The Journey from hanging out a window to climbing up the ranks.
Author Ken Brandt regales us with his tales of his early work days in New York City, to a career in cybersecurity, before writing a book about living with low vision.
Learn more about our Career Path podcast and access a range of employment resources by selecting this link or visit www.visionaustralia.org and search for 'The Career Path' podcast.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:16):
Hello and welcome to the Career Path. A recent report
from Sweeney and Vision Australia revealed that 83% of employers
surveyed lacked confidence in hiring someone with a vision impairment.
With this podcast, we hope to delve further into this
issue by speaking to job seekers, employers and employees to
hear their perspectives. Each episode will be available to download
(00:39):
as a podcast. Just go to Vision Australia org and
type the career path into the search engine to find
our webpage where you can listen to other episodes and
subscribe to make sure that you don't miss any. I'm
your host, Belinda Wilson. In this episode, we're speaking with
Ken Brandt, speaker and author of Positive Vision Enjoying the
(00:59):
Adventures and Advantages of Poor Eyesight. Thank you for joining
us today.
S2 (01:03):
I'm excited to be here.
S1 (01:05):
We are very excited to have you here. So can
you have an extremely impressive work history? Having worked in
a variety of fields across multiple areas and countries, could
you just give us an overview of your career? Sure.
S3 (01:19):
I graduated from when as an undergraduate, I majored in
economics and political science. Then I did a whole wide
variety of miscellaneous jobs and then I decided, All right,
I better get serious. And I thought, I'll go for
an MBA and Master of Business Administration degree. And I
started taking those courses. I was working 2 or 3
(01:42):
days a week and going to school the other 2
or 3 days. And I thought, All right, there's a
whole lot of interesting subjects. Don't want to know which
one I'm going to focus on. They all sounded really
interesting to me. Finance, accounting, sales, marketing, operations. They all
sounded good. You had to also take a computer course
as a requirement, and that was the only one I
(02:03):
thought would be like horrendous and boring and the only
one I really took because I had to take it. Well,
it turns out I was completely wrong. I really, really
liked the computer course. It surprised me a lot. I
ended up switching that my focus to that ended up
getting my first job after that as a programmer at
the Federal Reserve Bank in New York and worked on
(02:25):
Wall Street and a lot of other consulting jobs doing
programming programmer analysis, worked my way up to project manager
and doing it information technology, security plans and all kinds
of stuff like that, and had a really interesting sets
of clients who were mostly Wall Street firms, but some
(02:46):
government agencies and utilities. And that was all really nice.
And they were in Japan and in the US all
over the place and in Europe. And then after a
while I thought, well, I want to focus a little
more and switch. And I wanted to go into cybersecurity.
So I studied that area, got some certifications and with
(03:06):
a friend we founded and started a cybersecurity firm and
it went went on for several years, did the same
thing with another cybersecurity consulting firm and that all worked
out really well. So I ended up with actually, before
moving to Australia, clients in Australia, the US, Europe, Africa
(03:26):
and Asia. And then I moved to Australia. My wife
and I moved to Australia in 2006. I worked for
Ernst and Young here doing similar stuff, consulting for a
bunch of different firms, mostly financial and utilities, some government work.
And then I ended up as the division information security
(03:47):
officer in ANZ. So I was responsible for the security
of the Australia division and that was a great position,
very interesting. Then I left there and did some board
of directors positions and then I stopped doing that. And
lately I've just been goofing off. I wrote a book,
I've been publicising it. Thanks very much for having me
on here and working out, being a jazz trumpeter, amateur
(04:10):
jazz trumpeter, I stress amateur and goofing off with friends
and family, so I'm excited about the lockdown ending. Get
to spend more time goofing off.
S1 (04:18):
I'd love the fact that you said I goofed off
and I wrote a book. I don't think that quite
counts as goofing off.
S4 (04:23):
Well.
S3 (04:24):
I was a pretty casual writer. I'd write for a
couple of weeks and then would take off for a
week or a couple of weeks, and then I'd go
back to it. So it took me two years, so
I really took my time and that helped the gaps.
Help because you think of new ideas, better ways to
say things, all of that. So for me, it worked.
S1 (04:41):
Well Throughout your career. You made the choice not to
disclose your low vision to employers. Why did you make
that choice?
S3 (04:49):
Several reasons. One, my entire life, until I wrote my book,
I had avoided discussing my vision with anybody. I didn't
want anybody trying to help me with stuff that I
didn't need help with. I thought it would prevent me
from getting certain jobs if I brought it up during
a job interview because I thought it would limit my opportunities. Plus,
(05:11):
one time I actually lost a job because of my
poor vision. This was a long time ago. Before I
went for my MBA, I applied for and was admitted
as an apprentice in the Sheet metal Workers union. One
time I was working in the World Trade Center, not
building the World Trade Center. I was not that old,
(05:31):
but it was doing work at the top of the
World Trade Center at the very top. There was something
that needed to be fixed outside, and it was my
job to go into that duct, have one guy hold
me by the ankles so I wouldn't fall out and
go out as far as my waist. So from the
waist up, I was outside 110 storeys up and it
was winter, it was freezing and the wind is blowing.
(05:54):
You know, when you're 110 storeys up, it doesn't take
a lot of wind to, you know, it's blowing through
it and all the other trades that were working at
the same time as we were, they started like really
complaining because all of a sudden it's freezing until the
lead sheet metal worker said, Hey guys, we'll be done shortly.
But one of our guys is actually outside. That's where
the wind is coming from. He's in that vortex. So
(06:15):
I took my time a little bit because it was
a really good view. You get to look down 110
stories from a vantage point you never get. So I
enjoyed that. That was really good. But what happened was
as part of the training, you'd go to school for
sheet metal people, and one of the instructors said to me,
You know, I don't know whether you see well enough.
You might be a danger to yourself and some of
(06:36):
the other workers. And I disagreed with him. But he said,
all right, like you get me a letter from your
doctor saying it's okay for you to do this and
then no problem. So I thought, okay, that's good. Then
I go to my eye doctor, an ophthalmologist, and he says,
Now you shouldn't be doing this. This doesn't make any sense.
I'm not going to give you that letter. So I
ended up having to drop out of being a sheet
(06:56):
metal worker. I think that it was a really good experience.
I liked it, but there is the possibility I lived
a little bit longer not doing some of that stuff.
S1 (07:05):
So once you retired, you wrote a book which you
have called Positive Vision, enjoying the adventures and Advantages of
poor eyesight. Can you share with us an example of
some of the adventures and advantages you experienced? Sure.
S3 (07:19):
Thanks for asking. I'll give you a short adventure and
then I'll give you an advantage that I think is
especially applicable to careers.
S4 (07:29):
Excellent.
S3 (07:30):
The adventure is this. As I mentioned, I used to
live in New York City, and for a while I
lived for a long while I lived on the fifth
floor of a walkup building. It was a little walk up,
walk up, meaning there's no elevator. You have to go
up the stairs to the fifth floor. You get in
pretty good shape doing that. But anyway, one day I
wake up and it's a little apartment. It's a studio apartment.
(07:51):
You open the door and aside from the little area
that was the bathroom behind another door, you could see
every single thing. It's a little tiny place. But I
wake up in the morning and I look over the wall,
which is very close. And for the first time I
cannot see the wall. I think to myself, it sure
is smoggy in here. And I roll over and go
back to sleep. My nose, my sense of smell. I
(08:13):
was just not paying any attention. Of course, there was
no smog in there. Seconds or minutes later. I don't
know how long my neighbor was doing the good deed
that I should have been doing, which was banging on
everybody's door. And I hear him banging and yelling, Fire, fire,
Get up, get dressed faster than I probably ever have
before since. And I'm thinking to myself that whole brief time,
(08:35):
you know what an idiot. There's never smog inside. My
apartment was completely filled with dark, black, thick smoke. You
couldn't see the wall. And so go down the hallway
and up the stairs is running a firefighter. Everybody else
is leaving the building. So my neighbor and I are
standing there. And one of the things that when you
live in a fifth floor of a building is you
(08:56):
you get in pretty good shape and you also find
out what kind of shape all your friends are in
because some sort of jog up slowly and they they
pant and they get there and they're sort of proud
of themselves because they made it. Others you could go
watch a movie before they got from the ground floor
up to your apartment and then you've got to give
them a water or beer or something. This firefighter was
the opposite. This guy is literally running up the stairs.
(09:19):
He's carrying his axe. He's got a helmet. He's got
his heavy firefighter gear on. He's wearing boots. He's carrying
an oxygen tank on his back. And he says, and
I'm not exaggerating, he says, just like this, as he's
running up the stairs, could you two guys give me
a boost over the wall? I need to get to
the other building. So of course we say yes and
(09:39):
we go up one more flight to the roof of
our building and we give them a boost over the wall.
That's between our building and the building right next door.
And he was heavy. I was glad there were two
of us giving him a boost. So his job was
to smash a hole in the roof of the building
so that it would let some of the heat and
fire and smoke and everything escape. While his buddies were
(10:01):
fighting the fire with hoses and stuff from the side
and below. So then we're on our roof and we're
there already. So we said, Oh, let's look at the back.
So we go to the back of the building, we
see what's going on, the building next door to us,
which was an abandoned building. Had been torched. It was
arson and massive, massive amounts of thick black smoke of
(10:22):
pouring out, doing a U-turn and coming through our building.
So we go, All right, that's not good, but that's
a relief because that means like it's just that building.
We don't have to worry about our building. The firefighter
would have said something because it said, Oh, let's go
look at the front, which is the street side. So
we we we walked to the front of the building.
We're looking down and it's all very exciting stuff. There
(10:42):
were all these fire trucks, lots of firefighters. They were hoses,
they were ladders. They were doing all kinds of stuff.
One guy who was in charge is wearing like a
white hat instead of the standard firefighter hats. He has
a bullhorn and he yells up to us, he goes, you.
S5 (10:56):
Idiots, get off the roof and out of the building. Oh.
S3 (11:01):
No, he had a point there. So we did. We
get we get off the roof, we go down. My
neighbor went out. I stopped in my apartment and took
a shower and changed because I figured everything was okay.
I did it quickly, but. And then I went to work.
But it's just an example of a little adventure and
also of it's really good to pay attention to your
other senses. You know, don't ignore whatever your nose is
(11:24):
trying to tell you. You know, that sense of smell.
It could have saved my life if I should have
been the one like my neighbor helping to wake other
people up. But I just rolled over and went to
sleep and was thinking smog instead of smoke. And I
live and learn in terms of advantages. I think one
of the really good advantages that is very applicable to
(11:46):
business of having poor vision is people with poor vision
have an edge in public speaking. Many people in the
world are scared to death of public speaking. There have
been polls where a lot of people would choose death
over public speaking. They just rather die than have to
give a speech. Well, public speaking is less scary for
(12:06):
people with poor vision such as myself. First, you can't
really tell how big the audience is. You know, is
it a medium size or a large size? Is it
small or medium? Well, you can only see so many people.
I can only see so many people. So you're just
not intimidated by a larger audience? You can't recognize? I
can't recognize, you know, whether my friends are really in
(12:28):
the audience or not. So I'm not intimidated by, oh, well, wait,
I need to impress this person or my boss or whatever,
you know, that's beyond my vision. I can't tell any
of that stuff. So I'm more relaxed than people who
can see the audience. And then another thing is, often
when you're given a speech, there are lights on you
on the stage and you can't literally can't see the
(12:51):
audience at all because the lights are in your eyes. Well,
people who have good vision, that really bothers them because
they count on seeing facial expressions to judge the reaction
of the audience. Well, don't have that issue. I can't
see well enough to judge the facial expressions I'm used
to judging. And other people with poor vision are used
to judging the audience reaction by are they quiet and
(13:13):
hopefully listening at the right points? Are they laughing at
the right points or are they talking when they're clearly
indicates that they're not paying any attention? So you're used
to judging by the audio, not by the visual. So
we have an edge there. And then because I can't
read my notes easily and I can't because of seeing
(13:34):
them and I can't read my PowerPoint slides easily, even
though they're gigantic and probably right next to me, I
need to in advance.
S5 (13:42):
Practice.
S3 (13:43):
My speech, practice the outline, practice, whatever I'm going to say,
and be ready and relaxed with it. Well, just doing
that makes your speech much better. So those are the
advantages we have versus a lot of people. And often
in business or government or wherever you are, you have
to stand up and talk to a bunch of people,
whether it's small or big, and we have an edge,
(14:04):
which is pretty cool. Also, there's other things that help
a lot in this. One is I always try to
get somebody else. If there's questions and answers after the
speech to pick the people in the audience to ask
the question because I'm not necessarily going to see people
when they raise their hand or see people in the
back when they stand up and they want to ask
(14:24):
a question. So it's better to for me to get
somebody else to do that. Now, usually and it's always
easy to find somebody to volunteer, even if you don't
know anybody else in the room, you can just ask
the organizer and yes, yeah, yeah, they'd be happy to
do it. That has a couple advantages. First, you're not
going to leave somebody out who's been trying to ask
a question for half an hour. And second, you don't
(14:46):
have to pay attention to the whole thing. You don't
have to pay attention to who was the last person
to stand up, Who was the first person to stand up. Instead,
you can concentrate completely on the person who is asking
the question and answering that question, which makes your answer better.
So those are some advantages that we have. And there's
there's millions more. They all relate. They relate to balance, creativity,
(15:09):
living longer, better coordination in certain things, better use of
the senses. Like a. Like smell, but also taste, etcetera.
S5 (15:18):
So all that kind of stuff.
S1 (15:19):
So living longer, is it possible that maybe vision impaired
and blind people could become immortal.
S5 (15:27):
But don't know if that would be good or bad?
But I don't think that's really what I was thinking.
What I was really thinking is there were certain things
like sheet metal.
S3 (15:38):
Work and was.
S5 (15:39):
The captain of.
S3 (15:40):
My university parachuting team.
S5 (15:41):
Where there's certain activities which, if.
S3 (15:44):
I had not had poor vision, I would definitely have
continued doing okay.
S1 (15:48):
Well, thought it was worth a shot to try and
find out if maybe, you know, there was a path
to becoming a supervillain. But, you know, if there's not,
that's fine.
S4 (15:55):
Well, you know.
S5 (15:57):
We'll have to both.
S3 (15:58):
Think about that, because if there is, we should figure it.
S4 (16:00):
Out.
S1 (16:00):
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So you have a lot of experience
in the field of cyber security. This is a field
that is seeing such an increased demand and interest for
the lay people out here. What exactly is cyber security?
S3 (16:14):
Cyber security? First of all, it has the name has
changed over time and it's probably going to change a
bunch of times in the future, too. So cyber security
used to be called data processing security or information technology
security or information security, all of that. It's all wrapped
up in the same thing. So cyber security is how
(16:36):
do you protect information. So that includes stuff on computers,
stuff not on computers. How do you keep it safe
from hackers? How do you keep it safe from viruses?
How do you have it backed up so that if
something happens to your business or house or computer or
disk drive, that you actually can get to it again.
(16:59):
How do you prevent somebody else from purposefully or accidentally
changing any of your information? How do you teach people
how to deal with emails so that they understand which
ones they shouldn't open, which phone calls, asking them to
do certain things? They should ignore? That's people trying to
get to their information. That's all part of cyber security,
(17:21):
disaster recovery, planning, business continuity planning, all of that's part
of cyber security. It's a very broad field. Some of
it's very, very technical. Some of it's very, very non-technical.
You know, there's a huge range of things in there
you can be in in any of multiple parts. It's
an exciting field.
S1 (17:40):
What advice would you give to someone who was interested
in pursuing a career in cyber security?
S3 (17:46):
Several things. First, do all the basic stuff that you
should do when you're trying to pursue any career. So
go on LinkedIn, connect with every single person you know
that's on LinkedIn, you know, have a good CV, have
a good one minute explanation of why you'd be the
perfect person to hire. Have a good five minute explanation
of the same thing. Go do volunteer work related to
(18:10):
that area, study that area as much as possible. There's
such a massive amount of stuff on the internet about
all aspects of cybersecurity and everything else you want to know.
Become familiar with that. In terms of actual training and certifications,
there's different certifications and groups you can join. You can
start meeting people on on Meetup and over the net
(18:30):
that are completely into cybersecurity. And it's a very welcoming group.
So become involved in all of those things and then
major and take courses in cybersecurity. You know, you can
start start with information technology or with H.R. Whichever aspects
of cybersecurity you want to get into. There's a lot
of different things. You know, you could be a cybersecurity auditor,
(18:53):
you could be security assurance, you could be there's a
lot of different areas, you know, explore them, learn about them.
S5 (19:00):
All of that kind of stuff.
S1 (19:01):
So specifically for people who have low vision or are blind,
this has become a huge area of interest for people
to pursue as a career. Any advice specifically for those
people listening?
S4 (19:12):
Well.
S3 (19:13):
I can tell you a couple of things that are
going on. There's a university in Western Australia that has
a program for people who are blind to learn to
become network administrators. And some of the work that they're
doing is it's just colossal. I mean, these people are
really good at what they're doing and they have more
(19:35):
non Australians applying to be part of the program than
they do Australians. But they'd love to have a higher
number of Australians. There are some blind low vision people
who have their own information security firms and so there
are opportunities. There's also it's in the very, very, very
early stages. But Ron Hughton, the president of Vision Australia,
(19:59):
has started an initiative which is in the pre planning
stages where he wants to set up a program where
Vision Australia can coordinate with information security groups to try
to help more people go into this cybersecurity field. And
I'm working with. And Teresa is working with him on that.
I've talked to a lot of people in cybersecurity that
(20:21):
are interested in helping out, and the Australian Information Security
Association is interested in working with Vision Australia. So there'll
be a lot more opportunities in the future. But in
the meantime, do as much as you can on your own.
Get in touch with me, link with me.
S5 (20:36):
Get on the LinkedIn, connect.
S3 (20:37):
With me. I'd be happy to talk to any individual
who wants to go into cybersecurity and no matter where
you are in your level or what you're aspiring to.
S4 (20:46):
If you could.
S1 (20:47):
Speak to employers who are interviewing people who are blind
or have low vision, what would you say to them?
What could they do to make their companies more inclusive?
S3 (20:55):
I would say that probably will take longer for a
blind person to get oriented. And, you know, but it
takes everybody a while to get on it. It might
take longer, but.
S5 (21:07):
A.
S3 (21:08):
Lot of people who are blind have colossal technical skills.
They're really focused. And there's a bunch of statistics that
I've read where if a blind person gets a job,
they really, really more than most people want to keep
that job advance, get stronger, grow.
S5 (21:25):
Because there.
S3 (21:26):
Aren't as many opportunities for.
S5 (21:28):
So you might have a little bit.
S3 (21:30):
Longer startup.
S5 (21:31):
But you're going to have a tremendous.
S3 (21:33):
Payoff in the short, medium and.
S4 (21:35):
Long term. I mean, a.
S1 (21:36):
Lot of employers also just aren't aware of the adaptations
that can be made and the types of thing that
vision impaired people can do.
S3 (21:44):
Exactly. The technology that's available is colossal now. It's dramatically
better than than five, ten, 20 years ago.
S1 (21:52):
And also, you know, since vision impaired people on blind
people live forever, they can now have employees work for longer.
S4 (22:00):
Exactly.
S5 (22:02):
The other thing is, if I was having a conversation
with an employer, I would also say, you know, don't
forget the most obvious of things. A blind person is
a person. You know, they're like everybody else in 99%.
S3 (22:15):
Of their of.
S5 (22:16):
Respects, you know, in terms.
S3 (22:18):
Of capabilities, intelligence drive. You know, it's.
S5 (22:21):
You know, they've got this other hurdle, but they're.
S3 (22:23):
Used to getting over that other hurdle.
S1 (22:25):
Absolutely. That's such a great point. Is there any other
advice or pieces of wisdom that you'd like to share
with people can do everything.
S3 (22:33):
You can to help your vision.
S5 (22:34):
You know, whatever.
S3 (22:35):
General health working out, do whatever your your eye doctor.
S5 (22:40):
Says, you know.
S3 (22:41):
Wear glasses, wear protective glasses, wear contacts.
S5 (22:44):
Whatever, operate If there's anything you can.
S3 (22:46):
Do to improve your vision, do.
S5 (22:47):
That. Then, you know, just be grateful. You know, you're
going to reach some.
S3 (22:51):
Some peak point, you know, wherever you are and it's
not going to improve. And then just be grateful for
whatever vision you have.
S5 (22:58):
Then figure out what you want to do and go
for it. Just give it a red hot go and
you're going to have some stumbles, you're going have some falls.
S3 (23:09):
Some things are hard to do.
S5 (23:11):
Well, almost all.
S3 (23:12):
Good things are hard.
S5 (23:13):
To do. Well, just go for it and you'll be
amazed at how much you can get done. Other people
will be amazed.
S3 (23:19):
At how much you can get done. But you know.
S5 (23:21):
Enjoy yourself, laugh at yourself along the.
S3 (23:24):
Way. You'll have a good time.
S1 (23:26):
Thank you very much, Ken. Not all good things are
hard to do because this was an absolute pleasure. Everybody,
please go out and pick up Ken's book, Positive Vision
Enjoying the adventures and advantages of poor eyesight. The conversation
doesn't have to stop here. Share this podcast episode on
social media and start a conversation with your friends, family,
(23:50):
and followers, or tell us what's on your mind. You
can provide feedback through the email Career podcast at Vision Australia.
Org The Career Path Podcast series is available to download
via our website. Just go to Vision Australia org and
type the career path into the search field to find
our webpage where you can listen to other episodes benefit
(24:11):
from a range of resources and subscribe to ensure you
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for updates and bonus content. Facebook.com slash Radio network and
Twitter.com slash VA radio network. Thanks for traveling with us
(24:31):
along the career path.
Hello and welcome to the Career Path. A recent report
from Sweeney and Vision Australia revealed that 83% of employers
surveyed lacked confidence in hiring someone with a vision impairment.
With this podcast, we hope to delve further into this
issue by speaking to job seekers, employers and employees to
hear their perspectives. Each episode will be available to download
(00:39):
as a podcast. Just go to Vision Australia org and
type the career path into the search engine to find
our webpage where you can listen to other episodes and
subscribe to make sure that you don't miss any. I'm
your host, Belinda Wilson. In this episode, we're speaking with
Ken Brandt, speaker and author of Positive Vision Enjoying the
(00:59):
Adventures and Advantages of Poor Eyesight. Thank you for joining
us today.
S2 (01:03):
I'm excited to be here.
S1 (01:05):
We are very excited to have you here. So can
you have an extremely impressive work history? Having worked in
a variety of fields across multiple areas and countries, could
you just give us an overview of your career? Sure.
S3 (01:19):
I graduated from when as an undergraduate, I majored in
economics and political science. Then I did a whole wide
variety of miscellaneous jobs and then I decided, All right,
I better get serious. And I thought, I'll go for
an MBA and Master of Business Administration degree. And I
started taking those courses. I was working 2 or 3
(01:42):
days a week and going to school the other 2
or 3 days. And I thought, All right, there's a
whole lot of interesting subjects. Don't want to know which
one I'm going to focus on. They all sounded really
interesting to me. Finance, accounting, sales, marketing, operations. They all
sounded good. You had to also take a computer course
as a requirement, and that was the only one I
(02:03):
thought would be like horrendous and boring and the only
one I really took because I had to take it. Well,
it turns out I was completely wrong. I really, really
liked the computer course. It surprised me a lot. I
ended up switching that my focus to that ended up
getting my first job after that as a programmer at
the Federal Reserve Bank in New York and worked on
(02:25):
Wall Street and a lot of other consulting jobs doing
programming programmer analysis, worked my way up to project manager
and doing it information technology, security plans and all kinds
of stuff like that, and had a really interesting sets
of clients who were mostly Wall Street firms, but some
(02:46):
government agencies and utilities. And that was all really nice.
And they were in Japan and in the US all
over the place and in Europe. And then after a
while I thought, well, I want to focus a little
more and switch. And I wanted to go into cybersecurity.
So I studied that area, got some certifications and with
(03:06):
a friend we founded and started a cybersecurity firm and
it went went on for several years, did the same
thing with another cybersecurity consulting firm and that all worked
out really well. So I ended up with actually, before
moving to Australia, clients in Australia, the US, Europe, Africa
(03:26):
and Asia. And then I moved to Australia. My wife
and I moved to Australia in 2006. I worked for
Ernst and Young here doing similar stuff, consulting for a
bunch of different firms, mostly financial and utilities, some government work.
And then I ended up as the division information security
(03:47):
officer in ANZ. So I was responsible for the security
of the Australia division and that was a great position,
very interesting. Then I left there and did some board
of directors positions and then I stopped doing that. And
lately I've just been goofing off. I wrote a book,
I've been publicising it. Thanks very much for having me
on here and working out, being a jazz trumpeter, amateur
(04:10):
jazz trumpeter, I stress amateur and goofing off with friends
and family, so I'm excited about the lockdown ending. Get
to spend more time goofing off.
S1 (04:18):
I'd love the fact that you said I goofed off
and I wrote a book. I don't think that quite
counts as goofing off.
S4 (04:23):
Well.
S3 (04:24):
I was a pretty casual writer. I'd write for a
couple of weeks and then would take off for a
week or a couple of weeks, and then I'd go
back to it. So it took me two years, so
I really took my time and that helped the gaps.
Help because you think of new ideas, better ways to
say things, all of that. So for me, it worked.
S1 (04:41):
Well Throughout your career. You made the choice not to
disclose your low vision to employers. Why did you make
that choice?
S3 (04:49):
Several reasons. One, my entire life, until I wrote my book,
I had avoided discussing my vision with anybody. I didn't
want anybody trying to help me with stuff that I
didn't need help with. I thought it would prevent me
from getting certain jobs if I brought it up during
a job interview because I thought it would limit my opportunities. Plus,
(05:11):
one time I actually lost a job because of my
poor vision. This was a long time ago. Before I
went for my MBA, I applied for and was admitted
as an apprentice in the Sheet metal Workers union. One
time I was working in the World Trade Center, not
building the World Trade Center. I was not that old,
(05:31):
but it was doing work at the top of the
World Trade Center at the very top. There was something
that needed to be fixed outside, and it was my
job to go into that duct, have one guy hold
me by the ankles so I wouldn't fall out and
go out as far as my waist. So from the
waist up, I was outside 110 storeys up and it
was winter, it was freezing and the wind is blowing.
(05:54):
You know, when you're 110 storeys up, it doesn't take
a lot of wind to, you know, it's blowing through
it and all the other trades that were working at
the same time as we were, they started like really
complaining because all of a sudden it's freezing until the
lead sheet metal worker said, Hey guys, we'll be done shortly.
But one of our guys is actually outside. That's where
the wind is coming from. He's in that vortex. So
(06:15):
I took my time a little bit because it was
a really good view. You get to look down 110
stories from a vantage point you never get. So I
enjoyed that. That was really good. But what happened was
as part of the training, you'd go to school for
sheet metal people, and one of the instructors said to me,
You know, I don't know whether you see well enough.
You might be a danger to yourself and some of
(06:36):
the other workers. And I disagreed with him. But he said,
all right, like you get me a letter from your
doctor saying it's okay for you to do this and
then no problem. So I thought, okay, that's good. Then
I go to my eye doctor, an ophthalmologist, and he says,
Now you shouldn't be doing this. This doesn't make any sense.
I'm not going to give you that letter. So I
ended up having to drop out of being a sheet
(06:56):
metal worker. I think that it was a really good experience.
I liked it, but there is the possibility I lived
a little bit longer not doing some of that stuff.
S1 (07:05):
So once you retired, you wrote a book which you
have called Positive Vision, enjoying the adventures and Advantages of
poor eyesight. Can you share with us an example of
some of the adventures and advantages you experienced? Sure.
S3 (07:19):
Thanks for asking. I'll give you a short adventure and
then I'll give you an advantage that I think is
especially applicable to careers.
S4 (07:29):
Excellent.
S3 (07:30):
The adventure is this. As I mentioned, I used to
live in New York City, and for a while I
lived for a long while I lived on the fifth
floor of a walkup building. It was a little walk up,
walk up, meaning there's no elevator. You have to go
up the stairs to the fifth floor. You get in
pretty good shape doing that. But anyway, one day I
wake up and it's a little apartment. It's a studio apartment.
(07:51):
You open the door and aside from the little area
that was the bathroom behind another door, you could see
every single thing. It's a little tiny place. But I
wake up in the morning and I look over the wall,
which is very close. And for the first time I
cannot see the wall. I think to myself, it sure
is smoggy in here. And I roll over and go
back to sleep. My nose, my sense of smell. I
(08:13):
was just not paying any attention. Of course, there was
no smog in there. Seconds or minutes later. I don't
know how long my neighbor was doing the good deed
that I should have been doing, which was banging on
everybody's door. And I hear him banging and yelling, Fire, fire,
Get up, get dressed faster than I probably ever have
before since. And I'm thinking to myself that whole brief time,
(08:35):
you know what an idiot. There's never smog inside. My
apartment was completely filled with dark, black, thick smoke. You
couldn't see the wall. And so go down the hallway
and up the stairs is running a firefighter. Everybody else
is leaving the building. So my neighbor and I are
standing there. And one of the things that when you
live in a fifth floor of a building is you
(08:56):
you get in pretty good shape and you also find
out what kind of shape all your friends are in
because some sort of jog up slowly and they they
pant and they get there and they're sort of proud
of themselves because they made it. Others you could go
watch a movie before they got from the ground floor
up to your apartment and then you've got to give
them a water or beer or something. This firefighter was
the opposite. This guy is literally running up the stairs.
(09:19):
He's carrying his axe. He's got a helmet. He's got
his heavy firefighter gear on. He's wearing boots. He's carrying
an oxygen tank on his back. And he says, and
I'm not exaggerating, he says, just like this, as he's
running up the stairs, could you two guys give me
a boost over the wall? I need to get to
the other building. So of course we say yes and
(09:39):
we go up one more flight to the roof of
our building and we give them a boost over the wall.
That's between our building and the building right next door.
And he was heavy. I was glad there were two
of us giving him a boost. So his job was
to smash a hole in the roof of the building
so that it would let some of the heat and
fire and smoke and everything escape. While his buddies were
(10:01):
fighting the fire with hoses and stuff from the side
and below. So then we're on our roof and we're
there already. So we said, Oh, let's look at the back.
So we go to the back of the building, we
see what's going on, the building next door to us,
which was an abandoned building. Had been torched. It was
arson and massive, massive amounts of thick black smoke of
(10:22):
pouring out, doing a U-turn and coming through our building.
So we go, All right, that's not good, but that's
a relief because that means like it's just that building.
We don't have to worry about our building. The firefighter
would have said something because it said, Oh, let's go
look at the front, which is the street side. So
we we we walked to the front of the building.
We're looking down and it's all very exciting stuff. There
(10:42):
were all these fire trucks, lots of firefighters. They were hoses,
they were ladders. They were doing all kinds of stuff.
One guy who was in charge is wearing like a
white hat instead of the standard firefighter hats. He has
a bullhorn and he yells up to us, he goes, you.
S5 (10:56):
Idiots, get off the roof and out of the building. Oh.
S3 (11:01):
No, he had a point there. So we did. We
get we get off the roof, we go down. My
neighbor went out. I stopped in my apartment and took
a shower and changed because I figured everything was okay.
I did it quickly, but. And then I went to work.
But it's just an example of a little adventure and
also of it's really good to pay attention to your
other senses. You know, don't ignore whatever your nose is
(11:24):
trying to tell you. You know, that sense of smell.
It could have saved my life if I should have
been the one like my neighbor helping to wake other
people up. But I just rolled over and went to
sleep and was thinking smog instead of smoke. And I
live and learn in terms of advantages. I think one
of the really good advantages that is very applicable to
(11:46):
business of having poor vision is people with poor vision
have an edge in public speaking. Many people in the
world are scared to death of public speaking. There have
been polls where a lot of people would choose death
over public speaking. They just rather die than have to
give a speech. Well, public speaking is less scary for
(12:06):
people with poor vision such as myself. First, you can't
really tell how big the audience is. You know, is
it a medium size or a large size? Is it
small or medium? Well, you can only see so many people.
I can only see so many people. So you're just
not intimidated by a larger audience? You can't recognize? I
can't recognize, you know, whether my friends are really in
(12:28):
the audience or not. So I'm not intimidated by, oh, well, wait,
I need to impress this person or my boss or whatever,
you know, that's beyond my vision. I can't tell any
of that stuff. So I'm more relaxed than people who
can see the audience. And then another thing is, often
when you're given a speech, there are lights on you
on the stage and you can't literally can't see the
(12:51):
audience at all because the lights are in your eyes. Well,
people who have good vision, that really bothers them because
they count on seeing facial expressions to judge the reaction
of the audience. Well, don't have that issue. I can't
see well enough to judge the facial expressions I'm used
to judging. And other people with poor vision are used
to judging the audience reaction by are they quiet and
(13:13):
hopefully listening at the right points? Are they laughing at
the right points or are they talking when they're clearly
indicates that they're not paying any attention? So you're used
to judging by the audio, not by the visual. So
we have an edge there. And then because I can't
read my notes easily and I can't because of seeing
(13:34):
them and I can't read my PowerPoint slides easily, even
though they're gigantic and probably right next to me, I
need to in advance.
S5 (13:42):
Practice.
S3 (13:43):
My speech, practice the outline, practice, whatever I'm going to say,
and be ready and relaxed with it. Well, just doing
that makes your speech much better. So those are the
advantages we have versus a lot of people. And often
in business or government or wherever you are, you have
to stand up and talk to a bunch of people,
whether it's small or big, and we have an edge,
(14:04):
which is pretty cool. Also, there's other things that help
a lot in this. One is I always try to
get somebody else. If there's questions and answers after the
speech to pick the people in the audience to ask
the question because I'm not necessarily going to see people
when they raise their hand or see people in the
back when they stand up and they want to ask
(14:24):
a question. So it's better to for me to get
somebody else to do that. Now, usually and it's always
easy to find somebody to volunteer, even if you don't
know anybody else in the room, you can just ask
the organizer and yes, yeah, yeah, they'd be happy to
do it. That has a couple advantages. First, you're not
going to leave somebody out who's been trying to ask
a question for half an hour. And second, you don't
(14:46):
have to pay attention to the whole thing. You don't
have to pay attention to who was the last person
to stand up, Who was the first person to stand up. Instead,
you can concentrate completely on the person who is asking
the question and answering that question, which makes your answer better.
So those are some advantages that we have. And there's
there's millions more. They all relate. They relate to balance, creativity,
(15:09):
living longer, better coordination in certain things, better use of
the senses. Like a. Like smell, but also taste, etcetera.
S5 (15:18):
So all that kind of stuff.
S1 (15:19):
So living longer, is it possible that maybe vision impaired
and blind people could become immortal.
S5 (15:27):
But don't know if that would be good or bad?
But I don't think that's really what I was thinking.
What I was really thinking is there were certain things
like sheet metal.
S3 (15:38):
Work and was.
S5 (15:39):
The captain of.
S3 (15:40):
My university parachuting team.
S5 (15:41):
Where there's certain activities which, if.
S3 (15:44):
I had not had poor vision, I would definitely have
continued doing okay.
S1 (15:48):
Well, thought it was worth a shot to try and
find out if maybe, you know, there was a path
to becoming a supervillain. But, you know, if there's not,
that's fine.
S4 (15:55):
Well, you know.
S5 (15:57):
We'll have to both.
S3 (15:58):
Think about that, because if there is, we should figure it.
S4 (16:00):
Out.
S1 (16:00):
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So you have a lot of experience
in the field of cyber security. This is a field
that is seeing such an increased demand and interest for
the lay people out here. What exactly is cyber security?
S3 (16:14):
Cyber security? First of all, it has the name has
changed over time and it's probably going to change a
bunch of times in the future, too. So cyber security
used to be called data processing security or information technology
security or information security, all of that. It's all wrapped
up in the same thing. So cyber security is how
(16:36):
do you protect information. So that includes stuff on computers,
stuff not on computers. How do you keep it safe
from hackers? How do you keep it safe from viruses?
How do you have it backed up so that if
something happens to your business or house or computer or
disk drive, that you actually can get to it again.
(16:59):
How do you prevent somebody else from purposefully or accidentally
changing any of your information? How do you teach people
how to deal with emails so that they understand which
ones they shouldn't open, which phone calls, asking them to
do certain things? They should ignore? That's people trying to
get to their information. That's all part of cyber security,
(17:21):
disaster recovery, planning, business continuity planning, all of that's part
of cyber security. It's a very broad field. Some of
it's very, very technical. Some of it's very, very non-technical.
You know, there's a huge range of things in there
you can be in in any of multiple parts. It's
an exciting field.
S1 (17:40):
What advice would you give to someone who was interested
in pursuing a career in cyber security?
S3 (17:46):
Several things. First, do all the basic stuff that you
should do when you're trying to pursue any career. So
go on LinkedIn, connect with every single person you know
that's on LinkedIn, you know, have a good CV, have
a good one minute explanation of why you'd be the
perfect person to hire. Have a good five minute explanation
of the same thing. Go do volunteer work related to
(18:10):
that area, study that area as much as possible. There's
such a massive amount of stuff on the internet about
all aspects of cybersecurity and everything else you want to know.
Become familiar with that. In terms of actual training and certifications,
there's different certifications and groups you can join. You can
start meeting people on on Meetup and over the net
(18:30):
that are completely into cybersecurity. And it's a very welcoming group.
So become involved in all of those things and then
major and take courses in cybersecurity. You know, you can
start start with information technology or with H.R. Whichever aspects
of cybersecurity you want to get into. There's a lot
of different things. You know, you could be a cybersecurity auditor,
(18:53):
you could be security assurance, you could be there's a
lot of different areas, you know, explore them, learn about them.
S5 (19:00):
All of that kind of stuff.
S1 (19:01):
So specifically for people who have low vision or are blind,
this has become a huge area of interest for people
to pursue as a career. Any advice specifically for those
people listening?
S4 (19:12):
Well.
S3 (19:13):
I can tell you a couple of things that are
going on. There's a university in Western Australia that has
a program for people who are blind to learn to
become network administrators. And some of the work that they're
doing is it's just colossal. I mean, these people are
really good at what they're doing and they have more
(19:35):
non Australians applying to be part of the program than
they do Australians. But they'd love to have a higher
number of Australians. There are some blind low vision people
who have their own information security firms and so there
are opportunities. There's also it's in the very, very, very
early stages. But Ron Hughton, the president of Vision Australia,
(19:59):
has started an initiative which is in the pre planning
stages where he wants to set up a program where
Vision Australia can coordinate with information security groups to try
to help more people go into this cybersecurity field. And
I'm working with. And Teresa is working with him on that.
I've talked to a lot of people in cybersecurity that
(20:21):
are interested in helping out, and the Australian Information Security
Association is interested in working with Vision Australia. So there'll
be a lot more opportunities in the future. But in
the meantime, do as much as you can on your own.
Get in touch with me, link with me.
S5 (20:36):
Get on the LinkedIn, connect.
S3 (20:37):
With me. I'd be happy to talk to any individual
who wants to go into cybersecurity and no matter where
you are in your level or what you're aspiring to.
S4 (20:46):
If you could.
S1 (20:47):
Speak to employers who are interviewing people who are blind
or have low vision, what would you say to them?
What could they do to make their companies more inclusive?
S3 (20:55):
I would say that probably will take longer for a
blind person to get oriented. And, you know, but it
takes everybody a while to get on it. It might
take longer, but.
S5 (21:07):
A.
S3 (21:08):
Lot of people who are blind have colossal technical skills.
They're really focused. And there's a bunch of statistics that
I've read where if a blind person gets a job,
they really, really more than most people want to keep
that job advance, get stronger, grow.
S5 (21:25):
Because there.
S3 (21:26):
Aren't as many opportunities for.
S5 (21:28):
So you might have a little bit.
S3 (21:30):
Longer startup.
S5 (21:31):
But you're going to have a tremendous.
S3 (21:33):
Payoff in the short, medium and.
S4 (21:35):
Long term. I mean, a.
S1 (21:36):
Lot of employers also just aren't aware of the adaptations
that can be made and the types of thing that
vision impaired people can do.
S3 (21:44):
Exactly. The technology that's available is colossal now. It's dramatically
better than than five, ten, 20 years ago.
S1 (21:52):
And also, you know, since vision impaired people on blind
people live forever, they can now have employees work for longer.
S4 (22:00):
Exactly.
S5 (22:02):
The other thing is, if I was having a conversation
with an employer, I would also say, you know, don't
forget the most obvious of things. A blind person is
a person. You know, they're like everybody else in 99%.
S3 (22:15):
Of their of.
S5 (22:16):
Respects, you know, in terms.
S3 (22:18):
Of capabilities, intelligence drive. You know, it's.
S5 (22:21):
You know, they've got this other hurdle, but they're.
S3 (22:23):
Used to getting over that other hurdle.
S1 (22:25):
Absolutely. That's such a great point. Is there any other
advice or pieces of wisdom that you'd like to share
with people can do everything.
S3 (22:33):
You can to help your vision.
S5 (22:34):
You know, whatever.
S3 (22:35):
General health working out, do whatever your your eye doctor.
S5 (22:40):
Says, you know.
S3 (22:41):
Wear glasses, wear protective glasses, wear contacts.
S5 (22:44):
Whatever, operate If there's anything you can.
S3 (22:46):
Do to improve your vision, do.
S5 (22:47):
That. Then, you know, just be grateful. You know, you're
going to reach some.
S3 (22:51):
Some peak point, you know, wherever you are and it's
not going to improve. And then just be grateful for
whatever vision you have.
S5 (22:58):
Then figure out what you want to do and go
for it. Just give it a red hot go and
you're going to have some stumbles, you're going have some falls.
S3 (23:09):
Some things are hard to do.
S5 (23:11):
Well, almost all.
S3 (23:12):
Good things are hard.
S5 (23:13):
To do. Well, just go for it and you'll be
amazed at how much you can get done. Other people
will be amazed.
S3 (23:19):
At how much you can get done. But you know.
S5 (23:21):
Enjoy yourself, laugh at yourself along the.
S3 (23:24):
Way. You'll have a good time.
S1 (23:26):
Thank you very much, Ken. Not all good things are
hard to do because this was an absolute pleasure. Everybody,
please go out and pick up Ken's book, Positive Vision
Enjoying the adventures and advantages of poor eyesight. The conversation
doesn't have to stop here. Share this podcast episode on
social media and start a conversation with your friends, family,
(23:50):
and followers, or tell us what's on your mind. You
can provide feedback through the email Career podcast at Vision Australia.
Org The Career Path Podcast series is available to download
via our website. Just go to Vision Australia org and
type the career path into the search field to find
our webpage where you can listen to other episodes benefit
(24:11):
from a range of resources and subscribe to ensure you
don't miss any episodes or find us on your favorite
podcast platform. Remember to follow us on Facebook and Twitter
for updates and bonus content. Facebook.com slash Radio network and
Twitter.com slash VA radio network. Thanks for traveling with us
(24:31):
along the career path.
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