September 17, 2025 • 18 mins
Victoria wants to make working from home a legal right for two days a week – a move that could reshape how many Australians work. But is Jacinta Allan’s policy about protecting flexibility, or is it more about politics with an election looming? And can it even be done?
Chris Bourke speaks with Trent Wiltshire from the Grattan Institute about whether legislating hybrid work makes sense, what it would mean for businesses and workers, and why the work-from-home debate reveals a growing divide in Australia’s workforce.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Victorian government is pushing for new work from home laws,
which could see people allowed to use the home office
at least twice a week.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We know not everyone can work from home, but we
are moving to protect it for those who can.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
There's a clear schism about what the Governor's trying to do.
That's why they're gas lighting so many workers in the process,
and I think we need to.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Call it out.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Should working from home be a legal right in Australia
or is it just a COVID hangover that's past its
use by date? The arguments for both sides are heating up. Hello,
I'm Chris Burke and this is the Bloomberg Australia Podcast.
Since the pandemic, working from home has gone from occasional
perk to pretty much a weekly routine for many Australians.
(00:49):
Down here in Victoria. It's become so entrenched that the
state government is considering making it a legal right to
work from home for at least two days a week.
To discuss the implications of all this and whether it
can even be done, is Trent Wheelchair. He's the Deputy
program Director for Economic Prosperity and Democracy at the Gratton
(01:10):
Institute Here in Melbourne, Trent. Welcome to the podcast. Hi Chris,
thanks having me on Trent. I'm going to start with
a bit of a personal question. Do you like to
work from home?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I do, yes.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Typically I'm in the office about two to three days
a week and at.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Home the rest of the time.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, so that's it.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I'm definitely in the hybrid work camp.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
It's a fairly generous to work from home policy.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
It is.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah, we sort of have two anchor days in the
office and then you know, probably every second week in
another day or so, and.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So your office is in Melbourne, not too far from mine.
From next year, those two days could potentially well, you
could potentially have the legal right to work from home
for two days a week. What is the state government's
thinking behind this? Is it a pure coincidence that Victoria
is to the polls next year?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I think a big part of the proposed policy is politics.
So we saw during the federal election campaign when Peter
Dudden proposed to wind back work from home rights to
public servants that that was not done well, it didn't
go to emperor at all. So even though that was
only for public servants, people were worried that what meant
(02:23):
more broadly, they.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Wouldn't be able to work from home.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So I think the Victorian Labour parties take advantage of
that and trying to wedge the Coalition into opposing their
idea to sort of get a similar result as what
happened federally. So that's the kind of cynical political take
on it. But the other side is that you know,
working from is very popular, so their idea, the polling
shows that their idea is popular, and for the Labor
(02:50):
Party it's a reasonable position, I guess, to want to
strengthen workers' rights, so that's in line with what they're
thinking would be to boost or increase rights to be
able to work from home. So that's somewhat reasonable they are.
I just don't think it's the right way to do it,
and we can get into that. But is it necessary.
Do you need to mandate two days a week for
people that can reasonably perform their job at home?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Look, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I think we're kind of close to the equilibrium of
what most firms and most workers are happy with, and
that is if they can work from home, you know,
roughly two to three days a week and the rest
in the office.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, but you know, I guess the big question is
can they even do this? I mean, how will they
legislate it?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I'm not not a legal expert, but from what I've seen,
it's unclear that they can do it. So the Victoria
handed over their powers around industry relations to the Commonwealth
back in their nineties, so that'd have to do it
sort of through different ways. I think maybe through antidiscrimination
laws or something like that. So whether they can do
it legally, that's I think they're going to investigate that
this year. So you know, it was sort of a
(03:53):
policy idea that was floated, not that was clearly defined.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, so it is a bit unclear.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, so this looks up there's some way to go
there before we can start celebrating though that legal right.
But look, you know, Melbourne was one of the world's
most lockdown cities as we know, and those dark days
of the pandemic. Do you think that's why Victoria is
(04:21):
the state that's taking the lead on this.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I think it's a big factor. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So looking at the data, we can see that Melbourne
has the highest rates of work from home behind Canbra.
So Canbra is the leader that's really because of the
public service. There have really very entrenched work from home patterns.
Se In Melbourne about forty percent of workers do more
than five hours of work from home a week, and
(04:46):
about twenty percent work from home more than half the time.
But actually Melbourne's numbers are very similar to Sydney, so
it's not actually a Melbourne standing out story. It's Melbourne
and Sydney sort of the standouts, right, and then it's
Briusband Adam and in Pertha sort of the lowest amount
of work from home of all the major capitals. So
I think because it's become entrenches, it's part of Melbourne culture,
(05:09):
somewhat due to COVID. I think that is a factor
why Labor proposed this idea.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, you could certainly see it's pretty noticeable. I think
I come into the city most days and Mondays and
Fridays are pretty quiet on Colin Street up there. Look,
do you see this move? You know, I mean were
yet to see if this is actually going to happen,
But do you see this move as a potential model
(05:36):
for the rest of Australia or even internationally.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
It doesn't look like it, so there hasn't really been
a strong follow on from other state governments supporting this idea.
People haven't pushed back too hard, but there's no strong
support that this is a great idea around the world.
It seems like it's one of the only method or
ideas in terms of mandating and min a number of
days working from home. So it is unique. So I
(06:03):
don't think it's going to happen more broadly, but I
do think there is If the government wanted to give
workers more rights to be able to work from home,
I think it's probably the wrong way to do.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
It's too blunt.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
The two day rule, I think a better idea first,
because if this is going to happen, it really should
happen at the federal level. So we want consistent laws
across the country. Given that lots of firms have offices
in different states, so it makes sense to have the
same laws in all the states. So I think it
should have happened federally, and it probably should happen via
(06:41):
the Fair Work Act. So one way we've thought you
could be a way that governments can think about it
is to strengthen workers' rights to request flexible work under
the National Employment Standards in the Fair Work Act. So
currently some workers can request flexible working range, and that
includes being able to work for home, but only some people,
(07:01):
So only people that have worked for a business for
more than twelve months, if they're a parent, or a
care if they've got if they're a person with the disability,
or fifty five or older, or pregnant or experiencing family
or domestic avants. So there's a certain group of people
that can request flexible work, but a business can knock
that back if they have reasonable business grounds for doing so.
(07:23):
One way is to maybe expand the categories of people
that could work from home. So maybe you know, the
biggest one is to let everyone be able to apply
for flexible work and to raise the bar perhaps for
businesses to be able to reject those requests, so make
it a bit harder for business. So if you want
to do I think that's a better way of going
about it.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It could be a vote one of those, right.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
I think that potentially, and I think from what the
Federal Labor Party have said, I think they would be
thinking something along those lines potentially.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
So as we were talking before about Melbourne embracing kind
of work from home, it has been slower than the
rest of the country to return to the office vacancy.
Office vacancy rates have been stuck at the highest in
the nation for some time, but look last month the
Property Council of Australia said something quite surprising. For the
(08:12):
first time since COVID, office vacancies in Melbourne actually fell,
not by that much, but they did fall. So for
that reason, the Council warned against trying to legislate working
from home just as the office market is finally showing
signs of stability. What do you think do they have
a point?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Well, they have a point in terms of they're trying
to reflect their members' interests. So I guess a lot
of clearly commercial office space in the city was one.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Of the hardest hits, hardest hit sectors to.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Do the work from home revolutions. But I don't think
we should be setting our work from home policy just
thinking about CBD officers and CBD cafes and restaurants. Yes,
these were the hard hit by the changes to our
working patterns, but I think we need to think that
set the policy thinking more broadly about what's good for
(09:07):
society and what's good for economy. Its clearly that people
have embraced hybrid work. Workers like it, many firms like
it as well, So yes, that sector was hard hit,
but that's spending that happened perhaps at CBD cafes has
actually gone elsewhere, so it hasn't just disappeared. So some
data came out last week from payment terminal provider Square
(09:28):
showing that some suburban areas are really booming in terms
of consumer spending because of work from home. So yes,
there's been some adjustment, and you know, the commercial office
space has been the hardest hit, but look at the
city more broadly, So Melbourne and Sydney aren't just office
buildings that exist from nine eight till five nine till
five on weekdays, foot traffic data shows that cbdas have
(09:53):
evolved into more entertainment precincts, so cities are much busier
on Saturdays and Sundays. Now Thursday night drinks are popular
rather fried than that drink. So cities have adapted to
be I guess serve as a broader range of people
at different times and what they did pre COVID.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Not everyone likes that there right there has been pushed
back from businesses are what have they been most concerned about.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Certainly, some businesses are worried about or not king hybrid work,
and when a firm announces a return to office mandate,
it gets a lot of media coverage. So some big
ones come off bank and A and Z sort of
required start to return to their officers. But often what's
loss in the details there is that it's not a
(10:43):
full time to return to office. It's just requiring attendance
three days a week. So I think there is often
a media beat up about these return to office may days.
Certainly some companies have demanded five days back and you know,
I think if that works so then that's maybe okay,
but perhaps they might see some staff leave that that
really want to be able to work from home some
(11:05):
of the time. So I mentioned before, I think we're
close to that equilibrium about where we will land with
hybrid work. That's what the data shows. Things have stabilized.
Firms are pretty happy, workers are pretty happy. Although I
would say that there's some evidence from the US, where
there's the sort of the best data is available and
similar patterns to Australia that firms typically want their workers
(11:29):
back in the office a little bit more than what
they are currently and workers actually want to be at
home a little bit more than they are, so there's
a little bit of tension, but it's not massive. And
then looking forward, firms in the US actually think work
from home is going to be roughly where it is
today in one year's time, so I think that's sort
of where the level's at.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Okay, when we come back, how is working from home
changing the lives of Australians and is it just too
late to turn the clock back? Welcome back to the
Bloomberg Australia Podcast. I'm Chris Burke, and today I'm talking
to Trent Wheelchair from the Graddmen Institute, which informs governments
(12:15):
on public policy. Look, today we are talking about the
future of working from home in the wake of the
Victoria government's plans to legislate the right to work from
home for two days a week. Trent, you and I
both work in an office. It's pretty easy for us
to work from home, as you said earlier, but if
(12:37):
I'm in hospitality or construction, it's going to be much
harder to pull that one off. So, whether this legislation
goes through or not, is work from home is it
kind of creating this two tier workspace where it's mainly
helping out white collar workers and leaving others behind.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, it's a great I think it's a great discussion point.
And I think that's true that some professions have much
higher rates of work from home because it can be done,
and there is a bit of a divide between those
that can do it and those that can't. So you
think some of the most important jobs in our society
can't be done at home, thinking police, nurses, doctors, teachers, trades.
(13:21):
So they potentially some of that work we've done at home,
but only a very small share, if at all. So
these people miss out on the benefits and the work
life balance benefits you get from.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Work from home, and that is unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
How will that play out well, I think potentially might
see pay actually start to equalize a little bit, so
that the market might adjusted somewhat. So research shows that
people that work from home valued at about five to
ten percent of their paycheck. So potentially wages could grow
a little bit more slowly in jobs that can be
done from home, and might rise a little bit in
(13:57):
some of those jobs that need full in person attendance.
And we've seen shortage of teachers. That's because teachers are
professionals and they could do other jobs as well, and
vice versa. So people that want to work from home
might move away from teaching, but pay might adjust.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
A little bit there.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
So that's I think you're certainly right in that inequality
between different occupations. But a really important point is that
for those within the sort of white collar workforce, hybrid
work has actually really helped those people that are actually
the most disadvantage a most marginalized. So previously, people with children,
(14:34):
people with disability cares might have struggled to actually get
a job or work full time because it hapened to
commute so much. And we've seen there's quite a few
studies have shown that the big beneficiaries of hybrid work
people with disability, people with young parents with young children,
people their health condition. So there's some good Australian evidence
(14:56):
that Seeda looked at Nicholas Bloom, he's sort of work
from home guru. He did some research and found that
the driver of high anticipation of workers with the disability
was being able to work from home. So that sort
of the good side of the or the better side
of the inequality debate, I.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Think yeah, which again speaks to why politicians would see
this as a as a great vote winner.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, and you know, I think a good social outcome
for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah yeah, I mean as for many people, like especially
both with children, they just can't imagine a life a
life without flexible working models.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Now. Yeah, so hybrid work has really changed my life.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
So my son was born in October twenty nineteen, so
Iron actually was only actually in the office full time
for a few months before COVID hit, and I was
working proponing quite frequently. So I can't imagine going back
to a world where I'm in the office five days
a week would really make it difficult for my family.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
And so that's been a god sound for you, has it?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Absolutely, Yeah, I mean that's a great example. I guess
working from home has really changed how Australians think about
about work life balance and career progression.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Even certainly has so I think the biggest benefit for
many people from hybrid work is that work life balance.
The research shows that people devite the time they saved
from commuting. They put it towards hobbies, they put it
towards caring for kids and others. They put it towards
(16:25):
side hustles as well, but I also put it towards
working more hours, which is really interesting. So the benefits
actually from time safe commuting spread broadly just to the
individual and to the firm as well, but also more
broadly now that helps with congestion our roads on public transport.
So you know, these broad benefits from this hybrid working model.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, I can tell you from experience it is much
easier to continue continue working when you're on your laptop
at five o'clock in the evening.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, And another another you want to or not. Another
factor I think that shows that the harbrid workers help
with work life balance or lifestyle is that we've seen
regional populations and regional house prices boom because people have
moved taken the advantage of being able to move further
(17:18):
away from the city only have to commute back to
the office one, two, three times a week. So you know,
I've had three friends move down the surf coast here
in Victoria to take advantage of hybrid work. So that's
a real, like clear example that haybridwork benefits you know,
work life balance.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
And as you said earlier, you made that big call
that you think in a year's time will be pretty
much where we are in terms of Australia work from
home rates.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I will go back to the US evidence again, that's
what that's what firms are predicting, and they're the ones
that if anyone is sort of pushing more towards having
people backing up as they think hybrid work is going
to be pretty much the same as where it is now.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Okay, so we may not even need this legislation or
whether or not it actually gets to go through.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, I think that's probably right, and that's why I
think it was kind of a political call to announce that,
because it's probably not needed, particularly in Victoria, and you know,
it's better to be done nationally anyway rather than just
in Victoria.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
But one thing is for sure, it will still be
creating many discussions going forward. Trent Wheelchair, thank you for
joining us today on the Bloomberg Australia Podcast.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Thank you, Chris.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
If you found today's conversation and site, will be sure
to follow the Bloomberg Australia Podcast wherever you listen. This
episode was recorded on the traditional lands of the Wurunduri people.
It was produced by Paul Allen and edited by Hainsley Chandler.
I'm Chris Burke and I'll see you next week.
Victorian government is pushing for new work from home laws,
which could see people allowed to use the home office
at least twice a week.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
We know not everyone can work from home, but we
are moving to protect it for those who can.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
There's a clear schism about what the Governor's trying to do.
That's why they're gas lighting so many workers in the process,
and I think we need to.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Call it out.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Should working from home be a legal right in Australia
or is it just a COVID hangover that's past its
use by date? The arguments for both sides are heating up. Hello,
I'm Chris Burke and this is the Bloomberg Australia Podcast.
Since the pandemic, working from home has gone from occasional
perk to pretty much a weekly routine for many Australians.
(00:49):
Down here in Victoria. It's become so entrenched that the
state government is considering making it a legal right to
work from home for at least two days a week.
To discuss the implications of all this and whether it
can even be done, is Trent Wheelchair. He's the Deputy
program Director for Economic Prosperity and Democracy at the Gratton
(01:10):
Institute Here in Melbourne, Trent. Welcome to the podcast. Hi Chris,
thanks having me on Trent. I'm going to start with
a bit of a personal question. Do you like to
work from home?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I do, yes.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Typically I'm in the office about two to three days
a week and at.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Home the rest of the time.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, so that's it.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I'm definitely in the hybrid work camp.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
It's a fairly generous to work from home policy.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
It is.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah, we sort of have two anchor days in the
office and then you know, probably every second week in
another day or so, and.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So your office is in Melbourne, not too far from mine.
From next year, those two days could potentially well, you
could potentially have the legal right to work from home
for two days a week. What is the state government's
thinking behind this? Is it a pure coincidence that Victoria
is to the polls next year?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I think a big part of the proposed policy is politics.
So we saw during the federal election campaign when Peter
Dudden proposed to wind back work from home rights to
public servants that that was not done well, it didn't
go to emperor at all. So even though that was
only for public servants, people were worried that what meant
(02:23):
more broadly, they.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Wouldn't be able to work from home.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So I think the Victorian Labour parties take advantage of
that and trying to wedge the Coalition into opposing their
idea to sort of get a similar result as what
happened federally. So that's the kind of cynical political take
on it. But the other side is that you know,
working from is very popular, so their idea, the polling
shows that their idea is popular, and for the Labor
(02:50):
Party it's a reasonable position, I guess, to want to
strengthen workers' rights, so that's in line with what they're
thinking would be to boost or increase rights to be
able to work from home. So that's somewhat reasonable they are.
I just don't think it's the right way to do it,
and we can get into that. But is it necessary.
Do you need to mandate two days a week for
people that can reasonably perform their job at home?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Look, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I think we're kind of close to the equilibrium of
what most firms and most workers are happy with, and
that is if they can work from home, you know,
roughly two to three days a week and the rest
in the office.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, but you know, I guess the big question is
can they even do this? I mean, how will they
legislate it?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I'm not not a legal expert, but from what I've seen,
it's unclear that they can do it. So the Victoria
handed over their powers around industry relations to the Commonwealth
back in their nineties, so that'd have to do it
sort of through different ways. I think maybe through antidiscrimination
laws or something like that. So whether they can do
it legally, that's I think they're going to investigate that
this year. So you know, it was sort of a
(03:53):
policy idea that was floated, not that was clearly defined.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, so it is a bit unclear.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, so this looks up there's some way to go
there before we can start celebrating though that legal right.
But look, you know, Melbourne was one of the world's
most lockdown cities as we know, and those dark days
of the pandemic. Do you think that's why Victoria is
(04:21):
the state that's taking the lead on this.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I think it's a big factor. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So looking at the data, we can see that Melbourne
has the highest rates of work from home behind Canbra.
So Canbra is the leader that's really because of the
public service. There have really very entrenched work from home patterns.
Se In Melbourne about forty percent of workers do more
than five hours of work from home a week, and
(04:46):
about twenty percent work from home more than half the time.
But actually Melbourne's numbers are very similar to Sydney, so
it's not actually a Melbourne standing out story. It's Melbourne
and Sydney sort of the standouts, right, and then it's
Briusband Adam and in Pertha sort of the lowest amount
of work from home of all the major capitals. So
I think because it's become entrenches, it's part of Melbourne culture,
(05:09):
somewhat due to COVID. I think that is a factor
why Labor proposed this idea.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, you could certainly see it's pretty noticeable. I think
I come into the city most days and Mondays and
Fridays are pretty quiet on Colin Street up there. Look,
do you see this move? You know, I mean were
yet to see if this is actually going to happen,
But do you see this move as a potential model
(05:36):
for the rest of Australia or even internationally.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
It doesn't look like it, so there hasn't really been
a strong follow on from other state governments supporting this idea.
People haven't pushed back too hard, but there's no strong
support that this is a great idea around the world.
It seems like it's one of the only method or
ideas in terms of mandating and min a number of
days working from home. So it is unique. So I
(06:03):
don't think it's going to happen more broadly, but I
do think there is If the government wanted to give
workers more rights to be able to work from home,
I think it's probably the wrong way to do.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
It's too blunt.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
The two day rule, I think a better idea first,
because if this is going to happen, it really should
happen at the federal level. So we want consistent laws
across the country. Given that lots of firms have offices
in different states, so it makes sense to have the
same laws in all the states. So I think it
should have happened federally, and it probably should happen via
(06:41):
the Fair Work Act. So one way we've thought you
could be a way that governments can think about it
is to strengthen workers' rights to request flexible work under
the National Employment Standards in the Fair Work Act. So
currently some workers can request flexible working range, and that
includes being able to work for home, but only some people,
(07:01):
So only people that have worked for a business for
more than twelve months, if they're a parent, or a
care if they've got if they're a person with the disability,
or fifty five or older, or pregnant or experiencing family
or domestic avants. So there's a certain group of people
that can request flexible work, but a business can knock
that back if they have reasonable business grounds for doing so.
(07:23):
One way is to maybe expand the categories of people
that could work from home. So maybe you know, the
biggest one is to let everyone be able to apply
for flexible work and to raise the bar perhaps for
businesses to be able to reject those requests, so make
it a bit harder for business. So if you want
to do I think that's a better way of going
about it.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
It could be a vote one of those, right.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
I think that potentially, and I think from what the
Federal Labor Party have said, I think they would be
thinking something along those lines potentially.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
So as we were talking before about Melbourne embracing kind
of work from home, it has been slower than the
rest of the country to return to the office vacancy.
Office vacancy rates have been stuck at the highest in
the nation for some time, but look last month the
Property Council of Australia said something quite surprising. For the
(08:12):
first time since COVID, office vacancies in Melbourne actually fell,
not by that much, but they did fall. So for
that reason, the Council warned against trying to legislate working
from home just as the office market is finally showing
signs of stability. What do you think do they have
a point?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Well, they have a point in terms of they're trying
to reflect their members' interests. So I guess a lot
of clearly commercial office space in the city was one.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Of the hardest hits, hardest hit sectors to.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Do the work from home revolutions. But I don't think
we should be setting our work from home policy just
thinking about CBD officers and CBD cafes and restaurants. Yes,
these were the hard hit by the changes to our
working patterns, but I think we need to think that
set the policy thinking more broadly about what's good for
(09:07):
society and what's good for economy. Its clearly that people
have embraced hybrid work. Workers like it, many firms like
it as well, So yes, that sector was hard hit,
but that's spending that happened perhaps at CBD cafes has
actually gone elsewhere, so it hasn't just disappeared. So some
data came out last week from payment terminal provider Square
(09:28):
showing that some suburban areas are really booming in terms
of consumer spending because of work from home. So yes,
there's been some adjustment, and you know, the commercial office
space has been the hardest hit, but look at the
city more broadly, So Melbourne and Sydney aren't just office
buildings that exist from nine eight till five nine till
five on weekdays, foot traffic data shows that cbdas have
(09:53):
evolved into more entertainment precincts, so cities are much busier
on Saturdays and Sundays. Now Thursday night drinks are popular
rather fried than that drink. So cities have adapted to
be I guess serve as a broader range of people
at different times and what they did pre COVID.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Not everyone likes that there right there has been pushed
back from businesses are what have they been most concerned about.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Certainly, some businesses are worried about or not king hybrid work,
and when a firm announces a return to office mandate,
it gets a lot of media coverage. So some big
ones come off bank and A and Z sort of
required start to return to their officers. But often what's
loss in the details there is that it's not a
(10:43):
full time to return to office. It's just requiring attendance
three days a week. So I think there is often
a media beat up about these return to office may days.
Certainly some companies have demanded five days back and you know,
I think if that works so then that's maybe okay,
but perhaps they might see some staff leave that that
really want to be able to work from home some
(11:05):
of the time. So I mentioned before, I think we're
close to that equilibrium about where we will land with
hybrid work. That's what the data shows. Things have stabilized.
Firms are pretty happy, workers are pretty happy. Although I
would say that there's some evidence from the US, where
there's the sort of the best data is available and
similar patterns to Australia that firms typically want their workers
(11:29):
back in the office a little bit more than what
they are currently and workers actually want to be at
home a little bit more than they are, so there's
a little bit of tension, but it's not massive. And
then looking forward, firms in the US actually think work
from home is going to be roughly where it is
today in one year's time, so I think that's sort
of where the level's at.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Okay, when we come back, how is working from home
changing the lives of Australians and is it just too
late to turn the clock back? Welcome back to the
Bloomberg Australia Podcast. I'm Chris Burke, and today I'm talking
to Trent Wheelchair from the Graddmen Institute, which informs governments
(12:15):
on public policy. Look, today we are talking about the
future of working from home in the wake of the
Victoria government's plans to legislate the right to work from
home for two days a week. Trent, you and I
both work in an office. It's pretty easy for us
to work from home, as you said earlier, but if
(12:37):
I'm in hospitality or construction, it's going to be much
harder to pull that one off. So, whether this legislation
goes through or not, is work from home is it
kind of creating this two tier workspace where it's mainly
helping out white collar workers and leaving others behind.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, it's a great I think it's a great discussion point.
And I think that's true that some professions have much
higher rates of work from home because it can be done,
and there is a bit of a divide between those
that can do it and those that can't. So you
think some of the most important jobs in our society
can't be done at home, thinking police, nurses, doctors, teachers, trades.
(13:21):
So they potentially some of that work we've done at home,
but only a very small share, if at all. So
these people miss out on the benefits and the work
life balance benefits you get from.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Work from home, and that is unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
How will that play out well, I think potentially might
see pay actually start to equalize a little bit, so
that the market might adjusted somewhat. So research shows that
people that work from home valued at about five to
ten percent of their paycheck. So potentially wages could grow
a little bit more slowly in jobs that can be
done from home, and might rise a little bit in
(13:57):
some of those jobs that need full in person attendance.
And we've seen shortage of teachers. That's because teachers are
professionals and they could do other jobs as well, and
vice versa. So people that want to work from home
might move away from teaching, but pay might adjust.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
A little bit there.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
So that's I think you're certainly right in that inequality
between different occupations. But a really important point is that
for those within the sort of white collar workforce, hybrid
work has actually really helped those people that are actually
the most disadvantage a most marginalized. So previously, people with children,
(14:34):
people with disability cares might have struggled to actually get
a job or work full time because it hapened to
commute so much. And we've seen there's quite a few
studies have shown that the big beneficiaries of hybrid work
people with disability, people with young parents with young children,
people their health condition. So there's some good Australian evidence
(14:56):
that Seeda looked at Nicholas Bloom, he's sort of work
from home guru. He did some research and found that
the driver of high anticipation of workers with the disability
was being able to work from home. So that sort
of the good side of the or the better side
of the inequality debate, I.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Think yeah, which again speaks to why politicians would see
this as a as a great vote winner.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, and you know, I think a good social outcome
for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah yeah, I mean as for many people, like especially
both with children, they just can't imagine a life a
life without flexible working models.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Now. Yeah, so hybrid work has really changed my life.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
So my son was born in October twenty nineteen, so
Iron actually was only actually in the office full time
for a few months before COVID hit, and I was
working proponing quite frequently. So I can't imagine going back
to a world where I'm in the office five days
a week would really make it difficult for my family.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
And so that's been a god sound for you, has it?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Absolutely, Yeah, I mean that's a great example. I guess
working from home has really changed how Australians think about
about work life balance and career progression.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Even certainly has so I think the biggest benefit for
many people from hybrid work is that work life balance.
The research shows that people devite the time they saved
from commuting. They put it towards hobbies, they put it
towards caring for kids and others. They put it towards
(16:25):
side hustles as well, but I also put it towards
working more hours, which is really interesting. So the benefits
actually from time safe commuting spread broadly just to the
individual and to the firm as well, but also more
broadly now that helps with congestion our roads on public transport.
So you know, these broad benefits from this hybrid working model.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, I can tell you from experience it is much
easier to continue continue working when you're on your laptop
at five o'clock in the evening.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, And another another you want to or not. Another
factor I think that shows that the harbrid workers help
with work life balance or lifestyle is that we've seen
regional populations and regional house prices boom because people have
moved taken the advantage of being able to move further
(17:18):
away from the city only have to commute back to
the office one, two, three times a week. So you know,
I've had three friends move down the surf coast here
in Victoria to take advantage of hybrid work. So that's
a real, like clear example that haybridwork benefits you know,
work life balance.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
And as you said earlier, you made that big call
that you think in a year's time will be pretty
much where we are in terms of Australia work from
home rates.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I will go back to the US evidence again, that's
what that's what firms are predicting, and they're the ones
that if anyone is sort of pushing more towards having
people backing up as they think hybrid work is going
to be pretty much the same as where it is now.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Okay, so we may not even need this legislation or
whether or not it actually gets to go through.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, I think that's probably right, and that's why I
think it was kind of a political call to announce that,
because it's probably not needed, particularly in Victoria, and you know,
it's better to be done nationally anyway rather than just
in Victoria.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
But one thing is for sure, it will still be
creating many discussions going forward. Trent Wheelchair, thank you for
joining us today on the Bloomberg Australia Podcast.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Thank you, Chris.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
If you found today's conversation and site, will be sure
to follow the Bloomberg Australia Podcast wherever you listen. This
episode was recorded on the traditional lands of the Wurunduri people.
It was produced by Paul Allen and edited by Hainsley Chandler.
I'm Chris Burke and I'll see you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.