October 23, 2025 • 35 mins
North Carolina lawmakers have officially approved new congressional districts, completing the 2026 redistricting process. Debate on the House floor reflected deep partisan divisions as Democrats objected to the new map’s structure, while Republicans defended it as constitutionally sound. Governor Josh Stein commented on the plan, calling it a disservice to voters and warning of potential legal challenges. Meanwhile, Decarlos Brown Jr. has been formally indicted by U.S. Attorney Russ Ferguson in connection with the murder of Iryna Zarutska on Charlotte’s light rail line.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
It's five oh five and welcome into you a Thursday
edition of the Carolina Journal News Hour, Newstock eleven, ten
ninety nine three WBT. I'm Nick Craig. Good morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
A busy day continued in Raleigh on Wednesday, as the
North Carolina General Assembly officially approved new congressional districts, which
are now in effect. The new maps passed both the
House and Senate, the Senate on Tuesday, the House on Wednesday,
and they are now in effect across at North Carolina.
Last week, lawmakers proposed a new map to gain an
(00:41):
additional Republican congressional seat in the twenty twenty six midterm elections.
Republican lawmakers claim that this is necessary to combat redistricting
efforts in Democrat majority states like California. House Majority Leader
in Representative Brendan Jones, the Republican from Columbia County, told
this House colleagues that North Carolina will not stand by
(01:05):
while this takes place in states across the US.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Once again, we're here today because California and the radical
left launched a full fledged, coordinated attack not only on
North Carolina, but the integrity of democracy itself. And I've
got bad news from Gavin Newsom and the radical left.
North Carolina will not stand by while they tried to
undermine the will of our voters and stack the decks
(01:30):
in Washington. Sadly, this isn't new. Just look around the country.
In Massachusetts, New Mexico, and Connecticut, Republicans hold zero congressional
seats due to Democrat congressional map gerry manders. It's the
same playbook over and over. Well enough is enough. We
(01:51):
have been called to fight back, and that's exactly what
this body intends to do. The motivation behind this new
redistrict plan is straightforward. The new congressional map improves Republican
political strength in eastern North Carolina, and we'll bring in
an additional Republican seat to North Carolina's congressional delegation.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
That's Representative Brendan Jones from a Columbus county, echoing similar
commentary to that that we heard from the Republicans in
the United States Senate, or rather the North Carolina Senate.
I should say when this map originally came up to
that body earlier this week Monday and Tuesday, Representative Jones
continued his commentary saying that North Carolina will not be
(02:33):
bullied by what is going on in other states.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
The same national organizations that are talking heads who praised
the blue state maps will continue attacking ours, not because
of the process, but because of the outcome. But the
people of North Carolina didn't elect us to surrender our responsibilities.
They elected us to lead. So to the national left,
I'm sorry your favorite government, Sacramento miscalculated, Opposition fifty has backfired.
(03:02):
Republican led states are here to make sure that one
man does not predetermine the controls of Congress. North Carolina
will not be lectured, will not be bullied, and will
not be sued into submission. We will not let outsiders
tell us how to govern, and we will never apologize
for doing exactly what the people of this state has
elected us to do. We did our job transparently, lawfully,
(03:28):
and unapologetically, and if that offends the left, so be it.
Because what we're defending here today is not just a map.
It's the principle that stops to deck from being stacked
against us. It's the principle that our delegation in Congress
will advocate for the true beliefs of North Carolinians, and
it is a fact that we will send one more
Republican to Congress from this great state. You can be
(03:52):
mad about redistioning all you want to, but you need
to look in the mirror and ask yourself what God
us here and I think. Then you will begin to
just how bad the laft mass does.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Once again, Representative Jones in the North Carolina General Assembly
on Wednesday. With this final approval and the final House
vote of sixty six to forty eight in favor of
the map, it is now in effect in North Carolina.
Unlike standard legislation, of which we have covered plenty of
here on the show, this map does not require the
(04:24):
governor's approval. There's nothing that the governor can do to
block or slow down the process for that map. It
is something that is simply the responsibility of the North
Carolina General Assembly. Wilson, Wayne, Green, and Lenore Counties are
moved into District three from District one. Craven, Beaufort, Pamlico, Carteret, Hide,
(04:44):
and Dare Counties are moved from District three into District one.
As you can imagine, this is a highly political issue,
as we have been covering here on the show this
week and Democrat members of the North Carolina General Assembly
are not, and we're not in favor of the map
being redrawn. It did not vote in favor of approving it.
(05:05):
Representative Beth Helfrich from Mecklenburg County gave some of her
commentary on what she believes is going on with these maps.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
As a former English teacher, I pay close attention to
words and to phrases, and one phrase I've heard a
lot over the past several days is answering the call.
A sitting president has asked states to rig their voting
districts in order to avoid accountability in the midterms. And
(05:35):
here we are answering the call, but enforcing this bill
through today. You know whose calls we are refusing to answer. Yours, yours, yours,
and the tens of thousands of other people across this
(05:56):
state from each of our districts who have been calling us,
emailing us, writing us, submitting public comments, traveling here by
bus and by carpool, asking us to simply say no, no,
We will not further rig our voting districts at the
(06:18):
request of one person. But answering the call, of course,
is not just about picking up the phone. It's about
responding to challenge out of a sense of duty. I
thought our duty was to the Constitution and to the
people of North Carolina. And they are overwhelmingly opposed to
(06:43):
this bill.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's Representative Beth Helferich, the Democrat out of Mecklenberg County
District ninety eight, which covers the Cornelius and Davidson area
near Lake Norman in Mecklenburg County. Other Democrats, of course,
not happy with the map as well. Representative Phil Rubin,
the Democrat from Wake County, called the new map an
attack on North Carolina during his commentary on the House
(07:06):
floor on Wednesday.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Today's latest attack by Republicans on self governance in North
Carolina follows the attack on our Board of Elections. It
follows a brazen attempt to steal a Supreme Court election.
And it all adds up to a sense that there
are those in our government that think only the right
people may ever hold power, and that the rules must
be rigged to make sure that people can never disagree
(07:28):
with those choices. And now we're here today, the Republican
Party holding a vote of no confidence on our self
government in North Carolina. To make our already rigged maps
even worse. But it's not just the maps themselves. Behold
the process that led to today secretive, dismissive, six days
(07:50):
long from end to end, and frankly disrespectful of the
people of North Carolina. Dismissive of the people of North Carolina.
You have treated them as obstacles to be managed, even
talked down to here in this debate today, not citizens
to be heard. And it would be bad enough if
they were simply ignored. And they were ignored. No one
(08:10):
looked at those comments. We all know that no one
looked at that, no one tried to take their feedback
into consideration. And why even have a public comment period
if you're going to dismiss all of their comments when
they're clearly one direction.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
That's Representative Phil Reubin, the Democrat out of Wake County,
again calling those an attack on North Carolina, saying that
the General Assembly made a vote of no confidence in voters,
presumably referring to those voters in the first and third
congressional district in the northeast half of the state. Regardless
of the Democrat outrage on the House floor yesterday, the
(08:44):
protesters in the gallery that had to be removed because
they could not stop adjeering during the ongoing debate that
was taking place and the public comment that has taken
place over the last couple of weeks. Republicans do have
a majority in the North Carolina General Assembly, a super
majority in the Senate, a simple majority actually one vote
shy of the supermajority in the North Carolina House, and
(09:06):
with that final sixty six to forty eight vote on
Wednesday afternoon, these new maps are now in effect, and
a candidate filing for the twenty twenty six midterm elections
that will likely give Republicans an additional congressional representative from
North Carolina will begin in early December. As it stands
(09:27):
right now, North Carolina's current maps currently elect ten Republicans
and four Democrats. Under this new map, that number would
likely be eleven Republicans and three Democrats. As I mentioned
that this map cannot be vetoed or stopped by Governor
Josh Stein. Immediately after the vote in the North Carolina
(09:49):
House on Wednesday, the governor released a lengthy video to
social media talking about the maps, demanding that the General
Assembly get back to work on other pet projects that
the governor says are essential for the state moving forward.
We'll get into those details coming up here in just
a couple of minutes. It's five twenty Welcome back to
(10:13):
the Carolina Journal, News Our News Talk eleven ten ninety
nine three WBTA. Busy week in Raleigh as the North
Carolina General Assembly did exactly what they indicated last week
took up redistricting. After successful votes in the Senate on
Tuesday the House on Wednesday, a new congressional map is
officially in effect across North Carolina. The counties of moving between.
(10:36):
Some counties moving between districts one and three to give
Republicans an additional advantage in the upcoming midterm elections. Wilson, Wayne, Green,
and Lenore Counties are moved from District three District one
into District three. Craven, Beaufort, Pamlico, Carteret, Hyde, and Dare
Counties are moved from District three into District one. This
(10:58):
is a very partisan issue on folding in the General Assembly,
and the governor has no ability to veto or block
new maps from being drawn in North Carolina. Governor Democrat
Governor Josh Stein released a video on his social media
accounts yesterday afternoon after the final approval of these maps.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
North Killineans have voted under different congressional maps and five
out of the last six elections, and today the General
Assembly is abusing its power to pass yet another congressional
map for the twenty twenty six mid terms. Why to
try to hand President Trump another Republican seat in the
(11:38):
House of Representatives. Under North Carolina's constitution, the governor does
not have the power to veto redistricting maps. If I
did have that power, I assure you I would veto
this map. True leadership is knowing when and whether to
use your power. Republican legislative leaders are abusing their power
(11:58):
to take away yours. They're afraid that they will lose
in the midterms and afraid to say no to the President,
so they've turned their backs on you to silence your
vote in the twenty twenty sixth election. It's outrageous when
a candidate or a party loses an election. You're supposed
to work like hell to connect better with voters so
(12:19):
that you can win the next time. You do, not
rig the rules of the game to guarantee your victory.
The voters be damned. America is a representative democracy where
people choose who represents them, not the other way around.
The Republican General Assembly is damaging this core principle. Understand
(12:40):
that in the last election, slightly more than half of
the state voted for Republican candidate for Congress. Yet instead
of having half the seats, the Republicans want to seize
seventy nine percent of them. That's four out of five seats.
This is a general Assembly that refuses to pass a budget.
North Colin's one of only two states in the entire
(13:02):
country that doesn't have a budget. But we're the only
state where both legislative chambers are controlled by the same
political party. Teachers, law enforcement, and other public servants are
waiting on much deserved pay increases the General Assembly refuses
to provide them. Medicaid recipients and providers are feeling the
pain of the legislature's forced cuts because they've refused to
(13:27):
fully fund Medicaid, and now the General Assembly is failing
you by taking away your power to choose who represents
you in Congress. It's disgraceful and its pastime. Republican legislators
got their priorities straight. I am ready to sign a
budget that values our teachers helps law enforcement, keep us safe,
(13:48):
protects health care access for the most vulnerable, and puts
North Carolina on a path of opportunity for every person.
And I will never stop fighting for you because I
know I work for you. You, the people of North Carolina,
not a political party, not the president.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
You.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Those are the comments from Democrat Governor Josh Stein as
he released that video in the immediate aftermath of lawmakers
approving new congressional maps in the General Assembly this week.
A couple of comments from the governor that I think
are rather interesting following some similar threads that we heard
this week in the General Assembly, whether it was during
the public comment period or during debate in both the
(14:31):
House and Senate the various committees that this legislation went through,
that North Carolina should have a fifty to fifty congressional map.
It's an interesting question and an interesting point. We'll talk
to doctor Andy Jackson of the John Locke Foundation coming
up in a little bit about this notion. It is
important to note that unlike electing the governor, the president,
or other statewide elected offices, members of Congress are elected
(14:55):
via their district and those districts, of course have a
variety of things that need to be set up for
them to be legal congressional districts. One of the big
ones is that they have to have relatively equal population.
That is why you have district maps. The Typically in
large urban areas, whether you're talking about Mecklenburg Charlotte, whether
you're talking about Raleigh, Wake County, or some of our
(15:17):
other larger municipalities, you'll see much smaller congressional districts compared
to portions of the eastern or western half of the state,
where there is far less population. It is all due
to the fact that our fourteen members of Congress, for
the most part, have pretty equal number of constituents and
citizens that they represent. The governor also talked about the
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state not having a full budget, and while that is
true North Carolina unlike other states, unlike the federal government
in Washington, DC, as we sit here day twenty three
of the federal government shut down, the current last fiscal
year budget does remain in effect in North Carolina. A
new mini budget was proposed by the General Assent this week.
(16:00):
It did pass both the House and Senate and does
currently sit on Democrat Governor Josh Stein's desk for a
signature with the vast majority of that mini budget dealing
with additional recovery and relief efforts out inn in the
western half of North Carolina as it relates to Hurricane Helene,
giving a local businesses as well as a small towns
(16:22):
and governments some more flexibility and more breathing room as
it relates to money that they have even have either
borrowed from the State of North Carolina or short term
loans that they have received to complete the immense amount
of construction work that has of course been required to
get some of those areas in the western half of
our state rebuilt and operational. The governor also highlighting that
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he does not have the authority to go forward and
veto or block these maps. Well back in the mid
and early nineteen nineties, Democrats, who had controlled the North
Carolina General Assembly for the better part of ninety years
at that point, decided that they were going to introduce
the veto the State of North Carolina did not have
(17:06):
the governor, i should say, did not have the ability
to veto legislation. Prior to the nineteen nineties, Democrats, including
former Democrat Governor Roy Cooper, who was a Senator at
the time introduced the veto giving the state's governor the
ability to do that. However, they explicitly did not give
the governor the opportunity to veto congressional maps or any
(17:30):
other maps that come out of the North Carolina General Assembly.
That is the reason why Governor Stein does not have
the ability to do that. With everything that we have
watched this week, again those maps are now in effect.
We'll talk and get some additional information with doctor Andy
Jackson from the John Locke Foundation, coming up questions about
(17:51):
potential litigation against these maps and how this process will
continue to play out over the next six weeks or
so as we get into Canada filing for maps or
for seats that will that are now affected by these
new Republican controlled congressional maps. We'll get into those details.
Coming up here in just a couple of minutes. It's
(18:18):
five thirty six. Welcome back to the Carolina Journal News Hour,
Newstock eleven, ten ninety nine three WBT. We'll chat with
Doc Brandy Jackson from the John Locke Foundation coming up
here in just a couple of minutes. However, we do
have some news this morning out of the US Attorney's
Office for Western North Carolina. Russ Ferguson has formally indicted
to Carlos Brown Junior, that is, the man who is
(18:41):
accused of killing Arena Zaruskaan the Charlotte Light railback. On
August the twenty second, a grand jury has come back
with charges count one violence against a railroad carrier and
mass transportation system resulting in depth. It reads as followed,
to Carlos Brown Junior did knowingly and without lawful authority
(19:03):
and permission, commit an act including the use of a
dangerous weapon as defined in eighteen USC. Nineteen ninety two
D two, with the intent to cause death and serious
bodily injury to any person, and the act resulted in
the death of a person who was on a terminal structure, track,
and facility used in the operation of, or in support
(19:25):
of the operation of a railroad carrier and mass transportation
vehicle under circumstances in which the railroad, on track, equipment,
and mass transportation vehicle was carrying one or more passengers
and employees at the time of the offense, and any
of the conduct required for this offense was engaged in
on or against affecting a mass transportation provider and railroad
(19:50):
carrier engaged in interstate and foreign commerce in this case
talking about the Charlotte area transportation system. There are some
other charge are the council within this grand jury indictment. However,
it is important to note that this violence against a
railroad carrier and mass transportation system resulting in death could
(20:11):
let this come forth as something that the federal government
seeks the death penalty in this case. We will, of course,
and as we have in the months past, we'll have
continued coverage of the death of Arena Zaruska and the
charges and the legal proceedings that will follow against a
Carlos Brown Junior. We'll keep you up to date with
all the details over on our website Carolina Journal dot
(20:33):
com and right here on the Carolina Journal News Hour.
The political topic of the week here in North Carolina
politics has been redistricting. Maps are now said and done
to fully moving through the North Carolina House and Senate.
To get details on where everything stands right now in
the latest nobody better than doctor Andy Jackson from the
John Locke Foundation, He joins us this morning on the
(20:54):
Carolina Journal News Hour. Andy, a busy week in Raleigh.
It looks like in terms of additional work to be done.
Redistricting is now complete here, at least for North Carolina's
congressional districts.
Speaker 6 (21:05):
Yeah, they got it done yesterday, and as we expected,
it was a pretty quick process. We're only looking at
tweaking two districts. They shifted some counties between the second
and the third district and essentially kind of split the difference.
Whereas before the first district was very competitive and the
(21:27):
third district was pretty solidly Republican. Now we have two
lean Republican districts, So unless we have kind of a
tidal way of election, we could expect Republicans to win
in both of those Andy.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
There have been a couple of discussions and points about this. Obviously,
this whole discussion is inherently very political. You've got a
Republican led General Assembly that is doing this yere in
North Carolina. As I think folks can imagine Democrats not
happy with the redraw of this map. Based on the
state law Indian, based on the state constitution, Is this
(21:59):
something that Republicans, because they are in the majority, have
the authority to do in Raleigh.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Yes, they do. Now, the North Carolina Constitution says that
General Assembly districts, once drawn, cannot be redrawn until the
next census. So unless you have a court order saying, hey,
you've got to do it because there was some violation
of the state or federal constitutions, that's what you get.
But there's no such thing for congressional districts. So in theory,
(22:28):
the General Assembly could just redraw them after each election,
you know, they get a new set of data. Oh,
let's tweak the districts a little bit. Maybe we could
you know, shore up an incumbent or you know, let
with it this time, kind of pick up another district.
And so, yeah, we we have that process in place here,
and I don't expect that we'll have another round of
(22:50):
redistricting after twenty twenty six, just because at some point
there's only so much you can squeeze out. I mean,
you theoretically could have a twelve to two map. I mean,
that is doable. I've kind of played with maps and
I know you can do it. But by doing that,
Republicans would really be spreading themselves then, which is by
(23:13):
the way, what Democrats did in their general Assembly districts
before the twenty ten election, and that came back and
blew up in their face.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
So as we watch this process as it continues to unfold.
The maps are now officially in law here in North Carolina.
Candidate filing for these elections Andy will open up in
the early and middle parts of December. However, one of
the things that you've been writing about over at the
John Locke Foundation, We've had some quotes over at Carolina
Journal dot com is that litigation is likely with these maps.
(23:43):
Democrats taking an interesting stand in Raleigh on this, saying,
you know, the state has spent twenty two some odd
million dollars in litigation costs since twenty ten every time
maps are redrawn. Do you suspect that there will be
some litigation with these redraws of the first and third
congressional districts.
Speaker 6 (24:01):
That will definitely be litigation. I mean, there are always
is litigation. North Carolina has been kind of a haven
for lawyers in order if they want to make a
few bucks suing the state. I don't expect that it'll
get too far. We had we had pretty similar lawsuit
in the same part of the state over state senate
(24:23):
districts recently, I mean just this year, and that lawsuit
got tossed. The judge said that they couldn't prove that
these were a racial jerrymanders. Political jerrymanders have already been
kind of taken off the shelf by both the US
and North Carolina Supreme Courts, and since we have, we're
(24:43):
kind of backtracking in North Carolina on the racial gerrymander
in front, as long as the state isn't trying to
actually disenfranchise black voters, but they're just trying to get
a political advantage for their side. You know, if that's
the goal, then it's been increasingly difficult for plaintiff to
prove a racial jerry mandarin claim, and I don't expect
they'll be able to succeed here.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Well, let me ask you about this race question. That
was a major talking point not only for Democrat members
of the North Carolina House and Senate, but for anybody
that listened to the public comment that's taken place this week.
Pretty Much every individual speaking publicly on this andy called
these maps either racist or Senator Ralph Heist, the individual
who drew them in the Senate him by himself, he
(25:26):
is a racist for drawing these maps. Yet we've heard
from individuals like Senator Heiss Or Brendan Jones over in
the House that no racial data was used in drawing
these maps. Does that maybe bolster the argument from a
legal perspective here for Republicans that they didn't use any
of that race based data and redrawing these two districts.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
I mean, the judge in that other case on the
State Senate actually pointed out that they didn't use racial data,
and that was a point in the favor of the
General Assembly. On that the district went roughly from forty
one percent black to I think thirty three maybe thirty
four percent black, So there was a decrease to number
(26:08):
of black voters, but proportionally less than the movement on
the political front. And if the change in the racial
composition is incidental to pursuing a change in the political
composition of a district, the courts, and we had a
case in South Carolina on this a year or two ago,
the courts have upheld that, so I expected we're going
(26:30):
to see the same thing here. Planoffs will aast for
a preliminary injunction. They probably won't get it. It kind
of depends on which judge they get. And then we're
going to go ahead and have this election in twenty
twenty six, no matter what happens with the regular court case,
and then they'll decide on the merits later on.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
That preliminary injunction could be interesting here, as I mentioned Andy,
the candidate filing for this, even though the election is
in November of next year, if there's multiple candidates running
for the same party, there is a primary and early
that's pretty relatively soon right around the corner. So the
candidate filing open soon. Do you see any likelihood that
a pulminary injunction gets issued in the next It's got
(27:09):
to be what probably six weeks or so before candidates
will be determining what districts they run for.
Speaker 6 (27:15):
I think it's unlikely. And once again I'll point out
that that lawsuit over the state Senate districts, they saw
a preliminary injunction. They didn't get a preliminary injunction. In
order to get a preliminary injunction you have to One
of the things you have to do is show that
you are likely to succeed on the merit. So you
present out this first set of evidence, you know, XYZ,
(27:35):
So we feel pretty strongly about this. And you know,
obviously the defendants will say, no, I don't think they'll prevail,
But they didn't get the preliminary injunction for that State
Senate lawsuit, and I think we have a very similar
set of circumstances here. You know, same part of the state,
same basic racial data compositions, going on, same pattern on
(27:56):
what we call the so called jingles test to demonstrate
whether or not this is something that is worth considering
as a racial gerrymander. And on all of these they
seem the point in the same direction. So they're probably
not going to get that pulmonary injunction. And then you know,
the plaintiffs and us, the Democrats are going to have
to hope they can come up with a new set
(28:17):
of arguments, a new set of statistics, a better group
of experts when they get to the merit phase of
the trial.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
We will continue the conversation with doctor Andy Jackson from
the John Locke Foundation coming up after this. You're listening
to the Carolina Journal News Hour. It's five point fifty one.
Good morning again. Welcome back to the Carolina Journal News Hour,
Newstock eleven, ten ninety nine to three WBT continuing our
(28:46):
conversation this morning with doctor Andy Jackson from the John
Locke Foundation on redistricting that took place this week in
the North Carolina General Assembly. For those that followed the
General Assembly closely, they are familiar with the process that
legislation goes through Andy. It's either introduced in the House
or Senate, goes over to the other chamber, and then
goes to the governor's desk for signature. These congressional maps
(29:08):
are a little bit different. Even though there is a
bill number associated with them, the governor actually has no
play in that at all.
Speaker 6 (29:14):
What gives on that, Well, yeah, this is a relic
of the nineteen nineties when they gave the governor the veto.
The General Assembly at that time was controlled by Democrats,
and they had experience and this was when Jim Hunt
his second time around. The Democrats had experience with a
Republican governor. So they knew that, well, maybe there's going
(29:36):
to be a Republican governor sometime and if we draw
maps to benefit us, the governor might veto them. And
so they never expected that Republicans would actually take over
the General Assembly, and so they made sure that the
governor could not veto redistricting legislation, and now this has
really come back to kind of bite them because now
(29:58):
they're in a situation where you have Democratic governor who
cannot veto redistricting that the Republican legislature has passed.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
One of the things that was also a prominent discussion
this week was Andy, we need fair maps, we need
equal maps. We have fourteen congressional districts in North Carolina.
That is a pretty easy number to divide in half.
Seven Republicans seven Democrats. Can you walk me through why
something like that is not wholly practical here in North Carolina?
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Or maybe it is.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
What exactly is a basis for some of these seven
to seven claims?
Speaker 6 (30:32):
Well, with modern technology and data, you can draw almost anything.
I mean, if I really set my mind to it,
I could probably draw a ten to four democratic map.
It would take a lot of work, but you could
do it.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Now.
Speaker 6 (30:44):
Should I do it? No? Now, there has been work,
and this is the result of experts coming out in
some of these other lawsuits that we've had in the past,
and that data has shown if you use politically neutral critera,
you don't care about the politics involved, you don't consider
election results. You don't consider voter registration. You just consider
(31:04):
head counts. You try to keep counties whole, You try
to keep districts reasonably compact. For example, you know, Charlotte's
big enough city, it should have its own congressional district.
Great counties big enough that it should have a whole
congressional district inside of it. As long as you stick
to traditional criteria, don't bother with politics or political results.
(31:28):
In North Carolina, you normally get either an eight six
or a nine to five Republican map. There's some variation there.
A seven seven map is just as much an artificial
creation as a ten to four or an eleven three map.
That is not the way. That is not the political
(31:48):
geography of North Carolina. First of all, North Carolina is
basically a fifty two to forty eight Republican state that's
worth probably at least one additional Republican district. And the
patterns with Democrats tending to be more concentrated in some
of these urban enclaves probably is what pushes it up
to a nine to five. So that's that's kind of
(32:09):
the natural number, not really a seven to seven.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I'm glad you bring up some of that discussion over
urban areas, because that is an important part of it.
And if you look at a map of all one
hundred counties from the twenty twenty four presidential election, you'll
see that over seventy percent of the counties overall voted
to Trump over Harris. That is a lot of in
part due to the fact that many more rural areas
in North Carolina tend to be a little bit stronger
(32:34):
Republican strongholds versus where you look at these urban cores,
as you mentioned Charlotte, the Raleigh area over in other
parts of the state tend to have these more compact
areas of Democrat voters. Kind of makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
It does now anyway, it doesn't necessarily have to be
the way you know right now. The way it works
advantages Republicans because the rural areas are by and large Republican.
Those are areas are heavily democratic, and Republicans tend to
have an advantage in the suburbs as well. It doesn't
always have to be that way. I know, up in Canada,
(33:09):
for example, the Liberals tend to dominate the suburbs. So
if Democrats can successfully win in suburban areas or these
outlying counties like Johnston County that surround Raleigh, for example,
or Union County near Charlotte. If they can succeed in
appealing to those voters, the political geography could shift and
(33:30):
then you could see you nine to five democratic maps,
for example, that are drawn politically neutral.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
It's a lot of great information and insight this morning.
We appreciate the details and the time from doctor Andy
Jackson from the John Locke Foundation. You can recontinued coverage
of redistricting over on our website this morning, Carolina Journal
dot com. And yes, that continued coverage does and is
this morning over on our website Carolina Journal dot com.
You can watch and read some of the reaction from lawmakers,
(33:59):
Republicans and Democrats. Governor Josh Stein releasing a video on
his social media account yesterday saying that Republican leaders in
the North Carolina General Assembly have failed the people of
North Carolina, demanding that the legislature start working on other priorities,
including a passing a budget. We did learn some interesting
(34:20):
information yesterday from House Speaker Destin Hall that the House
will likely not have any additional votes for the remainder
of this calendar year. We'll keep an eye on all
those details over on our website, Carolina Journal dot com.
That's going to do it For a Thursday edition of
the Carolina Journal News Hour WBT News is next, followed
(34:40):
by Good Morning BT. We're back with you tomorrow morning,
five to six right here on News Talk eleven, ten
and ninety nine to three WBT
It's five oh five and welcome into you a Thursday
edition of the Carolina Journal News Hour, Newstock eleven, ten
ninety nine three WBT. I'm Nick Craig. Good morning to you.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
A busy day continued in Raleigh on Wednesday, as the
North Carolina General Assembly officially approved new congressional districts, which
are now in effect. The new maps passed both the
House and Senate, the Senate on Tuesday, the House on Wednesday,
and they are now in effect across at North Carolina.
Last week, lawmakers proposed a new map to gain an
(00:41):
additional Republican congressional seat in the twenty twenty six midterm elections.
Republican lawmakers claim that this is necessary to combat redistricting
efforts in Democrat majority states like California. House Majority Leader
in Representative Brendan Jones, the Republican from Columbia County, told
this House colleagues that North Carolina will not stand by
(01:05):
while this takes place in states across the US.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Once again, we're here today because California and the radical
left launched a full fledged, coordinated attack not only on
North Carolina, but the integrity of democracy itself. And I've
got bad news from Gavin Newsom and the radical left.
North Carolina will not stand by while they tried to
undermine the will of our voters and stack the decks
(01:30):
in Washington. Sadly, this isn't new. Just look around the country.
In Massachusetts, New Mexico, and Connecticut, Republicans hold zero congressional
seats due to Democrat congressional map gerry manders. It's the
same playbook over and over. Well enough is enough. We
(01:51):
have been called to fight back, and that's exactly what
this body intends to do. The motivation behind this new
redistrict plan is straightforward. The new congressional map improves Republican
political strength in eastern North Carolina, and we'll bring in
an additional Republican seat to North Carolina's congressional delegation.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
That's Representative Brendan Jones from a Columbus county, echoing similar
commentary to that that we heard from the Republicans in
the United States Senate, or rather the North Carolina Senate.
I should say when this map originally came up to
that body earlier this week Monday and Tuesday, Representative Jones
continued his commentary saying that North Carolina will not be
(02:33):
bullied by what is going on in other states.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
The same national organizations that are talking heads who praised
the blue state maps will continue attacking ours, not because
of the process, but because of the outcome. But the
people of North Carolina didn't elect us to surrender our responsibilities.
They elected us to lead. So to the national left,
I'm sorry your favorite government, Sacramento miscalculated, Opposition fifty has backfired.
(03:02):
Republican led states are here to make sure that one
man does not predetermine the controls of Congress. North Carolina
will not be lectured, will not be bullied, and will
not be sued into submission. We will not let outsiders
tell us how to govern, and we will never apologize
for doing exactly what the people of this state has
elected us to do. We did our job transparently, lawfully,
(03:28):
and unapologetically, and if that offends the left, so be it.
Because what we're defending here today is not just a map.
It's the principle that stops to deck from being stacked
against us. It's the principle that our delegation in Congress
will advocate for the true beliefs of North Carolinians, and
it is a fact that we will send one more
Republican to Congress from this great state. You can be
(03:52):
mad about redistioning all you want to, but you need
to look in the mirror and ask yourself what God
us here and I think. Then you will begin to
just how bad the laft mass does.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Once again, Representative Jones in the North Carolina General Assembly
on Wednesday. With this final approval and the final House
vote of sixty six to forty eight in favor of
the map, it is now in effect in North Carolina.
Unlike standard legislation, of which we have covered plenty of
here on the show, this map does not require the
(04:24):
governor's approval. There's nothing that the governor can do to
block or slow down the process for that map. It
is something that is simply the responsibility of the North
Carolina General Assembly. Wilson, Wayne, Green, and Lenore Counties are
moved into District three from District one. Craven, Beaufort, Pamlico, Carteret, Hide,
(04:44):
and Dare Counties are moved from District three into District one.
As you can imagine, this is a highly political issue,
as we have been covering here on the show this
week and Democrat members of the North Carolina General Assembly
are not, and we're not in favor of the map
being redrawn. It did not vote in favor of approving it.
(05:05):
Representative Beth Helfrich from Mecklenburg County gave some of her
commentary on what she believes is going on with these maps.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
As a former English teacher, I pay close attention to
words and to phrases, and one phrase I've heard a
lot over the past several days is answering the call.
A sitting president has asked states to rig their voting
districts in order to avoid accountability in the midterms. And
(05:35):
here we are answering the call, but enforcing this bill
through today. You know whose calls we are refusing to answer. Yours, yours, yours,
and the tens of thousands of other people across this
(05:56):
state from each of our districts who have been calling us,
emailing us, writing us, submitting public comments, traveling here by
bus and by carpool, asking us to simply say no, no,
We will not further rig our voting districts at the
(06:18):
request of one person. But answering the call, of course,
is not just about picking up the phone. It's about
responding to challenge out of a sense of duty. I
thought our duty was to the Constitution and to the
people of North Carolina. And they are overwhelmingly opposed to
(06:43):
this bill.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's Representative Beth Helferich, the Democrat out of Mecklenberg County
District ninety eight, which covers the Cornelius and Davidson area
near Lake Norman in Mecklenburg County. Other Democrats, of course,
not happy with the map as well. Representative Phil Rubin,
the Democrat from Wake County, called the new map an
attack on North Carolina during his commentary on the House
(07:06):
floor on Wednesday.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Today's latest attack by Republicans on self governance in North
Carolina follows the attack on our Board of Elections. It
follows a brazen attempt to steal a Supreme Court election.
And it all adds up to a sense that there
are those in our government that think only the right
people may ever hold power, and that the rules must
be rigged to make sure that people can never disagree
(07:28):
with those choices. And now we're here today, the Republican
Party holding a vote of no confidence on our self
government in North Carolina. To make our already rigged maps
even worse. But it's not just the maps themselves. Behold
the process that led to today secretive, dismissive, six days
(07:50):
long from end to end, and frankly disrespectful of the
people of North Carolina. Dismissive of the people of North Carolina.
You have treated them as obstacles to be managed, even
talked down to here in this debate today, not citizens
to be heard. And it would be bad enough if
they were simply ignored. And they were ignored. No one
(08:10):
looked at those comments. We all know that no one
looked at that, no one tried to take their feedback
into consideration. And why even have a public comment period
if you're going to dismiss all of their comments when
they're clearly one direction.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
That's Representative Phil Reubin, the Democrat out of Wake County,
again calling those an attack on North Carolina, saying that
the General Assembly made a vote of no confidence in voters,
presumably referring to those voters in the first and third
congressional district in the northeast half of the state. Regardless
of the Democrat outrage on the House floor yesterday, the
(08:44):
protesters in the gallery that had to be removed because
they could not stop adjeering during the ongoing debate that
was taking place and the public comment that has taken
place over the last couple of weeks. Republicans do have
a majority in the North Carolina General Assembly, a super
majority in the Senate, a simple majority actually one vote
shy of the supermajority in the North Carolina House, and
(09:06):
with that final sixty six to forty eight vote on
Wednesday afternoon, these new maps are now in effect, and
a candidate filing for the twenty twenty six midterm elections
that will likely give Republicans an additional congressional representative from
North Carolina will begin in early December. As it stands
(09:27):
right now, North Carolina's current maps currently elect ten Republicans
and four Democrats. Under this new map, that number would
likely be eleven Republicans and three Democrats. As I mentioned
that this map cannot be vetoed or stopped by Governor
Josh Stein. Immediately after the vote in the North Carolina
(09:49):
House on Wednesday, the governor released a lengthy video to
social media talking about the maps, demanding that the General
Assembly get back to work on other pet projects that
the governor says are essential for the state moving forward.
We'll get into those details coming up here in just
a couple of minutes. It's five twenty Welcome back to
(10:13):
the Carolina Journal, News Our News Talk eleven ten ninety
nine three WBTA. Busy week in Raleigh as the North
Carolina General Assembly did exactly what they indicated last week
took up redistricting. After successful votes in the Senate on
Tuesday the House on Wednesday, a new congressional map is
officially in effect across North Carolina. The counties of moving between.
(10:36):
Some counties moving between districts one and three to give
Republicans an additional advantage in the upcoming midterm elections. Wilson, Wayne, Green,
and Lenore Counties are moved from District three District one
into District three. Craven, Beaufort, Pamlico, Carteret, Hyde, and Dare
Counties are moved from District three into District one. This
(10:58):
is a very partisan issue on folding in the General Assembly,
and the governor has no ability to veto or block
new maps from being drawn in North Carolina. Governor Democrat
Governor Josh Stein released a video on his social media
accounts yesterday afternoon after the final approval of these maps.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
North Killineans have voted under different congressional maps and five
out of the last six elections, and today the General
Assembly is abusing its power to pass yet another congressional
map for the twenty twenty six mid terms. Why to
try to hand President Trump another Republican seat in the
(11:38):
House of Representatives. Under North Carolina's constitution, the governor does
not have the power to veto redistricting maps. If I
did have that power, I assure you I would veto
this map. True leadership is knowing when and whether to
use your power. Republican legislative leaders are abusing their power
(11:58):
to take away yours. They're afraid that they will lose
in the midterms and afraid to say no to the President,
so they've turned their backs on you to silence your
vote in the twenty twenty sixth election. It's outrageous when
a candidate or a party loses an election. You're supposed
to work like hell to connect better with voters so
(12:19):
that you can win the next time. You do, not
rig the rules of the game to guarantee your victory.
The voters be damned. America is a representative democracy where
people choose who represents them, not the other way around.
The Republican General Assembly is damaging this core principle. Understand
(12:40):
that in the last election, slightly more than half of
the state voted for Republican candidate for Congress. Yet instead
of having half the seats, the Republicans want to seize
seventy nine percent of them. That's four out of five seats.
This is a general Assembly that refuses to pass a budget.
North Colin's one of only two states in the entire
(13:02):
country that doesn't have a budget. But we're the only
state where both legislative chambers are controlled by the same
political party. Teachers, law enforcement, and other public servants are
waiting on much deserved pay increases the General Assembly refuses
to provide them. Medicaid recipients and providers are feeling the
pain of the legislature's forced cuts because they've refused to
(13:27):
fully fund Medicaid, and now the General Assembly is failing
you by taking away your power to choose who represents
you in Congress. It's disgraceful and its pastime. Republican legislators
got their priorities straight. I am ready to sign a
budget that values our teachers helps law enforcement, keep us safe,
(13:48):
protects health care access for the most vulnerable, and puts
North Carolina on a path of opportunity for every person.
And I will never stop fighting for you because I
know I work for you. You, the people of North Carolina,
not a political party, not the president.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
You.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Those are the comments from Democrat Governor Josh Stein as
he released that video in the immediate aftermath of lawmakers
approving new congressional maps in the General Assembly this week.
A couple of comments from the governor that I think
are rather interesting following some similar threads that we heard
this week in the General Assembly, whether it was during
the public comment period or during debate in both the
(14:31):
House and Senate the various committees that this legislation went through,
that North Carolina should have a fifty to fifty congressional map.
It's an interesting question and an interesting point. We'll talk
to doctor Andy Jackson of the John Locke Foundation coming
up in a little bit about this notion. It is
important to note that unlike electing the governor, the president,
or other statewide elected offices, members of Congress are elected
(14:55):
via their district and those districts, of course have a
variety of things that need to be set up for
them to be legal congressional districts. One of the big
ones is that they have to have relatively equal population.
That is why you have district maps. The Typically in
large urban areas, whether you're talking about Mecklenburg Charlotte, whether
you're talking about Raleigh, Wake County, or some of our
(15:17):
other larger municipalities, you'll see much smaller congressional districts compared
to portions of the eastern or western half of the state,
where there is far less population. It is all due
to the fact that our fourteen members of Congress, for
the most part, have pretty equal number of constituents and
citizens that they represent. The governor also talked about the
(15:39):
state not having a full budget, and while that is
true North Carolina unlike other states, unlike the federal government
in Washington, DC, as we sit here day twenty three
of the federal government shut down, the current last fiscal
year budget does remain in effect in North Carolina. A
new mini budget was proposed by the General Assent this week.
(16:00):
It did pass both the House and Senate and does
currently sit on Democrat Governor Josh Stein's desk for a
signature with the vast majority of that mini budget dealing
with additional recovery and relief efforts out inn in the
western half of North Carolina as it relates to Hurricane Helene,
giving a local businesses as well as a small towns
(16:22):
and governments some more flexibility and more breathing room as
it relates to money that they have even have either
borrowed from the State of North Carolina or short term
loans that they have received to complete the immense amount
of construction work that has of course been required to
get some of those areas in the western half of
our state rebuilt and operational. The governor also highlighting that
(16:46):
he does not have the authority to go forward and
veto or block these maps. Well back in the mid
and early nineteen nineties, Democrats, who had controlled the North
Carolina General Assembly for the better part of ninety years
at that point, decided that they were going to introduce
the veto the State of North Carolina did not have
(17:06):
the governor, i should say, did not have the ability
to veto legislation. Prior to the nineteen nineties, Democrats, including
former Democrat Governor Roy Cooper, who was a Senator at
the time introduced the veto giving the state's governor the
ability to do that. However, they explicitly did not give
the governor the opportunity to veto congressional maps or any
(17:30):
other maps that come out of the North Carolina General Assembly.
That is the reason why Governor Stein does not have
the ability to do that. With everything that we have
watched this week, again those maps are now in effect.
We'll talk and get some additional information with doctor Andy
Jackson from the John Locke Foundation, coming up questions about
(17:51):
potential litigation against these maps and how this process will
continue to play out over the next six weeks or
so as we get into Canada filing for maps or
for seats that will that are now affected by these
new Republican controlled congressional maps. We'll get into those details.
Coming up here in just a couple of minutes. It's
(18:18):
five thirty six. Welcome back to the Carolina Journal News Hour,
Newstock eleven, ten ninety nine three WBT. We'll chat with
Doc Brandy Jackson from the John Locke Foundation coming up
here in just a couple of minutes. However, we do
have some news this morning out of the US Attorney's
Office for Western North Carolina. Russ Ferguson has formally indicted
to Carlos Brown Junior, that is, the man who is
(18:41):
accused of killing Arena Zaruskaan the Charlotte Light railback. On
August the twenty second, a grand jury has come back
with charges count one violence against a railroad carrier and
mass transportation system resulting in depth. It reads as followed,
to Carlos Brown Junior did knowingly and without lawful authority
(19:03):
and permission, commit an act including the use of a
dangerous weapon as defined in eighteen USC. Nineteen ninety two
D two, with the intent to cause death and serious
bodily injury to any person, and the act resulted in
the death of a person who was on a terminal structure, track,
and facility used in the operation of, or in support
(19:25):
of the operation of a railroad carrier and mass transportation
vehicle under circumstances in which the railroad, on track, equipment,
and mass transportation vehicle was carrying one or more passengers
and employees at the time of the offense, and any
of the conduct required for this offense was engaged in
on or against affecting a mass transportation provider and railroad
(19:50):
carrier engaged in interstate and foreign commerce in this case
talking about the Charlotte area transportation system. There are some
other charge are the council within this grand jury indictment. However,
it is important to note that this violence against a
railroad carrier and mass transportation system resulting in death could
(20:11):
let this come forth as something that the federal government
seeks the death penalty in this case. We will, of course,
and as we have in the months past, we'll have
continued coverage of the death of Arena Zaruska and the
charges and the legal proceedings that will follow against a
Carlos Brown Junior. We'll keep you up to date with
all the details over on our website Carolina Journal dot
(20:33):
com and right here on the Carolina Journal News Hour.
The political topic of the week here in North Carolina
politics has been redistricting. Maps are now said and done
to fully moving through the North Carolina House and Senate.
To get details on where everything stands right now in
the latest nobody better than doctor Andy Jackson from the
John Locke Foundation, He joins us this morning on the
(20:54):
Carolina Journal News Hour. Andy, a busy week in Raleigh.
It looks like in terms of additional work to be done.
Redistricting is now complete here, at least for North Carolina's
congressional districts.
Speaker 6 (21:05):
Yeah, they got it done yesterday, and as we expected,
it was a pretty quick process. We're only looking at
tweaking two districts. They shifted some counties between the second
and the third district and essentially kind of split the difference.
Whereas before the first district was very competitive and the
(21:27):
third district was pretty solidly Republican. Now we have two
lean Republican districts, So unless we have kind of a
tidal way of election, we could expect Republicans to win
in both of those Andy.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
There have been a couple of discussions and points about this. Obviously,
this whole discussion is inherently very political. You've got a
Republican led General Assembly that is doing this yere in
North Carolina. As I think folks can imagine Democrats not
happy with the redraw of this map. Based on the
state law Indian, based on the state constitution, Is this
(21:59):
something that Republicans, because they are in the majority, have
the authority to do in Raleigh.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Yes, they do. Now, the North Carolina Constitution says that
General Assembly districts, once drawn, cannot be redrawn until the
next census. So unless you have a court order saying, hey,
you've got to do it because there was some violation
of the state or federal constitutions, that's what you get.
But there's no such thing for congressional districts. So in theory,
(22:28):
the General Assembly could just redraw them after each election,
you know, they get a new set of data. Oh,
let's tweak the districts a little bit. Maybe we could
you know, shore up an incumbent or you know, let
with it this time, kind of pick up another district.
And so, yeah, we we have that process in place here,
and I don't expect that we'll have another round of
(22:50):
redistricting after twenty twenty six, just because at some point
there's only so much you can squeeze out. I mean,
you theoretically could have a twelve to two map. I mean,
that is doable. I've kind of played with maps and
I know you can do it. But by doing that,
Republicans would really be spreading themselves then, which is by
(23:13):
the way, what Democrats did in their general Assembly districts
before the twenty ten election, and that came back and
blew up in their face.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
So as we watch this process as it continues to unfold.
The maps are now officially in law here in North Carolina.
Candidate filing for these elections Andy will open up in
the early and middle parts of December. However, one of
the things that you've been writing about over at the
John Locke Foundation, We've had some quotes over at Carolina
Journal dot com is that litigation is likely with these maps.
(23:43):
Democrats taking an interesting stand in Raleigh on this, saying,
you know, the state has spent twenty two some odd
million dollars in litigation costs since twenty ten every time
maps are redrawn. Do you suspect that there will be
some litigation with these redraws of the first and third
congressional districts.
Speaker 6 (24:01):
That will definitely be litigation. I mean, there are always
is litigation. North Carolina has been kind of a haven
for lawyers in order if they want to make a
few bucks suing the state. I don't expect that it'll
get too far. We had we had pretty similar lawsuit
in the same part of the state over state senate
(24:23):
districts recently, I mean just this year, and that lawsuit
got tossed. The judge said that they couldn't prove that
these were a racial jerrymanders. Political jerrymanders have already been
kind of taken off the shelf by both the US
and North Carolina Supreme Courts, and since we have, we're
(24:43):
kind of backtracking in North Carolina on the racial gerrymander
in front, as long as the state isn't trying to
actually disenfranchise black voters, but they're just trying to get
a political advantage for their side. You know, if that's
the goal, then it's been increasingly difficult for plaintiff to
prove a racial jerry mandarin claim, and I don't expect
they'll be able to succeed here.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Well, let me ask you about this race question. That
was a major talking point not only for Democrat members
of the North Carolina House and Senate, but for anybody
that listened to the public comment that's taken place this week.
Pretty Much every individual speaking publicly on this andy called
these maps either racist or Senator Ralph Heist, the individual
who drew them in the Senate him by himself, he
(25:26):
is a racist for drawing these maps. Yet we've heard
from individuals like Senator Heiss Or Brendan Jones over in
the House that no racial data was used in drawing
these maps. Does that maybe bolster the argument from a
legal perspective here for Republicans that they didn't use any
of that race based data and redrawing these two districts.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
I mean, the judge in that other case on the
State Senate actually pointed out that they didn't use racial data,
and that was a point in the favor of the
General Assembly. On that the district went roughly from forty
one percent black to I think thirty three maybe thirty
four percent black, So there was a decrease to number
(26:08):
of black voters, but proportionally less than the movement on
the political front. And if the change in the racial
composition is incidental to pursuing a change in the political
composition of a district, the courts, and we had a
case in South Carolina on this a year or two ago,
the courts have upheld that, so I expected we're going
(26:30):
to see the same thing here. Planoffs will aast for
a preliminary injunction. They probably won't get it. It kind
of depends on which judge they get. And then we're
going to go ahead and have this election in twenty
twenty six, no matter what happens with the regular court case,
and then they'll decide on the merits later on.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
That preliminary injunction could be interesting here, as I mentioned Andy,
the candidate filing for this, even though the election is
in November of next year, if there's multiple candidates running
for the same party, there is a primary and early
that's pretty relatively soon right around the corner. So the
candidate filing open soon. Do you see any likelihood that
a pulminary injunction gets issued in the next It's got
(27:09):
to be what probably six weeks or so before candidates
will be determining what districts they run for.
Speaker 6 (27:15):
I think it's unlikely. And once again I'll point out
that that lawsuit over the state Senate districts, they saw
a preliminary injunction. They didn't get a preliminary injunction. In
order to get a preliminary injunction you have to One
of the things you have to do is show that
you are likely to succeed on the merit. So you
present out this first set of evidence, you know, XYZ,
(27:35):
So we feel pretty strongly about this. And you know,
obviously the defendants will say, no, I don't think they'll prevail,
But they didn't get the preliminary injunction for that State
Senate lawsuit, and I think we have a very similar
set of circumstances here. You know, same part of the state,
same basic racial data compositions, going on, same pattern on
(27:56):
what we call the so called jingles test to demonstrate
whether or not this is something that is worth considering
as a racial gerrymander. And on all of these they
seem the point in the same direction. So they're probably
not going to get that pulmonary injunction. And then you know,
the plaintiffs and us, the Democrats are going to have
to hope they can come up with a new set
(28:17):
of arguments, a new set of statistics, a better group
of experts when they get to the merit phase of
the trial.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
We will continue the conversation with doctor Andy Jackson from
the John Locke Foundation coming up after this. You're listening
to the Carolina Journal News Hour. It's five point fifty one.
Good morning again. Welcome back to the Carolina Journal News Hour,
Newstock eleven, ten ninety nine to three WBT continuing our
(28:46):
conversation this morning with doctor Andy Jackson from the John
Locke Foundation on redistricting that took place this week in
the North Carolina General Assembly. For those that followed the
General Assembly closely, they are familiar with the process that
legislation goes through Andy. It's either introduced in the House
or Senate, goes over to the other chamber, and then
goes to the governor's desk for signature. These congressional maps
(29:08):
are a little bit different. Even though there is a
bill number associated with them, the governor actually has no
play in that at all.
Speaker 6 (29:14):
What gives on that, Well, yeah, this is a relic
of the nineteen nineties when they gave the governor the veto.
The General Assembly at that time was controlled by Democrats,
and they had experience and this was when Jim Hunt
his second time around. The Democrats had experience with a
Republican governor. So they knew that, well, maybe there's going
(29:36):
to be a Republican governor sometime and if we draw
maps to benefit us, the governor might veto them. And
so they never expected that Republicans would actually take over
the General Assembly, and so they made sure that the
governor could not veto redistricting legislation, and now this has
really come back to kind of bite them because now
(29:58):
they're in a situation where you have Democratic governor who
cannot veto redistricting that the Republican legislature has passed.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
One of the things that was also a prominent discussion
this week was Andy, we need fair maps, we need
equal maps. We have fourteen congressional districts in North Carolina.
That is a pretty easy number to divide in half.
Seven Republicans seven Democrats. Can you walk me through why
something like that is not wholly practical here in North Carolina?
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Or maybe it is.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
What exactly is a basis for some of these seven
to seven claims?
Speaker 6 (30:32):
Well, with modern technology and data, you can draw almost anything.
I mean, if I really set my mind to it,
I could probably draw a ten to four democratic map.
It would take a lot of work, but you could
do it.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Now.
Speaker 6 (30:44):
Should I do it? No? Now, there has been work,
and this is the result of experts coming out in
some of these other lawsuits that we've had in the past,
and that data has shown if you use politically neutral critera,
you don't care about the politics involved, you don't consider
election results. You don't consider voter registration. You just consider
(31:04):
head counts. You try to keep counties whole, You try
to keep districts reasonably compact. For example, you know, Charlotte's
big enough city, it should have its own congressional district.
Great counties big enough that it should have a whole
congressional district inside of it. As long as you stick
to traditional criteria, don't bother with politics or political results.
(31:28):
In North Carolina, you normally get either an eight six
or a nine to five Republican map. There's some variation there.
A seven seven map is just as much an artificial
creation as a ten to four or an eleven three map.
That is not the way. That is not the political
(31:48):
geography of North Carolina. First of all, North Carolina is
basically a fifty two to forty eight Republican state that's
worth probably at least one additional Republican district. And the
patterns with Democrats tending to be more concentrated in some
of these urban enclaves probably is what pushes it up
to a nine to five. So that's that's kind of
(32:09):
the natural number, not really a seven to seven.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I'm glad you bring up some of that discussion over
urban areas, because that is an important part of it.
And if you look at a map of all one
hundred counties from the twenty twenty four presidential election, you'll
see that over seventy percent of the counties overall voted
to Trump over Harris. That is a lot of in
part due to the fact that many more rural areas
in North Carolina tend to be a little bit stronger
(32:34):
Republican strongholds versus where you look at these urban cores,
as you mentioned Charlotte, the Raleigh area over in other
parts of the state tend to have these more compact
areas of Democrat voters. Kind of makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
It does now anyway, it doesn't necessarily have to be
the way you know right now. The way it works
advantages Republicans because the rural areas are by and large Republican.
Those are areas are heavily democratic, and Republicans tend to
have an advantage in the suburbs as well. It doesn't
always have to be that way. I know, up in Canada,
(33:09):
for example, the Liberals tend to dominate the suburbs. So
if Democrats can successfully win in suburban areas or these
outlying counties like Johnston County that surround Raleigh, for example,
or Union County near Charlotte. If they can succeed in
appealing to those voters, the political geography could shift and
(33:30):
then you could see you nine to five democratic maps,
for example, that are drawn politically neutral.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
It's a lot of great information and insight this morning.
We appreciate the details and the time from doctor Andy
Jackson from the John Locke Foundation. You can recontinued coverage
of redistricting over on our website this morning, Carolina Journal
dot com. And yes, that continued coverage does and is
this morning over on our website Carolina Journal dot com.
You can watch and read some of the reaction from lawmakers,
(33:59):
Republicans and Democrats. Governor Josh Stein releasing a video on
his social media account yesterday saying that Republican leaders in
the North Carolina General Assembly have failed the people of
North Carolina, demanding that the legislature start working on other priorities,
including a passing a budget. We did learn some interesting
(34:20):
information yesterday from House Speaker Destin Hall that the House
will likely not have any additional votes for the remainder
of this calendar year. We'll keep an eye on all
those details over on our website, Carolina Journal dot com.
That's going to do it For a Thursday edition of
the Carolina Journal News Hour WBT News is next, followed
(34:40):
by Good Morning BT. We're back with you tomorrow morning,
five to six right here on News Talk eleven, ten
and ninety nine to three WBT
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