February 23, 2025 • 48 mins
Today we chat with Dave Kramer about his burning desire to make young adults aware of the impact of speech, actions and how to treat each other with respect.
Dave lost his best friend Hannah Clarke and her 3 children, 5 years ago, in a horrific domestic violence incident that shocked Australia.
The impact this has had on Dave has been profound. We discuss how he cared for
himself after Hannah’s Murder. How an incident like this changes a persons life and how he is now working tirelessly to prevent domestic violence, by working with young adults about appropriate behaviour.
This chat was hard to do. Hannah’s death was 5 years ago, the day after we recorded this podcast. Dave showed such courage to talk, I sat there listening with tears rolling down my cheeks.
This is a very special poddy. My desire is that in some small way, Hannah and her three beautiful children, will touch you all in some way through the words of Dave and this podcast.
Small Steps 4 Hannah
https://www.smallsteps4hannah.com.au
The Halt Program
HALT program
DV Connect
The Handy Guide (Lady Musgrave Trust)
From Nowhere To Go. To Know Where To Go - The Handy Guide
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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appogie Production.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi, my name's beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
to be, so.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I hit it and parked it for Nelly four years.
We always have free will, We always get to choose.
We are autonomous. Welcome everyone to Tenderness for Nurses. Today
we have Day Pramer chatting with us for Small Steps
for Hannah and his program which is called the Wholt
Program of where he goes into schools and talks boys
(00:43):
and girls about appropriate behavior of men. But before we
go any further, I really just want to let you
all know that we will be discussing domestic violence in
this episode and there may be some triggering conversations. So
if you find this difficult to listen to, please, by
all means just pop it on the back burner and
(01:04):
move onto the next podcast. But I just want to
let you know that there will be some conversations that
may be hard to listen to.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Welcome Dave, thanks for having me back. I appreciate you
having me.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Oh, I'm just delighted that you could come in and
have a chat with it. So just give us a
little bit of a background on you and your story
and how you are where you are now sitting in
the chair opposite me.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
So I guess a few years ago, in about twenty eighteen,
twenty nineteen, I started studying psychology and I was thinking
about working towards an organizational well being career, focusing on
you know, how organizations can set up structures to support
staff or employee well being. Then about a year and
a bit into the degree, at the beginning of twenty twenty,
many people around Brisbane, Australia would have heard of the
(01:49):
death of Hannah Clarke and her three children on the
nineteenth of February twenty twenty and her three children lost
their lives to Hans ex partner, Rowan Baxter. Baxter, as
I said, was hands ex partner. He was the children's father,
and he was also a man I knew for some
time for about eight years, and for some of that
(02:10):
time I called him a friend or I thought of
him as a friend up until close towards the end
of the line. And while I was studying psychology, I
was reflecting on what had happened, what I'd seen, and
I decided that while I wanted to support well being.
I wanted to do it from a different perspective. I
wanted to look at how do we prevent these horrific
tragedies from happening? And so I started to look into that,
(02:30):
and I guess what I recognized in all the things
that I had seen and what the research was saying,
and how we can prevent it. I started to realize
a lot of things that I could have done. I
started to look at all the things that I could have,
would have should have done to divert Baxter off the
path that he was on, and realized that there was
a space for me to start having conversations with people
(02:52):
to support safety, to support respect. And it initially began
with going into organizations and starting to have these conversations
about what it looks like before it happens and what
we can do to take some steps and take some
action in those spaces. And then, alongside the advice of
Sir and Lloyd Clark, Kanner's parents, the children's grandparents, they
wanted to really look at the future and they wanted
(03:12):
to start to understand, well, what are young people seeing
and experiencing in their relationships and how do we help
them be safe and respectful, and so I said that
I could develop based on the research I was doing.
In the work I was doing, I can develop a
program that is age appropriate, that is research BACS, that
is supportive of young people contributing to safe and respect
for relationships. And through a year of development, we are
(03:33):
an elite year of research. We looked into what can
we do to develop a respect for Relationships program for
kids in high school? So year seven to twelve students
and I developed the plan and a program based on
what the research said, what the literature said about respect
for relationships programs, how they work, whether up here in
Australia or overseas, and I also based it on the
perspectives of teachers and parents and adults who work with
(03:56):
young people. Delivered that late in twenty twenty three, and
the people, the young people who pat took part in
the program just didn't like it, to be honest. They
were like, it's not meeting us where we're at. You know,
we get all the red flags, we see all of
that education. No one is talking to us about how
to have respectful conversations when we're struggling. No one's talking
(04:17):
to us about what it actually looks like to be
in a safe and healthy relationship. They just keep telling
us red flag this and red flag that and call
your mates out when it's not even safe to do that. Like,
we just don't feel like that's going to work for us.
So I sat back and I started listening to young people,
and over the course of the last year, between that
point of twenty twenty three and to the end of
(04:37):
sorry middle of twenty twenty four, we got another We
redeveloped the program and facilitated that with a group of
year eleven and twelve students, and the feedback we got
from that has now given us the opportunity to present
a program across across Australia that works with young people
from the position they're at, so not from the end
of the line where we see cases like that like hand,
(04:57):
but where we actually sit with them in their experience
and understand what does a safe and respectful relationship look
like and how do we actively contribute to it.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
You're just talking about that and going into the schools
and I hate to admit it, I am a maths tragic.
Well this season I have been quite disturbed the gas
lighting and the behavior, and I do know it's edited
of two male teachers that have been on that program.
(05:28):
I mean, what sort of signal is that then sending?
I mean maths in general is just horrendous. Let's be honest.
But they've got two male teachers that have been on
that program and their behavior on that program and the
things that they said were so toxic and so awful.
Are you dealing with the teachers not just the students.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, that's a really really good question. So our goal
really is to create a shift in culture. We want
to see a culture that supports safety for all people.
So we recognize and even some of the teachers tell
us from some schools that for the students, their experiences
can be sometimes that if it's a female teacher in
the room or a female substitute teacher, that can be
(06:09):
really hard. They walk in the room and the kids
are just going running riots and then a male pops
his head through the door, and a male teacher pops
his head through the door, and all of a sudden,
the students like well bitters, straighten up and sit down,
straighten out. Because there's some old school rules that people
are still playing right, playing by right. So in the home,
dad is the disciplinarian. He makes the rules and he
rules the roost. And these old school rules are feeding
(06:32):
their way into the behaviors in the school and what
children or young people think respect, who deserves respect, risk
in that sort of perspective. So we do have conversations
with the We invite everyone to attend the conversation because
the conversation we have, although it's age appropriate, it's relevant
for everyone. Yeah, we unpack identity, we unpack emotions, we
unpack critical and crucial conversations, we unpack how to communicate effectively.
(06:57):
All it's all ways, and how do we role model
safety and respect in front of our students or with
each other? And yeah, while we do have teacher PD
sessions that we do run with some schools when they
have the capacity to do so so well, our ultimate
goal is to run to have a program where we
can go in for a day and speak with the
(07:19):
year seven and eight students, the year nine and ten students,
the year eleven and twelve students, and then after school
with the teachers about everything that we teach.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Let's just pack that and put that aside for a moment.
I want to go back to you because you know
the podcast is about tennis nurses, but in general, like, honestly,
we're talking about tennis for everyone. How did you look
after you when everything transpired with Hannah and did you
(07:47):
have support people around you? I mean, I look at
her parents and the remarkable work they're doing. I don't
know if I could ever have moved the way they
have moved. I mean, they just are amazing. Or yourself,
how did you look after yourself during that time? I
mean it must have been horrifically bleak.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, I guess something I might have forgotten to mention
earlier is that, you know, I had known them for
about eight years and over that course, at that time,
Hanna and I had developed a really close friendship and
she'd become my best friend absolutely, and the three kids,
Leanna and Trey were like my niece, nieces and nephew,
(08:30):
so I love them like family. And so when that
happened in the way that it did, especially, I mean
the fact that they were gone was hard enough, but
the way that happened, there were a lot of things
that I had to work through with the grief that
I experienced and still do, so I kind of went
into a hole as a habit as the way that
I'd survived things. You know, in my life, I had
(08:56):
adhered to the social rules that existed around me. Around
you know, men, we don't speak about our emotions. We
shut it down until it goes away. And I was
very lucky, very lucky that I had people around me
who are willing to force me to break those rules.
You know. I had my brother who would call and
(09:16):
check in and force me out of the house, you know,
like I had my brother and his wife and my
two nephews who are all beautiful people, and they would
just want me to spend time with them, invite me
over for Friday night watching the footy and having dinner
with them and just talking and being around them. And
I had a really good mate as well, him and
his girlfriend fiance. They would, you know, after because I
(09:41):
did a lot of CrossFit at the time, and after training,
they would let's get dinner, let's have a chat, let's
see how you go on, And I'd go to their
place and hang out on times that were tough to
be by myself. So as much as I wanted to
be by myself because I thought that was the thing
I needed, it really wasn't. And you know when we're struggling.
We I think a lot of men tend to believe
(10:02):
that being by yourself is what you need. And there
are moments of silence, and there are moments of solitude
that you do need. But ultimately we need community if
we're going to get through those really hard times. We
need community. And I was really lucky to have people
in my life at the time who who were willing
to help me step away from that solitude and into
community so that I could I could heal properly. Then
(10:24):
my dogs, my dogs are very important to me. Oh
I get that. They were like when no one else
is around, they were there always, so.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
They know, they know when you need them and they're
on you or beside you or I mean, I know
Lola has been my little saving grace and now I've
got Samuel Ford as well. But they just know, you know,
and their foods with the soul added animals, they truly are.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Absolutely you know. There was a place and we used
to go to all of us used to go to
the beach on the Gold Coast. There was a dog
beach on one side and then people on the other
and there were times oftentimes where we would go we
would sort of coincidentally both be there. I'd be on
the dog beach side and they would be on the
(11:11):
on the family beach side, and then we'd go to
the cafe and have coffee and catch up, you know,
everyone involved. And then there were days where we all
went together and spent time with them. And so every
now and again part of that process of healing was
going to that place and just being there in a
place where we shared really fond memories, just to just
to be with that those moments.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
That'd be really tough.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Though, Yeah, yeah, a bit of a.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Double edged sword that you want to be there and
you want to remember, but it's also painful.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
To remember it is. That's the that was always the battle,
you know, like kind of go into a place where
you're like, what's the.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Do you want me to change the subject?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
It's okay, you know, what's the point in loving people
so deeply? What's the point in connecting so strongly? If
something like this can happen And it takes a lot
of time to get to the point that the point
is to have those moments, to go to the beach,
(12:16):
to have little Leana sitting on the front of the
paddle board, or to swim out to the middle of
the canal with the with the with the two girls
because they were big enough to wear you know, life
vests and swim out to the middle, and to have
them feel like they can trust me and they can
feel safe with me, and we can swim all the
way across and back and they can do it laughing
(12:37):
and smiling. You know, the workouts that we got to do, well,
we got to play tag with the kids before I
started the workout. You know, all of those moments are
That's the point. And as hard as it is, because
for my whole life, I'd kind of kept people at
(12:57):
a distance. That was how I'd lived my life because
it was through childhood and lots of other things that
I'd experienced, I decided that being close was not safe.
But and little Leana had a way of breaking down
those walls. Han just she was all about making you happy,
making you smile. Like I did not know what was
(13:18):
going on in her world at the time. For a
long period of time of that friendship that we created,
there was only probably the last year where I got
insight to understand what she was experiencing. And even then
I could never understand what she was going through, But
it didn't matter for her that she was going through that.
What she cared about was that everyone else was happy.
And she just had an energy about her that made
(13:41):
you want to be around her, that made you want
to smile, that made everything more enjoyable. And Leana just
had this depth of empathy for a four year old
girl who could barely see her in my knee. She
was just full of empathy for everyone and that kind
of you know, it pulls your guard down and it
makes you want to connect.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Do you think Hannah knew that? I mean, it's it's
a newer term coerce of control. Do you think she
understood what he was doing was?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I think she knew it didn't feel good, She knew
she didn't want to be involved with him for a
period of time. She knew she didn't want to be
with him for a period of time. She didn't know
what coercive control was, nor did I and or did
many people in her life. Most people before twenty twenty
didn't know about it. There were a lot of people
who started to learn of it after Alison Baiden Clay
(14:33):
in twenty twelve and her family and the work they've done,
and Vanessa Palla continues to do amazing work in that space.
But it wasn't something that was on our radar at all.
Course of control domestic violence was, but I think for
a lot of us it was domestic violence. We thought
physical abuse is domestic violence. We didn't think all of
the things that Hanne was experiencing, the emotional abuse, the isolation,
(14:53):
the taking her away or driving wedges between her brother
and her, her best friend and her parents and her like,
the trying to keep her away from other people, not
allowing her to get have a career, and ensuring that
she had part time work because he thought that he
should be providing even though the gym was failing, not
allowing her to go out with her friends, or not
allowing her to wear particular items of clothing, blaming her
(15:15):
for everything that went wrong in their relationship, in their gym,
whatever it might be, even if he was completely and
totally responsible for it. It was all of this lack
of accountability and the deflection of blame and control as
well it can be, but some people are just assholes.
So I do hear the excuse the language, but I
(15:36):
do hear the I do hear the narcissistic stuff come
up a lot? And it is and I think you know,
shows like Maps have created popularity around terms like gas
lighting and narcissism where it can be used irresponsibly. It
can be used appropriately, but it can also be used irresponsibly.
And I think our first step when it comes to
(15:57):
understanding people who are using these particular types of behaviors
that are controlling or minimizing or blaming, we should look
to diagnose that person with a condition. We should look
to how we can hold them accountable to those behaviors
to see if we can start to change or create
some change for them. If we go straight to a diagnosis,
it almost feels like it's well, it's unchangeable. We can't
(16:17):
do anything about that. He's an arcissist. It's over. When
if we start with well, he's behaving badly or he's
doing things that are not okay, we can move towards accountability.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
But just from past things that have happened with me,
I'm not very good at confrontation at the best times,
let alone confrontation with a male. I'm married to the
most beautiful man, and my family and the men in
my life are very special and kind and very loving,
but just and once again just using mass as an example,
(16:49):
a part from the fact I'd be in the corner
rocking if I was in a relationship or having the
conversations that those people are having with each other and
how they're having it. If someone is talking inappropriately to you,
how do you stop them or do you just go, hey,
I'm out, need to go for walk, or you know,
if there's bullying in the workplace, or you know, a
(17:11):
patient is saying inappropriate things, or how should someone deal
with that? I am and I'm saying I'm pretty like
I remember as a young student some of the things
that we said were very inappropriate or touching the bum
or you know, there was stuff that really we look
back then and we used to laugh about it, but
now you're not.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Going to go, oh God, it's kind of like a oh,
we're just we just have to deal with it. Or
there's all these sayings like tough en up and get
on with and all that sort of stuff, And for me,
it's not about putting more onus or pressure on the
person who's experiencing that behavior, who's been subjected to that behavior. Right,
if someone's touching you inappropriately. Then it should be on
those around you who are not being put in a
(17:52):
vulnerable position to be able to do something. And I
try to invite the rest of it. I mean, if
it's a one on one situation, it's really challenging. And
if we're talking about domestic violence and coercid control, there's
just no way that someone who's experiencing that behavior can
turn around to their partner and say, hey, stop doing that.
They're just not in a position of power to be
able to do that. That's the point of that that
the person who's using the behavior is the person who's
(18:14):
perpetrating those behaviors. The point of it is to gain
power and control and dominance. So for the person who's
subjected to it, there's just no safe place for them
to say, I don't like that, I'm leaving, And often
leaving can be a really really traumatic thing that can happen.
And so what I try to do is put the
onus on those around you know, if we're seeing things
or hearing things or witnessing things, we should be doing
(18:36):
something about it. And some of those things could be
if we're seeing someone touch someone inappropriate, if it's in
the workplace especially, or we don't do that here. That's
not allowed in our workplace, even if it is a
patient who doesn't work there. We have rules, right, And
I've seen in many hospitals there's posters on the wall
that say respect our staff, pointing to that sign and saying,
this is not respecting our stuff. I need you to start.
(18:57):
Respecting our staff is one of the things that we
can do. You know, you obviously have an obligation to
look after the people who come into the hospital, but
it may be a process whereby you can step away
from and someone else can step into supporting that.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, and there are nurses that are all over that
sort of stuff, And that's why I never was an
emergency department nurse because I just don't have too much softy,
you know. And I'm not saying that those guys aren't.
They just are probably that little bit quicker off the
bat than I am. When it comes to, you know,
thinking up something smart back to someone, I'm not that person.
(19:36):
So when it comes to a position of say, for example,
one of your colleagues comes into the workplace and they're
a nurse or a healthcare professional, and you know, we
are educated in a lot of domestic violence. We are
all now being educated in coast of control that sort
of thing. And a colleague shared with you about what's
going on at home, what could you, as a colleague
(20:00):
slash workmate friend, what could you advise them to do?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
The most important thing to do is to believe them
when they say this is what I'm experiencing. We want
them to be able to sit there with the experience
of being believed, because if they're sharing this with a colleague,
it's likely that they've tried sharing it before and other
people have either minimized their experience or said, I'm sure
it's not that big of a deal, don't worry about it.
Often comes from a good place, if I'm being honest.
(20:26):
Often we're seeing they go, oh, I don't think it's
that bad, because you don't want it to be that bad.
You want it to be okay. I'm like, oh, that
sounds really bad, but I think it'll just pass with time.
I think that's or he's probably going through a hard time.
You know, if he's going through a hard time, then
maybe he does these leads. You'll probably be fine soon.
It comes from a place of I hope you're okay.
(20:46):
It actually comes from a place of I want you
to be okay. But for the person who's hearing that,
it can be really minimizing of their experience. It can
devalue what they're trying to say about their experience. It
can sometimes be gaslighting. I'm not seeing what I'm actually seeing.
It's not actually as bad as I think it is.
So rather than showing up in a way that we
(21:08):
recognize our discomfort in that experience. Because I know if
someone were to come to me and hand did and
if someone were to go to you and talk someone
you care about said i'm struggling with this in the home,
you'd be deeply uncomfortable with it, and you'd want to
get them out as quick as possible.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yep, yeap.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
The challenge for us is to try and set that
aside and to say to them, to say to them,
I'm really sorry, this sounds really hard. You can say
I believe you, because they might not have heard that before.
I believe you, and I want to be here for you.
And then if we can to give them some agency
around that, because likely what they're experiencing in the home
is a complete disempowerment of their ability to make choices
(21:44):
and decisions. So to say something like I'm sorry, I
believe you, I want to be here from you. If
you can just let me know how that looks, I'll
show up however you need. Then that can help them
to start to think that, oh, I'm capable of making
these decisions because the person in the home isn't allowing
them to make those. As much as we might have
had our own experience, as much as we might have
(22:05):
heard so many other people's experiences, everyone's experience is unique.
And so to say to them, I actually don't have
any answers for you here, but I do know that
I'll be here with you can be really reassuring for
them because they probably don't have any answers either, and
they're probably not looking for answers. They're probably just looking
for someone to sit, listen, and believe. And if we
can do that in that space, then over time we
(22:28):
can potentially say, hey, I've looked up some resources around
what we spoke about. Is there anything you would like
to look into? Again, offering them the agency to make
the choice to look into some things rather than saying, hey,
I look this stuff up. You really need to look
into it, because that can be again pressure and control.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I would assume if it's a domestic violence situation, it's
not like they can go home with that information, can they.
So it has to be done in a very subtle,
careful manner so as not to trigger the perpetrator at home.
Am I correct in that assumption?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah? Definitely. I mean asking them what's the safest way
to communicate with you? You know, do you have an
email address that he doesn't have any access to or
they don't have any access to? What about your work computers?
Is that a place where they can't access the things
that are on that computer? Can you save things there?
Have you spoken to people in your workplaces? There're someone
safe you can talk to there? Or if it is
in the workplace, is you would you like to go
(23:24):
and speak to this team sure about this particular thing.
I know a lot of workplaces are doing their work
to ensure those who are surviving domestic violence have ultimate
email addresses, for example, or they have separate bank accounts
where pays can go into separate there's portions of the
pay can go into a separate payment channel. Paid domestic
violence leave is also very.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Helpful, so that is the thing now, Yes.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, absolutely, So all workplaces in Australia have to offer
ten days paid domestic violence leave.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, yeah, so that's important for everyone to know that,
and the leave can be used for anything in relation
to that. Each organization works with what they can to.
The main thing to know is that every organization should
have an obligation to also ensure that it doesn't show
up as domestic violenestly, it's personally, or it's you know,
it's a part of your your annually, whatever it might be.
(24:16):
That's how it will show up on any printer document
or anything like that. Those who need to know in
the organization know, but.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
No one else does.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
No one else knows.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
That's fabulous. So when was that past?
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Oh? Where are we now? Was last year? Well it
might have been twenty twenty three. As I said earlier,
the years are getting led together at the moment. But yeah,
it's been it's been around for a little while. We've
been talking about it in some of the organizations for
a little while, how to access it and what it
can look like when you do access it. Some people
are really worried about having to give evidence and Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
How does someone prove that that is the situation or
they're just like the doctor's certificate. I mean, then going
to the doctor's tough because you don't want to be
discussing that with your doctor. Maybe maybe not.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, I would believe it. In all the organizations I've
I worked with, it is they generally have a you know,
it's safe to take this lead without having to provide
us with all the documentation you might need to give
to the police or whatever else it might be. And
generally it's a case by case. You know, you talk
to the people you need to talk to within the organization,
make the application, and you know, the process from start
(25:24):
to finish is anonymous, so from those who need to know, no,
but everything else is kept out of there.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
One of the questions that I really wanted to ask
you was what is toxic masculinity? And how do we
talk to our sons and daughters about appropriate speech regarding women.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
So it depends on who you ask when it comes
to toxic masculinity. I saw a video the other day
where someone posted them doing a few workouts and wrestling
with their son, and it said, if this is toxic masculinely,
then we need more of it. And that's not toxic
masculinity at all. It's just people doing workouts and wrestling
and having a bit of fun. And you know, there's
combat sports and people are trying to say, well, we
(26:07):
should be allowed to do this without being called toxic,
and yeah, of course you should. There's you know, there's
lots of things that you can do and participate in
without it being toxic. But it's when it becomes toxic
that it becomes a version of toxic masculinity. So when
with masculinity, I guess it's a bunch of rules or
constructs that we've set up underneath an identity around masculinity
(26:28):
and Masculinely, when I talk to students about it, I'll say,
you know, who do we normally associate with masculinity? And
they'll say men, okay, So what does it mean to
be a man? And they'll come up with a bunch
of characteristics around what it means to be a man.
To be tough, to be strong, to have power in
your relationships, to make all the decisions, to be a leader,
to earn lots of money, and you should drive fast
(26:51):
cars or big cars. You should drink beer.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
You should these are the answers you're getting.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
From young people. Yeah, it's from all people actually, in fact,
like it's a rigid stereotype around what it means to
be a man or to be mainly even the way
you look. You know, you should be muscly, you should
be tall, you should have facial hair, be stronger than
other people, or the strongest or alpha or dominant, you know,
top dog, top g. They use these terms as well
with young people, and then we talk about, okay, well,
(27:20):
what happens if someone doesn't adhere to these rules? You know,
if what happens if Dave, for example, says to his mates, fellas,
I'm not going to come to the footy tonight, I'm
going to stay in and watch the Barbie movie instead,
what kind of names does Dave get called? Yeah? And
this is where the language, again, it causes harm to
all all people. And that's where we really need to recognize.
The problem is not in the words themselves. So young
(27:41):
people will often use words like simp which means that
he is. So if Dave says I'm going to watch
the Bobbie movie with my girlfriend, it basically means Dave
simping for her, which for young boys means that every
time Dave dogs the boys for his girlfriend, then he's simping.
He's being a woos and going and hanging out with
her instead of hanging out with the boys.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
You need to take a couple of steps back in
dogs someone.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Sorry when he ditches the boys to hang out with
his girlfriend. When Dave ditches the boys, this is their
young language I've adopted. But anyway, when Dave ditches the
boys to hang out with the with his girlfriend, that's
him simping. He's he's just trying to chase her and
he's trying to get after her. That kind of thing.
What when I talk to young girls about and I say, well,
(28:28):
what does it mean for someone to be a simp?
They say they say that anytime my boyfriend shows me
an ounce of respect, his mates will bully him until
he disrespects me. And what that disrespect can look like
is in a group chat, for example, where Dave said,
I'm not coming to the game tonight, I'm watching the
Barbie Moe with my girlfriend. But they'll use all of
this language to try and bully him into ditching her
(28:49):
and going hanging out with them. And if he doesn't
do that. He might go, yeah, well look at this
picture she sent me last night, and send that in
the group chat, and then that's where it becomes. That's
where the impact is, right, because the boy, he thinks,
I just need to get back into that space where
what it looks like to be a man, right, Be tough,
be in control, be dominant in your relationship, be a
man who sleeps with a bunch of different women. You know,
(29:10):
that's what it means to be a man. So he
shares that picture in the group chat, and all the
boys like, oh, Dave's back on the team. But for her,
the very different story that gets told because potentially the
next day she goes to school not knowing that picture
has been sent and nor that it should have ever
been sent to these other fellas, and they've shared it
with everyone else in their school, and she's gone to
(29:31):
school with that experience and what we're seeing.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
It's a very different experience to what they've experienced.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
The boys think they're having a bit of fun and banter.
She's experienced something completely different where she is now being isolated, bullied, harassed,
and ostracized, and she's ashamed of the fact that everyone
is seeing this picture, and she's feeling judged, she's feeling
like she's done the wrong thing. And then when people
say when she goes to look for support about it,
(29:57):
people will say, well, why did you send the picture?
Rather than saying he should never have passed that on,
that will go to her and blame her for the
fact that it was ever sent to in the first place.
And I think what we need to start to do
is give her space to feel unashamed and to feel okay,
and to feel safe and to feel secure, and then
to hold the right people accountable for doing the wrong
(30:18):
thing for sharing on. And obviously there are conversations that
need to be had about sharing imagery and all that
sort of stuff that needs to happen, but if we're
getting to this point, and we're at this point, the
conversation should be around how we can support her to
feel safe and secure, because we've seen examples of this
in Queensland recently where a young girl had taken her
life after an experience like this.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Well, interestingly, my daughter recently got a message in her
inbox now closed twenty five from one of her really
dear friend's ex boyfriends. These guys are twenty five, twenty six,
he messaged her asking her now hasn't had any contact
with her for years, nothing, asking her for a need
(30:58):
need image. Now she's in a long term relationship, lives
in America, and he messaged her asking her to send
nuds just out of the blue, out of the blue,
and so she straight away sent it onto like the
message onto all the really good friends that dump this guy.
And when her partner came home, she showed him and
(31:19):
he goes, can you just message him back? You're dead
from the neck up. I don't know what had transpired
in that time, but he then had blocked her, which
is great, But this is, you know, an adult male
out of the blue asking for someone to send the
nudes in this day and well.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
It comes from entitlement. It comes from a belief that
he's entitled to have that those images. And he's, oh,
we know each other, it's fine, just send him, you know.
It's it's a belief that he's better than it. You know,
he's better than her and everyone else. And if I
send this out, I'll get enough back, you know. It's
just and that's that's the real challenge in I think,
(31:59):
especially for young people is, and Sheel Contos talks about
this in her book Consent Made Bare. The entitlement and
empathy gaps, So the lack of empathy that young boys
might be building in their experience of young women and
their experiences of the world and their entitlement that overlays
that with an entitlement to their bodies, their images, their
(32:21):
experiences of them. So we have to break that down.
You have to help them understand that just because this
idea of being a man that says you should be
dominant and have power and control and be able to
make all the decisions exists, doesn't mean that it's okay.
Just because that has been the experience of a lot
of people over the course of time doesn't mean that
it's right. We should be able to step outside of
(32:41):
those boundaries and start to create more respectful and safe relationships.
And that's where we talk about how you know, when
Dave steps outside of that boundary, it says I'm going
to hang out with my girlfriend tonight and watch the
Barbie movie. If the boys want to have a bit
of banter and fun and games, that's fine, but what
they need to remember is that there's a boundary that
they might cross and to pull it back from that boundary,
and they're the opportunities we try to give to young people.
(33:04):
We don't want to take away fine and banter and games.
We want to help them to have that in a
way that's safe for everyone and in a way and
help them to understand that there is an impact that
is created from that behavior where they think it's just banter,
but the long term impact is on her and her experience,
and we need to remember that that's that's something where
we need to build empathy for that experience so that
(33:25):
they can start to recognize where we need to pull
back the boundary.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
It's interesting my daughter Chloe has specialized in intel intelligence
and as part of her thesis project for her Masters,
she did it on the bombing in New Zealand in
christ Church. That then led her down a pathway into
in cells, which I'd never heard of, and I'm sure
(33:53):
a lot of listeners have never heard of what an
in cel is. And then I started ask some questions
and she gave me a book to read, no word
of a lie. Three chapters in. I gave it back
to her and I said, you know, I now know
it's good to know when it's opened my eyes. But
there's stuff in here. I don't need to I honestly
(34:13):
don't need to know. I don't know how she was
able to read it to know what's going on online
in these group chats and is in your experience?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
You know?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Is that something the young guys are aware of? Are
they online? Do people go in? Do young men go
in and look at it and then go most go hey,
this isn't for me, or it's quite easy to get
sucked down into that vortex like is this something you
deal with and see?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah? Yeah, The in cell community is I guess growing
because there are role models in that space that sell
very good messages for young people, for young boys especially,
you know, be tough, be in control, earn lots of money,
go to the gym, be motivated, be disciplined, work hard.
These are all very positive messages that young people, young
(35:05):
especially want to aspire to. So they get sucked in
the wall text through those kinds of messages, and then
every now and again they get fed something they like
it's because of women that we have poor mental health,
or it's because of women that we have to work
as hard as we do, and we have to earn
all the money, and they're just going to take all
the money. And then they start thinking thinking like they're
reinforcing these rules or these ideas that they brought into
it based on earn lots of money and be disciplined,
(35:26):
all that sort of stuff. But then they're underlaying or
overlaying those messages with messages of hatred for women and
blame for women for the challenges that men faate, with
no accountability for men whatsoever. And that's where it becomes
this toxic environment for young boys and men where they
think that their experience of mental health perhaps they had
a really heart breakup, they went through a shitty breakup.
(35:49):
And I think for most men or men, we've experienced
jealousy and sadness and anxiety and depression and all of
these experiences in relation to being with a woman or
having a woman in our lives, whether it be among
mothers or our partners or whatever it might be. And
so it's rather than taking responsibility for the emotion and
(36:09):
communicating that and working with people who can help us
seeking support, we just blame those women instead. So it's
their fault that I feel this way. Therefore I should
hate them. Obviously not my perspective, but the perspective of
that kind of in cell community. Women are to blame
for all of these kinds of problems.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
But as a woman and we've had a breakup with
a guy, we've felt all that stuff too. But you're
saying it's okay. The society thinks it's okay that you know,
we're sad, we're upset, we cry with our friends, we lament,
we go over things, we you know, go to our tribe,
that sort of thing. Whereas for a male that's.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Not okay according to social constructs that need to be
pulled apart. That's what I yes, so for me, like
and the challenge is again, I think what happens is
for men. Because women have this social permission to be
able to cry together and be together and all that
sort of stuff, a lot of men look to women
for that kind of healing rather than looking to each other.
(37:06):
And we because we don't look to each other, if
we can't find a woman to be able to support
us in a in a teky space, we blame women
for the fact that we can't heal. So the problem
is that we aren't showing up for each other that's
our biggest problem as a culture for men is that
we are not showing up for each other. We don't
invite like I was lucky, right, I spoke about that earlier.
(37:27):
I was lucky to have my mate and my brother
who would call me and say, hey, how you doing,
How you going today? Do you want to come and
have dinner with us? Or do you want to watch
the footy on Friday night. Lots of blokes are not
doing that. They're like, oh, tough enough, mate, you'll be right,
don't worry about it. Yeah, she'd be right. You'll find
someone new, move on, get on with it. And he's
sitting there struggling. He's sitting there saying, man, I just
can't believe she left me, and you know, I just
(37:48):
want to I can't get her out of my head
and I don't know how to deal with it. And
he's sitting there, I just get over it. He's clearly
going to struggle to get over it. And for that
bloke who think who's thinking around control, dominance and power,
he might think the only way to get over it
is taking her life, you know. So we need to
is to take absolute control. So we need to show
(38:08):
up better as men. As a culture, we need to
recognize that it is our responsibility to end them our
laring this epidemic. It is our responsibility to support other
men where we know that men are you know, seventy
five percent of suicides in Australia, eight men each day
take their own lives. So we need to show up
for each other. We need to support each other. You know,
(38:29):
the the ninety six percent of violent crime is perpetrated
by men, and we are hanging out with other men
as we talk about the things that we're going to do.
We need to hold each other accountable. We need to
talk to each other about how we can choose make
different choices, better choices that not only support our own
mental health and wellbeing, but the wellbeing of all the
people around us, including our partners.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Is it antif ask your personal question, you said earlier
on there were things about extent that you decided you
need to take a step back from. At the end
of their relationship which you left him, did he still
try and be friends with you like? Or was he
just getting on with this life? And no one would
have known anything at all? There? Weren't you know, like,
(39:14):
no one knew what was. Obviously, no one knows what's
going on in anyone's need at any one time. But
when she was murdered and it was such a violent,
god awful day, because I do remember it, did it
just completely come out of the blue?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I you know, it did, definitely for all of us.
But when I reflect on the last couple of months
of their lives, I showed up for Hande as much
as I could in the course of her separation and
leaving him and all that sort of stuff. There was
a period of time after she had left where he
(39:51):
was talking to me about how I need to stop
showing up her, I need to stop being friends with her,
and I need to I'm his friend. I should be
supporting him. You know, she's trying to take the kids away.
None of this was true, by the way, She was
not trying to take the kids away. She offered fair
custody and shared custody, and he refused because he wanted
to make sure he could maintain control of her. You know,
I showed up as much as I could, and I
(40:13):
was there for her as much as I could. But
there were experiences that I'd had with him where I
was concerned or I became more and more concerned that
he was only getting worse for her the more I
showed up. You know, if if with her and I
had a conversation, i'd find out a couple of days
later that he'd taken the kids or without knowing what,
he'd held on to them for longer than he should
have without contacting her. And it just in the experience
(40:37):
I was having that every time I talked to her,
he seemed to do something to make her more uncomfortable,
to make her life more challenging, and so I thought
that I was making it worse just by staying in
contact with him. I'd stopped contact with him because it
got to the point where I was like, look, mate,
I don't I can't be in this position where you're
(41:00):
constantly telling me I can't be friends with someone I
want to who's a good friend of mine and to
be You know, every time I try and talk to you,
you're trying to tell me how it's the rest of
the world's problem that this is happening, and you're not
wanting to take any ownership for the things. Showing me
a police report that she had implemented because he took
(41:21):
off with Leana, the middle child, and in that police
report was just stuff that had shown that he'd done
some wrong things and telling me that everyone had made
it up, the ten witnesses also, And I was like, so,
it's really hard to show up for you when you're
not willing to understand that this is where you need
to come to the table. And I became worried that
every time I contacted Hand because I'd stopped talking to him,
(41:42):
he kept on escalating, he kept on doing something I'd
never thought, not for a second, that he would ever
take their lives. I thought potentially he might take his own,
because he was quite depressed in his presentation. But I
tried my best to talk to people who knew him,
a couple of mates of mine who were good mates
with him, to just see how are you checking in
(42:03):
on him? Is he doing okay? And then and then
about two weeks before had died, I stopped talking to
her because it seemed like the best thing to do
at the time.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Was he listening to you guys.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
It seemed as like stuff that we found out since
then was that he had sort of recording devices and
stuff placed in different places in the car and in
the house, and there were conversations she'd had with her
mum over the phone that he knew about that there
was no way he could have known unless he was
listening in. He only heard her part of the conversation.
So and because I'd stopped talking to her, she'd sent
(42:42):
me a message about a CrossFit comp and I didn't
reply to the message because I was worried that he
was seeing it. He had access to her social media
and I didn't know that that had been stopped. She
had a phone burn a phone that he had found
one day when he snuck into Sue and Lloyd's house.
(43:03):
So I was worried that maybe you'd done something when
he found that phone. So I didn't reply. And then
she messaged again and she said, I'm sorry, I just
missed my friend. And I still didn't reply. And a
few days later it was the nineteenth February. And although
(43:26):
it happened out of the blue, some part of me
must have learned something. Otherwise I never would have stopped
talked to her. And if we go back to what
I said earlier, but if someone talks to you about
their experience, just show up for them as best you can,
(43:50):
as much as you can, and when it becomes hard
for you, seek the support you need, look after yourself
in ways that allow you to show up again. There's
nothing I regret more than those last ten days I
(44:11):
sitting by my phone and staring at her phone number
and doing nothing. So do what you can to keep
showing up.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
It's five years?
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Is it this week tomorrow?
Speaker 2 (44:27):
And what are you going to do to celebrate Hannah.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
We have been very lucky in the development of the
whole program to be able to receive funding that allows
us to access all schools in Queensland. We're at no
cost to the schools and there were some schools that
have really supported us in our journey and one school
in South Britain maybel Park as their rugby league cohort
(44:54):
has really supported us with jerseys and all sorts of things.
And so we get to go tomorrow, the nineteenth of
February to deliver one of our Halt Conversations or our
whole program to a group of year seven eight girls
who play rugby league. That's our first group with them.
We're going to grow it in their community there and
talk to more people, but we're going to have a
conversation about the legacy that is being left for on
(45:16):
behalf of Hannah, Alia, Leander and Trey and invite all
those young people to be part of it. So that
will be a big, really important way for us to
celebrate the lives and handing the kids to talk about
them through their courage, their determination, and empathy, their love.
We get to share that with a group of young
people who, no doubt I'm looking for it.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
If there are organizations out there, not necessarily schools, but
other organizations that want to get on top, you know,
really work at the grassroots on what's appropriate conversation behavior,
not just you know, young men to women, but young
women to men to each other, just being respectful. They
(45:56):
can reach.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Out absolutely too. What's the best way? So if you
can go to our website or you can reach out
to She's an amazing human. Inquiries E N Q U
I R I E S at Small Steps four the
number four Hannah dot com dot au. So inquiries at
small Steps for Hannah dot com dot au. Send an email.
(46:19):
We can connect and talk about how we can communicate
safe and respect relationships in your community. Also myself at
Underscore Dave Kramer on Instagram. If you want to check
that out, you'll get a bit more of an idea
of the messaging A big core of what I do,
and I've been privileged to do the work a lot
with a lot of organizations that have maldominated workforces, so
(46:40):
a lot of construction, a lot of mining, roadside assistance.
There's lots of different organizations I've worked with with large
cohorts of men. Because I recognize the opportunity we have
as men to create a safer culture. It's important that
we recognize that accountability is a really, really big part
of that, but support is as well, and what I
try to do is offer the support that men need
(47:01):
to understand who they are in this space and how
we can step into it, whilst also doing what's needed
to hold ourselves and those around us accountable to behaviors
that are a standard better than what we've seen before us.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
I will add those details to the show notes. I
will also re add the Lady Musgrave Trust has that
amazing book. There's rural one as well as city directory
on places and information if you are experiencing domestic violence
or coercive control. It goes through everything that you might need.
(47:35):
And I know Victoria did say that Sue and Lloyd
has said. Lloyd had said that, you know, if they
had no one about this, it may have helped them
a little bit more with Hannah. So I will also
add link for that for everybody, but just take time
to pause tomorrow, have a little thought for Hannah and
the kids. They're looking at us from heaven. Dave, thank
(47:57):
you so much for chatting, for your honesty, Like we
need more men like you in this world, and you know,
I think you're doing everything you can to actually make
that happen. I think we just need to have the conversations,
and the more we normalize the conversations, the easier is
going to get. And I just yeah, thank you they're
(48:22):
taking the time today.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Thank you so much for having me and for you know,
if there are men listening, or women who know men,
or people who know men listening, invite them to have
a conversation with me, because I know there are lots
of other men out there who think and believe like
I do and just want to know what to do
to be able to contribute, to actively contribute to the
safety of all those around them. I know you're doing
(48:44):
the best you can. There's just a few more things
we can do, and I'd love to invite you to
be part of that with me, so you reach out.
Thanks He for having me me, Oh my pleasure. Thank
you
Appogie Production.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi, my name's beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
to be, so.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I hit it and parked it for Nelly four years.
We always have free will, We always get to choose.
We are autonomous. Welcome everyone to Tenderness for Nurses. Today
we have Day Pramer chatting with us for Small Steps
for Hannah and his program which is called the Wholt
Program of where he goes into schools and talks boys
(00:43):
and girls about appropriate behavior of men. But before we
go any further, I really just want to let you
all know that we will be discussing domestic violence in
this episode and there may be some triggering conversations. So
if you find this difficult to listen to, please, by
all means just pop it on the back burner and
(01:04):
move onto the next podcast. But I just want to
let you know that there will be some conversations that
may be hard to listen to.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Welcome Dave, thanks for having me back. I appreciate you
having me.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Oh, I'm just delighted that you could come in and
have a chat with it. So just give us a
little bit of a background on you and your story
and how you are where you are now sitting in
the chair opposite me.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
So I guess a few years ago, in about twenty eighteen,
twenty nineteen, I started studying psychology and I was thinking
about working towards an organizational well being career, focusing on
you know, how organizations can set up structures to support
staff or employee well being. Then about a year and
a bit into the degree, at the beginning of twenty twenty,
many people around Brisbane, Australia would have heard of the
(01:49):
death of Hannah Clarke and her three children on the
nineteenth of February twenty twenty and her three children lost
their lives to Hans ex partner, Rowan Baxter. Baxter, as
I said, was hands ex partner. He was the children's father,
and he was also a man I knew for some
time for about eight years, and for some of that
(02:10):
time I called him a friend or I thought of
him as a friend up until close towards the end
of the line. And while I was studying psychology, I
was reflecting on what had happened, what I'd seen, and
I decided that while I wanted to support well being.
I wanted to do it from a different perspective. I
wanted to look at how do we prevent these horrific
tragedies from happening? And so I started to look into that,
(02:30):
and I guess what I recognized in all the things
that I had seen and what the research was saying,
and how we can prevent it. I started to realize
a lot of things that I could have done. I
started to look at all the things that I could have,
would have should have done to divert Baxter off the
path that he was on, and realized that there was
a space for me to start having conversations with people
(02:52):
to support safety, to support respect. And it initially began
with going into organizations and starting to have these conversations
about what it looks like before it happens and what
we can do to take some steps and take some
action in those spaces. And then, alongside the advice of
Sir and Lloyd Clark, Kanner's parents, the children's grandparents, they
wanted to really look at the future and they wanted
(03:12):
to start to understand, well, what are young people seeing
and experiencing in their relationships and how do we help
them be safe and respectful, and so I said that
I could develop based on the research I was doing.
In the work I was doing, I can develop a
program that is age appropriate, that is research BACS, that
is supportive of young people contributing to safe and respect
for relationships. And through a year of development, we are
(03:33):
an elite year of research. We looked into what can
we do to develop a respect for Relationships program for
kids in high school? So year seven to twelve students
and I developed the plan and a program based on
what the research said, what the literature said about respect
for relationships programs, how they work, whether up here in
Australia or overseas, and I also based it on the
perspectives of teachers and parents and adults who work with
(03:56):
young people. Delivered that late in twenty twenty three, and
the people, the young people who pat took part in
the program just didn't like it, to be honest. They
were like, it's not meeting us where we're at. You know,
we get all the red flags, we see all of
that education. No one is talking to us about how
to have respectful conversations when we're struggling. No one's talking
(04:17):
to us about what it actually looks like to be
in a safe and healthy relationship. They just keep telling
us red flag this and red flag that and call
your mates out when it's not even safe to do that. Like,
we just don't feel like that's going to work for us.
So I sat back and I started listening to young people,
and over the course of the last year, between that
point of twenty twenty three and to the end of
(04:37):
sorry middle of twenty twenty four, we got another We
redeveloped the program and facilitated that with a group of
year eleven and twelve students, and the feedback we got
from that has now given us the opportunity to present
a program across across Australia that works with young people
from the position they're at, so not from the end
of the line where we see cases like that like hand,
(04:57):
but where we actually sit with them in their experience
and understand what does a safe and respectful relationship look
like and how do we actively contribute to it.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
You're just talking about that and going into the schools
and I hate to admit it, I am a maths tragic.
Well this season I have been quite disturbed the gas
lighting and the behavior, and I do know it's edited
of two male teachers that have been on that program.
(05:28):
I mean, what sort of signal is that then sending?
I mean maths in general is just horrendous. Let's be honest.
But they've got two male teachers that have been on
that program and their behavior on that program and the
things that they said were so toxic and so awful.
Are you dealing with the teachers not just the students.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, that's a really really good question. So our goal
really is to create a shift in culture. We want
to see a culture that supports safety for all people.
So we recognize and even some of the teachers tell
us from some schools that for the students, their experiences
can be sometimes that if it's a female teacher in
the room or a female substitute teacher, that can be
(06:09):
really hard. They walk in the room and the kids
are just going running riots and then a male pops
his head through the door, and a male teacher pops
his head through the door, and all of a sudden,
the students like well bitters, straighten up and sit down,
straighten out. Because there's some old school rules that people
are still playing right, playing by right. So in the home,
dad is the disciplinarian. He makes the rules and he
rules the roost. And these old school rules are feeding
(06:32):
their way into the behaviors in the school and what
children or young people think respect, who deserves respect, risk
in that sort of perspective. So we do have conversations
with the We invite everyone to attend the conversation because
the conversation we have, although it's age appropriate, it's relevant
for everyone. Yeah, we unpack identity, we unpack emotions, we
unpack critical and crucial conversations, we unpack how to communicate effectively.
(06:57):
All it's all ways, and how do we role model
safety and respect in front of our students or with
each other? And yeah, while we do have teacher PD
sessions that we do run with some schools when they
have the capacity to do so so well, our ultimate
goal is to run to have a program where we
can go in for a day and speak with the
(07:19):
year seven and eight students, the year nine and ten students,
the year eleven and twelve students, and then after school
with the teachers about everything that we teach.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Let's just pack that and put that aside for a moment.
I want to go back to you because you know
the podcast is about tennis nurses, but in general, like, honestly,
we're talking about tennis for everyone. How did you look
after you when everything transpired with Hannah and did you
(07:47):
have support people around you? I mean, I look at
her parents and the remarkable work they're doing. I don't
know if I could ever have moved the way they
have moved. I mean, they just are amazing. Or yourself,
how did you look after yourself during that time? I
mean it must have been horrifically bleak.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, I guess something I might have forgotten to mention
earlier is that, you know, I had known them for
about eight years and over that course, at that time,
Hanna and I had developed a really close friendship and
she'd become my best friend absolutely, and the three kids,
Leanna and Trey were like my niece, nieces and nephew,
(08:30):
so I love them like family. And so when that
happened in the way that it did, especially, I mean
the fact that they were gone was hard enough, but
the way that happened, there were a lot of things
that I had to work through with the grief that
I experienced and still do, so I kind of went
into a hole as a habit as the way that
I'd survived things. You know, in my life, I had
(08:56):
adhered to the social rules that existed around me. Around
you know, men, we don't speak about our emotions. We
shut it down until it goes away. And I was
very lucky, very lucky that I had people around me
who are willing to force me to break those rules.
You know. I had my brother who would call and
(09:16):
check in and force me out of the house, you know,
like I had my brother and his wife and my
two nephews who are all beautiful people, and they would
just want me to spend time with them, invite me
over for Friday night watching the footy and having dinner
with them and just talking and being around them. And
I had a really good mate as well, him and
his girlfriend fiance. They would, you know, after because I
(09:41):
did a lot of CrossFit at the time, and after training,
they would let's get dinner, let's have a chat, let's
see how you go on, And I'd go to their
place and hang out on times that were tough to
be by myself. So as much as I wanted to
be by myself because I thought that was the thing
I needed, it really wasn't. And you know when we're struggling.
We I think a lot of men tend to believe
(10:02):
that being by yourself is what you need. And there
are moments of silence, and there are moments of solitude
that you do need. But ultimately we need community if
we're going to get through those really hard times. We
need community. And I was really lucky to have people
in my life at the time who who were willing
to help me step away from that solitude and into
community so that I could I could heal properly. Then
(10:24):
my dogs, my dogs are very important to me. Oh
I get that. They were like when no one else
is around, they were there always, so.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
They know, they know when you need them and they're
on you or beside you or I mean, I know
Lola has been my little saving grace and now I've
got Samuel Ford as well. But they just know, you know,
and their foods with the soul added animals, they truly are.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Absolutely you know. There was a place and we used
to go to all of us used to go to
the beach on the Gold Coast. There was a dog
beach on one side and then people on the other
and there were times oftentimes where we would go we
would sort of coincidentally both be there. I'd be on
the dog beach side and they would be on the
(11:11):
on the family beach side, and then we'd go to
the cafe and have coffee and catch up, you know,
everyone involved. And then there were days where we all
went together and spent time with them. And so every
now and again part of that process of healing was
going to that place and just being there in a
place where we shared really fond memories, just to just
to be with that those moments.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
That'd be really tough.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Though, Yeah, yeah, a bit of a.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Double edged sword that you want to be there and
you want to remember, but it's also painful.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
To remember it is. That's the that was always the battle,
you know, like kind of go into a place where
you're like, what's the.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Do you want me to change the subject?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
It's okay, you know, what's the point in loving people
so deeply? What's the point in connecting so strongly? If
something like this can happen And it takes a lot
of time to get to the point that the point
is to have those moments, to go to the beach,
(12:16):
to have little Leana sitting on the front of the
paddle board, or to swim out to the middle of
the canal with the with the with the two girls
because they were big enough to wear you know, life
vests and swim out to the middle, and to have
them feel like they can trust me and they can
feel safe with me, and we can swim all the
way across and back and they can do it laughing
(12:37):
and smiling. You know, the workouts that we got to do, well,
we got to play tag with the kids before I
started the workout. You know, all of those moments are
That's the point. And as hard as it is, because
for my whole life, I'd kind of kept people at
(12:57):
a distance. That was how I'd lived my life because
it was through childhood and lots of other things that
I'd experienced, I decided that being close was not safe.
But and little Leana had a way of breaking down
those walls. Han just she was all about making you happy,
making you smile. Like I did not know what was
(13:18):
going on in her world at the time. For a
long period of time of that friendship that we created,
there was only probably the last year where I got
insight to understand what she was experiencing. And even then
I could never understand what she was going through, But
it didn't matter for her that she was going through that.
What she cared about was that everyone else was happy.
And she just had an energy about her that made
(13:41):
you want to be around her, that made you want
to smile, that made everything more enjoyable. And Leana just
had this depth of empathy for a four year old
girl who could barely see her in my knee. She
was just full of empathy for everyone and that kind
of you know, it pulls your guard down and it
makes you want to connect.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Do you think Hannah knew that? I mean, it's it's
a newer term coerce of control. Do you think she
understood what he was doing was?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I think she knew it didn't feel good, She knew
she didn't want to be involved with him for a
period of time. She knew she didn't want to be
with him for a period of time. She didn't know
what coercive control was, nor did I and or did
many people in her life. Most people before twenty twenty
didn't know about it. There were a lot of people
who started to learn of it after Alison Baiden Clay
(14:33):
in twenty twelve and her family and the work they've done,
and Vanessa Palla continues to do amazing work in that space.
But it wasn't something that was on our radar at all.
Course of control domestic violence was, but I think for
a lot of us it was domestic violence. We thought
physical abuse is domestic violence. We didn't think all of
the things that Hanne was experiencing, the emotional abuse, the isolation,
(14:53):
the taking her away or driving wedges between her brother
and her, her best friend and her parents and her like,
the trying to keep her away from other people, not
allowing her to get have a career, and ensuring that
she had part time work because he thought that he
should be providing even though the gym was failing, not
allowing her to go out with her friends, or not
allowing her to wear particular items of clothing, blaming her
(15:15):
for everything that went wrong in their relationship, in their gym,
whatever it might be, even if he was completely and
totally responsible for it. It was all of this lack
of accountability and the deflection of blame and control as
well it can be, but some people are just assholes.
So I do hear the excuse the language, but I
(15:36):
do hear the I do hear the narcissistic stuff come
up a lot? And it is and I think you know,
shows like Maps have created popularity around terms like gas
lighting and narcissism where it can be used irresponsibly. It
can be used appropriately, but it can also be used irresponsibly.
And I think our first step when it comes to
(15:57):
understanding people who are using these particular types of behaviors
that are controlling or minimizing or blaming, we should look
to diagnose that person with a condition. We should look
to how we can hold them accountable to those behaviors
to see if we can start to change or create
some change for them. If we go straight to a diagnosis,
it almost feels like it's well, it's unchangeable. We can't
(16:17):
do anything about that. He's an arcissist. It's over. When
if we start with well, he's behaving badly or he's
doing things that are not okay, we can move towards accountability.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
But just from past things that have happened with me,
I'm not very good at confrontation at the best times,
let alone confrontation with a male. I'm married to the
most beautiful man, and my family and the men in
my life are very special and kind and very loving,
but just and once again just using mass as an example,
(16:49):
a part from the fact I'd be in the corner
rocking if I was in a relationship or having the
conversations that those people are having with each other and
how they're having it. If someone is talking inappropriately to you,
how do you stop them or do you just go, hey,
I'm out, need to go for walk, or you know,
if there's bullying in the workplace, or you know, a
(17:11):
patient is saying inappropriate things, or how should someone deal
with that? I am and I'm saying I'm pretty like
I remember as a young student some of the things
that we said were very inappropriate or touching the bum
or you know, there was stuff that really we look
back then and we used to laugh about it, but
now you're not.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Going to go, oh God, it's kind of like a oh,
we're just we just have to deal with it. Or
there's all these sayings like tough en up and get
on with and all that sort of stuff, And for me,
it's not about putting more onus or pressure on the
person who's experiencing that behavior, who's been subjected to that behavior. Right,
if someone's touching you inappropriately. Then it should be on
those around you who are not being put in a
(17:52):
vulnerable position to be able to do something. And I
try to invite the rest of it. I mean, if
it's a one on one situation, it's really challenging. And
if we're talking about domestic violence and coercid control, there's
just no way that someone who's experiencing that behavior can
turn around to their partner and say, hey, stop doing that.
They're just not in a position of power to be
able to do that. That's the point of that that
the person who's using the behavior is the person who's
(18:14):
perpetrating those behaviors. The point of it is to gain
power and control and dominance. So for the person who's
subjected to it, there's just no safe place for them
to say, I don't like that, I'm leaving, And often
leaving can be a really really traumatic thing that can happen.
And so what I try to do is put the
onus on those around you know, if we're seeing things
or hearing things or witnessing things, we should be doing
(18:36):
something about it. And some of those things could be
if we're seeing someone touch someone inappropriate, if it's in
the workplace especially, or we don't do that here. That's
not allowed in our workplace, even if it is a
patient who doesn't work there. We have rules, right, And
I've seen in many hospitals there's posters on the wall
that say respect our staff, pointing to that sign and saying,
this is not respecting our stuff. I need you to start.
(18:57):
Respecting our staff is one of the things that we
can do. You know, you obviously have an obligation to
look after the people who come into the hospital, but
it may be a process whereby you can step away
from and someone else can step into supporting that.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah, and there are nurses that are all over that
sort of stuff, And that's why I never was an
emergency department nurse because I just don't have too much softy,
you know. And I'm not saying that those guys aren't.
They just are probably that little bit quicker off the
bat than I am. When it comes to, you know,
thinking up something smart back to someone, I'm not that person.
(19:36):
So when it comes to a position of say, for example,
one of your colleagues comes into the workplace and they're
a nurse or a healthcare professional, and you know, we
are educated in a lot of domestic violence. We are
all now being educated in coast of control that sort
of thing. And a colleague shared with you about what's
going on at home, what could you, as a colleague
(20:00):
slash workmate friend, what could you advise them to do?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
The most important thing to do is to believe them
when they say this is what I'm experiencing. We want
them to be able to sit there with the experience
of being believed, because if they're sharing this with a colleague,
it's likely that they've tried sharing it before and other
people have either minimized their experience or said, I'm sure
it's not that big of a deal, don't worry about it.
Often comes from a good place, if I'm being honest.
(20:26):
Often we're seeing they go, oh, I don't think it's
that bad, because you don't want it to be that bad.
You want it to be okay. I'm like, oh, that
sounds really bad, but I think it'll just pass with time.
I think that's or he's probably going through a hard time.
You know, if he's going through a hard time, then
maybe he does these leads. You'll probably be fine soon.
It comes from a place of I hope you're okay.
(20:46):
It actually comes from a place of I want you
to be okay. But for the person who's hearing that,
it can be really minimizing of their experience. It can
devalue what they're trying to say about their experience. It
can sometimes be gaslighting. I'm not seeing what I'm actually seeing.
It's not actually as bad as I think it is.
So rather than showing up in a way that we
(21:08):
recognize our discomfort in that experience. Because I know if
someone were to come to me and hand did and
if someone were to go to you and talk someone
you care about said i'm struggling with this in the home,
you'd be deeply uncomfortable with it, and you'd want to
get them out as quick as possible.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yep, yeap.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
The challenge for us is to try and set that
aside and to say to them, to say to them,
I'm really sorry, this sounds really hard. You can say
I believe you, because they might not have heard that before.
I believe you, and I want to be here for you.
And then if we can to give them some agency
around that, because likely what they're experiencing in the home
is a complete disempowerment of their ability to make choices
(21:44):
and decisions. So to say something like I'm sorry, I
believe you, I want to be here from you. If
you can just let me know how that looks, I'll
show up however you need. Then that can help them
to start to think that, oh, I'm capable of making
these decisions because the person in the home isn't allowing
them to make those. As much as we might have
had our own experience, as much as we might have
(22:05):
heard so many other people's experiences, everyone's experience is unique.
And so to say to them, I actually don't have
any answers for you here, but I do know that
I'll be here with you can be really reassuring for
them because they probably don't have any answers either, and
they're probably not looking for answers. They're probably just looking
for someone to sit, listen, and believe. And if we
can do that in that space, then over time we
(22:28):
can potentially say, hey, I've looked up some resources around
what we spoke about. Is there anything you would like
to look into? Again, offering them the agency to make
the choice to look into some things rather than saying, hey,
I look this stuff up. You really need to look
into it, because that can be again pressure and control.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I would assume if it's a domestic violence situation, it's
not like they can go home with that information, can they.
So it has to be done in a very subtle,
careful manner so as not to trigger the perpetrator at home.
Am I correct in that assumption?
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah? Definitely. I mean asking them what's the safest way
to communicate with you? You know, do you have an
email address that he doesn't have any access to or
they don't have any access to? What about your work computers?
Is that a place where they can't access the things
that are on that computer? Can you save things there?
Have you spoken to people in your workplaces? There're someone
safe you can talk to there? Or if it is
in the workplace, is you would you like to go
(23:24):
and speak to this team sure about this particular thing.
I know a lot of workplaces are doing their work
to ensure those who are surviving domestic violence have ultimate
email addresses, for example, or they have separate bank accounts
where pays can go into separate there's portions of the
pay can go into a separate payment channel. Paid domestic
violence leave is also very.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Helpful, so that is the thing now, Yes.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, absolutely, So all workplaces in Australia have to offer
ten days paid domestic violence leave.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, yeah, so that's important for everyone to know that,
and the leave can be used for anything in relation
to that. Each organization works with what they can to.
The main thing to know is that every organization should
have an obligation to also ensure that it doesn't show
up as domestic violenestly, it's personally, or it's you know,
it's a part of your your annually, whatever it might be.
(24:16):
That's how it will show up on any printer document
or anything like that. Those who need to know in
the organization know, but.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
No one else does.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
No one else knows.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
That's fabulous. So when was that past?
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Oh? Where are we now? Was last year? Well it
might have been twenty twenty three. As I said earlier,
the years are getting led together at the moment. But yeah,
it's been it's been around for a little while. We've
been talking about it in some of the organizations for
a little while, how to access it and what it
can look like when you do access it. Some people
are really worried about having to give evidence and Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
How does someone prove that that is the situation or
they're just like the doctor's certificate. I mean, then going
to the doctor's tough because you don't want to be
discussing that with your doctor. Maybe maybe not.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, I would believe it. In all the organizations I've
I worked with, it is they generally have a you know,
it's safe to take this lead without having to provide
us with all the documentation you might need to give
to the police or whatever else it might be. And
generally it's a case by case. You know, you talk
to the people you need to talk to within the organization,
make the application, and you know, the process from start
(25:24):
to finish is anonymous, so from those who need to know, no,
but everything else is kept out of there.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
One of the questions that I really wanted to ask
you was what is toxic masculinity? And how do we
talk to our sons and daughters about appropriate speech regarding women.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
So it depends on who you ask when it comes
to toxic masculinity. I saw a video the other day
where someone posted them doing a few workouts and wrestling
with their son, and it said, if this is toxic masculinely,
then we need more of it. And that's not toxic
masculinity at all. It's just people doing workouts and wrestling
and having a bit of fun. And you know, there's
combat sports and people are trying to say, well, we
(26:07):
should be allowed to do this without being called toxic,
and yeah, of course you should. There's you know, there's
lots of things that you can do and participate in
without it being toxic. But it's when it becomes toxic
that it becomes a version of toxic masculinity. So when
with masculinity, I guess it's a bunch of rules or
constructs that we've set up underneath an identity around masculinity
(26:28):
and Masculinely, when I talk to students about it, I'll say,
you know, who do we normally associate with masculinity? And
they'll say men, okay, So what does it mean to
be a man? And they'll come up with a bunch
of characteristics around what it means to be a man.
To be tough, to be strong, to have power in
your relationships, to make all the decisions, to be a leader,
to earn lots of money, and you should drive fast
(26:51):
cars or big cars. You should drink beer.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
You should these are the answers you're getting.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
From young people. Yeah, it's from all people actually, in fact,
like it's a rigid stereotype around what it means to
be a man or to be mainly even the way
you look. You know, you should be muscly, you should
be tall, you should have facial hair, be stronger than
other people, or the strongest or alpha or dominant, you know,
top dog, top g. They use these terms as well
with young people, and then we talk about, okay, well,
(27:20):
what happens if someone doesn't adhere to these rules? You know,
if what happens if Dave, for example, says to his mates, fellas,
I'm not going to come to the footy tonight, I'm
going to stay in and watch the Barbie movie instead,
what kind of names does Dave get called? Yeah? And
this is where the language, again, it causes harm to
all all people. And that's where we really need to recognize.
The problem is not in the words themselves. So young
(27:41):
people will often use words like simp which means that
he is. So if Dave says I'm going to watch
the Bobbie movie with my girlfriend, it basically means Dave
simping for her, which for young boys means that every
time Dave dogs the boys for his girlfriend, then he's simping.
He's being a woos and going and hanging out with
her instead of hanging out with the boys.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
You need to take a couple of steps back in
dogs someone.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Sorry when he ditches the boys to hang out with
his girlfriend. When Dave ditches the boys, this is their
young language I've adopted. But anyway, when Dave ditches the
boys to hang out with the with his girlfriend, that's
him simping. He's he's just trying to chase her and
he's trying to get after her. That kind of thing.
What when I talk to young girls about and I say, well,
(28:28):
what does it mean for someone to be a simp?
They say they say that anytime my boyfriend shows me
an ounce of respect, his mates will bully him until
he disrespects me. And what that disrespect can look like
is in a group chat, for example, where Dave said,
I'm not coming to the game tonight, I'm watching the
Barbie Moe with my girlfriend. But they'll use all of
this language to try and bully him into ditching her
(28:49):
and going hanging out with them. And if he doesn't
do that. He might go, yeah, well look at this
picture she sent me last night, and send that in
the group chat, and then that's where it becomes. That's
where the impact is, right, because the boy, he thinks,
I just need to get back into that space where
what it looks like to be a man, right, Be tough,
be in control, be dominant in your relationship, be a
man who sleeps with a bunch of different women. You know,
(29:10):
that's what it means to be a man. So he
shares that picture in the group chat, and all the
boys like, oh, Dave's back on the team. But for her,
the very different story that gets told because potentially the
next day she goes to school not knowing that picture
has been sent and nor that it should have ever
been sent to these other fellas, and they've shared it
with everyone else in their school, and she's gone to
(29:31):
school with that experience and what we're seeing.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
It's a very different experience to what they've experienced.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
The boys think they're having a bit of fun and banter.
She's experienced something completely different where she is now being isolated, bullied, harassed,
and ostracized, and she's ashamed of the fact that everyone
is seeing this picture, and she's feeling judged, she's feeling
like she's done the wrong thing. And then when people
say when she goes to look for support about it,
(29:57):
people will say, well, why did you send the picture?
Rather than saying he should never have passed that on,
that will go to her and blame her for the
fact that it was ever sent to in the first place.
And I think what we need to start to do
is give her space to feel unashamed and to feel okay,
and to feel safe and to feel secure, and then
to hold the right people accountable for doing the wrong
(30:18):
thing for sharing on. And obviously there are conversations that
need to be had about sharing imagery and all that
sort of stuff that needs to happen, but if we're
getting to this point, and we're at this point, the
conversation should be around how we can support her to
feel safe and secure, because we've seen examples of this
in Queensland recently where a young girl had taken her
life after an experience like this.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Well, interestingly, my daughter recently got a message in her
inbox now closed twenty five from one of her really
dear friend's ex boyfriends. These guys are twenty five, twenty six,
he messaged her asking her now hasn't had any contact
with her for years, nothing, asking her for a need
(30:58):
need image. Now she's in a long term relationship, lives
in America, and he messaged her asking her to send
nuds just out of the blue, out of the blue,
and so she straight away sent it onto like the
message onto all the really good friends that dump this guy.
And when her partner came home, she showed him and
(31:19):
he goes, can you just message him back? You're dead
from the neck up. I don't know what had transpired
in that time, but he then had blocked her, which
is great, But this is, you know, an adult male
out of the blue asking for someone to send the
nudes in this day and well.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
It comes from entitlement. It comes from a belief that
he's entitled to have that those images. And he's, oh,
we know each other, it's fine, just send him, you know.
It's it's a belief that he's better than it. You know,
he's better than her and everyone else. And if I
send this out, I'll get enough back, you know. It's
just and that's that's the real challenge in I think,
(31:59):
especially for young people is, and Sheel Contos talks about
this in her book Consent Made Bare. The entitlement and
empathy gaps, So the lack of empathy that young boys
might be building in their experience of young women and
their experiences of the world and their entitlement that overlays
that with an entitlement to their bodies, their images, their
(32:21):
experiences of them. So we have to break that down.
You have to help them understand that just because this
idea of being a man that says you should be
dominant and have power and control and be able to
make all the decisions exists, doesn't mean that it's okay.
Just because that has been the experience of a lot
of people over the course of time doesn't mean that
it's right. We should be able to step outside of
(32:41):
those boundaries and start to create more respectful and safe relationships.
And that's where we talk about how you know, when
Dave steps outside of that boundary, it says I'm going
to hang out with my girlfriend tonight and watch the
Barbie movie. If the boys want to have a bit
of banter and fun and games, that's fine, but what
they need to remember is that there's a boundary that
they might cross and to pull it back from that boundary,
and they're the opportunities we try to give to young people.
(33:04):
We don't want to take away fine and banter and games.
We want to help them to have that in a
way that's safe for everyone and in a way and
help them to understand that there is an impact that
is created from that behavior where they think it's just banter,
but the long term impact is on her and her experience,
and we need to remember that that's that's something where
we need to build empathy for that experience so that
(33:25):
they can start to recognize where we need to pull
back the boundary.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
It's interesting my daughter Chloe has specialized in intel intelligence
and as part of her thesis project for her Masters,
she did it on the bombing in New Zealand in
christ Church. That then led her down a pathway into
in cells, which I'd never heard of, and I'm sure
(33:53):
a lot of listeners have never heard of what an
in cel is. And then I started ask some questions
and she gave me a book to read, no word
of a lie. Three chapters in. I gave it back
to her and I said, you know, I now know
it's good to know when it's opened my eyes. But
there's stuff in here. I don't need to I honestly
(34:13):
don't need to know. I don't know how she was
able to read it to know what's going on online
in these group chats and is in your experience?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
You know?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Is that something the young guys are aware of? Are
they online? Do people go in? Do young men go
in and look at it and then go most go hey,
this isn't for me, or it's quite easy to get
sucked down into that vortex like is this something you
deal with and see?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah? Yeah, The in cell community is I guess growing
because there are role models in that space that sell
very good messages for young people, for young boys especially,
you know, be tough, be in control, earn lots of money,
go to the gym, be motivated, be disciplined, work hard.
These are all very positive messages that young people, young
(35:05):
especially want to aspire to. So they get sucked in
the wall text through those kinds of messages, and then
every now and again they get fed something they like
it's because of women that we have poor mental health,
or it's because of women that we have to work
as hard as we do, and we have to earn
all the money, and they're just going to take all
the money. And then they start thinking thinking like they're
reinforcing these rules or these ideas that they brought into
it based on earn lots of money and be disciplined,
(35:26):
all that sort of stuff. But then they're underlaying or
overlaying those messages with messages of hatred for women and
blame for women for the challenges that men faate, with
no accountability for men whatsoever. And that's where it becomes
this toxic environment for young boys and men where they
think that their experience of mental health perhaps they had
a really heart breakup, they went through a shitty breakup.
(35:49):
And I think for most men or men, we've experienced
jealousy and sadness and anxiety and depression and all of
these experiences in relation to being with a woman or
having a woman in our lives, whether it be among
mothers or our partners or whatever it might be. And
so it's rather than taking responsibility for the emotion and
(36:09):
communicating that and working with people who can help us
seeking support, we just blame those women instead. So it's
their fault that I feel this way. Therefore I should
hate them. Obviously not my perspective, but the perspective of
that kind of in cell community. Women are to blame
for all of these kinds of problems.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
But as a woman and we've had a breakup with
a guy, we've felt all that stuff too. But you're
saying it's okay. The society thinks it's okay that you know,
we're sad, we're upset, we cry with our friends, we lament,
we go over things, we you know, go to our tribe,
that sort of thing. Whereas for a male that's.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Not okay according to social constructs that need to be
pulled apart. That's what I yes, so for me, like
and the challenge is again, I think what happens is
for men. Because women have this social permission to be
able to cry together and be together and all that
sort of stuff, a lot of men look to women
for that kind of healing rather than looking to each other.
(37:06):
And we because we don't look to each other, if
we can't find a woman to be able to support
us in a in a teky space, we blame women
for the fact that we can't heal. So the problem
is that we aren't showing up for each other that's
our biggest problem as a culture for men is that
we are not showing up for each other. We don't
invite like I was lucky, right, I spoke about that earlier.
(37:27):
I was lucky to have my mate and my brother
who would call me and say, hey, how you doing,
How you going today? Do you want to come and
have dinner with us? Or do you want to watch
the footy on Friday night. Lots of blokes are not
doing that. They're like, oh, tough enough, mate, you'll be right,
don't worry about it. Yeah, she'd be right. You'll find
someone new, move on, get on with it. And he's
sitting there struggling. He's sitting there saying, man, I just
can't believe she left me, and you know, I just
(37:48):
want to I can't get her out of my head
and I don't know how to deal with it. And
he's sitting there, I just get over it. He's clearly
going to struggle to get over it. And for that
bloke who think who's thinking around control, dominance and power,
he might think the only way to get over it
is taking her life, you know. So we need to
is to take absolute control. So we need to show
(38:08):
up better as men. As a culture, we need to
recognize that it is our responsibility to end them our
laring this epidemic. It is our responsibility to support other
men where we know that men are you know, seventy
five percent of suicides in Australia, eight men each day
take their own lives. So we need to show up
for each other. We need to support each other. You know,
(38:29):
the the ninety six percent of violent crime is perpetrated
by men, and we are hanging out with other men
as we talk about the things that we're going to do.
We need to hold each other accountable. We need to
talk to each other about how we can choose make
different choices, better choices that not only support our own
mental health and wellbeing, but the wellbeing of all the
people around us, including our partners.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Is it antif ask your personal question, you said earlier
on there were things about extent that you decided you
need to take a step back from. At the end
of their relationship which you left him, did he still
try and be friends with you like? Or was he
just getting on with this life? And no one would
have known anything at all? There? Weren't you know, like,
(39:14):
no one knew what was. Obviously, no one knows what's
going on in anyone's need at any one time. But
when she was murdered and it was such a violent,
god awful day, because I do remember it, did it
just completely come out of the blue?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I you know, it did, definitely for all of us.
But when I reflect on the last couple of months
of their lives, I showed up for Hande as much
as I could in the course of her separation and
leaving him and all that sort of stuff. There was
a period of time after she had left where he
(39:51):
was talking to me about how I need to stop
showing up her, I need to stop being friends with her,
and I need to I'm his friend. I should be
supporting him. You know, she's trying to take the kids away.
None of this was true, by the way, She was
not trying to take the kids away. She offered fair
custody and shared custody, and he refused because he wanted
to make sure he could maintain control of her. You know,
I showed up as much as I could, and I
(40:13):
was there for her as much as I could. But
there were experiences that I'd had with him where I
was concerned or I became more and more concerned that
he was only getting worse for her the more I
showed up. You know, if if with her and I
had a conversation, i'd find out a couple of days
later that he'd taken the kids or without knowing what,
he'd held on to them for longer than he should
have without contacting her. And it just in the experience
(40:37):
I was having that every time I talked to her,
he seemed to do something to make her more uncomfortable,
to make her life more challenging, and so I thought
that I was making it worse just by staying in
contact with him. I'd stopped contact with him because it
got to the point where I was like, look, mate,
I don't I can't be in this position where you're
(41:00):
constantly telling me I can't be friends with someone I
want to who's a good friend of mine and to
be You know, every time I try and talk to you,
you're trying to tell me how it's the rest of
the world's problem that this is happening, and you're not
wanting to take any ownership for the things. Showing me
a police report that she had implemented because he took
(41:21):
off with Leana, the middle child, and in that police
report was just stuff that had shown that he'd done
some wrong things and telling me that everyone had made
it up, the ten witnesses also, And I was like, so,
it's really hard to show up for you when you're
not willing to understand that this is where you need
to come to the table. And I became worried that
every time I contacted Hand because I'd stopped talking to him,
(41:42):
he kept on escalating, he kept on doing something I'd
never thought, not for a second, that he would ever
take their lives. I thought potentially he might take his own,
because he was quite depressed in his presentation. But I
tried my best to talk to people who knew him,
a couple of mates of mine who were good mates
with him, to just see how are you checking in
(42:03):
on him? Is he doing okay? And then and then
about two weeks before had died, I stopped talking to
her because it seemed like the best thing to do
at the time.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Was he listening to you guys.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
It seemed as like stuff that we found out since
then was that he had sort of recording devices and
stuff placed in different places in the car and in
the house, and there were conversations she'd had with her
mum over the phone that he knew about that there
was no way he could have known unless he was
listening in. He only heard her part of the conversation.
So and because I'd stopped talking to her, she'd sent
(42:42):
me a message about a CrossFit comp and I didn't
reply to the message because I was worried that he
was seeing it. He had access to her social media
and I didn't know that that had been stopped. She
had a phone burn a phone that he had found
one day when he snuck into Sue and Lloyd's house.
(43:03):
So I was worried that maybe you'd done something when
he found that phone. So I didn't reply. And then
she messaged again and she said, I'm sorry, I just
missed my friend. And I still didn't reply. And a
few days later it was the nineteenth February. And although
(43:26):
it happened out of the blue, some part of me
must have learned something. Otherwise I never would have stopped
talked to her. And if we go back to what
I said earlier, but if someone talks to you about
their experience, just show up for them as best you can,
(43:50):
as much as you can, and when it becomes hard
for you, seek the support you need, look after yourself
in ways that allow you to show up again. There's
nothing I regret more than those last ten days I
(44:11):
sitting by my phone and staring at her phone number
and doing nothing. So do what you can to keep
showing up.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
It's five years?
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Is it this week tomorrow?
Speaker 2 (44:27):
And what are you going to do to celebrate Hannah.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
We have been very lucky in the development of the
whole program to be able to receive funding that allows
us to access all schools in Queensland. We're at no
cost to the schools and there were some schools that
have really supported us in our journey and one school
in South Britain maybel Park as their rugby league cohort
(44:54):
has really supported us with jerseys and all sorts of things.
And so we get to go tomorrow, the nineteenth of
February to deliver one of our Halt Conversations or our
whole program to a group of year seven eight girls
who play rugby league. That's our first group with them.
We're going to grow it in their community there and
talk to more people, but we're going to have a
conversation about the legacy that is being left for on
(45:16):
behalf of Hannah, Alia, Leander and Trey and invite all
those young people to be part of it. So that
will be a big, really important way for us to
celebrate the lives and handing the kids to talk about
them through their courage, their determination, and empathy, their love.
We get to share that with a group of young
people who, no doubt I'm looking for it.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
If there are organizations out there, not necessarily schools, but
other organizations that want to get on top, you know,
really work at the grassroots on what's appropriate conversation behavior,
not just you know, young men to women, but young
women to men to each other, just being respectful. They
(45:56):
can reach.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Out absolutely too. What's the best way? So if you
can go to our website or you can reach out
to She's an amazing human. Inquiries E N Q U
I R I E S at Small Steps four the
number four Hannah dot com dot au. So inquiries at
small Steps for Hannah dot com dot au. Send an email.
(46:19):
We can connect and talk about how we can communicate
safe and respect relationships in your community. Also myself at
Underscore Dave Kramer on Instagram. If you want to check
that out, you'll get a bit more of an idea
of the messaging A big core of what I do,
and I've been privileged to do the work a lot
with a lot of organizations that have maldominated workforces, so
(46:40):
a lot of construction, a lot of mining, roadside assistance.
There's lots of different organizations I've worked with with large
cohorts of men. Because I recognize the opportunity we have
as men to create a safer culture. It's important that
we recognize that accountability is a really, really big part
of that, but support is as well, and what I
try to do is offer the support that men need
(47:01):
to understand who they are in this space and how
we can step into it, whilst also doing what's needed
to hold ourselves and those around us accountable to behaviors
that are a standard better than what we've seen before us.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
I will add those details to the show notes. I
will also re add the Lady Musgrave Trust has that
amazing book. There's rural one as well as city directory
on places and information if you are experiencing domestic violence
or coercive control. It goes through everything that you might need.
(47:35):
And I know Victoria did say that Sue and Lloyd
has said. Lloyd had said that, you know, if they
had no one about this, it may have helped them
a little bit more with Hannah. So I will also
add link for that for everybody, but just take time
to pause tomorrow, have a little thought for Hannah and
the kids. They're looking at us from heaven. Dave, thank
(47:57):
you so much for chatting, for your honesty, Like we
need more men like you in this world, and you know,
I think you're doing everything you can to actually make
that happen. I think we just need to have the conversations,
and the more we normalize the conversations, the easier is
going to get. And I just yeah, thank you they're
(48:22):
taking the time today.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Thank you so much for having me and for you know,
if there are men listening, or women who know men,
or people who know men listening, invite them to have
a conversation with me, because I know there are lots
of other men out there who think and believe like
I do and just want to know what to do
to be able to contribute, to actively contribute to the
safety of all those around them. I know you're doing
(48:44):
the best you can. There's just a few more things
we can do, and I'd love to invite you to
be part of that with me, so you reach out.
Thanks He for having me me, Oh my pleasure. Thank
you
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