July 13, 2025 • 46 mins
Today on the podcast we chat with the delightful Dr Kyla Smith.
Dr Kyla is a paediatric dietitian and feeding specialist. She’s a mother of two children, has a PhD in childhood weight management and has worked with thousands of families in her online programs.
Dr Kyla is passionate about developing balanced relationships with food, and fostering positive mealtime experiences for the whole family.
We chat about how nurses and other health professionals can assist families who have fussy eaters. Dr Kyla has sensible, wonderful advice for us all to follow when dealing with our own kids who are fussy with food, but also how to handle children in hospitals who are fussy with their food.
You can read more about her work at www.mealtimes.com.au
www.nutricia.com
www.tendernessfornurses.com.au
Sponsored by Nutricia. This episode was created independently by the presenters/speakers and the views expressed herein are those of the presenters/speakers, not of Nutricia. This content is intended for healthcare professionals. Medical professionals should rely on their own skill and assessment of individual patients.
Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/tendernessnurses
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appodjay Production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tenantus for Nurses.
I suspec Woodbine here this season. I am so excited
to announce that the podcast is being supported by Nutritia,
which is a global leader in medical nutrition. They understand
the needs of nurses in the nutrition space and for
over one hundred and twenty five years have provided products
(00:31):
to support child health. Some of Nutrita's pediatric brands include
Neo Kate Junior for children who have food allergies and
app to Grow for those fussy eaters. And those of
us who have children know many kids who go through
the phases of definite fussiness. For more information and resources,
visit the Nutrita Pediatrics Hub at nutritia dot com dot
(00:54):
au forward slash Pediatrics. I just want to say a
huge thank you to Nutritia. Their desire to support nurses
is truly appreciated, and they are allowing me to continue
this podcast so that we can all grow as nurses.
This season, we have some amazing speakers in the pediatric
space which I cannot wait to share with you all. Hi,
(01:14):
my name's Beck Woodbine, and welcome to Tenderness for nurses.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity to.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Be, so I hit it and parked it for Nellie
four years. We always have free will, We always get
to choose.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
We are autonomous.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into tenderness for nurses.
Today we have the amazing doctor Kyler Smith, who is
a specialist around fussy eaters and has done her PhD
in managing and preventing fussy eaters. She's a pediatric dietitian.
And we've just had a few issues with our computer.
(01:55):
But I did ask you.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
You have your own two children. Was one of them
a fussy eater?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
I think both of them are typically fussy. I was
talking about my oldest so in particular, who is seven.
But she is a more sensitive, more cautious, more observant kid,
one who is much slower to warm to new things,
who takes a world of trust, And when she was
particularly in her toddler face, deep in that kind of
(02:25):
beij food stage, I was just so thankful that I
have spent the last twenty years doing what I have
been doing, because I think she probably would have been
a kid who ended up in my clinic if I'd
been given some poor advice along the way, and I'd
been stressing and you know, really pressuring her to eat,
and I could see in the future for us that
(02:46):
there was that potential to really battle around food. And
I'm just so lucky that I know all the things
I know that I could actually really lower my expectations
for her, could really set her up to learn about
food without kind of feeling this real need to get
something into her, which is I think, you know a
challenge for so many families, so many health professional parents
(03:07):
as well.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Do you know, like we sometimes know so.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Much that there's extra pressure on us to get things
into our kids.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
So I have yes, firsthand experience.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
She is still a more cautious eater, probably always will
be quite similar to myself. But we're on a long
term pathway, and that is something like I'm really passionate
about talking about.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
There's so many things that you've brought up there that
makes me. Initially you said that she is a little
bit introverted quite a child. Do you find children of
that nature tend to be fussier readers, Not so much.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
The introvert part of it, but definitely that cautious, sensitive
like she's a kid who can come into a room
and be like, have you been.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Cooking with lemon? Yes?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
I am. So nothing gets past her And absolutely not
a kid that I can just sneak food into because
she's like mate, I can see that a mile off.
Absolutely not, but also just less trusting, Like I think
about her as a kid, and I definitely see this
in my clinic, Like if we went to somebody neew,
you know, to their house. She doesn't just waltz into
(04:15):
the playroom and you know, check out their toys. She's
behind my leg, looking around, taking ages to decide that
she feels comfortable to do something. And that kind of
personality absolutely applies to eating. You know, you think about
learning about or tasting a new food. There is so
much that our body is taking in information wise. We're
(04:37):
learning about what it looks like, what it smells like,
what it feels like in our hands, what it feels
like on our tongue, what happens when you bite into it?
You know, is there juicy parts that come out? Is
it crunchy and noisy? Is it crispy?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
What is it? And so for kids who are slower
to warm to things.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
They have that personality type of really needing to observe
before they get involved. Then learning to like new foods
can be a really tricky experience for them if there's
more pressure on them as well. Like and I learn
this with my own child that if I try and
force her into somebody's play room, or you try and
make her to make friends with somebody, she is unlikely
(05:13):
to even leave my side that entire time. I really
have to prep her and be there in that space
with her. And that's a really hard thing to do
with food, because you're feeding a child so many times
a day. It's exhausting to invest in taking it slowly
and building up to things. And so I really empathize
with families who do have typically fussy kind of kids.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
It's a real challenge.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
It's an interesting thing even as adults.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
You'll often hear adults go, oh, I don't like that
because of the sensation in my mouth. There are some
puddings or even some fruits I've had over in Asia,
even walking past a restaurant, the smell of it, there's
no way I could put that in my mouth. But
they say, if you can get past that, it is
the most amazing thing. You've ever tasted it, Well, I'll
(06:00):
never get past that because my sense of smell is
so strong. But then you talk to adults about, you know, oysters,
and it's quite visceral the response people have. So if
that's us as adults, imagine it as a child, they
can't moderate all their emotions, can they?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
One dred percent.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
We're talking about adults with a developed prefrontal cortex who
are saying, look, I'm going to actually excuse myself from
this meal. I don't feel comfortable eating that thing. If
you look at our kids, if you smell something that
just takes over your whole body as a three year old,
like I'm screaming, I'm crying, I'm throwing myself on the floor,
I'm flipping that plate. There is no way that is
coming near me, especially inside my mouth. And we think
(06:42):
about where all those kind of nerve endings are, where
all those taste buds are, Like that is just a
huge experience to work through. And I think that's such
a great point. Though it's not that our kids just won't,
it's that for so many of them, they can't. It's
too big a jump to go straight to trying something
to eating something. There is so much learning that has
(07:02):
to happen from a sensory point of view, from a
trust point of view, there is so much going on.
And plus all of these kids have probably had a
heap of challenges around food contributing factors that make it
harder for them to eat. So there's so much for
them to be learning. It's a really tricky space.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
What piqued your interest?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
How did you end up as a dietitian within early childhood?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I left UNI wanting to specialize in geriatrics, which now
looking back, what was I what? I got a local
position in the children's hospital here in Perth when I first.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Graduated, and I was thrown.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Into the feeding clinic there without any real experience. I
didn't have kids on my own, I hadn't worked with
children a lot, but I had the most fabulous mentors
in other professions and speech pathologists, occupational therapists, and I
sat down with some of these families where we were
doing kind of food therapy in a room, and I
was like, Wow, there is so much here that we
(08:03):
can help families with.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
It was such a empowering part.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Of you know, when you're working in a hospital, there's
lots of sick kids and lots of medicalized things. This
was much more about how can I help these families
in their day to day life in a way that
makes so much impact on them, Like the stress that
these families are holding is huge, and I think for me,
I was quite a fussy eater as a kid. I
still kind of eat a mashed potato kind of texture.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
It gives me the ick.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
And I have kind of realized over time how much
of that I have experienced myself, and that I have
an understanding and empathy, not to the degree of some
of the families that I work with, but absolutely an
understanding of how challenging that is. And I just think
the more I've learnt in this area, the more power
we have to help families reduce that stress. Because a stressed,
(08:52):
an anxious and really worried parent, If you add that
into meal times and food for a kid who is
already very worried, very overwhelmed, very panicked about what's going
to be on the table for dinner, it is just a.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Recipe for disaster.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And nobody needs to live like that like it helps nobody.
It feels rubbish, And I just think there's so much
in this space we can do. And so that's kind
of just like lad everything that I've been involved.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
In as a nurse, significant fussy eater who had refusal
to eat so nasogastrically fed the first year. Do you
find that infants that have trouble feeding grow up into
toddlers that are fussy eaters.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yes and no.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
So definitely for our kids who if you have any
kind of feeding a version early in life, whether it's
kind of breast, milk formula, early solids, usually points to
something physiologically or something that is happening for that baby,
making food or eating really challenging, and those kids are
(09:58):
probably more likely to have difficulties ongoing because there's usually
a cause. So I guess what I'm differentiate is there
are lots of babies who like milkfeed's fine.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Take the solid's fine.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
They hit that twelve month mark and they really kind
of head into that typical toddler kind of phase.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Which I'm sure all the nurses listening are well aware of.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
That kind of you know, eighteen months mark when mom
comes in like oh my gosh, you won't need anything
she used to eat, like, oh, we used to have
this and now she won't need anything. You know, that's
kind of a very typical pathway. If I think about
these kids early on, like if your baby only took
milk feeds overnight, they just would not take milk in
the day, or they were gagging and vomiting at every meal,
(10:39):
and they just never had a pleasurable experience of eating.
The likelihood that continues on is quite high because that
child has never learned that that's a pleasurable experience, that
that's something that makes them feel good in their tummy.
Do you know that that's always been laden with pain
or discomfort or worry or panic, And.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
That's a really hard thing to undo.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I do think though, there are a lot of babies
who've struggled with milk feeds who then do OK with food.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
So it's not a like you're doomed if that's the.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Pathway, but they're the babies that I really want to
understand that journey so far and how we can kind
of rewrite some of that script and for the parent
as well, Like if you've had a baby who isn't
gaining weight, everybody's weighing them all the time, You're having
to justify how much you're feeding them, but your whole
feeding relationship with that child is like get more in
(11:30):
at all costs.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Who are just feeding this baby all.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
The time, And that's not a sustainable relationship around food
or milk or meal times either.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
And so that parent comes with so much stress and you.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Can't just discard that, Like once the baby meets a
certain milestone, that parent is just so primed to continue
to be obsessive about what this kid eats, and that
makes it so hard for them. You know, there's so
many factors at play. I often like to think of
it as all the stars misaligning in a way that
kind of sets you on this pathway where maybe they
weren't you know, hugely severe things on their own, but
(12:03):
when you put them together just create this perfect storm.
For New York Times, just being something that nobody wants
to be a part of.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
It is super hard.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
It's exhausting, and it's stressful, and you question your parenting yourself.
You've got well meaning people who should mind their own
business making comments and at the end of the day,
it is sold destroying.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, you spot on.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
The kids are going to feel that as well. So
when we with Jacob, we ended up introducing solids for
him very early, after seeing dietitians and the pediatrician. And
once he's got onto solids, he was a different kid.
But he was introduced super early with what he could tolerate,
and we were very cautious. But to this day, he
(12:52):
has the odd relationship with food. There's some things he loves,
other things absolutely not. And as an adult I would
never think to force food on him. But here we
were as parents with this little boy, trying to shove
as much food as we could because he was like
a whippet with two hollow legs. I'd feel for parents
(13:12):
when I see these You know, they're trying so hard.
They go into a healthcare setting and instead of being
supported and nurtured and uplifted and spoken to with empathy,
sometimes they're a little bit shamed. And I do think
we need to change the dialogue around that.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
These parents are doing absolutely everything in their power, and
there's a real assumption that, like, you should know how
to feed your kid, and when you're faced with a
child who has challenges in eating or milk feeds for
whatever reason, there is so much that goes into that.
It is so complex, kind of unpacking all those things.
For your example, you might never know what was going
(13:51):
on in those early years for him, and that's just
part of your journey. But this real assumption that it's
because the parent isn't doing enough is really really harmful.
I have stories from families before before they go in
for their weight are like, you know, they're feeding their baby,
They're filling up his nappy to make him way more,
just so that nobody says to them, like, well, you're
(14:14):
still not doing enough, and they're like, all I do
is feed this baby.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
All I think about is feeding this baby love. And
I would.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Argue that actually that constant feeding actually gets in the
way of kids knowing how to grow, of doing what
their body needs to do, because they are.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Just so focused.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
You know, families are so focused because they're being told
this is so important, this is absolutely something that needs
to happen.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
You cannot make a child grow more, like you just can't.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
And so really kind of taking a step back and thinking,
is this family actually at capacity for what they're doing here?
What else are our options here? How can I let
them know that they're doing a great job and this
must be so challenging for them? Is like such a
breath of fresh air for these families who are already
like blaming themselves, questioning their parents.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Am I missing something? Like what am I doing wrong?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
That my baby not you know, shoveling down the food
like every other baby in.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
My mother's group.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Yes, the mother's group.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Unfortunately, I believe that for every baby that is struggling,
this other baby is like eating like an absolute horse.
And those parents are comparing themselves to each other. So
this one parent is like, oh my gosh, my baby's
eating so much. I'm so worried that he will not stop.
I cannot you know, feed him enough. And these other
parents are watching this parent, thinking, my gosh, that baby
(15:33):
just eats and he loves it, and like, what is
wrong with my baby? And that comparison serves no footy.
Everybody is worried about their own baby.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
We need to all run our own races and stop
comparing ourselves to each other, which happens in life. I mean,
like it's just one of those things. But I do
believe if we have really great support, So if you've
got a child that is a fasci eater, you know
it is absolutely vital to go and see a dietitian
that specializes in this area. See you're pediatrician, the maternal
(16:03):
and child health nurse. Now, I know the waghing and
that sort of thing is really stressful, but it's also
important to be proactive for yourself and for your kids.
And I say that from someone's that probably was noe
ear as proactive as I should have been when Jacob
was a baby, and I really turned into that patient mode.
(16:23):
I didn't go in in the nurse's mode. It was
a really odd thing when you're there with your children.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
If it was my.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Family, parents, sibling, it'd be completely different. And as my
kids now as adults, would be very different. But when
they were babies, I don't know. I just well, to
be honestly, I fell in a heap.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Well, I think we all think we're not doing a
good enough job. Like that's kind of part of early parenthood,
isn't it. For so many families that you're trying to
prove to everyone like I can do it, but also
I'm not sure I can do this, Like this is
really hard.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You see people all around the world. I suppose COVID
helped you then move across from a clinic into online
I've actually got some wonderful friends that also you see
people all around.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
The world online.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Do you see a lot of people from the States
and from Europe and that sort of thing, not.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
A heat mostly Australian food is such a different thing
across the world that it means different things as completely
different food supplies. The worry is a universal experience that
you should be doing more, you should be trying harder,
and I am very much of the belief that we
are all doing the best that we can with what
(17:35):
we have. Trying harder with meals with food looks like
more pressure, higher expectations, higher stakes. The more that you
try to feed a kid, the more that that child
experiences this sense of like, whoa, this is so full
on and this is not enjoyable, and I feel really pressured,
(17:56):
and it's a lot easier to just not be part
of this and not sit down to eat, And you
end up in this kind of pattern of kids who
are just nibbling as the day. Perhaps they're eating while
they're playing, They're having a bite here, or a bite
they're just to kind of stave off those hunger feelings,
but never enough to sit down and participate in a
meal because it feels so hard. And I really think
(18:17):
for families one of the biggest things that we can
do is help them to take a lot of that
pressure and expectation out of feeding kids that really what
they're doing is enough. Trying really hard, getting emotionally invested
actually makes things harder for both kids and adults.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
And so how do we really kind of dial it back.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I very rarely think there are cases when you're like, oh,
actually this parents just needs to.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Try a bit harder moving forward, and poor habits are
developed early, does that have an impact around teenage eating
and arexinovosa bulimia that sort of thing or is that
a whole other, completely different game.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Generally we're talking a whole other game.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
I think though, what is key and what tracks is
actually the relationship around food. That how you learn about
food early on is the key thing that's protective or.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Risky later in life.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
So if you learn that food has to be fought,
has to be controlled, has to be like, it's a
real source of stress and worry for you, that is
something that tracks into your life in the same way
that if you're taught that food is neutral, you're eating
doesn't please me or upset.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Me that you're eating.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Is your job to do that. You're the boss of
your body. You know how much you need. I don't
have somebody overriding you all the time with how much
you should have. That's a really protective kind of way
of feeding that helps those kids in the long run.
So I think the way that we do it is
more important than what our kids are eating. Like, absolutely,
(19:59):
nutrition is a core part of this, but the how
the relationship that dynam it's around food and meal times,
I think is the critical part.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
People don't remember what you say, but they remember how
you made them feel. Yeah, So around food it's the
same thing. It's how it made you feel at the time.
Those emotions and feelings are attached to eating and then
moving forward, that can prove to be an issue.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah, And I think on top of that, what you
say is less important than what your kids are actually
learning about food. But I don't think we need to
teach those things. I think our kids learn from what
we do most of the time. So you don't ever
actually have to say to your kids, like at dinner,
we eat vegetables, when you mostly serve at least a
(20:47):
vegetable at dinner. That's what your kids learn and take
with them. That's their social norm going into adulthood. It's
not that we have to say like, don't eat junk
food right now. We kind of model like what does
that look like as part of our lives. That's what
our kids are learning. And I think that feeling part
of it is the same. Like if you feel like
your parents are watching you, well they're judging what you eat.
(21:08):
That's a really uncomfortable space. And you know what does
that lead to kids eating in secret disordered style behavior?
And so it all kind of comes together. I think
about what is our long term goal, Like I want
my kids to trust their bodies eat enough for their
bodies to eat without guilt and shame, to eat a
variety of foods, you know, across the week. It's not
(21:30):
like they just eat the exact most healthiest food ever
at every time. It's actually like, long term, I want
them to grow up with a really neutral relationship with food.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I don't want them.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
To be beating themselves up about what they eat. I
don't want them to be scared of eating. I don't
want them to be controlling of their eating. I just
want them to eat enjoy it and move on.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Interesting thing around what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Most people my generation we had to clear our plates, yes,
the starving.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Kids in Africa, don't you remember.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And if we ate everything, then we could get dessert,
which was like whoo, going to my grandparents place for
after church, you know, on a Sunday and this roast
and you cleared your plate because Nan had she put
it in the effort, you know, she put it, and
let me tell you, her food was absolutely amazing. When
(22:21):
I think about the relationship I then developed around food
because I've always struggled with my weight, and there is
absolutely no blame for my parents. I've just always enjoyed food.
But I do sometimes wonder if I just had eaten
until I was satisfied, not eaten because I had to
(22:42):
clear that plate. I do sometimes wonder if that impacted
my relationship with food.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I think it's a huge part of it because we
carry into parenting today of like what a successful meal
looks like, Like it's a successful thing if your child
comes home from school with nothing left in their lunch box,
or if they eat all their dinner.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yes, check, give that a tick. I experienced that feeling
as well.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Like I want to nourish my kids and I want
them to eat, you know, enough, But I think what
our definition of enough is changing that it's not what
an adult acides you should eat. It's not what somebody
else dictates as the amount that's enough, clearing your plate.
You're praised for that, Like it's all about like eat, eat, eat,
and then at some point it's like, oh, not that much,
(23:30):
like you shouldn't be having that much of this, or
you know, I think we need to cut that down.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
It's like, hold on a second.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
I thought the whole point was that I was eating
all this stuff and now I'm not, And particularly for girls,
I think that's a really problematic message is like eat
a lot and then like, okay, not too much.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Yeah, you're not going to be chunky.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Absolutely, And then I struggle at a restaurant like how
can I leave half of this meal if it's huge
but I'm full without offending somebody that I don't even
know or see, you know, out the back, Like there
is a bit of active I'm learning of what a
successful meal looks like.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
As a nurse, and say you're a pediatric nurse, someone's
presented to our patients or to the hospital and they've
spoken to you about worrying about their child not eating
enough being a fussy eater is a really great starting
point for the nurse. As a nurse practitioner, I would
be able to then organize my own referral. But as
(24:29):
a nurse that works on the ward, should they then
approach the doctors or whoever is the referraer in that
setting to then speak with a dietitian. Would that be
the best pathway? Because we're not trained around nutrition, So
what do nurses in the hospital setting do.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
You don't need a referral to a dietitian, encourage them
to see a dietitian. If that's something that they are
wanting to do, you can, depending on what the rules are,
you can encourage them to look into the online kind
of support stuff, so like a membership or a pediatric
dietitian who's providing that advice. I think choosing a health
professional to work with who is experienced in the division
(25:10):
of responsibility, which is an evidence based way of feeding kids,
of really staying in charge of the parent roles and
really letting the child be the boss of their body
is definitely something that they could read more about or
look into.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
How can you explain that a little bit?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, so, the division of responsibility is a way of
feeding kids that was coined by a psychotherapist and dietitian
in the US, Ellen Satter, And it's what I've kind
of just explained before. It's about having roles at meal times.
So parents are in charge of the menu, of the timing,
of the location, of the kind of environment around meal times.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
But kids are very much in control of.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Their body, so they decide if they're going to eat
at a meal time and how much they're going to eat.
And really what this kind of way of feeding looks
like is the parent not being in charge of how
much they eat, of not trying to coerce or encourage
or bribe them to have more or it's about having
predictable meal times that feel safe and enjoyable. And that
(26:10):
is a really great start for families in all situations,
because often when they come to you and they're stressed,
it's got to a point where there's force feeding or
there's you know, bribing, or we're trying to really like
get this stuff into these kids. And so this is
a way that we can support families to really step
back a little bit from that, to really stay in
charge of the things that they can actually control, because
(26:32):
you can't control how many bites a child has. Maybe
you can for a short period of time, but that
is not a sustainable way of feeding kids in the
long term.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
You know, if you get to a five year old.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
And you're having to negotiate how many bites just becomes
more and more of a challenge as we go on.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
So what happens then, So you've got a really nice environment,
child one sitting down who's five, eating a bit of food.
Then you've got your second child in a high chair
two or three years of age, complete refusal meal after meal.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
What do you do then?
Speaker 3 (27:05):
So for those kids, I'd want to know a lot
more about what's going on. So if this is a
child who has been a kind of typically developing eater prior,
and this is a big part of their kind of
two three year old toddler eating regression kind of space,
then what I would be doing is thinking about, Okay,
how do we implement the division responsibility at home? Giving
(27:26):
in mind that there are two kids who have different
preferred foods. I'd be thinking about, you know, particularly for
this youngest kid, what is it that they can eat?
Are their foods that they are confident in eating? Do
we have they're commonly called like safe foods or preferred
foods they're confident with. How do we spread those out
within meals across the day. Is there a way that
we can just set up that basic confidence at meal
(27:49):
times that this child knows they're going to get enough
to be full, Because sometimes we get too focused, I.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Think on where we want them to be. We're really
trying to serve all of this variety and.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
All these foods and the vegetables and all that. But
this child is like got four things that they'll eat.
So actually it's kind of like how do we eat
them where they're at, making sure that those foods are
across the day, and how can we then help them
to have enough to be full of those foods without
the kind of pressure or coaxing that's involved. And so
for some of those kids at the very start, you know,
(28:19):
that might look like a child who eats four slices
of bread at dinner and nothing else because that parent
has provided like maybe it's bread and meat, and maybe
it's veggies, and they've only eaten that bread. But what
they've learned at that meal, if we're meeting them where
they're at, they've learned that I can come to the table,
I can be part of this, I can get enough
to be full, and we can move on without any
(28:40):
discussions or lectures or copy.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
All the things. You know, this is very much long gay.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
This is not an immediate like let's get iron into
them at this particular meal, But this is really about
how do we establish a competence with eating? How can
they know that there is enough and they will be
able to do it and nobody's going to make them
do something they're not ready for yet, and that breeds
confidence over.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
The long run.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
If you've got a child who is eating nothing at
all times and there's something else going on we need
to look at. And I think that's where somebody who
works in the feeding space who's a specialist. It might
be a dietitian, it might be no tea, it might
be a speechy who really understands, like, what are we
looking for in these kids? Why is this so difficult
for them? I think we're referring on there as well.
(29:23):
But sometimes it's giving the parents something that they can
hold on to, And I really don't think the thing
that they're holding on to is like try meat, try this.
It's actually, how do we take some of the stress
out of this so that we can build their confidence,
because confidence comes before variety. Your kid has to know
they can participate in a meal time and be successful
(29:43):
before they're willing to branch out to something new.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
They just don't have that capacity.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Sometimes it's actually like taking a big step back, I think,
a big reset before it is actually moving forward with
the food.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Why do you think it's so hard for parents to
take that step back. I don't know if I would
have been able to do that, because I was so
panicked about feeding and getting new and making sure there
was iron and that you would get sick.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
And how do we do that?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
It's a process, and I think it depends on the family.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
But I think what you're right is as a generation,
we are so hyper focused on nutrients, and I think
to our detriment. And I believe that that is really
a lot of the wellness kind of messaging that's coming
out of social media. It's this real optimization. It's this
idea that you need to have powders and some kind
of you know extra thing that you're not doing enough,
(30:34):
that food's not enough.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
That takes a lot of undoing.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
And I think that's where a dieting can be really
helpful in actually looking at your child's diet and being like, actually,
like this is doing better than you think, because even
like the focus on protein at the moment, everybody's obsessed
by protein, and I just think, like a glass of
milk gives your child like seventy percent of their daily protein,
Like it's wildly our expectations are wildly absolutely, like you
(31:02):
can have a bowl of wheatbix and some milk, you've
the protein average requirements for that day.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Like it is.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
We are so focused on nutrients without the kind of context.
And that's why I don't think we want parents to
be thinking about nutrients really at all. I think we
want to be thinking about food variety, core foods over
the day, over the week. But actually we don't need
to get into the nitty gritty. So sometimes a dietician
can really look at what's going on and be like, actually,
this worry is kind of unfounded, Like here's where we start.
(31:31):
And even if you are worried about iron, for example,
so lots of my fussy eaters are not getting enough iron,
but they don't have the capacity to eat meat yet.
There's so many reasons that meat is challenging. But just
telling about parent, like they need to eat their meat,
they're not. They're not eating it. So if we need
to use an iron supplement to treat low iron in
the short term, that is not a failure. That is
(31:53):
part of our progress towards being able to eat a
variety of foods. And for some kids that's going to
be years down the line that they're able to do that.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And again, how do we meet.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Them where they're at? How do we support those concerns?
Like maybe it is that we're using a supplement in
a short term, but with a strategy, right, It's not
that we're just like, oh, here's a supplement, so okay,
here's a supplement that takes away a lot of your worry.
So that you can really lean into this process, that
you can trust what I'm telling you that we can
give ourselves.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I like to work in a four week block.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Give yourself a few weeks to really lean into this
and see what happens. Because when you give your child
power over their body, when you kind of back out
of the stress and the worry. It really gives kids
a chance to start to show you that they want
to learn about food, that they maybe want to have
a good things in the long run, and you just
can't see that when you're in the weeds of it.
(32:47):
There's a whole lot of things that I would do
when I'm working with a family, but it really is
like handing over someone that worry to me and letting
me deal with the kind of nutrition component, which is
what a dietician you know, really looks into. And it's
the complex thing. And I think you've nailed it. You
can't just say like, don't worry.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Because actually this parented it's so worried.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
It's interesting you saying that about it takes time. Just
from my own experience being in as practitioner within the
dermatology space, we tell people when you think about your skin,
or think about sun damage, or think about acne, it
hasn't happened overnight.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
It's been a process.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
So it's going to take a minimum three months to
be diligent and follow the skincare program. It's probably the same,
maybe not three months. It's not going to happen overnight.
And it's going to be you as a parent relearning
and maybe the child relearning and having that shift of
(33:47):
emotion around food. It's one of those really interesting because
food when you think about food and gut health, and
you know, we spoke about that with doctor Emma Beckett
about food and skin and acne and how it can
make you feel as a parent, how it can make
a child feel is really important and sometimes it has
(34:08):
to be relearned, that joy of food and trust in yourself.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
I think that is something that I don't think we
learned in our generation of like you can stop eating
when you're done, or you can have.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
More if you feel hungry.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Still relearning that, you know that the number of us
who have probably struggled with that experience and how much
should I eat and what's an appropriate amount? And oh
I need to stop now, like one bit of chocolate
is all I can have when actually I feel like more,
but now I'm out of control. And then this kind
of bingey, restricting style of eating that is so common
for women in their thirties and forties. Oh yeah, And
(34:45):
so that is a whole relearning for us, and then
passing something different onto our kids takes you know, we
talk a lot about cycle breaking and you know, generational change,
but this is like a really big thing to change,
and we're probably not going to get it perfect. And
I don't think we have to get it perfect, but
I think it is okay to be like, actually, I
(35:06):
want to do this a bit differently. I want my
kids to feel differently about food than I did. I
want them to trust their body more than I do.
And that takes a lot of effort or learning or
you know, having somebody help you with where you think
like I should know how to feed my child, like
I'm a parent, I should this is the basic of stuff.
How do I not feel comfortable doing this? And that's
(35:27):
why I think people in this space are there to help.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
But you don't know what you don't know, and don't
We had some lovely neighbors where the kids grew up. However,
neighbors on one side lower socioeconomic and honestly, I used
to see what they would feed their children because they
never learned how to eat properly, so their meal would
(35:50):
be bacon and chips three times stay like it was
just all what I perceived to be junk food.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
As adults, they're all obese. It's easy for us that.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Have been educated and have been parented, even though you
know nothing's perfect.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
We all try our best.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
But what happens when you haven't been parented well and
you don't know the right thing to do food wise?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I think it's a real assumption, though, that you don't
know what to do. I don't think it's that people
don't know that vegetables are nutritious, But I think if
you think about families who are feeding their kids bacon
and chips, they are doing so because of a number
of challenges, and whether that is to do with finances,
financial pressure, whether that's to do with all sorts of
(36:41):
challenges on you know, mental health, violence, financial insecurity, food insecurity,
like being able to actually buy enough food for the
people in your family that they can eat enough, Like
those things are such significant factors. And I wonder for
that family whether somebody telling them, like did you know
that vegetables are really nutritious was actually the thing that
(37:04):
would do anything for that family, Like do they know
how to prepare them? Like absolutely, these kids are at
a disadvantage if.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
They haven't had that kind of modeling for them.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
But I would argue they're probably at a disadvantage in
lots of things, and in the scheme of it, it's
probably the least of their worries. I also think there
is a big assumption that your size, your body size,
reflects your diet. You know, in some cases, I'm sure
that is the case, but I also think that there
are many people in bigger bodies who eat absolutely very
(37:36):
nutritious diets. And this is one of my big bugbears
for the poor school health versus, particularly in WA, who
have to weigh our four year olds in KINDI and
send them some healthy eating advice if their child is
above the eighty fifth percentile for the BMI. This real
assumption that your child's in a bigger body, therefore you
must be feeding them rubbish. You must be you know,
(37:57):
not aware that fruits and vegetables are healthy for you.
And that's unfortunately in Wa the only intervention we don't
have a lot of community health diet TETCHE support. I
think that's one of the biggest things where we've gone wrong,
because what we start to introduce them is a real
sense of shame and a sense that you need to
limit and control and manipulate things that actually has all
(38:17):
sorts of unintended consequences for those families.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I'm caught in a paradigm.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
We're like, absolutely, I think we need to you know,
general nutrition education is helpful, but how does that actually
make change? And I don't think it's that people don't
know that vegetables are healthy. It's that there are so
many other things that make it hard for them, and
that social stuff that has to come first before we'll
see in a change.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
It's interesting when I grew up, I was very tall,
and the number of people that used to say, oh,
just such a big girl, such a lovely big girl.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
I hated it.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
And I was super athletic, but I hated being called big.
Then when we had Chloe, she was in that absolute
top centile. She's six foot and I remember the number
of people when they used to watch her play wood
Apollo because she would dominate because she was just so
strong and athletic, and the number of people that would
(39:16):
say to me, oh, she's so big. It was like
red would come over my eyes and I would look
at them and I go, no, she's just athletic. And
I thought, we really have to change the dialogue around
bodies and women that are tall and strong and athletic,
(39:38):
and because of what had happened to me, and I've
got polycystic overs, you know, like there are things I
just can't I've got that much estrogen.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
Or did have.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
All menopause, bloody menopause that I struggled so much with
my weight and periods are due the desire to eat
sweet things or salty things whatever, you wouldn't know, but
the desire to stop other people calling me big, such
a lovely big girl. It was just this positive negative
(40:11):
It really impacted me, and it impacted me into adulthood.
And I didn't want my daughter to feel the same thing.
And I don't know how many times on pool deck
or sitting in the grandstands, I would hear someone say
something about Chloe being a big girl, and I would
lose my shit because I didn't want her growing up
(40:32):
to feel embarrassed about being this beautiful, tall, strong, athletic woman.
I just didn't want people to use the term big.
Was I over the top in that approach? Do you think?
I just think words have so much power around bodies
and around food. Absolutely, And I think it goes the
(40:52):
same small like those families who are struggling with weight
gain in their children, the number of times they've been
told like, oh, she's so tiny, she's like a doll,
like those things.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
When that is a battle that you were facing in
your family or sperience yourself, I like a knife to
the heart.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
It's real.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Are you saying that I'm not doing a good enough job?
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Or are you saying that there's something wrong with her?
Like what is the meaning behind that?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
And I think the key to this is, like, actually,
I prefer you didn't comment on her body, like at all.
I'd prefer that we didn't comment on anyone's body, even
to say that she's a great size, or she's a
big size, or she's a small size, or like just
please don't comment on people's bodies. And I think that's
something that throwaway remarks from health professionals in particular. But
I mean, parents are cobbing this from everywhere. But if
(41:35):
we can be really careful that we don't inadvertently reinforce
a worry by commenting on a child's body or appearance,
like we can absolutely measure them, we can do the
things that we need to do in our role, but
those little comments really worm their way into parents' brains
and really are just a constant trigger for like, how did.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
You let her get so big? How did you let
her get so small?
Speaker 3 (42:00):
And so if we can be as neutral as we
can about that and really not comment bodies, I think
that's a rule for families in general.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
That's a rule in our family. We don't speak about
other people's bodies.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
It's just not our belave that that is so good.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
So powerful, and so important.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
You can ask me your questions, but we don't comment
on how another person's body looks.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Kyla, you are super busy, you're a mom, you have
your own business, you are an educator at university level.
Speaker 4 (42:32):
How do you look after yourself?
Speaker 1 (42:35):
It's a good question.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I really have spent a lot of my dietetic career
relearning some of the things that I grew up with
around food and nourishing my body, those kinds of things
controlling food. One of the things I'm probably most proud
of is.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
How neutral I am around food now. So like when I.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Milk prep and I do that with a friend and
we kind of have enough for the week.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
But there are also.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Times when I will like eat a bit of peanut
butter toast on the go, and.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
I don't beat myself up about.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
That, and I think that's one of my favorite things.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
It's not like there's nothing wrong with pinatater on toast,
but it's not like a nutritionally balanced like everything kind
of matter. But like the same if I'm going to
have some chocolate cake for morning tea, I am not
beating myself up about this is a good choice or
this is a bad choice.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I am really neutral about.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Like, sometimes I feel like these things and I will
eat them. Other times I feel like I'm will balanced meal.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
That's what I'll eat. And I just don't have to
optimize everything.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
And I think that in terms of taking care of myself,
actually takes so much pressure off all the shoulds and
the havef tos. And I spent way too many years
eating things and then feeling bad or eating too much
and feeling bad, and I just do not have time
for that. And I do think that that's made just
a difference to my overall health. Yeah, I mean, the
whhow definition of health is not just about the absence
(43:53):
of disease, right, It's about your mental health, your social health,
your well being. It is not about perfection or focus.
So where I can I make the time considering that, like,
sometimes I don't have time and I do what I need.
Speaker 4 (44:06):
To Onoway, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
I just want to say thank you so much for
taking the time to chat with us today. I will
add information in the show notes about you. I've really
enjoyed this chat with you, and I just want to
say how happy, vibrant, and healthy you look. It's just
such a pleasure to see someone so sensible around food.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
That is one of my core kind of beliefs is
around how can we keep things sensible without freaking out
about everything and scaring every Like, I just don't think
that scaring people into health choices actually works.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
How about we dial it back to a middle ground.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
Of all these things moderation everything, moderation all food's fit.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
So I'm really glad that that's.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
What's come across from what I'm trying to share, because
this is something that I don't think we have to
run ourselves into the groundover.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
And the big thing I just want to dress to
my colleagues is that you don't need a referral to
get a dietitian involved in someone is in your care
in a hospital, and also just be aware of the
words you use about how a child looks, their weight,
(45:24):
their lengths, their height. Take the time to think about
what comes out of your mouth. And we're all at
fault of saying the wrong thing, but if you have
a little bit of insight, it's also okay to go
I'm really sorry.
Speaker 4 (45:37):
I shouldn't have put it that way? Will you forgive me?
Speaker 2 (45:41):
You discuss in a different way, And honestly, that gives
you so much power when you can take the time
to go, you know what, I just didn't handle that. Well,
I'm going to say something and apologize and move forward
with that family, and I promise you your relationship will
just explode and just be so much better if you're honest,
if you make a mistake.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
So how do you see boosebumps?
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Absolutely, that is I think what every health professional and
parent wants. And you can say, like this is a
really tricky or a sensitive discussion. I want to make
sure that you know that I think you're doing a
great job. I'm in your corner, like, here's what I'm
thinking about.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
How does that feel? Rather than like, right, well, have
you fed your children?
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Kind of yeah, I know, And no one needs to
be spoken to anymore. We are adults, and we are sensible,
and I don't have.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Too much information too, so keep in mind that it's
very unlikely that that parent has not googled all of
the beings.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
Kyla. I have loved talking with you.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Thank you so much, my absolute pleasure. Thank you for
having me
Appodjay Production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tenantus for Nurses.
I suspec Woodbine here this season. I am so excited
to announce that the podcast is being supported by Nutritia,
which is a global leader in medical nutrition. They understand
the needs of nurses in the nutrition space and for
over one hundred and twenty five years have provided products
(00:31):
to support child health. Some of Nutrita's pediatric brands include
Neo Kate Junior for children who have food allergies and
app to Grow for those fussy eaters. And those of
us who have children know many kids who go through
the phases of definite fussiness. For more information and resources,
visit the Nutrita Pediatrics Hub at nutritia dot com dot
(00:54):
au forward slash Pediatrics. I just want to say a
huge thank you to Nutritia. Their desire to support nurses
is truly appreciated, and they are allowing me to continue
this podcast so that we can all grow as nurses.
This season, we have some amazing speakers in the pediatric
space which I cannot wait to share with you all. Hi,
(01:14):
my name's Beck Woodbine, and welcome to Tenderness for nurses.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity to.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Be, so I hit it and parked it for Nellie
four years. We always have free will, We always get
to choose.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
We are autonomous.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into tenderness for nurses.
Today we have the amazing doctor Kyler Smith, who is
a specialist around fussy eaters and has done her PhD
in managing and preventing fussy eaters. She's a pediatric dietitian.
And we've just had a few issues with our computer.
(01:55):
But I did ask you.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
You have your own two children. Was one of them
a fussy eater?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
I think both of them are typically fussy. I was
talking about my oldest so in particular, who is seven.
But she is a more sensitive, more cautious, more observant kid,
one who is much slower to warm to new things,
who takes a world of trust, And when she was
particularly in her toddler face, deep in that kind of
(02:25):
beij food stage, I was just so thankful that I
have spent the last twenty years doing what I have
been doing, because I think she probably would have been
a kid who ended up in my clinic if I'd
been given some poor advice along the way, and I'd
been stressing and you know, really pressuring her to eat,
and I could see in the future for us that
(02:46):
there was that potential to really battle around food. And
I'm just so lucky that I know all the things
I know that I could actually really lower my expectations
for her, could really set her up to learn about
food without kind of feeling this real need to get
something into her, which is I think, you know a
challenge for so many families, so many health professional parents
(03:07):
as well.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Do you know, like we sometimes know so.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Much that there's extra pressure on us to get things
into our kids.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
So I have yes, firsthand experience.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
She is still a more cautious eater, probably always will
be quite similar to myself. But we're on a long
term pathway, and that is something like I'm really passionate
about talking about.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
There's so many things that you've brought up there that
makes me. Initially you said that she is a little
bit introverted quite a child. Do you find children of
that nature tend to be fussier readers, Not so much.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
The introvert part of it, but definitely that cautious, sensitive
like she's a kid who can come into a room
and be like, have you been.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Cooking with lemon? Yes?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
I am. So nothing gets past her And absolutely not
a kid that I can just sneak food into because
she's like mate, I can see that a mile off.
Absolutely not, but also just less trusting, Like I think
about her as a kid, and I definitely see this
in my clinic, Like if we went to somebody neew,
you know, to their house. She doesn't just waltz into
(04:15):
the playroom and you know, check out their toys. She's
behind my leg, looking around, taking ages to decide that
she feels comfortable to do something. And that kind of
personality absolutely applies to eating. You know, you think about
learning about or tasting a new food. There is so
much that our body is taking in information wise. We're
(04:37):
learning about what it looks like, what it smells like,
what it feels like in our hands, what it feels
like on our tongue, what happens when you bite into it?
You know, is there juicy parts that come out? Is
it crunchy and noisy? Is it crispy?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
What is it? And so for kids who are slower
to warm to things.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
They have that personality type of really needing to observe
before they get involved. Then learning to like new foods
can be a really tricky experience for them if there's
more pressure on them as well. Like and I learn
this with my own child that if I try and
force her into somebody's play room, or you try and
make her to make friends with somebody, she is unlikely
(05:13):
to even leave my side that entire time. I really
have to prep her and be there in that space
with her. And that's a really hard thing to do
with food, because you're feeding a child so many times
a day. It's exhausting to invest in taking it slowly
and building up to things. And so I really empathize
with families who do have typically fussy kind of kids.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
It's a real challenge.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
It's an interesting thing even as adults.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
You'll often hear adults go, oh, I don't like that
because of the sensation in my mouth. There are some
puddings or even some fruits I've had over in Asia,
even walking past a restaurant, the smell of it, there's
no way I could put that in my mouth. But
they say, if you can get past that, it is
the most amazing thing. You've ever tasted it, Well, I'll
(06:00):
never get past that because my sense of smell is
so strong. But then you talk to adults about, you know, oysters,
and it's quite visceral the response people have. So if
that's us as adults, imagine it as a child, they
can't moderate all their emotions, can they?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
One dred percent.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
We're talking about adults with a developed prefrontal cortex who
are saying, look, I'm going to actually excuse myself from
this meal. I don't feel comfortable eating that thing. If
you look at our kids, if you smell something that
just takes over your whole body as a three year old,
like I'm screaming, I'm crying, I'm throwing myself on the floor,
I'm flipping that plate. There is no way that is
coming near me, especially inside my mouth. And we think
(06:42):
about where all those kind of nerve endings are, where
all those taste buds are, Like that is just a
huge experience to work through. And I think that's such
a great point. Though it's not that our kids just won't,
it's that for so many of them, they can't. It's
too big a jump to go straight to trying something
to eating something. There is so much learning that has
(07:02):
to happen from a sensory point of view, from a
trust point of view, there is so much going on.
And plus all of these kids have probably had a
heap of challenges around food contributing factors that make it
harder for them to eat. So there's so much for
them to be learning. It's a really tricky space.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
What piqued your interest?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
How did you end up as a dietitian within early childhood?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I left UNI wanting to specialize in geriatrics, which now
looking back, what was I what? I got a local
position in the children's hospital here in Perth when I first.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Graduated, and I was thrown.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Into the feeding clinic there without any real experience. I
didn't have kids on my own, I hadn't worked with
children a lot, but I had the most fabulous mentors
in other professions and speech pathologists, occupational therapists, and I
sat down with some of these families where we were
doing kind of food therapy in a room, and I
was like, Wow, there is so much here that we
(08:03):
can help families with.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
It was such a empowering part.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Of you know, when you're working in a hospital, there's
lots of sick kids and lots of medicalized things. This
was much more about how can I help these families
in their day to day life in a way that
makes so much impact on them, Like the stress that
these families are holding is huge, and I think for me,
I was quite a fussy eater as a kid. I
still kind of eat a mashed potato kind of texture.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
It gives me the ick.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
And I have kind of realized over time how much
of that I have experienced myself, and that I have
an understanding and empathy, not to the degree of some
of the families that I work with, but absolutely an
understanding of how challenging that is. And I just think
the more I've learnt in this area, the more power
we have to help families reduce that stress. Because a stressed,
(08:52):
an anxious and really worried parent, If you add that
into meal times and food for a kid who is
already very worried, very overwhelmed, very panicked about what's going
to be on the table for dinner, it is just a.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Recipe for disaster.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And nobody needs to live like that like it helps nobody.
It feels rubbish, And I just think there's so much
in this space we can do. And so that's kind
of just like lad everything that I've been involved.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
In as a nurse, significant fussy eater who had refusal
to eat so nasogastrically fed the first year. Do you
find that infants that have trouble feeding grow up into
toddlers that are fussy eaters.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yes and no.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
So definitely for our kids who if you have any
kind of feeding a version early in life, whether it's
kind of breast, milk formula, early solids, usually points to
something physiologically or something that is happening for that baby,
making food or eating really challenging, and those kids are
(09:58):
probably more likely to have difficulties ongoing because there's usually
a cause. So I guess what I'm differentiate is there
are lots of babies who like milkfeed's fine.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Take the solid's fine.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
They hit that twelve month mark and they really kind
of head into that typical toddler kind of phase.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Which I'm sure all the nurses listening are well aware of.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
That kind of you know, eighteen months mark when mom
comes in like oh my gosh, you won't need anything
she used to eat, like, oh, we used to have
this and now she won't need anything. You know, that's
kind of a very typical pathway. If I think about
these kids early on, like if your baby only took
milk feeds overnight, they just would not take milk in
the day, or they were gagging and vomiting at every meal,
(10:39):
and they just never had a pleasurable experience of eating.
The likelihood that continues on is quite high because that
child has never learned that that's a pleasurable experience, that
that's something that makes them feel good in their tummy.
Do you know that that's always been laden with pain
or discomfort or worry or panic, And.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
That's a really hard thing to undo.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I do think though, there are a lot of babies
who've struggled with milk feeds who then do OK with food.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
So it's not a like you're doomed if that's the.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Pathway, but they're the babies that I really want to
understand that journey so far and how we can kind
of rewrite some of that script and for the parent
as well, Like if you've had a baby who isn't
gaining weight, everybody's weighing them all the time, You're having
to justify how much you're feeding them, but your whole
feeding relationship with that child is like get more in
(11:30):
at all costs.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Who are just feeding this baby all.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
The time, And that's not a sustainable relationship around food
or milk or meal times either.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
And so that parent comes with so much stress and you.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Can't just discard that, Like once the baby meets a
certain milestone, that parent is just so primed to continue
to be obsessive about what this kid eats, and that
makes it so hard for them. You know, there's so
many factors at play. I often like to think of
it as all the stars misaligning in a way that
kind of sets you on this pathway where maybe they
weren't you know, hugely severe things on their own, but
(12:03):
when you put them together just create this perfect storm.
For New York Times, just being something that nobody wants
to be a part of.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
It is super hard.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
It's exhausting, and it's stressful, and you question your parenting yourself.
You've got well meaning people who should mind their own
business making comments and at the end of the day,
it is sold destroying.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, you spot on.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
The kids are going to feel that as well. So
when we with Jacob, we ended up introducing solids for
him very early, after seeing dietitians and the pediatrician. And
once he's got onto solids, he was a different kid.
But he was introduced super early with what he could tolerate,
and we were very cautious. But to this day, he
(12:52):
has the odd relationship with food. There's some things he loves,
other things absolutely not. And as an adult I would
never think to force food on him. But here we
were as parents with this little boy, trying to shove
as much food as we could because he was like
a whippet with two hollow legs. I'd feel for parents
(13:12):
when I see these You know, they're trying so hard.
They go into a healthcare setting and instead of being
supported and nurtured and uplifted and spoken to with empathy,
sometimes they're a little bit shamed. And I do think
we need to change the dialogue around that.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
These parents are doing absolutely everything in their power, and
there's a real assumption that, like, you should know how
to feed your kid, and when you're faced with a
child who has challenges in eating or milk feeds for
whatever reason, there is so much that goes into that.
It is so complex, kind of unpacking all those things.
For your example, you might never know what was going
(13:51):
on in those early years for him, and that's just
part of your journey. But this real assumption that it's
because the parent isn't doing enough is really really harmful.
I have stories from families before before they go in
for their weight are like, you know, they're feeding their baby,
They're filling up his nappy to make him way more,
just so that nobody says to them, like, well, you're
(14:14):
still not doing enough, and they're like, all I do
is feed this baby.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
All I think about is feeding this baby love. And
I would.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Argue that actually that constant feeding actually gets in the
way of kids knowing how to grow, of doing what
their body needs to do, because they are.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Just so focused.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
You know, families are so focused because they're being told
this is so important, this is absolutely something that needs
to happen.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
You cannot make a child grow more, like you just can't.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
And so really kind of taking a step back and thinking,
is this family actually at capacity for what they're doing here?
What else are our options here? How can I let
them know that they're doing a great job and this
must be so challenging for them? Is like such a
breath of fresh air for these families who are already
like blaming themselves, questioning their parents.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Am I missing something? Like what am I doing wrong?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
That my baby not you know, shoveling down the food
like every other baby in.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
My mother's group.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Yes, the mother's group.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Unfortunately, I believe that for every baby that is struggling,
this other baby is like eating like an absolute horse.
And those parents are comparing themselves to each other. So
this one parent is like, oh my gosh, my baby's
eating so much. I'm so worried that he will not stop.
I cannot you know, feed him enough. And these other
parents are watching this parent, thinking, my gosh, that baby
(15:33):
just eats and he loves it, and like, what is
wrong with my baby? And that comparison serves no footy.
Everybody is worried about their own baby.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
We need to all run our own races and stop
comparing ourselves to each other, which happens in life. I mean,
like it's just one of those things. But I do
believe if we have really great support, So if you've
got a child that is a fasci eater, you know
it is absolutely vital to go and see a dietitian
that specializes in this area. See you're pediatrician, the maternal
(16:03):
and child health nurse. Now, I know the waghing and
that sort of thing is really stressful, but it's also
important to be proactive for yourself and for your kids.
And I say that from someone's that probably was noe
ear as proactive as I should have been when Jacob
was a baby, and I really turned into that patient mode.
(16:23):
I didn't go in in the nurse's mode. It was
a really odd thing when you're there with your children.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
If it was my.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Family, parents, sibling, it'd be completely different. And as my
kids now as adults, would be very different. But when
they were babies, I don't know. I just well, to
be honestly, I fell in a heap.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Well, I think we all think we're not doing a
good enough job. Like that's kind of part of early parenthood,
isn't it. For so many families that you're trying to
prove to everyone like I can do it, but also
I'm not sure I can do this, Like this is
really hard.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You see people all around the world. I suppose COVID
helped you then move across from a clinic into online
I've actually got some wonderful friends that also you see
people all around.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
The world online.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Do you see a lot of people from the States
and from Europe and that sort of thing, not.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
A heat mostly Australian food is such a different thing
across the world that it means different things as completely
different food supplies. The worry is a universal experience that
you should be doing more, you should be trying harder,
and I am very much of the belief that we
are all doing the best that we can with what
(17:35):
we have. Trying harder with meals with food looks like
more pressure, higher expectations, higher stakes. The more that you
try to feed a kid, the more that that child
experiences this sense of like, whoa, this is so full
on and this is not enjoyable, and I feel really pressured,
(17:56):
and it's a lot easier to just not be part
of this and not sit down to eat, And you
end up in this kind of pattern of kids who
are just nibbling as the day. Perhaps they're eating while
they're playing, They're having a bite here, or a bite
they're just to kind of stave off those hunger feelings,
but never enough to sit down and participate in a
meal because it feels so hard. And I really think
(18:17):
for families one of the biggest things that we can
do is help them to take a lot of that
pressure and expectation out of feeding kids that really what
they're doing is enough. Trying really hard, getting emotionally invested
actually makes things harder for both kids and adults.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
And so how do we really kind of dial it back.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I very rarely think there are cases when you're like, oh,
actually this parents just needs to.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Try a bit harder moving forward, and poor habits are
developed early, does that have an impact around teenage eating
and arexinovosa bulimia that sort of thing or is that
a whole other, completely different game.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Generally we're talking a whole other game.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
I think though, what is key and what tracks is
actually the relationship around food. That how you learn about
food early on is the key thing that's protective or.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Risky later in life.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
So if you learn that food has to be fought,
has to be controlled, has to be like, it's a
real source of stress and worry for you, that is
something that tracks into your life in the same way
that if you're taught that food is neutral, you're eating
doesn't please me or upset.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Me that you're eating.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Is your job to do that. You're the boss of
your body. You know how much you need. I don't
have somebody overriding you all the time with how much
you should have. That's a really protective kind of way
of feeding that helps those kids in the long run.
So I think the way that we do it is
more important than what our kids are eating. Like, absolutely,
(19:59):
nutrition is a core part of this, but the how
the relationship that dynam it's around food and meal times,
I think is the critical part.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
People don't remember what you say, but they remember how
you made them feel. Yeah, So around food it's the
same thing. It's how it made you feel at the time.
Those emotions and feelings are attached to eating and then
moving forward, that can prove to be an issue.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah, And I think on top of that, what you
say is less important than what your kids are actually
learning about food. But I don't think we need to
teach those things. I think our kids learn from what
we do most of the time. So you don't ever
actually have to say to your kids, like at dinner,
we eat vegetables, when you mostly serve at least a
(20:47):
vegetable at dinner. That's what your kids learn and take
with them. That's their social norm going into adulthood. It's
not that we have to say like, don't eat junk
food right now. We kind of model like what does
that look like as part of our lives. That's what
our kids are learning. And I think that feeling part
of it is the same. Like if you feel like
your parents are watching you, well they're judging what you eat.
(21:08):
That's a really uncomfortable space. And you know what does
that lead to kids eating in secret disordered style behavior?
And so it all kind of comes together. I think
about what is our long term goal, Like I want
my kids to trust their bodies eat enough for their
bodies to eat without guilt and shame, to eat a
variety of foods, you know, across the week. It's not
(21:30):
like they just eat the exact most healthiest food ever
at every time. It's actually like, long term, I want
them to grow up with a really neutral relationship with food.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I don't want them.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
To be beating themselves up about what they eat. I
don't want them to be scared of eating. I don't
want them to be controlling of their eating. I just
want them to eat enjoy it and move on.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Interesting thing around what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Most people my generation we had to clear our plates, yes,
the starving.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Kids in Africa, don't you remember.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And if we ate everything, then we could get dessert,
which was like whoo, going to my grandparents place for
after church, you know, on a Sunday and this roast
and you cleared your plate because Nan had she put
it in the effort, you know, she put it, and
let me tell you, her food was absolutely amazing. When
(22:21):
I think about the relationship I then developed around food
because I've always struggled with my weight, and there is
absolutely no blame for my parents. I've just always enjoyed food.
But I do sometimes wonder if I just had eaten
until I was satisfied, not eaten because I had to
(22:42):
clear that plate. I do sometimes wonder if that impacted
my relationship with food.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I think it's a huge part of it because we
carry into parenting today of like what a successful meal
looks like, Like it's a successful thing if your child
comes home from school with nothing left in their lunch box,
or if they eat all their dinner.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yes, check, give that a tick. I experienced that feeling
as well.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Like I want to nourish my kids and I want
them to eat, you know, enough, But I think what
our definition of enough is changing that it's not what
an adult acides you should eat. It's not what somebody
else dictates as the amount that's enough, clearing your plate.
You're praised for that, Like it's all about like eat, eat, eat,
and then at some point it's like, oh, not that much,
(23:30):
like you shouldn't be having that much of this, or
you know, I think we need to cut that down.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
It's like, hold on a second.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
I thought the whole point was that I was eating
all this stuff and now I'm not, And particularly for girls,
I think that's a really problematic message is like eat
a lot and then like, okay, not too much.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Yeah, you're not going to be chunky.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Absolutely, And then I struggle at a restaurant like how
can I leave half of this meal if it's huge
but I'm full without offending somebody that I don't even
know or see, you know, out the back, Like there
is a bit of active I'm learning of what a
successful meal looks like.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
As a nurse, and say you're a pediatric nurse, someone's
presented to our patients or to the hospital and they've
spoken to you about worrying about their child not eating
enough being a fussy eater is a really great starting
point for the nurse. As a nurse practitioner, I would
be able to then organize my own referral. But as
(24:29):
a nurse that works on the ward, should they then
approach the doctors or whoever is the referraer in that
setting to then speak with a dietitian. Would that be
the best pathway? Because we're not trained around nutrition, So
what do nurses in the hospital setting do.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
You don't need a referral to a dietitian, encourage them
to see a dietitian. If that's something that they are
wanting to do, you can, depending on what the rules are,
you can encourage them to look into the online kind
of support stuff, so like a membership or a pediatric
dietitian who's providing that advice. I think choosing a health
professional to work with who is experienced in the division
(25:10):
of responsibility, which is an evidence based way of feeding kids,
of really staying in charge of the parent roles and
really letting the child be the boss of their body
is definitely something that they could read more about or
look into.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
How can you explain that a little bit?
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, so, the division of responsibility is a way of
feeding kids that was coined by a psychotherapist and dietitian
in the US, Ellen Satter, And it's what I've kind
of just explained before. It's about having roles at meal times.
So parents are in charge of the menu, of the timing,
of the location, of the kind of environment around meal times.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
But kids are very much in control of.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Their body, so they decide if they're going to eat
at a meal time and how much they're going to eat.
And really what this kind of way of feeding looks
like is the parent not being in charge of how
much they eat, of not trying to coerce or encourage
or bribe them to have more or it's about having
predictable meal times that feel safe and enjoyable. And that
(26:10):
is a really great start for families in all situations,
because often when they come to you and they're stressed,
it's got to a point where there's force feeding or
there's you know, bribing, or we're trying to really like
get this stuff into these kids. And so this is
a way that we can support families to really step
back a little bit from that, to really stay in
charge of the things that they can actually control, because
(26:32):
you can't control how many bites a child has. Maybe
you can for a short period of time, but that
is not a sustainable way of feeding kids in the
long term.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
You know, if you get to a five year old.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
And you're having to negotiate how many bites just becomes
more and more of a challenge as we go on.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
So what happens then, So you've got a really nice environment,
child one sitting down who's five, eating a bit of food.
Then you've got your second child in a high chair
two or three years of age, complete refusal meal after meal.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
What do you do then?
Speaker 3 (27:05):
So for those kids, I'd want to know a lot
more about what's going on. So if this is a
child who has been a kind of typically developing eater prior,
and this is a big part of their kind of
two three year old toddler eating regression kind of space,
then what I would be doing is thinking about, Okay,
how do we implement the division responsibility at home? Giving
(27:26):
in mind that there are two kids who have different
preferred foods. I'd be thinking about, you know, particularly for
this youngest kid, what is it that they can eat?
Are their foods that they are confident in eating? Do
we have they're commonly called like safe foods or preferred
foods they're confident with. How do we spread those out
within meals across the day. Is there a way that
we can just set up that basic confidence at meal
(27:49):
times that this child knows they're going to get enough
to be full, Because sometimes we get too focused, I.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Think on where we want them to be. We're really
trying to serve all of this variety and.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
All these foods and the vegetables and all that. But
this child is like got four things that they'll eat.
So actually it's kind of like how do we eat
them where they're at, making sure that those foods are
across the day, and how can we then help them
to have enough to be full of those foods without
the kind of pressure or coaxing that's involved. And so
for some of those kids at the very start, you know,
(28:19):
that might look like a child who eats four slices
of bread at dinner and nothing else because that parent
has provided like maybe it's bread and meat, and maybe
it's veggies, and they've only eaten that bread. But what
they've learned at that meal, if we're meeting them where
they're at, they've learned that I can come to the table,
I can be part of this, I can get enough
to be full, and we can move on without any
(28:40):
discussions or lectures or copy.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
All the things. You know, this is very much long gay.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
This is not an immediate like let's get iron into
them at this particular meal, But this is really about
how do we establish a competence with eating? How can
they know that there is enough and they will be
able to do it and nobody's going to make them
do something they're not ready for yet, and that breeds
confidence over.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
The long run.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
If you've got a child who is eating nothing at
all times and there's something else going on we need
to look at. And I think that's where somebody who
works in the feeding space who's a specialist. It might
be a dietitian, it might be no tea, it might
be a speechy who really understands, like, what are we
looking for in these kids? Why is this so difficult
for them? I think we're referring on there as well.
(29:23):
But sometimes it's giving the parents something that they can
hold on to, And I really don't think the thing
that they're holding on to is like try meat, try this.
It's actually, how do we take some of the stress
out of this so that we can build their confidence,
because confidence comes before variety. Your kid has to know
they can participate in a meal time and be successful
(29:43):
before they're willing to branch out to something new.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
They just don't have that capacity.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Sometimes it's actually like taking a big step back, I think,
a big reset before it is actually moving forward with
the food.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Why do you think it's so hard for parents to
take that step back. I don't know if I would
have been able to do that, because I was so
panicked about feeding and getting new and making sure there
was iron and that you would get sick.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
And how do we do that?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
It's a process, and I think it depends on the family.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
But I think what you're right is as a generation,
we are so hyper focused on nutrients, and I think
to our detriment. And I believe that that is really
a lot of the wellness kind of messaging that's coming
out of social media. It's this real optimization. It's this
idea that you need to have powders and some kind
of you know extra thing that you're not doing enough,
(30:34):
that food's not enough.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
That takes a lot of undoing.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
And I think that's where a dieting can be really
helpful in actually looking at your child's diet and being like, actually,
like this is doing better than you think, because even
like the focus on protein at the moment, everybody's obsessed
by protein, and I just think, like a glass of
milk gives your child like seventy percent of their daily protein,
Like it's wildly our expectations are wildly absolutely, like you
(31:02):
can have a bowl of wheatbix and some milk, you've
the protein average requirements for that day.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Like it is.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
We are so focused on nutrients without the kind of context.
And that's why I don't think we want parents to
be thinking about nutrients really at all. I think we
want to be thinking about food variety, core foods over
the day, over the week. But actually we don't need
to get into the nitty gritty. So sometimes a dietician
can really look at what's going on and be like, actually,
this worry is kind of unfounded, Like here's where we start.
(31:31):
And even if you are worried about iron, for example,
so lots of my fussy eaters are not getting enough iron,
but they don't have the capacity to eat meat yet.
There's so many reasons that meat is challenging. But just
telling about parent, like they need to eat their meat,
they're not. They're not eating it. So if we need
to use an iron supplement to treat low iron in
the short term, that is not a failure. That is
(31:53):
part of our progress towards being able to eat a
variety of foods. And for some kids that's going to
be years down the line that they're able to do that.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And again, how do we meet.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Them where they're at? How do we support those concerns?
Like maybe it is that we're using a supplement in
a short term, but with a strategy, right, It's not
that we're just like, oh, here's a supplement, so okay,
here's a supplement that takes away a lot of your worry.
So that you can really lean into this process, that
you can trust what I'm telling you that we can
give ourselves.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I like to work in a four week block.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Give yourself a few weeks to really lean into this
and see what happens. Because when you give your child
power over their body, when you kind of back out
of the stress and the worry. It really gives kids
a chance to start to show you that they want
to learn about food, that they maybe want to have
a good things in the long run, and you just
can't see that when you're in the weeds of it.
(32:47):
There's a whole lot of things that I would do
when I'm working with a family, but it really is
like handing over someone that worry to me and letting
me deal with the kind of nutrition component, which is
what a dietician you know, really looks into. And it's
the complex thing. And I think you've nailed it. You
can't just say like, don't worry.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Because actually this parented it's so worried.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
It's interesting you saying that about it takes time. Just
from my own experience being in as practitioner within the
dermatology space, we tell people when you think about your skin,
or think about sun damage, or think about acne, it
hasn't happened overnight.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
It's been a process.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
So it's going to take a minimum three months to
be diligent and follow the skincare program. It's probably the same,
maybe not three months. It's not going to happen overnight.
And it's going to be you as a parent relearning
and maybe the child relearning and having that shift of
(33:47):
emotion around food. It's one of those really interesting because
food when you think about food and gut health, and
you know, we spoke about that with doctor Emma Beckett
about food and skin and acne and how it can
make you feel as a parent, how it can make
a child feel is really important and sometimes it has
(34:08):
to be relearned, that joy of food and trust in yourself.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
I think that is something that I don't think we
learned in our generation of like you can stop eating
when you're done, or you can have.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
More if you feel hungry.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Still relearning that, you know that the number of us
who have probably struggled with that experience and how much
should I eat and what's an appropriate amount? And oh
I need to stop now, like one bit of chocolate
is all I can have when actually I feel like more,
but now I'm out of control. And then this kind
of bingey, restricting style of eating that is so common
for women in their thirties and forties. Oh yeah, And
(34:45):
so that is a whole relearning for us, and then
passing something different onto our kids takes you know, we
talk a lot about cycle breaking and you know, generational change,
but this is like a really big thing to change,
and we're probably not going to get it perfect. And
I don't think we have to get it perfect, but
I think it is okay to be like, actually, I
(35:06):
want to do this a bit differently. I want my
kids to feel differently about food than I did. I
want them to trust their body more than I do.
And that takes a lot of effort or learning or
you know, having somebody help you with where you think
like I should know how to feed my child, like
I'm a parent, I should this is the basic of stuff.
How do I not feel comfortable doing this? And that's
(35:27):
why I think people in this space are there to help.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
But you don't know what you don't know, and don't
We had some lovely neighbors where the kids grew up. However,
neighbors on one side lower socioeconomic and honestly, I used
to see what they would feed their children because they
never learned how to eat properly, so their meal would
(35:50):
be bacon and chips three times stay like it was
just all what I perceived to be junk food.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
As adults, they're all obese. It's easy for us that.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Have been educated and have been parented, even though you
know nothing's perfect.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
We all try our best.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
But what happens when you haven't been parented well and
you don't know the right thing to do food wise?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
I think it's a real assumption, though, that you don't
know what to do. I don't think it's that people
don't know that vegetables are nutritious, But I think if
you think about families who are feeding their kids bacon
and chips, they are doing so because of a number
of challenges, and whether that is to do with finances,
financial pressure, whether that's to do with all sorts of
(36:41):
challenges on you know, mental health, violence, financial insecurity, food insecurity,
like being able to actually buy enough food for the
people in your family that they can eat enough, Like
those things are such significant factors. And I wonder for
that family whether somebody telling them, like did you know
that vegetables are really nutritious was actually the thing that
(37:04):
would do anything for that family, Like do they know
how to prepare them? Like absolutely, these kids are at
a disadvantage if.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
They haven't had that kind of modeling for them.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
But I would argue they're probably at a disadvantage in
lots of things, and in the scheme of it, it's
probably the least of their worries. I also think there
is a big assumption that your size, your body size,
reflects your diet. You know, in some cases, I'm sure
that is the case, but I also think that there
are many people in bigger bodies who eat absolutely very
(37:36):
nutritious diets. And this is one of my big bugbears
for the poor school health versus, particularly in WA, who
have to weigh our four year olds in KINDI and
send them some healthy eating advice if their child is
above the eighty fifth percentile for the BMI. This real
assumption that your child's in a bigger body, therefore you
must be feeding them rubbish. You must be you know,
(37:57):
not aware that fruits and vegetables are healthy for you.
And that's unfortunately in Wa the only intervention we don't
have a lot of community health diet TETCHE support. I
think that's one of the biggest things where we've gone wrong,
because what we start to introduce them is a real
sense of shame and a sense that you need to
limit and control and manipulate things that actually has all
(38:17):
sorts of unintended consequences for those families.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I'm caught in a paradigm.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
We're like, absolutely, I think we need to you know,
general nutrition education is helpful, but how does that actually
make change? And I don't think it's that people don't
know that vegetables are healthy. It's that there are so
many other things that make it hard for them, and
that social stuff that has to come first before we'll
see in a change.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
It's interesting when I grew up, I was very tall,
and the number of people that used to say, oh,
just such a big girl, such a lovely big girl.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
I hated it.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
And I was super athletic, but I hated being called big.
Then when we had Chloe, she was in that absolute
top centile. She's six foot and I remember the number
of people when they used to watch her play wood
Apollo because she would dominate because she was just so
strong and athletic, and the number of people that would
(39:16):
say to me, oh, she's so big. It was like
red would come over my eyes and I would look
at them and I go, no, she's just athletic. And
I thought, we really have to change the dialogue around
bodies and women that are tall and strong and athletic,
(39:38):
and because of what had happened to me, and I've
got polycystic overs, you know, like there are things I
just can't I've got that much estrogen.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
Or did have.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
All menopause, bloody menopause that I struggled so much with
my weight and periods are due the desire to eat
sweet things or salty things whatever, you wouldn't know, but
the desire to stop other people calling me big, such
a lovely big girl. It was just this positive negative
(40:11):
It really impacted me, and it impacted me into adulthood.
And I didn't want my daughter to feel the same thing.
And I don't know how many times on pool deck
or sitting in the grandstands, I would hear someone say
something about Chloe being a big girl, and I would
lose my shit because I didn't want her growing up
(40:32):
to feel embarrassed about being this beautiful, tall, strong, athletic woman.
I just didn't want people to use the term big.
Was I over the top in that approach? Do you think?
I just think words have so much power around bodies
and around food. Absolutely, And I think it goes the
(40:52):
same small like those families who are struggling with weight
gain in their children, the number of times they've been
told like, oh, she's so tiny, she's like a doll,
like those things.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
When that is a battle that you were facing in
your family or sperience yourself, I like a knife to
the heart.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
It's real.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Are you saying that I'm not doing a good enough job?
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Or are you saying that there's something wrong with her?
Like what is the meaning behind that?
Speaker 3 (41:13):
And I think the key to this is, like, actually,
I prefer you didn't comment on her body, like at all.
I'd prefer that we didn't comment on anyone's body, even
to say that she's a great size, or she's a
big size, or she's a small size, or like just
please don't comment on people's bodies. And I think that's
something that throwaway remarks from health professionals in particular. But
I mean, parents are cobbing this from everywhere. But if
(41:35):
we can be really careful that we don't inadvertently reinforce
a worry by commenting on a child's body or appearance,
like we can absolutely measure them, we can do the
things that we need to do in our role, but
those little comments really worm their way into parents' brains
and really are just a constant trigger for like, how did.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
You let her get so big? How did you let
her get so small?
Speaker 3 (42:00):
And so if we can be as neutral as we
can about that and really not comment bodies, I think
that's a rule for families in general.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
That's a rule in our family. We don't speak about
other people's bodies.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
It's just not our belave that that is so good.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
So powerful, and so important.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
You can ask me your questions, but we don't comment
on how another person's body looks.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Kyla, you are super busy, you're a mom, you have
your own business, you are an educator at university level.
Speaker 4 (42:32):
How do you look after yourself?
Speaker 1 (42:35):
It's a good question.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I really have spent a lot of my dietetic career
relearning some of the things that I grew up with
around food and nourishing my body, those kinds of things
controlling food. One of the things I'm probably most proud
of is.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
How neutral I am around food now. So like when I.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Milk prep and I do that with a friend and
we kind of have enough for the week.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
But there are also.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Times when I will like eat a bit of peanut
butter toast on the go, and.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
I don't beat myself up about.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
That, and I think that's one of my favorite things.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
It's not like there's nothing wrong with pinatater on toast,
but it's not like a nutritionally balanced like everything kind
of matter. But like the same if I'm going to
have some chocolate cake for morning tea, I am not
beating myself up about this is a good choice or
this is a bad choice.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I am really neutral about.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Like, sometimes I feel like these things and I will
eat them. Other times I feel like I'm will balanced meal.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
That's what I'll eat. And I just don't have to
optimize everything.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
And I think that in terms of taking care of myself,
actually takes so much pressure off all the shoulds and
the havef tos. And I spent way too many years
eating things and then feeling bad or eating too much
and feeling bad, and I just do not have time
for that. And I do think that that's made just
a difference to my overall health. Yeah, I mean, the
whhow definition of health is not just about the absence
(43:53):
of disease, right, It's about your mental health, your social health,
your well being. It is not about perfection or focus.
So where I can I make the time considering that, like,
sometimes I don't have time and I do what I need.
Speaker 4 (44:06):
To Onoway, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
I just want to say thank you so much for
taking the time to chat with us today. I will
add information in the show notes about you. I've really
enjoyed this chat with you, and I just want to
say how happy, vibrant, and healthy you look. It's just
such a pleasure to see someone so sensible around food.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
That is one of my core kind of beliefs is
around how can we keep things sensible without freaking out
about everything and scaring every Like, I just don't think
that scaring people into health choices actually works.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
How about we dial it back to a middle ground.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
Of all these things moderation everything, moderation all food's fit.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
So I'm really glad that that's.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
What's come across from what I'm trying to share, because
this is something that I don't think we have to
run ourselves into the groundover.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
And the big thing I just want to dress to
my colleagues is that you don't need a referral to
get a dietitian involved in someone is in your care
in a hospital, and also just be aware of the
words you use about how a child looks, their weight,
(45:24):
their lengths, their height. Take the time to think about
what comes out of your mouth. And we're all at
fault of saying the wrong thing, but if you have
a little bit of insight, it's also okay to go
I'm really sorry.
Speaker 4 (45:37):
I shouldn't have put it that way? Will you forgive me?
Speaker 2 (45:41):
You discuss in a different way, And honestly, that gives
you so much power when you can take the time
to go, you know what, I just didn't handle that. Well,
I'm going to say something and apologize and move forward
with that family, and I promise you your relationship will
just explode and just be so much better if you're honest,
if you make a mistake.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
So how do you see boosebumps?
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Absolutely, that is I think what every health professional and
parent wants. And you can say, like this is a
really tricky or a sensitive discussion. I want to make
sure that you know that I think you're doing a
great job. I'm in your corner, like, here's what I'm
thinking about.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
How does that feel? Rather than like, right, well, have
you fed your children?
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Kind of yeah, I know, And no one needs to
be spoken to anymore. We are adults, and we are sensible,
and I don't have.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Too much information too, so keep in mind that it's
very unlikely that that parent has not googled all of
the beings.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
Kyla. I have loved talking with you.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Thank you so much, my absolute pleasure. Thank you for
having me
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