March 22, 2025 • 28 mins
In this segment, Ryan Reed and Paul Sir are joined by Fox Sports' Kevin Lehman to discuss his predictions and takes on March Madness. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome back to the Basketball Show, Paul, Sir Ryan Reed,
joining you this morning on Sports fourteen forty. Happy to
be joined once again by our good friend Kevin Lehman,
longtime voice of men's college basketball, joining us today on
the Basketball Show. Kevin, Welcome to the program. It's great
to have you back, Thanks, Paul.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Glad to be back. How's your bracket doing, because I
got a little red ink on mine.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Mine's you know what, Honestly, mine's not as ugly as
it normally is, Kevin, But it's still ugly, like it
ain't pretty, but usually mine are are train wrecks. Grand
Canyon was not a good choice in the men's bracket, Kevin.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, your history tells you that a good one to
go with.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah, yeah, And I thought they were better than they were,
and certainly then they better were better than they were
last night, and they probably are. But as you know
as well as anybody, the one shining moment can go.
It can be a bright, bright spotlight or it can
be a very dull, disappointing quick exit. And so just
(01:09):
ask Clemson, huh.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, that's what I got wrong with that Clemson team.
But you know, and I saw I had that team
a hold on sec. I gotta knock my window, you
know that. Okay, Okay, I'm back with you.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay that when I heard you need to leave, sir,
I'm thinking, where's Kevin hanging out now?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
But why had that Macnee State team in the Paradise jam? So?
I do as a pretty good team, but there, I
guess I have little trouble today with Purdue.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, they're getting worked right now, but they have their
one shining moment and Clemson woke up far too late,
made a game of it. It was certainly a boy
talk about a tale of two halves.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Huh yeah, no question. Uh. I thought they were gonna
make a cup. I'm back on him, but we've got
you know, they're having a little trouble they with Purdue.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yes, Purdue's the Big Ten defense I think is just
really getting to them, you know, Kevin, I want to
run through some of the matchups today. We're going to
start with our Iowa roots and let's let's talk about
the Drake. The Drake game the other night and they're
victory over Missouri. That really was a special moment for
(02:25):
a whole lot of reasons, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, I had Drake a number of times. I probably
had him twelve times this year, so I kind of
that was not an upset in my mind. I knew
Drake was going to be able to control the tempo
in that game, which they did, and the teams that
try to run with Drake you can't do it. So
if you're going to be Drake, you have to kind
of what I call get down and ugly and play
a game, a dirty game like they are. You got
(02:49):
to beat them at their own style, and that's hard
to do because they control possessions so well well.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
The fact that they have the they are last in
the nc DOUBLEA in terms of time of taking their
shots on average. It's just it's an incredible style of play.
And to me, we were talking about this when we
open the show, it's part of the absolute beauty of
NCUBA basketball. In my opinion, Kevin, is that this is
(03:17):
so unique now globally, certainly compared to the NBA, but
the fact that the international style of play is pretty
much across the board, very very similar. It's people executing
out of the screen and roll with a twenty four
second clock. Coaches are taken out of the flow of
the game because you can't call a timeouts when the ball,
(03:39):
when play is going on the wider key. All of
those factors add up and it's wonderful to watch NCUBA basketball.
So a team like Drake with lesser physical ability can
go against a much more talented team physically and be
able to control the game the way Drake does and
end up being Victoria.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yes, that what's amazing about that, Paul. If you look
at this Drake team, what they do defensively, and I've
been they have an interesting concept in their game preparation.
They don't use scout teams. They just defend what they
call concepts. And they had thirteen steals against that Missouri team.
They averaged nine steals plus per game in valley play.
(04:21):
They led the valley. And this is a team that
doesn't press. They play a half court defense that's really smothering,
and they're really active with their hands. Really well coached team,
and they're going to have they're going to give who
they got to coming up here today? Texas Tech. Yeah,
which you know Grant McCaslin and Ben McCollum are best
of friends. Those teams actually scrimmage and one of those
(04:44):
secret scrimmages back in November, so they know each other
pretty well. I don't know if they'll be able to
sneak up on this Tech team.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Tech team's awfully good. This would be a major upset.
I totally agree with you. I think Tech they're They're
very physical and it's going to be really tough for
Drake to match up with them. And I'm curious to
see how they hand about how the guards handle the
Tech pressure as well.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Well. I tell you what, their spacing is so good
with Drake that pressure hasn't bothered it much. And what
they do is, you know they're going to go through
that pressure and they're gonna pull back out and milk
that shot clock. And that's I think it kind of
mentally wears out on the team trying to press against him.
And if Tech tries to shoot a bunch of threes
like they did the other night, that works against you
(05:31):
because you're gonna go and play defense at the other end.
I had a Bradley game where they're on they were
on defense for a minute twenty against the Drake team.
They never left the half court because they give up
two offensive rebounds.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
That is that That's again the magic of March Madness
is that you get to showcase a team like Drake
that most people A haven't heard of and B haven't
have never had the opportunity to watch up in Canada.
Certainly they're down in the States, you always have access
to it. I'm going to go a little bit down
memory lane right now, just because a lot of people
(06:07):
aren't aware of Drake basketball history. But Drake actually made
it to the Final four, and I want to say
that was nineteen sixty nine with the great Willie Wise,
Dlph Pollium, was it Jeff Halliburton as well, and went
up against and lost to in a very close game
against Louel Cinder Kareem abdul Jabbar's UCLA team.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Correct correct, nineteen sixty nine. And Rick Watamaker, who was
a very successful real estate agent in Des Moines, actually
blocked Leuel Sinder's skyhook. I ever do it? Yeah? Rick
Wantamaker also was a decathlete in the Drake relay. So
you and I got you those names too, you know,
(06:48):
Dulph Pollium, Willie Wise, Willia McCarter, and the fifth starter.
That note, the great trivia question for that team is
the fifth starter was a guy named Don Draper, not
that Don Draper from mad Men, the same name of Don.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
That's tremendous. That's tremendous. Let's jump back to the bracket.
Auburn number one seed overall, number one seed. What do
you think Auburn clearly a favorite to get to the
finals in your opinion?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, I think so. But today hear you got Cockbrenner,
who's the four time Biggies Defensive Player of the Year,
going against you, Denia Broom. So if anybody can halim
one to one, this is a guy that can do it.
Can Creighton shut down that three point shooting and the
other perimeter guys and they don't have to double inside
because of Cockbrinner's size and presence of rounding room. That's
(07:39):
gonna be a great one to one battle in side
between Creyton and Auburn. But I think Auburn, even though
they've lost a couple here of late, that's still my
pick to get to the final four.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I've got them as well going to the Final four.
But another one of their sec counterparts in Florida. They're
awfully tough as well, and they're going to be squaring
off against Yukon I picked Florida in that one Yukon
this year. I mean, they had a nice win last
night over Oklahoma, but they're not the Yukon that won
(08:09):
two national championships in a row, are they.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
They are not. But I will say this about this
game coming up Florida and Yukon. Florida's never been in
this type of pressure exacuation before. They're their coach is
not coast in this situation, and Bobby Heurley has, so
you got to give a little edge to Yukon. And
I don't know if they have enough talent to overcome
this Gater team that is really, really good, and I've
got them winning the whole thing. I'll let that out
(08:34):
of the bag right now. But again, as I think
about Teze, they're not experienced in that area. And you know, Paul,
in this situation, coaching is so important. The coach that
have been there face this type of pressure know how
to get their teams ready because there's so much media,
so much things going on outside the lines that you
have to deal with with your team and prepare them
(08:55):
for that.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
You know, Kevin, one of the differences, and we've touched
on it quite a bit on our program today. Is
the beauty of NCAA basketball is that it really is
the most unique brand of basketball left in the world.
I mean, the NBA is well documented now as a
three point analytics chuckfest, but when you watch international basketball globally,
(09:20):
really the similarities between how teams play with their drag
and screen and roll and spacing, it's so similar. Whereas
when you get to the NC DOUBLEA you really have
not just a variety of styles of play and the
way offenses and defenses are run. But you cannot overstate
(09:40):
what you just pointed out. The impact of coaching is
much greater in the NC DOUBLEA than any other style
of basketball globally, because the coaches can still call timeouts
during the play. You can in the NBA as well,
but that's so different that the narrow key, traditional back
to the basket post players. But the coaching and the
(10:02):
adjustments and the ability to change momentum I think is
accentuated in the NCAA more than anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
That's a great point because have a number of those
timeouts here, those floating timeouts, you can extend the game
at the end by fouling and sitting to a team
to the free to line and in essence trying to
trade threes for twos or threes for ones and extend
games that way. You know, someone's get frustrated because the
end of a college game sometimes take ten minutes to
play the last minute of the game. But also that's
(10:31):
what makes it exciting. I still would love to see
the college game advance the ball after a made basket
on a time out to the half court. I think
that would even add more excitement to that college game.
But I'm right with you, I think the coach is
much more ext inuitd in the in this type of tournament,
and it's a one and done. It's not like in
the NBA where you've got a seven game series. This
(10:52):
is a you know, it's do or diary time you
go out there, if you're going to be If you lose,
you're going to hang up your shoes and the next
team gets to advance. So there's so much pressure on
these types of situations.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I'm talking with Kevin Lehman here on the basketball show
on your sports Leader Sports fourteen forty. Kevin, a couple
of other matchups that I'm really curious about. One is
BYU in Wisconsin, now BYU has been I think a
storyline that's developed over the course of the year. They've
got some outstanding players, seem to be really well coached,
(11:28):
beat a very good Iowa State team twice and other
and we're really successful in the Big Twelve. So now
they match up against Wisconsin, who looks not like the
typical Wisconsin teams of old. Like you, you know, whenever
you watch Wisconsin, you always expect the score to be
fifty three to forty nine. With this is this Wisconsin
(11:50):
teams very different, but this is I think this is
a real intriguing matchup.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
No, I'm with you, Paul. You know Greg Guard, we
try to fire him every year at every already comes
back with a great team. He certainly morphed the way
that he's played because it used to the old flex
offense yep, you know, down in the shot clock. But
another playing past, I think they had like thirty some
trees when they beat Iowa. They set a record on
threes when they played Diawa Hawkeyes at home, and BYU
(12:18):
referenced that game against Iowa State. They had twenty plus
turnovers in that game at Hilton Coliseum against the Iowa
State Cyclones still won the game because they shot so
many threes. So again we talked about the three point
line beings a huge factor. Both these teams are going
to want to shoot threes, So this will be not
your typical Wisconsin game. As you said. They'll be high
(12:39):
scoring and they'll be riding trees wherever they're playing this game,
and they'll be very interesting.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Another matchup I really am intrigued by is Houston and Gonzaga.
Gonzaga had a real nice game against Georgia the other night,
and I think it surprised people because I think a
lot of people picked Georgia quite frankly, because you know,
they're very athletic, very talented. But you talk you mentioned
often Kevin about the experience of the coaching and the
(13:07):
experience of the program and how that plays into March
madness in this one and done environment. I mean, Mark,
what Mark Few has done at Gonzaga is nothing short
of remarkable. To have that program mentioned in the same
blue Blood conversation as Kentucky and North Carolina and Duke,
(13:28):
it's just remarkable. But boy boy, this Houston team is tough.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah it is, you know, and you always wonder if
Tommy Lloyd going Arizona and a pipeline that Gonzaga had
from foreign players may have dried up a little bit.
They don't quite seem to have the same talent pool
they had in the past.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
But look what Calvin Sampson as Houston has done the
Big Twelve. You know, he he's replaced Kansas as the
team to beat in the Big Twelve. You look what
he's done the last two years. He's won the league
both years they've only been in two years. And he's
also taken an Oklahom team years ago the final four.
So Kevin Sampson has an experienced and when you talk
to him, he spent those years in the NBA and
(14:07):
he said that really helped him become a better college coach.
And I think he's learned to designate better. I think
his Houston team because not only to defend probably as
well as anybody, if not the best defensive team in
the country, they also make threes. They're making threes at
forty percent. So I think when you go deep in
(14:30):
the tournaments about guard play, LJ. Cryer as one, how
about this one. Four Big Twelve championships, two at Baylor
and two at Houston. Not many guys can put that
on their resume. I think this is a really, really
solid Houston team.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It really is. Every time I've watched them, I've been impressed.
Certain teams stand out, Houston being one, Drake another on
how they play defense. And it's something I wanted to
mention to you, Kevin, that I also love about the
NCAA is the emphasis on defense compared say to the NBA,
(15:05):
where they have all those silly rules and restrictions and
how you can defend, which to me is an elementary
They've taken the best athletes in the world and given
them elementary school rules and how they have to play defense.
I mean, there's no dumber rule in basketball than defense
of three seconds in my opinion. But the way Houston
(15:27):
helps on screens, the way they recover, the effort and
intelligence that they play with, and toughness, my goodness, is
that that is something I would encourage anybody who watches
this game between Gonzaga and Houston to watch. To watch
in particular, it's not the pretty part of the game,
it's the gritty part of the game. But man, that
(15:48):
team is gritty.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Well. They do things that they fled to the ball,
so everyone's all eyes are on the basketball, and I
think it comes down to your ability to own your
own and her recoveries when you come out of those
double teams, because as you mentioned before, everyone's doing a
high ball screen so and that's the struture defense. So
if you've got two players on the ball, you're playing
(16:12):
obviously four on three behind it, So how well can
you cover up and rotating? Houston does that as well
as anybody. I was able to call some Houston games
When Kelvin Sampson first went in there, he quite didn't
quite have the talent left yet that he has now,
but certainly to watch one of his practices and understand
how he evolved as a coach and what the philosophies
(16:33):
are is really really was a great eye open experience
for me. And Kelvin's done this too. He's made this
a family fair. He's got his son on his assistant
coach and evidently they have the film sessions at his
house so he can go home and play with his grandkids.
So the players come to his house. It's allow them
(16:54):
more family time. I think it's a really unique situation
and he's really adjusted his coaching style in today's college
basketball world.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
You know what, I don't know this for a fact, Kevin,
and I'm talking to Kevin Lehman, longtime NC double A
play by play television coverages by Kevin through many many
decades here on the Basketball Show on Sports fourteen forty.
But in the old days, and by that I mean
as recent as five years ago with the NC doublea's
(17:25):
draconian way of regulating college basketball, Calvin having teammates teams
over and feeding them doing film may have even been
an NC double A violation, Like the way when you
look at the NC double A today compared to ten
years ago, it's an unrecognizable organization.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, wasn't there a time within the last decade that
you couldn't give them? You get like jelly for their bagels,
but you couldn't give him cream cheese. That's how I
got it. It's exactly right the hensday was. But certainly
now at the age of nil opening them up and
this house set that's coming here in April, it is
(18:09):
going to change the landscape of basketball even more of
college that flas even where we've seen it change. I
got a great Calvin Sampson store for you that I
saw one time on the athletic because when he took
the job at Houston, he went to talk to his AD.
He said, my ad, you had like four folds of
this side of three laptops and I was talking to
him about what I needed to be successful. He never
(18:30):
looked up, and I finally said to him, if you
want to win national championships, And that's when the AD
finally looked up from his phone and started listing because
if we don't make these changes, you're going to fire
me in five years, like you fired the last three
coaches in five years. So you know, he understood what
it took to be successful. And I think you're going
to see now with this new age of nil transfer portal,
(18:54):
there's going to be some haves and some have nots
in college and basketball. I think the upsets of Drake
are to become fewer and fewer as we go through
this NCAA tournament.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I think you're right, and this is a topic for
another time, and I'd love to do a deep dive
into the future because adding in and I'm going to
link it into another set of question, another question for you.
Adding in the fact that you can now go out
of high school and play junior college basketball and not
(19:24):
lose any eligibility. To me, that's a game changer. But
I'm glad it's happening, because it's going it's now going
to be harder and harder for high school players to
get recruited unless you're a McDonald's All American caliber player
because and this is the line of questioning today, we
have a great matchup between two storied, controversial coaches in
(19:49):
John Calipari at Arkansas against Rick Patino at Saint John's,
and Patino has been very vocal about I'm not recruiting
high school kids. I'm going after twenty two to twenty
four old men. That change is really is very real now.
It used to be the one and done. You know,
we saw a lot of eighteen and nineteen year olds
out there playing. Not so much anymore.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Well I've seen this, Tupaul, because what you're talking about
the Northern Iowas of the world, in the Missouri Valley Conference,
the Drakes of the world. Missouri Northern i always had
their best recruiting class as far as rankings in their history.
Because now there's a group of players in that's say
ranked one hundred and fiftieth to two point fifty that
they couldn't touch before because the power leagues that you're
(20:35):
talking about, are you going to take a one and
done or they're going to go to transfer Portland, take
a mid major another player that's improven. So what you're
seeing to make majors now become the junior colleges or
the feeder system for these Power five programs that would
be the the Power four plus the Big East, the
major conferences. So it's interesting to see how this is
(20:59):
going to belt because the mid majors now can maybe
recruit a better class of player out of high school
and developed them, But how long can they keep them?
Because I think Nold and I was thinking, is we're
going to keep these guys for two years and then
you're going to make some real money in NIL as
you go into maybe a big ten SEC school, big
EA school, big twelve school.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Isn't that a crazy what you just described. It just
struck me that was how you used to perceive junior college.
Now you're looking at mid majors becoming farm teams for
the blue bloods, and it's very, very real in the
way that you described it. It's just fundamentally changing everything
about the game of basketball in the NCAA. But we
(21:43):
just had Chris what's Chris his last name from. He's
the play by play radio voice of the Oregon Ducks
women's program, and you know, he was just talking about
embracing embracing nil because you have to Now you have
to see where you fit in the food chain now
in NCAA basketball, don't you.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
You certainly doing even if you're a mid major, you
have to say to your players, Okay, what's your best
interest to go on somewhere else and make more money.
So you have to have that open door policity because
if you connect coach that close, the door gets upset.
When your players leave, you're gonna have that reputation and
you won't be able to recruit it anymore. So it's
become an open door both ways. It's really interesting to
(22:27):
see the players, you know, and I've been around Northern
Iowa a lot. You know that program. It was a
developmental program. I had the Brandley n Game Wednesday where
they beat North Alabama. Another team that would get players,
keep them for five years. Rinch in the year put
more weight on them. Hopefully kids that might grow an
answer to those players. Now they can't keep in their program,
(22:50):
and so I'm wondering how those coaches that were developmental coaches,
that were really solid and mid majors that were always
at the top of the league, how they can continue
to thrive and with this new landscape for seeing in
college basketball. And I had this interesting conversation with ESPN
with my producers that assign games about what we talked about,
(23:13):
there's a better class of players that the mid majors
can recruit. And his comeback was, yeah, but look how
much better we are at the top now with the
Auburns of the world. Houston's because now if they need
a certain type of player, they can go back and
tick them off a mid major team and plug it in.
So the teams at the top are going to be
(23:35):
evenm beedded now. Of course, he's looking at it as
a viewership because they're always giving us numbers, how many teams,
how many eyeballs viewed these games they played, So they're
looking at a different angle than purist like you and
I ares looking at.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
It purests like you and I. That makes us sound
really smart, Kevin, I like that, I really do and
I'm talking to Kevin Aman that are very old. Definitely
right on the last one. Kevin Lehman's joining us here
on the Basketball Show. Unfortunately, we'll have to wrap things up.
I have a couple of final questions for you. If
(24:10):
you had to pick one team right now that you
think is going to pull an upset off over this weekend,
who would you pick?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I think I got to stick with the Drake team
because I've seen him so much and their ability to
control tempo, put pressure on a team and have them
so you know they're they're get tight around there, just
get like we saw the Missouri team, they just got
ties that game went on because they could get that
team team into the flows they want to and Drake
and control Temple. So that would be my team, Drake Bulldogs.
(24:41):
Can they beat Tech in advanced to the sweet sixteen?
We certainly hope.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So that would be great for the not just for
the Drake culture and the Drake experience, but also Missouri
Valley and mid majors in general. Because to your point,
and I did have one final point to make as well.
The rumor has it and I don't know the young
young man's name off the top of my head. But
the number one recruit out of high school next year
(25:07):
is going to be going apparently to Brigham Young University
because one of the billionaire supporters of BYU is forking out.
I think it's eight million dollars to get him to
show up. That's another X factor in all of this,
isn't it. It's going to be not just tradition. It's
going to be the deep pockets that an individual school
(25:28):
that may not be on the blue blood radar right
now but could get awfully competitive quickly because they have
the financial backing in order to get top players to
come there.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, and Paul, we're seeing it with coaches because Darren Debreese,
who I coached at Nolan, Iowa, took Drake the tournament
three times, went to West Virginia, just took the Indiana job.
He was offered the Iowa job where his brother was
a football American. He's got Iowa ties. Their INIL money
was nowhere near Indiana's turn that job down to take
(26:01):
the Indiana job. So you're seeing coaches now their first
question is how much do I have in INIL money? Basically,
what is my payroll for acquiring players? So watching coaches
move is also going to be a huge factor who
takes which jobs.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Wow, never thought of that, but that makes perfect sense
from a business planning standpoint. Are you what's your budget comparatively?
That's that definitely is I was lost in Indiana's game
because Debrees can really coach.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Well, you're an Iowa guy, Paul, So I was at
a crossolds right now. Because they have to decide whether
they're going to be a player, yes, or they're going
to be a bottom feeder in the Big ten. This
is a huge, huge year because they have to get
their NIL package, which is around one point two million.
Toward the bottom of the Big ten, it's got to
be around six million for inil money to acquire to
(26:54):
put your roster together, and they're nowhere near that. So
they have to make some huge decisions plus payoff Ram
Jaffrey four point two million. Plus they're trying to do
a sixty million dollar renovation of Carver Hawk guy.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Wow, that's a lot of zeros that they're going to
have to come up with in a state that's not
used to that kind of that kind of cash. Being
having to having to acquire that kind of cash Kevin,
thanks so much for joining us today. Absolute pleasure as always,
and I look forward to doing this again real soon.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Okay, Paul, enjoy the weekend. This is the greatest weekend
of college basketball, of sports in the entire year.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Totally agree with you. Kevin Lehman, longtime NC double A
college basketball voice. You can check Kevin out in the
nit right now, great great broadcaster, joining us here on
the Basketball Show on Sports fourteen forty. Going to take
a break right now, we'll come back talk more madness,
more NC double A. We're going to talk more about
(27:54):
the Women's March madness as well here on Your Sports Leader,
Sports fourteen forty
Welcome back to the Basketball Show, Paul, Sir Ryan Reed,
joining you this morning on Sports fourteen forty. Happy to
be joined once again by our good friend Kevin Lehman,
longtime voice of men's college basketball, joining us today on
the Basketball Show. Kevin, Welcome to the program. It's great
to have you back, Thanks, Paul.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Glad to be back. How's your bracket doing, because I
got a little red ink on mine.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Mine's you know what, Honestly, mine's not as ugly as
it normally is, Kevin, But it's still ugly, like it
ain't pretty, but usually mine are are train wrecks. Grand
Canyon was not a good choice in the men's bracket, Kevin.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, your history tells you that a good one to
go with.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah, yeah, And I thought they were better than they were,
and certainly then they better were better than they were
last night, and they probably are. But as you know
as well as anybody, the one shining moment can go.
It can be a bright, bright spotlight or it can
be a very dull, disappointing quick exit. And so just
(01:09):
ask Clemson, huh.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, that's what I got wrong with that Clemson team.
But you know, and I saw I had that team
a hold on sec. I gotta knock my window, you
know that. Okay, Okay, I'm back with you.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay that when I heard you need to leave, sir,
I'm thinking, where's Kevin hanging out now?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
But why had that Macnee State team in the Paradise jam? So?
I do as a pretty good team, but there, I
guess I have little trouble today with Purdue.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, they're getting worked right now, but they have their
one shining moment and Clemson woke up far too late,
made a game of it. It was certainly a boy
talk about a tale of two halves.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Huh yeah, no question. Uh. I thought they were gonna
make a cup. I'm back on him, but we've got
you know, they're having a little trouble they with Purdue.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yes, Purdue's the Big Ten defense I think is just
really getting to them, you know, Kevin, I want to
run through some of the matchups today. We're going to
start with our Iowa roots and let's let's talk about
the Drake. The Drake game the other night and they're
victory over Missouri. That really was a special moment for
(02:25):
a whole lot of reasons, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, I had Drake a number of times. I probably
had him twelve times this year, so I kind of
that was not an upset in my mind. I knew
Drake was going to be able to control the tempo
in that game, which they did, and the teams that
try to run with Drake you can't do it. So
if you're going to be Drake, you have to kind
of what I call get down and ugly and play
a game, a dirty game like they are. You got
(02:49):
to beat them at their own style, and that's hard
to do because they control possessions so well well.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
The fact that they have the they are last in
the nc DOUBLEA in terms of time of taking their
shots on average. It's just it's an incredible style of play.
And to me, we were talking about this when we
open the show, it's part of the absolute beauty of
NCUBA basketball. In my opinion, Kevin, is that this is
(03:17):
so unique now globally, certainly compared to the NBA, but
the fact that the international style of play is pretty
much across the board, very very similar. It's people executing
out of the screen and roll with a twenty four
second clock. Coaches are taken out of the flow of
the game because you can't call a timeouts when the ball,
(03:39):
when play is going on the wider key. All of
those factors add up and it's wonderful to watch NCUBA basketball.
So a team like Drake with lesser physical ability can
go against a much more talented team physically and be
able to control the game the way Drake does and
end up being Victoria.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yes, that what's amazing about that, Paul. If you look
at this Drake team, what they do defensively, and I've
been they have an interesting concept in their game preparation.
They don't use scout teams. They just defend what they
call concepts. And they had thirteen steals against that Missouri team.
They averaged nine steals plus per game in valley play.
(04:21):
They led the valley. And this is a team that
doesn't press. They play a half court defense that's really smothering,
and they're really active with their hands. Really well coached team,
and they're going to have they're going to give who
they got to coming up here today? Texas Tech. Yeah,
which you know Grant McCaslin and Ben McCollum are best
of friends. Those teams actually scrimmage and one of those
(04:44):
secret scrimmages back in November, so they know each other
pretty well. I don't know if they'll be able to
sneak up on this Tech team.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Tech team's awfully good. This would be a major upset.
I totally agree with you. I think Tech they're They're
very physical and it's going to be really tough for
Drake to match up with them. And I'm curious to
see how they hand about how the guards handle the
Tech pressure as well.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Well. I tell you what, their spacing is so good
with Drake that pressure hasn't bothered it much. And what
they do is, you know they're going to go through
that pressure and they're gonna pull back out and milk
that shot clock. And that's I think it kind of
mentally wears out on the team trying to press against him.
And if Tech tries to shoot a bunch of threes
like they did the other night, that works against you
(05:31):
because you're gonna go and play defense at the other end.
I had a Bradley game where they're on they were
on defense for a minute twenty against the Drake team.
They never left the half court because they give up
two offensive rebounds.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
That is that That's again the magic of March Madness
is that you get to showcase a team like Drake
that most people A haven't heard of and B haven't
have never had the opportunity to watch up in Canada.
Certainly they're down in the States, you always have access
to it. I'm going to go a little bit down
memory lane right now, just because a lot of people
(06:07):
aren't aware of Drake basketball history. But Drake actually made
it to the Final four, and I want to say
that was nineteen sixty nine with the great Willie Wise,
Dlph Pollium, was it Jeff Halliburton as well, and went
up against and lost to in a very close game
against Louel Cinder Kareem abdul Jabbar's UCLA team.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Correct correct, nineteen sixty nine. And Rick Watamaker, who was
a very successful real estate agent in Des Moines, actually
blocked Leuel Sinder's skyhook. I ever do it? Yeah? Rick
Wantamaker also was a decathlete in the Drake relay. So
you and I got you those names too, you know,
(06:48):
Dulph Pollium, Willie Wise, Willia McCarter, and the fifth starter.
That note, the great trivia question for that team is
the fifth starter was a guy named Don Draper, not
that Don Draper from mad Men, the same name of Don.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
That's tremendous. That's tremendous. Let's jump back to the bracket.
Auburn number one seed overall, number one seed. What do
you think Auburn clearly a favorite to get to the
finals in your opinion?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, I think so. But today hear you got Cockbrenner,
who's the four time Biggies Defensive Player of the Year,
going against you, Denia Broom. So if anybody can halim
one to one, this is a guy that can do it.
Can Creighton shut down that three point shooting and the
other perimeter guys and they don't have to double inside
because of Cockbrinner's size and presence of rounding room. That's
(07:39):
gonna be a great one to one battle in side
between Creyton and Auburn. But I think Auburn, even though
they've lost a couple here of late, that's still my
pick to get to the final four.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
I've got them as well going to the Final four.
But another one of their sec counterparts in Florida. They're
awfully tough as well, and they're going to be squaring
off against Yukon I picked Florida in that one Yukon
this year. I mean, they had a nice win last
night over Oklahoma, but they're not the Yukon that won
(08:09):
two national championships in a row, are they.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
They are not. But I will say this about this
game coming up Florida and Yukon. Florida's never been in
this type of pressure exacuation before. They're their coach is
not coast in this situation, and Bobby Heurley has, so
you got to give a little edge to Yukon. And
I don't know if they have enough talent to overcome
this Gater team that is really, really good, and I've
got them winning the whole thing. I'll let that out
(08:34):
of the bag right now. But again, as I think
about Teze, they're not experienced in that area. And you know, Paul,
in this situation, coaching is so important. The coach that
have been there face this type of pressure know how
to get their teams ready because there's so much media,
so much things going on outside the lines that you
have to deal with with your team and prepare them
(08:55):
for that.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
You know, Kevin, one of the differences, and we've touched
on it quite a bit on our program today. Is
the beauty of NCAA basketball is that it really is
the most unique brand of basketball left in the world.
I mean, the NBA is well documented now as a
three point analytics chuckfest, but when you watch international basketball globally,
(09:20):
really the similarities between how teams play with their drag
and screen and roll and spacing, it's so similar. Whereas
when you get to the NC DOUBLEA you really have
not just a variety of styles of play and the
way offenses and defenses are run. But you cannot overstate
(09:40):
what you just pointed out. The impact of coaching is
much greater in the NC DOUBLEA than any other style
of basketball globally, because the coaches can still call timeouts
during the play. You can in the NBA as well,
but that's so different that the narrow key, traditional back
to the basket post players. But the coaching and the
(10:02):
adjustments and the ability to change momentum I think is
accentuated in the NCAA more than anywhere else.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
That's a great point because have a number of those
timeouts here, those floating timeouts, you can extend the game
at the end by fouling and sitting to a team
to the free to line and in essence trying to
trade threes for twos or threes for ones and extend
games that way. You know, someone's get frustrated because the
end of a college game sometimes take ten minutes to
play the last minute of the game. But also that's
(10:31):
what makes it exciting. I still would love to see
the college game advance the ball after a made basket
on a time out to the half court. I think
that would even add more excitement to that college game.
But I'm right with you, I think the coach is
much more ext inuitd in the in this type of tournament,
and it's a one and done. It's not like in
the NBA where you've got a seven game series. This
(10:52):
is a you know, it's do or diary time you
go out there, if you're going to be If you lose,
you're going to hang up your shoes and the next
team gets to advance. So there's so much pressure on
these types of situations.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I'm talking with Kevin Lehman here on the basketball show
on your sports Leader Sports fourteen forty. Kevin, a couple
of other matchups that I'm really curious about. One is
BYU in Wisconsin, now BYU has been I think a
storyline that's developed over the course of the year. They've
got some outstanding players, seem to be really well coached,
(11:28):
beat a very good Iowa State team twice and other
and we're really successful in the Big Twelve. So now
they match up against Wisconsin, who looks not like the
typical Wisconsin teams of old. Like you, you know, whenever
you watch Wisconsin, you always expect the score to be
fifty three to forty nine. With this is this Wisconsin
(11:50):
teams very different, but this is I think this is
a real intriguing matchup.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
No, I'm with you, Paul. You know Greg Guard, we
try to fire him every year at every already comes
back with a great team. He certainly morphed the way
that he's played because it used to the old flex
offense yep, you know, down in the shot clock. But
another playing past, I think they had like thirty some
trees when they beat Iowa. They set a record on
threes when they played Diawa Hawkeyes at home, and BYU
(12:18):
referenced that game against Iowa State. They had twenty plus
turnovers in that game at Hilton Coliseum against the Iowa
State Cyclones still won the game because they shot so
many threes. So again we talked about the three point
line beings a huge factor. Both these teams are going
to want to shoot threes, So this will be not
your typical Wisconsin game. As you said. They'll be high
(12:39):
scoring and they'll be riding trees wherever they're playing this game,
and they'll be very interesting.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Another matchup I really am intrigued by is Houston and Gonzaga.
Gonzaga had a real nice game against Georgia the other night,
and I think it surprised people because I think a
lot of people picked Georgia quite frankly, because you know,
they're very athletic, very talented. But you talk you mentioned
often Kevin about the experience of the coaching and the
(13:07):
experience of the program and how that plays into March
madness in this one and done environment. I mean, Mark,
what Mark Few has done at Gonzaga is nothing short
of remarkable. To have that program mentioned in the same
blue Blood conversation as Kentucky and North Carolina and Duke,
(13:28):
it's just remarkable. But boy boy, this Houston team is tough.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah it is, you know, and you always wonder if
Tommy Lloyd going Arizona and a pipeline that Gonzaga had
from foreign players may have dried up a little bit.
They don't quite seem to have the same talent pool
they had in the past.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
But look what Calvin Sampson as Houston has done the
Big Twelve. You know, he he's replaced Kansas as the
team to beat in the Big Twelve. You look what
he's done the last two years. He's won the league
both years they've only been in two years. And he's
also taken an Oklahom team years ago the final four.
So Kevin Sampson has an experienced and when you talk
to him, he spent those years in the NBA and
(14:07):
he said that really helped him become a better college coach.
And I think he's learned to designate better. I think
his Houston team because not only to defend probably as
well as anybody, if not the best defensive team in
the country, they also make threes. They're making threes at
forty percent. So I think when you go deep in
(14:30):
the tournaments about guard play, LJ. Cryer as one, how
about this one. Four Big Twelve championships, two at Baylor
and two at Houston. Not many guys can put that
on their resume. I think this is a really, really
solid Houston team.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It really is. Every time I've watched them, I've been impressed.
Certain teams stand out, Houston being one, Drake another on
how they play defense. And it's something I wanted to
mention to you, Kevin, that I also love about the
NCAA is the emphasis on defense compared say to the NBA,
(15:05):
where they have all those silly rules and restrictions and
how you can defend, which to me is an elementary
They've taken the best athletes in the world and given
them elementary school rules and how they have to play defense.
I mean, there's no dumber rule in basketball than defense
of three seconds in my opinion. But the way Houston
(15:27):
helps on screens, the way they recover, the effort and
intelligence that they play with, and toughness, my goodness, is
that that is something I would encourage anybody who watches
this game between Gonzaga and Houston to watch. To watch
in particular, it's not the pretty part of the game,
it's the gritty part of the game. But man, that
(15:48):
team is gritty.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Well. They do things that they fled to the ball,
so everyone's all eyes are on the basketball, and I
think it comes down to your ability to own your
own and her recoveries when you come out of those
double teams, because as you mentioned before, everyone's doing a
high ball screen so and that's the struture defense. So
if you've got two players on the ball, you're playing
(16:12):
obviously four on three behind it, So how well can
you cover up and rotating? Houston does that as well
as anybody. I was able to call some Houston games
When Kelvin Sampson first went in there, he quite didn't
quite have the talent left yet that he has now,
but certainly to watch one of his practices and understand
how he evolved as a coach and what the philosophies
(16:33):
are is really really was a great eye open experience
for me. And Kelvin's done this too. He's made this
a family fair. He's got his son on his assistant
coach and evidently they have the film sessions at his
house so he can go home and play with his grandkids.
So the players come to his house. It's allow them
(16:54):
more family time. I think it's a really unique situation
and he's really adjusted his coaching style in today's college
basketball world.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
You know what, I don't know this for a fact, Kevin,
and I'm talking to Kevin Lehman, longtime NC double A
play by play television coverages by Kevin through many many
decades here on the Basketball Show on Sports fourteen forty.
But in the old days, and by that I mean
as recent as five years ago with the NC doublea's
(17:25):
draconian way of regulating college basketball, Calvin having teammates teams
over and feeding them doing film may have even been
an NC double A violation, Like the way when you
look at the NC double A today compared to ten
years ago, it's an unrecognizable organization.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, wasn't there a time within the last decade that
you couldn't give them? You get like jelly for their bagels,
but you couldn't give him cream cheese. That's how I
got it. It's exactly right the hensday was. But certainly
now at the age of nil opening them up and
this house set that's coming here in April, it is
(18:09):
going to change the landscape of basketball even more of
college that flas even where we've seen it change. I
got a great Calvin Sampson store for you that I
saw one time on the athletic because when he took
the job at Houston, he went to talk to his AD.
He said, my ad, you had like four folds of
this side of three laptops and I was talking to
him about what I needed to be successful. He never
(18:30):
looked up, and I finally said to him, if you
want to win national championships, And that's when the AD
finally looked up from his phone and started listing because
if we don't make these changes, you're going to fire
me in five years, like you fired the last three
coaches in five years. So you know, he understood what
it took to be successful. And I think you're going
to see now with this new age of nil transfer portal,
(18:54):
there's going to be some haves and some have nots
in college and basketball. I think the upsets of Drake
are to become fewer and fewer as we go through
this NCAA tournament.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I think you're right, and this is a topic for
another time, and I'd love to do a deep dive
into the future because adding in and I'm going to
link it into another set of question, another question for you.
Adding in the fact that you can now go out
of high school and play junior college basketball and not
(19:24):
lose any eligibility. To me, that's a game changer. But
I'm glad it's happening, because it's going it's now going
to be harder and harder for high school players to
get recruited unless you're a McDonald's All American caliber player
because and this is the line of questioning today, we
have a great matchup between two storied, controversial coaches in
(19:49):
John Calipari at Arkansas against Rick Patino at Saint John's,
and Patino has been very vocal about I'm not recruiting
high school kids. I'm going after twenty two to twenty
four old men. That change is really is very real now.
It used to be the one and done. You know,
we saw a lot of eighteen and nineteen year olds
out there playing. Not so much anymore.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Well I've seen this, Tupaul, because what you're talking about
the Northern Iowas of the world, in the Missouri Valley Conference,
the Drakes of the world. Missouri Northern i always had
their best recruiting class as far as rankings in their history.
Because now there's a group of players in that's say
ranked one hundred and fiftieth to two point fifty that
they couldn't touch before because the power leagues that you're
(20:35):
talking about, are you going to take a one and
done or they're going to go to transfer Portland, take
a mid major another player that's improven. So what you're
seeing to make majors now become the junior colleges or
the feeder system for these Power five programs that would
be the the Power four plus the Big East, the
major conferences. So it's interesting to see how this is
(20:59):
going to belt because the mid majors now can maybe
recruit a better class of player out of high school
and developed them, But how long can they keep them?
Because I think Nold and I was thinking, is we're
going to keep these guys for two years and then
you're going to make some real money in NIL as
you go into maybe a big ten SEC school, big
EA school, big twelve school.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Isn't that a crazy what you just described. It just
struck me that was how you used to perceive junior college.
Now you're looking at mid majors becoming farm teams for
the blue bloods, and it's very, very real in the
way that you described it. It's just fundamentally changing everything
about the game of basketball in the NCAA. But we
(21:43):
just had Chris what's Chris his last name from. He's
the play by play radio voice of the Oregon Ducks
women's program, and you know, he was just talking about
embracing embracing nil because you have to Now you have
to see where you fit in the food chain now
in NCAA basketball, don't you.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
You certainly doing even if you're a mid major, you
have to say to your players, Okay, what's your best
interest to go on somewhere else and make more money.
So you have to have that open door policity because
if you connect coach that close, the door gets upset.
When your players leave, you're gonna have that reputation and
you won't be able to recruit it anymore. So it's
become an open door both ways. It's really interesting to
(22:27):
see the players, you know, and I've been around Northern
Iowa a lot. You know that program. It was a
developmental program. I had the Brandley n Game Wednesday where
they beat North Alabama. Another team that would get players,
keep them for five years. Rinch in the year put
more weight on them. Hopefully kids that might grow an
answer to those players. Now they can't keep in their program,
(22:50):
and so I'm wondering how those coaches that were developmental coaches,
that were really solid and mid majors that were always
at the top of the league, how they can continue
to thrive and with this new landscape for seeing in
college basketball. And I had this interesting conversation with ESPN
with my producers that assign games about what we talked about,
(23:13):
there's a better class of players that the mid majors
can recruit. And his comeback was, yeah, but look how
much better we are at the top now with the
Auburns of the world. Houston's because now if they need
a certain type of player, they can go back and
tick them off a mid major team and plug it in.
So the teams at the top are going to be
(23:35):
evenm beedded now. Of course, he's looking at it as
a viewership because they're always giving us numbers, how many teams,
how many eyeballs viewed these games they played, So they're
looking at a different angle than purist like you and
I ares looking at.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
It purests like you and I. That makes us sound
really smart, Kevin, I like that, I really do and
I'm talking to Kevin Aman that are very old. Definitely
right on the last one. Kevin Lehman's joining us here
on the Basketball Show. Unfortunately, we'll have to wrap things up.
I have a couple of final questions for you. If
(24:10):
you had to pick one team right now that you
think is going to pull an upset off over this weekend,
who would you pick?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I think I got to stick with the Drake team
because I've seen him so much and their ability to
control tempo, put pressure on a team and have them
so you know they're they're get tight around there, just
get like we saw the Missouri team, they just got
ties that game went on because they could get that
team team into the flows they want to and Drake
and control Temple. So that would be my team, Drake Bulldogs.
(24:41):
Can they beat Tech in advanced to the sweet sixteen?
We certainly hope.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
So that would be great for the not just for
the Drake culture and the Drake experience, but also Missouri
Valley and mid majors in general. Because to your point,
and I did have one final point to make as well.
The rumor has it and I don't know the young
young man's name off the top of my head. But
the number one recruit out of high school next year
(25:07):
is going to be going apparently to Brigham Young University
because one of the billionaire supporters of BYU is forking out.
I think it's eight million dollars to get him to
show up. That's another X factor in all of this,
isn't it. It's going to be not just tradition. It's
going to be the deep pockets that an individual school
(25:28):
that may not be on the blue blood radar right
now but could get awfully competitive quickly because they have
the financial backing in order to get top players to
come there.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, and Paul, we're seeing it with coaches because Darren Debreese,
who I coached at Nolan, Iowa, took Drake the tournament
three times, went to West Virginia, just took the Indiana job.
He was offered the Iowa job where his brother was
a football American. He's got Iowa ties. Their INIL money
was nowhere near Indiana's turn that job down to take
(26:01):
the Indiana job. So you're seeing coaches now their first
question is how much do I have in INIL money? Basically,
what is my payroll for acquiring players? So watching coaches
move is also going to be a huge factor who
takes which jobs.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Wow, never thought of that, but that makes perfect sense
from a business planning standpoint. Are you what's your budget comparatively?
That's that definitely is I was lost in Indiana's game
because Debrees can really coach.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Well, you're an Iowa guy, Paul, So I was at
a crossolds right now. Because they have to decide whether
they're going to be a player, yes, or they're going
to be a bottom feeder in the Big ten. This
is a huge, huge year because they have to get
their NIL package, which is around one point two million.
Toward the bottom of the Big ten, it's got to
be around six million for inil money to acquire to
(26:54):
put your roster together, and they're nowhere near that. So
they have to make some huge decisions plus payoff Ram
Jaffrey four point two million. Plus they're trying to do
a sixty million dollar renovation of Carver Hawk guy.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Wow, that's a lot of zeros that they're going to
have to come up with in a state that's not
used to that kind of that kind of cash. Being
having to having to acquire that kind of cash Kevin,
thanks so much for joining us today. Absolute pleasure as always,
and I look forward to doing this again real soon.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Okay, Paul, enjoy the weekend. This is the greatest weekend
of college basketball, of sports in the entire year.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Totally agree with you. Kevin Lehman, longtime NC double A
college basketball voice. You can check Kevin out in the
nit right now, great great broadcaster, joining us here on
the Basketball Show on Sports fourteen forty. Going to take
a break right now, we'll come back talk more madness,
more NC double A. We're going to talk more about
(27:54):
the Women's March madness as well here on Your Sports Leader,
Sports fourteen forty
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!