March 2, 2025 • 36 mins
Today on the podcast we chat with two remarkable women who are helping to assist the community around gambling harm.
Zen, is a social worker and counsellor for Turning Point . Her role is to assist clients who call or reach out for assistance with their gambling concerns.
The statistics are clear; as a nation of 27 million Australians , there was a loss of 32 billion to gambling last year.
Young men are the fastest growing demographic of gamblers.
Kate bravely speaks around her own lived experience with gambling and the impact it has had on her life. She discusses how she no longer has shame around her gambling misuse disorder and discusses very frankly how we are being manipulated by companies to use pokies and online apps.
The scary part is how young this is starting. By allowing our children to use gaming apps that win tokens, these apps (built by gambling online companies) are building neural pathways to segue seamlessly from fun kids apps to gambling online apps.
Part B drops next week.
Bek x
If you have concerns around gambling harm you can call:
Turning Point: www.turning point.org.au.
Gamblers Help Line:
Gambling Help Online: www.gamblinghelponline.org.au
If you require immediate support please contact:
Lifeline 13 11 14 or call 000.
For more support services visit the Turning Point & Gambling Help Online websites below:
www.turningpoint.org.au
www.gamblinghelponline.org.au
Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/tendernessnurses
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apogae Production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi guys, thank you for tuning into Tennis for Nurses.
This week's episode around gambling does have some triggering conversations,
but because there was so much information disseminated by these
two remarkable women, Kat and Zen, we are going to
do a Part A and we will then be doing
a Part B because you need to hear what they
(00:31):
had to say about gambling and the concerns around gambling
in Australia. So this week will drop Part A and
next week will drop Part B. Hi, my name's beck
Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity to.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Be, so I hit it and parked it for Nellie
four years. We always have free will, we always get
to choose.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
We are autonomous.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tennis for Nurses.
I'm actually really excited today to chat with two amazing
women who are trying to change and bring to light
the issues around gambling here in Australia. And it's a
little bit of a forgotten addiction. It doesn't get the
(01:20):
media attention that say alcohol or drugs do. However, the
impact in Australia is huge with what gambling does to families,
to people the community, and I really just wanted to
touch on this form of addiction, just to bring it
to light a little bit because there's so many people
(01:41):
that do have issues in this space and I just
felt it was important that we talk about it as well.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So good morning Zen, Good morning Kate. How are you both?
Very well? Thank you So Zen, We'll start with you. Han.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Can you give us a little bit of background on you,
what you do, how you help Turning Point and also
how you help the people that come to you guys.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
So, I am a social worker. I work as counseling
role at Turning Point. Turning Point is a Melbourne based
addiction treatment, research and education service which is founded in
nineteen ninety four. It's now part of Eastern Health and
covers quite a broad gamut of treatment modalities and programs
(02:31):
across Melbourne and the Eastern Suburbs. More particularly, we have
a variety of different services designed to support individuals who
are seeking help around gambling harm, including kind of online services, websites,
web chats and also telephone services as well.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
So your background is social work, Yeah, so you've done
all your study and what made you decide to segue
into this space.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I did my initial placement at Turning Point in twenty twenty.
I had always been interested in alcohol and drug treatment services,
as I'd studied it in my undergraduate degree as well,
and during my placement obviously we'd actually did a lot
of education around gambling harm and Kate we actually watched
a talk of yours, which in twenty twenty was empowering
(03:23):
to hear someone talk about gambling in such an honest
and raw way and also just really challenging this very
normalized society. Since twenty twenty, it has become something I'm
very passionate about, and as far as the work we
do here, it is something that part of me is like,
I can never see myself doing anything else because it
(03:43):
is just a really amazing space to work, and in
the people we work with us so incredibly strong and
brings so much to the work we.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Do doing COVID.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Then, did you with the huge increase in alcohol consumption
because of COVID, did you guys find that there was
also then a spike in gambling.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
There was a very decided spiking gambling, particularly with sports betting. Obviously,
things like the Pokey's. There was a big drop off
in people attending venues. It's actually been interesting talking to
clients since COVID where they've said, oh, twenty twenty twenty
twenty one, particularly in Melbourne, that was great. I couldn't
go to the pokies. That was the longest period I
(04:27):
had when I wasn't playing the pokies, and for a
lot of people that was actually important for them to
recognize that they could live without going to the venue.
On the flip side of that, however, we saw a
very large uptick in particularly younger men on sports betting apps.
So it was a bit of a double edged sword
in terms of the harms both reduction and increase that
(04:50):
we were seeing across a very broad spectrum of the population.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Do you find that it's more women that do the
pokies and more men that do the apps or you
just find it's the board for both.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I would definitely say with the apps we do get
a larger presentation of younger men the pokeys. I think anecdotally,
depending on who you speak to, we could say that
we have maybe seventy thirty sixty forty kind of split
male female. But yeah, I definitely say for a lot
(05:28):
of the people we speak to when it comes to
the pokys, I find that a lot of people I
speak to myself where they are women that kind of
thirties through to sixties range, particularly women who are winding
down careers entering retirement. The pokys have become something that
stands in and fills in that space. There's also a
(05:50):
very common theme for a lot of people just around
having a place where they can escape the stresses of
day to day life, and the pokeys for some people
do fill that space, and it can be a sort
of quite a big release from what's going on in
the data day for busy working parents and things like that.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, So what is the definition of a gambling addiction?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
I mean, there are different ways to define addiction. Generally,
with gambling addiction, for a lot of people, it is
when the harm for gambling is starting to impact multiple
facets of their lives. You know, the most obvious is
the financial impact, but we can also look at people
losing relationships, family breakdown. For some people, there can be
(06:36):
very serious legal and employment consequences. We have clients we've
worked with who have in some instance has gone to
the extent where they've stolen money from employers and have
ended up in prison as a result of that. So
really it's when the gambling becomes something that is all
dominating in someone's life, and for a lot of people
that sneaks up on them and it can feel very sudden.
(07:00):
There can be that steady progression from going to the
Pokey's once a month with some friends to it being
a daily ritual of multiple hours and starting to take
over for their lives.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Do they tend to always go to the same outlet
if it's Pokys?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
It's interesting. I think that does very person to person.
You will have people where they're very much this is
my venue, this is where I'm going, this is very
feel comfortable, I know the stuff, I get a free
cup of tea, which a lot we can say about
those kind of things. And then for others they will
find that they're going to different areas of town. For
whatever reason. A lot of people may feel quite shameful
(07:37):
being seen repeatedly in the same venue. For others, they
may have exclusions in place in one venue and therefore
they decide to go to a different venue. So it
does vary, but routine and ritual is important for a
large number of individuals who speak to so there is
generally some consistency in where they are going to play
the pokies.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Why is it you think we don't hear a lot
about the gambling harm here in Australia. Is it because
it's such a culture a thing, you know, like I
hear about it because of what I do. But it's
sort of something that's really I don't know, it's not
really discussed.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It is such a not funny haha, but kind of
ironic one that and Kate, I'm sure to degree. It's
this thing that is so drenched into our society and
is so heavily normalized, and yet we never want to
be properly acknowledging it. And I think you know, there
are so many different reasons for that. I mean, we
(08:35):
can look at the amount governments receive in money from
Pokey's and from venues from sports spanning advertising things like that.
I think we as a society want to see ourselves
as this fun and jove your sports loving culture, but
we're not really willing to properly investigate what that means yet,
(08:57):
particularly when it comes to gambling. I'm in my late twenties.
I have a lot of male friends and colleagues who
have over the years said that, but they couldn't imagine
watching sports without gambling. It's just the reality. This is
what they do, and it's now a kind of lifeline
for them in terms of connections to other people. It's
what they talk about, it's what they do, and the
(09:19):
idea that you could engage in watching sports or even
going down to the pub without engaging in some level
of gambling seems quite foreign. So there's the government levels,
there's the funding and the funding received from governments around that,
and then there's also the cultural element of just not
wanting to unpack something difficult, particularly when it's so normalized.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
My daughter does intelligence in America and she works for
a law firm and as part of her work, people
approach them to research thing on behalf of someone else,
and she has recently done some research into and I
used to think it was just nuts.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
You can go.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Into a roadhouse get fuel or whatever, and there are
pokeys in these states. I just assumed that they were
all connected. But these ones that are in these service
stations and things like that are actually individually owned made
by a certain person. The people can watch what's happening
(10:21):
in all the different service stations where people are punting
or gambling, and if they win, they hit a jackpot
or something, they'll shut that machine down so they never
get the win. Oh wow, but they'll take the money,
but they never get the win. So there has been
numerous lawsuits against it. But I just assumed that they're
(10:42):
all connected, but they're not. So these are individually owned
poky machines. And like she was saying, they're in areas
where it's low socio and economic areas. It's people low wages,
low incomes. They're trying to get a couple of extra
dollars to feed their family whatever. They hit a jackpop
and never get paid for it. And she was horrified
(11:06):
when she was reading what's going on. I mean, I
can't even comprehend that someone would buy and support that
as a means of an income. I just it blows
my mind. But when she was looking into it, she
just could not comprehend it. Whereas they're all linked, aren't
they to some degree in each the state?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Is that correct? Do you know, Kate?
Speaker 4 (11:27):
The individual venues, there's a couple of clubs in Canberra
that own multiple venues, so all of those might be linked,
but they're not necessarily all interlinked per state.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
But they're not individually owned. No, these are owned by individuals.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
The US regulations around the poke machines and also things
like sports betting, it they vary so wildly from our
own regulations. I think the US only introduced sports betting,
something which is just such a massive part of our
culture now relatively recently, and they've already seen massive harms
as a result of that. But it is fascinating seeing
(12:06):
how different countries manage the pokies, But I think Australia's
really beating everyone else on those ones.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So did we develop was the online gambling platforms?
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Are they Australian developed?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
They're not necessarily Australia developed a lot of the online
sports betting apps are like British companies, like their British
book making companies, but the US had heavier legislation around
them for a more extended period of time. Australia has
always had legislation or regulation around the sports betting apps,
but they have been here for longer than they have
been in the US.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So how much money does the government make from gambling?
Speaker 4 (12:47):
I think it's around twelve billion issue, it could be more.
That was maybe two years ago, yeah, a year, yeah,
and it increases each year.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
The civilian losses per capita are the largest globally, with
the bigger losers in the world when it comes to gambling,
and it's tens of billions of dollars a year that
Australians are losing in gambling. When you think of yeah,
you think how small we are.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Billion dollars Australians are losing a year to gambling.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
It jumped from twenty five billion. Oh my, the last project.
That's how much harm is happening in Australia from gambling products. Hell,
then does someone I mean, you've got your phone with
you all the time. You know, it's hard enough when
people stop drinking to try and avoid going into a
bottle shop and it being delivered and that sort of thing.
(13:43):
But you know, like your phone's with you all the time.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
How do you then stop gambling if you have a
harmful habit when your phone's with you all the time.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
There are some things that are in place now so
last year betstop, which is the National Self Exclusion Register
for online gambling and sports batting was introduced. People can
register themselves for various periods where they'll be excluded from
all registered sports betting services in Australia. That means the
services can't be setting them advertising material, it means they
(14:16):
can't open accounts. That's one thing that's in place. Tab
has a program called tab Betcare which is a similar thing,
so people can do that exclusion. For some people, they
find it useful to put blockers in place as a
service called gamban, which is a similar thing. People can't
access gambling sites then through their phone or laptop. In
(14:37):
saying that, however, these are services people have to engage
with themselves, so there has to be that internal motivation.
People have to be at the point where they are
ready to take that step, and that's not always an
easy point for people to come to.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
With any addiction.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
It's really hard, whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling. To
get to that point takes a lot of work absolutely
so then when you're doing all you're counseling and talking
with people that sort of thing and vicarious trauma can
have a real.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Impact on a person.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
How does turning point look after you as a social worker,
and how do you look after you to make sure
that you can show up every day and be the
best version of you to help your clients.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
How do you do that well?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Turning point as an organization within this area i'm in,
there are things put in place in terms of we
are forced to take breaks after we speak to people,
so there are ten minutes after every client contact that
we have that are built into our systems. But there's
a lot of flexibility in terms of being able to
take a step out of the office, go for a walk,
(15:49):
grab a colleague, debrief with them, grab a supervisor debrief
with them. It's a very jovial atmosphere. That is we're
encouraged to engage with everyone and prioritize our well being
in ourselves. If we're in if we're just exhausted, we
can't take another call. Okay, put yourself into self care,
do what you need to do. That's absolutely fine. We're
(16:11):
not being forced to push through and hit KPIs or objectives,
which is a really nice balance. And we also have
a really fantastic team of supervisors, including individual supervisors and
also group supervision, which is done on a monthly basis.
We also have team meetings with all of the counselors
so everyone can share systems, issues that need to be addressed,
(16:34):
things like that. So it's a really collaborative, supportive space
for myself personally, I'm a big advocate for people that
can of getting out of the office and just walking
around for a while. It's been really useful making sure
I have things in place that I can do every week,
So routines around meal prepping, exercisings like that that help
(16:56):
keep me balanced, ensuring that I'm not overloading my workdays,
but that i still have fun things to look forward to,
even if it's grabbing a coffee with a colleague during
the day, just breaking things up, and also just acknowledging
that we have sick leave and personally, for a reason,
take that leaf for yourself, look after yourself, prioritize your
(17:16):
own well being. I've recently come back from ten days
off so i could spend time with the family and
it was a really refreshing thing. Yeah, so those little things, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It's so great to hear that because the work you
do is so important and we need people like you
healthy and well so that you can help other people
in our society. That really do need a hand, then,
is there, and without breaking any confidentiality or anything like that,
is there one story that's really stayed with you.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
That's a really good question. I think it's maybe not
one story, but I think one theme that always stays
with me that actually I think ties it nicely to
something I was Kate, I was watching your Rethink Addiction
talk twenty twenty two when there was something you said
in that that really links in what was sort of
this theme, which is when you speak to someone on
(18:13):
the gambling lines or on the gambling web chats, the
level of shame that people are experiencing, and that stigma
can be so overwhelming and so often you'll be speaking
to people, I think, particularly with some of the blokes,
we speak to men who would not normally be letting
themselves cry or feeling emotion to this level and all
of their barriers are down and there is such a
(18:36):
level of vulnerability and being able to sit with them
in that space and hold them and then really emphasizing
the element of addiction by design, encouraging them to acknowledge
that this is not a reflection on them. They're not weak,
there's nothing wrong with them. It's not that they're unable
to make a change or just unable to stop. It's
that this is a system which has been designed to
(18:57):
keep them locked in, and there is a way they
can break three of this, and there is support for them,
but really just helping them understand that this is not
a reflection on them and they are not defined by
the gambling harm And it is something that always hits
home with me with the gambling calls and the web chats,
is just how damaging that stigma and shame is and
(19:21):
how important it is for us to help people challenge
that and help them reground themselves and acknowledge that it's
not them, it's a system and they can move past
it and they can break out of that system.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I can firsthand talk about, you know, I had an
issue with alcohol and the shame I felt around that
and to this day still feel. You know, I've actually
literally come from seeing my psychologists to come and talk
to you guys, because I've recognized it's something I have
to work through and deal with because at the end
(19:54):
of the day, it's only society that's putting those boundaries
on me. I should be feeling really proud, like you
should Kate that we've worked through things and it'll be
a work for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I have no doubt. But that's okay.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
That we should be really proud of ourselves for me
not drinking, Kate not gambling, you know, So instead of
feeling shame or being shamed, we should be celebrating our successes.
And I think that's something we need to as Australians
work on rather than shaming people for because let's face it,
(20:31):
we're open about it. There's so many people that aren't
open about it and are living, you know, these lives
where they're constantly and turmoil. And you know, you and I,
for whatever reason, have been able to deal with our
demons and get to the other side. But I think
we do need to change the dialogue around shame and
(20:52):
embarrassment because we're all just humans.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Yeah, especially in the gambling space, shame has been weaponized
by the industry and that's something I didn't understand when
I was experiencing it. I was like, why can't I
do this normally like other people? And just as you're
saying about alcohol, it's a normalized toxin. You know, gambling
(21:16):
spaces are toxic environments. And we've convinced ourselves that there's
something wrong with us if we can't engage in it
in a healthy way, Like it's just craziness when you
can peel it back and understand, these are industries that
have designed products and practices that attract and addict human beings.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
And we weren't built for that. No.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
You know, I noticed the other day that the pub
where I live opposite us, the gambling rooms are open
till four am. The rest of the pub shut down,
but the gambling rooms are open till four am. So
what does that tell you? It tells you that it's
okay to gamble. Are we're going to support you in
your habit?
Speaker 4 (22:02):
No, it tells you that that's their core business. That
is their core business. The rest of the facade. All
they care about is exploiting you financially for as long
as possible.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Oh my god, you know what. I have never thought
of it that way, And you're right, Kate. So if
you're feeling comfortable, do you mind sharing your story?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Kate? Sure. I grew up in Sydney in the late nineties.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
I turned eighteen and my boyfriend at the time was
two years older, so he had kind of entrenched gambling
habits because Sydney was all I knew and I had
no idea that I was actually growing up in the
capital of gambling harm in Australia. New South Wales has
ninety eight thousand poke machines. There's two hundred thousand in
(22:53):
the whole of Australia and News of Wells has half
of them. So wow, every single social space I went
to as a young person had gambling products, so I
wanted to spend time with him. He sat me down,
showed me how to use a poke machine and I
put twenty dollars in and one that first time. And
(23:16):
that was the worst thing that could have ever happened,
because that pathway formed in my brain of you do this,
this equals money. Then the person came and gave me
this wad of cash while I was still sitting at
the machine and said things to me like you're really
(23:36):
good at this. Wow, just that positive reinforcement and making
me think like I was lucky or I knew what
I was doing. And very soon it went from being
with him to me going before work.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
After work in my lunch break.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
My whole pay packet would go on payday sometimes within
an hour and I'd be still living at home. So
thankfully I still had food on the table and lights on.
But looking back, I could have been facing homelessness at
that point, very very quickly, because it just absolutely captured
(24:20):
my mind and my body in a way that I
had not prepared to know how to navigate. I got
taught about drugs and alcohol and smoking in school. Nobody
mentioned gambling harm. Those two words actually didn't even exist
at that time. It was just gamble responsibly, you know.
(24:40):
So that continued for about a year, and I'm watching
my friends go on trips and I had no money
to do that. I was just working week to week
and borrowing money off my siblings, off my parents to
try and get by, and slowly but surely.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Disconnecting with myself.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
And there's no doubt that these machines are built for addiction,
and they mentally hijack you. But what I didn't understand
at that time was it also hijacks your sense of hope.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So all of the hopes.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
And dreams that I once had for my life were
now no longer in my view, and all I kept
thinking about was trying to get it back or I
couldn't even put my finger on what was driving me,
But it was actually this desire to have never ever
(25:36):
sat down and ever engaged with the product. I just
wanted to go back to when my life was normal,
and that seemed so so far away. How old were
you then, Kate, I was eighteen nineteen.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
And did family members know something was wrong or you
kept it like a secret?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (25:58):
They just thought I would have spent my paypacket like
out socializing with my friends or on cloe or something
like that.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
There was no visible.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
Indication like there is with drinking or drugs, so nobody
suspected that it was gambling harm and even if they did,
they wouldn't have known what to do with that information anyway.
Then miraculously I met my husband, broke up with my boyfriend,
moved to Canberra. Thought I'd left all of that in Sydney.
(26:33):
Eighteen months into our marriage. We were twenty three. At
the time, I was expecting my second child. We were
building a home and the mother's group that I was
a part of was going to like the local child center,
and then they said, oh, look, we won't be able
(26:54):
to meet here anymore. You're going to have to find
somewhere else to meet. One of the women said, how
about we meet at the club. There's like a playground.
So we went to this playground and as soon as
I walked in the venue and I heard the machines
and felt myself just distracted by that familiar lights and sounds,
and it just kind of haunted me. I obviously didn't
(27:16):
use them that day. But one day, when I didn't
have the children with me, I thought, there's money in
the account to start building the house.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Remember that time you won.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
You know, you could just spend a little and win more,
and did it, you know, And that was it. I
went through thirty thousand dollars in a month, and that
was the first time I wanted to take my life, and.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
So it was really hard.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
And at that point I came clean to my husband
and yeah, had I not been pregnant, I wouldn't be
talking to you right now. I promise you that. And
then he said, look, look, it's just money. Don't worry
about it, like, we'll be fine, And he took my
cards off me for a week. But we had our
(28:11):
own business and he needed me to do things, you know.
I was essentially the financial controller of our family, which
was just a nightmare to navigate. And anyway, that continued
then for the next decade of me thinking all right,
you've got to handle on this, it's fine, and then
(28:34):
have a massive like binge and go through thousands and thousands,
and then I had another child and had a like
a forced period of abstinence, and then find the bills
pile up.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
The stress it had just kept.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Cycling me around and around, and because I'd never had
anyone explain it to me, I kept feeling like it
was my own personal failing. I just was dealing with
it all on my own. The first time I RNG
Lifeline back in two thousand and three, I got told.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Just don't wear shoes.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
If you don't wear shoes, you won't be able to
get into a venue, so you won't be able to gamble.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
And I was like, ah, okay, that's really not helpful.
I said, I just feel like I need a rehab,
Like if I was addicted to drugs, there would be
a rehabit I could go to and I could get support.
This woman said, no, there's no rehabs for gambling, and
if there was, they'd be for men. So that made
(29:39):
me feel like I was the only woman experiencing this
and it was just a nightmare. Then a couple of
years later, a friend of mine saw me gambling when
we were out socializing, and she confronted me and she said,
you know, I know this psychologist.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
You could go see the psychologist friend of oz.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
And I went to see this woman and she just
charged me two hundred dollar an hour and had absolutely
no insights into what I was going through.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
It just didn't help.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
So when you put your hand up for help and
it's not met with compassion, understanding you know the right supports,
you lose hope. So fast forward to twenty twelve. I
just been Christmas. Christmas is a very intense period for
(30:33):
people experiencing gambling, harm and all the guilt and everything
of wanting to make it all all right for my children.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I found myself.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
In a venue game and just didn't want to be
here anymore, didn't know how to come home, didn't know
who to talk to.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
But I was pregnant with.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
Our sixth child, and that's why I'm still here today.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
She kept me here.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Because at that point I thought everyone's better off without me.
But I was so grateful to be having her. Each
one of my children has been like just the greatest
blessing in amongst the worst hell imaginable. So my husband
(31:28):
had called like a thousand times trying to find me,
and they said, please just come home. I think that
was the moment that he actually saw how much pain
and isolation I was in. And that's something that's very
(31:50):
common amongst loved ones, trying to navigate that dynamic between
somebody who's experiencing gambling harm and them not knowing how
to navigate it. And he just finally saw my pain
clearly and said, please, we'll find someone that can help.
(32:14):
And the next day he drove me to an amazing
woman who worked for Mission Australia at the time, and
for the first time I felt seen and heard and
not judged by what I'd been through and started to
just build back pieces of me that had been lost
(32:37):
when I was eighteen.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Thank you for sharing that. I know that's tough to do.
Did you have to learn who you are? Oh? Yes?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
And did that yeah take a lot of work and effort. Yes,
And I suppose you're still on that journey.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
Hey, I feel like I know myself pretty well now,
but I remember you know you said this focus is
on self care. I mean, those two words had never
entered my vocabulary until she said to me, what do
you do for self care?
Speaker 1 (33:18):
I was like, what is that? You know?
Speaker 4 (33:21):
My whole identity was just so confused and shattered from
trying to operate under a label of am I gambling
at it?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I didn't want that label.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
I didn't feel like it resonated, but I knew I
was addicted. But I didn't understand how to wrestle with that.
And when I started showing up for myself differently and
looking at all that was at play, it was so
(33:55):
unreasonable for me to think that I could operate in
a normal state when I had just been absolutely coated
in shame for over a decade, never really been comfortable
with my humanness. You know, I had thought I've wrecked this.
(34:16):
I'm not perfect, I'm not the perfect mum, I'm not
the perfect wife. It's all ruined. Why can't I be
like the other wives and mums that I know? And
this realization that my children didn't need me to be perfect,
they needed me to model how to be human.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
They just needed your doll and just grow through the experience.
You know like that.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
My twelve year old the morning after I almost didn't
come home, said Mom, like, where were you?
Speaker 1 (34:45):
No one could find you?
Speaker 4 (34:47):
And I thought, shit, I have to tell him now
that I've been struggling all this time and I had
hidden it from everyone. And I said, look, mate, I've
just made so many mistakes.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I don't know what to do. And he goes, Mum,
everyone makes mistas and I just thought, oh my gosh,
from the mouth of a baby, of course they do.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
Why did I think that I had disqualified myself from
being worthy?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
You know, because those machines and the way it rewired
your brain made you think that you weren't worthy exactly.
And when I looked at the product and how to
being designed, I was like, oh my gosh, I used
it exactly how.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
It was designed to be used. From a user standpoint,
I am the model client absolutely, and this absolute mind
f of you know, there's all these people that can
use it properly and you can't.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
But what a lie? But are people using it properly?
That's exactly right. That's the industry lie that they spin.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
There's all these people that can do this, and there's
just these few and.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
They labeled them problem gamblers.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
That terminology weaponized that shame and made it an individual
problem instead of people having a focus on This is
a really toxic and predatory industry that is absolutely financially
devastating this nation at an alarming rate, and we've just
allowed it to be on every corner.
Apogae Production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi guys, thank you for tuning into Tennis for Nurses.
This week's episode around gambling does have some triggering conversations,
but because there was so much information disseminated by these
two remarkable women, Kat and Zen, we are going to
do a Part A and we will then be doing
a Part B because you need to hear what they
(00:31):
had to say about gambling and the concerns around gambling
in Australia. So this week will drop Part A and
next week will drop Part B. Hi, my name's beck
Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity to.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Be, so I hit it and parked it for Nellie
four years. We always have free will, we always get
to choose.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
We are autonomous.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Hi everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tennis for Nurses.
I'm actually really excited today to chat with two amazing
women who are trying to change and bring to light
the issues around gambling here in Australia. And it's a
little bit of a forgotten addiction. It doesn't get the
(01:20):
media attention that say alcohol or drugs do. However, the
impact in Australia is huge with what gambling does to families,
to people the community, and I really just wanted to
touch on this form of addiction, just to bring it
to light a little bit because there's so many people
(01:41):
that do have issues in this space and I just
felt it was important that we talk about it as well.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So good morning Zen, Good morning Kate. How are you both?
Very well? Thank you So Zen, We'll start with you. Han.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Can you give us a little bit of background on you,
what you do, how you help Turning Point and also
how you help the people that come to you guys.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
So, I am a social worker. I work as counseling
role at Turning Point. Turning Point is a Melbourne based
addiction treatment, research and education service which is founded in
nineteen ninety four. It's now part of Eastern Health and
covers quite a broad gamut of treatment modalities and programs
(02:31):
across Melbourne and the Eastern Suburbs. More particularly, we have
a variety of different services designed to support individuals who
are seeking help around gambling harm, including kind of online services, websites,
web chats and also telephone services as well.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
So your background is social work, Yeah, so you've done
all your study and what made you decide to segue
into this space.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I did my initial placement at Turning Point in twenty twenty.
I had always been interested in alcohol and drug treatment services,
as I'd studied it in my undergraduate degree as well,
and during my placement obviously we'd actually did a lot
of education around gambling harm and Kate we actually watched
a talk of yours, which in twenty twenty was empowering
(03:23):
to hear someone talk about gambling in such an honest
and raw way and also just really challenging this very
normalized society. Since twenty twenty, it has become something I'm
very passionate about, and as far as the work we
do here, it is something that part of me is like,
I can never see myself doing anything else because it
(03:43):
is just a really amazing space to work, and in
the people we work with us so incredibly strong and
brings so much to the work we.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Do doing COVID.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Then, did you with the huge increase in alcohol consumption
because of COVID, did you guys find that there was
also then a spike in gambling.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
There was a very decided spiking gambling, particularly with sports betting. Obviously,
things like the Pokey's. There was a big drop off
in people attending venues. It's actually been interesting talking to
clients since COVID where they've said, oh, twenty twenty twenty
twenty one, particularly in Melbourne, that was great. I couldn't
go to the pokies. That was the longest period I
(04:27):
had when I wasn't playing the pokies, and for a
lot of people that was actually important for them to
recognize that they could live without going to the venue.
On the flip side of that, however, we saw a
very large uptick in particularly younger men on sports betting apps.
So it was a bit of a double edged sword
in terms of the harms both reduction and increase that
(04:50):
we were seeing across a very broad spectrum of the population.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Do you find that it's more women that do the
pokies and more men that do the apps or you
just find it's the board for both.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I would definitely say with the apps we do get
a larger presentation of younger men the pokeys. I think anecdotally,
depending on who you speak to, we could say that
we have maybe seventy thirty sixty forty kind of split
male female. But yeah, I definitely say for a lot
(05:28):
of the people we speak to when it comes to
the pokys, I find that a lot of people I
speak to myself where they are women that kind of
thirties through to sixties range, particularly women who are winding
down careers entering retirement. The pokys have become something that
stands in and fills in that space. There's also a
(05:50):
very common theme for a lot of people just around
having a place where they can escape the stresses of
day to day life, and the pokeys for some people
do fill that space, and it can be a sort
of quite a big release from what's going on in
the data day for busy working parents and things like that.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, So what is the definition of a gambling addiction?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
I mean, there are different ways to define addiction. Generally,
with gambling addiction, for a lot of people, it is
when the harm for gambling is starting to impact multiple
facets of their lives. You know, the most obvious is
the financial impact, but we can also look at people
losing relationships, family breakdown. For some people, there can be
(06:36):
very serious legal and employment consequences. We have clients we've
worked with who have in some instance has gone to
the extent where they've stolen money from employers and have
ended up in prison as a result of that. So
really it's when the gambling becomes something that is all
dominating in someone's life, and for a lot of people
that sneaks up on them and it can feel very sudden.
(07:00):
There can be that steady progression from going to the
Pokey's once a month with some friends to it being
a daily ritual of multiple hours and starting to take
over for their lives.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Do they tend to always go to the same outlet
if it's Pokys?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
It's interesting. I think that does very person to person.
You will have people where they're very much this is
my venue, this is where I'm going, this is very
feel comfortable, I know the stuff, I get a free
cup of tea, which a lot we can say about
those kind of things. And then for others they will
find that they're going to different areas of town. For
whatever reason. A lot of people may feel quite shameful
(07:37):
being seen repeatedly in the same venue. For others, they
may have exclusions in place in one venue and therefore
they decide to go to a different venue. So it
does vary, but routine and ritual is important for a
large number of individuals who speak to so there is
generally some consistency in where they are going to play
the pokies.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Why is it you think we don't hear a lot
about the gambling harm here in Australia. Is it because
it's such a culture a thing, you know, like I
hear about it because of what I do. But it's
sort of something that's really I don't know, it's not
really discussed.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It is such a not funny haha, but kind of
ironic one that and Kate, I'm sure to degree. It's
this thing that is so drenched into our society and
is so heavily normalized, and yet we never want to
be properly acknowledging it. And I think you know, there
are so many different reasons for that. I mean, we
(08:35):
can look at the amount governments receive in money from
Pokey's and from venues from sports spanning advertising things like that.
I think we as a society want to see ourselves
as this fun and jove your sports loving culture, but
we're not really willing to properly investigate what that means yet,
(08:57):
particularly when it comes to gambling. I'm in my late twenties.
I have a lot of male friends and colleagues who
have over the years said that, but they couldn't imagine
watching sports without gambling. It's just the reality. This is
what they do, and it's now a kind of lifeline
for them in terms of connections to other people. It's
what they talk about, it's what they do, and the
(09:19):
idea that you could engage in watching sports or even
going down to the pub without engaging in some level
of gambling seems quite foreign. So there's the government levels,
there's the funding and the funding received from governments around that,
and then there's also the cultural element of just not
wanting to unpack something difficult, particularly when it's so normalized.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
My daughter does intelligence in America and she works for
a law firm and as part of her work, people
approach them to research thing on behalf of someone else,
and she has recently done some research into and I
used to think it was just nuts.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
You can go.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Into a roadhouse get fuel or whatever, and there are
pokeys in these states. I just assumed that they were
all connected. But these ones that are in these service
stations and things like that are actually individually owned made
by a certain person. The people can watch what's happening
(10:21):
in all the different service stations where people are punting
or gambling, and if they win, they hit a jackpot
or something, they'll shut that machine down so they never
get the win. Oh wow, but they'll take the money,
but they never get the win. So there has been
numerous lawsuits against it. But I just assumed that they're
(10:42):
all connected, but they're not. So these are individually owned
poky machines. And like she was saying, they're in areas
where it's low socio and economic areas. It's people low wages,
low incomes. They're trying to get a couple of extra
dollars to feed their family whatever. They hit a jackpop
and never get paid for it. And she was horrified
(11:06):
when she was reading what's going on. I mean, I
can't even comprehend that someone would buy and support that
as a means of an income. I just it blows
my mind. But when she was looking into it, she
just could not comprehend it. Whereas they're all linked, aren't
they to some degree in each the state?
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Is that correct? Do you know, Kate?
Speaker 4 (11:27):
The individual venues, there's a couple of clubs in Canberra
that own multiple venues, so all of those might be linked,
but they're not necessarily all interlinked per state.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
But they're not individually owned. No, these are owned by individuals.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
The US regulations around the poke machines and also things
like sports betting, it they vary so wildly from our
own regulations. I think the US only introduced sports betting,
something which is just such a massive part of our
culture now relatively recently, and they've already seen massive harms
as a result of that. But it is fascinating seeing
(12:06):
how different countries manage the pokies, But I think Australia's
really beating everyone else on those ones.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So did we develop was the online gambling platforms?
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Are they Australian developed?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
They're not necessarily Australia developed a lot of the online
sports betting apps are like British companies, like their British
book making companies, but the US had heavier legislation around
them for a more extended period of time. Australia has
always had legislation or regulation around the sports betting apps,
but they have been here for longer than they have
been in the US.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
So how much money does the government make from gambling?
Speaker 4 (12:47):
I think it's around twelve billion issue, it could be more.
That was maybe two years ago, yeah, a year, yeah,
and it increases each year.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
The civilian losses per capita are the largest globally, with
the bigger losers in the world when it comes to gambling,
and it's tens of billions of dollars a year that
Australians are losing in gambling. When you think of yeah,
you think how small we are.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Billion dollars Australians are losing a year to gambling.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
It jumped from twenty five billion. Oh my, the last project.
That's how much harm is happening in Australia from gambling products. Hell,
then does someone I mean, you've got your phone with
you all the time. You know, it's hard enough when
people stop drinking to try and avoid going into a
bottle shop and it being delivered and that sort of thing.
(13:43):
But you know, like your phone's with you all the time.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
How do you then stop gambling if you have a
harmful habit when your phone's with you all the time.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
There are some things that are in place now so
last year betstop, which is the National Self Exclusion Register
for online gambling and sports batting was introduced. People can
register themselves for various periods where they'll be excluded from
all registered sports betting services in Australia. That means the
services can't be setting them advertising material, it means they
(14:16):
can't open accounts. That's one thing that's in place. Tab
has a program called tab Betcare which is a similar thing,
so people can do that exclusion. For some people, they
find it useful to put blockers in place as a
service called gamban, which is a similar thing. People can't
access gambling sites then through their phone or laptop. In
(14:37):
saying that, however, these are services people have to engage
with themselves, so there has to be that internal motivation.
People have to be at the point where they are
ready to take that step, and that's not always an
easy point for people to come to.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
With any addiction.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
It's really hard, whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling. To
get to that point takes a lot of work absolutely
so then when you're doing all you're counseling and talking
with people that sort of thing and vicarious trauma can
have a real.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Impact on a person.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
How does turning point look after you as a social worker,
and how do you look after you to make sure
that you can show up every day and be the
best version of you to help your clients.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
How do you do that well?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Turning point as an organization within this area i'm in,
there are things put in place in terms of we
are forced to take breaks after we speak to people,
so there are ten minutes after every client contact that
we have that are built into our systems. But there's
a lot of flexibility in terms of being able to
take a step out of the office, go for a walk,
(15:49):
grab a colleague, debrief with them, grab a supervisor debrief
with them. It's a very jovial atmosphere. That is we're
encouraged to engage with everyone and prioritize our well being
in ourselves. If we're in if we're just exhausted, we
can't take another call. Okay, put yourself into self care,
do what you need to do. That's absolutely fine. We're
(16:11):
not being forced to push through and hit KPIs or objectives,
which is a really nice balance. And we also have
a really fantastic team of supervisors, including individual supervisors and
also group supervision, which is done on a monthly basis.
We also have team meetings with all of the counselors
so everyone can share systems, issues that need to be addressed,
(16:34):
things like that. So it's a really collaborative, supportive space
for myself personally, I'm a big advocate for people that
can of getting out of the office and just walking
around for a while. It's been really useful making sure
I have things in place that I can do every week,
So routines around meal prepping, exercisings like that that help
(16:56):
keep me balanced, ensuring that I'm not overloading my workdays,
but that i still have fun things to look forward to,
even if it's grabbing a coffee with a colleague during
the day, just breaking things up, and also just acknowledging
that we have sick leave and personally, for a reason,
take that leaf for yourself, look after yourself, prioritize your
(17:16):
own well being. I've recently come back from ten days
off so i could spend time with the family and
it was a really refreshing thing. Yeah, so those little things, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It's so great to hear that because the work you
do is so important and we need people like you
healthy and well so that you can help other people
in our society. That really do need a hand, then,
is there, and without breaking any confidentiality or anything like that,
is there one story that's really stayed with you.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
That's a really good question. I think it's maybe not
one story, but I think one theme that always stays
with me that actually I think ties it nicely to
something I was Kate, I was watching your Rethink Addiction
talk twenty twenty two when there was something you said
in that that really links in what was sort of
this theme, which is when you speak to someone on
(18:13):
the gambling lines or on the gambling web chats, the
level of shame that people are experiencing, and that stigma
can be so overwhelming and so often you'll be speaking
to people, I think, particularly with some of the blokes,
we speak to men who would not normally be letting
themselves cry or feeling emotion to this level and all
of their barriers are down and there is such a
(18:36):
level of vulnerability and being able to sit with them
in that space and hold them and then really emphasizing
the element of addiction by design, encouraging them to acknowledge
that this is not a reflection on them. They're not weak,
there's nothing wrong with them. It's not that they're unable
to make a change or just unable to stop. It's
that this is a system which has been designed to
(18:57):
keep them locked in, and there is a way they
can break three of this, and there is support for them,
but really just helping them understand that this is not
a reflection on them and they are not defined by
the gambling harm And it is something that always hits
home with me with the gambling calls and the web chats,
is just how damaging that stigma and shame is and
(19:21):
how important it is for us to help people challenge
that and help them reground themselves and acknowledge that it's
not them, it's a system and they can move past
it and they can break out of that system.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I can firsthand talk about, you know, I had an
issue with alcohol and the shame I felt around that
and to this day still feel. You know, I've actually
literally come from seeing my psychologists to come and talk
to you guys, because I've recognized it's something I have
to work through and deal with because at the end
(19:54):
of the day, it's only society that's putting those boundaries
on me. I should be feeling really proud, like you
should Kate that we've worked through things and it'll be
a work for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I have no doubt. But that's okay.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
That we should be really proud of ourselves for me
not drinking, Kate not gambling, you know, So instead of
feeling shame or being shamed, we should be celebrating our successes.
And I think that's something we need to as Australians
work on rather than shaming people for because let's face it,
(20:31):
we're open about it. There's so many people that aren't
open about it and are living, you know, these lives
where they're constantly and turmoil. And you know, you and I,
for whatever reason, have been able to deal with our
demons and get to the other side. But I think
we do need to change the dialogue around shame and
(20:52):
embarrassment because we're all just humans.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Yeah, especially in the gambling space, shame has been weaponized
by the industry and that's something I didn't understand when
I was experiencing it. I was like, why can't I
do this normally like other people? And just as you're
saying about alcohol, it's a normalized toxin. You know, gambling
(21:16):
spaces are toxic environments. And we've convinced ourselves that there's
something wrong with us if we can't engage in it
in a healthy way, Like it's just craziness when you
can peel it back and understand, these are industries that
have designed products and practices that attract and addict human beings.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
And we weren't built for that. No.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
You know, I noticed the other day that the pub
where I live opposite us, the gambling rooms are open
till four am. The rest of the pub shut down,
but the gambling rooms are open till four am. So
what does that tell you? It tells you that it's
okay to gamble. Are we're going to support you in
your habit?
Speaker 4 (22:02):
No, it tells you that that's their core business. That
is their core business. The rest of the facade. All
they care about is exploiting you financially for as long
as possible.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Oh my god, you know what. I have never thought
of it that way, And you're right, Kate. So if
you're feeling comfortable, do you mind sharing your story?
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Kate? Sure. I grew up in Sydney in the late nineties.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
I turned eighteen and my boyfriend at the time was
two years older, so he had kind of entrenched gambling
habits because Sydney was all I knew and I had
no idea that I was actually growing up in the
capital of gambling harm in Australia. New South Wales has
ninety eight thousand poke machines. There's two hundred thousand in
(22:53):
the whole of Australia and News of Wells has half
of them. So wow, every single social space I went
to as a young person had gambling products, so I
wanted to spend time with him. He sat me down,
showed me how to use a poke machine and I
put twenty dollars in and one that first time. And
(23:16):
that was the worst thing that could have ever happened,
because that pathway formed in my brain of you do this,
this equals money. Then the person came and gave me
this wad of cash while I was still sitting at
the machine and said things to me like you're really
(23:36):
good at this. Wow, just that positive reinforcement and making
me think like I was lucky or I knew what
I was doing. And very soon it went from being
with him to me going before work.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
After work in my lunch break.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
My whole pay packet would go on payday sometimes within
an hour and I'd be still living at home. So
thankfully I still had food on the table and lights on.
But looking back, I could have been facing homelessness at
that point, very very quickly, because it just absolutely captured
(24:20):
my mind and my body in a way that I
had not prepared to know how to navigate. I got
taught about drugs and alcohol and smoking in school. Nobody
mentioned gambling harm. Those two words actually didn't even exist
at that time. It was just gamble responsibly, you know.
(24:40):
So that continued for about a year, and I'm watching
my friends go on trips and I had no money
to do that. I was just working week to week
and borrowing money off my siblings, off my parents to
try and get by, and slowly but surely.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Disconnecting with myself.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
And there's no doubt that these machines are built for addiction,
and they mentally hijack you. But what I didn't understand
at that time was it also hijacks your sense of hope.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So all of the hopes.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
And dreams that I once had for my life were
now no longer in my view, and all I kept
thinking about was trying to get it back or I
couldn't even put my finger on what was driving me,
But it was actually this desire to have never ever
(25:36):
sat down and ever engaged with the product. I just
wanted to go back to when my life was normal,
and that seemed so so far away. How old were
you then, Kate, I was eighteen nineteen.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
And did family members know something was wrong or you
kept it like a secret?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (25:58):
They just thought I would have spent my paypacket like
out socializing with my friends or on cloe or something
like that.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
There was no visible.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
Indication like there is with drinking or drugs, so nobody
suspected that it was gambling harm and even if they did,
they wouldn't have known what to do with that information anyway.
Then miraculously I met my husband, broke up with my boyfriend,
moved to Canberra. Thought I'd left all of that in Sydney.
(26:33):
Eighteen months into our marriage. We were twenty three. At
the time, I was expecting my second child. We were
building a home and the mother's group that I was
a part of was going to like the local child center,
and then they said, oh, look, we won't be able
(26:54):
to meet here anymore. You're going to have to find
somewhere else to meet. One of the women said, how
about we meet at the club. There's like a playground.
So we went to this playground and as soon as
I walked in the venue and I heard the machines
and felt myself just distracted by that familiar lights and sounds,
and it just kind of haunted me. I obviously didn't
(27:16):
use them that day. But one day, when I didn't
have the children with me, I thought, there's money in
the account to start building the house.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Remember that time you won.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
You know, you could just spend a little and win more,
and did it, you know, And that was it. I
went through thirty thousand dollars in a month, and that
was the first time I wanted to take my life, and.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
So it was really hard.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
And at that point I came clean to my husband
and yeah, had I not been pregnant, I wouldn't be
talking to you right now. I promise you that. And
then he said, look, look, it's just money. Don't worry
about it, like, we'll be fine, And he took my
cards off me for a week. But we had our
(28:11):
own business and he needed me to do things, you know.
I was essentially the financial controller of our family, which
was just a nightmare to navigate. And anyway, that continued
then for the next decade of me thinking all right,
you've got to handle on this, it's fine, and then
(28:34):
have a massive like binge and go through thousands and thousands,
and then I had another child and had a like
a forced period of abstinence, and then find the bills
pile up.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
The stress it had just kept.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Cycling me around and around, and because I'd never had
anyone explain it to me, I kept feeling like it
was my own personal failing. I just was dealing with
it all on my own. The first time I RNG
Lifeline back in two thousand and three, I got told.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Just don't wear shoes.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
If you don't wear shoes, you won't be able to
get into a venue, so you won't be able to gamble.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
And I was like, ah, okay, that's really not helpful.
I said, I just feel like I need a rehab,
Like if I was addicted to drugs, there would be
a rehabit I could go to and I could get support.
This woman said, no, there's no rehabs for gambling, and
if there was, they'd be for men. So that made
(29:39):
me feel like I was the only woman experiencing this
and it was just a nightmare. Then a couple of
years later, a friend of mine saw me gambling when
we were out socializing, and she confronted me and she said,
you know, I know this psychologist.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
You could go see the psychologist friend of oz.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
And I went to see this woman and she just
charged me two hundred dollar an hour and had absolutely
no insights into what I was going through.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
It just didn't help.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
So when you put your hand up for help and
it's not met with compassion, understanding you know the right supports,
you lose hope. So fast forward to twenty twelve. I
just been Christmas. Christmas is a very intense period for
(30:33):
people experiencing gambling, harm and all the guilt and everything
of wanting to make it all all right for my children.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I found myself.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
In a venue game and just didn't want to be
here anymore, didn't know how to come home, didn't know
who to talk to.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
But I was pregnant with.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
Our sixth child, and that's why I'm still here today.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
She kept me here.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Because at that point I thought everyone's better off without me.
But I was so grateful to be having her. Each
one of my children has been like just the greatest
blessing in amongst the worst hell imaginable. So my husband
(31:28):
had called like a thousand times trying to find me,
and they said, please just come home. I think that
was the moment that he actually saw how much pain
and isolation I was in. And that's something that's very
(31:50):
common amongst loved ones, trying to navigate that dynamic between
somebody who's experiencing gambling harm and them not knowing how
to navigate it. And he just finally saw my pain
clearly and said, please, we'll find someone that can help.
(32:14):
And the next day he drove me to an amazing
woman who worked for Mission Australia at the time, and
for the first time I felt seen and heard and
not judged by what I'd been through and started to
just build back pieces of me that had been lost
(32:37):
when I was eighteen.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Thank you for sharing that. I know that's tough to do.
Did you have to learn who you are? Oh? Yes?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
And did that yeah take a lot of work and effort. Yes,
And I suppose you're still on that journey.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
Hey, I feel like I know myself pretty well now,
but I remember you know you said this focus is
on self care. I mean, those two words had never
entered my vocabulary until she said to me, what do
you do for self care?
Speaker 1 (33:18):
I was like, what is that? You know?
Speaker 4 (33:21):
My whole identity was just so confused and shattered from
trying to operate under a label of am I gambling
at it?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I didn't want that label.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
I didn't feel like it resonated, but I knew I
was addicted. But I didn't understand how to wrestle with that.
And when I started showing up for myself differently and
looking at all that was at play, it was so
(33:55):
unreasonable for me to think that I could operate in
a normal state when I had just been absolutely coated
in shame for over a decade, never really been comfortable
with my humanness. You know, I had thought I've wrecked this.
(34:16):
I'm not perfect, I'm not the perfect mum, I'm not
the perfect wife. It's all ruined. Why can't I be
like the other wives and mums that I know? And
this realization that my children didn't need me to be perfect,
they needed me to model how to be human.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
They just needed your doll and just grow through the experience.
You know like that.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
My twelve year old the morning after I almost didn't
come home, said Mom, like, where were you?
Speaker 1 (34:45):
No one could find you?
Speaker 4 (34:47):
And I thought, shit, I have to tell him now
that I've been struggling all this time and I had
hidden it from everyone. And I said, look, mate, I've
just made so many mistakes.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I don't know what to do. And he goes, Mum,
everyone makes mistas and I just thought, oh my gosh,
from the mouth of a baby, of course they do.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
Why did I think that I had disqualified myself from
being worthy?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
You know, because those machines and the way it rewired
your brain made you think that you weren't worthy exactly.
And when I looked at the product and how to
being designed, I was like, oh my gosh, I used
it exactly how.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
It was designed to be used. From a user standpoint,
I am the model client absolutely, and this absolute mind
f of you know, there's all these people that can
use it properly and you can't.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
But what a lie? But are people using it properly?
That's exactly right. That's the industry lie that they spin.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
There's all these people that can do this, and there's
just these few and.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
They labeled them problem gamblers.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
That terminology weaponized that shame and made it an individual
problem instead of people having a focus on This is
a really toxic and predatory industry that is absolutely financially
devastating this nation at an alarming rate, and we've just
allowed it to be on every corner.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.