August 3, 2025 • 43 mins
Today on the podcast we chat with psychologist Shannon Swales and answer questions you sent in to us.
We talk about burnout management as nurses and health professionals. Shannon gives advice on how to avoid burnout, how to care for yourself as a nurse and what to look for in yourself and your colleagues if you are concerned about burnout.
This is a common sense chat around self-care. Whether you have experienced burnout and slowly recovering or are on the precipice of burnout, Shannon shares valuable advice for us all.
Sponsored by Nutricia. This episode was created independently by the presenters/speakers and the views expressed herein are those of the presenters/speakers, not of Nutricia. This content is intended for healthcare professionals. Medical professionals should rely on their own skill and assessment of individual patients.
Burnout Psychology Support
Burnout Recovery Coaching & Counselling | Shannon Swales, Psychologist
Tenderness for Nurses
www. Tendernessfornurses.com.au
Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/tendernessnurses
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appodjay production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tenantus for Nurses.
I suspec Woodbine here this season. I am so excited
to announce that the podcast is being supported by Nutritia,
which is a global leader in medical nutrition. They understand
the needs of nurses in the nutrition space and for
over one hundred and twenty five years have provided products
(00:31):
to support child health. Some of Nutrita's pediatric brands include
Neo Kate Junior for children who have food allergies and
app to Grow for those fussy eaters. And those of
us who have children know many kids who go through
the phases of definite fussiness. For more information and resources,
visit the nutritiona Pediatrics hub at nutritia dot com dot
(00:54):
au forward slash Pediatrics. I just want to say a
huge thank you to Nutritia. Their desire to support nurses
is truly appreciated, and they are allowing me to continue
this podcast so that we can all grow as nurses.
This season, we have some amazing speakers in the pediatric
space which I cannot wait to share with you all. Hi,
(01:14):
my name's Beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for nurses.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
to be.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
So I hit it and parked it for nearly four years.
We always have free will, We always get to choose.
We are autonomous.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tenderness
for nurses. Due to popular demand, we have the fabulous
psychologist Shannon Swalls, and I put a little message out
to ask for some questions around what you guys would
like to hear around burnout because I am seeing in
nursing groups and online and in different forums just how
(01:54):
many of you are feeling burnt out, exhausted, used, abused,
and having myself been affected by burnout and Shannon being
affected by burnout. She has decided to specialize within this
space as a psychologist, so we are really super lucky
to have her as our resident psychologist to answer some
(02:16):
of your questions. And we've got some great questions, and
the big one that was overwhelming was what is burnout
and what are the science and symptoms burnout? So Shannon,
do you think you can run through those with us? Please?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Certainly? Can? I?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
First all safe, thank you for having me back in
that lovely introduction. I mean I feel that whole residence psychologist.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I'm happy to be that for you.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I love these kind of spaces which are really community
building and having these really pertinent discussions because my experience,
at least as a psychologist, in.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
My little corner of my world, it wasn't talked about,
and I.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Was like stuff that when it happened to me, and
it took a while for me to feel okay to
share it and talk about it. And I think it's
just important. So I'm really happy and I feel blessed
to be here, so onto this really important question burnout.
If I looked at or when we look at the
World Health Organizational definition of burnout, it doesn't quite capture
(03:23):
the essence of burnout. It's what we work with at
the moment, and I want to acknowledge that definition, but
I also want to expand on it as well in
my clinical and also lived experience of it as well
in other people's lived experience, and just what is really
being captured out there too, in other people's loved experiences and.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Working in the area.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So the World Health Organization classifies it as an occupational phenomenon,
so that the stress all is the workplace or the work,
so it's our occupation, and it presents as emotional exhaustion
as one of the major sort of characteristic of this phenomena.
(04:07):
It's not classified as a medical condition. That's why they
call it a phenomena, even though it is. We all
know it's very much something we're all suffering or a
lot of us are suffering from out there. But emotional exhaustion,
which a lot of my experience, personal and professional has
taught me, is that it's a bone tide, a sol tide.
It's an emotional, mental, and physical exhaustion. The World Health
(04:31):
Organization identifies that it's often a disconnect as well, or
a depersonalization or just I don't care about my work anymore,
Like we're noticing, we're distancing, we're disconnecting, and it's often
seen as more of an impact of burnout rather than
a symptom. But more of what will happen as a
(04:51):
result of that emotional exhaustion. And the other one is
that we can start to feel like we're not getting anywhere,
that sense of achievement. Like a lot of people who
burn out are high functioning individuals.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
We're high achievers.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
We love to get stuffed done help our patients our
clients out, but we feel like we're getting nowhere or worse,
we sometimes feel like we're no good at what we do.
Our sense of professional ability declines. Even though people are going, hey,
are you doing a fantastic job?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Our clients are loving us, we don't feel it. Another
impact what I want to expand on in that definition
and classification a bit of the symptomology there is that
we're recognizing it and we're including in this burnout not
just the paid occupational side of things, but a lot
of the caregiving roles that go unpaid, parental burnout, caregiver burnout,
(05:46):
activist burnout, and also managing chronic illness or managing neurodivergency,
Like I've got a few chronically ill clients, a number
of neurodivergent clients, and they're having to ongoingly manage either
their chronic illnesses or their neurotype because the world is
not designed to support living in a neurotypical or an
(06:11):
able bodied world. So they're dealing with.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
These kind of systems and that can put a stress,
a load emotionally, mentally and physically on their body. The
biggest takeaway from classification of burnout is it is chronic stress.
So stress but chronic like there's no gap or there's
not enough gap. So our bodies in this constant state
(06:35):
of stress due to those things, whether it's occupational caregiving, activism,
managing chronic illness, living in a neurotypical world but being neurodivergent,
our body is in a constant state of stress to
the point of overwhelm. Then we get things like muscular
skeletal issues. I had huge shoulder, neck, headache issues, getting
(06:57):
sick all the time, snapping out, our partners, relationship.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Issues, increase sick days.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
There's just stress impacts every single part of our life,
really inside and outside of us. So the list of
symptoms and signs are very long, very long. I should
think one many people have.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
It can be a bit ambiguous. I didn't realize I
had burnout, but I can look back now and having
done the research I've done and spoken to you, and
it has been a long process. And it's very interesting
you say about not wanting to go to work. I
own my own business and I've always loved working, but
(07:39):
running a business, working in the business is hard, hard work.
And then seeing patient one after the other every half hour.
It isn't easy. My back became bad, but I didn't
want to go to work and it was my business,
it was my baby, and you know I had always
loved it, but I did not want to go into
(08:01):
the club and people go, oh, you're such a great injector.
We love it.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
But sick with me that debilitating effect of our body
just being under that load of stressful way too long,
even with something we enjoyed or enjoy but we're noticing
that dissatisfaction or lack of pleasure or no pleasure, no interest,
especially for people like yourself. And I see this in
(08:26):
my clients, and that was a part of my burnout
profile as well.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
There was no spark anymore.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
There was no desire, and worse, I felt like I
was pretending to care and that's not me, but that
was me under burnout. That's something I always stress my clients.
It's not you, but it's you under burnout because you
are a human with a certain biology and when we're
experiencing stress to that extent, that is what happens to
(08:56):
a human. Burnout is not a personal failure. It is
a result of meeting demands with out the resources to
meet that demand for a long period of time.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Is anxiety? Is it a symptom of anxiety?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Can say?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Look, I mean when we're talking about the stress response
in our body, this is why the symptoms are quite long,
because I want to find things to simplify something that's
complex with still sharing that complexity of this phenomena, this condition,
but also simplifying it to help myself but help others
out there that if we think about it as and
(09:36):
it is a chronic stress and learn about and know
about how stress impacts our system, then yes, anxiety is
going to be a symptom.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Low mood is going to be a symptom.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Depression is going to be well, I'm not talking about
the disorder, the condition, but having low moods will be
a symptom because when chronic stress is around, it's very
normal for our mood to dip, it's very normal for
our anxiety to spark. So when we understand and that
the baseline is that we're dealing with a body that's
chronically stressed, a mind and body, anxiety, depression, lots of symptoms,
(10:15):
digestive issues, yeah, hair falling out because stress, our sympathetic
nervous system being on all the time. That and our
nervous system is connected to every single Like I'm not
a medical doctor, so they need to teach us sites
a little smidgen of the physiology side, but it's connected.
(10:36):
It all is skin issues, dry mouth, there's so many
things racing mind, thoughts.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Not switching, icy heart, get dry man.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Panic attacks. I've had a few clients.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Wasn't my experience, but experiencing panic attacks as but they
had the predisposing of what was happening beforehand was that
there were constantly elevated stress, chronic stress, and the panic
attacks were an offshoot of that of the system just
over extended, overused, but just to try to meet the
(11:07):
demands of the life that the industry, they're in, the patients,
they're working with, the kids, their household at home, just
managing life.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Is too much.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I knew I was in trouble when I woke up
and I was highly anxious, didn't want to go to work,
and I had terrible shakes, like I was shaking like
a leaf. And I saw this new patient and went
to injector and I couldn't hold a needle. I couldn't
hold a needle straight. I burst into tears new client.
(11:39):
Can you imagine, Oh my god. It was as she's
come back, bless her. But I was in such a
state that I don't even know how because I was
able to do one, and then coming in from the
angles makes it more complex. But I goes, I have
to go home. I can't stop shaking, stop crying, and
(12:01):
everyone's going, oh my god. And it was at that
point I went I saw the psychiatrist and start a TMS,
which actually helped. But that would have to be one
of the most horrendous moments of my life. So mortified
doing the most basic of and basic contecting and I
(12:22):
couldn't do it.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And this is often the whole mortification of embarrassment or
shame that we feel because the brain's saying, hey, this
is something I do every day, I do quite easily,
and what's going on. There's that whole cycle of judgment
or evaluation going on internally that is on top of
(12:43):
a very human experience you're having because of that chronic
stress you've been holding for so long and now it's
coming out in certain ways in your body.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
And that's often what I'm working with with my clients.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
And it was something I had to work on because
I had a lot of shame and embarrassment because I
could no longer show up in front of my clients either.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I was a mess, I was crime. It didn't happen
in front of a climate.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
That happened in front of my director and my supervisor, thankfully,
very beautiful women who held that space for me, and
both have lived through it themselves.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
So thankful.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
But I didn't know that at the time, and it
took to the point that I couldn't see clients anymore
for me to break down and share that with them.
But anyway that it gets to that place, it's not
a unique story. It's a horrific thing to go through.
Horrific And if anyone and I know that will be
out there experiencing this internal dialogue of shame or embarrassment,
(13:39):
I know it's easy for me to say, now, you
have nothing to be embarrassed about. You have nothing to
feel shameful about. You are a human first, and humans
under chronic stress loads will break and that's not a failure.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That is biology. I always say this to my clients.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
We're not robots, we're human, but we're living in these
systems that forget our humanness.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I'm kind to everyone else. The dialogue in my own
head can be anything. But is that common in burnout
or is that common in a functioning people? Or is
that someone's that me an article the other day that
someone five to ten percent of the population have here nothing,
there's nothing in here, as in, they don't talk to themselves.
(14:24):
They's silence, and I'm like, oh God, that'd.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Be a they I don't know them.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
That was something I noticed early on in my career.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
It felt like every single person I'm working with here,
whether they have depression, PTSD, anxiety, whatever their diagnosis or
presentation or level of functioning, they have this dialogue of
absolute negativism towards themselves, judgment, evaluation, negative comparison. I call
(14:56):
it the not good enough story or the shame story.
I was like, wow, it didn't matter what the diagnosis was.
This was a common thread, such a common thread that
are really well known. Psychologist doctor Paul Gilbert uk Man,
he was noticing this in his career and he was
I think a psychologist back.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
In the seventies. I think he's early training, and he.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Was using cognitive behavioral therapy, standard practice still used, but
he was noticing this wasn't enough to help with these
people who had this really deep, horrible relationship with themselves.
He developed compassion focus therapy over the years, and now
it's quite readily used amongst practitioners psychologists still getting out
(15:40):
there like I utilize. I'm trained at a CFT practitioner,
and most people I see who are burnt out this
is part of their presentation as well. It's not exclusive
to burnout, but it's certainly a trend in a lot
of psychological conditions and a lot of high functioning people
who don't meet any diagnoses as well. And I don't
(16:02):
know the stats on this, but i'd put money on
it that it's worse in women than men because of
our different socialization in this world as women and as men.
I'm not saying that men wouldn't and they certainly do
suffer from this as well, and I've seen it in practice,
but I just feel it might skew more to the
women because of the different cultural social expectations around men
(16:26):
and women. I don't want to exclude because yeah, I've
worked with some quite highly self critical men.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
So do you think if I set up the podcast
and I was like, yeah, I'm just going to do
this because this is something I want to do. I
want to try and help my colleagues. And then in
my head, I was like, going, what makes you think
you can do that? You've never done a podcast before?
What makes anyone want to think they're going to listen
to you?
Speaker 1 (16:49):
What?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
And I'm like, why do I do this to myself?
And then I put my head in and started the pod.
Just took the step. But we're just so self critical
of trying anything new or why would anyone listen to us?
Or why do we think we're good? You know?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, I remember that coming out.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
One of my go to strategies and one I shared
with of course clients is not everyone's go to.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
But I journal.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
And when I decided to write my book about my
journey through burnout in order to take that step, Yeah,
I had a lot of self doubt, a lot of
critical coming up, and I decided a journal about it
and keep a record of it.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I still have it.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
And how nasty that voice was and how critical, like
who are you to talk about your stuff? You know,
like who's going to listen? And I wanted to put
that in the book. Actually I gave that to the editor,
but she was like, no, but maybe I might release that,
because whenever we're trying something new, that's often where the
critic comes are.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
It's I know mine's being there.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
You know, certainly along the way in my psychology career,
she's less so now because I've worked on the antidote
to self criticism, which is self compassion. I'm a very
big believer, not just because of the evidence and the research,
but because what I see in practice and what I
see in myself. It doesn't turn off the critic, but
it develops a different part of you that can stand
(18:12):
up and show up and support you like a best friend,
like a really good friend who's going to be that
fierce supporter next to you, or way like that. Yeah.
She also kicks you up your butt when you're doing
something wrong too, don't get me wrong. Yeah, but she's
not going to judge you. She's going to see the
human in you that's for you.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah. One of the questions we got was, and this
was from a couple of different people and they were nurses,
is how can we avoid burnout?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah? I liked this question.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
One of the things that first came to my mind
is language is important because it can shift how we
see something.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
And when I hear that word of void, it.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Already has like a bit of an anxiety or a
threat like burnouts, this bad thing that I can't have.
And let's not get this wrong. It is a horrible
thing to go through. And I'm not sugarcoating painting a.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Rose and picture.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
But when we see something as a threat, our physiology
is designed to avoid it, and that can actually be
detrimental because we can become hyper vigilant to the signs
of burnout. Now we want to be vigilant, but we
don't want to be hyper because remember how many things
are signs of burnout. If we're going good, I'm not sleeping, well,
(19:28):
oh I must be burnout or I'm feeling anxious. We
just but like I think, what can we do rather
than avoid burnout? How can I best support myself in
this world, in this industry and this and I say
world because burnout, as I was saying earlier, it's not
just an occupational phenomena. There's a lot of things that
are influencing our stress in the modern world we live in.
(19:52):
So how can I best take care of myself so
it doesn't get to there. The other thing I wanted
to mention is burnout is a systemic issue. It is
an individual issue as well, and it's the relationship between
the systems wherein our organization, our teams, our families, our
caregiving roles. You know, it's the system, but also how
(20:14):
you as an individual and what you're bringing to it.
And a lot of the systems we work in have
high demands on us and they do not have the
resources for us to meet those demands. And even though
I'm not a nurse and I certainly don't have firsthand
experience in living or knowing that industry from the inside out,
I hear that that is definitely a dynamic that's going
(20:36):
on in that industry.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So the reality is the reason I'm.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Mentioning that it's a systemic issue that demand resources is
how do you avoid burnout when you constantly show up
in a system that is designed to burn you out?
And that is not a fallow in your part, but
a failure on our system, and the system needs to change.
But in saying all that too, there are ways we
can scaffold and resource ourselves to operate in that system.
(21:04):
We can take agency over, but it doesn't mean that
we might not see some early signs of that chronic stress, like, Okay,
maybe I'm got a low level of burnout and I'm
needing to make some chefs or changes here, but I
wanted to in this discussion around avoiding burnout or taken
care of ourselves is one that language change, but too
(21:26):
if you're operating in systems that demand more of you
than the resources they can give you to help meet
those demands.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Now, I want to show up for work as a nurse, well, one.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Hundred percent that's what I like. And I've talked to
a few nurses.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I was just actually having conversation like she's been in
the nursing industry across two different countries.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
The demand verse resources is huge, but I think even
being able to acknowledge the gap and know that that's
not your responsibility or your thing to fix, can be
quite powerful and in and of itself, and being able
to focus on how do I resource me because even
though my industry is different, my industry is also severely
under resource. Mental health industry, Yeah, it's friends of crap.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
There's also some really wonderful things that and wonderful resources
we have, but there's major gaps, and I acknowledge that,
and I know that that's not my agency to fix
or where I want to put my energy orf fight,
but I can support this person. How do I show
up in this industry? It's important for me. I want
to still be here, But how do I show up?
(22:28):
And what can I do to help me continue to
show up in that? And that's where our power is.
Where you don't want to put energy in trying to
advocate for change in your industry, which is totally fine,
you don't have to. How can I resource me so
I don't burn out or I don't severely burn out
to the point of not being able to work again.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Interestingly, when I was recently in hospital, amazing nurses on
board and they took wonderful care of me, and I'm
very very grateful. But one of the girls came in
and she had already done a twelve hour shift, then
another eight hour shift on top of that because they
had no not enough staff, And then they asked her
(23:12):
if she would do the turnaround and come in for
an early shift the next morning, and I said to her,
I hope you said no, and she said, oh, I
did today. But sometimes there's just no stuff. So we
have to do what we have to do. And I
said yes, but if there was a medication era because
of fatigue, would you be supported. She said no, it'd
(23:33):
be my fault. And I said, yes, it would be
your fault that you did a wrong medication. But it
could occur because you're exhausted. You've just done a twenty
hour shift the day before, haven't had an eight hour break,
and you're expected to come back to work. And yes,
I know there's renumeration for that sort of thing, but
(23:56):
you know you can't do that in a mine because
it's a whole management.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Yeah, in my in law family, bunch of pilots in
that industry, and even the flight attendants because of the
safety issues, they're in charge, and not just the pilots,
but the whole crew. They're responsible for those three something occupants.
There is very strict rules and so there should be.
But this needs to be transferred to healthcare. So there
(24:22):
wouldn't be aligne manager or whoever asking this person to
stay back, because that shouldn't be happening.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
A person shouldn't. I know who's going to.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
See to these patients, but who's going to see to
this nurse who will end up leaving her career because
she's so exhausted, or maybe end up losing relationships as
a result. Like what's the cost and to the patients
as well, because there will be a cost to them too,
Like you said, you know, a wrong medication or something happens.
I know we don't have all the answers, but I
(24:53):
think this is where something came up as you were
sharing that to This is why self compassion and there's
a lot of research around this why it's such an
important component to develop and grow in ourselves because it
can help us set boundaries. It can help us say
no when a system is saying we need you, or
(25:14):
helps you say no and prioritize yourself when you know
there's a lot of patients who need you, but you
also need you, or your family needs you, or you
just you know or be able to let it go.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Leave the study And why aren't they employing more stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Easy said than done? But I remember one of the reasons.
Although I was really really sick, and I was starting
to realize I wasn't and I say sick, I was
burnt out. But I like using the word sick because
I was that generation that if you're not dead, you
show up to work. So I was lucky because of
my psychology training. I got used to taking mental health
sick days. But I still use the word sick to
(25:51):
really emphasize that it's okay. So when I was sick,
I just remember so starting to recognize that I wasn't okay.
I didn't have the language of burnout, because funny psychologists
didn't have the language of burnout back then in twenty twenty.
But I was just like, well, who's to see these clients.
I knew the industry already had wait less. I had
lots of long term clients are very used to me
(26:12):
and feeling safe with me, and I knew there wouldn't
be anyone else to see them.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
And we're heading into COVID. We're in COVID. I can
see forward.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
And I was long enough in the industry to know that, Okay,
the mental health crisis hasn't hit yet, but it's going
to hit.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I was like, this is.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Going to roll on.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
And I'm a bit more neurotic, so I see things.
Sometimes they don't happen, but I and so I was
already feeling that pressure. And I was just like well,
how can I put myself first?
Speaker 1 (26:38):
And back then, my compassion wasn't loud, and my self
compassion and certainly my other like having compassionate supporters wasn't
loud either because I wasn't sharing.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I wasn't talking out loud or getting support back then
beyond my supervision. But even then I wasn't talking out
to get that help or that compassion back like that
stopped me from stopping when I needed to or reducing
my clientele, at least before it got worse.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, if our leadership doesters, what should we do to
care for ourselves in that work environment?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Yeah, this is such an important question because I hear
time and time again clients who come to see me, Well,
I have gone to my leadership, I have expressed I
need XYZ to be able to do my job, or
we need.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
More people on our team, or something like.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
They've expressed that they're not doing okay, that they need
help and lending on death fears. This is where I've
talked to a few people more in the organizational psychology
area or have that real HR, but mental health and
being separate from the actual business HR. I've talked to
some really passionate people there who have turned into more
(27:45):
coaching sort of style of thing, and they were talking
about that, really needing to know and understand what kind
of rights or what's the policies and procedures to see
if there's.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Any avenues where if you can go higher up.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Or outside of your workplace, like Fair Work Australia because
we have psychosocial safety laws now. And I know this
is really hard ass when we're already worn out, but
knowing what your rights are inside or outside your industry
your organization is important. But more than anything, find your people, like,
don't do it alone. If your leadership's not supporting you.
(28:22):
Is there a trusted peer in your workplace or someone
in the industry but not on site, but they understand
your industry, A supervisor, a mentor maybe a senior, maybe
someone you went to UNI with. Build your people so
you don't feel alone, because I think that's one of
the worst things is we can feel quite isolated, but
there's bound to be someone else that's not being heard
(28:45):
that can be a really great scaffolding or resource. Maybe
it doesn't change, but what changes is your stressed out
system has a comrade, it has a peer, and that matters.
As humans, we can weather a lot of crappy systems
or challenges.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Like I think of.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Mothers groups like I've never had that lived experience, but
just vicarious.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
It depends on the mother's group.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
But I hear like you're in this new system, this
very vulnerable child infant, and you know, new role and
having other people who were living that too, there's something
powerful and magical about that. You may still be struggling
and stress, but it's different when you have those compassionate
(29:30):
others Like.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
I loved my mother's group. We were such a diverse
group and we could all and we could party, not
that we ever did when we had the kids. They
were my soul sisters when we were right in the
trenches with the kids, and as were my sisters and
my mum, and we all had each other's back, so
we all help each other out. It was wonderful.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
That made me think of my first job back after
because I stepped away due to my burnout from my career,
and I stepped into a teaching role for a while.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
A few months later, I took a.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Step back and didn't work for a bit and I
went part time, but it was a new position but
it didn't take long because I had some knowledge and
wisdom by then about the workplace factors impacting your mental
health that I learned that this place wasn't particularly a
great place for looking after yourself.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
And the direct leadership they were doing their best.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
They were accessible and willing, but the higher up from
them making the decisions, the pout beats didn't give to
It was about numbers on seats, you know, students in
They didn't care about the human.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Who was teaching their students, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Anyway, I decided to because I needed that job for
a while, I needed money in the bank. I decided
to create because I wasn't the only one. I was
starting to talk out in a few peers and establish
some connections, and.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
I decided to start a support group.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
And I spoke to my direct leadership, who supported that,
like there were certain things he had to keep a secret,
which really sucks, because this group was just about us
coming together and talking about the challenges of the position,
how best to support each other, just whatever we needed.
I mean, one session, one of the guys used to
be a barrister. He brought in his machine and we
sat around and had coffees but this is what the
(31:13):
group was about. It was an hour for us and
it was on work time and we got our work done.
I mean, geez, we all worked really hard. We did
have that leadership support. I mean he eventually retired after
I left, so that protective factors gone, but it certainly
wasn't If the leadership leadership.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Found out what that was about, they wouldn't have had
a bar of that. And I just wanted to stress
the I call that collective CAD.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Self care is important and that would be something else
I would encourage when leadership's not supporting you as come
back to yourself and look after yourself.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
But find your people. We need people. Just like you'll
find another mother who's struggling and will benefit from a
mother's group. There'll be someone in your els.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I also think people need to remember the power of
an incident report. Yeah, if there aren't enough staff and
people aren't being looked after, or if there's a fall
because there aren't enough people around, you need to fill
in an instant report because they have to be looked
at and they have to be dealt with and you
can't neglect them. They have to be signed off by leadership.
(32:21):
They have to go to workplace health and safety. There
is huge power in that, and you might be labeled
a problematic person or whatever. But instant reports protect you
but also protect your patients and your colleagues. Now I'm
not saying you write and instant report for you know,
(32:42):
someone farted the wrong way. You know that's being ridiculous.
But if there's not enough staff, if there's fatigue, if
you're really concerned about the safety of your patients, you
fill in an instant report and it's very powerful. It
may you know, nurses are renowned for making nurses lives hard.
(33:02):
Workplace health and safety is renound for, but it's there
for a reason, and once it's flagged and flagged on
numerous occasions, something has to be done about it.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, that's where knowing the psychosocial and look I'm no
workplace health and safety expert, but knowing and these days
psychosocial in it.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Not just the physical how of things that yeah, putting
in those incident reports around the things that you're noticing
are not safe there, but first equipping ourselves.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
With the knowledge around that.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
And that's where places are always like plugging, like Beyond
Blue has done a ton of work and it's all
free and accessible for workplaces and workers, individuals, everyone out
there on burnout and the factors workplace, those workplace factors
that are psychosocial hazards and Australia fur work.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Australia will have all that information.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah, and what are those incident reports because those things
should be in place now.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
I know we're still in that transitional phase, but this
is a learning experience and it's safety for everyone because
it trickles down to the patients, the public and to you.
You can become a patient. We don't want you to
become a patient. We don't want you.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
You know. Having been in hospital this year, it's hard
being on the other side and seeing things, whether it's
good or bad. It certainly opens your eyes to things
that are going on in healthcare, and I have to
be honest, it makes me really sad and it makes
me worry for the future of health care in this country.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
I will second that with the mental health side, but
in all the industries of the people that I've spoken to,
and most of it is healthcare. Yeah, if they don't
start to make the changes upstream, well we call it
upstream because the changes really need to happen culturally and
industry wise, organizational wise, and we're starting to make some chefs,
(34:54):
especially with the advent of psychosocial safety, but still a
ways to go.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yeah, Okay, As a leader, how can we assist our
team to minimize burnout?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
One of the things that comes to me is lead
by example.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I know a lot of leaders out there are suffering
from burnout as well because they're under resource to meet
the demands of their job. So lead by example in
terms of you know, learning as an individual, living our
lives out there, how do I look after my mental health?
How do I take care of that? What factors, what
things are triggering my mental health declines or whatever. So
(35:36):
there's the lead by example aspect. But look, if you
know you're doing well, you're okay. Knowledge knowledge is power.
If you want to help prevent burnout in your workplace,
then understanding what burnout is. You don't have to be
a psychologist, don't have to be a coach, you don't
need to know this inside out. But there's so much
(35:56):
free knowledge out there it's very easy to I mean,
there's your podcast in our episode, like, there's so much
out there and just have a brief understanding about it.
But for leaders, I'd recommend understand what the workplace factors
are that contribute to burnout, like workload, What am I
expecting of my team to do? And is that realistic?
(36:19):
And you'll only know if it's realistic if you check
in with your team. Do my colleagues have autonomy over
their work or are they constantly told and controlled what
they can be?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Promot it?
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Things like clear communication.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
I mean, no one's perfect, We're not expecting perfection here,
but is there clear role descriptions and task descriptions and
I'm being clear on what's expected of them when I'm
communicating and also on the communication bit too.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I don't think this is noted in.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
The literature, but certainly in my clinical experience that if
we're in a leadership role or any role where we're
dealing with humans, learning to be open to having difficult conversations,
which I'll put my hand up I found really hard
and really had to get training in that because, especially
around mental health, a lot of us haven't really had
(37:11):
the learning or exposure how to sit and have that
conversation when our colleague is reporting their struggling, So learning
how to there's a lot of free stuff, and you
don't have to be a counselor.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
I mean, just look at are you Okay?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Day?
Speaker 3 (37:25):
But they do a lot beyond the whole suicide prevention
and response. It's just about having these conversations. And again
you don't have to be a counselor. It's just having
a few scripts or things that you can go to.
So communication is something, and I think every leader they
have a right to receive professional development in order to
(37:47):
upskill in these areas because.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
The leader should be supported in being able to get that.
Or I think only employed leaders who have.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
What often get called the soft skills, but the very
important skills communication, but getting trained in these psychosocial safety aspects,
getting trained in mental first health, first aid, or so
they have some of this ability to be able to
have these conversations. I suppose in summary education, professional development
(38:20):
live by example.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Don't a lot of organizations have those EAP programs. Yeah?
I know. My husband and I went through a really
rough patch and he reached out to the EAP program
and he found them to be fantastic, and he will
talk about this sort of stuff with the guys, and
you gotta understand he's in mining like a trade like.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah, so that very masculine al you don't talk about
this stuff.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
It was interesting the other week he just said to me,
was you know, one of the people he was dealing
with was going through a really rough time and this
colleague of his was quite upset, and you know, Jason
him home. He said, mate, you're not safe to be here.
He gave him the number of the EAP and he said,
I'm here if you want to talk to me. But
I was so proud of him, as you know trade
(39:11):
and he's got a heart and goal, he's the most
gorgeous man. But the fact that he had enough insight
to what he had been through to know the value
of offering that to someone else.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
That lived experience.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Hey, my husband was in a leadership possession and working
in the airline industry at the time, and a lot
of his peers or the people he was managing were men,
most of them, but would come with these distraught and
he was able to, thankfully he's got quite good communication
skills and gave them space, sat them down, really encouraged that. Hey,
(39:47):
I think it's important that you go home today if
you've got someone to speak to and then also talking
about EAP, and he's been through some counseling himself as well,
not through EAP, but some exposure. But I think also
living with the psychics got some of that, and I've
been to the psychologist numbers of times over the years.
I think just sees that value at least vicariously and
(40:08):
through lived experience, and that was part of his leadership
role and what they did there as well. But he
did it very humanely, like he didn't just go here's
the EOP number. Gave them space even though he's got
a hectic days. You know, airlines like busy, busy, busy,
but you know, here's a destroyed colleague needs me just
to pause and be present and support them to the
(40:31):
next step. I don't have to be their counselor. But
what in my resources can I give them. I can
send them home check if they want me to call
their wife or their partner or a friend or family, or
give them the EAP number so they can connect with that.
But yeah, I think that just brings a really nice,
humane leadership communication that you can do. I think that
(40:55):
your example there with your husband and my example, that
is important.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
I think women are better at it. Men are. I
do agree with you. I think probably more women suffer
burnout than men typically.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
That's certainly what shows where if you're a woman, no
more at risk of burnout few men. But the interesting
thing though, but with male burnout, the trend tends to be,
at least in the research capture so far, tends to
be they experience more of the disconnection from works. They're
sort of not giving a crap anymore like, rather than
the emotional exhaustion. Women tend to have more of that. Again,
(41:33):
obviously there can be men that can have the opposite
and women that can have the opposite, but that it's
just interesting because men and women are treated differently in society.
We're raised differently, we're treated differently, so there's going to
be a difference in and we're in different industries as well,
like all can be, so that's.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Going to have impact different Do you think men distance
themselves more from their family when they come home as well?
They sort of internalize going to themselves. We're going to
have to wrap this up, however, there are somequestions, and
I do think once this goes live, we'll do another
round of questions because people can ask open ending questions
(42:14):
around mental health, around burnout, around SELK care. Guy. Guy's
the limit. Shannon's here for us, and she's very open
to coming on regularly and sharing her knowledge and let's
use it. So keep those questions coming. But thank you
so much for your time today. I feel like I've
(42:36):
sort of cut things off a little bit, but the
next lot of questions are actually probably a whole other podcast.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
So happy to come back and be my absolute pleasure.
And like you already said, I mean because there's things
even like especially nurses too, that we haven't talked to,
but like compassion, fatigue, vicarrious trauma, these are things that
I know about as re injury, moral injury as well.
I've moved more into the midlife woman's space. I'm a
(43:05):
midlife woman, but I'm on an expert in everything there,
but just the complexities of being a woman as well,
and our bodies are different, and especially when we grow
through midlife.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Anyway, open questions, fire the matter.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
One of the ones I really want to talk to
you about is empty nest syndrome, which people don't talk
about anymore, but oh my god, it impacted me horrendously. Yeah,
let's aim for something in like four to six weeks,
because by then I'll have a heap of questions. Will
organize another time. Thank you so much everyone for tuning in,
(43:40):
and also a big thank you to Nutritia again who
are sponsoring this podcast this season. I cannot tell how
blessed I feel to have them come on board. And
thank you. Shannon and I once again have learned so
much from you and I really appreciate the time you've
given us.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
My absolute pleasure back. Thank you,
Appodjay production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tenantus for Nurses.
I suspec Woodbine here this season. I am so excited
to announce that the podcast is being supported by Nutritia,
which is a global leader in medical nutrition. They understand
the needs of nurses in the nutrition space and for
over one hundred and twenty five years have provided products
(00:31):
to support child health. Some of Nutrita's pediatric brands include
Neo Kate Junior for children who have food allergies and
app to Grow for those fussy eaters. And those of
us who have children know many kids who go through
the phases of definite fussiness. For more information and resources,
visit the nutritiona Pediatrics hub at nutritia dot com dot
(00:54):
au forward slash Pediatrics. I just want to say a
huge thank you to Nutritia. Their desire to support nurses
is truly appreciated, and they are allowing me to continue
this podcast so that we can all grow as nurses.
This season, we have some amazing speakers in the pediatric
space which I cannot wait to share with you all. Hi,
(01:14):
my name's Beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for nurses.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
to be.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
So I hit it and parked it for nearly four years.
We always have free will, We always get to choose.
We are autonomous.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tenderness
for nurses. Due to popular demand, we have the fabulous
psychologist Shannon Swalls, and I put a little message out
to ask for some questions around what you guys would
like to hear around burnout because I am seeing in
nursing groups and online and in different forums just how
(01:54):
many of you are feeling burnt out, exhausted, used, abused,
and having myself been affected by burnout and Shannon being
affected by burnout. She has decided to specialize within this
space as a psychologist, so we are really super lucky
to have her as our resident psychologist to answer some
(02:16):
of your questions. And we've got some great questions, and
the big one that was overwhelming was what is burnout
and what are the science and symptoms burnout? So Shannon,
do you think you can run through those with us? Please?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Certainly? Can? I?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
First all safe, thank you for having me back in
that lovely introduction. I mean I feel that whole residence psychologist.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I'm happy to be that for you.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
I love these kind of spaces which are really community
building and having these really pertinent discussions because my experience,
at least as a psychologist, in.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
My little corner of my world, it wasn't talked about,
and I.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Was like stuff that when it happened to me, and
it took a while for me to feel okay to
share it and talk about it. And I think it's
just important. So I'm really happy and I feel blessed
to be here, so onto this really important question burnout.
If I looked at or when we look at the
World Health Organizational definition of burnout, it doesn't quite capture
(03:23):
the essence of burnout. It's what we work with at
the moment, and I want to acknowledge that definition, but
I also want to expand on it as well in
my clinical and also lived experience of it as well
in other people's lived experience, and just what is really
being captured out there too, in other people's loved experiences and.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Working in the area.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So the World Health Organization classifies it as an occupational phenomenon,
so that the stress all is the workplace or the work,
so it's our occupation, and it presents as emotional exhaustion
as one of the major sort of characteristic of this phenomena.
(04:07):
It's not classified as a medical condition. That's why they
call it a phenomena, even though it is. We all
know it's very much something we're all suffering or a
lot of us are suffering from out there. But emotional exhaustion,
which a lot of my experience, personal and professional has
taught me, is that it's a bone tide, a sol tide.
It's an emotional, mental, and physical exhaustion. The World Health
(04:31):
Organization identifies that it's often a disconnect as well, or
a depersonalization or just I don't care about my work anymore,
Like we're noticing, we're distancing, we're disconnecting, and it's often
seen as more of an impact of burnout rather than
a symptom. But more of what will happen as a
(04:51):
result of that emotional exhaustion. And the other one is
that we can start to feel like we're not getting anywhere,
that sense of achievement. Like a lot of people who
burn out are high functioning individuals.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
We're high achievers.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
We love to get stuffed done help our patients our
clients out, but we feel like we're getting nowhere or worse,
we sometimes feel like we're no good at what we do.
Our sense of professional ability declines. Even though people are going, hey,
are you doing a fantastic job?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Our clients are loving us, we don't feel it. Another
impact what I want to expand on in that definition
and classification a bit of the symptomology there is that
we're recognizing it and we're including in this burnout not
just the paid occupational side of things, but a lot
of the caregiving roles that go unpaid, parental burnout, caregiver burnout,
(05:46):
activist burnout, and also managing chronic illness or managing neurodivergency,
Like I've got a few chronically ill clients, a number
of neurodivergent clients, and they're having to ongoingly manage either
their chronic illnesses or their neurotype because the world is
not designed to support living in a neurotypical or an
(06:11):
able bodied world. So they're dealing with.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
These kind of systems and that can put a stress,
a load emotionally, mentally and physically on their body. The
biggest takeaway from classification of burnout is it is chronic stress.
So stress but chronic like there's no gap or there's
not enough gap. So our bodies in this constant state
(06:35):
of stress due to those things, whether it's occupational caregiving, activism,
managing chronic illness, living in a neurotypical world but being neurodivergent,
our body is in a constant state of stress to
the point of overwhelm. Then we get things like muscular
skeletal issues. I had huge shoulder, neck, headache issues, getting
(06:57):
sick all the time, snapping out, our partners, relationship.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Issues, increase sick days.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
There's just stress impacts every single part of our life,
really inside and outside of us. So the list of
symptoms and signs are very long, very long. I should
think one many people have.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
It can be a bit ambiguous. I didn't realize I
had burnout, but I can look back now and having
done the research I've done and spoken to you, and
it has been a long process. And it's very interesting
you say about not wanting to go to work. I
own my own business and I've always loved working, but
(07:39):
running a business, working in the business is hard, hard work.
And then seeing patient one after the other every half hour.
It isn't easy. My back became bad, but I didn't
want to go to work and it was my business,
it was my baby, and you know I had always
loved it, but I did not want to go into
(08:01):
the club and people go, oh, you're such a great injector.
We love it.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
But sick with me that debilitating effect of our body
just being under that load of stressful way too long,
even with something we enjoyed or enjoy but we're noticing
that dissatisfaction or lack of pleasure or no pleasure, no interest,
especially for people like yourself. And I see this in
(08:26):
my clients, and that was a part of my burnout
profile as well.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
There was no spark anymore.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
There was no desire, and worse, I felt like I
was pretending to care and that's not me, but that
was me under burnout. That's something I always stress my clients.
It's not you, but it's you under burnout because you
are a human with a certain biology and when we're
experiencing stress to that extent, that is what happens to
(08:56):
a human. Burnout is not a personal failure. It is
a result of meeting demands with out the resources to
meet that demand for a long period of time.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Is anxiety? Is it a symptom of anxiety?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Can say?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Look, I mean when we're talking about the stress response
in our body, this is why the symptoms are quite long,
because I want to find things to simplify something that's
complex with still sharing that complexity of this phenomena, this condition,
but also simplifying it to help myself but help others
out there that if we think about it as and
(09:36):
it is a chronic stress and learn about and know
about how stress impacts our system, then yes, anxiety is
going to be a symptom.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Low mood is going to be a symptom.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Depression is going to be well, I'm not talking about
the disorder, the condition, but having low moods will be
a symptom because when chronic stress is around, it's very
normal for our mood to dip, it's very normal for
our anxiety to spark. So when we understand and that
the baseline is that we're dealing with a body that's
chronically stressed, a mind and body, anxiety, depression, lots of symptoms,
(10:15):
digestive issues, yeah, hair falling out because stress, our sympathetic
nervous system being on all the time. That and our
nervous system is connected to every single Like I'm not
a medical doctor, so they need to teach us sites
a little smidgen of the physiology side, but it's connected.
(10:36):
It all is skin issues, dry mouth, there's so many
things racing mind, thoughts.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Not switching, icy heart, get dry man.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Panic attacks. I've had a few clients.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Wasn't my experience, but experiencing panic attacks as but they
had the predisposing of what was happening beforehand was that
there were constantly elevated stress, chronic stress, and the panic
attacks were an offshoot of that of the system just
over extended, overused, but just to try to meet the
(11:07):
demands of the life that the industry, they're in, the patients,
they're working with, the kids, their household at home, just
managing life.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Is too much.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I knew I was in trouble when I woke up
and I was highly anxious, didn't want to go to work,
and I had terrible shakes, like I was shaking like
a leaf. And I saw this new patient and went
to injector and I couldn't hold a needle. I couldn't
hold a needle straight. I burst into tears new client.
(11:39):
Can you imagine, Oh my god. It was as she's
come back, bless her. But I was in such a
state that I don't even know how because I was
able to do one, and then coming in from the
angles makes it more complex. But I goes, I have
to go home. I can't stop shaking, stop crying, and
(12:01):
everyone's going, oh my god. And it was at that
point I went I saw the psychiatrist and start a TMS,
which actually helped. But that would have to be one
of the most horrendous moments of my life. So mortified
doing the most basic of and basic contecting and I
(12:22):
couldn't do it.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And this is often the whole mortification of embarrassment or
shame that we feel because the brain's saying, hey, this
is something I do every day, I do quite easily,
and what's going on. There's that whole cycle of judgment
or evaluation going on internally that is on top of
(12:43):
a very human experience you're having because of that chronic
stress you've been holding for so long and now it's
coming out in certain ways in your body.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
And that's often what I'm working with with my clients.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
And it was something I had to work on because
I had a lot of shame and embarrassment because I
could no longer show up in front of my clients either.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I was a mess, I was crime. It didn't happen
in front of a climate.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
That happened in front of my director and my supervisor, thankfully,
very beautiful women who held that space for me, and
both have lived through it themselves.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
So thankful.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
But I didn't know that at the time, and it
took to the point that I couldn't see clients anymore
for me to break down and share that with them.
But anyway that it gets to that place, it's not
a unique story. It's a horrific thing to go through.
Horrific And if anyone and I know that will be
out there experiencing this internal dialogue of shame or embarrassment,
(13:39):
I know it's easy for me to say, now, you
have nothing to be embarrassed about. You have nothing to
feel shameful about. You are a human first, and humans
under chronic stress loads will break and that's not a failure.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That is biology. I always say this to my clients.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
We're not robots, we're human, but we're living in these
systems that forget our humanness.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I'm kind to everyone else. The dialogue in my own
head can be anything. But is that common in burnout
or is that common in a functioning people? Or is
that someone's that me an article the other day that
someone five to ten percent of the population have here nothing,
there's nothing in here, as in, they don't talk to themselves.
(14:24):
They's silence, and I'm like, oh God, that'd.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Be a they I don't know them.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
That was something I noticed early on in my career.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
It felt like every single person I'm working with here,
whether they have depression, PTSD, anxiety, whatever their diagnosis or
presentation or level of functioning, they have this dialogue of
absolute negativism towards themselves, judgment, evaluation, negative comparison. I call
(14:56):
it the not good enough story or the shame story.
I was like, wow, it didn't matter what the diagnosis was.
This was a common thread, such a common thread that
are really well known. Psychologist doctor Paul Gilbert uk Man,
he was noticing this in his career and he was
I think a psychologist back.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
In the seventies. I think he's early training, and he.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Was using cognitive behavioral therapy, standard practice still used, but
he was noticing this wasn't enough to help with these
people who had this really deep, horrible relationship with themselves.
He developed compassion focus therapy over the years, and now
it's quite readily used amongst practitioners psychologists still getting out
(15:40):
there like I utilize. I'm trained at a CFT practitioner,
and most people I see who are burnt out this
is part of their presentation as well. It's not exclusive
to burnout, but it's certainly a trend in a lot
of psychological conditions and a lot of high functioning people
who don't meet any diagnoses as well. And I don't
(16:02):
know the stats on this, but i'd put money on
it that it's worse in women than men because of
our different socialization in this world as women and as men.
I'm not saying that men wouldn't and they certainly do
suffer from this as well, and I've seen it in practice,
but I just feel it might skew more to the
women because of the different cultural social expectations around men
(16:26):
and women. I don't want to exclude because yeah, I've
worked with some quite highly self critical men.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
So do you think if I set up the podcast
and I was like, yeah, I'm just going to do
this because this is something I want to do. I
want to try and help my colleagues. And then in
my head, I was like, going, what makes you think
you can do that? You've never done a podcast before?
What makes anyone want to think they're going to listen
to you?
Speaker 1 (16:49):
What?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
And I'm like, why do I do this to myself?
And then I put my head in and started the pod.
Just took the step. But we're just so self critical
of trying anything new or why would anyone listen to us?
Or why do we think we're good? You know?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, I remember that coming out.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
One of my go to strategies and one I shared
with of course clients is not everyone's go to.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
But I journal.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
And when I decided to write my book about my
journey through burnout in order to take that step, Yeah,
I had a lot of self doubt, a lot of
critical coming up, and I decided a journal about it
and keep a record of it.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I still have it.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
And how nasty that voice was and how critical, like
who are you to talk about your stuff? You know,
like who's going to listen? And I wanted to put
that in the book. Actually I gave that to the editor,
but she was like, no, but maybe I might release that,
because whenever we're trying something new, that's often where the
critic comes are.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
It's I know mine's being there.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
You know, certainly along the way in my psychology career,
she's less so now because I've worked on the antidote
to self criticism, which is self compassion. I'm a very
big believer, not just because of the evidence and the research,
but because what I see in practice and what I
see in myself. It doesn't turn off the critic, but
it develops a different part of you that can stand
(18:12):
up and show up and support you like a best friend,
like a really good friend who's going to be that
fierce supporter next to you, or way like that. Yeah.
She also kicks you up your butt when you're doing
something wrong too, don't get me wrong. Yeah, but she's
not going to judge you. She's going to see the
human in you that's for you.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah. One of the questions we got was, and this
was from a couple of different people and they were nurses,
is how can we avoid burnout?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah? I liked this question.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
One of the things that first came to my mind
is language is important because it can shift how we
see something.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
And when I hear that word of void, it.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Already has like a bit of an anxiety or a
threat like burnouts, this bad thing that I can't have.
And let's not get this wrong. It is a horrible
thing to go through. And I'm not sugarcoating painting a.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Rose and picture.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
But when we see something as a threat, our physiology
is designed to avoid it, and that can actually be
detrimental because we can become hyper vigilant to the signs
of burnout. Now we want to be vigilant, but we
don't want to be hyper because remember how many things
are signs of burnout. If we're going good, I'm not sleeping, well,
(19:28):
oh I must be burnout or I'm feeling anxious. We
just but like I think, what can we do rather
than avoid burnout? How can I best support myself in
this world, in this industry and this and I say
world because burnout, as I was saying earlier, it's not
just an occupational phenomena. There's a lot of things that
are influencing our stress in the modern world we live in.
(19:52):
So how can I best take care of myself so
it doesn't get to there. The other thing I wanted
to mention is burnout is a systemic issue. It is
an individual issue as well, and it's the relationship between
the systems wherein our organization, our teams, our families, our
caregiving roles. You know, it's the system, but also how
(20:14):
you as an individual and what you're bringing to it.
And a lot of the systems we work in have
high demands on us and they do not have the
resources for us to meet those demands. And even though
I'm not a nurse and I certainly don't have firsthand
experience in living or knowing that industry from the inside out,
I hear that that is definitely a dynamic that's going
(20:36):
on in that industry.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So the reality is the reason I'm.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Mentioning that it's a systemic issue that demand resources is
how do you avoid burnout when you constantly show up
in a system that is designed to burn you out?
And that is not a fallow in your part, but
a failure on our system, and the system needs to change.
But in saying all that too, there are ways we
can scaffold and resource ourselves to operate in that system.
(21:04):
We can take agency over, but it doesn't mean that
we might not see some early signs of that chronic stress, like, Okay,
maybe I'm got a low level of burnout and I'm
needing to make some chefs or changes here, but I
wanted to in this discussion around avoiding burnout or taken
care of ourselves is one that language change, but too
(21:26):
if you're operating in systems that demand more of you
than the resources they can give you to help meet
those demands.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Now, I want to show up for work as a nurse, well, one.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Hundred percent that's what I like. And I've talked to
a few nurses.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I was just actually having conversation like she's been in
the nursing industry across two different countries.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
The demand verse resources is huge, but I think even
being able to acknowledge the gap and know that that's
not your responsibility or your thing to fix, can be
quite powerful and in and of itself, and being able
to focus on how do I resource me because even
though my industry is different, my industry is also severely
under resource. Mental health industry, Yeah, it's friends of crap.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
There's also some really wonderful things that and wonderful resources
we have, but there's major gaps, and I acknowledge that,
and I know that that's not my agency to fix
or where I want to put my energy orf fight,
but I can support this person. How do I show
up in this industry? It's important for me. I want
to still be here, But how do I show up?
(22:28):
And what can I do to help me continue to
show up in that? And that's where our power is.
Where you don't want to put energy in trying to
advocate for change in your industry, which is totally fine,
you don't have to. How can I resource me so
I don't burn out or I don't severely burn out
to the point of not being able to work again.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Interestingly, when I was recently in hospital, amazing nurses on
board and they took wonderful care of me, and I'm
very very grateful. But one of the girls came in
and she had already done a twelve hour shift, then
another eight hour shift on top of that because they
had no not enough staff, And then they asked her
(23:12):
if she would do the turnaround and come in for
an early shift the next morning, and I said to her,
I hope you said no, and she said, oh, I
did today. But sometimes there's just no stuff. So we
have to do what we have to do. And I
said yes, but if there was a medication era because
of fatigue, would you be supported. She said no, it'd
(23:33):
be my fault. And I said, yes, it would be
your fault that you did a wrong medication. But it
could occur because you're exhausted. You've just done a twenty
hour shift the day before, haven't had an eight hour break,
and you're expected to come back to work. And yes,
I know there's renumeration for that sort of thing, but
(23:56):
you know you can't do that in a mine because
it's a whole management.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Yeah, in my in law family, bunch of pilots in
that industry, and even the flight attendants because of the
safety issues, they're in charge, and not just the pilots,
but the whole crew. They're responsible for those three something occupants.
There is very strict rules and so there should be.
But this needs to be transferred to healthcare. So there
(24:22):
wouldn't be aligne manager or whoever asking this person to
stay back, because that shouldn't be happening.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
A person shouldn't. I know who's going to.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
See to these patients, but who's going to see to
this nurse who will end up leaving her career because
she's so exhausted, or maybe end up losing relationships as
a result. Like what's the cost and to the patients
as well, because there will be a cost to them too,
Like you said, you know, a wrong medication or something happens.
I know we don't have all the answers, but I
(24:53):
think this is where something came up as you were
sharing that to This is why self compassion and there's
a lot of research around this why it's such an
important component to develop and grow in ourselves because it
can help us set boundaries. It can help us say
no when a system is saying we need you, or
(25:14):
helps you say no and prioritize yourself when you know
there's a lot of patients who need you, but you
also need you, or your family needs you, or you
just you know or be able to let it go.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Leave the study And why aren't they employing more stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Easy said than done? But I remember one of the reasons.
Although I was really really sick, and I was starting
to realize I wasn't and I say sick, I was
burnt out. But I like using the word sick because
I was that generation that if you're not dead, you
show up to work. So I was lucky because of
my psychology training. I got used to taking mental health
sick days. But I still use the word sick to
(25:51):
really emphasize that it's okay. So when I was sick,
I just remember so starting to recognize that I wasn't okay.
I didn't have the language of burnout, because funny psychologists
didn't have the language of burnout back then in twenty twenty.
But I was just like, well, who's to see these clients.
I knew the industry already had wait less. I had
lots of long term clients are very used to me
(26:12):
and feeling safe with me, and I knew there wouldn't
be anyone else to see them.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
And we're heading into COVID. We're in COVID. I can
see forward.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
And I was long enough in the industry to know that, Okay,
the mental health crisis hasn't hit yet, but it's going
to hit.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I was like, this is.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Going to roll on.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
And I'm a bit more neurotic, so I see things.
Sometimes they don't happen, but I and so I was
already feeling that pressure. And I was just like well,
how can I put myself first?
Speaker 1 (26:38):
And back then, my compassion wasn't loud, and my self
compassion and certainly my other like having compassionate supporters wasn't
loud either because I wasn't sharing.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I wasn't talking out loud or getting support back then
beyond my supervision. But even then I wasn't talking out
to get that help or that compassion back like that
stopped me from stopping when I needed to or reducing
my clientele, at least before it got worse.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, if our leadership doesters, what should we do to
care for ourselves in that work environment?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Yeah, this is such an important question because I hear
time and time again clients who come to see me, Well,
I have gone to my leadership, I have expressed I
need XYZ to be able to do my job, or
we need.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
More people on our team, or something like.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
They've expressed that they're not doing okay, that they need
help and lending on death fears. This is where I've
talked to a few people more in the organizational psychology
area or have that real HR, but mental health and
being separate from the actual business HR. I've talked to
some really passionate people there who have turned into more
(27:45):
coaching sort of style of thing, and they were talking
about that, really needing to know and understand what kind
of rights or what's the policies and procedures to see
if there's.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Any avenues where if you can go higher up.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Or outside of your workplace, like Fair Work Australia because
we have psychosocial safety laws now. And I know this
is really hard ass when we're already worn out, but
knowing what your rights are inside or outside your industry
your organization is important. But more than anything, find your people, like,
don't do it alone. If your leadership's not supporting you.
(28:22):
Is there a trusted peer in your workplace or someone
in the industry but not on site, but they understand
your industry, A supervisor, a mentor maybe a senior, maybe
someone you went to UNI with. Build your people so
you don't feel alone, because I think that's one of
the worst things is we can feel quite isolated, but
there's bound to be someone else that's not being heard
(28:45):
that can be a really great scaffolding or resource. Maybe
it doesn't change, but what changes is your stressed out
system has a comrade, it has a peer, and that matters.
As humans, we can weather a lot of crappy systems
or challenges.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Like I think of.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Mothers groups like I've never had that lived experience, but
just vicarious.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
It depends on the mother's group.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
But I hear like you're in this new system, this
very vulnerable child infant, and you know, new role and
having other people who were living that too, there's something
powerful and magical about that. You may still be struggling
and stress, but it's different when you have those compassionate
(29:30):
others Like.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
I loved my mother's group. We were such a diverse
group and we could all and we could party, not
that we ever did when we had the kids. They
were my soul sisters when we were right in the
trenches with the kids, and as were my sisters and
my mum, and we all had each other's back, so
we all help each other out. It was wonderful.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
That made me think of my first job back after
because I stepped away due to my burnout from my career,
and I stepped into a teaching role for a while.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
A few months later, I took a.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Step back and didn't work for a bit and I
went part time, but it was a new position but
it didn't take long because I had some knowledge and
wisdom by then about the workplace factors impacting your mental
health that I learned that this place wasn't particularly a
great place for looking after yourself.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
And the direct leadership they were doing their best.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
They were accessible and willing, but the higher up from
them making the decisions, the pout beats didn't give to
It was about numbers on seats, you know, students in
They didn't care about the human.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Who was teaching their students, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Anyway, I decided to because I needed that job for
a while, I needed money in the bank. I decided
to create because I wasn't the only one. I was
starting to talk out in a few peers and establish
some connections, and.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
I decided to start a support group.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
And I spoke to my direct leadership, who supported that,
like there were certain things he had to keep a secret,
which really sucks, because this group was just about us
coming together and talking about the challenges of the position,
how best to support each other, just whatever we needed.
I mean, one session, one of the guys used to
be a barrister. He brought in his machine and we
sat around and had coffees but this is what the
(31:13):
group was about. It was an hour for us and
it was on work time and we got our work done.
I mean, geez, we all worked really hard. We did
have that leadership support. I mean he eventually retired after
I left, so that protective factors gone, but it certainly
wasn't If the leadership leadership.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Found out what that was about, they wouldn't have had
a bar of that. And I just wanted to stress
the I call that collective CAD.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Self care is important and that would be something else
I would encourage when leadership's not supporting you as come
back to yourself and look after yourself.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
But find your people. We need people. Just like you'll
find another mother who's struggling and will benefit from a
mother's group. There'll be someone in your els.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I also think people need to remember the power of
an incident report. Yeah, if there aren't enough staff and
people aren't being looked after, or if there's a fall
because there aren't enough people around, you need to fill
in an instant report because they have to be looked
at and they have to be dealt with and you
can't neglect them. They have to be signed off by leadership.
(32:21):
They have to go to workplace health and safety. There
is huge power in that, and you might be labeled
a problematic person or whatever. But instant reports protect you
but also protect your patients and your colleagues. Now I'm
not saying you write and instant report for you know,
(32:42):
someone farted the wrong way. You know that's being ridiculous.
But if there's not enough staff, if there's fatigue, if
you're really concerned about the safety of your patients, you
fill in an instant report and it's very powerful. It
may you know, nurses are renowned for making nurses lives hard.
(33:02):
Workplace health and safety is renound for, but it's there
for a reason, and once it's flagged and flagged on
numerous occasions, something has to be done about it.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, that's where knowing the psychosocial and look I'm no
workplace health and safety expert, but knowing and these days
psychosocial in it.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Not just the physical how of things that yeah, putting
in those incident reports around the things that you're noticing
are not safe there, but first equipping ourselves.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
With the knowledge around that.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
And that's where places are always like plugging, like Beyond
Blue has done a ton of work and it's all
free and accessible for workplaces and workers, individuals, everyone out
there on burnout and the factors workplace, those workplace factors
that are psychosocial hazards and Australia fur work.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Australia will have all that information.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah, and what are those incident reports because those things
should be in place now.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
I know we're still in that transitional phase, but this
is a learning experience and it's safety for everyone because
it trickles down to the patients, the public and to you.
You can become a patient. We don't want you to
become a patient. We don't want you.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
You know. Having been in hospital this year, it's hard
being on the other side and seeing things, whether it's
good or bad. It certainly opens your eyes to things
that are going on in healthcare, and I have to
be honest, it makes me really sad and it makes
me worry for the future of health care in this country.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
I will second that with the mental health side, but
in all the industries of the people that I've spoken to,
and most of it is healthcare. Yeah, if they don't
start to make the changes upstream, well we call it
upstream because the changes really need to happen culturally and
industry wise, organizational wise, and we're starting to make some chefs,
(34:54):
especially with the advent of psychosocial safety, but still a
ways to go.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Yeah, Okay, As a leader, how can we assist our
team to minimize burnout?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
One of the things that comes to me is lead
by example.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I know a lot of leaders out there are suffering
from burnout as well because they're under resource to meet
the demands of their job. So lead by example in
terms of you know, learning as an individual, living our
lives out there, how do I look after my mental health?
How do I take care of that? What factors, what
things are triggering my mental health declines or whatever. So
(35:36):
there's the lead by example aspect. But look, if you
know you're doing well, you're okay. Knowledge knowledge is power.
If you want to help prevent burnout in your workplace,
then understanding what burnout is. You don't have to be
a psychologist, don't have to be a coach, you don't
need to know this inside out. But there's so much
(35:56):
free knowledge out there it's very easy to I mean,
there's your podcast in our episode, like, there's so much
out there and just have a brief understanding about it.
But for leaders, I'd recommend understand what the workplace factors
are that contribute to burnout, like workload, What am I
expecting of my team to do? And is that realistic?
(36:19):
And you'll only know if it's realistic if you check
in with your team. Do my colleagues have autonomy over
their work or are they constantly told and controlled what
they can be?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Promot it?
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Things like clear communication.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
I mean, no one's perfect, We're not expecting perfection here,
but is there clear role descriptions and task descriptions and
I'm being clear on what's expected of them when I'm
communicating and also on the communication bit too.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
I don't think this is noted in.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
The literature, but certainly in my clinical experience that if
we're in a leadership role or any role where we're
dealing with humans, learning to be open to having difficult conversations,
which I'll put my hand up I found really hard
and really had to get training in that because, especially
around mental health, a lot of us haven't really had
(37:11):
the learning or exposure how to sit and have that
conversation when our colleague is reporting their struggling, So learning
how to there's a lot of free stuff, and you
don't have to be a counselor.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
I mean, just look at are you Okay?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Day?
Speaker 3 (37:25):
But they do a lot beyond the whole suicide prevention
and response. It's just about having these conversations. And again
you don't have to be a counselor. It's just having
a few scripts or things that you can go to.
So communication is something, and I think every leader they
have a right to receive professional development in order to
(37:47):
upskill in these areas because.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
The leader should be supported in being able to get that.
Or I think only employed leaders who have.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
What often get called the soft skills, but the very
important skills communication, but getting trained in these psychosocial safety aspects,
getting trained in mental first health, first aid, or so
they have some of this ability to be able to
have these conversations. I suppose in summary education, professional development
(38:20):
live by example.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Don't a lot of organizations have those EAP programs. Yeah?
I know. My husband and I went through a really
rough patch and he reached out to the EAP program
and he found them to be fantastic, and he will
talk about this sort of stuff with the guys, and
you gotta understand he's in mining like a trade like.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah, so that very masculine al you don't talk about
this stuff.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
It was interesting the other week he just said to me,
was you know, one of the people he was dealing
with was going through a really rough time and this
colleague of his was quite upset, and you know, Jason
him home. He said, mate, you're not safe to be here.
He gave him the number of the EAP and he said,
I'm here if you want to talk to me. But
I was so proud of him, as you know trade
(39:11):
and he's got a heart and goal, he's the most
gorgeous man. But the fact that he had enough insight
to what he had been through to know the value
of offering that to someone else.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
That lived experience.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Hey, my husband was in a leadership possession and working
in the airline industry at the time, and a lot
of his peers or the people he was managing were men,
most of them, but would come with these distraught and
he was able to, thankfully he's got quite good communication
skills and gave them space, sat them down, really encouraged that. Hey,
(39:47):
I think it's important that you go home today if
you've got someone to speak to and then also talking
about EAP, and he's been through some counseling himself as well,
not through EAP, but some exposure. But I think also
living with the psychics got some of that, and I've
been to the psychologist numbers of times over the years.
I think just sees that value at least vicariously and
(40:08):
through lived experience, and that was part of his leadership
role and what they did there as well. But he
did it very humanely, like he didn't just go here's
the EOP number. Gave them space even though he's got
a hectic days. You know, airlines like busy, busy, busy,
but you know, here's a destroyed colleague needs me just
to pause and be present and support them to the
(40:31):
next step. I don't have to be their counselor. But
what in my resources can I give them. I can
send them home check if they want me to call
their wife or their partner or a friend or family, or
give them the EAP number so they can connect with that.
But yeah, I think that just brings a really nice,
humane leadership communication that you can do. I think that
(40:55):
your example there with your husband and my example, that
is important.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
I think women are better at it. Men are. I
do agree with you. I think probably more women suffer
burnout than men typically.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
That's certainly what shows where if you're a woman, no
more at risk of burnout few men. But the interesting
thing though, but with male burnout, the trend tends to be,
at least in the research capture so far, tends to
be they experience more of the disconnection from works. They're
sort of not giving a crap anymore like, rather than
the emotional exhaustion. Women tend to have more of that. Again,
(41:33):
obviously there can be men that can have the opposite
and women that can have the opposite, but that it's
just interesting because men and women are treated differently in society.
We're raised differently, we're treated differently, so there's going to
be a difference in and we're in different industries as well,
like all can be, so that's.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Going to have impact different Do you think men distance
themselves more from their family when they come home as well?
They sort of internalize going to themselves. We're going to
have to wrap this up, however, there are somequestions, and
I do think once this goes live, we'll do another
round of questions because people can ask open ending questions
(42:14):
around mental health, around burnout, around SELK care. Guy. Guy's
the limit. Shannon's here for us, and she's very open
to coming on regularly and sharing her knowledge and let's
use it. So keep those questions coming. But thank you
so much for your time today. I feel like I've
(42:36):
sort of cut things off a little bit, but the
next lot of questions are actually probably a whole other podcast.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
So happy to come back and be my absolute pleasure.
And like you already said, I mean because there's things
even like especially nurses too, that we haven't talked to,
but like compassion, fatigue, vicarrious trauma, these are things that
I know about as re injury, moral injury as well.
I've moved more into the midlife woman's space. I'm a
(43:05):
midlife woman, but I'm on an expert in everything there,
but just the complexities of being a woman as well,
and our bodies are different, and especially when we grow
through midlife.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Anyway, open questions, fire the matter.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
One of the ones I really want to talk to
you about is empty nest syndrome, which people don't talk
about anymore, but oh my god, it impacted me horrendously. Yeah,
let's aim for something in like four to six weeks,
because by then I'll have a heap of questions. Will
organize another time. Thank you so much everyone for tuning in,
(43:40):
and also a big thank you to Nutritia again who
are sponsoring this podcast this season. I cannot tell how
blessed I feel to have them come on board. And
thank you. Shannon and I once again have learned so
much from you and I really appreciate the time you've
given us.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
My absolute pleasure back. Thank you,
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