September 20, 2021 • 30 mins
What attracts people to violent extremism? How can we prevent radicalisation? And, if someone joins a terrorist organisation, how easy is it for them to leave? We answer all these questions. Plus, we hear from a former Al Qaeda recruiter about why he was drawn to the group, and from a Syrian refugee whose best friend threatened to murder him for not supporting the Daesh cause.
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Episode Transcript
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Adnan Sarwar, (00:00):
Before we begin, this is a podcast about terrorism, which
means we do talk about acts of terror and extreme
violence, sometimes in quite a lot of detail. So you
might find some of the following material upsetting. Hello, I'm
Adnan Sarwar, this is Taking Apart Terror and here's a
job ad with the difference.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Oh, you who believe, answer the call of Allah and his
messenger when he calls you to what gives you life?
Adnan Sarwar, (00:30):
That's part of a 2014 Daesh video. There is no life
without Jihad aimed at inspiring Western Muslims to join them.
And we know that many did. But what inspires people
to respond to calls like this? And what should be
done with those who have, and then committed terrible crimes?
And once they've headed that call, is there any going
(00:51):
back? Or as we are asking in this edition, once
an extremist, always an extremist? To try and answer this
question, I'm joined by an exceptionally knowledgeable panel. Firstly, two
of our regular contributors, the director of The International Center
for the Study of Radicalization and Political Violence at King's
(01:13):
College London, Dr. Shiraz Maher. Hello, Shiraz?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (01:17):
Hi. How are you?
Adnan Sarwar, (01:18):
An Associate Professor of Terrorism and Political Violence at the
University of Leiden. Dr. Joana Cook. Thank you for joining
us, Joanna.
Dr. Joana Cook (01:25):
Hi, how are you?
Adnan Sarwar, (01:26):
Then we have not one but three specialist guests. Dr.
Virginie Andre is an expert in Disengagement and Exit Work
as well as Early Prevention of Radicalization and Extremism. Welcome
to the program Virginie.
Dr. Virginie Andre (01:39):
Hi Adnan.
Adnan Sarwar, (01:40):
Onni Sarvela is a PCVE specialist. That stands for Preventing and
Countering Violent Extremism, specializing in helping young people withdraw from
extremist thinking and violent activities, particularly in his Native Finland.
Hello Onni.
Onni Sarvela (01:56):
Hi.
Adnan Sarwar, (01:56):
And finally, award- winning journalist Rudy Frank, who has reported
on some of the world's most dangerous and difficult war
situations including the camps that are currently home to thousands
of former fighters. Hello, Rudy, welcome to the program.
Rudy Frank (02:10):
Hello.
Adnan Sarwar, (02:11):
So to start with we've borrowed the title of Virginie and
Onni's research once an extremist or is an extremist, and they've put
it as a question. Probably the main question most people
will be wondering about. Is it possible for someone who
has held extremist beliefs and probably taking actions based on
those beliefs to change? Virginie can you help us with that?
Dr. Virginie Andre (02:31):
Absolutely people can change, but it's part of a long
process of disengagement. First of all, it's not a linear
process. It's also usually based on a voluntary basis. There's
a whole process of re- humanization, when it becomes okay
to start hurting other people, usually those individual disconnect from
(02:54):
their humanity and the humanity of their victims. And so
there has to be a whole process of re- humanizing
those individuals that perhaps before you perceive as enemies. And
of course you have also to rebuild a new identity,
which is away from violent extremism, because once you start
(03:14):
joining an extremist group, you embrace that identity and becomes
part of who you are. But as soon as you
exit from the group, the question is who am I?
Some of the factors that lead people to wanting to disengage
from a group can be, for example, the disillusion mentors,
(03:34):
the extremist group, also the physical and emotional extortion from
the dysfunctional violent extremist environment. You may then find yourself
that this is not actually what I had signed up
for, and it may be looking for a way out. And
of course you also have the same way. There are
social relationships and encounters that can lure people into violent
(03:58):
extremism. The same type of social relationships and encounters can
help them to exist violent extremist groups. And very often,
if you have the birth of a child, for instance,
that also can help the person who is becoming a father
or mother to think that perhaps this is not part
(04:19):
of the future anymore. And they may be then looking for
a way out of a violent extremism.
Adnan Sarwar, (04:24):
That has given us an excellent introduction to this subject.
Onni, you've worked with people who are leaving these organizations,
what are the difficulties that you are seeing?
Onni Sarvela (04:36):
First of all, that when you are part of the
group, which you use the violence, then of course at
the first step, there is a security issue. And it's
not only about the person who is trying to exit
the disengage, but also the family and loved ones that
there is always the possibility the former group is threatening
(04:56):
you, or there is a possibility for violence. The one
challenge is that if you start thinking that where you
were, and what you did is not anymore right, then how do
you deal with that? The change is very slow and
the communities or society is not always very welcoming getting
the income from your family, the building up the new
(05:18):
social networks, like if your social networks have narrowed down
to the, only to these extremist groups, it's not only
negative. You built very strong relations, how you leave people
behind who are really literally sometimes willing to kill for
you and all these kind of emotional connections that you
(05:39):
have with the people and environment, which you have to
also deal when you are exiting. You are stepping in
a void, the social void, where it is totally possible
that you are totally alone. And when you start trying to
start building the new relationships, new social networks, and there
is this possibility that they always hear that what have
(06:02):
you done where you have been, and it can ruin the
new social relations. So how you motivate yourself to build
a new life when there is so many obstacles.
Adnan Sarwar, (06:12):
Joana, I wanted to pick up on something Onni just
said there, what have you done? How do societies think
about these people when they come back? Do they want
them back, or do they want to punish them?
Dr. Joana Cook (06:26):
Terrorism in particular is generally one of the types of
criminal activity that is viewed as exceptional. And it does
have a certain type of fear associated with it in
the public mind. And I think there's been a long
tradition of viewing terrace as largely males. And what ISIS
has really shown as well, is that when we're talking about
people who are affiliated with some of these groups, we're
(06:47):
talking about very diverse populations. So whether it's adult males,
whether it's adult females, whether it's children that were taken
or born into the group, these are very complex populations
that each face a very differing level of needs for
support and rehabilitation as they're disengaging from and reintegrating into
these societies. And I think what we're talking as well
(07:10):
about disengaging in the literature around disengagement, we often talk
about cognitive disengagement and we talk about behavioral disengage engagement.
And what those mean is if we're looking at cognitive
disengagement, it means changing the way that you think. And
so in disengagement work, you talk about changing the way
that people think about that, that ideology. If you're looking
(07:32):
at behavioral disengagement you're trying to convince people to change the
type of actions that they're willing to use on behalf
of an ideology or on behalf of a political motivation.
And that's an important part of the discussion as well.
Adnan Sarwar, (07:43):
Rudy, you've spent a lot of time on the ground
talking to former fighters, especially in camps like Al- Hawl
where all the women and children are being held. From
what you've seen, do you think the women there could
be de radicalized?
Rudy Frank (07:57):
There's evolving a new, kind of a small (calibrator) .
You see, you have these women who came to me
and who identified themselves and who wanted to contact us, who
wanted to come back. Who are deradicalizing because they live
through hell and they saw that this was not the
life and they were disillusion. But there isn't the same
(08:18):
amount of women, they're with children who still are in
deep, deep hatred, vis- à-vis society. You see more and
more stories of women who are looked back into this
environment because they have no choice. We are missing an
opportunity to get them out and deradicalizing them, or at
(08:39):
least trying to put them back in a kind of
new life in our society. Our society seems not ready
to take them back even if they know that they
are facing five to 10 years of imprisonment.
Adnan Sarwar, (08:52):
Shiraz, Rudy's talking about society's attitudes here and about law
and imprisonment. Is this really about the law or is
this about what people think?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (09:00):
Public interest is a large component of our legal system.
And at times we do need to have a social
conversation about where we think we as a society stand,
and what we think as a society is the right thing
to do. So you might feel that there is a
sort of moral duty to bring these people back and
(09:23):
to try them. There are two important factors into that, that we need to consider.
The first is that we need to think about issues
of equity and who gets held accountable. The second is
that whilst you, and I might think it's the right
thing to bring aback, frankly, the overwhelming majority of public doesn't think
that, that's the right thing to do. And that is
(09:45):
an important as how the crew you might think it might be an
important consideration in this debate.
Adnan Sarwar, (09:52):
Public opinion, the debate and what should happen, who extremists.
For many of us, it's an abstract thing, an argument
to have round a dinner table. But what about the
people whose lives have been profoundly affected by organizations like
Daish and their recruitment drives. Rafad he's asked us not
to use his second name, risked everything, to leave Syria
(10:14):
in a tiny boat in 2015 of the things that
drove him to leave his whole life behind was what
happened to his friend Masin, whom he'd known since they
were seven. It all started when Masin's girlfriend suffered terribly
at the hands of the Syrian government,
Rafad (10:30):
She lost a huge part of her own family. That's
what made him decide. " Okay, I want to take the
revenge against the government." And he decided to give an
up on his future and to have a gun, to
protect the family. And he was a believer, very normal believer.
Adnan Sarwar, (10:52):
Rafad heard and Masin had, had contact with some Jihadis,
but he didn't know exactly what was happening until one
day when he was sitting in an internet cafe,
Rafad (11:01):
I opened my Facebook and I was literally shocked because
I saw a post from him that he's officially saying
that he's from Daish he was like threatened everybody and talking, "
Hey, everybody needs to do it the right way." And
I was literally sweating because I hope nobody looks in
(11:22):
my screen because only this reason would be enough to
be killed.
Adnan Sarwar, (11:28):
By the time they actually spoke, it was clear things
had changed a lot.
Rafad (11:33):
It talked very different that everybody needs to fight. And
this way is the only way. And if you don't do
it, so you don't care about your family, that they
will be killed, or be raped, or so on. And
then just to turn, he will punish his own friends.
(11:57):
And he told me if I don't want to join
him, he needs to kill me. It's hard for him.
He loved me once, but this is the right way.
Adnan Sarwar, (12:09):
When Rafa escaped to Germany in 2015 for Masin, this
was the last straw.
Rafad (12:14):
He was very disappointed and very, very angry. You decide
to escape. How could you do it? You need to
be killed. You didn't deserve to be alive and so
on. And he promised me that he will kill our
friends that stayed there and didn't join him. And one
year later.I think one year later he killed one of our friends.
(12:42):
Yeah, then I realized that the friend, which I knew
it's no longer existed.
Adnan Sarwar, (12:58):
Virtually. What about the court of public opinion? There are people
who aren't interested in things like a fair trial or
the rule of law. They just want these terrorists dealt
with in the harshest possible way. How do people at
you who are working in this field? In fact, what do
you say to them? What do you say to those people?
Dr. Joana Cook (13:13):
I think when need to remind ourselves and the public need
to remember that we are democracies. People are entitled to
fair trial, howeve horrific the crime may be. We still
uphold certain values. And if we don't, we are actually
falling into the kind of narratives that is being put
forward, like organizations, such as Daish when they are recruiting
(13:37):
people saying that we are corrupted democracies, corrupted governments. So
we are actually playing the game of those terrorist organizations.
So of course, people need to be prosecuted, but they
need to have access to fair trial. And also we
have to do a lot of work around media reporting
(13:58):
on terrorism and how we are informing the public and
trying to stay away from the polarization of society and communities.
Adnan Sarwar, (14:06):
Rudy you've reported on these things a lot. Do you
agree with that, that the media should be doing better?
Rudy Frank (14:10):
You are right about the role of the media towards
the Muslim community. Some of us are fighting against this,
but the only moments that Muslim fellow brothers are portrayed
in the media, it's when they are a problem. From practical experience,
we try to give a human face to try to
(14:32):
humanize these fighters these women, these children, the federal prosecutors
in Belgium, they were on the same level as I
was, we in Belgium we have the possibility to trial
them and still the general media could support this. We
lost control. You have no idea what the avalanche of
hatred came out of social media and managed to manipulate
(14:57):
the public opinion. While on the practical level, the success
rate of the deradicalization after five years of prison is
high. They say here that 90% of the women and 80%
of the male, it was successful to reintegrate it. So,
but they are not prepared to listen.
Adnan Sarwar, (15:19):
Joanna.
Dr. Joana Cook (15:20):
We're talking about Western European countries and the lack of
proactive responses to bring back these populations. But I think
what's also interesting here is that there are a number
of countries globally who have been very active in actually
going over, taking these populations back home and actively leading
government programs to rehabilitate and reintegrate these. One of the
(15:43):
most active globally has been Kazakhstan who went and repatriated
hundreds of their citizens, including women and minors charged some
of the women with criminal activities. They were prosecuted. Others
have been rehabilitated, are being returned and reintegrated to different
extents Kosovo of was another interesting example of that. And
obviously these national contexts are all quite different, quite unique.
(16:05):
And I think those examples are interesting ones to highlight
as well. So
Adnan Sarwar, (16:09):
So Shiraz, if we going down the prosecution route, are
we set up to do that?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (16:13):
What's interesting is that in the UK, almost everyone who's
actually committed a terrorist attack who has then been prosecuted
has actually been prosecuted under existing criminal legislation and not
under the terrorism act. So offenses against the person, for
example, that makes it illegal for you and I to
(16:34):
go out and stab somebody. And so those who argue
against counter- terrorism legislation in this country point out that
in fact, existing criminal law is adequate, actually. In fact,
the terrorism act pulls us into a whole new space,
as they would say, " I would not agree, but a
thought crime and thoughts in that way." So I think that does speak to your
(16:55):
broader point though, about this othering terrorist actors.
Adnan Sarwar, (17:00):
Onni you're very directly involved in helping people deradicalize. And
am I right in thinking that there are former extremists
former, as you call them, who also help you out
with this?
Onni Sarvela (17:09):
I would say that there is a certain kind of
number of people who are disengaging that's a part of their kind
of redemption work that they do, that they feel that
they owe, that they have to give back visiting the
school, sharing their stories. They can also work as a
mentors. They can bring hope for the people that it's
not easy process, but I've been going through it. I can
(17:32):
give you the insights, what process it is. One is
also the bridge building like that. Of course, the farmers
through their own experiences, that they can connect the communities
and people giving their opinions and their insights when you
are doing other native messaging or counter messaging and then what
works, what doesn't work. But of course that it's very
(17:53):
important that there is a duty of care. First of all, that
it doesn't kind of create a possibility to retraumatize or
relapse in their own process. Also that if you do the semi public
or public appearances, that what are the consequences, the videos, or this that they stay in the internet.
(18:13):
Of course, there's a whole, another thing about that. Do
you want to become labeled as a former? Is it
something that you would really want to build your future
identity on?
Adnan Sarwar, (18:25):
Virginie, Onni is talking about former and the experience of
when people are trying to leave, but you are involved
with stopping people joining the first place. How'd you do that?
Dr. Virginie Andre (18:35):
When we talk about terrorism and violent extremism these days, we always
talk about religiously motivated extremism. And in short way, thinking
Islamic extremism. And it's quite problematic because we're falling into
that the discussion of polarization. There's not just Daish extremism,
there's also right wing extremism. I work for Victoria University
(18:58):
in Australia for us it was a very hard hit
to see what happened in Christchurch New Zealand, because the
perpetrator was actually in Australian. If we put out one
fire, we're not actually tackling what is behind that appeal
to violent extremism. So today's Daish tomorrow it will be
(19:18):
something else. And before Daish we were talking about Al-
Qaeda. We need as governments, as researchers, as practitioners to
really look along at hard about what are those vulnerabilities
that make those individuals tick. What we've learned with ISIS
is that there is not one pattern in terms of
radicalization, but we were very surprised to find that we
(19:41):
had people as young as 13, 14 years old, wanting
to go and join ISIS and go to Syria. Then
the question becomes, how is it possible? That as a
society we failed our young people, that they see Daesh
as the possible future? And unfortunately it requires a lot
(20:01):
of reform, access to employment, access to education, but unfortunately,
reforms such as these are not very sexy in the
political arena.
Adnan Sarwar, (20:14):
So Shiraz is it a case of include me or I
will go and find somebody who will?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (20:18):
I don't think it's as straightforward as that. Clearly there
are huge structural issues that are underlying a lot of
this in terms of integration, how people find their identity
and connect the issue becomes how do we create more
cohesive societies, societies to which people wants to belong societies,
(20:39):
to which people identify and feel a sense of belonging
and protection. And I don't think that is necessarily straightforward
or easy one, or indeed one that particularly just affixed
young Muslims in the west. These are fairly pervasive and
(20:59):
systemic questions for our societies to which unfortunately, I would
say two things. One is that there's no quick solution. And
B this is something that is likely to be inherent
as a generational struggle for, I'd say the rest of our lives.
Adnan Sarwar, (21:18):
And Onni, you wanted to come in there?
Onni Sarvela (21:21):
Sometimes it's not like that people became socially excluded. Some
people born socially excluded before they ever heard about any
radical thoughts that they have, the attitudes toward the government
or the mainstream society that they take proud out of it
to be outside of it. But of course not all
(21:41):
the radicalized or extreme people are coming from this advantages
background. There can be the lots of other reasons. Also, when
people from all social classes can be radicalized and become extremist.
Adnan Sarwar, (21:57):
What is it that makes the extremist message stick? How
can we understand its appeal? You remember Jesse Morton from
our second episode, he was once a recruiter for Al-
Qaeda until he was sentenced to 11 and a half
years in jail. He understands some of those reasons. He
talks about being abused as a child about how he
(22:17):
ran away from home at the age of 15, but
also about his disillusionment with the society he was living in.
Jesse Morton (22:25):
I think that much of what I grew up around
as a traumatized individual, what made me susceptible to radicalization,
but also that the context of our culture was not
conducive to healing. I had no stability until I found
Islam and suddenly are praying five times a day with
structure. I went from being a homeless runaway kid with
a good brain and a good heart to finding people
(22:47):
that instead of thinking about what next consumer purchase they
were going to make, I would instead be in study
circles called ḥalaqāt laying with my head on the lap
of a brother, memorizing Quran and feeling connected by the
spiritual empowerment of the Islamic tradition in an era of
globalization, where there was a book called Jihad versus McWorld.
(23:09):
It seemed in fact like jihadists were promoting substance. And
that the globalization that the United States was leading was
promoting shopping and McDonald's. And then, because you can't just
have stability take away the trauma. And unfortunately, I ran
into GIS preachers that basically gave me trauma treatment, if
(23:34):
you will, by showing me love and giving me meaning
and significance in camaraderie, I had never experienced. I just
took all of that pain and anger that I held
from my own society, thinking that we were becoming dim
witted fools that only cared about what we could purchase
into something that I found spiritually exhilarating. That is the
(23:57):
process of terrorism. So you wouldn't even have to tell
an individual to become a terrorist. You would just have
to give them the theological and sociopolitical or justifications to
do so. The ideas can infect an individual to the
degree where they come to the conclusion that I am
a soldier for this cause. And that's the way that
I am going to contribute to it.
Adnan Sarwar, (24:17):
Jesse's focus is now on using all of his experience
to try and prevent extremism. His organization is called Parallel Networks.
And for a very good reason.
Jesse Morton (24:27):
You have to give a person a new network to
belong to. And that network has to be built on
principles antithetical to hate and extremism, but it still has
to offer meaning significance, purpose, and comradery, understanding the importance
of not just having an anti Jihadist message, but having
an alternative message that is a coherent, comprehensive worldview that
(24:48):
can argue against the message of the Jihadist. But that can
also show the futility of turning towards terrorism to try
to attain some idyllic objective that ends up to be Barbaras.
Adnan Sarwar, (25:03):
So I think we've gotten some of the way there
in trying to understand why people become extremists and how
we can stop them doing that in the first place.
Can I just ask each of you, if you can
just give me a final thought on the kind of
direction we need to be going when it comes to
thinking about deradicalization, Rudy, let me start with you.
Rudy Frank (25:20):
Inclusion, inclusion, inclusion give this generations a seat at the
table. I have seen too many profile of people from
all kinds of levels in society who went radicalizing and
went out. I can see the same thing now happening
with extreme right young people who are doing the same
thing, listen to them, give them a seat at the
table, take them seriously, and give them a role in
(25:44):
our mainstream media. Get them out of this toxic social
media environment.
Adnan Sarwar, (25:49):
Joana.
Dr. Joana Cook (25:50):
One thing I really highlight in my work is the value
of a gender lens. I think it helps us better
understand the distinct and sometimes unique motivations and pathways that
young men and young women might face children might face
as they go into these groups and the circumstances under
which they might be able to disengage from those. It
also means that when they're reintegrating back into their communities,
(26:10):
a gender lens can really help us think more robustly
about how that might be a bit different for a
young woman or an older man, and really tailor those
kind of responses and understanding a bit more appropriately.
Adnan Sarwar, (26:23):
Thank you, Virginie.
Dr. Virginie Andre (26:24):
I will join Rudy when he talked about the inclusion.
Inclusion is really important. It's very hard today, especially among
certain communities to have discussions around, for example, the notion
of Jihad and that kind of discussion is also now
impacting on their own understanding of young Muslims, for example,
(26:44):
and how they understand one of the pillars of their
own fate, which is actually a beautiful pillar within the
Muslim fate. If we, today, we talk about Jihad. It's
not a dirty word. We need to be able to
open that space to have the conversation, and that's really
important, a safe space, and that also leads to inclusion. And
the next thing I want to say is that we
(27:06):
can combat violent extremism as much as we like, but
as long as we do not address the root causes,
the vulnerabilities, we will just be the firefighters, putting out
the fires and not actually going at the source of
those particular fires.
Adnan Sarwar, (27:25):
Okay. Shiraz.
Dr. Shiraz Maher (27:28):
Is a highly complex phenomenon. Even with those who elected
to join ISIS, you could see a different typology amongst
different types of people who were motivated. And for some
people, it's a very primitive thing, whether that's the attraction to the
violence and to that sense of utopi,a for others it's more
(27:52):
ideological, for others it's more intellectual and so on. And
so I think in all of our discussions about this,
we need to foreground that appreciation into the same aspects
of deradicalization and looking at countering this stuff. And just
as we don't take a one size fits all approach
(28:14):
to the reduction of crime, I think there is this
search within the CBE community to find this panacea, and
frankly, it doesn't exist.
Adnan Sarwar, (28:25):
Oni.
Onni Sarvela (28:27):
When it comes to the prevention, we have to win
hearts, not the minds. We have to be willing to
engage with you. We have to be willing to be
interested about your life and why you think, how you
think. And especially when it comes to the young people,
that when they start expressing these kind of thoughts, which
are for the adults, the kind of alarming or worrying, then
(28:48):
the very easily the adults go with the pack, this kind of panic
mode. But with the young people, it's also part of the identity
building to look into different kind of thoughts. And, and
it's very important that in those moments that you are
present and you are offering other natives to be there,
to be present, to be willing, to engage and stay there,
(29:09):
even if it's a difficult conversation. For me it is
like giving me the role that I'm deradicalizing people. But
in my work in exit work, I cannot really do that.
I can provide you certain things to help your process,
but it's your process. And you have to take the
responsibility what you have done, but you also have to take the responsibility
(29:30):
to build your future.
Adnan Sarwar, (29:35):
I'd like to thank Virginie Andre, Onni Sarvela, Rudy Frank, Shiraz
Maher, Joana Cook, Rafa, and Jesse Morton for helping us
understand something of the complexity of the journey into and
out of extremism. Once an extremist, always an extremist? Not
necessarily. That's it for this edition of Taking Apart Terror
(29:58):
search for as wherever you get your podcast. And if
you're enjoying the series, please do leave us a star
rating and a review. It makes a huge difference to
how many people find us and of course, follow or subscribe.
So you don't miss an episode. Like the next one,
where we ask, " Is there life after terror?") And look
at how people and communities go about recovering from the
(30:18):
terrible things that violent extremisim inflicts on them. I'm Adnan
Sarwar till the next time. Goodbye.
Before we begin, this is a podcast about terrorism, which
means we do talk about acts of terror and extreme
violence, sometimes in quite a lot of detail. So you
might find some of the following material upsetting. Hello, I'm
Adnan Sarwar, this is Taking Apart Terror and here's a
job ad with the difference.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Oh, you who believe, answer the call of Allah and his
messenger when he calls you to what gives you life?
Adnan Sarwar, (00:30):
That's part of a 2014 Daesh video. There is no life
without Jihad aimed at inspiring Western Muslims to join them.
And we know that many did. But what inspires people
to respond to calls like this? And what should be
done with those who have, and then committed terrible crimes?
And once they've headed that call, is there any going
(00:51):
back? Or as we are asking in this edition, once
an extremist, always an extremist? To try and answer this
question, I'm joined by an exceptionally knowledgeable panel. Firstly, two
of our regular contributors, the director of The International Center
for the Study of Radicalization and Political Violence at King's
(01:13):
College London, Dr. Shiraz Maher. Hello, Shiraz?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (01:17):
Hi. How are you?
Adnan Sarwar, (01:18):
An Associate Professor of Terrorism and Political Violence at the
University of Leiden. Dr. Joana Cook. Thank you for joining
us, Joanna.
Dr. Joana Cook (01:25):
Hi, how are you?
Adnan Sarwar, (01:26):
Then we have not one but three specialist guests. Dr.
Virginie Andre is an expert in Disengagement and Exit Work
as well as Early Prevention of Radicalization and Extremism. Welcome
to the program Virginie.
Dr. Virginie Andre (01:39):
Hi Adnan.
Adnan Sarwar, (01:40):
Onni Sarvela is a PCVE specialist. That stands for Preventing and
Countering Violent Extremism, specializing in helping young people withdraw from
extremist thinking and violent activities, particularly in his Native Finland.
Hello Onni.
Onni Sarvela (01:56):
Hi.
Adnan Sarwar, (01:56):
And finally, award- winning journalist Rudy Frank, who has reported
on some of the world's most dangerous and difficult war
situations including the camps that are currently home to thousands
of former fighters. Hello, Rudy, welcome to the program.
Rudy Frank (02:10):
Hello.
Adnan Sarwar, (02:11):
So to start with we've borrowed the title of Virginie and
Onni's research once an extremist or is an extremist, and they've put
it as a question. Probably the main question most people
will be wondering about. Is it possible for someone who
has held extremist beliefs and probably taking actions based on
those beliefs to change? Virginie can you help us with that?
Dr. Virginie Andre (02:31):
Absolutely people can change, but it's part of a long
process of disengagement. First of all, it's not a linear
process. It's also usually based on a voluntary basis. There's
a whole process of re- humanization, when it becomes okay
to start hurting other people, usually those individual disconnect from
(02:54):
their humanity and the humanity of their victims. And so
there has to be a whole process of re- humanizing
those individuals that perhaps before you perceive as enemies. And
of course you have also to rebuild a new identity,
which is away from violent extremism, because once you start
(03:14):
joining an extremist group, you embrace that identity and becomes
part of who you are. But as soon as you
exit from the group, the question is who am I?
Some of the factors that lead people to wanting to disengage
from a group can be, for example, the disillusion mentors,
(03:34):
the extremist group, also the physical and emotional extortion from
the dysfunctional violent extremist environment. You may then find yourself
that this is not actually what I had signed up
for, and it may be looking for a way out. And
of course you also have the same way. There are
social relationships and encounters that can lure people into violent
(03:58):
extremism. The same type of social relationships and encounters can
help them to exist violent extremist groups. And very often,
if you have the birth of a child, for instance,
that also can help the person who is becoming a father
or mother to think that perhaps this is not part
(04:19):
of the future anymore. And they may be then looking for
a way out of a violent extremism.
Adnan Sarwar, (04:24):
That has given us an excellent introduction to this subject.
Onni, you've worked with people who are leaving these organizations,
what are the difficulties that you are seeing?
Onni Sarvela (04:36):
First of all, that when you are part of the
group, which you use the violence, then of course at
the first step, there is a security issue. And it's
not only about the person who is trying to exit
the disengage, but also the family and loved ones that
there is always the possibility the former group is threatening
(04:56):
you, or there is a possibility for violence. The one
challenge is that if you start thinking that where you
were, and what you did is not anymore right, then how do
you deal with that? The change is very slow and
the communities or society is not always very welcoming getting
the income from your family, the building up the new
(05:18):
social networks, like if your social networks have narrowed down
to the, only to these extremist groups, it's not only
negative. You built very strong relations, how you leave people
behind who are really literally sometimes willing to kill for
you and all these kind of emotional connections that you
(05:39):
have with the people and environment, which you have to
also deal when you are exiting. You are stepping in
a void, the social void, where it is totally possible
that you are totally alone. And when you start trying to
start building the new relationships, new social networks, and there
is this possibility that they always hear that what have
(06:02):
you done where you have been, and it can ruin the
new social relations. So how you motivate yourself to build
a new life when there is so many obstacles.
Adnan Sarwar, (06:12):
Joana, I wanted to pick up on something Onni just
said there, what have you done? How do societies think
about these people when they come back? Do they want
them back, or do they want to punish them?
Dr. Joana Cook (06:26):
Terrorism in particular is generally one of the types of
criminal activity that is viewed as exceptional. And it does
have a certain type of fear associated with it in
the public mind. And I think there's been a long
tradition of viewing terrace as largely males. And what ISIS
has really shown as well, is that when we're talking about
people who are affiliated with some of these groups, we're
(06:47):
talking about very diverse populations. So whether it's adult males,
whether it's adult females, whether it's children that were taken
or born into the group, these are very complex populations
that each face a very differing level of needs for
support and rehabilitation as they're disengaging from and reintegrating into
these societies. And I think what we're talking as well
(07:10):
about disengaging in the literature around disengagement, we often talk
about cognitive disengagement and we talk about behavioral disengage engagement.
And what those mean is if we're looking at cognitive
disengagement, it means changing the way that you think. And
so in disengagement work, you talk about changing the way
that people think about that, that ideology. If you're looking
(07:32):
at behavioral disengagement you're trying to convince people to change the
type of actions that they're willing to use on behalf
of an ideology or on behalf of a political motivation.
And that's an important part of the discussion as well.
Adnan Sarwar, (07:43):
Rudy, you've spent a lot of time on the ground
talking to former fighters, especially in camps like Al- Hawl
where all the women and children are being held. From
what you've seen, do you think the women there could
be de radicalized?
Rudy Frank (07:57):
There's evolving a new, kind of a small (calibrator) .
You see, you have these women who came to me
and who identified themselves and who wanted to contact us, who
wanted to come back. Who are deradicalizing because they live
through hell and they saw that this was not the
life and they were disillusion. But there isn't the same
(08:18):
amount of women, they're with children who still are in
deep, deep hatred, vis- à-vis society. You see more and
more stories of women who are looked back into this
environment because they have no choice. We are missing an
opportunity to get them out and deradicalizing them, or at
(08:39):
least trying to put them back in a kind of
new life in our society. Our society seems not ready
to take them back even if they know that they
are facing five to 10 years of imprisonment.
Adnan Sarwar, (08:52):
Shiraz, Rudy's talking about society's attitudes here and about law
and imprisonment. Is this really about the law or is
this about what people think?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (09:00):
Public interest is a large component of our legal system.
And at times we do need to have a social
conversation about where we think we as a society stand,
and what we think as a society is the right thing
to do. So you might feel that there is a
sort of moral duty to bring these people back and
(09:23):
to try them. There are two important factors into that, that we need to consider.
The first is that we need to think about issues
of equity and who gets held accountable. The second is
that whilst you, and I might think it's the right
thing to bring aback, frankly, the overwhelming majority of public doesn't think
that, that's the right thing to do. And that is
(09:45):
an important as how the crew you might think it might be an
important consideration in this debate.
Adnan Sarwar, (09:52):
Public opinion, the debate and what should happen, who extremists.
For many of us, it's an abstract thing, an argument
to have round a dinner table. But what about the
people whose lives have been profoundly affected by organizations like
Daish and their recruitment drives. Rafad he's asked us not
to use his second name, risked everything, to leave Syria
(10:14):
in a tiny boat in 2015 of the things that
drove him to leave his whole life behind was what
happened to his friend Masin, whom he'd known since they
were seven. It all started when Masin's girlfriend suffered terribly
at the hands of the Syrian government,
Rafad (10:30):
She lost a huge part of her own family. That's
what made him decide. " Okay, I want to take the
revenge against the government." And he decided to give an
up on his future and to have a gun, to
protect the family. And he was a believer, very normal believer.
Adnan Sarwar, (10:52):
Rafad heard and Masin had, had contact with some Jihadis,
but he didn't know exactly what was happening until one
day when he was sitting in an internet cafe,
Rafad (11:01):
I opened my Facebook and I was literally shocked because
I saw a post from him that he's officially saying
that he's from Daish he was like threatened everybody and talking, "
Hey, everybody needs to do it the right way." And
I was literally sweating because I hope nobody looks in
(11:22):
my screen because only this reason would be enough to
be killed.
Adnan Sarwar, (11:28):
By the time they actually spoke, it was clear things
had changed a lot.
Rafad (11:33):
It talked very different that everybody needs to fight. And
this way is the only way. And if you don't do
it, so you don't care about your family, that they
will be killed, or be raped, or so on. And
then just to turn, he will punish his own friends.
(11:57):
And he told me if I don't want to join
him, he needs to kill me. It's hard for him.
He loved me once, but this is the right way.
Adnan Sarwar, (12:09):
When Rafa escaped to Germany in 2015 for Masin, this
was the last straw.
Rafad (12:14):
He was very disappointed and very, very angry. You decide
to escape. How could you do it? You need to
be killed. You didn't deserve to be alive and so
on. And he promised me that he will kill our
friends that stayed there and didn't join him. And one
year later.I think one year later he killed one of our friends.
(12:42):
Yeah, then I realized that the friend, which I knew
it's no longer existed.
Adnan Sarwar, (12:58):
Virtually. What about the court of public opinion? There are people
who aren't interested in things like a fair trial or
the rule of law. They just want these terrorists dealt
with in the harshest possible way. How do people at
you who are working in this field? In fact, what do
you say to them? What do you say to those people?
Dr. Joana Cook (13:13):
I think when need to remind ourselves and the public need
to remember that we are democracies. People are entitled to
fair trial, howeve horrific the crime may be. We still
uphold certain values. And if we don't, we are actually
falling into the kind of narratives that is being put
forward, like organizations, such as Daish when they are recruiting
(13:37):
people saying that we are corrupted democracies, corrupted governments. So
we are actually playing the game of those terrorist organizations.
So of course, people need to be prosecuted, but they
need to have access to fair trial. And also we
have to do a lot of work around media reporting
(13:58):
on terrorism and how we are informing the public and
trying to stay away from the polarization of society and communities.
Adnan Sarwar, (14:06):
Rudy you've reported on these things a lot. Do you
agree with that, that the media should be doing better?
Rudy Frank (14:10):
You are right about the role of the media towards
the Muslim community. Some of us are fighting against this,
but the only moments that Muslim fellow brothers are portrayed
in the media, it's when they are a problem. From practical experience,
we try to give a human face to try to
(14:32):
humanize these fighters these women, these children, the federal prosecutors
in Belgium, they were on the same level as I
was, we in Belgium we have the possibility to trial
them and still the general media could support this. We
lost control. You have no idea what the avalanche of
hatred came out of social media and managed to manipulate
(14:57):
the public opinion. While on the practical level, the success
rate of the deradicalization after five years of prison is
high. They say here that 90% of the women and 80%
of the male, it was successful to reintegrate it. So,
but they are not prepared to listen.
Adnan Sarwar, (15:19):
Joanna.
Dr. Joana Cook (15:20):
We're talking about Western European countries and the lack of
proactive responses to bring back these populations. But I think
what's also interesting here is that there are a number
of countries globally who have been very active in actually
going over, taking these populations back home and actively leading
government programs to rehabilitate and reintegrate these. One of the
(15:43):
most active globally has been Kazakhstan who went and repatriated
hundreds of their citizens, including women and minors charged some
of the women with criminal activities. They were prosecuted. Others
have been rehabilitated, are being returned and reintegrated to different
extents Kosovo of was another interesting example of that. And
obviously these national contexts are all quite different, quite unique.
(16:05):
And I think those examples are interesting ones to highlight
as well. So
Adnan Sarwar, (16:09):
So Shiraz, if we going down the prosecution route, are
we set up to do that?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (16:13):
What's interesting is that in the UK, almost everyone who's
actually committed a terrorist attack who has then been prosecuted
has actually been prosecuted under existing criminal legislation and not
under the terrorism act. So offenses against the person, for
example, that makes it illegal for you and I to
(16:34):
go out and stab somebody. And so those who argue
against counter- terrorism legislation in this country point out that
in fact, existing criminal law is adequate, actually. In fact,
the terrorism act pulls us into a whole new space,
as they would say, " I would not agree, but a
thought crime and thoughts in that way." So I think that does speak to your
(16:55):
broader point though, about this othering terrorist actors.
Adnan Sarwar, (17:00):
Onni you're very directly involved in helping people deradicalize. And
am I right in thinking that there are former extremists
former, as you call them, who also help you out
with this?
Onni Sarvela (17:09):
I would say that there is a certain kind of
number of people who are disengaging that's a part of their kind
of redemption work that they do, that they feel that
they owe, that they have to give back visiting the
school, sharing their stories. They can also work as a
mentors. They can bring hope for the people that it's
not easy process, but I've been going through it. I can
(17:32):
give you the insights, what process it is. One is
also the bridge building like that. Of course, the farmers
through their own experiences, that they can connect the communities
and people giving their opinions and their insights when you
are doing other native messaging or counter messaging and then what
works, what doesn't work. But of course that it's very
(17:53):
important that there is a duty of care. First of all, that
it doesn't kind of create a possibility to retraumatize or
relapse in their own process. Also that if you do the semi public
or public appearances, that what are the consequences, the videos, or this that they stay in the internet.
(18:13):
Of course, there's a whole, another thing about that. Do
you want to become labeled as a former? Is it
something that you would really want to build your future
identity on?
Adnan Sarwar, (18:25):
Virginie, Onni is talking about former and the experience of
when people are trying to leave, but you are involved
with stopping people joining the first place. How'd you do that?
Dr. Virginie Andre (18:35):
When we talk about terrorism and violent extremism these days, we always
talk about religiously motivated extremism. And in short way, thinking
Islamic extremism. And it's quite problematic because we're falling into
that the discussion of polarization. There's not just Daish extremism,
there's also right wing extremism. I work for Victoria University
(18:58):
in Australia for us it was a very hard hit
to see what happened in Christchurch New Zealand, because the
perpetrator was actually in Australian. If we put out one
fire, we're not actually tackling what is behind that appeal
to violent extremism. So today's Daish tomorrow it will be
(19:18):
something else. And before Daish we were talking about Al-
Qaeda. We need as governments, as researchers, as practitioners to
really look along at hard about what are those vulnerabilities
that make those individuals tick. What we've learned with ISIS
is that there is not one pattern in terms of
radicalization, but we were very surprised to find that we
(19:41):
had people as young as 13, 14 years old, wanting
to go and join ISIS and go to Syria. Then
the question becomes, how is it possible? That as a
society we failed our young people, that they see Daesh
as the possible future? And unfortunately it requires a lot
(20:01):
of reform, access to employment, access to education, but unfortunately,
reforms such as these are not very sexy in the
political arena.
Adnan Sarwar, (20:14):
So Shiraz is it a case of include me or I
will go and find somebody who will?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (20:18):
I don't think it's as straightforward as that. Clearly there
are huge structural issues that are underlying a lot of
this in terms of integration, how people find their identity
and connect the issue becomes how do we create more
cohesive societies, societies to which people wants to belong societies,
(20:39):
to which people identify and feel a sense of belonging
and protection. And I don't think that is necessarily straightforward
or easy one, or indeed one that particularly just affixed
young Muslims in the west. These are fairly pervasive and
(20:59):
systemic questions for our societies to which unfortunately, I would
say two things. One is that there's no quick solution. And
B this is something that is likely to be inherent
as a generational struggle for, I'd say the rest of our lives.
Adnan Sarwar, (21:18):
And Onni, you wanted to come in there?
Onni Sarvela (21:21):
Sometimes it's not like that people became socially excluded. Some
people born socially excluded before they ever heard about any
radical thoughts that they have, the attitudes toward the government
or the mainstream society that they take proud out of it
to be outside of it. But of course not all
(21:41):
the radicalized or extreme people are coming from this advantages
background. There can be the lots of other reasons. Also, when
people from all social classes can be radicalized and become extremist.
Adnan Sarwar, (21:57):
What is it that makes the extremist message stick? How
can we understand its appeal? You remember Jesse Morton from
our second episode, he was once a recruiter for Al-
Qaeda until he was sentenced to 11 and a half
years in jail. He understands some of those reasons. He
talks about being abused as a child about how he
(22:17):
ran away from home at the age of 15, but
also about his disillusionment with the society he was living in.
Jesse Morton (22:25):
I think that much of what I grew up around
as a traumatized individual, what made me susceptible to radicalization,
but also that the context of our culture was not
conducive to healing. I had no stability until I found
Islam and suddenly are praying five times a day with
structure. I went from being a homeless runaway kid with
a good brain and a good heart to finding people
(22:47):
that instead of thinking about what next consumer purchase they
were going to make, I would instead be in study
circles called ḥalaqāt laying with my head on the lap
of a brother, memorizing Quran and feeling connected by the
spiritual empowerment of the Islamic tradition in an era of
globalization, where there was a book called Jihad versus McWorld.
(23:09):
It seemed in fact like jihadists were promoting substance. And
that the globalization that the United States was leading was
promoting shopping and McDonald's. And then, because you can't just
have stability take away the trauma. And unfortunately, I ran
into GIS preachers that basically gave me trauma treatment, if
(23:34):
you will, by showing me love and giving me meaning
and significance in camaraderie, I had never experienced. I just
took all of that pain and anger that I held
from my own society, thinking that we were becoming dim
witted fools that only cared about what we could purchase
into something that I found spiritually exhilarating. That is the
(23:57):
process of terrorism. So you wouldn't even have to tell
an individual to become a terrorist. You would just have
to give them the theological and sociopolitical or justifications to
do so. The ideas can infect an individual to the
degree where they come to the conclusion that I am
a soldier for this cause. And that's the way that
I am going to contribute to it.
Adnan Sarwar, (24:17):
Jesse's focus is now on using all of his experience
to try and prevent extremism. His organization is called Parallel Networks.
And for a very good reason.
Jesse Morton (24:27):
You have to give a person a new network to
belong to. And that network has to be built on
principles antithetical to hate and extremism, but it still has
to offer meaning significance, purpose, and comradery, understanding the importance
of not just having an anti Jihadist message, but having
an alternative message that is a coherent, comprehensive worldview that
(24:48):
can argue against the message of the Jihadist. But that can
also show the futility of turning towards terrorism to try
to attain some idyllic objective that ends up to be Barbaras.
Adnan Sarwar, (25:03):
So I think we've gotten some of the way there
in trying to understand why people become extremists and how
we can stop them doing that in the first place.
Can I just ask each of you, if you can
just give me a final thought on the kind of
direction we need to be going when it comes to
thinking about deradicalization, Rudy, let me start with you.
Rudy Frank (25:20):
Inclusion, inclusion, inclusion give this generations a seat at the
table. I have seen too many profile of people from
all kinds of levels in society who went radicalizing and
went out. I can see the same thing now happening
with extreme right young people who are doing the same
thing, listen to them, give them a seat at the
table, take them seriously, and give them a role in
(25:44):
our mainstream media. Get them out of this toxic social
media environment.
Adnan Sarwar, (25:49):
Joana.
Dr. Joana Cook (25:50):
One thing I really highlight in my work is the value
of a gender lens. I think it helps us better
understand the distinct and sometimes unique motivations and pathways that
young men and young women might face children might face
as they go into these groups and the circumstances under
which they might be able to disengage from those. It
also means that when they're reintegrating back into their communities,
(26:10):
a gender lens can really help us think more robustly
about how that might be a bit different for a
young woman or an older man, and really tailor those
kind of responses and understanding a bit more appropriately.
Adnan Sarwar, (26:23):
Thank you, Virginie.
Dr. Virginie Andre (26:24):
I will join Rudy when he talked about the inclusion.
Inclusion is really important. It's very hard today, especially among
certain communities to have discussions around, for example, the notion
of Jihad and that kind of discussion is also now
impacting on their own understanding of young Muslims, for example,
(26:44):
and how they understand one of the pillars of their
own fate, which is actually a beautiful pillar within the
Muslim fate. If we, today, we talk about Jihad. It's
not a dirty word. We need to be able to
open that space to have the conversation, and that's really
important, a safe space, and that also leads to inclusion. And
the next thing I want to say is that we
(27:06):
can combat violent extremism as much as we like, but
as long as we do not address the root causes,
the vulnerabilities, we will just be the firefighters, putting out
the fires and not actually going at the source of
those particular fires.
Adnan Sarwar, (27:25):
Okay. Shiraz.
Dr. Shiraz Maher (27:28):
Is a highly complex phenomenon. Even with those who elected
to join ISIS, you could see a different typology amongst
different types of people who were motivated. And for some
people, it's a very primitive thing, whether that's the attraction to the
violence and to that sense of utopi,a for others it's more
(27:52):
ideological, for others it's more intellectual and so on. And
so I think in all of our discussions about this,
we need to foreground that appreciation into the same aspects
of deradicalization and looking at countering this stuff. And just
as we don't take a one size fits all approach
(28:14):
to the reduction of crime, I think there is this
search within the CBE community to find this panacea, and
frankly, it doesn't exist.
Adnan Sarwar, (28:25):
Oni.
Onni Sarvela (28:27):
When it comes to the prevention, we have to win
hearts, not the minds. We have to be willing to
engage with you. We have to be willing to be
interested about your life and why you think, how you
think. And especially when it comes to the young people,
that when they start expressing these kind of thoughts, which
are for the adults, the kind of alarming or worrying, then
(28:48):
the very easily the adults go with the pack, this kind of panic
mode. But with the young people, it's also part of the identity
building to look into different kind of thoughts. And, and
it's very important that in those moments that you are
present and you are offering other natives to be there,
to be present, to be willing, to engage and stay there,
(29:09):
even if it's a difficult conversation. For me it is
like giving me the role that I'm deradicalizing people. But
in my work in exit work, I cannot really do that.
I can provide you certain things to help your process,
but it's your process. And you have to take the
responsibility what you have done, but you also have to take the responsibility
(29:30):
to build your future.
Adnan Sarwar, (29:35):
I'd like to thank Virginie Andre, Onni Sarvela, Rudy Frank, Shiraz
Maher, Joana Cook, Rafa, and Jesse Morton for helping us
understand something of the complexity of the journey into and
out of extremism. Once an extremist, always an extremist? Not
necessarily. That's it for this edition of Taking Apart Terror
(29:58):
search for as wherever you get your podcast. And if
you're enjoying the series, please do leave us a star
rating and a review. It makes a huge difference to
how many people find us and of course, follow or subscribe.
So you don't miss an episode. Like the next one,
where we ask, " Is there life after terror?") And look
at how people and communities go about recovering from the
(30:18):
terrible things that violent extremisim inflicts on them. I'm Adnan
Sarwar till the next time. Goodbye.
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com