March 16, 2025 • 37 mins
Today we chat with psychologist Shannon Swales about burnout.
We talk about Shannon’s own journey with burnout and through that, how she now specialises within this field of psychology.
Shannon delves in to what burnout is, and how we as nurses can care for ourselves and each other within the healthcare space.
This podcast is full of great information around burnout. What the signs are, tips and tricks around managing burnout and where we can go assistance.
I hope you get some valuable advice from this podcast. I know I did.
Bek x
Burnout Psychology Support
Burnout Recovery Coaching & Counselling | Shannon Swales, Psychologist
Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/tendernessnurses
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apologie Production.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi, my name's beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
to be, so I hit it and parked it for
Nelly four years. We always have free will, We always
get to choose.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
We are autonomous. Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tenderness for Nurses.
Today we have Shannon Swiles who was a psychologist. She
has her own business called Burnout Psychology Support, And due
to the overwhelming response to the question I put out
about what you guys wanted to hear about, which was burnout,
(00:49):
So I reached out to Shannon and asked her if
she'd mind coming on the podcast because that is her specialty,
and I wanted to make sure that when we talked
about burnout that we had some great tips ideas understanding
around burnout from a professional that deals with it on
a daily basis with her own clients. She has her
(01:11):
own podcast, What else do you do? Shannon? Oh God?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I also write I have a blog up on Psychology today. Well,
I write a lot about burnout, but also I wrote
a book that was basically my journals of my burnout story.
So I put that together in a book and that's
a Bible two. So writing is a big part.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Of what I do too. Okay, well, thank you so
much for taking time out of your very busy schedule.
I really appreciate you coming on to talk nursing burnout,
healthcare providers burnout. I'm probably going to focus on healthcare
providers nursing because overwhelmingly that is the people that listen
to my podcast. However, it seems to be growing and
(01:50):
we've got quite a lot of lay people for one
of a better term out listening and the stories that
we're sharing and the people we're sharing and they're really
getting some great information. Because, let's be honest, burnout is
across the board. You have your own story.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
But essentially my story hit a burnout hit its peak
twenty fifth of February twenty twenty one. I still remember
the day showed up to work and that was my
very last day as a clinical psychologist at the time
working in private practice full time. Probably had been doing
that for about eight years, post my huge amount of
training that you go through. Yeah, I was just completely
(02:26):
my always often say my body gave in. It did
the talking, and I had a couple of wonderful women
in One was my director at the practice I worked at,
and the other was my supervisor who basically just was
there when I came to that realization just took almost
like yeah, just there was the support to go, it's okay,
(02:49):
it's okay to leave and look after yourself. I think
without them I probably wouldn't have I would have kept pushing.
But yeah, my body was pretty much at it's lowess.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So yeah, can you explain that a little bit more.
You went to work, Yeah, and you fell in a heap.
You just felt sick, you didn't want to be there.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, there was the above all of it. I mean
there was a huge lead up. I mean I see
this with my clients as well. When you look back.
I lived in probably what you would call a high
functioning anxiety state and definitely constant stress state for a
long time, probably most of my life.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So there was that build up.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
There was also a lack of holidays. It was the
COVID year, that first year of COVID twenty twenty that
led up to my twenty twenty one, so I didn't
have my regular breaks, not that they ever completely restored
my equilibrium. But they were of course I think what
I often term a protective factor in keeping me somewhat buoyant.
(03:53):
So that was out of the picture. And of course,
as we know, and your nurses and other health practitioner
will know, how much pressure and I always felt the
weight of responsibility, even if it wasn't there yet. I
could seeing the kind of future and go oh, I
already saw that there was going to be a mental
health crisis, and like we already had full books. So
I was just feeling that pressure and not having that
(04:14):
reprieve of time away. So there was a lot of
I was waking up tired. I no amount of sleep
would restore. I was losing pleasure in things I once
found pleasure in. My motivation was low. I was irritable
just after my husband he says, you were snappy. He
knew something was up before I did. And I was
(04:36):
losing the care for my pain and for my clients,
which was one of the things that really made me go,
I need to do something, And I was trying to
do something. I was trying to step away from the
one on one therapy work and diversify into like group
work or something else to balance. But it all came
a little bit too late, and I wasn't getting a
(04:58):
lot of success trying to find that different way to work.
It's just a little bit too late that I actually
needed to step away not work with the level of
burnout I had. But those were some of the signs
and some of the things that looking back, especially the
we term it like a depersonalization, or I sometimes call
a disconnection where there was connection before to your clients
(05:22):
as you call them patients, or yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, what were the next steps you took ah therapy?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I I wrote myself off in times of Okay, you're
not going to work, and that was really hard because
work was my identity, My role was my identity. My
contribution to the world was my work. Yeah, that took
a lot to say no to the work, and I
even battled that as I was not working. So that
(05:50):
was the first step to not work at all. I
didn't know how long that was going to last, or
how long the money would last. To do that and
then take myself off to therapy, went to see my doctor,
got an appointment, got a mental health care plan as
we call it here Australia, and started to see a psychologist.
Those were the two things that's in my mind. I
need to not work. Although this is painful and I
(06:14):
need to I need help. I can't do this on
my own. I can't help myself. I can, but I
need help.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
How hard did you find that?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I actually find it. I've been in therapy before, so
I find again. I think it's that I can talk
to strangers easy. So it was telling my parents, it
was telling my husband. It was opening up to people
I have an emotional relationship with that I feared, even
though there's no grounds for it. I feared rejection. I
(06:44):
feared that they would think less of me. But with
a psychologist, well that's their job, and I had enough
experience with psychologists and good ones to feel comfortable going there.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Is the journey still ongoing.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I think the journey's ongoing, but it's more of the
journey of self connection and taking care of myself and
considering my needs, which you know weren't in the picture
before and was a contributor to my burnout. And I'm
not alone in that. A lot of people's burnout includes that.
I think that journey's just ongoing because you know, forty
(07:21):
years prior to my burnout, you know it's forty one
when I burnt out that I lived in a certain way,
and you know, I was a perfectionist. I was a
people pleaser, I was a self sacrificer. I was pretty
much all the things you can tick the boxes of
risk factors for burnout, and these are behavioral patterns and
they stem into your belief system and a lot of
(07:42):
it's unconscious. So I feel that works still ongoing. Like perfectionism.
No longer has I saved my clients, no longer has
the driver's seat, But it's not that she isn't in
there in the passenger seat.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, just whispering occasionally. You run your own business now,
so you pick your hours. Yes, I was pretty burnt
out twenty twenty one. Oh yeah, and a year of work.
There was a hot mess for a hot minute. Do
(08:15):
you find there is a particular group or profession that
tends to have a higher burnout rate than others?
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, I think both definitely. Professionally, it usually is the
professions that there's high a number of women in, so teachers, nurses,
any health professional particularly, Like there's a lot of research
that is done on nurses and burnout, which is great,
(08:43):
but yeah, health professional is definitely anyone who's client facing,
person facing, and not just any person vulnerable people also
nurses into ice workers, oh, caregivers, cares, non paid and
paid parent you know, like you're constantly with your kids
and women, we tend to be high numbers in these
(09:05):
kinds of jobs. And then you know, a percentage of
us go on to have kids and raise kids. I
chose not to. But it's you know, there's that you know,
they're vulnerable, they're dependent on you, they require you. It's
twenty four seven so and the research does back that
up too, that it's professions where you're client facing, they're vulnerable.
(09:26):
And there's also a lot of research and I've seen
it clinically too, where there's certain I say types of people,
but behavioral patterns and certain personalities that are more at rest,
like introverts and more at risk. We don't choose to
be introverts. I'm an introvert. People who are more conscientious
and neurotic are more at risk. Ask personalogy, It's like yeah,
(09:51):
and it's not, well, we were born when you were
born with our personalities, you know, and then you know
other things behavioral patterns. You know, I got into We
won't get into how that happened, but you know I
went through that in therapy. But perfectionism, you know, having
unrelenting standards self worth based on what I achieved, you know,
and our culture sets us up for that, you know,
(10:12):
especially as women. So we know there's a lot of
research around people with perfectionism beliefs and behavioral patterns are
more likely to burn out. Women. Just being a woman,
you're more at risk of burnout. Being a woman who
is married, you're more at risk of burnout.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (10:30):
And you're especially like our neurodivergence, more risk of burnout
as well. So if you're diagnose with autism or ADHD,
more at risk chronic film.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah this, Yeah, I just found I in my own business,
couldn't say no to anybody or that.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, they're not saying no. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
And I would go in early, does this one? Or
I'd stay back late to see someone, or I would
take that phone call, or I'd answer that Instagram message.
And I've got a great team around me now who
helped manage me with that. But it's a constant. I
constantly have to manage it because I will go out
(11:10):
of my way to people please. Yeah, and it's not
even easing the word people please, because I will stick
up for myself and that way I need to.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
But oh maybe it Well, you bring up a really
good because that behavior of not being able to say no,
there could be many drivers or a combination of It
could be a bit of people pleasing, but it could
also I've heard and seen and it wasn't for me,
but like they were really excited, you know, like that
project seemed really interesting. They really genuinely wanted. It was
(11:41):
more impulsive maybe like for them, you know, there was
more of an impulsivity, so there wasn't the slowing down
to consciously think. It was just like, oh that looks interesting,
I want to do it. So yeah, it wasn't driven
primarily by people pleasing for them, but this, well that
just sounds interesting and I don't want to miss out.
(12:02):
So the no behavior could be driven by many things
as probably not a simple answer as like people pleasing.
It was for me and my worth based on what
other people thought of me, So I people please to
get that hit of I feel good, even though I
wasn't consciously thinking that, but it made sense when I
could make that connection for me. You know that that's
(12:23):
what it was about. And as I mentioned earlier, my
identity was all about work and particularly not being a mother,
which again was by choice. But I put all my
eggs into the work basket. Then you know, I'm all
about my career because culture, again they either value a
woman as career or mother or both. And I was like, well,
(12:43):
I'm not a mother, so all I have to offer
is career. And again this wasn't conscious, but we know
that stuff like it's in a you know.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
What are the signs and let's focus on healthcare professionals.
What are the signs that you may be heading towards out?
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, I feel like drawing on here. There's a classification
of burnout that the World Health Organization adopts, which comes
from the research, and I think it really then gives
you others something to look out for. But I'll go
into symptoms as well, particularly for healthcare. But they talk
(13:22):
about and they adopt this researchers classification maslak and emotional exhaustion.
So this is a type of exhaustion that yeah, no matter,
sleep will help you feel great and rejuvenated. But some
of my clients or people will just say, like, it's
almost like a soul tired or mind body, and soul
(13:43):
is what I called it, tired, like we just yeah,
it's a different level of tide. But what they've noticed
is women particularly are more likely to experience that sign
of burnout emotional exhaustion than men. Men tend to And
this is another sign is that you might notice in
health professionals. This one can be big. Is like a
(14:04):
that disc I mentioned earlier, that depersonalization, Like you might
be saying to yourself, and I said this to myself,
I'm pretending to care today. I mean, of course I
showed up for my clients, but I wasn't connected. I
wasn't there like I used to be. You know, I
was playing a role. So you might notice you're separating
a bit. There might be some cynicism or negativism towards
(14:25):
your job that wasn't there before. You might notice that
you're snapping or irritable to maybe not at work because
you can hold it together there, but maybe at home
because that's where you just let those defenses down. But
you know, your stressed out body is just reactive. And
the other one is that you might notice not everyone
(14:45):
gets this one better sense of your self efficacy, your
belief in you, in your ability to do your job
might be lowered, or just a sense of achievement or
getting somewhere. I got that one. I just felt like
I'm getting nowhere.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
If you signed a question going to work, why you
like work? You're not feeling joy in anything. It is
feeling a bit flat. And you're in that mid forties
age group. If you're a female and presenting with these feelings.
Is it something that you do talk about. Is that hormones?
Hormones impact all of this, you know, maybe go get
(15:17):
some levels done with your GP, go see your gynecologists.
Is that something you do discuss with your patients.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, at some point, At some point, it depends what
the crisis point is. And most of the time, by
the time they see me, they're in crisis. It could
be that you know, I'm going to get a divorce
like or I'm going to divorce my husband. The relationships
in crisis, or their health is in crisis. They've had
a heart attack, they've been diagnosed with type two diabetes
because chronic stress does impact the body, or they're on
(15:49):
sickly from work because of the burnout so you know
it does come up at some point, Yes, about hormones
and chronic stress on body is going to affect your
with your mines. Yeah, it's going to affect so many things.
So having a doctor who has that very holistic understanding
and in women's health as well, and a doctor you
(16:11):
feel safe enough with, and if you don't have one,
start working on that because they can be your first
point a call. The great thing about a really great
GP is I sort of see them as the center
of the health, you know, and then they can refer
off to Okay, like if you don't have one already,
but a gynocologist or a naturopath or a psychologist or
they can organize that multi interdisciplinary, multidisciplinary approach to what's
(16:36):
showing up. Because burnout isn't I always say a bio psychosocial, spiritual.
It's not a classified medical condition but phenomena, and we
need to approach it in that way. Overhear psychologists. I
can work on the psychological part and a bit on
the social, but then we need the other professionals, Like
with biology, you might need a naturopath, you might need
the gynocologists, you might need definitely need your doctor I
(16:59):
think for the person who they want to go to.
I mean, definitely go to a GP first if you
have a GE or finding one. But hey, if you
decide to go explore the SIKE because you don't need
to referral from your GP, you can go straight to
a pych. Obviously, having mentalth care plan will certainly help
with cost of seeing a SICH. Go where you're ready
to go to. That's okay. Any starting point is a
(17:21):
starting point.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Funny, I fractured my back right at the end of
twenty twenty three and fractured my sacrum. The whole way through,
I was hot mess and it was the most painful thing.
And in the n I saw my GP, and I'm
seeing a Cairo An acupuncturist and I asked for a
(17:43):
mental health plan. And since I've been seeing those three,
I'm getting there. I'm feeling it's feeling much better. And
it sort of made me start to wonder, is the
back pain related to the brain to so, you know,
other things? Too much on your plate again, And it's
so easy as women that we're so used to Oh yeah,
(18:05):
I can do that, and I can do that, and
I'll be right, I'll do that and yes, I'll see
you know that extra patient or da da.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Da, they're pushing through.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I can do it. And then you know where I
was so diligent, I have found, you know, in the
last few months, and I'm starting to put more and
more and more on my plate. It's just by default,
it's just happening, being invited to the you know, you
have to be so mindful all the time and get
used to saying no. If you've ever been.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
In burnout, definitely, and if you're not in burnout yet,
but some of the early signs start getting used to
know now because you can prevent you know, the big
burnout and to the point that your body collapses on you.
And I mean it's serious stuff, burnout like you cutting
your vascular disease type two bees it. Burnout is a chronic.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
They've found that thyroid oh yep, a lot of the
autoimmune conditions are related to burnout or related to stress.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Well, I mean, when we're talking about burnout, burnout is
a chron stress phenomena. So it is. I was about
to say, just it's such a limiting word. It is
chronic stress. As we put a label burnout on it,
and at the moment burnout is like they say it's
occupational phenomena, that the chronic stressor is work related, but
(19:23):
they've opened that up more to where there's a load,
like a particularly a load, a responsibility load, So that
load can come from work, but it also can come
from home, it can come from within as well, the
loads we put on ourselves. But it's still considered a
work related chronic stressor. And it's the fact that it's
chronic because we're all built to be able to deal
(19:46):
with acute stress, yes, but chronic stress is we never
get a break. Our body never gets a chance to
rest and recover and to step out of that stress or.
And our bodies are still designed to need that, and
we need to create a lifestyle that allows for that. Unfortunately,
our culture really glamorizes I know that's not a word,
(20:09):
but it does. Yeah, let's just make that a word,
the hustle, the being everything. I mean as women, there's
what now the four am club or the three am club.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So you get up at five am and you do this,
and you do that, and then you run ten kilometers
and then you've read fifty pages of a book and
you do.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
This three am clubs.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
It's a five am plum, it's four am. It's freaking
ridiculous because no one long term, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Maintain getting up at that hour going to bed, that
like doing the amount of exos they're doing, right, Like
I called bullshit on it.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Really I reckon. We're both science, evidence based trained people,
but I would say pretty much nobody is designed to
be able to withstand that forever, you know, because what
I understand about the body and what I've learned about
the body physiology, it's not set up for that. It's
not we haven't evolved into being able to hold that
(21:09):
level of chronic on because even good things stressful for
the body. But just meaning our central nervous system is up,
you know, it's activated. You know we're on.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
It needs to be off. So what happens then? And
how do nurses and doctors deal with situations where they're
going to the emergency department all the time and so
for example it's at Logan or PA or the Royal
Marta and it just pumps all the time, so you're
(21:39):
on all the time, or you're a surgeon or a
registrar or someone and you have to be switched on.
And don't get me wrong, when I was a scrub
nurse and that you know, and work in the operating theaters,
I got to say I loved it. I loved being
on time. I loved the pressure of it. I loved
(21:59):
running on time, having everything organized, having that instrumentation ready
for that surgeon. But I didn't do a urgency surgeries.
I worked in a private hospital, you know, the only
time we did emergencies was when I went and worked
at the Royal Women's I think I spoke about it
in a previous podcast. It literally was see one, Do one,
Teach One. So I'd never done a caesar before I
(22:19):
went in. I saw them do one. I was the
scout nurse. I then had to do a caesar, and
I had enough experience as a theateris to be able
to cope with it. But no one told me the
amount of blood fluid, you know, like it was out
there that we lost that baby. That's why I was
going in and I was heavily pregnant. Oh God, And
(22:40):
then I had to teach the next person coming on
how to do a So literally it was see one,
do one, Teach one, which is such a nursing thing
to say back in the day, you know, see one,
do one, teach one.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
But that was an expectation, or is an expectation.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I think it probably still is an expectation. And so
I'm quite a I'm lucky. I'm a visual person. So
if you show me, I'm okay, it worked for me.
If I sat down and read it, I'd have to
read it ten times before it stuck. And I think
about that now. I couldn't go into a situation like
(23:17):
that now in theater, in that high stress. And it
makes me wonder how people cope long term in emergency.
Emergency is consultants, paramedics. I mean, I know there's a
huge burnout rate in paramedics, you know, but how do
those people unless they have that mindset of being able
(23:37):
to compartmentalize, how do you hope every day?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, I mean it's not a simple answer. But my
brain goes to the systems need to change. It's not
just an individual's responsibility to work on and work on
the things that they might be bringing in that is
contributing to their burnout. And that might be things like
the perfectionist mindset to the behavioral pattern. It might be
(24:01):
not being able to say no or taking on extra chefs,
you know, whatever they're bringing to the table, working on that.
But the system is also needing to take responsibility. You know,
there's already a lot of research around what they can
be doing and what could be helpful to prevent, if
not also respond, but ideally prevent. And it's really hard,
(24:21):
I think when we're looking at particular industries where those
answers aren't really simple to come by. I mean, you know, health,
you know there's so much need in the public right.
I know these aren't simple answers. But if we can
all get on board and understand that these are humans.
Nurses are human, doctors a human, You're all humans, and
(24:43):
you're inner body, and we're all different. We all have
our own DNA and mean DNA, I just mean our
way of working, our own personalities, our own learning ways.
And again, I know the system can't cater for everyone,
I know, but if we can all realize and systems
and people creating the systems or working on the systems,
(25:04):
is that's a human that you know, you're employing humans
and they're fallible, they're not perfect, they're not AI. I
always say that they're not like a machine that can
just keep going. What can we do to support and
again the research is like okay, like making sure supervision regularly,
making sure there's debriefing, and not just talk to it,
(25:27):
but actually create it, not just go. I think EAPs
are great, don't get me wrong, but how about create
I think one of the best things I had throughout
my early career was a network of psychs, like a
group peers support that I could go to and sit
down with. Unfortunately, we weren't at the stage of being
(25:48):
able to talk about and I have this now, but
where we can talk about the realities of our work,
how it was affecting us, and how we were feeling.
We're talking more about the cases and stuff, but I'm
talking about supervision where amongst peers, where you can talk
about the realities of your work, you can say, oh
my god, you know that. But workplaces mandating that.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
See, we're trying to bring clinical supervision into nursing. It's
not it's not mandate, no mental health, they're trying to
do that.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, we oh, it's mandated for us to attend clinical supervision.
But we're talking about now because clinical supervision is often
taken up by the cases and learning and professional development,
which great, that's what it's there for, and that's a
protective factor. But we need the kind of emotional support
because we are dealing with vulnerable human beings. You just
shared a horrific thing that you went through. That. Yeah,
(26:39):
support groups from your peers that you may choose not
to access, but it being there and accessible at some
point and not again. That might be some people's cup
of tea to go to an eap stranger and my
cup of tea, but they've seen a lot of value
in the research of those industries or workplaces that have
these kind of peers support and led by you know someone.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
I think really that's the key point. You know. I'm
on a few different groups. In groups on Facebook, I
find the really toxic, and you know, there's lots of
differing opinions and who should be alount and who shouldn't
be allowed. I think what you said is like a
group setting that's lad and I think needs to have
(27:23):
quite strict guidelines as well. Yeah, and I know the
people that set the face group mean well, but not
everyone that's on there is going to you know, and
you can't have an administrator if they're working as well.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
This is a side hustle, right, absolutely, same with some
of our Facebook groups too, the people administrating them, moderating them. Yeah,
it's a side hustle. It's a really important thing they're doing.
But those groups can end up becoming toxic and not
a safe restship future, because it needs to be a
sense of safety that you feel safe enough to be vulnerable,
(28:00):
because that's we need to be able to share what
we're feeling and share what's going on. And there's so
much benefit reported when you do that with a peer
who gets your job, because you don't have to share
the ins and outs, Whereas if you're getting that support
from your loved one or a psychologist, you might need
to explain a little bit more because they don't get
(28:21):
your industry. But if we have industry inside, peers support,
you know, and safe enough, and maybe that's led by
an outsider or a nurse who's trained in mental health
or something that you know they have the tools needed
to moderate a group whatever they need and provide a
safe enough space face to face online face faces often
(28:43):
you know a lot better, but online something too that
you can meet and I know these are big calls
but God, that would make a difference. I know it
makes a huge difference to my life now. Like I
had the clinical support, you know, because it was mandated,
but I now seek regular supervision where I just share
what I'm feeling.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Kathy Flanagan, who's one of the director of nurses Logan Hospital,
was one of the first people he interviewed, and she
was my mentor when I went through the operating theaters.
It's and Andrew's love it a pieces amazing nurse and
they have brought in different steps into the emergency department
down at Logan Hospital where they try and do a debrief.
(29:22):
There's been some and there are some pretty horrific things
that come into that ED, and they keep an eye
on who participates in the debrief or who removes themselves
or who you know they're They're looking at the body language,
that sort of thing to make sure that everyone's okay.
And when I say there's been some horrific things, there
(29:42):
have been some horrific things. I can imagine there and
all the EDS and you know, and it's probably getting worse,
but and I thought that was really great and insightful
that you know, someone was watching to make sure that
everyone was participating and you know, not necessarily having to
be heard, because some people will talk and something won't,
(30:05):
but the body language and taking part of that, you know,
group get together to talk debrief and she said, you
know it has it has been valuable.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's so important. Made me remember
a piece of research or understanding another protective factor that
organizations can do. I mean the debriefing, but also monitoring.
And it sounds a little bit horrible like monitoring, but
really having some procedures.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Sometimes people just want someone to say you okay.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Exactly privately, exactly like it might be this is just
not the forum for me. But if you pull me
up and here we go into a quiet room or whatever,
and people just want to be checked in. It's not
that they're expecting solutions from you or even you know,
managers and leaders in the health, you know, to be
the psychologist or to be the therapist. No, but like
(31:03):
often it's creating that space to be heard and it
might be then that next step here, hey, have you
thought about seeing your doctor or you know whatever stats,
but checking in monitoring, because there is a human in
that nursing. We often talk. There's a human in that
therapist's chair who is hearing a lot of stuff and
feeling a lot of stuff, who needs to be tended
(31:24):
to as well, And that shouldn't be all on that person.
We need other people. We need people to check in
on us. And it's not necessarily you know, I always
said to my husband, you don't have to be my therapist.
Sometimes I feel like, yeah, I know, but you know,
I just needed a lesson and a whole space for me
every now and again, you know, to check in on me,
especially in those stages.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
And that you've just hold space for someone. You know,
we talk about women and our emotions and our hormones
and all that sort of stuff. But I think sometimes,
you know, I have no doubt there are plenty of
men out there that have suffered burnout, but it just
presents in such a completely different way.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
They often more present that depersonalization, disconnection. They've become a
lot more cynical and negative. Is often again that is,
you know, not every man, but they research shows that
they tend to present that way. But yeah, and then
we think about our men who were once boys brought
(32:22):
up particularly I think about gen X because that's my generation.
But they were shamed for having emotions. You know, not
that I'm not in the game of blaming parents. They
did what they knew to help their kids. But we
grew a generation of men who weren't able to express
their feelings. And that's the very thing we need to survive.
(32:43):
Will survive, but thriving this world is to be able
to be with our emotions and being able to be
with other peoples and hold space for It's not a
problem to be solved emotions or really fantastic information about
our humanness. And if we're in the field of working
with vulnerable others and we're seeing a lot of things
(33:03):
emergency like, we gotta have.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Emotions, but you hope we do.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, I just yeah, emotions are so important and they're
key to hold space for and too, because that's just
us being human. It seems so simple, but it is
so hard to do because we're not taught to do that.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
But yeah, the number one thing I've taken from today
is a if someone approaches you or you are noticing
a colleagues bit off, you just ask the question, are
you okay? You show a bit of tenderness, are you okay?
Best thing for you to do is go, I'm here
if you need me.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, definitely, But I suppose where my mind just went
and my heart space is, And this is where it's
difficult a lot of us. It takes energy to hold
space for other people, even with saying that simple statement
or are you okay? I'm here for you, And often
we don't have that in us. It's not that we're
not capable, it's not that we don't have our hearts
and they go out to this person. We don't have
(33:58):
the bandwidth for the capacity because we're all running around
like chickens with the heads cut off, you know, like
we're all trying to keep up. And I'm not saying that,
I'm just acknowledging that if you know when you're hearing, yeah,
to check in on another person is okay if you
don't have it right now, yeah, Like, don't beat yourself
up for that. You're a human too, living in this world,
(34:22):
and if you don't have capacity, maybe it is that
you pass it on to someone else. Be aware of
your capacity, and it's okay if your capacity is zilch
right now and you can't be there if you're noticing
you don't have the bandwidth to be with somebody for
someone else. Maybe that's because you yourself are burnt out,
that you're suffering, so it's time for the oxygen mask
(34:43):
for you. Because once I ask, oxygen mask is there
and you're getting what you need, you'll be able to
have space for others, you know.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
That's what it.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
The biggest driver for me to get well was so
I could be there for others because I noticed and realized, well,
I can't anymore be there for other people, and I
now do it very differently. I'm there for others also
being there for me. It's like we both have our
oxygen masks on, Like you take care of you oxygen
masks and I've got an ox masks. But hey, sometimes
we come together and we share oxygen masks or you.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Know, Shannon, would you be interested in coming back on love?
I love to talk great. What we might do, guys
is why don't we put it out there for those
of you who are listening and have some questions around burnout?
How about you shoot them in DM me email me.
(35:35):
I'll put the email address on the show notes and
you can DM me either via Facebook with Tenderness Nurses
or the Instagram handle. And when we've got a few.
We'll get Shannon back and I'll go through the questions.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I love that and that way, anything that they're still
sitting with and want to ask. Yeah, I can be
here to answered.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I think it's a great idea. And because burnout, by
far and away has been the number one question we've
had on Tendinnus for nurses, because nurses are just leaving
in droves, the feeling exhausted, burnt out, tired, used, used, underpaid.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
I could keep going, really, I all the things that
I've learned that are risk factors for burnout from that
organizational system perspective and also individual but especially systemic.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Yeah, nurses tick the boxes. So I'm not surprised when
you reached out to me that burnout was your number one.
I'm like, and there's a lot more talk about it,
so I feel people might be more open to go, hey,
I need help, baby, Well I need answers on this.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah, no one seeing you and I have both lived
through it, and it is horrendous.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Like I was about to swear, one hundred percent horrendous.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
It's horrible. And I'll be back in touch with lots
of questions because I can tell you they'll be coming.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I'll be happy to answer it whenever I'm doing you
know things. Yeah, like just ask me questions rather than
be talking to you, ask me question.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Thanks O buying
Apologie Production.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi, my name's beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
to be, so I hit it and parked it for
Nelly four years. We always have free will, We always
get to choose.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
We are autonomous. Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tenderness for Nurses.
Today we have Shannon Swiles who was a psychologist. She
has her own business called Burnout Psychology Support, And due
to the overwhelming response to the question I put out
about what you guys wanted to hear about, which was burnout,
(00:49):
So I reached out to Shannon and asked her if
she'd mind coming on the podcast because that is her specialty,
and I wanted to make sure that when we talked
about burnout that we had some great tips ideas understanding
around burnout from a professional that deals with it on
a daily basis with her own clients. She has her
(01:11):
own podcast, What else do you do? Shannon? Oh God?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I also write I have a blog up on Psychology today. Well,
I write a lot about burnout, but also I wrote
a book that was basically my journals of my burnout story.
So I put that together in a book and that's
a Bible two. So writing is a big part.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Of what I do too. Okay, well, thank you so
much for taking time out of your very busy schedule.
I really appreciate you coming on to talk nursing burnout,
healthcare providers burnout. I'm probably going to focus on healthcare
providers nursing because overwhelmingly that is the people that listen
to my podcast. However, it seems to be growing and
(01:50):
we've got quite a lot of lay people for one
of a better term out listening and the stories that
we're sharing and the people we're sharing and they're really
getting some great information. Because, let's be honest, burnout is
across the board. You have your own story.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
But essentially my story hit a burnout hit its peak
twenty fifth of February twenty twenty one. I still remember
the day showed up to work and that was my
very last day as a clinical psychologist at the time
working in private practice full time. Probably had been doing
that for about eight years, post my huge amount of
training that you go through. Yeah, I was just completely
(02:26):
my always often say my body gave in. It did
the talking, and I had a couple of wonderful women
in One was my director at the practice I worked at,
and the other was my supervisor who basically just was
there when I came to that realization just took almost
like yeah, just there was the support to go, it's okay,
(02:49):
it's okay to leave and look after yourself. I think
without them I probably wouldn't have I would have kept pushing.
But yeah, my body was pretty much at it's lowess.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So yeah, can you explain that a little bit more.
You went to work, Yeah, and you fell in a heap.
You just felt sick, you didn't want to be there.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, there was the above all of it. I mean
there was a huge lead up. I mean I see
this with my clients as well. When you look back.
I lived in probably what you would call a high
functioning anxiety state and definitely constant stress state for a
long time, probably most of my life.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So there was that build up.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
There was also a lack of holidays. It was the
COVID year, that first year of COVID twenty twenty that
led up to my twenty twenty one, so I didn't
have my regular breaks, not that they ever completely restored
my equilibrium. But they were of course I think what
I often term a protective factor in keeping me somewhat buoyant.
(03:53):
So that was out of the picture. And of course,
as we know, and your nurses and other health practitioner
will know, how much pressure and I always felt the
weight of responsibility, even if it wasn't there yet. I
could seeing the kind of future and go oh, I
already saw that there was going to be a mental
health crisis, and like we already had full books. So
I was just feeling that pressure and not having that
(04:14):
reprieve of time away. So there was a lot of
I was waking up tired. I no amount of sleep
would restore. I was losing pleasure in things I once
found pleasure in. My motivation was low. I was irritable
just after my husband he says, you were snappy. He
knew something was up before I did. And I was
(04:36):
losing the care for my pain and for my clients,
which was one of the things that really made me go,
I need to do something, And I was trying to
do something. I was trying to step away from the
one on one therapy work and diversify into like group
work or something else to balance. But it all came
a little bit too late, and I wasn't getting a
(04:58):
lot of success trying to find that different way to work.
It's just a little bit too late that I actually
needed to step away not work with the level of
burnout I had. But those were some of the signs
and some of the things that looking back, especially the
we term it like a depersonalization, or I sometimes call
a disconnection where there was connection before to your clients
(05:22):
as you call them patients, or yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, what were the next steps you took ah therapy?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I I wrote myself off in times of Okay, you're
not going to work, and that was really hard because
work was my identity, My role was my identity. My
contribution to the world was my work. Yeah, that took
a lot to say no to the work, and I
even battled that as I was not working. So that
(05:50):
was the first step to not work at all. I
didn't know how long that was going to last, or
how long the money would last. To do that and
then take myself off to therapy, went to see my doctor,
got an appointment, got a mental health care plan as
we call it here Australia, and started to see a psychologist.
Those were the two things that's in my mind. I
need to not work. Although this is painful and I
(06:14):
need to I need help. I can't do this on
my own. I can't help myself. I can, but I
need help.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
How hard did you find that?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I actually find it. I've been in therapy before, so
I find again. I think it's that I can talk
to strangers easy. So it was telling my parents, it
was telling my husband. It was opening up to people
I have an emotional relationship with that I feared, even
though there's no grounds for it. I feared rejection. I
(06:44):
feared that they would think less of me. But with
a psychologist, well that's their job, and I had enough
experience with psychologists and good ones to feel comfortable going there.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Is the journey still ongoing.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I think the journey's ongoing, but it's more of the
journey of self connection and taking care of myself and
considering my needs, which you know weren't in the picture
before and was a contributor to my burnout. And I'm
not alone in that. A lot of people's burnout includes that.
I think that journey's just ongoing because you know, forty
(07:21):
years prior to my burnout, you know it's forty one
when I burnt out that I lived in a certain way,
and you know, I was a perfectionist. I was a
people pleaser, I was a self sacrificer. I was pretty
much all the things you can tick the boxes of
risk factors for burnout, and these are behavioral patterns and
they stem into your belief system and a lot of
(07:42):
it's unconscious. So I feel that works still ongoing. Like perfectionism.
No longer has I saved my clients, no longer has
the driver's seat, But it's not that she isn't in
there in the passenger seat.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, just whispering occasionally. You run your own business now,
so you pick your hours. Yes, I was pretty burnt
out twenty twenty one. Oh yeah, and a year of work.
There was a hot mess for a hot minute. Do
(08:15):
you find there is a particular group or profession that
tends to have a higher burnout rate than others?
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, I think both definitely. Professionally, it usually is the
professions that there's high a number of women in, so teachers, nurses,
any health professional particularly, Like there's a lot of research
that is done on nurses and burnout, which is great,
(08:43):
but yeah, health professional is definitely anyone who's client facing,
person facing, and not just any person vulnerable people also
nurses into ice workers, oh, caregivers, cares, non paid and
paid parent you know, like you're constantly with your kids
and women, we tend to be high numbers in these
(09:05):
kinds of jobs. And then you know, a percentage of
us go on to have kids and raise kids. I
chose not to. But it's you know, there's that you know,
they're vulnerable, they're dependent on you, they require you. It's
twenty four seven so and the research does back that
up too, that it's professions where you're client facing, they're vulnerable.
(09:26):
And there's also a lot of research and I've seen
it clinically too, where there's certain I say types of people,
but behavioral patterns and certain personalities that are more at rest,
like introverts and more at risk. We don't choose to
be introverts. I'm an introvert. People who are more conscientious
and neurotic are more at risk. Ask personalogy, It's like yeah,
(09:51):
and it's not, well, we were born when you were
born with our personalities, you know, and then you know
other things behavioral patterns. You know, I got into We
won't get into how that happened, but you know I
went through that in therapy. But perfectionism, you know, having
unrelenting standards self worth based on what I achieved, you know,
and our culture sets us up for that, you know,
(10:12):
especially as women. So we know there's a lot of
research around people with perfectionism beliefs and behavioral patterns are
more likely to burn out. Women. Just being a woman,
you're more at risk of burnout. Being a woman who
is married, you're more at risk of burnout.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (10:30):
And you're especially like our neurodivergence, more risk of burnout
as well. So if you're diagnose with autism or ADHD,
more at risk chronic film.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah this, Yeah, I just found I in my own business,
couldn't say no to anybody or that.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, they're not saying no. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
And I would go in early, does this one? Or
I'd stay back late to see someone, or I would
take that phone call, or I'd answer that Instagram message.
And I've got a great team around me now who
helped manage me with that. But it's a constant. I
constantly have to manage it because I will go out
(11:10):
of my way to people please. Yeah, and it's not
even easing the word people please, because I will stick
up for myself and that way I need to.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
But oh maybe it Well, you bring up a really
good because that behavior of not being able to say no,
there could be many drivers or a combination of It
could be a bit of people pleasing, but it could
also I've heard and seen and it wasn't for me,
but like they were really excited, you know, like that
project seemed really interesting. They really genuinely wanted. It was
(11:41):
more impulsive maybe like for them, you know, there was
more of an impulsivity, so there wasn't the slowing down
to consciously think. It was just like, oh that looks interesting,
I want to do it. So yeah, it wasn't driven
primarily by people pleasing for them, but this, well that
just sounds interesting and I don't want to miss out.
(12:02):
So the no behavior could be driven by many things
as probably not a simple answer as like people pleasing.
It was for me and my worth based on what
other people thought of me, So I people please to
get that hit of I feel good, even though I
wasn't consciously thinking that, but it made sense when I
could make that connection for me. You know that that's
(12:23):
what it was about. And as I mentioned earlier, my
identity was all about work and particularly not being a mother,
which again was by choice. But I put all my
eggs into the work basket. Then you know, I'm all
about my career because culture, again they either value a
woman as career or mother or both. And I was like, well,
(12:43):
I'm not a mother, so all I have to offer
is career. And again this wasn't conscious, but we know
that stuff like it's in a you know.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
What are the signs and let's focus on healthcare professionals.
What are the signs that you may be heading towards out?
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, I feel like drawing on here. There's a classification
of burnout that the World Health Organization adopts, which comes
from the research, and I think it really then gives
you others something to look out for. But I'll go
into symptoms as well, particularly for healthcare. But they talk
(13:22):
about and they adopt this researchers classification maslak and emotional exhaustion.
So this is a type of exhaustion that yeah, no matter,
sleep will help you feel great and rejuvenated. But some
of my clients or people will just say, like, it's
almost like a soul tired or mind body, and soul
(13:43):
is what I called it, tired, like we just yeah,
it's a different level of tide. But what they've noticed
is women particularly are more likely to experience that sign
of burnout emotional exhaustion than men. Men tend to And
this is another sign is that you might notice in
health professionals. This one can be big. Is like a
(14:04):
that disc I mentioned earlier, that depersonalization, Like you might
be saying to yourself, and I said this to myself,
I'm pretending to care today. I mean, of course I
showed up for my clients, but I wasn't connected. I
wasn't there like I used to be. You know, I
was playing a role. So you might notice you're separating
a bit. There might be some cynicism or negativism towards
(14:25):
your job that wasn't there before. You might notice that
you're snapping or irritable to maybe not at work because
you can hold it together there, but maybe at home
because that's where you just let those defenses down. But
you know, your stressed out body is just reactive. And
the other one is that you might notice not everyone
(14:45):
gets this one better sense of your self efficacy, your
belief in you, in your ability to do your job
might be lowered, or just a sense of achievement or
getting somewhere. I got that one. I just felt like
I'm getting nowhere.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
If you signed a question going to work, why you
like work? You're not feeling joy in anything. It is
feeling a bit flat. And you're in that mid forties
age group. If you're a female and presenting with these feelings.
Is it something that you do talk about. Is that hormones?
Hormones impact all of this, you know, maybe go get
(15:17):
some levels done with your GP, go see your gynecologists.
Is that something you do discuss with your patients.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, at some point, At some point, it depends what
the crisis point is. And most of the time, by
the time they see me, they're in crisis. It could
be that you know, I'm going to get a divorce
like or I'm going to divorce my husband. The relationships
in crisis, or their health is in crisis. They've had
a heart attack, they've been diagnosed with type two diabetes
because chronic stress does impact the body, or they're on
(15:49):
sickly from work because of the burnout so you know
it does come up at some point, Yes, about hormones
and chronic stress on body is going to affect your
with your mines. Yeah, it's going to affect so many things.
So having a doctor who has that very holistic understanding
and in women's health as well, and a doctor you
(16:11):
feel safe enough with, and if you don't have one,
start working on that because they can be your first
point a call. The great thing about a really great
GP is I sort of see them as the center
of the health, you know, and then they can refer
off to Okay, like if you don't have one already,
but a gynocologist or a naturopath or a psychologist or
they can organize that multi interdisciplinary, multidisciplinary approach to what's
(16:36):
showing up. Because burnout isn't I always say a bio psychosocial, spiritual.
It's not a classified medical condition but phenomena, and we
need to approach it in that way. Overhear psychologists. I
can work on the psychological part and a bit on
the social, but then we need the other professionals, Like
with biology, you might need a naturopath, you might need
the gynocologists, you might need definitely need your doctor I
(16:59):
think for the person who they want to go to.
I mean, definitely go to a GP first if you
have a GE or finding one. But hey, if you
decide to go explore the SIKE because you don't need
to referral from your GP, you can go straight to
a pych. Obviously, having mentalth care plan will certainly help
with cost of seeing a SICH. Go where you're ready
to go to. That's okay. Any starting point is a
(17:21):
starting point.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Funny, I fractured my back right at the end of
twenty twenty three and fractured my sacrum. The whole way through,
I was hot mess and it was the most painful thing.
And in the n I saw my GP, and I'm
seeing a Cairo An acupuncturist and I asked for a
(17:43):
mental health plan. And since I've been seeing those three,
I'm getting there. I'm feeling it's feeling much better. And
it sort of made me start to wonder, is the
back pain related to the brain to so, you know,
other things? Too much on your plate again, And it's
so easy as women that we're so used to Oh yeah,
(18:05):
I can do that, and I can do that, and
I'll be right, I'll do that and yes, I'll see
you know that extra patient or da da.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Da, they're pushing through.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I can do it. And then you know where I
was so diligent, I have found, you know, in the
last few months, and I'm starting to put more and
more and more on my plate. It's just by default,
it's just happening, being invited to the you know, you
have to be so mindful all the time and get
used to saying no. If you've ever been.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
In burnout, definitely, and if you're not in burnout yet,
but some of the early signs start getting used to
know now because you can prevent you know, the big
burnout and to the point that your body collapses on you.
And I mean it's serious stuff, burnout like you cutting
your vascular disease type two bees it. Burnout is a chronic.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
They've found that thyroid oh yep, a lot of the
autoimmune conditions are related to burnout or related to stress.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Well, I mean, when we're talking about burnout, burnout is
a chron stress phenomena. So it is. I was about
to say, just it's such a limiting word. It is
chronic stress. As we put a label burnout on it,
and at the moment burnout is like they say it's
occupational phenomena, that the chronic stressor is work related, but
(19:23):
they've opened that up more to where there's a load,
like a particularly a load, a responsibility load, So that
load can come from work, but it also can come
from home, it can come from within as well, the
loads we put on ourselves. But it's still considered a
work related chronic stressor. And it's the fact that it's
chronic because we're all built to be able to deal
(19:46):
with acute stress, yes, but chronic stress is we never
get a break. Our body never gets a chance to
rest and recover and to step out of that stress or.
And our bodies are still designed to need that, and
we need to create a lifestyle that allows for that. Unfortunately,
our culture really glamorizes I know that's not a word,
(20:09):
but it does. Yeah, let's just make that a word,
the hustle, the being everything. I mean as women, there's
what now the four am club or the three am club.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So you get up at five am and you do this,
and you do that, and then you run ten kilometers
and then you've read fifty pages of a book and
you do.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
This three am clubs.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
It's a five am plum, it's four am. It's freaking
ridiculous because no one long term, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Maintain getting up at that hour going to bed, that
like doing the amount of exos they're doing, right, Like
I called bullshit on it.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Really I reckon. We're both science, evidence based trained people,
but I would say pretty much nobody is designed to
be able to withstand that forever, you know, because what
I understand about the body and what I've learned about
the body physiology, it's not set up for that. It's
not we haven't evolved into being able to hold that
(21:09):
level of chronic on because even good things stressful for
the body. But just meaning our central nervous system is up,
you know, it's activated. You know we're on.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
It needs to be off. So what happens then? And
how do nurses and doctors deal with situations where they're
going to the emergency department all the time and so
for example it's at Logan or PA or the Royal
Marta and it just pumps all the time, so you're
(21:39):
on all the time, or you're a surgeon or a
registrar or someone and you have to be switched on.
And don't get me wrong, when I was a scrub
nurse and that you know, and work in the operating theaters,
I got to say I loved it. I loved being
on time. I loved the pressure of it. I loved
(21:59):
running on time, having everything organized, having that instrumentation ready
for that surgeon. But I didn't do a urgency surgeries.
I worked in a private hospital, you know, the only
time we did emergencies was when I went and worked
at the Royal Women's I think I spoke about it
in a previous podcast. It literally was see one, Do one,
Teach One. So I'd never done a caesar before I
(22:19):
went in. I saw them do one. I was the
scout nurse. I then had to do a caesar, and
I had enough experience as a theateris to be able
to cope with it. But no one told me the
amount of blood fluid, you know, like it was out
there that we lost that baby. That's why I was
going in and I was heavily pregnant. Oh God, And
(22:40):
then I had to teach the next person coming on
how to do a So literally it was see one,
do one, Teach one, which is such a nursing thing
to say back in the day, you know, see one,
do one, teach one.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
But that was an expectation, or is an expectation.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I think it probably still is an expectation. And so
I'm quite a I'm lucky. I'm a visual person. So
if you show me, I'm okay, it worked for me.
If I sat down and read it, I'd have to
read it ten times before it stuck. And I think
about that now. I couldn't go into a situation like
(23:17):
that now in theater, in that high stress. And it
makes me wonder how people cope long term in emergency.
Emergency is consultants, paramedics. I mean, I know there's a
huge burnout rate in paramedics, you know, but how do
those people unless they have that mindset of being able
(23:37):
to compartmentalize, how do you hope every day?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, I mean it's not a simple answer. But my
brain goes to the systems need to change. It's not
just an individual's responsibility to work on and work on
the things that they might be bringing in that is
contributing to their burnout. And that might be things like
the perfectionist mindset to the behavioral pattern. It might be
(24:01):
not being able to say no or taking on extra chefs,
you know, whatever they're bringing to the table, working on that.
But the system is also needing to take responsibility. You know,
there's already a lot of research around what they can
be doing and what could be helpful to prevent, if
not also respond, but ideally prevent. And it's really hard,
(24:21):
I think when we're looking at particular industries where those
answers aren't really simple to come by. I mean, you know, health,
you know there's so much need in the public right.
I know these aren't simple answers. But if we can
all get on board and understand that these are humans.
Nurses are human, doctors a human, You're all humans, and
(24:43):
you're inner body, and we're all different. We all have
our own DNA and mean DNA, I just mean our
way of working, our own personalities, our own learning ways.
And again, I know the system can't cater for everyone,
I know, but if we can all realize and systems
and people creating the systems or working on the systems,
(25:04):
is that's a human that you know, you're employing humans
and they're fallible, they're not perfect, they're not AI. I
always say that they're not like a machine that can
just keep going. What can we do to support and
again the research is like okay, like making sure supervision regularly,
making sure there's debriefing, and not just talk to it,
(25:27):
but actually create it, not just go. I think EAPs
are great, don't get me wrong, but how about create
I think one of the best things I had throughout
my early career was a network of psychs, like a
group peers support that I could go to and sit
down with. Unfortunately, we weren't at the stage of being
(25:48):
able to talk about and I have this now, but
where we can talk about the realities of our work,
how it was affecting us, and how we were feeling.
We're talking more about the cases and stuff, but I'm
talking about supervision where amongst peers, where you can talk
about the realities of your work, you can say, oh
my god, you know that. But workplaces mandating that.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
See, we're trying to bring clinical supervision into nursing. It's
not it's not mandate, no mental health, they're trying to
do that.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, we oh, it's mandated for us to attend clinical supervision.
But we're talking about now because clinical supervision is often
taken up by the cases and learning and professional development,
which great, that's what it's there for, and that's a
protective factor. But we need the kind of emotional support
because we are dealing with vulnerable human beings. You just
shared a horrific thing that you went through. That. Yeah,
(26:39):
support groups from your peers that you may choose not
to access, but it being there and accessible at some
point and not again. That might be some people's cup
of tea to go to an eap stranger and my
cup of tea, but they've seen a lot of value
in the research of those industries or workplaces that have
these kind of peers support and led by you know someone.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
I think really that's the key point. You know. I'm
on a few different groups. In groups on Facebook, I
find the really toxic, and you know, there's lots of
differing opinions and who should be alount and who shouldn't
be allowed. I think what you said is like a
group setting that's lad and I think needs to have
(27:23):
quite strict guidelines as well. Yeah, and I know the
people that set the face group mean well, but not
everyone that's on there is going to you know, and
you can't have an administrator if they're working as well.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
This is a side hustle, right, absolutely, same with some
of our Facebook groups too, the people administrating them, moderating them. Yeah,
it's a side hustle. It's a really important thing they're doing.
But those groups can end up becoming toxic and not
a safe restship future, because it needs to be a
sense of safety that you feel safe enough to be vulnerable,
(28:00):
because that's we need to be able to share what
we're feeling and share what's going on. And there's so
much benefit reported when you do that with a peer
who gets your job, because you don't have to share
the ins and outs, Whereas if you're getting that support
from your loved one or a psychologist, you might need
to explain a little bit more because they don't get
(28:21):
your industry. But if we have industry inside, peers support,
you know, and safe enough, and maybe that's led by
an outsider or a nurse who's trained in mental health
or something that you know they have the tools needed
to moderate a group whatever they need and provide a
safe enough space face to face online face faces often
(28:43):
you know a lot better, but online something too that
you can meet and I know these are big calls
but God, that would make a difference. I know it
makes a huge difference to my life now. Like I
had the clinical support, you know, because it was mandated,
but I now seek regular supervision where I just share
what I'm feeling.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Kathy Flanagan, who's one of the director of nurses Logan Hospital,
was one of the first people he interviewed, and she
was my mentor when I went through the operating theaters.
It's and Andrew's love it a pieces amazing nurse and
they have brought in different steps into the emergency department
down at Logan Hospital where they try and do a debrief.
(29:22):
There's been some and there are some pretty horrific things
that come into that ED, and they keep an eye
on who participates in the debrief or who removes themselves
or who you know they're They're looking at the body language,
that sort of thing to make sure that everyone's okay.
And when I say there's been some horrific things, there
(29:42):
have been some horrific things. I can imagine there and
all the EDS and you know, and it's probably getting worse,
but and I thought that was really great and insightful
that you know, someone was watching to make sure that
everyone was participating and you know, not necessarily having to
be heard, because some people will talk and something won't,
(30:05):
but the body language and taking part of that, you know,
group get together to talk debrief and she said, you
know it has it has been valuable.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's so important. Made me remember
a piece of research or understanding another protective factor that
organizations can do. I mean the debriefing, but also monitoring.
And it sounds a little bit horrible like monitoring, but
really having some procedures.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Sometimes people just want someone to say you okay.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Exactly privately, exactly like it might be this is just
not the forum for me. But if you pull me
up and here we go into a quiet room or whatever,
and people just want to be checked in. It's not
that they're expecting solutions from you or even you know,
managers and leaders in the health, you know, to be
the psychologist or to be the therapist. No, but like
(31:03):
often it's creating that space to be heard and it
might be then that next step here, hey, have you
thought about seeing your doctor or you know whatever stats,
but checking in monitoring, because there is a human in
that nursing. We often talk. There's a human in that
therapist's chair who is hearing a lot of stuff and
feeling a lot of stuff, who needs to be tended
(31:24):
to as well, And that shouldn't be all on that person.
We need other people. We need people to check in
on us. And it's not necessarily you know, I always
said to my husband, you don't have to be my therapist.
Sometimes I feel like, yeah, I know, but you know,
I just needed a lesson and a whole space for me
every now and again, you know, to check in on me,
especially in those stages.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
And that you've just hold space for someone. You know,
we talk about women and our emotions and our hormones
and all that sort of stuff. But I think sometimes,
you know, I have no doubt there are plenty of
men out there that have suffered burnout, but it just
presents in such a completely different way.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
They often more present that depersonalization, disconnection. They've become a
lot more cynical and negative. Is often again that is,
you know, not every man, but they research shows that
they tend to present that way. But yeah, and then
we think about our men who were once boys brought
(32:22):
up particularly I think about gen X because that's my generation.
But they were shamed for having emotions. You know, not
that I'm not in the game of blaming parents. They
did what they knew to help their kids. But we
grew a generation of men who weren't able to express
their feelings. And that's the very thing we need to survive.
(32:43):
Will survive, but thriving this world is to be able
to be with our emotions and being able to be
with other peoples and hold space for It's not a
problem to be solved emotions or really fantastic information about
our humanness. And if we're in the field of working
with vulnerable others and we're seeing a lot of things
(33:03):
emergency like, we gotta have.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Emotions, but you hope we do.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, I just yeah, emotions are so important and they're
key to hold space for and too, because that's just
us being human. It seems so simple, but it is
so hard to do because we're not taught to do that.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
But yeah, the number one thing I've taken from today
is a if someone approaches you or you are noticing
a colleagues bit off, you just ask the question, are
you okay? You show a bit of tenderness, are you okay?
Best thing for you to do is go, I'm here
if you need me.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, definitely, But I suppose where my mind just went
and my heart space is, And this is where it's
difficult a lot of us. It takes energy to hold
space for other people, even with saying that simple statement
or are you okay? I'm here for you, And often
we don't have that in us. It's not that we're
not capable, it's not that we don't have our hearts
and they go out to this person. We don't have
(33:58):
the bandwidth for the capacity because we're all running around
like chickens with the heads cut off, you know, like
we're all trying to keep up. And I'm not saying that,
I'm just acknowledging that if you know when you're hearing, yeah,
to check in on another person is okay if you
don't have it right now, yeah, Like, don't beat yourself
up for that. You're a human too, living in this world,
(34:22):
and if you don't have capacity, maybe it is that
you pass it on to someone else. Be aware of
your capacity, and it's okay if your capacity is zilch
right now and you can't be there if you're noticing
you don't have the bandwidth to be with somebody for
someone else. Maybe that's because you yourself are burnt out,
that you're suffering, so it's time for the oxygen mask
(34:43):
for you. Because once I ask, oxygen mask is there
and you're getting what you need, you'll be able to
have space for others, you know.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
That's what it.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
The biggest driver for me to get well was so
I could be there for others because I noticed and realized, well,
I can't anymore be there for other people, and I
now do it very differently. I'm there for others also
being there for me. It's like we both have our
oxygen masks on, Like you take care of you oxygen
masks and I've got an ox masks. But hey, sometimes
we come together and we share oxygen masks or you.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Know, Shannon, would you be interested in coming back on love?
I love to talk great. What we might do, guys
is why don't we put it out there for those
of you who are listening and have some questions around burnout?
How about you shoot them in DM me email me.
(35:35):
I'll put the email address on the show notes and
you can DM me either via Facebook with Tenderness Nurses
or the Instagram handle. And when we've got a few.
We'll get Shannon back and I'll go through the questions.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I love that and that way, anything that they're still
sitting with and want to ask. Yeah, I can be
here to answered.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I think it's a great idea. And because burnout, by
far and away has been the number one question we've
had on Tendinnus for nurses, because nurses are just leaving
in droves, the feeling exhausted, burnt out, tired, used, used, underpaid.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
I could keep going, really, I all the things that
I've learned that are risk factors for burnout from that
organizational system perspective and also individual but especially systemic.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Yeah, nurses tick the boxes. So I'm not surprised when
you reached out to me that burnout was your number one.
I'm like, and there's a lot more talk about it,
so I feel people might be more open to go, hey,
I need help, baby, Well I need answers on this.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah, no one seeing you and I have both lived
through it, and it is horrendous.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Like I was about to swear, one hundred percent horrendous.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
It's horrible. And I'll be back in touch with lots
of questions because I can tell you they'll be coming.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I'll be happy to answer it whenever I'm doing you
know things. Yeah, like just ask me questions rather than
be talking to you, ask me question.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Thanks O buying
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