January 26, 2025 • 39 mins
Full Circle was founded by Rebecca Cavallaro, a registered nurse, medicare-endorsed midwife and International Board Certified Lactation Consultant (IBCLC).
She has over 17 years of Australian and UK experience in clinical midwifery care, women’s health research, neonatal intensive care nursery and maternal fetal medicine. She specialises in gestational diabetes, pregnancy after loss, palliative pregnancies, neonatal complications, and breastfeeding trauma.
Bekki took time out from her busy schedule to discuss how she supports and guides her clients through this very special time in their lives.
We discuss Bekki’s own journey with complex feeding issues which she had with her own babies and my own experience with a baby who had complete food refusal from 3 weeks of age. We chat life, motherhood, being a working mum and how women need to embrace their inner intuition about their babies.
She is a mother of four. One of her beautiful bubbas is watching from heaven.
This is a beautiful chat with a very gifted midwife who only wants the best for her clients and their babies.
Bek xx
Full Circle Midwifery and Lactations Support.
www.fullcirclemls.com
Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/tendernessnurses
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apologie production.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi, my name's beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
to be, so I hit it and parked it for
Nelly four years.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
We always have free will, We always get to choose.
We are autonomous. Afternoon, everyone, Welcome to Tendinness for Nurses.
Today we have Becky Cavalaro with us who is a
regted nurse, registered midwife. She is a lactation consultant but
also a prescribing registered midwife. Becky runs her own business
(00:47):
around maternity and lactation consultancy and a few other bits
and bobs that we'll get into, and it's called Full
Circle Midwife. It's based here in Brisbane. So welcome Becky,
thank you, thank you for having me. Oh my absolute pleasure. Now,
how about you fill everyone in on you your journey
to be where you are today, because looking at what
(01:09):
you've achieved, there's a fabit of study that's gone into
your nursing Korea in midw free career.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Gosh, I don't even know where to start. I think
the journey started in primary school really, where I knew
from the get go that I wanted to be a midwife.
There was never another path. It was a genuine calling.
So everything I did from my Bachelor of nursing, because
(01:36):
direct entry midwif free wasn't available, everything I did career
wise was directed towards becoming midwife. I became a nurse first,
became a ni natal intensive care nurse to consolidate those skills.
I wanted really good foundations before I did my MIDW
free and because I was straight out of high school
(01:57):
at that stage for nursing, I couldn't do MIDW free directly.
And then went into MIDW three and I loved it
and wanted to have continuity of care and do the
full scope of practice. So I actually went on to
get my mid with free registration in the UK. Oh wow, okay, yeah,
(02:18):
which wasn't straightforward at all, but there was a different
caliber of midwife in the UK. Back in you know,
two thousand and six, early two thousands there to Australia,
and actually my Australian training didn't quite make the cut,
so I actually had to come back. I could either
(02:40):
redo my MIDW three in the UK or come back
to Australia.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So you came back and you did more, so you
did your masters here?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, So I finished my mid with free training, went
to the UK. I worked as an inatal intensive care
nurse and then came back to Australia to complete further
studies so I could get my UK midw free and
then worked in the UK as a midwife. But it
took me down a research path anyway. It's a long journey,
but basically midwife by heart and the path weanded to
(03:13):
research and natal intensive care, nursing and now lactation. So
lactation was where things evolved when I had children and
I was a full time continuity of care private practice midwife.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
What research did you do in the UK?
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I was the manager of the Women's Health Research Center
at Imperial College London. There was a site at Saint
Mary's and Queen Charlotte's in London and supported heaps and
heaps of different women's health studies. I guess the interesting
thing about how I ended up in research was more
of a personal story which I'm happy to share. I
(03:52):
had a car accident. I was hit by a car
and unable to physically work as a midwife for a while.
It brought me down that research path and yeah, I
absolutely loved it, So I very much have I guess
the mind, the curiosity for research. I think we really
need to contribute to the to the evidence we work from.
(04:15):
And yeah, my time in research in the UK was
just fascinating, really cool, diverse stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
So you're on the International Board of Certified Lactation Consultants. Yeah,
is there an Australian Lactation Group or that's who you
all belong to.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, it's an exam. There's a whole lot of criteria
to become an IBCLC International Board Certified Lactation Consultant and
there's an exam one hundred and seventy five questions, really
full on. But it's an international certification gold standard, highest
level for lactation. I guess education and support. But that's
(04:54):
there's no sort of governing body, that's just national.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
What did you have to do to become a prescribing
registered midwife?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Got the hoops? I've done through back?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
God, isn't it when you become an advanced practice.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, there's a lot I had to I think it
was at least five years experience in the full continuum
of pregnancy, anti natal intrapartum, so through birth and post
natal experience. I had to have evidence of that. I
had to do a prescriber's course. I had to submit
(05:28):
what was like I felt like my life to APRA.
I actually went into labor the next day after I
submitted that, so I'm sure that was a surprised. It
was pretty intense. Gosh, declarations or statements of service, all
the evidence. I think that's it. Gosh, I can't even remember.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Was that through a university to do that or was
it independent?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So the prescribing course was through Griffith University. Everything else
was through APRA.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I tell you what I doing my NPS, my masters
was one of the hardest things I have ever ever done.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, you know, I know a few nps and it
sounds hectic. It is so.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Hectic, And then you would have been exactly the same.
When we put out my application in to be an
endorsed Nurse practitioner. I'm not joking. It was novel, a novel, yeah,
and I had collected everything. Oh my god, it just
was And you know, I was really blessed. I was
accepted really quickly because I think I had so they
(06:36):
probably looked at it and went, oh my god, let's just tick,
She's got enough stuff. But it was a tome And
I know so many nurses now that have done their
masters and haven't been endorsed. Yeah. Wow, just because you
do your masters as a nurse practitioner doesn't mean you
become an endorsed nurse practitioner.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
It really was a gathering of evidence. Yeah, like right
through to submitting a philosophy of Midway three, you know.
And as much as it was time can assuming, I'm
sure you probably feel the same like it's so time consuming,
but it really helps. It really helped me reflect and
know the why behind what I do, why I do it,
(07:19):
where I was going. So yeah, it was great even
though it took heaps of energy.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It does, it really does. I had to as part
of my MPs because I was dermatology focused. I did
a couple of subjects with the Masters of Medicine Skin
Cancer course and it would have to have been the
hardest subject I've ever done in my life and we
had to pass by eighty percent, had to pass the
exam by eighty percent. It was stressful. I was the
(07:48):
only nurse in that cohort doing that sub or a
couple of those subjects. There were twenty five of us
that started. Seventeen of us passed, and I was really poopooed,
Like I was given a bit of a hard time
online because I was a nurse doing the course, but
I was one of the only ones that passed, and
(08:09):
probably passing that, I had far more satisfaction than with
anything else. And it was because, you know, climbed mountain
to get that, and you know, I had been there
was a bit of online bullying towards me being ans
and not being a doctor doing those courses, so it
felt pretty good, too good on you to pass that
(08:30):
at the level I passed it. So I do get
the you know, it's a lot of work, a lot
of hoops to jump through, and when you get to
the end, it is really worth it totally.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And you know, it's so beneficial to me now because
I wear two hats as a private practice midwife and
lactation consultant, and because I have the ability to give
Medicare rebates in the first six weeks as a post
natal console that also involves lactation, I'm cost effective, so
(09:05):
it's excellent for the women.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So with your Medicare rebate, how much is it like
it is for us withness practitioners as a consult like
the first one, it's forty plus minutes and we get
fifty seven dollars.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, it's short or long post natally and anti natally.
There's a different price for short and long. I think
long is over forty minutes. All my consults are hours,
and I think it's currently like seventy six okay, rebate
for the long, so it's good.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Do you do charge a gap?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Definitely? Yeah, Like I couldn't run a business just bolt build.
I have tried through COVID, I did, and thankfully the
rebates have actually gone up for women. But I do
set my prices with the rebate going back to the
women so comparable for lactation consultants without Medicare rebates because
there's no Medicare rebates for lactation consultancy at all, none,
(10:04):
which is crazy. But you know, there's lots of crazy
in the post natal world.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
There's lots of crazy in health period, and it is
getting it is getting crazier. I have to say, yeah,
particularly since COVID. And it's interesting you say that because
I did a lot of online consulting and it was
all bol Build because I had to shut my clinic
because it was you know, face to face as many dermatology.
So I just was able to you know, pivot and
(10:34):
you know everyone was having skin breakout, stress, that sort
of thing. So that was great. It's able to do vaccinations.
It was what like you and I only bolk build.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, it was crazy time.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
It was crazy times. Do you work in the hospital
at all now as a midwife, I don't, so full
time in your own business.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Oh I love hearing that. That's so awesome.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
And the majority of your work now is lactation consultancy.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, I do see women anti anti natally. Most to
the women who find me anti Natalie have a story
around lactation. They're planning a head so they'll basically debrief
like a birth debrief, like previous birth trauma, and then
we plan ahead and we journey together. I know it
sounds silly, but it's exactly what we do. And yeah,
(11:24):
most of the people see me most Natalie. So it
could be a real acute sort of urgent consult we
pretty much need an emergency department for breastfeeding, or it
could be someone who's you know, are not in an
urgent situation.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
How many of the women you see, do you think
have had some form of trauma with first Bobby.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I guess there's so many versions of trauma, But in
terms of their journey and finding their own voice as
a mum and knowing how to trust themselves, most would
have some version of a tough time. Maybe not trauma,
(12:10):
A lot of trauma a lot, but yeah, a lot
of tough times because of how they're treated in the system,
how they have to navigate. I call it an obstacle
course to get to the other side of just knowing
what they think and feel and their version of it
is really valid and almost always or I would go
as far as saying always right. They're always right.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
So they just didn't trust their art with that listened.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
To a lot of the time, a lot of the time.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
So why do you think that is.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I think we have a lot of subliminal messages around
self sacrificing as mothers. I think we don't even realize
that as women. I see it on such a basic
level where it's like a woman will come to me
with absolutely shredded nipples. She's in so much pain, but
(13:02):
she's gritting her teeth through it. She's she's doing it
for baby, and you know, good on her, amazing, but
also that or latch is going to affect her milk
supply eventually, and that's going to be a problem for baby.
Does that make sense? And if she knew that, that
would be a catalyst for her to care about her experience,
(13:26):
but she won't do it for herself. So getting the
women I see to care about their own experience, because
it inevitably ends up being important, is a massive part
of my job.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
How do you get the message out to women that
it's not normal to have nipples falling off your chest
when you're breastfeeding, or trust your guard if you think
there's something wrong with your baby, yeah, when Bobby's in utro,
or you know, it's okay to ask the questions or
get a second opinion, Like do we how do you
(14:03):
go about educating.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Women if I have an opportunity to see them antiinatally,
we'll do a lot of talking about that. Certainly, you know,
we will reflect on where they've been when they come
to me and say, there's been a lot of people
saying that looks like a good latch, and they're showing up,
you know, in a lot of pain trying to latch.
(14:26):
Then you know that is a conversation around why that
matters beyond it just being for baby, It actually is
important for her irrespective of her supply. How we get
that message out is we support them so they know
what's normal and that normal isn't meant to be. It's
(14:47):
not easy. No one would say motherhood, pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, parenting,
the whole shebang. It's not easy, but it shouldn't be
a self sacrificing journey. And I guess I'd really love
to say the women mothers partners valuing what the work
(15:11):
we do as mothers, because it is work. You know,
it's a lot of hard work that goes into raising
and providing and supporting and being present and doing the
things that are required biologically even for our children. But yeah,
(15:33):
having the space and the time and the value in
the support network around it, whether it's the system or
just the community, is essential.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Do you think social media has been a good or
bad thing for women's health in some aspects or for
breastfeeding or do you think.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
It puts.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Pressure on mothers. I know I've had many moms come
into the clinic, you know, in tears or going, oh
my god, you know this so and so's posted this
perfect lunch box on Instagram, you know, and you know,
put a little note in it and da da da. Now,
I know there were sometimes where my kids were lucky
(16:19):
to have lunch, or I just threw five bucks at
them as if for God say go get touch shop.
When I was working and starting a business and doing
you know, all that sort of thing, and there was
huge guilt around that, but there was no social media
at that stage, so I didn't have to compare myself
to anybody else. Yeah, do you think that impacts mothers? Now?
Did they talk about that?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think there's I think it's such a grief when
they feel they should breastfeed and they feel social pressure too,
and for whatever reason they can't. It's enormous and so
much unnecessary shame. I see some women navigate all of that.
(17:03):
I think social media is rble for it. World Breastfeeding Week.
Ask anyone who's ever had breastfeeding challenges how triggering that
week is. It's awful, but that's the world we live
in as well. You know, there's no one size fits all.
I think social media is just a bit toxic in
(17:23):
many ways, but hey, I'm on it and it's not
you know, we've just got to go go into that
just so carefully when we're vulnerable. But yeah, I think
the messaging around motherhood and the shoulds and all of
that really doesn't have good foundations of support. I think
some of the information that's on there is misinformation, totally, totally. Yeah, absolutely,
(17:46):
the Pinterest version of motherhood just doesn't exist. It's awful,
and I think, like I said, it's a bit of
an obstacle course, it really is. Some women, I'd say
they're almost set up to fail in the system because
there's just no continuity of care post natally. You know,
we kind of have this normalized system of continuity of
(18:08):
care through pregnancy and birth if women choose it, which
research would say it's gold standard, that's got all these
understood benefits. But post Natalie, you've got to six weeks
with someone that you trust, that knows your journey, and
then it's like good luck, and it's just begun.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Like, yeah, that's just because it's long.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
It's a long road ahead, and yeah, some of the
issues are just starting.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
So when I had my son at the marta easy
delivery two weeks in breastfed like a champion. Two weeks
in he stopped feeding. We had a month in hospital
the Marter Private Children's would he was nato gastrically fed.
(18:55):
Then they took the tube out and he started nuzzling,
so we got electation consultant in because I still had
milk at the stage. Nuzzled for a bit and then
stopped feeding again, so then was nose gastricly bed again.
And this sort of went on and off for twelve months.
The kid didn't sleep for three years. And when I
(19:17):
say that he didn't sleep, I'm actually I believe him.
I'm not exaggerating. He did not sleep. It was easy
for me to go to a night duty and it
was for him. I remember one morning I just was
at the end of my tether and I went down
to the Maternal and Child Health Center at win Them
even before it opened with this kid screaming and sat
on the doorstep far out crying like I was a mess.
(19:42):
I hadn't slept. I had a kid that just wouldn't eat,
didn't a drink. No one knew it was wrong with him.
The numerous tests, one stage they thought he had neurological problems.
They just no one knew it's a big deal. So
back then losek could just come onto the market. That's
all they could think. It was was this silent reflux.
(20:03):
It was really bad, but they they couldn't see it.
So I used to have to give my half a
tablet low second and liquefiret in water and squirted down
the back of his threat. It was horrendous and look,
that helped a bit, but not really, so I ended up.
I begged to go into Riverton and I said to her,
you gotta do something now, I'm a donkey on the edge.
(20:25):
And I was. I was a donkey on the edge,
and they put me in for a week. The first
twenty four hours I just slept and they looked after Jacob.
But even after a week there they could not get
that kid. They were able to get him to sleep
during the day, at least for a couple of hours.
So my whole day was around getting my two year
(20:47):
old to sleep or eighteen months to sleep at the
same time as Jacob, so I could lie down and
have a rest in the middle of the day. And
if that didn't happen, it was horrendous. But what was
interesting during that time, so many people going, well, you
doing this wrong, and you're doing that wrong, and you
(21:10):
just need to let him cry it out and you
just need to do this. And you know, it was
the most horrendous time. And I look back now and
there's no doubt in my mind I've probably had postnatal depression.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Who wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
He's the most beautiful, beautiful young man now. But I
tell you what, I could have thrown him in the
rubbish bin. And I think about all those women who
don't have support and who don't know where to turn.
And I mean, are there places like Riverton still.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, there's support, but that fact that's horrendous.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
It was horrendous.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
What changed did he get?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I had to feed him solids literally from three months
of age. We just started to introduce solids after he
stopped being nooser gastrictly fed. Yeah. Wow, And that in
itself was problematic, and that in itself paused huge comments
from people that just should have minded their own business.
(22:09):
But you know, I had to take medication to dry
my milk up. It was just awful.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
That's really full on.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
It was awful. And I think about other women, and
I just go, wow, you know, I had support.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, and look, it's to really diverse how complicated things
can get. That's refect, But yeah, I see a lot
of really complex cases and it's tough when you're you know,
babies are born to breastfeed, right, so if there's an
(22:46):
issue with that, it's like I like to put my
detective glasses on and be figuring out the why behind it,
you know, like your story, I'm just like, why, Jacob,
what was going on there? You know? But unfortunately we're
not all singing from the same hymn sheet. So you
can have support, but your caliber of understanding biological norms
(23:12):
and breastfeeding so you know, it is completely different from
health care provider to health care provider. So a pediatrician,
a midwi flactation consultant is going to all have completely
different lenses on a tricky case of diad, a mother
baby diad, And it's hard because it means you end
(23:34):
up with conflicting advice and it's just a mind field
for the poor mom that's trying to listen to her
intuition while just desperately do whatever for their baby. The
most vulnerable you'll ever be is then Oh my god, yes,
(23:55):
it's full on.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
It is so full on. And you know, the one
thing I remember from that is this is why I
say to people who are bored or don't know what
to do, go, do you go and volunteer some time
at a hospital or natal center or birthing center or somewhere.
Because there used to be this lovely man that used
to older gentlemen that used to come in and he
would sit with Jacob so I could go and have
(24:18):
a shower because Jason was working and he also had Chloe.
My parents were running a farm. Jason's parents were away
like everyone had stuff on, you know, and he used
to come in and sit with Jacob so I could
have a shower, go grab a coffee of five minutes
to myself, and then come back up. And he I
(24:39):
don't know what it was. He just would come in.
He just kept coming in and to this stay, I
couldn't even tell you his name, but his kindness has
stayed with me, and Jacob's what twenty four now, it
has stayed that gentlemen's actions have stayed with me. And
it was just, you know, he was just feeling his day.
(25:02):
But I used to look forward to him coming in
special and he always you know, he showed up, and
then when I was back in hospital, he came back again.
To this day, I very grateful to that gentleman.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, look, I think we kind of understand the power
of how we treat women in labor and that well
hopefully we understand that. Certainly midwives do. We know that.
You know now that there's been an inquiry in birth
trauma and women are reporting that it stays with them
(25:39):
and they, you know, are reporting how awfully it feels
when they're that vulnerable and not treated with respect and
left in the driver's seat post Natalie, Hey show up
for a vulnerable mum who's still you know, still birthing
to some degree, You're still you're still birthing yourself as
(26:02):
a mother. You're still you're still in it. You know.
It's like birth's the wedding day, but breastfeeding, all the
post need, all the first two years is the marriage.
It's a big deal how people treat moms and families
and that's phase. So yeah, like, I agree, I agree.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I I make a point now if I see a
mum that's a bit of a donkey on the edge
herself and a screaming child, and everyone's looking at them like, go,
oh gosh, I can I will go over now, and
because say, hey, do you need a hand?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I promise I'm not the creepy person, But do you
need a hand?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Absolutely, because they don't need someone to sit. We you know,
we're embarrassed as enough as it is, and we you know,
no people are judging us because Lord knows, there's no
tolerance anymore in our society. Totally, you know, they just
need to be of kindness and maybe just a little
help totally.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
And you know, it hasn't all been sunshine rainbows in
my own journey. I've had my I've had significant lactation challenges. Yeah.
So I you know, I feel like it's such a
privilege to be able to support women in journeys that
I have also been through, been on, And I really
(27:21):
get it. You know, it doesn't really matter how much
you know or how many books you read. Sometimes there's
just an experience that the cards you get dealt can
be tough, and how you get supported to deal with
the cards you dealt is the game changer.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
So did you have feeding issues with one or all of.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
You all of them, all of them and really different,
and really it's just interesting. I'd say, I'm still on
the journey of learning as as I go as a practitioner.
It's just such a rabbit hole oral function what shows
up in breastfeeding and how that is connected to suck
(28:04):
swallow bris than moral function, as.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
In, we're talking down the track down the speech, yes,
like that speech palette teeth and god, I'm not a dentist,
but like the influence of how functional and how well.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
A baby breastfeeds or uses their tongue, whether they breastfeed
or not is a big deal, is a really big deal.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Interesting. I well, I didn't know that, But now that
you say that, it actually makes complete con sense.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Like, yeah, and I didn't even know that. I didn't
know that. As a midwife early years as a lactation consultant,
I guess the goalposts were a healthy baby that's growing well.
You know, someone coming to me for lactation support, it's
like exclusively breastfeeding if that's what they want, A mum
that's comfortable, a baby that's growing well, and you know,
(28:58):
that's obviously great goals to have. But now I know more,
I can see more and do more. And it's actually
oral function, and it's such a great lens to see
things from because you know, mouth breathing and hear those
throat issues can show up via breastfeeding dysfunction because it's
(29:23):
oral dysfunction. Not that I know all the answers, but
I can certainly recognize when there's a problem better now
that I know it. But anyway, going back to my
own journeys, yeah, they're all very, very different. My son,
my nine year old, has a tongue tie that was
never treated and he grew beautifully, but you know, laid
(29:44):
down the track, different sort of issues around his mouth.
Do you wish you had a pad for him? I
do only but can you do it now? Yeah, totally.
We'll need to expand his palette first to fit the
tongue in his palette, but yeah, we can absolutely do that.
But the reason why I wish I did it is
(30:05):
not because like he's fine, there's no major issues going
on for him. It's that I worked really hard to
breastfeed him. I normalized the abnormal and self sacrificed.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Okay, so you're speaking from experience when you're talking very
much just you know, just got on with it, and
you know, we got there, but it was hard. And
how long did you feed him for?
Speaker 1 (30:32):
It was hard to win? Two and a half years? Yeah. Yeah.
And then my daughter, she breast refused at three four months.
We managed to somehow continue and then she continued breastfeeding
until she was like three, but there was lots of
(30:52):
gut issues there. She had cow's milk, protein intolerance, blood
and her who full blown refusal, like your milk is
poison kind of behavior, so full on, And I really
my heart goes out to every mother I've ever looked
after with breast refusal because I can just I know it.
I know, and it actually hurt soul of it so
(31:16):
much because it just really highlights the primal hormones behind
breastfeeding the whole and just that part of life. Like
you hear baby crying, you're just in your body is
telling you to do something and you're in battle with
your baby. It's just such a nervous system explosion.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
So did you develop anxiety? Did you feel yourself getting anxious?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I was absolutely anxious, but I helped, you know, I
held too much in. I think I've learned the hard
way that it's really important to seek support. I wasn't
very kind to myself. I did get support, but I
expected so much of yourself. Yeah, I thought I had friends,
(32:05):
well meaning friends say if anyone can figure it out,
it's you, which was a compliment but also just not
what I needed. I needed someone to say, you're a mom,
You're not a lactation consultant right now, like you need support. So,
(32:25):
you know, three am kind of phone call to a
friend saying, if my baby won't feed. Who was breastfeeding
at the time, You're my girl. I kind of knew
I was in deep water with the situation, but we
got there, and yeah, it was. It was just such
a lesson in so many things, but also a lesson
in like you can go through hard stuff and it's
(32:48):
a very dynamic journey. It doesn't last forever these incredibly
challenging times, whether it's breast refusal or not sleeping for
two years, which one hundred percent trumps are that's insane.
So yeah, that is my daughter, and then my youngest
(33:08):
is really my wild card. He has really given me
just like endless humble pie, and we're still on a journey.
He still breastfeeds. Actually he's healthy, well but has significant
allergies like he's anaphylactic to dairy Oh my goodness. Yeah,
(33:30):
and was just like covered an exma as a baby. Yeah,
just a really complex gut situation. He had a tongue tie.
I didn't treat it. He was growing beautifully. He had
that done it three and a half. So you know,
(33:51):
lots of lessons santis hereditary. Are they all familiaral Yeah,
so there is a level of genetics behind it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, And midwives can study to do tongue tie procedures.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
They can. There's not many that do, but it's generally
a pediatric dentist. It's one hundred specialty within a specialty.
Incredibly controversial topic. It is incredibly as we talk about.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I think we leave that one alone. Yeah, you know,
you pick your battles, even in podcasting, and you know what,
I don't want to go down that at all.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
But yeah, lots of eyes wide open in terms of
like to treat or not to treat. And there's no
perfect answer. And I've had my own journey with that
and very different experiences with each child. So same person,
different baby, and it's completely different journey.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Can I ask I suppose a bit of a controversial
question to you, did you ever consider just going, Okay,
this is all too hard, I'm going to bottle feed?
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a very memorable moment with
my sister who I was telling her how my daughter
was rest refusing and she could see it was like
time to talk about lines in the sand, and she said,
would you think about just expressing and bottle feeding her?
And at that point in time where I was, wasn't
(35:26):
an option. And I have learned from that like that
wasn't very nice to myself. It was really expecting so
much of myself to get through that. And I absolutely
take that into how I care for women that there
is no like sprint at things. We can tap out
(35:48):
and have a little bit of grayness to honor your
own journey and get through it. But yeah, I thought it,
but I didn't do it.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
And how did you respond to your sister in that moment?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I said, stop, Yeah, I wasn't. She knew, she was
just kind of she was worried about you. She was
very worried about me, and I don't think I received
help very well.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
So do you think that's a nursing and midwife thing?
I truly think it is.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
It's kind of sad to say it out loud, really,
because that's what I offer, you know, So it's like,
come on me.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah, I'm sorry when you said that, I'm just just like, yes,
I've said that to myself so many times.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah, come on, bickie, Yeah yeah, yeah, yes, I do
think it's a nurse midwife things. My favorite families will
look after healthcare professionals. We are.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
We beat ourselves up terribly.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
We have some really cruel expectations of ourselves and midwives.
My god, we're out of OSCO practice past six weeks. Like,
stop expecting to know everything about children. It's just really
important we put mum hats on.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I'd really love your advice on how mums and showed
some tenderness to themselves. You know, new mums, you're about
to have a baby, your post bubba and you know
you're trying to breastfeed. What is the number one thing
you tell your beautiful patients to come and see you
(37:20):
or mums that see you.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I like to tell them anti natally, you know, and
who knows their journey to get to that point. Sometimes
just to get pregnants. Yeah, full on. So there's all
of that, but they're usually sitting there fairly heavily pregnant,
wondering what lays ahead. And I will say, you know,
(37:43):
you're probably popping an eyelash right now. Babies growing a
tone out and we're not even thinking about it. You're
just doing it. And there's a miracle inside your body
and we're just taking that for granted. But then once
that person becomes two people and we have to support
that grow that baby on the app side, suddenly there's
(38:07):
this loss of trust often for their body being able
to do it. So I'd like to try and tell
them to imagine that it goes from there to here,
and it's just you know that they they're the source.
So if they can look after themselves and bring the
baby heart to heart and just take a few breaths,
they generally know what to do. But really just getting
(38:30):
a mom to understand, like they she grew it, she
made a human and it's incredible, absolutely, Like if that's
not enough, what is.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Oh wow, I've never that just gave me use because
it's so true, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:48):
We put so much else on it, and yet what
a miracle.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
We make humans. We can do anything.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
My God, I love that. Yeah, I couldn't agree with
you more. Thank you so much, my pleasure,
Apologie production.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi, my name's beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
to be, so I hit it and parked it for
Nelly four years.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
We always have free will, We always get to choose.
We are autonomous. Afternoon, everyone, Welcome to Tendinness for Nurses.
Today we have Becky Cavalaro with us who is a
regted nurse, registered midwife. She is a lactation consultant but
also a prescribing registered midwife. Becky runs her own business
(00:47):
around maternity and lactation consultancy and a few other bits
and bobs that we'll get into, and it's called Full
Circle Midwife. It's based here in Brisbane. So welcome Becky,
thank you, thank you for having me. Oh my absolute pleasure. Now,
how about you fill everyone in on you your journey
to be where you are today, because looking at what
(01:09):
you've achieved, there's a fabit of study that's gone into
your nursing Korea in midw free career.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Gosh, I don't even know where to start. I think
the journey started in primary school really, where I knew
from the get go that I wanted to be a midwife.
There was never another path. It was a genuine calling.
So everything I did from my Bachelor of nursing, because
(01:36):
direct entry midwif free wasn't available, everything I did career
wise was directed towards becoming midwife. I became a nurse first,
became a ni natal intensive care nurse to consolidate those skills.
I wanted really good foundations before I did my MIDW
free and because I was straight out of high school
(01:57):
at that stage for nursing, I couldn't do MIDW free directly.
And then went into MIDW three and I loved it
and wanted to have continuity of care and do the
full scope of practice. So I actually went on to
get my mid with free registration in the UK. Oh wow, okay, yeah,
(02:18):
which wasn't straightforward at all, but there was a different
caliber of midwife in the UK. Back in you know,
two thousand and six, early two thousands there to Australia,
and actually my Australian training didn't quite make the cut,
so I actually had to come back. I could either
(02:40):
redo my MIDW three in the UK or come back
to Australia.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So you came back and you did more, so you
did your masters here?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, So I finished my mid with free training, went
to the UK. I worked as an inatal intensive care
nurse and then came back to Australia to complete further
studies so I could get my UK midw free and
then worked in the UK as a midwife. But it
took me down a research path anyway. It's a long journey,
but basically midwife by heart and the path weanded to
(03:13):
research and natal intensive care, nursing and now lactation. So
lactation was where things evolved when I had children and
I was a full time continuity of care private practice midwife.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
What research did you do in the UK?
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I was the manager of the Women's Health Research Center
at Imperial College London. There was a site at Saint
Mary's and Queen Charlotte's in London and supported heaps and
heaps of different women's health studies. I guess the interesting
thing about how I ended up in research was more
of a personal story which I'm happy to share. I
(03:52):
had a car accident. I was hit by a car
and unable to physically work as a midwife for a while.
It brought me down that research path and yeah, I
absolutely loved it, So I very much have I guess
the mind, the curiosity for research. I think we really
need to contribute to the to the evidence we work from.
(04:15):
And yeah, my time in research in the UK was
just fascinating, really cool, diverse stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
So you're on the International Board of Certified Lactation Consultants. Yeah,
is there an Australian Lactation Group or that's who you
all belong to.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, it's an exam. There's a whole lot of criteria
to become an IBCLC International Board Certified Lactation Consultant and
there's an exam one hundred and seventy five questions, really
full on. But it's an international certification gold standard, highest
level for lactation. I guess education and support. But that's
(04:54):
there's no sort of governing body, that's just national.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
What did you have to do to become a prescribing
registered midwife?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Got the hoops? I've done through back?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
God, isn't it when you become an advanced practice.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, there's a lot I had to I think it
was at least five years experience in the full continuum
of pregnancy, anti natal intrapartum, so through birth and post
natal experience. I had to have evidence of that. I
had to do a prescriber's course. I had to submit
(05:28):
what was like I felt like my life to APRA.
I actually went into labor the next day after I
submitted that, so I'm sure that was a surprised. It
was pretty intense. Gosh, declarations or statements of service, all
the evidence. I think that's it. Gosh, I can't even remember.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Was that through a university to do that or was
it independent?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So the prescribing course was through Griffith University. Everything else
was through APRA.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I tell you what I doing my NPS, my masters
was one of the hardest things I have ever ever done.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, you know, I know a few nps and it
sounds hectic. It is so.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Hectic, And then you would have been exactly the same.
When we put out my application in to be an
endorsed Nurse practitioner. I'm not joking. It was novel, a novel, yeah,
and I had collected everything. Oh my god, it just
was And you know, I was really blessed. I was
accepted really quickly because I think I had so they
(06:36):
probably looked at it and went, oh my god, let's just tick,
She's got enough stuff. But it was a tome And
I know so many nurses now that have done their
masters and haven't been endorsed. Yeah. Wow, just because you
do your masters as a nurse practitioner doesn't mean you
become an endorsed nurse practitioner.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
It really was a gathering of evidence. Yeah, like right
through to submitting a philosophy of Midway three, you know.
And as much as it was time can assuming, I'm
sure you probably feel the same like it's so time consuming,
but it really helps. It really helped me reflect and
know the why behind what I do, why I do it,
(07:19):
where I was going. So yeah, it was great even
though it took heaps of energy.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It does, it really does. I had to as part
of my MPs because I was dermatology focused. I did
a couple of subjects with the Masters of Medicine Skin
Cancer course and it would have to have been the
hardest subject I've ever done in my life and we
had to pass by eighty percent, had to pass the
exam by eighty percent. It was stressful. I was the
(07:48):
only nurse in that cohort doing that sub or a
couple of those subjects. There were twenty five of us
that started. Seventeen of us passed, and I was really poopooed,
Like I was given a bit of a hard time
online because I was a nurse doing the course, but
I was one of the only ones that passed, and
(08:09):
probably passing that, I had far more satisfaction than with
anything else. And it was because, you know, climbed mountain
to get that, and you know, I had been there
was a bit of online bullying towards me being ans
and not being a doctor doing those courses, so it
felt pretty good, too good on you to pass that
(08:30):
at the level I passed it. So I do get
the you know, it's a lot of work, a lot
of hoops to jump through, and when you get to
the end, it is really worth it totally.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And you know, it's so beneficial to me now because
I wear two hats as a private practice midwife and
lactation consultant, and because I have the ability to give
Medicare rebates in the first six weeks as a post
natal console that also involves lactation, I'm cost effective, so
(09:05):
it's excellent for the women.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So with your Medicare rebate, how much is it like
it is for us withness practitioners as a consult like
the first one, it's forty plus minutes and we get
fifty seven dollars.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, it's short or long post natally and anti natally.
There's a different price for short and long. I think
long is over forty minutes. All my consults are hours,
and I think it's currently like seventy six okay, rebate
for the long, so it's good.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Do you do charge a gap?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Definitely? Yeah, Like I couldn't run a business just bolt build.
I have tried through COVID, I did, and thankfully the
rebates have actually gone up for women. But I do
set my prices with the rebate going back to the
women so comparable for lactation consultants without Medicare rebates because
there's no Medicare rebates for lactation consultancy at all, none,
(10:04):
which is crazy. But you know, there's lots of crazy
in the post natal world.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
There's lots of crazy in health period, and it is
getting it is getting crazier. I have to say, yeah,
particularly since COVID. And it's interesting you say that because
I did a lot of online consulting and it was
all bol Build because I had to shut my clinic
because it was you know, face to face as many dermatology.
So I just was able to you know, pivot and
(10:34):
you know everyone was having skin breakout, stress, that sort
of thing. So that was great. It's able to do vaccinations.
It was what like you and I only bolk build.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, it was crazy time.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
It was crazy times. Do you work in the hospital
at all now as a midwife, I don't, so full
time in your own business.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Oh I love hearing that. That's so awesome.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
And the majority of your work now is lactation consultancy.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, I do see women anti anti natally. Most to
the women who find me anti Natalie have a story
around lactation. They're planning a head so they'll basically debrief
like a birth debrief, like previous birth trauma, and then
we plan ahead and we journey together. I know it
sounds silly, but it's exactly what we do. And yeah,
(11:24):
most of the people see me most Natalie. So it
could be a real acute sort of urgent consult we
pretty much need an emergency department for breastfeeding, or it
could be someone who's you know, are not in an
urgent situation.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
How many of the women you see, do you think
have had some form of trauma with first Bobby.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I guess there's so many versions of trauma, But in
terms of their journey and finding their own voice as
a mum and knowing how to trust themselves, most would
have some version of a tough time. Maybe not trauma,
(12:10):
A lot of trauma a lot, but yeah, a lot
of tough times because of how they're treated in the system,
how they have to navigate. I call it an obstacle
course to get to the other side of just knowing
what they think and feel and their version of it
is really valid and almost always or I would go
as far as saying always right. They're always right.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
So they just didn't trust their art with that listened.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
To a lot of the time, a lot of the time.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
So why do you think that is.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I think we have a lot of subliminal messages around
self sacrificing as mothers. I think we don't even realize
that as women. I see it on such a basic
level where it's like a woman will come to me
with absolutely shredded nipples. She's in so much pain, but
(13:02):
she's gritting her teeth through it. She's she's doing it
for baby, and you know, good on her, amazing, but
also that or latch is going to affect her milk
supply eventually, and that's going to be a problem for baby.
Does that make sense? And if she knew that, that
would be a catalyst for her to care about her experience,
(13:26):
but she won't do it for herself. So getting the
women I see to care about their own experience, because
it inevitably ends up being important, is a massive part
of my job.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
How do you get the message out to women that
it's not normal to have nipples falling off your chest
when you're breastfeeding, or trust your guard if you think
there's something wrong with your baby, yeah, when Bobby's in utro,
or you know, it's okay to ask the questions or
get a second opinion, Like do we how do you
(14:03):
go about educating.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Women if I have an opportunity to see them antiinatally,
we'll do a lot of talking about that. Certainly, you know,
we will reflect on where they've been when they come
to me and say, there's been a lot of people
saying that looks like a good latch, and they're showing up,
you know, in a lot of pain trying to latch.
(14:26):
Then you know that is a conversation around why that
matters beyond it just being for baby, It actually is
important for her irrespective of her supply. How we get
that message out is we support them so they know
what's normal and that normal isn't meant to be. It's
(14:47):
not easy. No one would say motherhood, pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, parenting,
the whole shebang. It's not easy, but it shouldn't be
a self sacrificing journey. And I guess I'd really love
to say the women mothers partners valuing what the work
(15:11):
we do as mothers, because it is work. You know,
it's a lot of hard work that goes into raising
and providing and supporting and being present and doing the
things that are required biologically even for our children. But yeah,
(15:33):
having the space and the time and the value in
the support network around it, whether it's the system or
just the community, is essential.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Do you think social media has been a good or
bad thing for women's health in some aspects or for
breastfeeding or do you think.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
It puts.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Pressure on mothers. I know I've had many moms come
into the clinic, you know, in tears or going, oh
my god, you know this so and so's posted this
perfect lunch box on Instagram, you know, and you know,
put a little note in it and da da da. Now,
I know there were sometimes where my kids were lucky
(16:19):
to have lunch, or I just threw five bucks at
them as if for God say go get touch shop.
When I was working and starting a business and doing
you know, all that sort of thing, and there was
huge guilt around that, but there was no social media
at that stage, so I didn't have to compare myself
to anybody else. Yeah, do you think that impacts mothers? Now?
Did they talk about that?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think there's I think it's such a grief when
they feel they should breastfeed and they feel social pressure too,
and for whatever reason they can't. It's enormous and so
much unnecessary shame. I see some women navigate all of that.
(17:03):
I think social media is rble for it. World Breastfeeding Week.
Ask anyone who's ever had breastfeeding challenges how triggering that
week is. It's awful, but that's the world we live
in as well. You know, there's no one size fits all.
I think social media is just a bit toxic in
(17:23):
many ways, but hey, I'm on it and it's not
you know, we've just got to go go into that
just so carefully when we're vulnerable. But yeah, I think
the messaging around motherhood and the shoulds and all of
that really doesn't have good foundations of support. I think
some of the information that's on there is misinformation, totally, totally. Yeah, absolutely,
(17:46):
the Pinterest version of motherhood just doesn't exist. It's awful,
and I think, like I said, it's a bit of
an obstacle course, it really is. Some women, I'd say
they're almost set up to fail in the system because
there's just no continuity of care post natally. You know,
we kind of have this normalized system of continuity of
(18:08):
care through pregnancy and birth if women choose it, which
research would say it's gold standard, that's got all these
understood benefits. But post Natalie, you've got to six weeks
with someone that you trust, that knows your journey, and
then it's like good luck, and it's just begun.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Like, yeah, that's just because it's long.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
It's a long road ahead, and yeah, some of the
issues are just starting.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
So when I had my son at the marta easy
delivery two weeks in breastfed like a champion. Two weeks
in he stopped feeding. We had a month in hospital
the Marter Private Children's would he was nato gastrically fed.
(18:55):
Then they took the tube out and he started nuzzling,
so we got electation consultant in because I still had
milk at the stage. Nuzzled for a bit and then
stopped feeding again, so then was nose gastricly bed again.
And this sort of went on and off for twelve months.
The kid didn't sleep for three years. And when I
(19:17):
say that he didn't sleep, I'm actually I believe him.
I'm not exaggerating. He did not sleep. It was easy
for me to go to a night duty and it
was for him. I remember one morning I just was
at the end of my tether and I went down
to the Maternal and Child Health Center at win Them
even before it opened with this kid screaming and sat
on the doorstep far out crying like I was a mess.
(19:42):
I hadn't slept. I had a kid that just wouldn't eat,
didn't a drink. No one knew it was wrong with him.
The numerous tests, one stage they thought he had neurological problems.
They just no one knew it's a big deal. So
back then losek could just come onto the market. That's
all they could think. It was was this silent reflux.
(20:03):
It was really bad, but they they couldn't see it.
So I used to have to give my half a
tablet low second and liquefiret in water and squirted down
the back of his threat. It was horrendous and look,
that helped a bit, but not really, so I ended up.
I begged to go into Riverton and I said to her,
you gotta do something now, I'm a donkey on the edge.
(20:25):
And I was. I was a donkey on the edge,
and they put me in for a week. The first
twenty four hours I just slept and they looked after Jacob.
But even after a week there they could not get
that kid. They were able to get him to sleep
during the day, at least for a couple of hours.
So my whole day was around getting my two year
(20:47):
old to sleep or eighteen months to sleep at the
same time as Jacob, so I could lie down and
have a rest in the middle of the day. And
if that didn't happen, it was horrendous. But what was
interesting during that time, so many people going, well, you
doing this wrong, and you're doing that wrong, and you
(21:10):
just need to let him cry it out and you
just need to do this. And you know, it was
the most horrendous time. And I look back now and
there's no doubt in my mind I've probably had postnatal depression.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Who wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
He's the most beautiful, beautiful young man now. But I
tell you what, I could have thrown him in the
rubbish bin. And I think about all those women who
don't have support and who don't know where to turn.
And I mean, are there places like Riverton still.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, there's support, but that fact that's horrendous.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
It was horrendous.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
What changed did he get?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
I had to feed him solids literally from three months
of age. We just started to introduce solids after he
stopped being nooser gastrictly fed. Yeah. Wow, And that in
itself was problematic, and that in itself paused huge comments
from people that just should have minded their own business.
(22:09):
But you know, I had to take medication to dry
my milk up. It was just awful.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
That's really full on.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
It was awful. And I think about other women, and
I just go, wow, you know, I had support.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, and look, it's to really diverse how complicated things
can get. That's refect, But yeah, I see a lot
of really complex cases and it's tough when you're you know,
babies are born to breastfeed, right, so if there's an
(22:46):
issue with that, it's like I like to put my
detective glasses on and be figuring out the why behind it,
you know, like your story, I'm just like, why, Jacob,
what was going on there? You know? But unfortunately we're
not all singing from the same hymn sheet. So you
can have support, but your caliber of understanding biological norms
(23:12):
and breastfeeding so you know, it is completely different from
health care provider to health care provider. So a pediatrician,
a midwi flactation consultant is going to all have completely
different lenses on a tricky case of diad, a mother
baby diad, And it's hard because it means you end
(23:34):
up with conflicting advice and it's just a mind field
for the poor mom that's trying to listen to her
intuition while just desperately do whatever for their baby. The
most vulnerable you'll ever be is then Oh my god, yes,
(23:55):
it's full on.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
It is so full on. And you know, the one
thing I remember from that is this is why I
say to people who are bored or don't know what
to do, go, do you go and volunteer some time
at a hospital or natal center or birthing center or somewhere.
Because there used to be this lovely man that used
to older gentlemen that used to come in and he
would sit with Jacob so I could go and have
(24:18):
a shower because Jason was working and he also had Chloe.
My parents were running a farm. Jason's parents were away
like everyone had stuff on, you know, and he used
to come in and sit with Jacob so I could
have a shower, go grab a coffee of five minutes
to myself, and then come back up. And he I
(24:39):
don't know what it was. He just would come in.
He just kept coming in and to this stay, I
couldn't even tell you his name, but his kindness has
stayed with me, and Jacob's what twenty four now, it
has stayed that gentlemen's actions have stayed with me. And
it was just, you know, he was just feeling his day.
(25:02):
But I used to look forward to him coming in
special and he always you know, he showed up, and
then when I was back in hospital, he came back again.
To this day, I very grateful to that gentleman.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, look, I think we kind of understand the power
of how we treat women in labor and that well
hopefully we understand that. Certainly midwives do. We know that.
You know now that there's been an inquiry in birth
trauma and women are reporting that it stays with them
(25:39):
and they, you know, are reporting how awfully it feels
when they're that vulnerable and not treated with respect and
left in the driver's seat post Natalie, Hey show up
for a vulnerable mum who's still you know, still birthing
to some degree, You're still you're still birthing yourself as
(26:02):
a mother. You're still you're still in it. You know.
It's like birth's the wedding day, but breastfeeding, all the
post need, all the first two years is the marriage.
It's a big deal how people treat moms and families
and that's phase. So yeah, like, I agree, I agree.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I I make a point now if I see a
mum that's a bit of a donkey on the edge
herself and a screaming child, and everyone's looking at them like, go,
oh gosh, I can I will go over now, and
because say, hey, do you need a hand?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I promise I'm not the creepy person, But do you
need a hand?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Absolutely, because they don't need someone to sit. We you know,
we're embarrassed as enough as it is, and we you know,
no people are judging us because Lord knows, there's no
tolerance anymore in our society. Totally, you know, they just
need to be of kindness and maybe just a little
help totally.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
And you know, it hasn't all been sunshine rainbows in
my own journey. I've had my I've had significant lactation challenges. Yeah.
So I you know, I feel like it's such a
privilege to be able to support women in journeys that
I have also been through, been on, And I really
(27:21):
get it. You know, it doesn't really matter how much
you know or how many books you read. Sometimes there's
just an experience that the cards you get dealt can
be tough, and how you get supported to deal with
the cards you dealt is the game changer.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
So did you have feeding issues with one or all of.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
You all of them, all of them and really different,
and really it's just interesting. I'd say, I'm still on
the journey of learning as as I go as a practitioner.
It's just such a rabbit hole oral function what shows
up in breastfeeding and how that is connected to suck
(28:04):
swallow bris than moral function, as.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
In, we're talking down the track down the speech, yes,
like that speech palette teeth and god, I'm not a dentist,
but like the influence of how functional and how well.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
A baby breastfeeds or uses their tongue, whether they breastfeed
or not is a big deal, is a really big deal.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Interesting. I well, I didn't know that, But now that
you say that, it actually makes complete con sense.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Like, yeah, and I didn't even know that. I didn't
know that. As a midwife early years as a lactation consultant,
I guess the goalposts were a healthy baby that's growing well.
You know, someone coming to me for lactation support, it's
like exclusively breastfeeding if that's what they want, A mum
that's comfortable, a baby that's growing well, and you know,
(28:58):
that's obviously great goals to have. But now I know more,
I can see more and do more. And it's actually
oral function, and it's such a great lens to see
things from because you know, mouth breathing and hear those
throat issues can show up via breastfeeding dysfunction because it's
(29:23):
oral dysfunction. Not that I know all the answers, but
I can certainly recognize when there's a problem better now
that I know it. But anyway, going back to my
own journeys, yeah, they're all very, very different. My son,
my nine year old, has a tongue tie that was
never treated and he grew beautifully, but you know, laid
(29:44):
down the track, different sort of issues around his mouth.
Do you wish you had a pad for him? I
do only but can you do it now? Yeah, totally.
We'll need to expand his palette first to fit the
tongue in his palette, but yeah, we can absolutely do that.
But the reason why I wish I did it is
(30:05):
not because like he's fine, there's no major issues going
on for him. It's that I worked really hard to
breastfeed him. I normalized the abnormal and self sacrificed.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Okay, so you're speaking from experience when you're talking very
much just you know, just got on with it, and
you know, we got there, but it was hard. And
how long did you feed him for?
Speaker 1 (30:32):
It was hard to win? Two and a half years? Yeah. Yeah.
And then my daughter, she breast refused at three four months.
We managed to somehow continue and then she continued breastfeeding
until she was like three, but there was lots of
(30:52):
gut issues there. She had cow's milk, protein intolerance, blood
and her who full blown refusal, like your milk is
poison kind of behavior, so full on, And I really
my heart goes out to every mother I've ever looked
after with breast refusal because I can just I know it.
I know, and it actually hurt soul of it so
(31:16):
much because it just really highlights the primal hormones behind
breastfeeding the whole and just that part of life. Like
you hear baby crying, you're just in your body is
telling you to do something and you're in battle with
your baby. It's just such a nervous system explosion.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
So did you develop anxiety? Did you feel yourself getting anxious?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I was absolutely anxious, but I helped, you know, I
held too much in. I think I've learned the hard
way that it's really important to seek support. I wasn't
very kind to myself. I did get support, but I
expected so much of yourself. Yeah, I thought I had friends,
(32:05):
well meaning friends say if anyone can figure it out,
it's you, which was a compliment but also just not
what I needed. I needed someone to say, you're a mom,
You're not a lactation consultant right now, like you need support. So,
(32:25):
you know, three am kind of phone call to a
friend saying, if my baby won't feed. Who was breastfeeding
at the time, You're my girl. I kind of knew
I was in deep water with the situation, but we
got there, and yeah, it was. It was just such
a lesson in so many things, but also a lesson
in like you can go through hard stuff and it's
(32:48):
a very dynamic journey. It doesn't last forever these incredibly
challenging times, whether it's breast refusal or not sleeping for
two years, which one hundred percent trumps are that's insane.
So yeah, that is my daughter, and then my youngest
(33:08):
is really my wild card. He has really given me
just like endless humble pie, and we're still on a journey.
He still breastfeeds. Actually he's healthy, well but has significant
allergies like he's anaphylactic to dairy Oh my goodness. Yeah,
(33:30):
and was just like covered an exma as a baby. Yeah,
just a really complex gut situation. He had a tongue tie.
I didn't treat it. He was growing beautifully. He had
that done it three and a half. So you know,
(33:51):
lots of lessons santis hereditary. Are they all familiaral Yeah,
so there is a level of genetics behind it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, And midwives can study to do tongue tie procedures.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
They can. There's not many that do, but it's generally
a pediatric dentist. It's one hundred specialty within a specialty.
Incredibly controversial topic. It is incredibly as we talk about.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I think we leave that one alone. Yeah, you know,
you pick your battles, even in podcasting, and you know what,
I don't want to go down that at all.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
But yeah, lots of eyes wide open in terms of
like to treat or not to treat. And there's no
perfect answer. And I've had my own journey with that
and very different experiences with each child. So same person,
different baby, and it's completely different journey.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Can I ask I suppose a bit of a controversial
question to you, did you ever consider just going, Okay,
this is all too hard, I'm going to bottle feed?
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a very memorable moment with
my sister who I was telling her how my daughter
was rest refusing and she could see it was like
time to talk about lines in the sand, and she said,
would you think about just expressing and bottle feeding her?
And at that point in time where I was, wasn't
(35:26):
an option. And I have learned from that like that
wasn't very nice to myself. It was really expecting so
much of myself to get through that. And I absolutely
take that into how I care for women that there
is no like sprint at things. We can tap out
(35:48):
and have a little bit of grayness to honor your
own journey and get through it. But yeah, I thought it,
but I didn't do it.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
And how did you respond to your sister in that moment?
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I said, stop, Yeah, I wasn't. She knew, she was
just kind of she was worried about you. She was
very worried about me, and I don't think I received
help very well.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
So do you think that's a nursing and midwife thing?
I truly think it is.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
It's kind of sad to say it out loud, really,
because that's what I offer, you know, So it's like,
come on me.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah, I'm sorry when you said that, I'm just just like, yes,
I've said that to myself so many times.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yeah, come on, bickie, Yeah yeah, yeah, yes, I do
think it's a nurse midwife things. My favorite families will
look after healthcare professionals. We are.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
We beat ourselves up terribly.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
We have some really cruel expectations of ourselves and midwives.
My god, we're out of OSCO practice past six weeks. Like,
stop expecting to know everything about children. It's just really
important we put mum hats on.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I'd really love your advice on how mums and showed
some tenderness to themselves. You know, new mums, you're about
to have a baby, your post bubba and you know
you're trying to breastfeed. What is the number one thing
you tell your beautiful patients to come and see you
(37:20):
or mums that see you.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I like to tell them anti natally, you know, and
who knows their journey to get to that point. Sometimes
just to get pregnants. Yeah, full on. So there's all
of that, but they're usually sitting there fairly heavily pregnant,
wondering what lays ahead. And I will say, you know,
(37:43):
you're probably popping an eyelash right now. Babies growing a
tone out and we're not even thinking about it. You're
just doing it. And there's a miracle inside your body
and we're just taking that for granted. But then once
that person becomes two people and we have to support
that grow that baby on the app side, suddenly there's
(38:07):
this loss of trust often for their body being able
to do it. So I'd like to try and tell
them to imagine that it goes from there to here,
and it's just you know that they they're the source.
So if they can look after themselves and bring the
baby heart to heart and just take a few breaths,
they generally know what to do. But really just getting
(38:30):
a mom to understand, like they she grew it, she
made a human and it's incredible, absolutely, Like if that's
not enough, what is.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Oh wow, I've never that just gave me use because
it's so true, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:48):
We put so much else on it, and yet what
a miracle.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
We make humans. We can do anything.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
My God, I love that. Yeah, I couldn't agree with
you more. Thank you so much, my pleasure,
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