August 23, 2021 • 26 mins
We all know about counter terrorism, right? SWAT teams, dark ops and recruiting “assets”? That’s some of it. But successful counter terrorism doesn’t start with what people do, it starts with what they want. Adnan finds out more about what the world is doing to try and put a stop to violent extremism.
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Adnan Sarwar (00:00):
Before we begin, this is a podcast about terrorism, which
means we do talk about acts of terror and extreme
violence sometimes in quite a lot of detail, so you
might find some of the following material upsetting. Hello, I'm
Adnan Sarwar. This is Taking Apart Terror. And if someone
(00:21):
says counter terrorism, isn't this what happens in your head?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Delta (inaudible) the team full situation, 10-34.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Copy that, Delta (inaudible) about five minutes.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
(inaudible) three minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Copy that, (inaudible) .
Adnan Sarwar (00:43):
The fight against terrorism takes many forms. Of course there
are special ops and SWAT teams, but they are only
one part of the effort. The world of counter terrorism
is as much about understanding what's in people's heads and
hearts and listening to what communities are saying as it
is about guns, and spies, and assets. This time, we're
trying to discover more about what the world is actually
(01:04):
trying to do to stop extremists, or as we've called
this episode, Who's Tackling Terror? To answer that question. I'm
joined by three people who know great deal about counter
terrorism. Firstly, two of our regular panelists, Dr. Shiraz Maher
is director of the International Centre for the Study of
(01:24):
Radicalization and Political Violence at King's College, London. Hello, Shiraz.
Thanks for being here.
Dr. Shiraz Maher (01:29):
Hi. Hi.
Adnan Sarwar (01:31):
And we have Naureen Chowdhury Fink, who is director of
the Soufan Center in New York, where their research focuses
particularly on counter- terrorism, violent extremism, armed conflict, and the
rule of law. Hey, Naureen lovely to speak to you again.
Naureen Chowdhury Fink (01:44):
Hi, Adnan. Great to be with you.
Adnan Sarwar (01:46):
And our guest in this edition is Margaret Coker, who,
as an investigative journalist, has lived and worked in Iraq
for nearly 20 years, including being the Baghdad Bureau Chief
for the New York Times. Plus she's also the author
of The Spymaster of Baghdad, described as the untold story
of the elite intelligence cell that turned the tide against
ISIS, and which ultimately led to the killing of ISIS
(02:09):
leader, Abu Bakr al- Baghdadi, in 2019. Margaret, thanks for
joining us.
Margaret Coker (02:14):
Thanks for having me, Adnan.
Adnan Sarwar (02:14):
Shiraz, if I could start with you. Can I just
get a very basic overview of the kind of efforts
that governments are putting into this? Are governments working together
in a kind of joined up way to fight against Daesh?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (02:28):
Yeah, I think we've seen a number of multilateral efforts
to counter Daesh, whether that's at the military level, where,
of course, there was a global coalition that came together
to launch kinetic action against Daesh when it held territory
across both Syria and Iraq. Beyond that, broader intelligence sharing
in the west to counter the terrorist threat, particularly when
(02:49):
it was extremely acute for countries such as France and
Germany and Belgium, and I think that's coupled with broader,
again, intelligence sharing and diplomatic efforts then that have been
taking place between Western countries, Gulf countries. So you are
seeing different levels of cooperation taking place, and a phenomenon
such as Daesh, which is itself so multifaceted, requires that
(03:13):
level of intense effort that that's coming at it from
a number of different directions.
Adnan Sarwar (03:19):
Naureen, would you say that was true? Would you say
that a lot of governments have realized that this is
everybody's problem and not just a problem that's over there
and they're working together now?
Naureen Chowdhury Fink (03:28):
There's been a tremendous effort in places like the UN
to look at sort of post Al- Qaeda terrorism as
a truly transnational threat. And unlike terrorism in earlier decades,
which was really dealt with each country on its own,
there are a number of frameworks and international efforts that
have been developed to deal with more transnational groups like Al-
(03:50):
Qaeda and ISIS, for sure. And I think it tends
not to be terribly sexy to talk about the UN
and counter terrorism. There isn't a SWAT team. There isn't
a military. It's a lot of civilian efforts, but we
actually need a number of rules and frameworks in order
for countries to be able to work together in the
first place. So one of the things to keep in
(04:11):
mind is that there's an end goal to counter terrorism.
It's not about killing terrorist, it's about bringing them to
justice, it's about prosecution, it's about some kind of justice
for victims and actual capacity building support so states can
do this. And a lot of that stuff never makes
the news, but it's what you need in order to
prosecute a terrorist, in order to hold them accountable for
(04:33):
what they did.
Adnan Sarwar (04:34):
Margaret, one of the main things you are doing is
this kind of revisionism where you're saying, " It's not just
the US, and it's not just the British who did
something about this. It was Iraqis as well." And your
book puts that right in the center of the story.
Can you tell us more about that?
Margaret Coker (04:49):
Yeah, so it's very rare to have tales of heroism
coming from the Islamic world. We know that it's sexy
to have fire fights on screen and to have, kill
counts of terrorists. What we know is a harder story
to write and report is the actual people on the
ground whose countries have been torn apart by this violence,
about how they suit up and go to work and
(05:10):
try and make their countries a better place. And so
The Spymaster of Baghdad brings to life the stories of
three people. One is the man that I call the
Spymaster of Baghdad, and he's the head of this small,
elite intelligence unit. And they're called the Falcons, (foreign language)
in Arabic. You know, they've risen from the ashes of
Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and they have sort of specialized in
(05:34):
this very sort of high profile and narrow goal, which is
to target the leadership of first Al- Qaeda in Iraq,
and then the Islamic State, when it announced itself in
2014, and then two of his officers. And I tell
the stories about this band of brothers, how they tried
to recreate a culture of intelligence gathering in a country
(05:57):
like Iraq, that, for so many years was known as
the Republic of Fear, because of the secret police and
the intelligence apparatus that Saddam oversaw. And they've been incredibly
successful in their work, because they have basically gone old
school. You know, as the Western world has gone high
tech with a big emphasis on electronic surveillance, they have
(06:20):
stayed finding human sources, cultivating human networks, and actually understanding
the networks in which Jihadi terrorist groups work and operate.
And then by getting inside those organizations, by turning double
agents through a variety of personal, cultural, psychological tools, they've
(06:41):
been able to really infiltrate and then destroy from within.
Adnan Sarwar (06:45):
So Naureen, Margaret's talking about destroying from within. What about
what's going on outside? Are there things going on behind
the scenes internationally that we don't know about?
Naureen Chowdhury Fink (06:54):
Well, there's a lot. I think that one of the key
things is that, you know, a lot of follow up
has to take place in terms of bringing a counter
terrorism operation through to some kind of prosecution or some
kind of accountability mechanism. And in order to have a
successful prosecution, we need evidence. A lot of that evidence
(07:14):
is in the battlefield. And so I think there's certainly
the ongoing kinetic operations that are more targeted at groups,
but I also think that long process of collecting evidence,
making sure we're putting out fires where they're popping out,
and making sure there is a sustainable political solution, I
think that's the huge problem we're facing, that in the
(07:36):
absence of any kind of political certainty about what comes
next, we are, you know, we're looking at a potential
lull before we see another round of groups emerging.
Adnan Sarwar (07:47):
So there is lots happening, Naureen, but, like you said, this is
a lull, you know, and there's going to be more. So
it doesn't sound like we're doing very well. Shiraz, what could
we be doing better when it comes to countering terrorism?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (07:59):
We've had two decades of a war on terror, and
here we are with a threat landscape that is more
diffuse than it was on September the 11th, 2001. You've
seen an ideological splintering and fragmentation of what might be
called a Salafi Jihadi tradition, which has taken on hugely
(08:21):
localized characteristics all the way from Indonesia through to Mali,
and pretty much everywhere in between. And so in that
sense, it would be hard to say, we've got it
right. There are a number of different approaches, and part
of that does involve the hard element, which is the
military side of things. But a lot of this is
also about the same thing we've been talking about for
(08:42):
two decades, right? Ever since 9/ 11, the hearts and
minds component, and I don't think anyone has yet cracked
it, that's the problem. And I think part of it
is the way that we framed these things. We, for
ages, it was always said, you know, " What is the
counter narrative to the vision ISIS is selling young British
Muslims or young French Muslims or young American Muslims?" And
(09:03):
I also thought that was quite a perverse way of
framing it, because surely ISIS should have been sitting there saying, "
What's the counter narrative to the American dream? What's the
counter narrative to the successful British Muslim, to the successful French
Muslim?" So we seeded the center ground already for them
by establishing ourselves as doing a counter narrative to their
vision, whereas we didn't have a vision of our own
(09:24):
that they were having to rail against.
Adnan Sarwar (09:27):
Countering terrorism through creating a counter narrative. It's about giving
people another way of looking at things, another way of
being. [Fawzia al-Harbi 00:09:35] is a teacher from Raqqa who decided that
what she could do against Daesh was to empower people
through education, and the people she wanted to help the
most were women. She started in secret during the occupation.
Fawzia al-Harbi (09:53):
(foreign language) .
Translator (09:53):
Life was surely very difficult under Daesh's rule. It was
very difficult for all parts of society, including men and
women, although women suffered the most. They destroyed women and
their presence entirely deeming them. Only responsible for housework. Women
were forbidden from leaving home, being productive, or fulfilling their
role in building society. They repressed women despite them for
(10:16):
their own personal enjoyment. I mean, what they were doing
in public contradicted their lustful hunger for women.
Fawzia al-Harbi (10:25):
(foreign language) .
Translator (10:26):
I hold a degree in sociology, which they view as
part of philosophy, so it is forbidden. During Daesh time,
I always had to say that I didn't study at
all if someone asked me about my education. They would
send somebody to ask about me because some Daesh members
were my neighbors just opposite my house. It was really
terrible whenever I left home, returned home, or had a
(10:49):
gathering of women at home. Many women used to attend
our literacy courses at my house since Daesh was against
education. I was asked three times to go to Al-
Hesba, the Daesh's religious morality police. I was subjected to
a lot of pressure under Daesh, so I decided to leave.
Fawzia al-Harbi (11:08):
(foreign language) .
Adnan Sarwar (11:07):
Fawzia went north with her family, but she didn't stop working
for change. And again, it was women forced to leave
their homes, as she had been, that she was trying
to help.
Fawzia al-Harbi (11:25):
(foreign language) .
Translator (11:26):
I have always been focused on helping displaced women who
had to abandon their memories, their dreams, their homes, and
their lands. A woman needs to feel that she exists
and proves herself through work.
Fawzia al-Harbi (11:39):
(foreign language) .
Translator (11:41):
I had over 400 women from all across (inaudible) .
When they arrived, their main goal was learning, but they
also wanted to forget about the tragedies they had experienced
during Daesh. The majority of women were mothers of martyrs,
or wives of martyrs, and daughters of martyrs. My course
lasted for about six hours, and these women did not
(12:03):
want the time to end. They said, " We want to
stay more, because when we come to learn, this helps
us forget the worries that have accumulated at the time of Daesh."
Fawzia al-Harbi (12:21):
(foreign language) .
Translator (12:21):
We do sewing, women's hairdressing, and first aid, as well
as teaching. We will establish society by uniting women. Each
group will comprise 20, 30, or 40 women, and when they
are side by side, they will create an integrated community.
We have women from all over Syria, and they exchange
(12:42):
ideas and skills, traditions, and customs. There were things which
we were unfamiliar with, and when women from Homs, Aleppo,
Damascus came to us, we exchanged ideas, broaden our knowledge
and create new things.
Fawzia al-Harbi (12:56):
(foreign language) .
Adnan Sarwar (12:59):
Naureen, when it comes to countering terrorism, how do you know what the best thing is to do? Where do we
even start?
Naureen Chowdhury Fink (13:11):
Well, I think that the first stage is to realize that there
are different layers of people joining, and then there are
different layers of the organization that they're joining. So some
people will be joining for, you know, 50 bucks and
a gun. Some people will be joining because it's cool,
and their family and friends are doing it, so why
not? And some people will be joining it because there's
a hard ideological commitment to the ideology of the group
(13:35):
or the strategic political objectives. And so I sometimes like
to think of them as a corporation. You know, there's
some people who just join it, it's a job, and there's
a different level of commitment. And that means the motivators
are also going to be very different. I think one
big shift we've seen in counter terrorism over the last
two decades has been a towards including more and more
(13:57):
perspectives in this fight, right? So 20, 30 years ago, when
we were talking about counter terrorism, it was largely SWAT
teams and SyOPs and things like that. Now we are
talking about bringing in educators, media, community groups. The entire
spectrum of counter terrorism has increased to include these discussions
because we know that different people are motivated for different
(14:19):
reasons. Part of the interesting thing, and the challenge is
that now that you have more individual or small group,
or quote- unquote, lone wolf terrorism, you no longer have
to bridge that gap between an individual being motivated and
then tight command and control from a group that is
issuing orders and HR forms in triplicate, like Al- Qaeda
(14:43):
did with references. But I think our first error is
when we assume that everyone is joining for the same
reason or that there is, in fact, a single set
of motivators.
Adnan Sarwar (14:54):
Margaret, do you want to come in on that?
Margaret Coker (14:56):
I was going to pick up on what Naureen was saying in
that intelligence professionals, the spies who are trying to understand
and get inside the Jihadi organizations, they have a deep
appreciation for the different levels of motivation. Those are psychological
pressure points in which good interrogators can use to turn
people and make them double agents, or get information with
(15:18):
without having to resort to torture and all of those,
you know, the terrible tactics that were used earlier on
when we started this epoch that we know as the
war on terror. Give them a benefit that they've lost,
you know, whether it's seed money to go start a
shop somewhere else in Iraq, or whether it is the
promise to get a brother, or an uncle who's been
(15:38):
in jail without charge for years and years, get them
free. You know, those sorts of psychological understandings and cultural
appreciation is how, slowly and carefully, local communities can fight terrorism.
Adnan Sarwar (15:54):
Shiraz, do you want to pick up on that?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (15:55):
One of the things I think that we haven't talked about
enough is the two major urban centers that become sort
of jewels in the crown of the ISIS territory, which
is Raqqa and Mosul, then these are the areas of
the vulnerable Sunni poor, and, ultimately, securing stability and peace
(16:18):
in Iraq and Syria requires those Sunnis to have a
degree of security about their future, about their lives, about
their physical safety, about their physical security, that expectation that when
you go to bed at night, you'll still be alive
in the morning, that when your child goes to school,
they will return. And that's really the case with, I
(16:40):
think, the pragmatic decision that locals had to make with
ISIS are, " Here's a brutal sectarian, millenarian Sunni regime. Well,
we understand that better than we understand a Shia militia."
So people are making pragmatic decisions in the interests of
their families as locals. And I think that's something we
have to be sensitive to.
Adnan Sarwar (17:03):
The work that Fawzia al- Harbi began in Raqqa and then took
to the north is now making a difference all over Syria.
Fawzia al-Harbi (17:11):
(foreign language) .
Translator (17:14):
Each one of my close friends has begun to establish
a woman's civic complex in their areas. I would love
all women to do as I do, to be actors
and influencers in building this community. Now we have an (Elbob)
, a center called I Am Not Alone, a group
of women from Homs, who are able to do the
work that I do, and more.
Fawzia al-Harbi (17:38):
(foreign language) .
Translator (17:38):
What we are doing is having a huge impact. Take,
for example, sewing workshops. We used to import clothes for
ourselves and our children from different places. Now, however, thanks
to sewing workshops, we make clothes that our children, husbands,
and people supporting our projects to wear.
Fawzia al-Harbi (18:08):
(foreign language) .
Adnan Sarwar (18:08):
But for Fawzia, this isn't just about economics.
Fawzia al-Harbi (18:09):
(foreign language) .
Translator (18:09):
I mean, when we talk about freedom or the concept
of freedom, or the principle of freedom, freedom for women
is not the removal of their clothes, or hijabs, or
the customs and traditions only. We love our Arab customs
and traditions. Women's freedom is the freedom of their thoughts,
self expression, and their presence within the society to be
influential. Women are the nucleus of society, so we are
(18:33):
starting to show our ideas, raise our children in the
Islamic way, but in our way. These are my thoughts about Daesh's
departure and its reflection on us.
Fawzia al-Harbi (18:44):
(foreign language) .
Adnan Sarwar (18:48):
Fawzia fears the return of the violence, not just because
of the physical dangers, but because of what it will do to society. But
she also knows that the fight begins in people's minds.
Fawzia al-Harbi (19:00):
(foreign language) .
Translator (19:04):
I dread the idea that security will be undermined again,
that the war plains and the bombing will return. This is
what I fear the most. The things that the women
are doing should be highlighted. Women have become the entirety
of society at present, since the majority of men are
not at home. They are probably either at war, displaced,
(19:24):
or have left the country, therefore, women should be highlighted
so that they are given the support they need, whether
it's financial, emotional, or mental. When it comes to what
I can do in my job as director of (inaudible)
Association, I can fight extremist ideas through awareness raising
sessions, counseling sessions, (inaudible) , and discussion sessions.
Fawzia al-Harbi (19:48):
(foreign language) .
Translator (19:52):
I would like to send my message to the Syrian
society as a whole. People of Syria, we all need
each other, even simple people who might be thought insignificant
or lacking impact. Those are exactly the people who are
most capable of building society. All of us must establish
one state that comprises all the Syrian young people from
(20:13):
all religions and sects. We do not want sectarianism in
Syria at all. All of us are Syrians, with all
our religions, customs, and traditions, and we must stand up
for each other.
Fawzia al-Harbi (20:26):
(foreign language) .
Adnan Sarwar (20:33):
So right now there's a whole breadth of things that
are being done. So we are fighting against these people
physically, on the ground. We are stopping their funding. We
are stopping people going to join them. We are trying
to change the story for people here about what that
organization is, and we are also trying to change a
story for people who have been living it, the Iraqis,
(20:55):
for instance. Okay, so all that's being done, but what
can we do? What can I do sitting here in the
UK? How should I be handling this?
Naureen Chowdhury Fink (21:05):
I think there's a lot that individuals can do. It
could simply be that the way you digest and talk
about news, and the way you talk to your local
politicians, the way you advocate for policies or communications, that's
something individuals can do. And I think that given the
(21:25):
prevalence we have seen of marginalization and human rights violations,
being sort of two common elements in radicalization or mobilization
to violence, I think anything you can do to try
and address marginalization in your own space, and anything you
(21:46):
can do to challenge and mitigate human rights violations goes
a long way to addressing two of the key factors.
And then also, you know, what's the expression? If you
see something, say something. That's always important, and I think
certainly here in New York City, we benefited very much
from a couple of folks who are willing to spot
(22:06):
unusual. We would've had a huge bomb in Times Square,
and there's been numerous other risks that have been stalled.
So I think that is quite important, but I think
the marginalization, the human rights violations, the general watchfulness about
how you can both be helpful and where you see
a risk, those are things everybody can do.
Adnan Sarwar (22:27):
Margaret, do you want to come in on that?
Margaret Coker (22:29):
For many Arab speakers in the Middle East, the message
of Daesh has been completely discredited after four years of
bloodshed and terror. And the Western world seems to still
have this sort of spooky fascination with snuff films and
(22:50):
this kind of violent pornography that Daesh trucks in, and
when Hollywood puts out its own slasher flicks and that
sells, those are hard images to discount and look away
from. But I would challenge people to do just that.
I would say, delete it, and broaden your own horizons.
Find some other narratives. And there's a lot of different
bridges that we can gap by just remembering that the
(23:14):
vast majority of Muslims want to just have normal lives,
like we all know them. Whether you're living in Birmingham
in the UK, or whether you're living in Baghdad. So
yeah. Finding different points of view, telling those stories and
making sure people understand each other better.
Adnan Sarwar (23:31):
Shiraz, this idea of people understanding each other is something
that Daesh tries to interfere with, right? I mean, they
like it when groups like the far right or anyone
bad mouths Muslims because it upsets people, it makes them
easier to recruit. Is that something we need to try
and counter as well?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (23:45):
Yeah. ISIS have long sort of promoted the idea of
there being this tension between Islam and everything else, between
Muslims in Britain or Muslims in Europe, and so actually
the rise of the far right, or the rise of ISIS,
which can be seen as the flip side of that
coin and young men and women choosing to get involved
(24:06):
in that, these are failures of integration. These are failures
of civil society. People don't attack what they're part of.
If you remember when Mohammad Sidique Khan orchestrated and led
the 7/ 7 terrorist attacks in this country a number
of years ago now, in his video justifying that atrocity,
he said, " You are bombing, gassing, raping, killing, imprisoning my
(24:29):
people." And the interesting point there was the, " my people".
Who are his people? Iraqis? A country that he'd never
traveled to, who spoke a language he didn't speak. Or
his fellow citizen strangers that he was killing on the
tube that morning, right? Those were his people, but he
didn't feel that connection. He felt this other metaphysical, supernatural
(24:51):
connection to people somewhere that he had nothing to do
with. So, you know, in that sense of what can
we all do, that's what we can do. We can
contribute to that greater sense of civic self. I think
in a way, that's the pressing issue of our time,
because our communities are perhaps more polarized and more fractured
than they ever have been. Greater civic capacity, I would
(25:11):
argue, is the best long term inoculation to any of this.
Adnan Sarwar (25:18):
I'd like to thank Shiraz Maher, Naureen Fink, Margaret Coker, Fawzia al-
Harbi for helping us to understand what's actually needed to
create successful counter terrorism strategies. That's it for this edition
of Taking Apart Terror. Search for us wherever you get
your podcasts. And if you are enjoying this series, please
do leave us a star rating and a review. It
(25:40):
makes a huge difference to how many people find us
and, of course, follow or subscribe for free so you
don't miss an episode, like the next one, where we
will be asking once an extremist, always an extremist? Is
there a cure for radicalization? I'm Adnan Sarwar. Until the
next time, goodbye.
Before we begin, this is a podcast about terrorism, which
means we do talk about acts of terror and extreme
violence sometimes in quite a lot of detail, so you
might find some of the following material upsetting. Hello, I'm
Adnan Sarwar. This is Taking Apart Terror. And if someone
(00:21):
says counter terrorism, isn't this what happens in your head?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Delta (inaudible) the team full situation, 10-34.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Copy that, Delta (inaudible) about five minutes.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
(inaudible) three minutes.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Copy that, (inaudible) .
Adnan Sarwar (00:43):
The fight against terrorism takes many forms. Of course there
are special ops and SWAT teams, but they are only
one part of the effort. The world of counter terrorism
is as much about understanding what's in people's heads and
hearts and listening to what communities are saying as it
is about guns, and spies, and assets. This time, we're
trying to discover more about what the world is actually
(01:04):
trying to do to stop extremists, or as we've called
this episode, Who's Tackling Terror? To answer that question. I'm
joined by three people who know great deal about counter
terrorism. Firstly, two of our regular panelists, Dr. Shiraz Maher
is director of the International Centre for the Study of
(01:24):
Radicalization and Political Violence at King's College, London. Hello, Shiraz.
Thanks for being here.
Dr. Shiraz Maher (01:29):
Hi. Hi.
Adnan Sarwar (01:31):
And we have Naureen Chowdhury Fink, who is director of
the Soufan Center in New York, where their research focuses
particularly on counter- terrorism, violent extremism, armed conflict, and the
rule of law. Hey, Naureen lovely to speak to you again.
Naureen Chowdhury Fink (01:44):
Hi, Adnan. Great to be with you.
Adnan Sarwar (01:46):
And our guest in this edition is Margaret Coker, who,
as an investigative journalist, has lived and worked in Iraq
for nearly 20 years, including being the Baghdad Bureau Chief
for the New York Times. Plus she's also the author
of The Spymaster of Baghdad, described as the untold story
of the elite intelligence cell that turned the tide against
ISIS, and which ultimately led to the killing of ISIS
(02:09):
leader, Abu Bakr al- Baghdadi, in 2019. Margaret, thanks for
joining us.
Margaret Coker (02:14):
Thanks for having me, Adnan.
Adnan Sarwar (02:14):
Shiraz, if I could start with you. Can I just
get a very basic overview of the kind of efforts
that governments are putting into this? Are governments working together
in a kind of joined up way to fight against Daesh?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (02:28):
Yeah, I think we've seen a number of multilateral efforts
to counter Daesh, whether that's at the military level, where,
of course, there was a global coalition that came together
to launch kinetic action against Daesh when it held territory
across both Syria and Iraq. Beyond that, broader intelligence sharing
in the west to counter the terrorist threat, particularly when
(02:49):
it was extremely acute for countries such as France and
Germany and Belgium, and I think that's coupled with broader,
again, intelligence sharing and diplomatic efforts then that have been
taking place between Western countries, Gulf countries. So you are
seeing different levels of cooperation taking place, and a phenomenon
such as Daesh, which is itself so multifaceted, requires that
(03:13):
level of intense effort that that's coming at it from
a number of different directions.
Adnan Sarwar (03:19):
Naureen, would you say that was true? Would you say
that a lot of governments have realized that this is
everybody's problem and not just a problem that's over there
and they're working together now?
Naureen Chowdhury Fink (03:28):
There's been a tremendous effort in places like the UN
to look at sort of post Al- Qaeda terrorism as
a truly transnational threat. And unlike terrorism in earlier decades,
which was really dealt with each country on its own,
there are a number of frameworks and international efforts that
have been developed to deal with more transnational groups like Al-
(03:50):
Qaeda and ISIS, for sure. And I think it tends
not to be terribly sexy to talk about the UN
and counter terrorism. There isn't a SWAT team. There isn't
a military. It's a lot of civilian efforts, but we
actually need a number of rules and frameworks in order
for countries to be able to work together in the
first place. So one of the things to keep in
(04:11):
mind is that there's an end goal to counter terrorism.
It's not about killing terrorist, it's about bringing them to
justice, it's about prosecution, it's about some kind of justice
for victims and actual capacity building support so states can
do this. And a lot of that stuff never makes
the news, but it's what you need in order to
prosecute a terrorist, in order to hold them accountable for
(04:33):
what they did.
Adnan Sarwar (04:34):
Margaret, one of the main things you are doing is
this kind of revisionism where you're saying, " It's not just
the US, and it's not just the British who did
something about this. It was Iraqis as well." And your
book puts that right in the center of the story.
Can you tell us more about that?
Margaret Coker (04:49):
Yeah, so it's very rare to have tales of heroism
coming from the Islamic world. We know that it's sexy
to have fire fights on screen and to have, kill
counts of terrorists. What we know is a harder story
to write and report is the actual people on the
ground whose countries have been torn apart by this violence,
about how they suit up and go to work and
(05:10):
try and make their countries a better place. And so
The Spymaster of Baghdad brings to life the stories of
three people. One is the man that I call the
Spymaster of Baghdad, and he's the head of this small,
elite intelligence unit. And they're called the Falcons, (foreign language)
in Arabic. You know, they've risen from the ashes of
Saddam Hussein's Iraq, and they have sort of specialized in
(05:34):
this very sort of high profile and narrow goal, which is
to target the leadership of first Al- Qaeda in Iraq,
and then the Islamic State, when it announced itself in
2014, and then two of his officers. And I tell
the stories about this band of brothers, how they tried
to recreate a culture of intelligence gathering in a country
(05:57):
like Iraq, that, for so many years was known as
the Republic of Fear, because of the secret police and
the intelligence apparatus that Saddam oversaw. And they've been incredibly
successful in their work, because they have basically gone old
school. You know, as the Western world has gone high
tech with a big emphasis on electronic surveillance, they have
(06:20):
stayed finding human sources, cultivating human networks, and actually understanding
the networks in which Jihadi terrorist groups work and operate.
And then by getting inside those organizations, by turning double
agents through a variety of personal, cultural, psychological tools, they've
(06:41):
been able to really infiltrate and then destroy from within.
Adnan Sarwar (06:45):
So Naureen, Margaret's talking about destroying from within. What about
what's going on outside? Are there things going on behind
the scenes internationally that we don't know about?
Naureen Chowdhury Fink (06:54):
Well, there's a lot. I think that one of the key
things is that, you know, a lot of follow up
has to take place in terms of bringing a counter
terrorism operation through to some kind of prosecution or some
kind of accountability mechanism. And in order to have a
successful prosecution, we need evidence. A lot of that evidence
(07:14):
is in the battlefield. And so I think there's certainly
the ongoing kinetic operations that are more targeted at groups,
but I also think that long process of collecting evidence,
making sure we're putting out fires where they're popping out,
and making sure there is a sustainable political solution, I
think that's the huge problem we're facing, that in the
(07:36):
absence of any kind of political certainty about what comes
next, we are, you know, we're looking at a potential
lull before we see another round of groups emerging.
Adnan Sarwar (07:47):
So there is lots happening, Naureen, but, like you said, this is
a lull, you know, and there's going to be more. So
it doesn't sound like we're doing very well. Shiraz, what could
we be doing better when it comes to countering terrorism?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (07:59):
We've had two decades of a war on terror, and
here we are with a threat landscape that is more
diffuse than it was on September the 11th, 2001. You've
seen an ideological splintering and fragmentation of what might be
called a Salafi Jihadi tradition, which has taken on hugely
(08:21):
localized characteristics all the way from Indonesia through to Mali,
and pretty much everywhere in between. And so in that
sense, it would be hard to say, we've got it
right. There are a number of different approaches, and part
of that does involve the hard element, which is the
military side of things. But a lot of this is
also about the same thing we've been talking about for
(08:42):
two decades, right? Ever since 9/ 11, the hearts and
minds component, and I don't think anyone has yet cracked
it, that's the problem. And I think part of it
is the way that we framed these things. We, for
ages, it was always said, you know, " What is the
counter narrative to the vision ISIS is selling young British
Muslims or young French Muslims or young American Muslims?" And
(09:03):
I also thought that was quite a perverse way of
framing it, because surely ISIS should have been sitting there saying, "
What's the counter narrative to the American dream? What's the
counter narrative to the successful British Muslim, to the successful French
Muslim?" So we seeded the center ground already for them
by establishing ourselves as doing a counter narrative to their
vision, whereas we didn't have a vision of our own
(09:24):
that they were having to rail against.
Adnan Sarwar (09:27):
Countering terrorism through creating a counter narrative. It's about giving
people another way of looking at things, another way of
being. [Fawzia al-Harbi 00:09:35] is a teacher from Raqqa who decided that
what she could do against Daesh was to empower people
through education, and the people she wanted to help the
most were women. She started in secret during the occupation.
Fawzia al-Harbi (09:53):
(foreign language) .
Translator (09:53):
Life was surely very difficult under Daesh's rule. It was
very difficult for all parts of society, including men and
women, although women suffered the most. They destroyed women and
their presence entirely deeming them. Only responsible for housework. Women
were forbidden from leaving home, being productive, or fulfilling their
role in building society. They repressed women despite them for
(10:16):
their own personal enjoyment. I mean, what they were doing
in public contradicted their lustful hunger for women.
Fawzia al-Harbi (10:25):
(foreign language) .
Translator (10:26):
I hold a degree in sociology, which they view as
part of philosophy, so it is forbidden. During Daesh time,
I always had to say that I didn't study at
all if someone asked me about my education. They would
send somebody to ask about me because some Daesh members
were my neighbors just opposite my house. It was really
terrible whenever I left home, returned home, or had a
(10:49):
gathering of women at home. Many women used to attend
our literacy courses at my house since Daesh was against
education. I was asked three times to go to Al-
Hesba, the Daesh's religious morality police. I was subjected to
a lot of pressure under Daesh, so I decided to leave.
Fawzia al-Harbi (11:08):
(foreign language) .
Adnan Sarwar (11:07):
Fawzia went north with her family, but she didn't stop working
for change. And again, it was women forced to leave
their homes, as she had been, that she was trying
to help.
Fawzia al-Harbi (11:25):
(foreign language) .
Translator (11:26):
I have always been focused on helping displaced women who
had to abandon their memories, their dreams, their homes, and
their lands. A woman needs to feel that she exists
and proves herself through work.
Fawzia al-Harbi (11:39):
(foreign language) .
Translator (11:41):
I had over 400 women from all across (inaudible) .
When they arrived, their main goal was learning, but they
also wanted to forget about the tragedies they had experienced
during Daesh. The majority of women were mothers of martyrs,
or wives of martyrs, and daughters of martyrs. My course
lasted for about six hours, and these women did not
(12:03):
want the time to end. They said, " We want to
stay more, because when we come to learn, this helps
us forget the worries that have accumulated at the time of Daesh."
Fawzia al-Harbi (12:21):
(foreign language) .
Translator (12:21):
We do sewing, women's hairdressing, and first aid, as well
as teaching. We will establish society by uniting women. Each
group will comprise 20, 30, or 40 women, and when they
are side by side, they will create an integrated community.
We have women from all over Syria, and they exchange
(12:42):
ideas and skills, traditions, and customs. There were things which
we were unfamiliar with, and when women from Homs, Aleppo,
Damascus came to us, we exchanged ideas, broaden our knowledge
and create new things.
Fawzia al-Harbi (12:56):
(foreign language) .
Adnan Sarwar (12:59):
Naureen, when it comes to countering terrorism, how do you know what the best thing is to do? Where do we
even start?
Naureen Chowdhury Fink (13:11):
Well, I think that the first stage is to realize that there
are different layers of people joining, and then there are
different layers of the organization that they're joining. So some
people will be joining for, you know, 50 bucks and
a gun. Some people will be joining because it's cool,
and their family and friends are doing it, so why
not? And some people will be joining it because there's
a hard ideological commitment to the ideology of the group
(13:35):
or the strategic political objectives. And so I sometimes like
to think of them as a corporation. You know, there's
some people who just join it, it's a job, and there's
a different level of commitment. And that means the motivators
are also going to be very different. I think one
big shift we've seen in counter terrorism over the last
two decades has been a towards including more and more
(13:57):
perspectives in this fight, right? So 20, 30 years ago, when
we were talking about counter terrorism, it was largely SWAT
teams and SyOPs and things like that. Now we are
talking about bringing in educators, media, community groups. The entire
spectrum of counter terrorism has increased to include these discussions
because we know that different people are motivated for different
(14:19):
reasons. Part of the interesting thing, and the challenge is
that now that you have more individual or small group,
or quote- unquote, lone wolf terrorism, you no longer have
to bridge that gap between an individual being motivated and
then tight command and control from a group that is
issuing orders and HR forms in triplicate, like Al- Qaeda
(14:43):
did with references. But I think our first error is
when we assume that everyone is joining for the same
reason or that there is, in fact, a single set
of motivators.
Adnan Sarwar (14:54):
Margaret, do you want to come in on that?
Margaret Coker (14:56):
I was going to pick up on what Naureen was saying in
that intelligence professionals, the spies who are trying to understand
and get inside the Jihadi organizations, they have a deep
appreciation for the different levels of motivation. Those are psychological
pressure points in which good interrogators can use to turn
people and make them double agents, or get information with
(15:18):
without having to resort to torture and all of those,
you know, the terrible tactics that were used earlier on
when we started this epoch that we know as the
war on terror. Give them a benefit that they've lost,
you know, whether it's seed money to go start a
shop somewhere else in Iraq, or whether it is the
promise to get a brother, or an uncle who's been
(15:38):
in jail without charge for years and years, get them
free. You know, those sorts of psychological understandings and cultural
appreciation is how, slowly and carefully, local communities can fight terrorism.
Adnan Sarwar (15:54):
Shiraz, do you want to pick up on that?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (15:55):
One of the things I think that we haven't talked about
enough is the two major urban centers that become sort
of jewels in the crown of the ISIS territory, which
is Raqqa and Mosul, then these are the areas of
the vulnerable Sunni poor, and, ultimately, securing stability and peace
(16:18):
in Iraq and Syria requires those Sunnis to have a
degree of security about their future, about their lives, about
their physical safety, about their physical security, that expectation that when
you go to bed at night, you'll still be alive
in the morning, that when your child goes to school,
they will return. And that's really the case with, I
(16:40):
think, the pragmatic decision that locals had to make with
ISIS are, " Here's a brutal sectarian, millenarian Sunni regime. Well,
we understand that better than we understand a Shia militia."
So people are making pragmatic decisions in the interests of
their families as locals. And I think that's something we
have to be sensitive to.
Adnan Sarwar (17:03):
The work that Fawzia al- Harbi began in Raqqa and then took
to the north is now making a difference all over Syria.
Fawzia al-Harbi (17:11):
(foreign language) .
Translator (17:14):
Each one of my close friends has begun to establish
a woman's civic complex in their areas. I would love
all women to do as I do, to be actors
and influencers in building this community. Now we have an (Elbob)
, a center called I Am Not Alone, a group
of women from Homs, who are able to do the
work that I do, and more.
Fawzia al-Harbi (17:38):
(foreign language) .
Translator (17:38):
What we are doing is having a huge impact. Take,
for example, sewing workshops. We used to import clothes for
ourselves and our children from different places. Now, however, thanks
to sewing workshops, we make clothes that our children, husbands,
and people supporting our projects to wear.
Fawzia al-Harbi (18:08):
(foreign language) .
Adnan Sarwar (18:08):
But for Fawzia, this isn't just about economics.
Fawzia al-Harbi (18:09):
(foreign language) .
Translator (18:09):
I mean, when we talk about freedom or the concept
of freedom, or the principle of freedom, freedom for women
is not the removal of their clothes, or hijabs, or
the customs and traditions only. We love our Arab customs
and traditions. Women's freedom is the freedom of their thoughts,
self expression, and their presence within the society to be
influential. Women are the nucleus of society, so we are
(18:33):
starting to show our ideas, raise our children in the
Islamic way, but in our way. These are my thoughts about Daesh's
departure and its reflection on us.
Fawzia al-Harbi (18:44):
(foreign language) .
Adnan Sarwar (18:48):
Fawzia fears the return of the violence, not just because
of the physical dangers, but because of what it will do to society. But
she also knows that the fight begins in people's minds.
Fawzia al-Harbi (19:00):
(foreign language) .
Translator (19:04):
I dread the idea that security will be undermined again,
that the war plains and the bombing will return. This is
what I fear the most. The things that the women
are doing should be highlighted. Women have become the entirety
of society at present, since the majority of men are
not at home. They are probably either at war, displaced,
(19:24):
or have left the country, therefore, women should be highlighted
so that they are given the support they need, whether
it's financial, emotional, or mental. When it comes to what
I can do in my job as director of (inaudible)
Association, I can fight extremist ideas through awareness raising
sessions, counseling sessions, (inaudible) , and discussion sessions.
Fawzia al-Harbi (19:48):
(foreign language) .
Translator (19:52):
I would like to send my message to the Syrian
society as a whole. People of Syria, we all need
each other, even simple people who might be thought insignificant
or lacking impact. Those are exactly the people who are
most capable of building society. All of us must establish
one state that comprises all the Syrian young people from
(20:13):
all religions and sects. We do not want sectarianism in
Syria at all. All of us are Syrians, with all
our religions, customs, and traditions, and we must stand up
for each other.
Fawzia al-Harbi (20:26):
(foreign language) .
Adnan Sarwar (20:33):
So right now there's a whole breadth of things that
are being done. So we are fighting against these people
physically, on the ground. We are stopping their funding. We
are stopping people going to join them. We are trying
to change the story for people here about what that
organization is, and we are also trying to change a
story for people who have been living it, the Iraqis,
(20:55):
for instance. Okay, so all that's being done, but what
can we do? What can I do sitting here in the
UK? How should I be handling this?
Naureen Chowdhury Fink (21:05):
I think there's a lot that individuals can do. It
could simply be that the way you digest and talk
about news, and the way you talk to your local
politicians, the way you advocate for policies or communications, that's
something individuals can do. And I think that given the
(21:25):
prevalence we have seen of marginalization and human rights violations,
being sort of two common elements in radicalization or mobilization
to violence, I think anything you can do to try
and address marginalization in your own space, and anything you
(21:46):
can do to challenge and mitigate human rights violations goes
a long way to addressing two of the key factors.
And then also, you know, what's the expression? If you
see something, say something. That's always important, and I think
certainly here in New York City, we benefited very much
from a couple of folks who are willing to spot
(22:06):
unusual. We would've had a huge bomb in Times Square,
and there's been numerous other risks that have been stalled.
So I think that is quite important, but I think
the marginalization, the human rights violations, the general watchfulness about
how you can both be helpful and where you see
a risk, those are things everybody can do.
Adnan Sarwar (22:27):
Margaret, do you want to come in on that?
Margaret Coker (22:29):
For many Arab speakers in the Middle East, the message
of Daesh has been completely discredited after four years of
bloodshed and terror. And the Western world seems to still
have this sort of spooky fascination with snuff films and
(22:50):
this kind of violent pornography that Daesh trucks in, and
when Hollywood puts out its own slasher flicks and that
sells, those are hard images to discount and look away
from. But I would challenge people to do just that.
I would say, delete it, and broaden your own horizons.
Find some other narratives. And there's a lot of different
bridges that we can gap by just remembering that the
(23:14):
vast majority of Muslims want to just have normal lives,
like we all know them. Whether you're living in Birmingham
in the UK, or whether you're living in Baghdad. So
yeah. Finding different points of view, telling those stories and
making sure people understand each other better.
Adnan Sarwar (23:31):
Shiraz, this idea of people understanding each other is something
that Daesh tries to interfere with, right? I mean, they
like it when groups like the far right or anyone
bad mouths Muslims because it upsets people, it makes them
easier to recruit. Is that something we need to try
and counter as well?
Dr. Shiraz Maher (23:45):
Yeah. ISIS have long sort of promoted the idea of
there being this tension between Islam and everything else, between
Muslims in Britain or Muslims in Europe, and so actually
the rise of the far right, or the rise of ISIS,
which can be seen as the flip side of that
coin and young men and women choosing to get involved
(24:06):
in that, these are failures of integration. These are failures
of civil society. People don't attack what they're part of.
If you remember when Mohammad Sidique Khan orchestrated and led
the 7/ 7 terrorist attacks in this country a number
of years ago now, in his video justifying that atrocity,
he said, " You are bombing, gassing, raping, killing, imprisoning my
(24:29):
people." And the interesting point there was the, " my people".
Who are his people? Iraqis? A country that he'd never
traveled to, who spoke a language he didn't speak. Or
his fellow citizen strangers that he was killing on the
tube that morning, right? Those were his people, but he
didn't feel that connection. He felt this other metaphysical, supernatural
(24:51):
connection to people somewhere that he had nothing to do
with. So, you know, in that sense of what can
we all do, that's what we can do. We can
contribute to that greater sense of civic self. I think
in a way, that's the pressing issue of our time,
because our communities are perhaps more polarized and more fractured
than they ever have been. Greater civic capacity, I would
(25:11):
argue, is the best long term inoculation to any of this.
Adnan Sarwar (25:18):
I'd like to thank Shiraz Maher, Naureen Fink, Margaret Coker, Fawzia al-
Harbi for helping us to understand what's actually needed to
create successful counter terrorism strategies. That's it for this edition
of Taking Apart Terror. Search for us wherever you get
your podcasts. And if you are enjoying this series, please
do leave us a star rating and a review. It
(25:40):
makes a huge difference to how many people find us
and, of course, follow or subscribe for free so you
don't miss an episode, like the next one, where we
will be asking once an extremist, always an extremist? Is
there a cure for radicalization? I'm Adnan Sarwar. Until the
next time, goodbye.
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