you forgive.
But it is very dangerous to forget. We have the power of
forgiveness, the power of forgiveness that they lack that they
(20:51):
don't have. That's why they committed all these atrocities. But
we have to remember, always, that those victims are not (statics)
or numbers. Those victims had lives, they had dreams,
(21:13):
they had imaginations, that were simply taken away from them.
We should never allow names of Fegan's son, Mike's brother,
my brother, and the thousands others, we should never allow their names
to be transformed into (statics) to be used on
(21:33):
the news or other places. No. we should always honor
their names. That's one thing. The second is, using this
memory not to advance revenge or hatred, rather using this
memory to show the people that, when hatred rules, the
(21:57):
result will be destruction, not only of your enemies, but
also of yourself. I am myself a victim of that
destruction, Adnan, because I am no more able to visit
or see my city. That's how conflict do not only
destroy the building, it destroys a deep side of your
(22:20):
soul. But if you allow them to get deeper into
your soul, then they will win, even if they are defeated.
Adnan Sarwar (22:28):
Thank you. Mike?
Mike Haines (22:30):
Death is a part of life, but losing folk to terrorist acts through
acts of hatred, it can destroy. However, that hatred that
you feel inside, you can choose to ignore. None of
(22:53):
us here hate because we have lost people. So, if
we don't hate because of that, why should you hate
because someone calls you a name or gives you a
kick, or something like that. You can choose not to
hate. And I'll tell you something, it is the most powerful
(23:14):
feeling. Overcoming that hatred is a joy.
Adnan Sarwar (23:20):
Fegan?
Fegan Murray (23:22):
Forgiveness is empowering. I feel that. Resilience together with forgiveness
makes me strong as a person. And I think, Omar,
what you said about, that names should never be forgotten.
I will never allow Martyn and the people who died
alongside him that day, to be collateral damage. Anybody who
(23:44):
dies off terrorism should never ever be forgotten, that their
names should be always in people's memory. And they shouldn't
be alongside the names of the terrorists to kill them,
for instance, in the media. They are real people who
had dreams, aspirations, and hope for the future, and that's
all been taken away from them. And actually, also from us.
Adnan Sarwar (24:07):
Thank you. Nadia? Any final thoughts?
Nadia Oweidat (24:10):
Yes. I am a historian of ideas. So, ideas are
incredibly powerful. Ideas could be very harmful, could be very
violent, or they could achieve the opposite impact. We hear
about the billions upon the billions, every single year in
promoting and supporting ideas that create the likes of ISIS.
(24:33):
And we need to invest just as many billions, although
it doesn't take as much to invest in a good
idea, because love is much easier to spread than hate,
actually. In the sanctity of individual sovereignty, that every human
being has sovereignty, that nobody is allowed to violate that
sovereignty, that their soul, their life, their... Imagine if we
(24:56):
support this idea that nobody is allowed to violate another
human being's sovereignty, that every interaction has to be with
consent, with mutual respect. Imagine how powerful that is. I
think that is the way forward, is to support the
ideas that there's no space for the ideas like ISIS's,
(25:16):
that cannot compete with these powerful ideas.
Adnan Sarwar (25:20):
Thank you all for that conversation. And thank you for
your time, and your memories. I've learnt a lot from
you. (foreign language) Thank you, very much. This is the end of our current series
of Talking about Terror. We've looked at violent extremism, Islamist
(25:40):
extremism, in particular, from all sides, trying to explain how
and why terrorists do what they do. I hope we've
helped you understand more about this complex subject, and maybe
the next time you see something on the news about
a terrorist act somewhere in the world, you'll take more
notice, be more engaged, and be less afraid. Because I
can tell you, as I look outside my window here
(26:02):
in Qabala, this is a reality and it's not going away
anytime soon. I'm Adnan Sarwar. Until we meet again, goodbye.
Before we begin, this is a podcast about terrorism, which
means we do talk about acts of terror and extreme
violence, sometimes in quite a lot of detail, so you
might find some of the following material upsetting. Hello, I'm
Adnan Sarwar, and if I sound a bit different, it's
(00:21):
because I'm here. I'm in Kabul, Afghanistan, reporting on what
life under Taliban rule is like, and how they, and we,
should be dealing with a very real threat caused by ISIS-
K. Six months ago, neither the world nor I had
any idea that journalists like me would have cause to
(00:44):
be here. It's proof if we ever needed it, that
extremism in all its forms is ever present. Whatever happens
in Afghanistan, there's no doubt that whenever you're listening to
this, terrorism will be shattering lives somewhere. Before I left
on this assignment, we recorded our final discussion, and we
chose to end the series looking at something that so
(01:06):
often lives alongside acts of terror, forgiveness. Is it possible?
Or as we are calling this episode, is terrorism unforgivable?
Up until now in this series, we have been focusing
on terrorism activities through the lens of those carrying them
(01:27):
out. But in this episode, we want to look more
closely at the consequences of those activities, and to find
out from people with personal experience what dealing with those
consequences can be like. We're also going to be asking what
is the aim of an atrocity and how should we
respond? And what does the Muslim community think about their
religion being used for this? I'm joined by four people
(01:48):
who all have a unique angle on this. Two of
them you've met before. Dr. Nadia Oweidat who, among other
things, studies the ideologies and ideas that drive Islamic extremism.
Hello, Nadia.
Nadia Oweidat (01:59):
Hi. How are you?
Adnan Sarwar (02:00):
I'm good. Thank you. And we have all Omar Mohammed
who, as the Mossel eye, risked his life to let
the world know what was happening under Dai'sh in the
city. Hello Omar.
Omar Mohammed (02:12):
Hi, Adnan. Thank you for having me again.
Adnan Sarwar (02:14):
We also welcome, today, Fegan Murray, whose son, Martyn Hett,
was amongst those who we lost in the Manchester arena
bombing in 2017. Fegan is now involved with helping all
kinds of communities focus on tolerance. Hello Fegan.
Fegan Murray (02:30):
Hi. And we have Mike Haines, whose brother, David, was
very publicly and brutally murdered by Dai'sh in 2014. And
he now runs Global Acts of Unity, also to help
promote tolerance in schools. Mike, if I can start with
you, these are not easy things to talk about, and
(02:54):
I'm sure people are wondering how they would've reacted if
this would've happened to them. What was your initial reaction?
Mike Haines (03:02):
I had moved most of my family to my home,
and on the 13th of September, 2014, three minutes past
11 at night, I received a phone call saying that
my brother had gone. I had to gather my family
together and tell them that their son, their uncle, their
(03:25):
father was no longer with us. And that was the hardest point of my
life. I was so angry, so frustrated. I was filled
full of hate. But I have what I call my
head and heart problem. And I emotionally react to an issue,
(03:45):
but I always mock it up. So, I tried to
think what was the act of murdering David about? And I
very quickly saw that it was hatred that they were trying
to spread, and that I to stand against that hatred.
Adnan Sarwar (04:02):
Fegan, can I ask you the same question? What was
your initial reaction?
Fegan Murray (04:07):
Well, after the initial shock, obviously, and the immense grief, I
very quickly came to a point of forgiveness and felt that that
is the only way I can really respond to stay
within my own humanity and not lose who I am as
a human being. I just couldn't allow my heart to
(04:28):
go and be wrapped around with dark stuff. That would've
been so easy, but I just decided not to succumb
to the darkness.
Adnan Sarwar (04:37):
Omar, I think you have a personal experience about this, as well?
Omar Mohammed (04:40):
Beside the horrors I lived, Adnan, I also lost my
brother during the battle of Mossel, whom I spoke to the night before,
urging him to leave the house because I had received
information that there is going to be a heavy attack on
the neighborhood. I was waiting to receive a call from
(05:03):
him, the second day. I called my sister. I called
my mother. I called my other brothers. I felt there
was something wrong. Where is (Ahmed) , my brother? Why
I can't speak to him, until after four days, they
decided to tell me that my brother had died while
he was moving from his room to get some water to
(05:26):
his children, and a bullet would come from nowhere and
just leave him dead.
Adnan Sarwar (05:35):
I've never experienced anything like that. And I can't imagine what
it feels like at that moment, but I think I
would be angry and I would want revenge. How do you
not get there? How do you stop yourself from wanting that?
Omar Mohammed (05:49):
I have never felt the meaning of hate like I
did at that moment. The only thing I could see
is how I take revenge for the death of my
brother. But then I realized this is what they wanted,
is to fill our hearts with hate, because that's how
(06:09):
they will win. Once I realized this, I went back
to what I used to do, is to spread hope among
people. And now when I realized that I have a
much bigger mission and that I should never allow myself
to invest my energy in hatred, and to take the (grievance)
(06:31):
of my brother, whom I never cried until now.
And there will be a moment when I will cry
my brother, when I feel that justice is served.
Adnan Sarwar (06:41):
Fegan.
Fegan Murray (06:43):
It's so easy to want to hate these people. But I feel,
in my case, I needed still to function in the
role as a mother, wife, and grandmother, and friend and
sister, and all the other roles I play in my
life, and had I succumbed to anger and rage and
that darkness, I would not have been able to function.
(07:04):
And they would have not just lost a son, a
brother, a cousin. They would've lost me, as well. And
I couldn't do that to my family. But most importantly,
in Martyn's memory, Martyn was good person. He was a
kindhearted person. And I don't think he would've wanted me
to hate. And therefore I chose to go completely the
(07:27):
opposite way. And I'm forever talking about global compassion. They
will never win over love and kindness, because in essence,
human beings are good. And that's what I want to believe.
Adnan Sarwar (07:42):
Mike, how do you stop yourself from wanting to be
angry and take revenge?
Mike Haines (07:49):
I have a daily battle with hatred. Every time I
wake up in the morning and the loss of my
brother hits me, it's... I feel that hatred. But hatred
is a choice. Hatred only destroys. And it... that acting
(08:11):
in hatred is playing into the hands of all extremists,
all terrorists. And if we hate, they win. It's that
simple. So I channeled about how I felt into creating
Global Acts of Unity. And I work with students, and
(08:33):
all sorts of different people, about trying to show that
hatred is a natural feeling, but acting in hatred is
a choice.
Adnan Sarwar (08:44):
Nadia, I'm just trying to get a handle on, when
people say, " Well, Dai'sh, or the Islamic State, this what Islam
is," what's your view on that?
Nadia Oweidat (08:55):
First, let me just start by uploading the phenomenal might of my
colleagues for leaning on their humanity and choosing love in
the face of phenomenal violence. There are as many Islams
as there are Muslims. And if I look at even
my own family, literally every single one of us have
(09:15):
a completely different view of what Islam is. And I
tell my students, " When somebody says they're Muslim, there is
nothing you can assume about them. They could believe Islam
equals Swedish, Scandinavian human rights. They could believe Islam equals
that, and anything in between." So, there is not one
Islam and there has never been one since the prophet's
(09:37):
death. When he was alive, people would come to him
and say, " Is this Islamic?" And he would educate. The
second he died, the second differences started to manifest. And
since then, there's a lot of sects, and there's so
much diversity. The Islam of Tunisia is different than the
Islam of Indonesia, different than the Islam of, name it.
(09:57):
So, there is not one Islam. One has to define
what Islam means for him or her. And it's very
different for different people.
Adnan Sarwar (10:05):
Mike, what does Islam mean to you after this happened
to your family, after this very personal act?
Mike Haines (10:13):
The day after David was murdered, I did a video for
the BBC asking for there to be no reprisals against
innocent Muslim people. I wanted to quote from the Quran,
but wanted to make sure I was not going to
misquote. I was introduced to a London Imam, and a
friendship has, well, been rolling now for the past six
(10:38):
years, and it's wonderful. I have traveled all over the
world. I have spoken in mosques in Afghanistan, in Jordan,
Turkey, different places, all over the UK, and in Europe.
And I have never been met with anything but warmth,
(10:59):
compassion, and friendship. But Nadia was saying about there being
different Islams. Yes. There's different Christianities. There's different Buddhists. There's
different of all types. Every religion has its extremists.
Adnan Sarwar (11:21):
Fegan, you wanted to say something?
Fegan Murray (11:21):
Since Martin died, what I've come across was a saying somewhere
I read, and I really believe that to be true.
And it said, " Religion doesn't radicalize people. People radicalize religion."
No religion on this planet promotes killing other people. It's
(11:43):
just as simple as that. Religion is meant to be kind and
and good and pure.
Adnan Sarwar (11:50):
Mike, it seems you're quite active in trying to change
the way people think about Muslims.
Mike Haines (11:55):
Yeah, it's important. When we were kids, Mom and Dad
brought David and I up to respect other people's cultures,
colors, and faiths. And the only thing different from us
all, whatever your position in life, whether you be a
queen, or whether you be a beggar on the street,
is our stories. And if we can talk to each
(12:19):
other... And that's one of the things that I promote
in my school visits, is that, when you don't know
something of someone's life or someone's culture, someone's faith, ask
a question.
Adnan Sarwar (12:33):
Fegan.
Fegan Murray (12:33):
I do like my go- to- schools and talk to
young people, not just about the dangers of online radicalization,
but also about, that they are the future adults and
decision makers, and they can choose what kind of planet
and world they want to live in. And that they
are future politicians and educators, but most importantly, future parents,
(12:58):
and as future parents, they can ensure that they instill
those values that Mike talks about, like kindness tolerance...
Adnan Sarwar (13:07):
Omar. How does your work continue?
Omar Mohammed (13:11):
Speaking of whether Dai'sh represent Islam or not, we are
not asking the right question. It's not whether Dai'sh represent
Islam or not. Let's ask this question of, what damage
did Dai'sh do to the Muslims? You can only get
this answer when you speak to Muslims. I have been
(13:32):
speaking to religious leadership in Mossel, mostly Muslim Sunnis, whose
text and the book they read was used by Dai'sh.
When I ask them, " What damage Dai'sh did to you," they
tell me there is no one since the beginning of
Islam until this moment, was able to do such a
(13:56):
damage to Islam than the damage Dai'sh did to them. So
they feel what Dai'sh did, and they know the chaos Dai'sh left
about Islam and how this way of Dai'sh trying to impose
itself as an authority over Islam was part of its
(14:18):
strategy to keep the Muslims confused and to give the non-
Muslims also the excuse to hate. Because this is the
mechanism of how D played its own dangerous game of religions.
Adnan Sarwar (14:35):
Nadia?
Nadia Oweidat (14:36):
Part of addressing this problem of terrorism, and this is
something I am personally working on is, we empower voices,
like my colleagues, who are actually spreading love and very
humane values because they enable all of us to exist
despite our spiritual backgrounds. And the other component that I
(14:57):
think is so important, and again, we haven't done anything,
in my opinion, nearly as much as we need to,
which is healing, and trauma, and the PTSD that a
lot of people are having. And healing starts by individual
healing. And now we have children who grew up with
so much trauma in the places that ISIS occupied, children
(15:20):
who've seen the violence, who grew up with it. So
how do we start this healing journey? And it needs
to be serious and international, as well as national, and
communal, effort. Otherwise, we have problems for decades and decades
to come from that trauma, if it's left unhealed.
Adnan Sarwar (15:39):
The more I think about this subject matter... I grew
as a Muslim. I don't know enough about my religion,
and I'm in my forties. So I'm doing the work,
now. I'm reading the Quran in English, and I'm learning Arabic.
And I'm learning more about Islam. I'm reading critical writers
on this. And there's some hard work here to be
done by our community. So, thank you for highlighting that.
(16:02):
I wanted to get to something you said there, Nadia,
about healing. Fegan, how do we start healing? How do
we do that?
Fegan Murray (16:10):
To be honest with you, every time I go into a classroom, a
little bit of me starts to heal again. Because I
just feel, if I can get through to some of
the children, even one in a whole group, then it's
a positive thing. Healing is also, just literally, a choice.
You can actually resist it by tapping into anger and
(16:35):
immense grief in a way that's unhealthy. For me, healing
is doing proactive things. Instead of post traumatic stress, we
have post traumatic growth, and we use that to try
and promote positivity and kindness. And that in itself, I
think, is healing. For me, it is. I don't know how it
(16:56):
is for you, Mike, but for me it is.
Mike Haines (16:58):
Yeah. I find talking with the students an incredibly healing
process, because we're retelling the story of what happened to
our loved ones. We're still reliving that experience, and that's
hard. But then you have at the end of the
presentation, the students questions, a nod from a student going
(17:22):
out the door, and you just know that they have
understood our messages, and are going to carry them forward.
And it's the potential of that that... it's better than
all the gold in the world.
Adnan Sarwar (17:39):
Thank you. Omar, what do you think about that? How do we
get towards healing?
Omar Mohammed (17:44):
The best way of healing is by helping the communities
not only to restore their normal life, but also by
helping them to see the light and to contribute positively
to their future, by giving them the responsibility to be
(18:05):
proactive members of their communities, by bringing justice, by reconstructing
what terrorism destroyed, by investing more in critical thinking, but
investing even more to help the people ask questions. The
(18:25):
key point to our full healing is the example Mike
mentioned. The more we ask the questions, the better our
understanding of this life becomes, and the more we get
control over our narrative, the narrative that we want to
spread. Because Dai'sh thrives on ignorance. Dai'sh lives where there
(18:50):
is ignorance. Because ignorance is the simple formula of spreading hate. And
the opposite is knowledge. And that's why Dai'sh hates knowledge.
Nadia Oweidat (19:03):
Omar, you raised the idea of knowledge. Because I do agree
with you that knowledge is so powerful, and critical thinking,
and nonviolent communication, and empathy and compassion, that raises men
and women that don't need to use violence.
Adnan Sarwar (19:18):
This is part of the recovery, as well, isn't it
Nadia, that we don't just make these simple equations like, "
Dai'sh is Islam," or " Islam is violence." It's the fact
that we look at the whole complicated truth.
Nadia Oweidat (19:31):
Yes. People need that acknowledgement. This is why, after a
hundred years or more, the Armenian genocide. Why do they
need that acknowledgement? It's already been done? There is something
incredibly healing about acknowledgement. Acknowledgement of wrongdoing is, in my
opinion, the first step towards healing. You can't get to
(19:53):
love and healing if you don't acknowledge, if you just
bury it, and really having the courage to see our
shadow, if you would.
Adnan Sarwar (20:01):
One of the things that stuck out all the way
through this conversation from all your powerful testimonies, and the
guidance that you're actually giving is, one word sticks out
to me, is choice, that we can choose to learn,
and we can choose to ask questions, and we can
choose to love. Could you give me a final thought
on how we can fix this, or is there somebody
(20:23):
out there who's searching for something to grab hold of?
What advice would you give them? Omar, can I start
with you?
Omar Mohammed (20:31):
As we said, hate is choice, but also forgiveness is a
choice. It will make you feel strongly if you forgive.
But it is very dangerous to forget. We have the power of
forgiveness, the power of forgiveness that they lack that they
(20:51):
don't have. That's why they committed all these atrocities. But
we have to remember, always, that those victims are not (statics)
or numbers. Those victims had lives, they had dreams,
(21:13):
they had imaginations, that were simply taken away from them.
We should never allow names of Fegan's son, Mike's brother,
my brother, and the thousands others, we should never allow their names
to be transformed into (statics) to be used on
(21:33):
the news or other places. No. we should always honor
their names. That's one thing. The second is, using this
memory not to advance revenge or hatred, rather using this
memory to show the people that, when hatred rules, the
(21:57):
result will be destruction, not only of your enemies, but
also of yourself. I am myself a victim of that
destruction, Adnan, because I am no more able to visit
or see my city. That's how conflict do not only
destroy the building, it destroys a deep side of your
(22:20):
soul. But if you allow them to get deeper into
your soul, then they will win, even if they are defeated.
Adnan Sarwar (22:28):
Thank you. Mike?
Mike Haines (22:30):
Death is a part of life, but losing folk to terrorist acts through
acts of hatred, it can destroy. However, that hatred that
you feel inside, you can choose to ignore. None of
(22:53):
us here hate because we have lost people. So, if
we don't hate because of that, why should you hate
because someone calls you a name or gives you a
kick, or something like that. You can choose not to
hate. And I'll tell you something, it is the most powerful
(23:14):
feeling. Overcoming that hatred is a joy.
Adnan Sarwar (23:20):
Fegan?
Fegan Murray (23:22):
Forgiveness is empowering. I feel that. Resilience together with forgiveness
makes me strong as a person. And I think, Omar,
what you said about, that names should never be forgotten.
I will never allow Martyn and the people who died
alongside him that day, to be collateral damage. Anybody who
(23:44):
dies off terrorism should never ever be forgotten, that their
names should be always in people's memory. And they shouldn't
be alongside the names of the terrorists to kill them,
for instance, in the media. They are real people who
had dreams, aspirations, and hope for the future, and that's
all been taken away from them. And actually, also from us.
Adnan Sarwar (24:07):
Thank you. Nadia? Any final thoughts?
Nadia Oweidat (24:10):
Yes. I am a historian of ideas. So, ideas are
incredibly powerful. Ideas could be very harmful, could be very
violent, or they could achieve the opposite impact. We hear
about the billions upon the billions, every single year in
promoting and supporting ideas that create the likes of ISIS.
(24:33):
And we need to invest just as many billions, although
it doesn't take as much to invest in a good
idea, because love is much easier to spread than hate,
actually. In the sanctity of individual sovereignty, that every human
being has sovereignty, that nobody is allowed to violate that
sovereignty, that their soul, their life, their... Imagine if we
(24:56):
support this idea that nobody is allowed to violate another
human being's sovereignty, that every interaction has to be with
consent, with mutual respect. Imagine how powerful that is. I
think that is the way forward, is to support the
ideas that there's no space for the ideas like ISIS's,
(25:16):
that cannot compete with these powerful ideas.
Adnan Sarwar (25:20):
Thank you all for that conversation. And thank you for
your time, and your memories. I've learnt a lot from
you. (foreign language) Thank you, very much. This is the end of our current series
of Talking about Terror. We've looked at violent extremism, Islamist
(25:40):
extremism, in particular, from all sides, trying to explain how
and why terrorists do what they do. I hope we've
helped you understand more about this complex subject, and maybe
the next time you see something on the news about
a terrorist act somewhere in the world, you'll take more
notice, be more engaged, and be less afraid. Because I
can tell you, as I look outside my window here
(26:02):
in Qabala, this is a reality and it's not going away
anytime soon. I'm Adnan Sarwar. Until we meet again, goodbye.
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