March 9, 2025 • 28 mins
Today we continue our discussion around gambling harm here is Australia.
Both Zen and Kate chat about their knowledge and personal experience around gambling harm and the impact it is having on Australians.
Gambling harm is continually brushed under the carpet as an addiction. It’s easy money for the government and I can only assume that’s why it isn’t addressed more urgently, however, the impact it is having on families and communities cannot be diminished.
If you are worried about gambling harm, you can reach out to the following organisations:
Turning Point: www.turning point.org.au.
Gamblers Help Line:
Gambling Help Online: www.gamblinghelponline.org.au
If you require immediate support please contact:
Lifeline 13 11 14 or call 000.
For more support services visit the Turning Point & Gambling Help Online websites below:
www.turningpoint.org.au
www.gamblinghelponline.org.au
Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/tendernessnurses
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appoche production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi everyone, thanks for tuning back into Tennis for Nurses.
This week is Part B of our Gambling Conversation with
turning point to Australia and where I had the absolute
privilege of talking to Zen who's a social worker, and Kate,
who has live life experience and is an advocate around
gambling harm in Australia. The conversation was too big just
(00:31):
to put in one episode, so I hope you get
something out of Part B. I know I learned so
much listening and talking to these amazing women, so enjoy
just a little reminder that there may be some triggering
conversations during this podcast, but honestly it's absolutely worth listening to.
(00:51):
And guys, if you haven't listened to Part A of
this conversation, it was last week's episode, so check out
Tennis for Nurses and just make sure you listen to
Part A of our Conversation around gambling.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hi, my name's Beck Goodbine, and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
to be, so I hit it and parked it for
nearly four years. We always have free will, we always
get to choose.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
We are autonomous.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I am in complete and utter or of you, Kate,
and hand on heart from someone who's had addiction issues,
I truly mean that I am very aware with my
personality of pokey machines. I don't have any apps on
my phone, but I am very particular about those venues,
(01:48):
mainly because I know how easy it is to get
sucked into things and I don't want to go down
that pathway. And a really interesting thing last year, I
had to go to a conference and the only accommodation
I could get in this down the Gold Coast was
actually at the casino. It was a three day conference.
I was there for three nights or two nights, and
(02:08):
I ended up leaving the conference early because my anxiety
and I couldn't work out why I was so anxious,
you know, because I was with people. I knew it
was a great conference. And then the penny dropped. It
was staying at the casino. It was the energy that
was in the casino. It was walking past all the
(02:31):
noises and the and I don't have an issue with
gambling per se, but I just think it was the
energy of the place. It was so low and there
were people there that just couldn't afford to be there,
and there they were. And in the end, I was like,
the conference is again this year, and it's like, there's
no way on earth I am staying at that casino again.
(02:53):
And I thought, isn't it interesting that I was so
aware of it and could recognize the sensation of staying
there and what it did to me. And I'm assuming, Kate,
you would never go into a casino. I've had to
give trainings to staff and things like that in venues
with the work that I do as an advocate. It
(03:15):
doesn't hold power over me now because I've liberated myself
from the shame that was never mine to bear.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
This shame belongs on this industry.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
This shame belongs on governments and regulatory bodies that have
failed to put consumer protections front and center.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Period.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
We shouldn't have thirty two billion dollars being lost out
of our nation. It's a disgrace that that is happening
under any prime minister's watch. And to point fingers and
blame Albany, sorry, You've got to point the fingers all
the way back to the fifties where this started and
(03:57):
has never been rained in I just.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Can't even comprehend thirty two billion.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's next level.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
It is for twenty seven million people, twenty seven million Australia,
twenty seven million people, but thirty two billion dollars. Yeah,
holy shit.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
When you put it that way, that blows my mind away.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
And though the types of statistics and facts which it
is really important, like through turning point, We've got the
Gambling Help Online website which has forums, and they are
anonymous forums where people can connect with others, both loved
ones and people who are gambling, who are wanting to
make a change, like and a lot of it is
just them learning these facts and going, oh my god. One,
(04:47):
I'm not the only person going through this, or I'm
not the only affected family member or loved one, and
two I'm caught up in all of this with other people.
I'm not on my own. I can break these things down.
But being empowered with the knowledge, like the amount of
just articles and information we're constantly putting onto the Gambling
Help Online website, which is like kind of really basic,
(05:09):
like these are the statistics. This is not on you,
this is not about you, this is what is happening,
this is the reality. Here are the pragmatic changes you
can make. Here are the services you can access, but
it is important that you have that bigger picture so
you can feel, as you said, Kate, empowered, So the
individuals can shed this shame, which yeah, it's not theirs
to have. They are people who have been caught up
(05:31):
in something which is insidious and so much bigger than
we ever properly give credence to.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
So then if someone rings you up and they're at
the end of their tether, like it sounded like Kate was,
what are the steps you advise?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
I think as a counselor the first thing is actually
sitting with someone in that space and acknowledging that just
the level of stress, that sense of powerlessness, and then
trying to work out what for them they can tangibly
put in place and what do they need in that moment,
and then moving forward. Depending on the state someone lives in,
each state has different services and different things that can
(06:09):
be put in place. Every state and territory, individuals and
affected loved ones can all access gambling counseling and financial counseling.
So if we're talking to someone on the Gambler's Helpline
for Victoria, or Tasmania, we can do a facilitated referral
through to their local gambling counseling service and also get
(06:30):
them linked with a financial counselor that way we can
assist them with getting to betstop or getting in contact
with the state's relevant self exclusion services for the actual venues.
When people come through on web chats, so that's anyone
from the entire country, we can do those facilitated referrals
(06:52):
again through to their local services so that the owners
is on the service to contact the person, which takes
a bit of the pressure off that person going, oh,
I have to wait until nine am so I can
call this service. No, the service has my information, they
can reach out to me. I can get this support
and really just talking people through what's available and also
(07:12):
if someone's on the gambling help online website, what kind
of resources can be useful for managing urgers, Linking in
with the forum, getting connected with other people so they're
feeling a bit less alone, and also at times having
conversations with them about like who knows what's going on?
Who do you feel comfortable having this conversation within your
day to day life, and how can we help you
(07:34):
get there. Do you need to write a little script
about how you're going to tell a partner or a child.
You know, let's workshop some of those things. Just getting
the support, but the pragmatic, real life things that people
have to do just as important.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I know it was very important, and Kate, it resounded
with me when you spoke with your twelve year old.
I have spoken to both my kids and I wasn't
a fall down drunk or any of that sort of stuff,
but I did ask my kids if my drinking impact
to them in some way. I think my words have
I stuffed you up? And you know what that's going
(08:12):
to know? We are really proud of you. And there's
something I love with this younger generation and people who
pooh or whatever, but this younger generation are all over
empathy and caring, acceptance, and you know, you guys have
got it nailed. It's my generation that are the ones
that blame, shame, embarrassed, whereas this younger generation are so
(08:37):
wonderful at being that little bit insightful and going, yeah,
you're okay.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I think I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Okay, let's talk about it. And I think it's lovely
what your son said. Kate and I have to also acknowledge,
you must have a really beautiful husband.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Yeah, just had twenty five years married and look, it's
a miracle that we survived in and many marriages don't.
And that's often because people are just operating out of
their own sense of pain and aren't able to see
(09:11):
the pain of the other person clearly enough. And that's
completely valid, you know, because you don't know what you
don't know. And it's not about assigning blame. It's about going, Okay,
I did things that I wish I could have changed.
He did things he wished he could have changed, and
we both decided let's move forward together and not keep
(09:34):
throwing our past in each other's faces. And as far
as total transparency with the children, having that open dialogue
always available if there's anything that they want to talk
to me about or feel an impact from. But the
proud of the work that I've done in this space,
(09:54):
and it's given them a knowledge base in which to
operate in the world with clear understanding of the way
that it's designed to entrap people. So they not only
know it for themselves, but they're looking out for their
mates and making sure that none of their friends full
(10:16):
victim to this industry because it's just waiting.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Kate.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I bet you've got really kind, insightful kids. They're pretty
great because you've been honest with them. And I think
that in itself is a gift you've given your.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Kids, absolutely, and to the people they know. I mean,
it makes such a big difference to their friends knowing
that they have people they can be open with and
they use that empathy and support and understanding. So it's
a gift not just to your children, but to the
people in their lives as well. There are so many
ripple effects.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Absolutely, that's so true. Hum what is the work you're doing.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Now, Kate.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Well, I've been a national advocate for gambling reform for
the last day. I can't believe how long it is
taking to get traction, to get movement, to get all
this done. It's absolutely despicable. But I am not allowing
this to keep going without a fight. And I think
(11:24):
never in this country has there been a greater community
sense of we've had enough, we've had enough, and it's
up to the politicians now to listen to their communities
and actually take action on this industry. Whereas I think
in previous decades there just wasn't that community knowledge and
(11:46):
understanding or pressure to create reform, so politicians felt like
too vulnerable to put in place what needed to be
put in place. So I think we're approaching a time
where we hopefully will see all this hard work of
educating the community. You know, I've spoken in schools, workplaces, universities,
(12:09):
and it's so quick to be able to open people's
eyes up to the reality of the environment that they're
living in. But if you don't shine that light on
it in a way that's helping them to feel empowered
to create change, then we just accept the status quo.
It's amazing how quickly people become advocates if they receive
(12:33):
the right information.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I mean, those numbers speak volumes, but how many people
do they think are impacted by gambling harm?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Firsthand?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I'm not talking families or are there any statistics around
the number of people that actually believe do have concerns
around gambling.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Gambling harm is a spectrum.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Now, we don't talk about it like there's just people
you know at this point end because it's all a
grooming process of normalizing it and accessing it, so accessibility.
Time spent engaging with the products equals harm, either in
(13:16):
the short term or the long term, because it's still
training your brain even if you don't engage with it
for another decade. Then you lose a loved one and
you go, oh, I'm going to find myself in this
safe environment and get exploited down the track.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Would you agree, Zent?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Absolutely? And I also think we have your emerging concerns
now of younger people and in our purchases or like
loot boxes in games, which are conditioning those neural pathways
from such a young age and really priming very young
children's brains.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
What's a loot box?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
A loot box in games? You can win a loot
box which is basically just.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
A kind of a randomized prize.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Yeah, a randomized prize in a game. And it's that
same pattern of winning and the endorphin rush and the
expectation that's been created for children and young people that
primes their brains for gambling as they grow up. And
we're seeing those emergent concerns now, and we hold the
(14:26):
gambler's youth line here. We do get young people who
are calling through with these concerns, and it's this I
was playing video games as a kid and it went
like this, and it's like, okay, well where do we
start from. How young are people being targeted?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So these apps that are on phones and me iPads whatever,
they're playing a game and then they win a prize
that might not be monetry, but they might get five
more gos or something like that that's.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
A loop box.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, or the win a skin for a game or something. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
That then starts altering their brain, priming them, grooming them
for gambling down the track.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Oh my god, because it's eliciting the same neurological response
that winning a free spin on the pokies or having
a jackpot on the pokies does. It's the same neural
pathways that are being targeted through these things, and it
is damaging. It is problematic, and it's becoming more common.
More research is being done into it. Now we have
(15:29):
more of an understanding that there are these risks and
exposures from a very young age for young people.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
The gambling companies have very much got children and women
in their sites. So the merging of gambling and gaming
has happened.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
It's here.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
So part of the talks I give each year is
to occupational therapists in university, one of the lecturers gets
me to come in to help them to understand how
to advocate for their clients, especially neurodiverse children who once
accessed gaming their social connection or they're safe place. They're
(16:08):
now screaming at their parents to put more money on
their steam to keep playing games, and it's just horrific.
So if they're not prepared to know that that's gambling harm,
just because it's in a game, it doesn't mean it's
not gambling harm. It's the same companies are targeting an
(16:30):
already addicted cohort for want of a better term, in
the exact same way and financially exploiting them.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Knock me over with a feather.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I had no idea, and I'm pretty up to date
with things, so therefore, if I have no idea, I
can tell you the majority of Australians would have no idea.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
The co design of the program that's going into schools
in the Act this year, it's called Getting Played. And
when I was approached to help them with that, I said,
I'm not interested in something that's just going to feel.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
The place of an education program.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
If this education program doesn't in fact inform children about
what they're engaging with, because it's not about making people
who do gamble feel dumb or stupid about being exploited.
It's about highlighting the industry and how it is training
them and grooming them for addiction so that they can
(17:32):
then make empowered choices about their environment.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
That sounds really, really interesting, Kate. It's so important that
we have these conversations with younger people, and we are
treating younger people as intelligent individuals in their own right
who need to be aware and fully understand what is
happening and the realities of these situations.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
It's just not okay that they're expected to know how
to navigate that. I mean, I thought I was an
adult at eighteen and had no idea.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
But it doesn't discriminate.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
It doesn't matter if you are a child, it doesn't
matter if you're in your eighties. You are still equally
as vulnerable to being preyed upon.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
It. That's the reality we think about some of that
language people use where they're like, I never thought this
could happen to me because of X, and it's like, well,
and again it comes back to kind of unpacking and
shedding that shame. It's like it's not a reflection on you.
You actually could not have done anything differently right now,
this is the industry, this is how it works. You
(18:34):
are still an intelligent, important individual. Now it's about moving
forward and out of this. But it's not a reflection
on you.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, do you think it's everywhere? Everywhere? What hope do
some people have?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
People can make changes, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
But when you start looking at it through the correct lens,
when you start to see it like the gross toxic
space that it is, you know, changing your relationship with alcohol,
when you go, okay, this is a toxic that I'm
trying to ingest and pretend and that my body's okay
with it. You know, if somebody finds out in their
thirties that they're gluten intolerant, no one walks around going,
(19:11):
oh my gosh, I can't believe. I can't you know,
I'm such a bad human that I can't have gluten anymore.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
You accept it.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
You realize that that's a choice you are making for
your own well being. If you choose to eat it,
you're going to feel the effects of it, and it's
not going to be okay. So why is there this
difference between making an empowered choice about alcohol consumption or
making an empowered choice about using gambling or not. You know,
(19:40):
it's all about perspective and empowerment rather than saying you
can't do this anymore, like no one can get shamed
into changing, no period.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
But it's just so insidious from what you got, like
how you're describing it's so insidious.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
It is insidious. And that's why we're a twenty four
hour service. And I've spoken to people quite late into
the evening and they've been like, ohla, glad you were there.
I'm glad someone was there because for a lot of people,
particularly early doors, when they're trying to readjust and they're
trying to work through and begin to understand what they're
(20:15):
doing in terms of their gambling, just having someone there
they can talk to in those moments. And we have
conversations with people where it's like, Okay, you're driving home,
you can't avoid the Pokey's call us call us when
you get into the car. Or do you have a
friend that you can organize to speak to on these
days so that gradually the mindset can shift and the
(20:38):
focus can shift. And but there's work early doors in
making these changes. I just wish that people gave themselves
the grace to do that. And that's one of the
big things I always talk about with people, is like,
give yourself the grace to do this and to call
us to reach out, to do whatever you need to
(20:59):
do in these moments. Whatever you have to do to
get through this is fine. It's for you. It's for
your benefit.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Not having an expectation of perfection.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Yeah, you know, just allow yourself to be human and
realize it took twenty years to condition you into a state.
You have to give your time, your body time to
adjust and don't let you know one day spo you know,
spiral or have more power than it should. Just refocus
(21:30):
and go, okay, what are my goals moving forward?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Yeah? Absolutely, And there are those days that are just
more difficult. You know, we have people who are still
getting in contact with us, either on the online forums
on gambling help on the web, chats on the phone lines,
and they'll be like, I haven't gambled in ten years,
but today I just need to check in. And it's like, great,
good on you. That is amazing. And sometimes those conversations
(21:56):
and conversations I end up just going somewhere completely tangential
because they really just needed a distraction and the support
in that moment. And it's like, but this is still
one because all how insideful, some days I'm more difficult.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
You're acknowledging that and the fact that you guys are
there for them to turn to someone that isn't going
to shame them, is open to the conversation, understands that,
you know, they just need to chat.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
How good's that?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah? It is. I think it's got Every state and
territory has their services, and the various states and territories
have the various services for affected loved ones as well.
And it's always just particularly with those online spaces we
have because they are anonymous, is just making sure people
can break down the earlier barriers and really forge that
connection early on. And sometimes people need to have those
(22:42):
conversations like on the forum or viral web chat first
where they're saying everything but there's no name or anything
to it. They can be really anonymous and having that
space allows them to build up to speak to someone
on the phone, and then they speak to someone on
a phone a few times, and then they can see
the counselor and they may not have stopped gambling yet,
but they just needed to go through those little steps
(23:03):
and feel comfortable having those conversations and feel held and
feel heard and supported, and then they can see someone
face to face and they can start to work through
how do I acknowledge this my family? What does that
look like? But again giving themselves the grace to go
through that process and recognize it's not always linear. And
I wish as a society we were more patient with
(23:25):
people in that way.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Then if someone is struggling with gambling harm, how do
they get in touch with turning point?
Speaker 3 (23:36):
So for every state and territory, if they are wanting
to speak to someone over the phone, so a gambling
councilor twenty four hours a day for themselves or for
someone else one eight hundred eight five eight eight five
eight that's Gambler's Help line and that's every state of territory,
(23:57):
twenty four hours for everyone. If you know someone's maybe
not ready to speak to someone over the phone, or
having a phone calls not con convenient at that time,
they can speak to us via web chat through Gambling
Help Online, and they can speak to your council twenty
four to seven via web chat anonymously. Through there, they
(24:17):
can access our online forums, so have that peer connection,
and they can also access all of the information we
have so psychoeducation around how to recognize gambling harm, what
it means for them, how to manage urgers to gamble,
things like that.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
So, yeah, and Kate, if we as a community want
to see change in this space, what can we do?
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Book a room and get me to come and speak
to your community. It's so important to educate your workplaces,
your schools, your universities, your community groups so that they can,
as I said, make empowered choices around this and start
pushing back on environments. So lots of people will go
(25:03):
to clubs hubs that have poke machines because they might
have a cheap schnitzel. Well, guess what, Go support your
local restaurant instead and make an empowered choice not to
support an industry that is harming your community. Knowingly harming
your community. There is a massive push of pokey free
(25:27):
pubs and clubs that have had a look at the
gambling environment. They're not waiting for it to be properly
regulated and they've gone, you know what, I'm not okay
with harming my community anymore. And they make an active
choice to get out of gambling products. And I think
that those venues need our support and encouragement because they
(25:50):
are putting the community's needs first. And you know, if
you're a business that can support a local soccer team
or something, step up and be a sponsor so that
your local club doesn't fill in that gap and then
get to claim all this glory of shelling out one
percent of the profits that they're making and threaten that,
(26:13):
you know, kids' sports will go under it if anyone
touches their poke machine revenue.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Put pressure on your local member that we always say that,
always put pressure on your local members. We have a
lot of people coming through who are just generally concerned
about gambling in the community. Put pressure on your local member.
This is something that needs there need to be voices
behind it, and we want those voices heard absolutely.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
And we need it.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
We need more voices in this area because there's support
around alcohol, there's support around drugs, there's minimal support around gambling.
And I think the conversation needs to be had. Ladies,
thank you so much. We've gone way over time, but
it has been enlightening and I've written things down and
(27:04):
the statistics are mind boggling. Then, thank you so much
for what you do for our community. You are a
remarkable young woman and just keep doing what you're doing.
And Kate, I feel like you're a sister from a
different mister. It's just delighted you took the time to
chat and just thank you for sharing. Your vulnerability was
(27:26):
very appreciated. I can't help but have a cry these days,
so that's just the menopause hidden me. But you're a
remarkable woman and you know, thank you for sharing. But ladies,
you guys are the bomb. And I have learned so
much today on this podcast. So if I've learned heaps,
I can tell you my listeners are going to too.
(27:48):
And I just think it's something very valuable that we've
shared today and that you guys have shared.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
So thank you, Thank you so much this opportunity, and
it's been lovely meeting both you and again Kate, Yes,
thank you for all of the work you've done and
just the whole time i've been a social worker, you're
working advocates. Has been so fantastic to see, So thank you, thank.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
You so wonderful. Thanks Kate.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Thanks Then
Appoche production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi everyone, thanks for tuning back into Tennis for Nurses.
This week is Part B of our Gambling Conversation with
turning point to Australia and where I had the absolute
privilege of talking to Zen who's a social worker, and Kate,
who has live life experience and is an advocate around
gambling harm in Australia. The conversation was too big just
(00:31):
to put in one episode, so I hope you get
something out of Part B. I know I learned so
much listening and talking to these amazing women, so enjoy
just a little reminder that there may be some triggering
conversations during this podcast, but honestly it's absolutely worth listening to.
(00:51):
And guys, if you haven't listened to Part A of
this conversation, it was last week's episode, so check out
Tennis for Nurses and just make sure you listen to
Part A of our Conversation around gambling.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hi, my name's Beck Goodbine, and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
to be, so I hit it and parked it for
nearly four years. We always have free will, we always
get to choose.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
We are autonomous.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I am in complete and utter or of you, Kate,
and hand on heart from someone who's had addiction issues,
I truly mean that I am very aware with my
personality of pokey machines. I don't have any apps on
my phone, but I am very particular about those venues,
(01:48):
mainly because I know how easy it is to get
sucked into things and I don't want to go down
that pathway. And a really interesting thing last year, I
had to go to a conference and the only accommodation
I could get in this down the Gold Coast was
actually at the casino. It was a three day conference.
I was there for three nights or two nights, and
(02:08):
I ended up leaving the conference early because my anxiety
and I couldn't work out why I was so anxious,
you know, because I was with people. I knew it
was a great conference. And then the penny dropped. It
was staying at the casino. It was the energy that
was in the casino. It was walking past all the
(02:31):
noises and the and I don't have an issue with
gambling per se, but I just think it was the
energy of the place. It was so low and there
were people there that just couldn't afford to be there,
and there they were. And in the end, I was like,
the conference is again this year, and it's like, there's
no way on earth I am staying at that casino again.
(02:53):
And I thought, isn't it interesting that I was so
aware of it and could recognize the sensation of staying
there and what it did to me. And I'm assuming, Kate,
you would never go into a casino. I've had to
give trainings to staff and things like that in venues
with the work that I do as an advocate. It
(03:15):
doesn't hold power over me now because I've liberated myself
from the shame that was never mine to bear.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
This shame belongs on this industry.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
This shame belongs on governments and regulatory bodies that have
failed to put consumer protections front and center.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Period.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
We shouldn't have thirty two billion dollars being lost out
of our nation. It's a disgrace that that is happening
under any prime minister's watch. And to point fingers and
blame Albany, sorry, You've got to point the fingers all
the way back to the fifties where this started and
(03:57):
has never been rained in I just.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Can't even comprehend thirty two billion.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's next level.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
It is for twenty seven million people, twenty seven million Australia,
twenty seven million people, but thirty two billion dollars. Yeah,
holy shit.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
When you put it that way, that blows my mind away.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
And though the types of statistics and facts which it
is really important, like through turning point, We've got the
Gambling Help Online website which has forums, and they are
anonymous forums where people can connect with others, both loved
ones and people who are gambling, who are wanting to
make a change, like and a lot of it is
just them learning these facts and going, oh my god. One,
(04:47):
I'm not the only person going through this, or I'm
not the only affected family member or loved one, and
two I'm caught up in all of this with other people.
I'm not on my own. I can break these things down.
But being empowered with the knowledge, like the amount of
just articles and information we're constantly putting onto the Gambling
Help Online website, which is like kind of really basic,
(05:09):
like these are the statistics. This is not on you,
this is not about you, this is what is happening,
this is the reality. Here are the pragmatic changes you
can make. Here are the services you can access, but
it is important that you have that bigger picture so
you can feel, as you said, Kate, empowered, So the
individuals can shed this shame, which yeah, it's not theirs
to have. They are people who have been caught up
(05:31):
in something which is insidious and so much bigger than
we ever properly give credence to.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
So then if someone rings you up and they're at
the end of their tether, like it sounded like Kate was,
what are the steps you advise?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
I think as a counselor the first thing is actually
sitting with someone in that space and acknowledging that just
the level of stress, that sense of powerlessness, and then
trying to work out what for them they can tangibly
put in place and what do they need in that moment,
and then moving forward. Depending on the state someone lives in,
each state has different services and different things that can
(06:09):
be put in place. Every state and territory, individuals and
affected loved ones can all access gambling counseling and financial counseling.
So if we're talking to someone on the Gambler's Helpline
for Victoria, or Tasmania, we can do a facilitated referral
through to their local gambling counseling service and also get
(06:30):
them linked with a financial counselor that way we can
assist them with getting to betstop or getting in contact
with the state's relevant self exclusion services for the actual venues.
When people come through on web chats, so that's anyone
from the entire country, we can do those facilitated referrals
(06:52):
again through to their local services so that the owners
is on the service to contact the person, which takes
a bit of the pressure off that person going, oh,
I have to wait until nine am so I can
call this service. No, the service has my information, they
can reach out to me. I can get this support
and really just talking people through what's available and also
(07:12):
if someone's on the gambling help online website, what kind
of resources can be useful for managing urgers, Linking in
with the forum, getting connected with other people so they're
feeling a bit less alone, and also at times having
conversations with them about like who knows what's going on?
Who do you feel comfortable having this conversation within your
day to day life, and how can we help you
(07:34):
get there. Do you need to write a little script
about how you're going to tell a partner or a child.
You know, let's workshop some of those things. Just getting
the support, but the pragmatic, real life things that people
have to do just as important.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I know it was very important, and Kate, it resounded
with me when you spoke with your twelve year old.
I have spoken to both my kids and I wasn't
a fall down drunk or any of that sort of stuff,
but I did ask my kids if my drinking impact
to them in some way. I think my words have
I stuffed you up? And you know what that's going
(08:12):
to know? We are really proud of you. And there's
something I love with this younger generation and people who
pooh or whatever, but this younger generation are all over
empathy and caring, acceptance, and you know, you guys have
got it nailed. It's my generation that are the ones
that blame, shame, embarrassed, whereas this younger generation are so
(08:37):
wonderful at being that little bit insightful and going, yeah,
you're okay.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I think I'm.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Okay, let's talk about it. And I think it's lovely
what your son said. Kate and I have to also acknowledge,
you must have a really beautiful husband.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Yeah, just had twenty five years married and look, it's
a miracle that we survived in and many marriages don't.
And that's often because people are just operating out of
their own sense of pain and aren't able to see
(09:11):
the pain of the other person clearly enough. And that's
completely valid, you know, because you don't know what you
don't know. And it's not about assigning blame. It's about going, Okay,
I did things that I wish I could have changed.
He did things he wished he could have changed, and
we both decided let's move forward together and not keep
(09:34):
throwing our past in each other's faces. And as far
as total transparency with the children, having that open dialogue
always available if there's anything that they want to talk
to me about or feel an impact from. But the
proud of the work that I've done in this space,
(09:54):
and it's given them a knowledge base in which to
operate in the world with clear understanding of the way
that it's designed to entrap people. So they not only
know it for themselves, but they're looking out for their
mates and making sure that none of their friends full
(10:16):
victim to this industry because it's just waiting.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Kate.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I bet you've got really kind, insightful kids. They're pretty
great because you've been honest with them. And I think
that in itself is a gift you've given your.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Kids, absolutely, and to the people they know. I mean,
it makes such a big difference to their friends knowing
that they have people they can be open with and
they use that empathy and support and understanding. So it's
a gift not just to your children, but to the
people in their lives as well. There are so many
ripple effects.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Absolutely, that's so true. Hum what is the work you're doing.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Now, Kate.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Well, I've been a national advocate for gambling reform for
the last day. I can't believe how long it is
taking to get traction, to get movement, to get all
this done. It's absolutely despicable. But I am not allowing
this to keep going without a fight. And I think
(11:24):
never in this country has there been a greater community
sense of we've had enough, we've had enough, and it's
up to the politicians now to listen to their communities
and actually take action on this industry. Whereas I think
in previous decades there just wasn't that community knowledge and
(11:46):
understanding or pressure to create reform, so politicians felt like
too vulnerable to put in place what needed to be
put in place. So I think we're approaching a time
where we hopefully will see all this hard work of
educating the community. You know, I've spoken in schools, workplaces, universities,
(12:09):
and it's so quick to be able to open people's
eyes up to the reality of the environment that they're
living in. But if you don't shine that light on
it in a way that's helping them to feel empowered
to create change, then we just accept the status quo.
It's amazing how quickly people become advocates if they receive
(12:33):
the right information.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I mean, those numbers speak volumes, but how many people
do they think are impacted by gambling harm?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Firsthand?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I'm not talking families or are there any statistics around
the number of people that actually believe do have concerns
around gambling.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Gambling harm is a spectrum.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Now, we don't talk about it like there's just people
you know at this point end because it's all a
grooming process of normalizing it and accessing it, so accessibility.
Time spent engaging with the products equals harm, either in
(13:16):
the short term or the long term, because it's still
training your brain even if you don't engage with it
for another decade. Then you lose a loved one and
you go, oh, I'm going to find myself in this
safe environment and get exploited down the track.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Would you agree, Zent?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Absolutely? And I also think we have your emerging concerns
now of younger people and in our purchases or like
loot boxes in games, which are conditioning those neural pathways
from such a young age and really priming very young
children's brains.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
What's a loot box?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
A loot box in games? You can win a loot
box which is basically just.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
A kind of a randomized prize.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Yeah, a randomized prize in a game. And it's that
same pattern of winning and the endorphin rush and the
expectation that's been created for children and young people that
primes their brains for gambling as they grow up. And
we're seeing those emergent concerns now, and we hold the
(14:26):
gambler's youth line here. We do get young people who
are calling through with these concerns, and it's this I
was playing video games as a kid and it went
like this, and it's like, okay, well where do we
start from. How young are people being targeted?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So these apps that are on phones and me iPads whatever,
they're playing a game and then they win a prize
that might not be monetry, but they might get five
more gos or something like that that's.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
A loop box.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, or the win a skin for a game or something. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
That then starts altering their brain, priming them, grooming them
for gambling down the track.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Oh my god, because it's eliciting the same neurological response
that winning a free spin on the pokies or having
a jackpot on the pokies does. It's the same neural
pathways that are being targeted through these things, and it
is damaging. It is problematic, and it's becoming more common.
More research is being done into it. Now we have
(15:29):
more of an understanding that there are these risks and
exposures from a very young age for young people.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
The gambling companies have very much got children and women
in their sites. So the merging of gambling and gaming
has happened.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
It's here.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
So part of the talks I give each year is
to occupational therapists in university, one of the lecturers gets
me to come in to help them to understand how
to advocate for their clients, especially neurodiverse children who once
accessed gaming their social connection or they're safe place. They're
(16:08):
now screaming at their parents to put more money on
their steam to keep playing games, and it's just horrific.
So if they're not prepared to know that that's gambling harm,
just because it's in a game, it doesn't mean it's
not gambling harm. It's the same companies are targeting an
(16:30):
already addicted cohort for want of a better term, in
the exact same way and financially exploiting them.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Knock me over with a feather.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I had no idea, and I'm pretty up to date
with things, so therefore, if I have no idea, I
can tell you the majority of Australians would have no idea.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
The co design of the program that's going into schools
in the Act this year, it's called Getting Played. And
when I was approached to help them with that, I said,
I'm not interested in something that's just going to feel.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
The place of an education program.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
If this education program doesn't in fact inform children about
what they're engaging with, because it's not about making people
who do gamble feel dumb or stupid about being exploited.
It's about highlighting the industry and how it is training
them and grooming them for addiction so that they can
(17:32):
then make empowered choices about their environment.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
That sounds really, really interesting, Kate. It's so important that
we have these conversations with younger people, and we are
treating younger people as intelligent individuals in their own right
who need to be aware and fully understand what is
happening and the realities of these situations.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
It's just not okay that they're expected to know how
to navigate that. I mean, I thought I was an
adult at eighteen and had no idea.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
But it doesn't discriminate.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
It doesn't matter if you are a child, it doesn't
matter if you're in your eighties. You are still equally
as vulnerable to being preyed upon.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
It. That's the reality we think about some of that
language people use where they're like, I never thought this
could happen to me because of X, and it's like, well,
and again it comes back to kind of unpacking and
shedding that shame. It's like it's not a reflection on you.
You actually could not have done anything differently right now,
this is the industry, this is how it works. You
(18:34):
are still an intelligent, important individual. Now it's about moving
forward and out of this. But it's not a reflection
on you.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, do you think it's everywhere? Everywhere? What hope do
some people have?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
People can make changes, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
But when you start looking at it through the correct lens,
when you start to see it like the gross toxic
space that it is, you know, changing your relationship with alcohol,
when you go, okay, this is a toxic that I'm
trying to ingest and pretend and that my body's okay
with it. You know, if somebody finds out in their
thirties that they're gluten intolerant, no one walks around going,
(19:11):
oh my gosh, I can't believe. I can't you know,
I'm such a bad human that I can't have gluten anymore.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
You accept it.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
You realize that that's a choice you are making for
your own well being. If you choose to eat it,
you're going to feel the effects of it, and it's
not going to be okay. So why is there this
difference between making an empowered choice about alcohol consumption or
making an empowered choice about using gambling or not. You know,
(19:40):
it's all about perspective and empowerment rather than saying you
can't do this anymore, like no one can get shamed
into changing, no period.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
But it's just so insidious from what you got, like
how you're describing it's so insidious.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
It is insidious. And that's why we're a twenty four
hour service. And I've spoken to people quite late into
the evening and they've been like, ohla, glad you were there.
I'm glad someone was there because for a lot of people,
particularly early doors, when they're trying to readjust and they're
trying to work through and begin to understand what they're
(20:15):
doing in terms of their gambling, just having someone there
they can talk to in those moments. And we have
conversations with people where it's like, Okay, you're driving home,
you can't avoid the Pokey's call us call us when
you get into the car. Or do you have a
friend that you can organize to speak to on these
days so that gradually the mindset can shift and the
(20:38):
focus can shift. And but there's work early doors in
making these changes. I just wish that people gave themselves
the grace to do that. And that's one of the
big things I always talk about with people, is like,
give yourself the grace to do this and to call
us to reach out, to do whatever you need to
(20:59):
do in these moments. Whatever you have to do to
get through this is fine. It's for you. It's for
your benefit.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Not having an expectation of perfection.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Yeah, you know, just allow yourself to be human and
realize it took twenty years to condition you into a state.
You have to give your time, your body time to
adjust and don't let you know one day spo you know,
spiral or have more power than it should. Just refocus
(21:30):
and go, okay, what are my goals moving forward?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Yeah? Absolutely, And there are those days that are just
more difficult. You know, we have people who are still
getting in contact with us, either on the online forums
on gambling help on the web, chats on the phone lines,
and they'll be like, I haven't gambled in ten years,
but today I just need to check in. And it's like, great,
good on you. That is amazing. And sometimes those conversations
(21:56):
and conversations I end up just going somewhere completely tangential
because they really just needed a distraction and the support
in that moment. And it's like, but this is still
one because all how insideful, some days I'm more difficult.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
You're acknowledging that and the fact that you guys are
there for them to turn to someone that isn't going
to shame them, is open to the conversation, understands that,
you know, they just need to chat.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
How good's that?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah? It is. I think it's got Every state and
territory has their services, and the various states and territories
have the various services for affected loved ones as well.
And it's always just particularly with those online spaces we
have because they are anonymous, is just making sure people
can break down the earlier barriers and really forge that
connection early on. And sometimes people need to have those
(22:42):
conversations like on the forum or viral web chat first
where they're saying everything but there's no name or anything
to it. They can be really anonymous and having that
space allows them to build up to speak to someone
on the phone, and then they speak to someone on
a phone a few times, and then they can see
the counselor and they may not have stopped gambling yet,
but they just needed to go through those little steps
(23:03):
and feel comfortable having those conversations and feel held and
feel heard and supported, and then they can see someone
face to face and they can start to work through
how do I acknowledge this my family? What does that
look like? But again giving themselves the grace to go
through that process and recognize it's not always linear. And
I wish as a society we were more patient with
(23:25):
people in that way.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Then if someone is struggling with gambling harm, how do
they get in touch with turning point?
Speaker 3 (23:36):
So for every state and territory, if they are wanting
to speak to someone over the phone, so a gambling
councilor twenty four hours a day for themselves or for
someone else one eight hundred eight five eight eight five
eight that's Gambler's Help line and that's every state of territory,
(23:57):
twenty four hours for everyone. If you know someone's maybe
not ready to speak to someone over the phone, or
having a phone calls not con convenient at that time,
they can speak to us via web chat through Gambling
Help Online, and they can speak to your council twenty
four to seven via web chat anonymously. Through there, they
(24:17):
can access our online forums, so have that peer connection,
and they can also access all of the information we
have so psychoeducation around how to recognize gambling harm, what
it means for them, how to manage urgers to gamble,
things like that.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
So, yeah, and Kate, if we as a community want
to see change in this space, what can we do?
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Book a room and get me to come and speak
to your community. It's so important to educate your workplaces,
your schools, your universities, your community groups so that they can,
as I said, make empowered choices around this and start
pushing back on environments. So lots of people will go
(25:03):
to clubs hubs that have poke machines because they might
have a cheap schnitzel. Well, guess what, Go support your
local restaurant instead and make an empowered choice not to
support an industry that is harming your community. Knowingly harming
your community. There is a massive push of pokey free
(25:27):
pubs and clubs that have had a look at the
gambling environment. They're not waiting for it to be properly
regulated and they've gone, you know what, I'm not okay
with harming my community anymore. And they make an active
choice to get out of gambling products. And I think
that those venues need our support and encouragement because they
(25:50):
are putting the community's needs first. And you know, if
you're a business that can support a local soccer team
or something, step up and be a sponsor so that
your local club doesn't fill in that gap and then
get to claim all this glory of shelling out one
percent of the profits that they're making and threaten that,
(26:13):
you know, kids' sports will go under it if anyone
touches their poke machine revenue.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Put pressure on your local member that we always say that,
always put pressure on your local members. We have a
lot of people coming through who are just generally concerned
about gambling in the community. Put pressure on your local member.
This is something that needs there need to be voices
behind it, and we want those voices heard absolutely.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
And we need it.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
We need more voices in this area because there's support
around alcohol, there's support around drugs, there's minimal support around gambling.
And I think the conversation needs to be had. Ladies,
thank you so much. We've gone way over time, but
it has been enlightening and I've written things down and
(27:04):
the statistics are mind boggling. Then, thank you so much
for what you do for our community. You are a
remarkable young woman and just keep doing what you're doing.
And Kate, I feel like you're a sister from a
different mister. It's just delighted you took the time to
chat and just thank you for sharing. Your vulnerability was
(27:26):
very appreciated. I can't help but have a cry these days,
so that's just the menopause hidden me. But you're a
remarkable woman and you know, thank you for sharing. But ladies,
you guys are the bomb. And I have learned so
much today on this podcast. So if I've learned heaps,
I can tell you my listeners are going to too.
(27:48):
And I just think it's something very valuable that we've
shared today and that you guys have shared.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
So thank you, Thank you so much this opportunity, and
it's been lovely meeting both you and again Kate, Yes,
thank you for all of the work you've done and
just the whole time i've been a social worker, you're
working advocates. Has been so fantastic to see, So thank you, thank.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
You so wonderful. Thanks Kate.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Thanks Then
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