January 14, 2025 • 15 mins
This week, while Damo continues his annual leave, Stephen chats with Kent Walsdorf, Access Technology Lead with Vision Australia, based in Geelong Victoria.
To access the program, presented by Stephen Jolley and Damo McMorrow you can go to varadio.org/talkingtech
To write to the show use damo.mcmorrow@visionaustralia.org
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:08):
Hello everyone! Welcome to Talking Tech. This edition available from
January the 14th, 2025. I'm Stephen Jolly. Great to have
you with us listening maybe through Vision Australia Radio, associated
stations of the Radio Reading Network or the Community Radio Network.
There is also the podcast. To catch that, all you
need to do is search for the two words talking tech.
(00:29):
And then it can come usually on a Tuesday afternoon
just after it's been produced. Another option is to ask
your Siri device or smart speaker to play. Vision Australia
radio talking tech podcast. Vision Australia radio talking tech podcast.
While Damo McMorrow is on leave, I'm talking to some
other interesting people. And by the way, if you haven't
(00:51):
caught up with the conversation I had last week with
Kimberly Kneen from Vision Australia up in Queensland, a participant
in the graduate program of Vision Australia. You can catch
that by going to the to the usual place where
there are past editions of the program via radio talking
tech VA. Radio talking tech. Today I have a member
(01:16):
of Deimos Access Technology team, one of the many people
that are spread around the country. It's Kent Walsdorf from
Geelong in Victoria. Ken, welcome.
S2 (01:26):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
S1 (01:28):
You're an access technology person, talking to lots of people
around the country, not just in Geelong. Tell us what
your role takes you to.
S2 (01:39):
My role has a few hats. I still have the
privilege of working with clients once every term, school term.
I get to go over to Tasmania and I visit
all the public schools there and work with students that
have low vision or who may be blind and really
work alongside them to make sure they've got the right equipment,
and that the teachers are supported and helping that student
(02:00):
to access the curriculum. So I still have a lot
of contact time with clients. I guess the second part
would be. I help to support our Access Technology specialists.
So those are people that will go out daily and
visit our client base. And I will train them on
equipment or support them in assessments or just as a
sounding board sometimes is all they need. You know, have
(02:21):
a chat to me about something that they might want
to talk through, a solution or a potential problem that
they're coming up against. And I work with the New
South Wales and Canberra team with that. And then I
guess the the last hat that I have, which is
relatively new for our team, is we do consulting. So
we go into employment services, into businesses where they may
(02:41):
have a team member that has a vision impairment, or
they may have wished to employ people with vision impairment.
And I'll go in there and test their systems with
things like Jaws and Fusion and Zoomtext and sort of
write a report and give them some advice on how
to improve their system. So I'm very privileged that I
have a role that has a lot of diversity and
(03:01):
keeps me pretty interested in it.
S1 (03:03):
I'd like to ask you about the path that took
you from your original involvement with technology to doing something,
which I bet you didn't imagine on day one of
your first job. And that's being involved in access technology.
S2 (03:17):
Yeah, I've had a pretty interesting career, I guess, in
the nonprofit sector. That's how I kind of look at it.
I started out actually as a musician, so from New Zealand,
originally in Hamilton, and I went to, I guess, what
you would call the equivalent of TAFE, and I studied
music and I really got into computers there because that
was when Apple computers were sort of really coming into
(03:38):
the mainstream. They were certainly leading the charge with media.
And our music department at the time had a whole
bunch of Apple computers. So from there I gained a
real interest, I guess. Um, and being a studio engineer,
I learned about signal flow. So how to connect leads
and all kinds of bits and wonderful pieces of equipment
and technology. So I was really fascinated about that area.
(04:00):
And I guess fast forward after my degree, I came
across to Melbourne and I landed a job with The
Wiggles characters, so I was a production manager there. And
part of that role was to sort of set up,
you know, the stages for The Wiggles characters to come
on and do their shows and shopping malls and things
like that. So I wasn't quite involved yet in nonprofit,
but my manager at the time, he brought me across
(04:21):
because he left that job and I went across into
Starlight Children's Foundation, where that was really my first taste
of working with children with disability, working with children with
severe sickness illness. And also, I was part of setting
up some pretty complex technology systems there at the time.
So it's been a wonderful change to come to Vision Australia.
(04:42):
That was eight years ago now, um, where we moved
from Melbourne to Geelong and that whole build up over
my degree, over working with Starlight Children's Foundation really set
me up well to be able to work as a
technology specialist, combining two things that I love, which is
technology and, you know, training and talking to people. So, um, yeah,
very lucky to be in this role.
S1 (05:01):
On talking tech this week I'm speaking with Kent Walsdorf,
who's an Access technology lead with Vision Australia based in Geelong.
Let's talk more about your roles, particularly, I think the
education one, as it's around the time of the year
where people are getting organised for another year of learning.
S2 (05:19):
Absolutely. So if we sort of talk about people going
into study and this can be a range of different people,
you know, from, you know, children in primary school, high school, college,
if you're in Tasmania, right into university, what we sort
of talk about when we go to work with students
is that there's a whole bunch of people involved in
that conversation. So it's the student. Sometimes it's the parents
(05:40):
are involved in that conversation. If they're young, we will
talk with the teachers, sometimes even with the universities. And
really what we try and do is understand some of
the challenges that those people may be facing, and that
could be access to the curriculum, it could be access
around the school. And we, you know, provide solutions. So
I think one of the big takeaways that I've come
(06:02):
away with over the years is that there's not one
tool that that sort of works for everything. It's really
about building a toolkit. And we talk about that a
lot in our assessments, is that you might have one
particular piece of equipment that might do one thing really well,
but you need something else along the way as well.
And uh, nowadays, I think in a lot of the
schools that I visit, you know, iPads are a really
(06:23):
popular product because of the, I guess, their ease of use,
they very rarely break down. But also the built in
accessibility is pretty important for for some of the students
that I work with. So yeah, gearing up for school,
I think it's really about understanding the curriculum, understanding who's teaching,
and really working with both educators, parents and students to
make sure that they do have the right tools because
(06:46):
I have seen it when it doesn't work. I have
seen it when a student doesn't have the right piece
of equipment that they need, and it really sets them
up to a challenging time to get through their course
or get through the the year. So I find it
really important to make sure that, you know, conversations are
had with the right people, that the technology is trialled
and that they do get the right piece of equipment
(07:07):
or multiple pieces of equipment to make sure they are
successful in their courses.
S1 (07:11):
Tell us about your work consulting with the corporate world.
S2 (07:15):
The work that I've done previously is that we might
have someone who may have a vision impairment that's been
deteriorating over a short period of time. And really, what's
happening there is that the employer is keen on making
sure that the right adjustments are made for that employee.
So I'll go in there and I'll fire up jaws.
And if they're a screen reader user, I would start
(07:35):
testing that system. Really, my work involved with companies and
businesses is that I will actually go and fire up
jaws on their computer and actually test their system from
start to finish, and it can be quite thorough. We
we really look at the entire workflow of what a
person might have to go through on a daily basis,
and from that we'll present a pretty in depth report
(07:55):
about that again. There might be things that they haven't
thought of. And again, it could be things as simple as,
you know, equipment that they need to be able to
access their work. It's not necessarily always a change in
their system or change in their software. It can be
other things as well. So that one is something that's
really interesting because every workplace is different. Every person that's
trying to access their platform or their work has a
(08:18):
different set of challenges. So I quite enjoy that part
of the job because, um, yeah, there's a lot of
things to think about, and I love it when we
do actually make change and help people to, you know,
get on with their work, because often that's just what
they want to be able to do.
S1 (08:31):
Um, tell me about what for you must have been
a real effort to go from being a person who
uses technology in what we might describe as the usual
or the majority way, and putting yourself into the headspace
of somebody who's not looking at the screen or not
looking at it very much. They might be a low
(08:53):
vision person. That must have been quite a quite a
transition for you.
S2 (08:56):
It was. Um, so I don't have a vision impairment myself.
I think when I started the role, there were certain
things that I could do that were not. Not easy,
but easier than being able to fire up a screen reader.
So if it was something to do with, you know,
working a magnifier or if it was something to do
with working, you know, some of the other tools that
(09:17):
we have, the wearable technology, I could understand that and
I could teach that quite easily. When you throw yourself
into the world of screen reading, that can be quite
challenging for someone that's visual because you rely on your
vision so much. And I actually found that quite difficult
to start with, and it got to a point where
I would go out and I would be working with
(09:37):
some Jaws power user, you know, someone that's been using
it for years. And I found myself feeling that I
wasn't able to really hone my skills and to help
that person. Basically, what I was still doing is relying
on my vision at the time. So what I had
to learn was to first of all use and learn
all the keyboard shortcuts. So Jaws, for example. And I
(09:58):
did that by using them daily. So I would go
into work and I would be firing up outlook, firing
up my computer, and just trying to remember the amount
of keyboard shortcuts that I needed to deliver that. And
the second part of that was I would use jaws daily.
It's something that I've been working pretty hard at over
the last 3 or 4 years, and I actually use
it now for things like proofreading. I'll listen to my
(10:20):
own documentation and my own reports with audio, because I
find I actually pick up a lot more things with
audio than what I do visually, in particular grammar and
spelling mistakes. So for me, I found that actually using
these tools daily gave me a lot more comfort in
teaching the technology. But also every now and then I'll
turn off the screen, and that really puts you into
(10:43):
a position of you've only got your audio to rely on,
you can only listen to jaws, and all of a
sudden you're in the same position as the clients that
you're trying to service. And service. And I find that
that is really, really important is to understand exactly what
they're going through and then tailor how you present the
information or how you train accordingly.
S1 (11:02):
As a person who's been blind all their life. And
so I haven't had to go through the transition that
most users have to go through from the visual world
to the speech or braille world, even as a low
vision or blind person. What do you talk to people about?
Who you're working with, who are going through that transition?
(11:24):
And I reckon we'd be wanting to hold on to
try and look at the screen as much as possible
and would be really struggling sometimes to read text, etc..
S2 (11:32):
There can be quite challenging and rightly so for a
lot of people. And I think what I tend to do,
especially in schools where I see students, that they actually
become at a disadvantage, relying on their vision as opposed
to transitioning across into speech. And I think it's something
that you have to tackle with sensitivity, and I think
(11:53):
you have to sort of coach them through and you
have to allow them to understand potentially the benefit of
using speech more as opposed to their vision. So it's
a very gentle approach. At least that's the way that
I do it. Just recently, actually, I was working with
a student and they were reading a piece of text
and I said, okay, we're going to just get you
to read that text, see how you go. And there
(12:13):
was just a paragraph. And then after that I got
them to listen to it. And I said, well, how
did you find your comprehension with that text? Did you
find it easier reading, or did you find it easier
listening to it? And they said, well, you know, actually
just listening to it, I can probably give you more
information about what I read. And I said, not only that,
what did you think of the speed? Like how quickly
(12:33):
were you able to read that information. And they said, well,
much quicker with audio. So something like that can help
people to understand that you may still use your vision
in a certain way, and that's absolutely fine. Each person
is completely different. But if you look into the audio
side of things where you need it, especially people with
severe vision loss. You might find that it becomes easier
(12:54):
to get through information quickly. Not only that, I've seen
and heard of experiences where people that sometimes move from
their vision to audio, other things happen, like they reduce
the amount of headaches they might have. At the end
of the day, they rely on their vision so much
that end of day headaches sort of come through. And,
you know, all the glare in the classroom and things
like that.
S1 (13:14):
And once, once they're used to the audio less fatigue.
S2 (13:17):
Yeah, absolutely. So that's that's actually quite a common thing
that I've seen a lot in schools is that, um,
when they suffer from fatigue and they start to use audio,
they can continue with the learning and being able to
get through content. So that transition very different for a
lot of people, but it's an important one to help
people understand the benefits of using speech, if that's if
(13:37):
that's required for them.
S1 (13:39):
Yeah. Very interesting. It's been great chatting with you today, Kent,
and I'm sure people have found it interesting to learn
what goes into your thinking behind the scenes of just the. Yes,
I talk to these people and I installed this equipment, etc.
it's a lot more to it than that. In the
access technology world. So good on you and hope to
have you back on talking tech again sometime.
S2 (13:59):
Thanks, Steven. Appreciate the chat.
S1 (14:01):
I've been speaking with Kent Walsdorf, who's an Access Technology
lead with Vision Australia based in Geelong. He's been telling
us about his role with Vision Australia. Just before we go,
a reminder you can find details of this program and
previous editions by going to VA radio, Talking Tech, VA radio,
(14:24):
Talking Tech. And you can write to the program at
Vision Australia. Is the naughty boys still looking at his emails?
Damo McMorrow at Vision Australia. Org. This has been talking tech.
I'm Stephen Jolley. Stay safe. We'll talk more tech next week.
See you.
Hello everyone! Welcome to Talking Tech. This edition available from
January the 14th, 2025. I'm Stephen Jolly. Great to have
you with us listening maybe through Vision Australia Radio, associated
stations of the Radio Reading Network or the Community Radio Network.
There is also the podcast. To catch that, all you
need to do is search for the two words talking tech.
(00:29):
And then it can come usually on a Tuesday afternoon
just after it's been produced. Another option is to ask
your Siri device or smart speaker to play. Vision Australia
radio talking tech podcast. Vision Australia radio talking tech podcast.
While Damo McMorrow is on leave, I'm talking to some
other interesting people. And by the way, if you haven't
(00:51):
caught up with the conversation I had last week with
Kimberly Kneen from Vision Australia up in Queensland, a participant
in the graduate program of Vision Australia. You can catch
that by going to the to the usual place where
there are past editions of the program via radio talking
tech VA. Radio talking tech. Today I have a member
(01:16):
of Deimos Access Technology team, one of the many people
that are spread around the country. It's Kent Walsdorf from
Geelong in Victoria. Ken, welcome.
S2 (01:26):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
S1 (01:28):
You're an access technology person, talking to lots of people
around the country, not just in Geelong. Tell us what
your role takes you to.
S2 (01:39):
My role has a few hats. I still have the
privilege of working with clients once every term, school term.
I get to go over to Tasmania and I visit
all the public schools there and work with students that
have low vision or who may be blind and really
work alongside them to make sure they've got the right equipment,
and that the teachers are supported and helping that student
(02:00):
to access the curriculum. So I still have a lot
of contact time with clients. I guess the second part
would be. I help to support our Access Technology specialists.
So those are people that will go out daily and
visit our client base. And I will train them on
equipment or support them in assessments or just as a
sounding board sometimes is all they need. You know, have
(02:21):
a chat to me about something that they might want
to talk through, a solution or a potential problem that
they're coming up against. And I work with the New
South Wales and Canberra team with that. And then I
guess the the last hat that I have, which is
relatively new for our team, is we do consulting. So
we go into employment services, into businesses where they may
(02:41):
have a team member that has a vision impairment, or
they may have wished to employ people with vision impairment.
And I'll go in there and test their systems with
things like Jaws and Fusion and Zoomtext and sort of
write a report and give them some advice on how
to improve their system. So I'm very privileged that I
have a role that has a lot of diversity and
(03:01):
keeps me pretty interested in it.
S1 (03:03):
I'd like to ask you about the path that took
you from your original involvement with technology to doing something,
which I bet you didn't imagine on day one of
your first job. And that's being involved in access technology.
S2 (03:17):
Yeah, I've had a pretty interesting career, I guess, in
the nonprofit sector. That's how I kind of look at it.
I started out actually as a musician, so from New Zealand,
originally in Hamilton, and I went to, I guess, what
you would call the equivalent of TAFE, and I studied
music and I really got into computers there because that
was when Apple computers were sort of really coming into
(03:38):
the mainstream. They were certainly leading the charge with media.
And our music department at the time had a whole
bunch of Apple computers. So from there I gained a
real interest, I guess. Um, and being a studio engineer,
I learned about signal flow. So how to connect leads
and all kinds of bits and wonderful pieces of equipment
and technology. So I was really fascinated about that area.
(04:00):
And I guess fast forward after my degree, I came
across to Melbourne and I landed a job with The
Wiggles characters, so I was a production manager there. And
part of that role was to sort of set up,
you know, the stages for The Wiggles characters to come
on and do their shows and shopping malls and things
like that. So I wasn't quite involved yet in nonprofit,
but my manager at the time, he brought me across
(04:21):
because he left that job and I went across into
Starlight Children's Foundation, where that was really my first taste
of working with children with disability, working with children with
severe sickness illness. And also, I was part of setting
up some pretty complex technology systems there at the time.
So it's been a wonderful change to come to Vision Australia.
(04:42):
That was eight years ago now, um, where we moved
from Melbourne to Geelong and that whole build up over
my degree, over working with Starlight Children's Foundation really set
me up well to be able to work as a
technology specialist, combining two things that I love, which is
technology and, you know, training and talking to people. So, um, yeah,
very lucky to be in this role.
S1 (05:01):
On talking tech this week I'm speaking with Kent Walsdorf,
who's an Access technology lead with Vision Australia based in Geelong.
Let's talk more about your roles, particularly, I think the
education one, as it's around the time of the year
where people are getting organised for another year of learning.
S2 (05:19):
Absolutely. So if we sort of talk about people going
into study and this can be a range of different people,
you know, from, you know, children in primary school, high school, college,
if you're in Tasmania, right into university, what we sort
of talk about when we go to work with students
is that there's a whole bunch of people involved in
that conversation. So it's the student. Sometimes it's the parents
(05:40):
are involved in that conversation. If they're young, we will
talk with the teachers, sometimes even with the universities. And
really what we try and do is understand some of
the challenges that those people may be facing, and that
could be access to the curriculum, it could be access
around the school. And we, you know, provide solutions. So
I think one of the big takeaways that I've come
(06:02):
away with over the years is that there's not one
tool that that sort of works for everything. It's really
about building a toolkit. And we talk about that a
lot in our assessments, is that you might have one
particular piece of equipment that might do one thing really well,
but you need something else along the way as well.
And uh, nowadays, I think in a lot of the
schools that I visit, you know, iPads are a really
(06:23):
popular product because of the, I guess, their ease of use,
they very rarely break down. But also the built in
accessibility is pretty important for for some of the students
that I work with. So yeah, gearing up for school,
I think it's really about understanding the curriculum, understanding who's teaching,
and really working with both educators, parents and students to
make sure that they do have the right tools because
(06:46):
I have seen it when it doesn't work. I have
seen it when a student doesn't have the right piece
of equipment that they need, and it really sets them
up to a challenging time to get through their course
or get through the the year. So I find it
really important to make sure that, you know, conversations are
had with the right people, that the technology is trialled
and that they do get the right piece of equipment
(07:07):
or multiple pieces of equipment to make sure they are
successful in their courses.
S1 (07:11):
Tell us about your work consulting with the corporate world.
S2 (07:15):
The work that I've done previously is that we might
have someone who may have a vision impairment that's been
deteriorating over a short period of time. And really, what's
happening there is that the employer is keen on making
sure that the right adjustments are made for that employee.
So I'll go in there and I'll fire up jaws.
And if they're a screen reader user, I would start
(07:35):
testing that system. Really, my work involved with companies and
businesses is that I will actually go and fire up
jaws on their computer and actually test their system from
start to finish, and it can be quite thorough. We
we really look at the entire workflow of what a
person might have to go through on a daily basis,
and from that we'll present a pretty in depth report
(07:55):
about that again. There might be things that they haven't
thought of. And again, it could be things as simple as,
you know, equipment that they need to be able to
access their work. It's not necessarily always a change in
their system or change in their software. It can be
other things as well. So that one is something that's
really interesting because every workplace is different. Every person that's
trying to access their platform or their work has a
(08:18):
different set of challenges. So I quite enjoy that part
of the job because, um, yeah, there's a lot of
things to think about, and I love it when we
do actually make change and help people to, you know,
get on with their work, because often that's just what
they want to be able to do.
S1 (08:31):
Um, tell me about what for you must have been
a real effort to go from being a person who
uses technology in what we might describe as the usual
or the majority way, and putting yourself into the headspace
of somebody who's not looking at the screen or not
looking at it very much. They might be a low
(08:53):
vision person. That must have been quite a quite a
transition for you.
S2 (08:56):
It was. Um, so I don't have a vision impairment myself.
I think when I started the role, there were certain
things that I could do that were not. Not easy,
but easier than being able to fire up a screen reader.
So if it was something to do with, you know,
working a magnifier or if it was something to do
with working, you know, some of the other tools that
(09:17):
we have, the wearable technology, I could understand that and
I could teach that quite easily. When you throw yourself
into the world of screen reading, that can be quite
challenging for someone that's visual because you rely on your
vision so much. And I actually found that quite difficult
to start with, and it got to a point where
I would go out and I would be working with
(09:37):
some Jaws power user, you know, someone that's been using
it for years. And I found myself feeling that I
wasn't able to really hone my skills and to help
that person. Basically, what I was still doing is relying
on my vision at the time. So what I had
to learn was to first of all use and learn
all the keyboard shortcuts. So Jaws, for example. And I
(09:58):
did that by using them daily. So I would go
into work and I would be firing up outlook, firing
up my computer, and just trying to remember the amount
of keyboard shortcuts that I needed to deliver that. And
the second part of that was I would use jaws daily.
It's something that I've been working pretty hard at over
the last 3 or 4 years, and I actually use
it now for things like proofreading. I'll listen to my
(10:20):
own documentation and my own reports with audio, because I
find I actually pick up a lot more things with
audio than what I do visually, in particular grammar and
spelling mistakes. So for me, I found that actually using
these tools daily gave me a lot more comfort in
teaching the technology. But also every now and then I'll
turn off the screen, and that really puts you into
(10:43):
a position of you've only got your audio to rely on,
you can only listen to jaws, and all of a
sudden you're in the same position as the clients that
you're trying to service. And service. And I find that
that is really, really important is to understand exactly what
they're going through and then tailor how you present the
information or how you train accordingly.
S1 (11:02):
As a person who's been blind all their life. And
so I haven't had to go through the transition that
most users have to go through from the visual world
to the speech or braille world, even as a low
vision or blind person. What do you talk to people about?
Who you're working with, who are going through that transition?
(11:24):
And I reckon we'd be wanting to hold on to
try and look at the screen as much as possible
and would be really struggling sometimes to read text, etc..
S2 (11:32):
There can be quite challenging and rightly so for a
lot of people. And I think what I tend to do,
especially in schools where I see students, that they actually
become at a disadvantage, relying on their vision as opposed
to transitioning across into speech. And I think it's something
that you have to tackle with sensitivity, and I think
(11:53):
you have to sort of coach them through and you
have to allow them to understand potentially the benefit of
using speech more as opposed to their vision. So it's
a very gentle approach. At least that's the way that
I do it. Just recently, actually, I was working with
a student and they were reading a piece of text
and I said, okay, we're going to just get you
to read that text, see how you go. And there
(12:13):
was just a paragraph. And then after that I got
them to listen to it. And I said, well, how
did you find your comprehension with that text? Did you
find it easier reading, or did you find it easier
listening to it? And they said, well, you know, actually
just listening to it, I can probably give you more
information about what I read. And I said, not only that,
what did you think of the speed? Like how quickly
(12:33):
were you able to read that information. And they said, well,
much quicker with audio. So something like that can help
people to understand that you may still use your vision
in a certain way, and that's absolutely fine. Each person
is completely different. But if you look into the audio
side of things where you need it, especially people with
severe vision loss. You might find that it becomes easier
(12:54):
to get through information quickly. Not only that, I've seen
and heard of experiences where people that sometimes move from
their vision to audio, other things happen, like they reduce
the amount of headaches they might have. At the end
of the day, they rely on their vision so much
that end of day headaches sort of come through. And,
you know, all the glare in the classroom and things
like that.
S1 (13:14):
And once, once they're used to the audio less fatigue.
S2 (13:17):
Yeah, absolutely. So that's that's actually quite a common thing
that I've seen a lot in schools is that, um,
when they suffer from fatigue and they start to use audio,
they can continue with the learning and being able to
get through content. So that transition very different for a
lot of people, but it's an important one to help
people understand the benefits of using speech, if that's if
(13:37):
that's required for them.
S1 (13:39):
Yeah. Very interesting. It's been great chatting with you today, Kent,
and I'm sure people have found it interesting to learn
what goes into your thinking behind the scenes of just the. Yes,
I talk to these people and I installed this equipment, etc.
it's a lot more to it than that. In the
access technology world. So good on you and hope to
have you back on talking tech again sometime.
S2 (13:59):
Thanks, Steven. Appreciate the chat.
S1 (14:01):
I've been speaking with Kent Walsdorf, who's an Access Technology
lead with Vision Australia based in Geelong. He's been telling
us about his role with Vision Australia. Just before we go,
a reminder you can find details of this program and
previous editions by going to VA radio, Talking Tech, VA radio,
(14:24):
Talking Tech. And you can write to the program at
Vision Australia. Is the naughty boys still looking at his emails?
Damo McMorrow at Vision Australia. Org. This has been talking tech.
I'm Stephen Jolley. Stay safe. We'll talk more tech next week.
See you.
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