Breaking Down Barriers: The Role of Parole Officers

Brent sits down with Trishelle to talk about her time in the justice system—starting as a parole officer and now working at a law firm that actually cares about people. They get into the mess of it all: no proper training, heaps of red tape, political stuff getting in the way, and how hard it is for both staff and offenders. Trishelle opens up about burnout, trauma, and the weird stuff parole officers have to deal with.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Approache production.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
For the record. I'm done trying to make y'all comfortable
for the record. You ain't trying to grow downer stuff
for your for the record, laugh on me going all
the way way for the record. Ain't trying to link,
No trying to wait stop for the.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Record for the record, for the for the record, for
the red for the record.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Record for the record. I'm don't trying to make y'all comfortable.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Right.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Welcome to season seventeen of The Clink. We are slowly
starting to wind up this season and it has been phenomenal.
Every get today has been awesome, and I want to
take a minute and say thank you very much to
each of you what a great season it's been, and
to everybody that's just started listening. Remember we have over
two hundred and eighteen guests, seventeen seasons and well over

(01:21):
five million downloads. Now go back and start listening to
all the wonderful guests from season one right through to seventeen.
Want a big shout out to Jay and the team
and also the Sideways Surf who always has our back.
And remember, guys, any Clink Ink apparel you can get
at Sideways Surf in any stores or online without further

(01:42):
adod this is going to be a little bit different
to what we've done in the last couple of seasons.
And why is because I have so much respect for
this lady in the short time that I've spoken with her.
Her openness to what we I think truly should know
as opposed to what we assume to know is massive.

(02:03):
Her information and knowledge and experience I feel can help
many today and that is why I have asked her
to become a guest on the Clink. Her name is Trischelle,
and Trischelle, welcome to the Clink. Thank you so much
for being with us today. I know that this has
been one of those shall we say should I should
I maybe type of moments, But for us to be

(02:27):
here today, I know is a big step. Thank you,
and the informative conversation that I truly believe we can
have will help so many people out there understand what
truly the system is about. When I say the system,
the system with parole, the system with jail justice, and
also to what it's like for a woman to work

(02:48):
and be dictated to and dominated by males also within
that industry that should never have had to go through
some of the things that you ladies have had to experience. Trichelle,
Welcome to the clink.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah, something that I like I said in the beginning,
it wasn't easy for you to feel that you wanted
to open up about because of maybe backlash or repercussions.
And I only just had not long ago an experience
up in Townsville where myself and Jeremy Donovan went up
there and did a lot of work in community with

(03:22):
troubled youth. We found that people within the working space
of helping people that wanted to open up and speak
openly in reference to how things were happening up there
from a justice point of view, from an ethical point
of view, were basically muzzled. They were told that to

(03:42):
speak out you would lose your job, you would have problems.
This is something that you had to go through and
did experience. You're no longer in that space, but thankfully
someone like you to be able to be as an
informative as you possibly can be about what it's like
to work in this space that we're going to talk about,

(04:05):
I think will have so much value. So honestly, from
me to you, thank you for being one brave enough
to have that conversation too. Welcome.

Speaker 4 (04:14):
Yeah, thank you. Like I said to you when we
chat it before, I started with parole and with collective
services with the goal of helping people. That's all I
wanted to do. But obviously reality was a little bit
different to that. But that's what we get into it.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
For Helping people is something that we're passionate about. And
the beautiful thing is most of us that getting to
genuinely want to help people have a background story. We
do have a passion because we've experienced so much in
our lives that are relative to what we're working with.
I either clink myself my own background and story and journey.

(04:51):
You're no different. You had a background story which we
will talk about now because I feel that our listeners
need to know who you are and why you got
led into that space to be able to have this
conversation and lived experience. Once again, Yes, I go on
about it all the time because I'm so passionate about

(05:11):
the fact of what it brings to the table and
how much value it has. Four people who don't have
that lived experience, Could you please take us back for
our listeners and give us a bit of background information
about where it will begin for you. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (05:27):
So I grew up in the country, had a really
good upbringing, nothing really special to note. I went to
high school. I actually fell pregnant seventeen, had my first
child accidentally, and smart en up. I was good at school,
but I wasn't loving school. And then I kind of thought, well,
what can I do to put a roof over his head?

(05:47):
What can I do as a young single mum, So
I thought as a female, I got to go to UNI.
I got to do it. So I went to UNI.
I worked in bars, worked everywhere at UNI, graduated UNI
with a criminology and criminal psychology degree, and then realize
straight out of UNI that gives you nothing so so
corrective services. I looked around. I'm like, what jobs can

(06:09):
I use with the chronology? Parole offs came up. I
was early twenties. I was like, hey, was great, didn't
know what it was. I'm like, oh, yeah, people are
getting out of prison. Here's my chance to help people.
Signed up to Coreactive Services and yeah, thought it was
going to be just helping people, which didn't quite realize
what working for the government is all about, and was

(06:31):
thrown in the thick of it pretty fast.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Firstly, I want to give credit to you one being
a young mum, a single mum, and having the courage
to go back and you know, commit to study. I
mean that's huge. Yeah, it's hard enough raising, you know,
a child on your own, littlelone actually studying because what
was that four years of your life? Three years?

Speaker 4 (06:51):
Yeah, and he was born in the December and I
hadn't finished year twelve yet. And I went back to
like an adult schooling which was nighttime with him in
a capsule next to me, to try and finish my
year twelve, finish a year twelve with him as a baby.
And yeah, I went straight to UNI.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
And how did you find that each day happening to
get up and you know, like obviously be mum, but
also study to better the future for the both of you. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
I was lucky that I had a phenomenal parents. I
had a great support team. Another reason going into parole
is that not everyone's awarded that opportunity. So having that,
I wanted to use my good to be that support
for somebody else that they don't have. So I was
lucky that my mum would have and my dad would
have my young child a lot so I could study,

(07:38):
so I could work well studying, So a lot of
thanks to my parents.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
So you go through the study period, you obviously successfully
got through it well done. So you're no silly person.
You're obviously quite intelligent. Because I wouldn't assume that well,
I hate, I'd say it all the time. I don't
like to assume, but it just comes out. But it
would be tough. It would be something that you'd be
truly tested for. Especially you know, like you said, you
didn't really finish year twelve without any troubles. You've fallen pregnant,

(08:07):
You've you know, you've got this beautiful young son, like
a world that's going to completely be turned upside down
to what you probably ever thought it would be at
that age. Yeah, and you still need us to succeed.

Speaker 4 (08:19):
Yeah. I didn't finish it like other people, as in
I think it took me maybe four year degree probably
six years to do. So I did part time, then
I went back full time for a semester. I'm like, not,
can't do this anymore, and then didn't do it a semester.
So it wasn't easy, that's for sure. Like obviously I
was still having to work to put food on the table,

(08:40):
studying have a young child, so I didn't do it
as quick as other people, but I did it. I
finished it eventually, and yeah, I wanted to get out
into the big bad working.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
World, big bad working world or tea. What you stepped
into a big bad place, that's for sure. How was that? Like?
What made you? I know you said wanting to help people?
And I get that, But why that direct? Why would
you want to?

Speaker 4 (09:07):
Legal studies actually started my degree with the law degree,
dropped it halfway through, which I've now gone on to
do later on. But I loved the legal side of things,
love the justice side of things, but also loved helping people.
So I thought, oh, this is perfect, Like I get
to work with in the criminal aspect in the justice system,
and yeah, I get to help people. It's a win

(09:29):
win sort of thing. So that's pretty much how I
got into it. But yeah, it turned up my first
day obviously and thrown in the deepen straight up.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
So you say thrown in the deepend for anybody out
that doesn't understand, I mean for me, I get the picture,
and so will many that have been involved in the system.
What the depend can be or what it actually is
for you. What is the depend you know, how does
one come into the justice system or the corrective service system.

Speaker 4 (09:57):
I think we were talking about the funny thing with
parole officers and that in Queensland we're the only state
that you have to have a university degree, so most
of us come straight out of UNI. Most of us
haven't had life experience. They're young, twenty one twenty two
year olds, grew up pretty good family, go into this world.
When I started back, oh well over ten years ago,

(10:19):
there was no training. So what you see with correctional
officers with screws, that sort of thing, they get training,
they get there. We get thrown in. Here's fifty criminals
to say to look after, see you later. That's it.
There is no training. We get sent to what we
call pdp P, which is our training. It's like a
I think it's two or four week training for parole

(10:41):
of users when there's a spot available. So I did
my training to become a parole officer about eighteen months
after I was a parole officer on the job eighteen
Because so what I mean deepened. They do not training.
They just throw us young people in and say Wow, Yeah,
because the turnover is so massive because no one lasts.

(11:02):
They're desperate for people. You just got a sinkle swim
take these criminals, do your best with them. So that's
pretty much how we started.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
When you use the word criminal, and I'm not being disrespectful,
but I'd like to if we can try and use
the inmates because I find that a little bit offensive,
not from you, but just.

Speaker 4 (11:20):
So we call them in parole offenders. That's what we are, yeah,
to us in community correction inmates someone in prison. So
when they come out, I struggle with what word to
use it. And obviously now I'm on the other side,
I'm on the private side. We call them clients. So yeah,
so I struggle to be like, what do we call them?
What's a And I'm very big on that. What's the

(11:41):
most respectful thing to call somebody that's not in custody
right now? They're not a client? They're like, so, yeah,
I'm open to everything.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
Let's run an offender word I'd rather be a criminal.
Criminal is a dirty word.

Speaker 4 (11:57):
I would love to use offender because that's what we
watch the offender.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Let's settle for that. We're going to with that and
I'm sure a lot of people will be a lot
happy here, and I want to continue the more are you?
I think, fuck off?

Speaker 5 (12:20):
So you worked with defenders in the justice system as
a parole of and inmates who are in custody obviously,
and how would one know and like here we gave
like just see you going our conversation in our language.
You know, if you were to, I guess, approach an
inmate or within you know, custody inmates and constantly.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Called them a criminal refer to of course of course.
But this is more for that person that hasn't had
that education and you know, you're on the job, like
you've said, you're not educated as in that in that space,
How to act react? What is triggering for those people?
How do then you hold yourself and language wise? And

(13:04):
I'm not going to be rude or anything, but you're
a very attractive lady. You're not sort of unattractive. So
I mean for an inmate, they are naturally going to
start to be some good star struck looking Wow. Next minute,
Oh she's calling me a criminal? You know, who does
she think she is? Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah, we learned words, so there's a few words obviously
people would know that I've been in custody and that
there's words you do not say. And as someone that's
never been around that world, we're educated by a book,
which means nothing when you go into the real world.
I've got an example of a word. So we have
to do this whole motivational speaking motivational, like let's try

(13:42):
and get these offenders to think positive or whatever. And
she came out of there going, he just threatened to
kill me. We're like, what did you say to him?
She goes, I've been all motivational. I called him champ.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Ah. She goes boss Champ and pow.

Speaker 4 (13:57):
She goes, I said, you're doing a great job, Champ,
and he snapped it up. And I'm like, so we
learned by those things. You say a word, you see
their face drop, you see the daggers come, and we're like,
what's that word actually mean? Then you go using that
one again. So we learnt on the job like we
weren't around it. We actually had spreadsheets in the Office

(14:18):
of Prisoner Terms. We have an Excel spreadsheet and there's
just millions and some of them are hilarious. But yeah,
we'd go and go, what's this word and we like
go to it and yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Wow, I'm not sitting here disrespectfully laughing, but this is
the sensitivity around working in that space. And I think
it's actually good that we talk about this because there's
so much involved for someone like yourself who is just
trying to do good. You're not there to harm anyone.
You're there to try and give somebody, I guess the

(14:49):
support that's required. And don't get me wrong, there are
some putrid parole officers out there that are just fucking dogs.
I'm not going to hold back from it. I've experienced it,
and so as many out there. It's rare that we
get a genuinely good passionate, you know, a person wanting
to make difference or see that person parole offender succeed

(15:12):
come out with the right sort of structure and the
right sort of support networks. Because you're a statistic yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:19):
Government bases it on statistics.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, well I had six years and I had a
three year parole period where I was under federal offense
because of an importation charge. So for me, I was
destined to fail, even down to the last few months,
you know, like trying to get I lived on a
border town or the Queensland and New South Wales trying
to get work because there was no work in the
small community that I was living in. But my life

(15:41):
was across the border. But because I've been arrested in
New South Wales and served my time there, they didn't
want to allow me to cross the border even though
I lived literally a stone nice.

Speaker 4 (15:49):
With other states. That's what people don't realize. We don't
talk to other and obviously the travel thing with parole,
you've got to do a travel application, that sort of thing.
I always say them, just go we don't talk to
the other state. We don't play nice. So I don't know. Yeah,
that border is almost like a country border, fair parole
or for productive services everything.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, it is, and it's extremely frustrating because it's simple.
You've got to learn to play the game, and that's
what it is. It is a game of chess. One
wrong move or you know, as we've talked about on
the phone briefly, which I'm looking forward to getting into
the Chess Master. If I can put it that way,
I either parole officer generally can create moves that aren't

(16:33):
ethical to the wrong moves, but must be accepted and
definitely make the parole extremely vulnerable in a lot of ways.
Those sorts of things I personally feel are truly unacceptable
because in society, as an everyday human, you can't do that.
It is Classter's corruption his class to fraud, straight up,

(16:57):
plain and simple, fucking dishonest, and you're playing with the
lives of a human and their fairs. Look, I'm not
sitting here trying to make it all pretty and sweet.
You do the crime, you do the time. I'm all
for that, you know what I mean. Like, if I've
done something wrong and I'll get caught, I put my
hand out. I've only ever played, out of fourteen years jail,

(17:18):
I've only ever played not guilty twice, do you know
what I mean? Like any other time, I've just copped
it because that I knew what I did, I was
guilty of it. And that's the whack. I mean. Obviously,
life definitely not these days. It's well beyond me other
than a circumstantial situation that I've been battling. But yeah,
I mean, looking in the big scheme of things, it's

(17:40):
something that has so much weight on the success of
that paroleague coming out and being able to make a
life for themselves. You guys. When I say you guys,
please don't think of pointing the thing at you. I'm
speaking in general as we are inmates. Except for a few,
it's just not okay. And you've experienced that first hand.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
Yeah, the big thing. And you're saying that there's some
awful parole officers, US good ones, usd ones that said
no to management a few times, or we stuck to
what we believed in. We're not there anymore because the
ones that will do as they're told, the ones that
will buy into the corruption, that will do everything, they'll
go up the ladder. Us that say not not doing it.

(18:24):
I don't agree with that. We move on very quickly.
We don't tolerate it. What you were saying about being
families and that there's a few instances, and I don't know. Look,
I haven't been at paroles since they retired me in
twenty twenty, so I know.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Well that's not that long ago.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
I know a lot of Harry fresh but with the
big one and a lot of us that have moved
on to bigger and better things. The one thing that
really really stung us was we would look after I
don't know. Let's say fifty offenders and back in the
day with mandatory suspensions or any parole suspension, so you
suspend their parole return to prison. Warrant goes out. You've

(19:03):
probably heard these stories where we pull him into the office. No, nah,
you're fine, you're not. There's no warrant for you. You
pull them into a room and you're told to do this.
You're like, we need to arrest them. They can't go
on the run. Bring them in. They sit there across you.
You've built this rapport with them, so you're their parole.
Obviously you're not the one that's agreed to the warrant.
You're not the one you have to sit across for
them and say yeap. We then call police, and police

(19:26):
come in the back door, knock on the door. You're
going to prison. Their wife's in the car. They're whatever, no, goodbye,
know nothing. They look at you, dead in the soul,
and then they get back out, say a month, two months,
three months later, and they're like, here go, Tochelle, You've
got to now supervise this person again and etonan to
have trusting you again. They're not going to have trusting you.
But management the government. They don't care. You're just that

(19:49):
you do as you're told. And then there's actually a
story about that. So we had an incident with immigration.
So with the immigration reel, as you do a certain
amount of prison time, this gentleman wasn't even that bad
of a don't even remember what it was. But he
got out of prison, reported to us everything was good.
In immigrations like we want him, he's got to be deported,

(20:11):
blah blah blah. He's driven in and he's work truck working,
parked in the loading zone. Come on in, here's all
Immigration grabs him, plane out of the country, his wife, kids,
everything at home, cars in the How is that humane?

Speaker 1 (20:26):
This is under those five oh one luwles? Is that
what we refer to? And we both know so many
people who have had to experience this. I've had so
many guests on here over the seasons that literally they've
made mistakes. But are they bad people? Know? Do they
deserve to it? And they've lived here since they were.

Speaker 4 (20:42):
Like yeah, but not just that, like fair enough, go
through that, do whatever you got to do. That's part
of the system. Don't make me set it up. Don't
make me be the one and then what you were
saying about your lose your job. If you push back
at all, if you ever said your life would be helped,
we would be made. Like I say to so many

(21:02):
people when they find out, oh you're a parola, so
I hate them, blah blah blah, I said, trust me,
I hate them more than you. That we were treated
way worse. And I know offenders are going to find
that hard to believe that they're treated worse. We are
treated way worse as female staff then we treat offenders.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
I want to just touch on that, and I think
it's very relative, especially to moving forward after this. There's
an experience that you had, which, if you're comfortable to
talk about just briefly, but the expectations that are expected
from you, the things that are unethical, the things that
actually really that we talk about when we're on parole

(21:43):
and we complain about that this happens and that happens,
and no one listens to but we know, as the
offender or the inmate that's been in the system a
long time, we see what the game is and what's
being played. When we talk about dishonesty and fraudulent acts
through to paperwork and breaching things like that you first heard,
have seen that, know all too well what it's about.

Speaker 4 (22:07):
Many there's so many to even discuss of.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
Let's touch on a few because I think it's so
important and relevant.

Speaker 4 (22:14):
So I think we're talking about mandatory suspension days. So
back in the day, if you gave a dirty urine,
a dirty drug test, straight to prison, don't cross go,
don't get your two hundred dollars automatic suspension. We are sitting,
so we're meant to sit on, say thirty fifty offenders.
We're short staffed. They don't care we sit on about
one hundred. We don't know where they are, so a

(22:34):
workload to get too big. Let's just do a random
drug test, clean out a case load and put them
back in. Where's the rehabilitation in that. That's just to
put them back in to make our life. And when
you're in that position where you are so stressed, we
work back sometimes till all hours of the night, but
we're not allowed to put it on our time sheet
because we can't look like we're struggling. But when you're

(22:55):
sitting on so many people, you can't make a difference.
You just need to cross your t's and dot your
eyes and hope something doesn't go wrong, because it's our
head on the chopping block. So obviously, if you're in
a parole office, say the Gold Coast, and Gold Coast
is a small place everybody, it's a small country town
that's big.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
So you've only got Southport of Burley, don't you.

Speaker 4 (23:16):
So we're done in regions. So in South Coast region
is Southport, Burley, Logan and Beanley. They are parole offices.
Southport is the biggest parole office in Queensland, followed by Logan,
follow Bake ipswitch there are you are only two options
pretty much and Southport you're here from. So many offenders
don't report to South Coast Region. We're the harshest region

(23:36):
there is. So we had an father and son that
were on parole together for And I think I've listened
to some of your guests previously and they say the
same thing that I believe you're old school bank robbers,
you're old steel crims. They are amazing. They're respectful to
me what you're saying about the game. They play the game, guest, ma'am, no, ma'am.
Three bags fullmen, that's all I want to hear. Get
out of my room. I don't care what you do

(23:57):
when you leave, Like, don't really care too much paperwork.
But they're so respectful. I'm respectful for them. It's that
mutual respect and then they do it so easy. So
they were those type of father and son that were
on parole for.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
So were they to offenders or were they just basically.

Speaker 4 (24:16):
Dad, the grandfather, the older when he was with us,
he was pushing eighty like out of prison. He's not
hurting anyone, let's be.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Honest, Like what just an old time knockabout kind of
guye or something that.

Speaker 4 (24:28):
Yeah, So anyway, we had them our manager at the time,
a male manager. One of their victims was a friend
of his from school. So we were told ride them
and make their life a living hell. Now, these two
older gentlemen, there was nothing to ride them for. They
were fantastic on parole. They weren't doing anything wrong. They're
not out using drugs. They're not about to hold up

(24:49):
a bank at eighty years of age, that's for sure.
So to be told to ride them, to have to
pull in every week an eighty year old to drug
test him just to annoy him, doesn't sit well with
me at all, but just because it was personal and
then just small things like that and just signing warrants.
Sign is warrant for us because we want to put

(25:10):
him back in because of X, Y and Z, like
something that's not even a risk related thing. And then
if you push back and say that's my name on
the warrant, I'm not putting my name on it, Well,
guess what you're now going into this case load, which
was like one someone didn't want. So you're punished for
not doing what they want pretty much.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
I know obviously the New South Wales system I spent
majority of my time in and they are harsh. I
know we touched on this the other day and you
were saying about the Queensland and New South Wales. There's
no sanctions in New South Wales. There's no thirty days,
sixty day. There's another that's shit. You breached, you breach.
So you know, hypothetically I had a three year parole period.

(25:49):
If I got through twelve months of it and slipped
up somewhere along the line, and let's just say it
was a dirty year. On say I was using drugs
or whatever, it's a breach. It is an instant mandatory
straight back in and you complete the two years that
were left on the three. So when you talk about
setting people up or people getting put in positions where

(26:10):
ethically they should not be due to the instructions of
senior workers in this space, that makes me fucking sick. Yeah,
because the amount of people that give breach and look,
like I said, for the listeners out there, and I
know there's a lot of people that sit on the
fence and I love you all, thank you very much
for tuning in because it is validated each time we

(26:31):
have a guest on their story and why, and this
is no different having Trichelle, and I think is such
an informative situation that we need to hear these stories.
And I don't generally pull people. I think I've only
ever had maybe one or two other guests from this
type of sort of background, just to give people that
education because so many people question things. It's like people

(26:54):
are questioning me, you know, with your matter. You know,
once it's done, you know, like you've spent X amount
of dollars, don't you know if you be there, you'll
be able to get Yeah, I'm getting shit, Queen quarter
mile llion dollars has gone in defending my case for
five years, like I A'm getting a fucking dollar, you
know what I mean. The best case scenario for me
or anybody else in that situation is a no bill,

(27:14):
not guilty, or no case to answer to. Simple worst
case is obviously jail and you lose it all anyway.
But the biggest thing is is the difference between the states.
And I've gotten not a doubt in the world that
your experience in this area would be warranted to say
that it would be no different in any other.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
State, probably not to be honest, like the only thing
I found, and obviously you've lived it different to what
I is. If we did have to communicate with New
Southlales corrections to the border like you said, is right
there to us, they're lazy, so we'd say, oh we
need this. Nah, like he's doing fine. We've see supervision,
so they end supervision early if they're doing good. So

(27:56):
if you're doing really well on parole, you've still got
a year on parole or six months like no, you're
doing good, your prole's over, you're free to go. In Queensland,
we have to tell them you're on parole to midnight
the end of your thing. We can even come around
at ten pm the night we drill them. The night
is the end of your parole, a day you sentence ends.
So obviously you've had a different experience to what and
I've only seen it from talking to them, but it

(28:18):
wouldn't be much different. Like it's all government justice departments.
We're all told to do what we're meant to do.
And if you say no, well.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
When you say, you told what you meant to them,
and we always go on about you know, and I
know people get on rant's about oh, you know, the
police need to hit a quota for money for booking
people and all this sort of shit and the government
needs to do this and this needs to happen. This
sounds like it's no different in that work environment.

Speaker 4 (28:46):
Yeah, if anything, it's different on the opposite side now,
as in we're not allowed to put them back in.
It turned it went from that mandatory suspension days where
thirty day sanction straight in no matter what, to prisons
a triple bunks. We can't get them back in. You
need to do your best, and then that leads too,
so we'll have someone that is at real And I've

(29:08):
heard you speak about it that is a real bad person,
like this person's going to kill someone again, and they
will say to our management, will say, this person is
threatening to kill this person. This person's off their faces,
they're doing this whatever, and they're like, yeah, sorry, triple bunk,
just manage it. You'll be fine, you'll be fine. And
then they go and we had one go and kill someone,

(29:30):
please shot him. And then my ass is dragged over
the line saying why didn't you do this? Why didn't
you do that? And it comes from higher above management
saying you can't, and where they're begging. We're like, this
person's going to kill someone. I know they will, And
even the magistrates they're like, nah, sorry, prisons are full.
We can't do anything with them.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
So you're saying at the moment and sorry, I just
wanted to be specific because this is interesting. Those sanctioned
days were very well. It was just common. You knew
that if you got done with the dirty you're doing
a thirty day or sixty or whatever it was. People
didn't mind doing it because it was just time to
dry out. Well, whether they dry it out or not,
but anyway, they drying out in there. I was going

(30:10):
to say, as we both know there's not much drying
out in there, but in saying that at the same time,
for that person really shouldn't be breached. That may have
a genuine explanation, but doesn't fall within the guidelines as such,
and gives you still that power to be breached. Back
then we'd be breached. Yeah, very hard, very hard to
walk it. Like you said, you walk in there, next

(30:32):
minute you're in the back room, you're in cuffs, they're
taking out. You're gone as it stands at the moment.
And I will vouch for that. You know. I had
to go back into custody on this matter two Thy
twenty two and I had never seen the R and
L or any Queensley in jail because of all my
time had been done in New South Wales. And I

(30:55):
was shocked. I was shocked at just the caliber of
I guess some of the criminals in there, because most
of it was devo breaches and the fact that Queensland
jails were one out cells that were forced to out,
so there was two mattresses in the cells. One had

(31:15):
to sleep with his head or feet basically at the
peace house, at the toilet or at the door. And
what option are you going to do if the screws
crack the door or walk in and step on your head.
That ain't real cool and vice versa, you know what
I mean. Like the bloke's got to get up in
the middle of the night and go to the toilet,
what do you do? Wake the bloke up? Stand over
the top of like, how is that even okay? And

(31:37):
yet now when you explain it that they're triple bunking
and this sort of stuff, I can see exactly what
you're talking about, Like I've seen it as a double
so to see you even think that those cells are
triple bunk is just the most unhygienic, unhumane way of
treating anybody or leaving.

Speaker 4 (31:57):
Breaching your prole Now I joke, you get a lollipop
in a hug, they don't put anyone back in anymore.
They just don't do it. It has to be an Obviously,
there'll be people that say time.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Unless there's a serious offense in your own custody. Not
But if you're just going to walk in a piece
in a cup and say, all right, you've had coke
last weekend, or you had a bit, or you've got
a value in your system.

Speaker 4 (32:16):
Or you've traveled to New South Wales without permission, you're
not going back in that's for sure. It has to
be a serious breach. Now, I think we were talking
about it that it's very media and politically based. So
what you were saying, there's a lot of breaches a
DVO and that in custody because that's what's big at
the moment. So is DV biger.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
No.

Speaker 4 (32:34):
Is there more DV offenders. No, it's just because that's
what the general public want people to think they're cracking
down on. So the prisons now got all these DV
offenders and I think you probably remember the days back
in those manastry suspensions when it was all about the
vlad laws.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
The biki the bikis.

Speaker 4 (32:50):
Absolutely, we put them in pink jumpsuits. We did the most.
How is that humane?

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Well, that was not just that they were forced to
be in segro like Look, don't get me wrong, when
did he use segro? But that was gang related, So
you played up. That's just what happened. But you didn't
go straight out of reception straight into a segre unless
you're no good or bomb protection or whatever. You went
into the main jail and if you acted accordingly. The
screws left you alone. You did your jail on that

(33:16):
was that. But if you played up, then the squad
had come in and you get your warnings. The next
month you'd be off to stg or whatever it is
up in here in Queensline or but it was something
that you did not want to be in. Yea, they
made it that that was exactly if you were related
to any gang affiliation or biking under the vlad Luws,
you were instantly humiliated and basically locked down time.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
Yeah, they were full of bikers the time. Now they're
full of DV offenders, and then it's what they want
to believe. So while there actually are these bad people,
and I think we touched on it like your child
sex offenders, any sex offenders that are running free because
nobody kicks about.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
It, can you just explain for our listeners that because
fuck may excuse my Italian, French, German and whatever else
you want to call that language. I'm absolutely gobsmacked at
that information because I've never heard anybody explain to me
why these putrid scum of the earth don't get the
sentences that Johnny gets for going down and getting all

(34:18):
scuffling in the pub, has a brawl, you know, which
is pretty common in Australia pub fight. Whatever, he might
hit a bloke with his fist and break his skin,
grievous bodily harm, that's a jailable offense straight up. Now,
he may have had history and all of a sudden
the judges right, I'm doing six months or twelve months right, Really,
the bloke might have just had a bad diet and
it might have been provoked. Whatever the case might bad.

(34:40):
I'm not trying to justify it once again, but I'm
being realistic. Yet you can have and as to someone
who is a sexually abused survivor and mate, I was
raped as a kid by several people. So I'm very
strong advocate for anybody who commits these offenses. When you
told me how it's seen and why I'm still processing it,

(35:01):
and that was not yesterday, David Boiler, was a few
days ago now. So for our listeners please in detail,
can you give this fact.

Speaker 4 (35:11):
So when we brought out in Queensland your caught or
to parole orders under the Penalties and Sentences Act. So
if you're sentenced in Queensland to under three years imprisonment
for anything, you get a parole release date, so you
get told or you can get quarter a parole straight
from court.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
So you say automatic parole, is that what you're referring.

Speaker 4 (35:29):
To automatic parole?

Speaker 1 (35:31):
So a two two years and under a new South
Wales is automatic parole and three.

Speaker 4 (35:35):
So anything three years and under you get automatic parole.
So there are two exceptions to that rule. So an
SVO serious violent offender cannot get caught or to parole.
So a serious violent offender is someone that's declared, so
it could be a drug traffick, it doesn't have to
be violence. Anyone that's declared. They have to spend eighty
percent of their in custody so they can't get caught

(35:59):
or a parole, which those type of people will always
get over three years anyway, so they'll get a parole eligibility.
The other one that's exempt is sex offenders, so you
cannot be sentenced to call to parole for a sexual offense.
What that means is that the justice system is limited
with what they can sentence them to. They either have
to sentence them to over three years in prisonment with

(36:21):
a parole eligibility date, which and these people that think
these are a victimist crime. I debate to differ you
CEM your child expectation MATERI. They're still a victim there,
but the justice system doesn't warrant that that's a three
year or over sentence or any child sex offense or whatever.
So the only options they have is to give them
a prison sentence for a short time and a full

(36:43):
release so you never get parole, so you don't get
that guy, no one's watching them when they come out,
or probation. So probation is the step down from parole.
It's nothing, it's not worth the paper they're written on.
You can't do anything with them, you can't breach them.
So sex offenders are getting nothing pretty much. They're getting
off scott free because under penalties and sentence you cannot
get called or to parole.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
There you have it, guys, there is a fact. And
I had no idea about this. I always have wondered why,
and I'm sure there's hundreds of people out there that
have had the same question. Why. How can they destroy
the life of any human being child, take their innocence,
and just completely destroy their futures, which it does a
lot of people can't live with it. A lot of

(37:27):
people take their lives. They enough addicts. Like we could
go on about it, and I don't want to touch
too much because I don't want to trigger anybody out there.
And please, guys, if you are struggling, do seek help
and reach out and look, you more than welcome to
DM myself or anybody else through my channels and we
will definitely listen and have a chat. But it's a

(37:47):
conversation that needs to be had because no one's got
the balls one to talk about it. So you're a female,
but this is something that has to be spoken of.
It needs to be said because how do we know
the facts and the truth if we don't have anybody
that's willing to actually tell us. Because this is all
undercover shit. This is the stuff no one wants anybody

(38:10):
to know.

Speaker 4 (38:10):
They won't. They'll say it's not because it's in the legislation.
It's there. It's like the Center Penalties and CENTERSAC says
you cannot sentence. But you'll see most magistrates these days
very wary to sentence anyone to long sentences of three years,
four years, ten years. They're not doing it. So for
your really serious child rate ones. Yes, they're going to

(38:32):
get a longer sentence than that, but even when the
child's the victim, proving that is so hard. So they're
getting these lighter sentences because they're getting them downgraded, they're
getting whatever. And I heard one of your guests too,
I think it was the police officer that said, I
love working with most offenders most and like I said,

(38:52):
your old school ones are great. Child sex offenders are
the only ones that will never admit to their crime.
They'll blame the victim they wanted it, or they'll they'll
minimize it all the time, all the time. And they're
the ones that are getting these probation orders where we're like,
please go see a counselor like yeah, and okay, we
can't do anything, mate. I don't know what's got to change, but.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
I think the hardest thing is too And as a survivor,
and I've worked in the space of assisting survivors over
the years where I can't disclose a lot of information,
but I can say where I would basically notate what
had taken place and then forward it to the right
channels through the people I was working with and further

(39:35):
down the track. Once some of those persons had gotten
into the court system, what was done to them to
make them look like absolute liars and just complete ubsolutely
full of shit. It was horrific. Like I get a defenseler,
don't get me wrong. We need barristers, QCs or cases
whatever you want to call them today. And not everybody

(39:58):
is guilty, like there are allegations and some people do
get accusers like DV you know, like males females. The
story is made up And I'm not going to get
down the rabbit hole because that's not what this podcast
is about. We don't sort of do that. But there's
lies generally around each matter. There's always someone that's not happy,
that's going to tell a porky pie somewhere along the
line to fuck someone up. But when you've got children,

(40:21):
innocent children that have shared a horrific con traumatic experience
and then have to be put into a court system
to only be made out to be a liar, and
I personally know people that have had to go through
this is just it's just disgusting, you know. And then
the perpetrators are able to just sit there with a
big smile on their face, rubbing their hands together. Licking

(40:43):
their lips thinking I'm out of you soon and I'm
off again. Like us offenders that have been involved in
organized chrime, serious crime, whatever you want to call it,
we cop the wrath of them all full hand, full hand.
And if you're caught out to be lying, or you're
caught out to be you know, dishonest in your situation

(41:04):
where you plead not guilty when you should plead guilty,
your sentence indication grows like you're you're going to get
a higher sentence if you plead not guilty to something,
as opposed to first putting your hand up with something.
So for example, I got done for importation. I copped
it on the chin, I put my hand up. I
was looking at ten years and I copped a six
year sentence. Now why because I didn't waste the courts time?

(41:24):
You get a twenty percent reduction, blah blah blah blah blah,
Not because of any other way. And there's no statements,
there's no co offend, there's nothing like that. Right, so
pure and simple just got me. That was it, controlled
delivery done. You don't see that across the board when
it comes to other styles of offending and you.

Speaker 4 (41:42):
Definitely don't see them ever pleading guilty. Ever, they're never
given up. And now, working on the defense side, what
you just said is exactly what a good defense lawyer
will say, is that here's the evidence, here's what we have.
You need to plead guilty by doing if you do X,
Y and Z, and we do this, we're going to
try to get you the best sentence. But pleading not

(42:03):
guilty is going to make it a lot harder yourself,
and a good defense lie will tell you that. They
will not tell you to plead not guilty. Let's got
a trial that and make your sentence harder. A good
defense lie will do everything to get you the best
outcome based on what actually is the evidence and what
the facts are. And the facts are if you did it,
you did it, own it, but let's work on getting

(42:24):
the lighter sentence. But you could say that to the
cows come home to some of these other offenses or offenders,
they won't do it. I'm not pleading guilty. I didn't
do it. I didn't do it. And all the evidence, videos,
everything shows they did it, still won't admit it.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
That in itself must be very difficult for a defense
load because obviously you're engaged to defend a person who
is allegedly well charged, but it's all allegation till proven
that you know damn well that you're not going to
beat it. You give that advice to the client. And
I'll speak once again on my own experience in the

(42:59):
last few years. I got loaded up with a bunch
of stuff and you know, one come down to this
tiny little technical after two years and the runners with
the district court judge goes, why you even here? Why
wasn't this dealt within a local court as a fine.
It was just ludicrous, but there was obviously a motive
behind it. We'll leave it at that, And they continued
to pursue, pursue, pursued to the eleventh hour where they

(43:22):
actually conceded that they needed to change the charges dramatically
to which was a finable offense. But where I'm going
with that is my legal team got to that moment
where we knew we had a very strong case. We
were going to knock it over, but there was just
a small, tiny, little technicality they didn't charge with, but

(43:44):
they had in their back pocket and were suggestive that hey,
this would trigger a suspended sentence if that comes up
in court, and that suspended sentence was pause because it
was a five year suspended sentence at three years because
it had already completed too, so it would have been
a three year suspended sentence, you know. So that's what
it came down to. That was their biggest stand made.

(44:04):
But that would triggered because it was a criminal offense,
you know. So it wasn't in the brief, wasn't he
wasn't there, it wasn't submitted, you know, my sentence. And
the eleventh out was the ace Trump that they pulled
out because I knew that they were gonna get knocked over.
And you know, but my defense lawyer did say exactly that, Brent,
You're going to have to just accept that we can't

(44:26):
beat this. Yeah, so it makes it very difficult, you know.
But when you're talking about, you know, the offenses in
relation to what you you know, we're speaking of them,
and it's it's just disgusting.

Speaker 4 (44:38):
Yeah, it's hard to because when I obviously first started
in parole, I said, I can't work with those people ever.
Like I had a son obviously at the time, I
can't work with anyone offenses against children whatever. And it's
sad that not long into the job, you're so desensitized
to everything. So I became a person I didn't like.
I'm very social, very outgoing. I'd never touched alcohol really

(45:02):
in my twenties. Maybe here and there. It was drinking
every night by five o'clock. I didn't remember anything I
saw or heard that day because you've just become so decent.

Speaker 1 (45:10):
And I'm do you think though, that that's why there's
such a what's the word for it? It used to
be you know, like say with rugby league and all
sports groups. You know, they'd all get around and get
on the piece after the game and you know, play
up or whatever. Mean, it doesn't rarely happen anymore. But
I know, for a fat back in the day, when

(45:31):
I was in a club and I was doing certain
things that I had certain lawyers that would call me
on a Friday and say, what are you up to? Hey,
come and have a drink next thing. You know, them
and their other lawyer friends were all having a good
time right through the early hours of Saturday morning, and
most of them would actually drive home from wherever they
were off their chops. And here I was, you know,

(45:52):
I'm talking fifteen plus years nearly twenty years ago. I'm
thinking to myself, fucking, how does this you know, like
I'm the go to guy for all the lawyers, and
how cool you know I'm ringing. But then when you
put it into the terms of how they would I guess,
download or debrief because of this desensitization, you sort of
can understand.

Speaker 4 (46:12):
Yeah, and this is a big passionate thing. I am
with corrective services and nothing's changed to my awareness. But police,
even psychologists, ambulance that sort of thing. They have what's
called a vicarious trauma framework. So vicarious trauma is for
anyone that doesn't know where you get trauma from other people.
So from reading those QP nines, the police facts on

(46:35):
child sex offenses and murders, and as a young twenty
year old female reading that day in day out, speaking
to these people and then expected to go home, be
a mum, be a wife, do all that and just
ignore it, like get over it, get over it. Corrective
services still to this day do not have a vicaria.
We're told to suck it up, we're told to get

(46:55):
over it, garden up. That pretty much that it's got
to sit somewhere in all our staff and then to
be told that we're not allowed it. You get the
whole Oh we've got to work. Helpline you can call.
It's anonymous. It's not anonymous, you say to them at
any time, I'm not hoping you'll be put on leave.
You're know a lot of working wrong. So we're just

(47:15):
bottled it up. So the only outlet normally, and like
anyone that has addiction or whatever, that turns to something
for an outlet. We go to alcohol, we go to
something that numbs us. And it got to that point
to about the ten years being in the thing where
I was not a person I wanted to be. My
marriage had ended, I hated humans, I was drinking all
the time. I was not a nice person, and I

(47:36):
was never that person. So it bottles up somewhere.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
It is, and I think it's a very valid conversation
to have because we'll deal with trauma so differently, but
it's not any different. You know, like you're talking about,
for example, someone and you would have dealt with many
a persons like myself as survivor who grew up turned
the drugs out the whole crime. I wore a mask
I wore a set of colors. This set of colors

(48:04):
I always said, was not to I guess, make me
feel hard or tough for you know, be a gangster
if I really take and strip it all back and
be truly honest. I was just a hurt, scared little
boy in a man's body that had never dealt with
the traumas that I knew that the more violent that
I was, the more dominant that I could be, and

(48:25):
the more presented I could be, no one would harm me,
you know what I mean. So that was my dealing mechanisms,
I guess, of dealing with those traumas. Each of us
have a different way of doing it, you know, some
turn of alcohol, drugs, what have you. Suicide is a
huge thing, unfortunately in all spaces, you know. And then
I guess the expectations that are put upon you guys.

(48:46):
And I once again refer back to my podcast in Townsville,
where you've got all these wonderful people up there whom
are working in these spaces of helping our young people
to better their lives, and they're giving so much. But
there is so much happening up there, and it's not
so much the troubled youth. That is an issue. But

(49:08):
why are they not wanting to go to the issue
and listen to the youth Because there's a political agenda,
and that political agenda carries all the funding or the
networking and everything that happens around the space of assisting
and helping to better and reduce crime and give people
a better way of living. Now, either they follow and

(49:32):
kick along, or the funding gets pulled, they lose their
job and they become another statistic and struggle which then
puts them on that poverty of line and that line
of hardship. And these are people that genuinely have a
heart and true passion like yourself. I can see it
by looking at you and listening to our conversation. You're
doing what you're doing because you have a genuine passion

(49:54):
to want to help people. And that's why I really
wanted to get you on today, because I feel that
people don't get to hear the other side of it,
the truth.

Speaker 4 (50:02):
And honestly, in my job, all I wanted to do
was every single person. But when you are like you said,
we don't have the funding because we don't, they don't
care enough. When these people are like we said that
revolving door. They're going in, they're going out. They're not educated,
they've obviously had a hard life, hard upbringing, that sort
of thing. Why aren't we educating them before they come out?

(50:24):
Why aren't we Because they're in maximum security, they don't
earn it, But then that person is going to go
back in. We are not spending the money on our prisoners.
We're not spending the money on our well. Like I said,
were meant to sit on thirty fifty paroleas we're sitting
on one hundred that I have to see in every week.
We can't help them because.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
They've stripped all the educational programs out of any of
the systems. You used to be able to do a ticket.
You could do a university degree, you could do studying
of whatever. And when I was doing my long term sentence,
I loved the fact and even then it was still
months before you got an approved. We just putting what
we used to in New South Falst. It was called
a bluey, so you just had to put in a

(51:03):
blue you'd sit there and just get from Pipper to
Pipper and you wouldn't know where it was and you'd
ask about it. Oh yeah, somewhere in the system. But
all you wanted to do was try and find a
way to speed your time up, but utilize your time
for a positive thing. Now when you can't do that,
and then basically you're sitting there idling. Idle. Time's not

(51:25):
good anybody, you know, especially in the system, people turn
to drugs. Violence is huge, which then obviously creates more
workload for you, which then obviously may get somebody who's
looking at coming up for parole put into a vulnerable
situation where they must act or defend themselves, which then

(51:46):
could cost them extra time. There's so many variables around
the process.

Speaker 4 (51:53):
And then, like you said, having them triple bund locking
them down for five days because the cyclone's coming, Like,
what do you think is going to happen? They're going
to sit there, They're going to come up with better ideas,
they're going to dwell on everything, let their brains work,
or at least give them something to come out. And
I know from personal experience from actually really good friends
brother that is a gone through the system over and

(52:14):
over again, and he's not a bad person. He just
doesn't know how to survive out here because he's never
got any back in. He doesn't have a ticket, he
doesn't have an education. Where do we get to the
point that we're like, we need to give this to them,
but we just throw them out the door, expect them
to be hunky door and not go back in it.
It's just not And the money it comes down to

(52:35):
government funding. I get that, but find the funding like
it's just well.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
We've got we've got money there to help every other country.
He can't fucking help our own country.

Speaker 4 (52:43):
So nobody wants.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
To do it because we reduce the statistics, and once
the statistics are reduced, it then takes away jobs. So
if jobs are then taken away, it changes the dynamics
of the economic system. Now put this in perspective, and
I'm sure you are well aware of this because of
your studies and the way you are that if we
look at other countries and their structure around babilitation and crime,

(53:06):
the reoffending rates, like you look at Norway, Denmark, all
these other places.

Speaker 4 (53:10):
When it's good, yeah, may wow.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
If anybody hasn't gone out there and watched these documents,
check on YouTube. They're all there. Have a look at
how they deal with crime and progressionally bringing people back
in to migrate into society that don't reoffend, that have education,
that have skill sets, living skills, dealing with trauma. They've
just invested so much and it proves beyond doubt they're

(53:37):
the leaders in the world. They've just had a big
forum over there now, all based around how each country
can better their criminal statistics and reduce the Chilean We're
just building more and more supermax We're building more and
more new South Wales just keep extending by thousands, and
Queensland's just doing the same.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
And that's what it is. Any of your good parole officers,
and there's some that I really respect that obviously aren't
in the job anymore. That's set out like my to
help people, to make them and to have the restraints
of the government to say no, we don't have money
for that. Now you don't have time, Like you slowly
died inside, you're like, well, this is not what I

(54:17):
thought it was going to be. Like I don't want
to put this person in prison just because you want
me to. I don't want to do that. How can
I help them?

Speaker 1 (54:23):
Now?

Speaker 4 (54:23):
You don't have time for that? Like sinus warrant do this?
Like it wears you down, and that's why obviously I left.
I was like, and there's a lot of us that
have left. I actually had a pro lee that like
I like to think most of the people that I supervised,
if I ran into them street would say hello to me,
like I don't have the caterers. I was respectful for them. Obviously,
there's a few that I don't like that weren't great

(54:46):
to me, so I wasn't great to them. But ninety
nine percent have mutual respect. And I had this one
young boy and I did everything to keep him out.
Worked on. Management kept saying you need to put him away,
you need to put him away, and I said, no, no,
we'd just leave it with me. I promise. And I've
been in the job a long time. So anyway, I
left suddenly when I I resigned from Corrective Servances and

(55:07):
I was in Bali last year. Actually, I walked out
of a club and here he was standing in front
of me, Billi Bali. I looked at him, he looked
at me and you just see, go shit. And I
said to him, I said, you're allowed to be out
of the country, and he goes, yeah. That long it
was a joke. And then he said, yeah, he goes,
I did my full time. He goes, you were gone

(55:29):
one week, you left me and they put me in.
I said, I'm so sorry, Like, I left because of
a serious reason. And I said I'm so sorry, like
and he's like, you were the only one that actually
believed in me. And you could see the disappointment and
the anger. I'm gonna upset thinking about it, the disappointment
and the anger in him going like, yes he had
a drug problem, Yes he had a gang problem, Yes

(55:49):
he had but he was trying. He was really really trying,
and putting him back in is not going to change that.
He's not going to become a rehabilitated person by putting
him back in. He's going to come back out full
time anyway, with no supervision. So you could just see
he was so broken that it was like someone that
believed in him gave up on him. And I had
to keep saying but yeah, it's just things like that,

(56:11):
as soon as I left, or any of the good
officers left, that we put our heart and soul in
trying to help these people and keep them out in
the community. They're put straight back in by our gun
Ho management loving officer pretty much like, yeah, but anyway,
ran over with that one.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Well, it's really relevant, and thank you for sharing that,
because at the end of the day, you know, these
are the facts and the realizations of what's actually taking place.
And we talk about reoccurring and reoffending and the revolving
door and all this sort of stuff. When you feel
there's nothing out there and everyone gives up on you
if you're not strong enough, and it is fucking hard,

(56:49):
you know, like if you've got no support network and
that one or two people you feel that truly you
know you can turn to them. They're not there. And
I'm not, by any means trying to make you feel
at worse about it, but just speaking in general.

Speaker 4 (57:00):
No, and honestly, I think it's.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Like all who cares? We just do what I've always
done best, and that's what you know, It's more a
survival rather than a desire. It's just a I will
do this and knowing it. You will get caught at
some stage and you will go back into the system.
But then the system becomes somewhere where it's a known place, habitual,
and it's the norm.

Speaker 4 (57:23):
And I think people have to understand too that good officers,
ones that actually are doing it because they want to
make a difference. If we supervise someone, especially like the
older gentleman's I had, or even here, if we supervise
someone even in and our customer, they come back and
you are their parole officer, we build a relationship, We
build up positive relationship. We are there wrong. Sometimes they

(57:44):
don't have any family. They've come from they've come from
youth care, they've come from juvenile justice, they've had no
one believe in them. So to have one person, even
though it is your parole officer, believe in them and
to have that taken away and management we're pretty I'm
not going to use the word statistic, but they were
pretty ruthless with that sort of thing. That if you

(58:06):
would say, can I please have this person back when
they come back out of pusty because we built such
a good rapport, they're like, not happening, We're going to
give them to so and so or whatever. They do
it on purpose, just to put that person only. And
even recently there's a young boy he came to me
first time on pro We used to take him at
seventeen in Queensland in the adult system. And he came

(58:28):
to me at seventeen with a twenty two page criminal history,
which seventeen, that's a good run. He's done well so far.
So he came to me and you're told from the
beginning there's no hope. He's done for. And I put
my heart and soul into this kid, and I did
for years. He went back in, came back out, and
I still he was a nice kid. He was good.
He just come from a travel anyway. Recently a ex

(58:51):
colleague's now working in programs in the prison.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Look.

Speaker 4 (58:53):
To be honest, I have not much to do with
anyone I worked with anymore. I got rid of that life.
But she said to me, because I ran into so
and so the other day and they said, where is she?
I miss her? And I'm like, it makes me feel
good that I didn't give up on them, even though
I'm not still there. The fact that ten years later,
five years later, these people still think, well, she actually cared.

(59:14):
And that's what I went into the job for. You
have it taken away from you or pushed down because
of the government, because of management, It breaks you down.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
It's just well, I just want to say to you,
and I know that you know, it's sort of a
little bit too late, but as someone who's had to
have quite a few prole offices over the years, and
I've done well since twenty ten, believing my life's well
and truly changed other than what I'm confronting from many
many moons ago. But I have no connection or desire,

(59:44):
like it's just not even a way of life. So
you know, for me, I would like to say thank
you for being that way, because you are one of
those few that actually genuinely have a positive impact on
people like myself who had no no one to believe
in them, you know, especially when I was younger, and
it was very true, aumatized, very angry, very bitter, you know,

(01:00:08):
and the system was just a massive middle finger, you know,
like there was nothing you could do or say that
I was going to give you respect for. But then
you flip the coin and you've got someone like yourself
that comes into a person like me back then's life
and shows a bit of compassion. It's like working with
troubled youth, you know, I get very passionate about it.

(01:00:28):
And you know, the one thing I was always told
was never get involved personally, don't emotionally allow yourself to
be involved with any clients or any of the young
people you're working with. You know, if you're going to
go there and you're going to do a workshop or
you're going to connect with these young people, remain professional
ethical obviously, but at the same time to just know

(01:00:49):
that when you leave there, like you said, you know,
you go home to your family and my dad, you know,
like and I've got from twenty six down to eleven
four children, you know, And I look at my children
every day and sometimes think how blessed they are and
how blessed I am after working away, was some of
these young people whom I know are less fortunate. How
does one not carry that emotional connection and give a

(01:01:12):
shit about that person or those people that you've just
had that interaction. If you've seen it, you've felt it,
you can't you're inhumane. Like and people do it. I
get it. They're training program to do it, or they,
like you said, you know, they suppress it so much
that at the end of the week they all just
meet up at the pub and get on it. I
lay apple, go home and drink a bottle of wine
every night.

Speaker 4 (01:01:32):
Whatever they do to stand by that those and this
is going to be probably not very PC and whatever.
But those that are in management roles in corrective services
that are high up, they're actual psychopaths. They are the
ones that and I'm telling you now, they are the
ones that I used to say I loved being a
pro officer because of my offenders. I hated my colleagues

(01:01:53):
hated them, And that's no one would understand that. But
my offenders, they had a good heart. Ninety nine percent
of them. Their heart's not bad.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
That's what I've always said. Jail's not full of bad people.
Jail's full of people that have made bad decisions. Don't
get me wrong, don't mix up my words here. Please,
Guys that you know are tuning into this because there
is a place for jail, and jail needs to be
there for certain people will stop. But the amount of
people that you meet that are actually should be there

(01:02:26):
for the rest of life, as opposed to those that, yeah,
it just had a bad run or just you know,
a bad choice, or you know, like therese fathers in
there that have defended their daughters that have been raped
and touched up or jumped in fights that women are
being attacked on, like just moral righteous moral things that
though aren't legally correct because it's broken the law and

(01:02:49):
damage has been done and they've used excessive force or whatever,
or all people that have been in positions where they're
financially destitute and all they want to do is try
and find a solution, you know, to not lose their home.

Speaker 4 (01:03:02):
Or we've seen that a lot of thattment in defense.
We've seen lot at the moment and might hard like
you see these they've done for big trafficking, or they're
done for something big because they're struggling. They've got a wife,
they've got kids, they're at work every day. They get
offered this opportunity to make their life better and they
take it, and then they're painted out to be the

(01:03:22):
worst person in the world. Well, their heart's not bad.
They're definitely not bad. The ones that are bad are
those calculated management that are telling you to do this
thing to another human being because it fits their agenda.
That's a psychopath. Not these people that snap.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Slightly old saying you've probably heard it before. You know,
it's like the screw that or the copper that got
touched up at school and got slapped around or bullied
and then decided to jump over the other side.

Speaker 4 (01:03:48):
I always said that payback. They're ones that were bullied
in skill and they want something that gives them power
over each someone else. That's exactly what it is. So
and you find that with a lot of male parole officers.
Most of the prole officers, you'll find a females because
of that university education, because of obviously going into it
not knowing what it is and wanting to help someone.
If somebody wants to go into the kind of that

(01:04:10):
justice field, and as a male, they normally go to police,
or they go to screw, or they go to But
those males that are parole officers, they were ones at
school that want to try and be that big and
bad and it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
Just, yeah, it doesn't work. I want to touch base
with you before we sort of end on today's thing.
You're doing some amazing things, and I want to commend
you on that. You're working in a space which is
a defense space in the criminal law. How are you
finding that and can you talk about much about it,
like without sort of putting you in a.

Speaker 4 (01:04:42):
Position right know, So, I obviously I've always had that
passion and love for the law, passion and That's.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
What I want to do, is I want to give
people inspiration, because that's what the Clink is based around. Now,
you know, we did our years of redemption and all
that sort of thing, but each of our guests, now
I asked two main points in their successes and yourself,
you're no different. You could gone wayward, you know, young mum,
you could have made some bad decisions like look.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
I wasn't it too perfect. I wasn't innocent, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
Exactly, no, exactly. But at the end of the day,
whatever you've done and the tools that you've used and
the way that you've lived your life and chosen to
do things has gotten you to wear other and you're
still out there and you're successfully now stayed another phase
of your life.

Speaker 4 (01:05:27):
Like I did have a big break from corrective services
and from the justice and from law. It did I'm
going to say they destroyed me. They absolutely destroyed me,
and they destroyed that passion I had inside of me
to help people. I did lose faith in the law.
I did lose faith in the justice system. So I
did have a big break from it and I traveled
a bit, did whatever. Actually, and I'm a big advocate

(01:05:49):
for this that I did a lot of counseling. I
definitely was not letting them win, but I was also
owning where I'm not a perfect person, what I could
have done better, how I could have reacted better. But
I still missed it. I missed the law side of things.
But I literally now just want to help people in
a justice system that is broken, try and get them

(01:06:12):
the best help they can. And I started looking and
I found an amazing law firm on the Gold Coast
that they don't do legal aid, but instead they do
sort of your lower fixed rate that we just pay
off when they can afford it, so it's none of
that financial pressure. It's not like he's three hundred dollars
for an email, here's this phone call, here's this sort
of thing. They're very passionate on helping people that because

(01:06:36):
to get legal a these days is almost impossible. You
can't even own a car or something. It's stupid. And
if you're in a house, but you're on your ass
too bad, So your help for your legal bills that's
not fair.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Don't ever get me started on that whole legal aid thing,
because I've obviously lost and had to sell everything to
date because of the system to fight now if I
hadn't of and I had to definitely look down that road,
the amount of paperwork, the amount of things that you
have to do, I don't know how. I don't know

(01:07:06):
how people get the help they truly need.

Speaker 4 (01:07:09):
People need to remember too that even to apply for
centilink or that when prisoners are coming out to do
all this, a fully educated person struggles with that paperwork.
How do you expect someone that you're not educating, that
you're not to go and apply for legal aid or
go and apply for cent to link. They can't do it,
and I feel like they make it hard for that reason.
So the fam I work for now, they're very big

(01:07:32):
on helping kind of a little guy but still need
to pay something, and we do. They are very big
on giving discounts if someone's a single mom or struggling
or whatever, and then just take a small deposit, say
four hundred bucks, deposit, five hundred dollars deposit and just
pay it off until you can kind of thing like.
They're very big. So I was like, this aligns with
what I want. This is what I kind of want

(01:07:53):
to do. So I started working with them. I struggled
the first. Let's for going from one side to the other,
even like the money side of things, like obviously, I
don't want to charge, Like why can't we just help
this person free? Why can't we just like do this.
Obviously we've got to pay the barristers, we've got to
pay this listitors, we've got to pay. So I get
obviously we've got a charge, but I don't want to.

(01:08:15):
I'm like, I just want this person like it was
an accident, like like especially ones at the moment, like
your car ones where they're not over the limit, they're
not dangerous driving. Something's happened and they've crashed and someone's
hurt themselves wasn't their fault, but they're now up on
serious charges, like they're broken. These people are broken, and
we want to like not we, but other law firms

(01:08:37):
that want to charge them one hundred thousand dollars just
to defend themselves. I don't agree with it. So yeah,
I love what I'm doing now. It's taken me a
while to get my foot in and see the other side.
I do love too, learning about what we were talking
about that it's not about getting them off. It's definitely
people think, oh, how can you defend this person. It's
not about that. It's very honest. It's very Look, we're

(01:08:58):
not going to waste your money. We're not going to
take you to a trial and charge you another fifty
thousand dollars to be found guilty. Can take or leave
the advice. They can go no, I'm going to someone
else and I'm going to go to trial. But this
firm is not in the business of making money. And
that's what I stand for. And I'm very big on
talking to people and trying. Even people that are currently

(01:09:19):
on parole that are getting sentences, well they're on parole
because they're prole wasn't suspended, and nobody's explaining to them
the ins and outs of what that means for their parole.
They think people like to talk. Parole LEAs like to talk.
Everyone likes, Oh you do this, don't listen to anybody.
So educating people on okay, this is the best outcome
because blah blah blah, but guess what you do this

(01:09:40):
you're going back to like nobody explains it to it.
So I like using what I've done to help people,
Like I feel like there's just me. I'm not one
that's into your big social media or into advocating for people,
just slowly trying to do my bit to help people
as much as I can.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
So I love your passion and I really do, and
I commend you on it. And you're just growing still,
you know, and that's that's a really awesome thing. I
want to ask you, As I said, you're in a
position where you've taken on a couple of roles in
life with pure passion and desire to want to help others.
So I can't help but continue to say well done.

(01:10:18):
People have so much more motive and it's generally not
in the right way in these spaces that they work.
So what would you give as advice to someone who
has a vision or a dream? For example, I know
a young man that's actually turned his life around who's
doing a law degree. At the moment, he was a bikey.

(01:10:41):
I was in jar with his dad. They're doing great
things in the essay space. It's awesome to see. And
he's got these flat from people. You know, you're going
to get your haters and this and that. He's just
battled on. So I'm just going to say, you know,
well done. And here I'm not going to mention his name,
but credit to him, and you know, like, what would

(01:11:01):
you give somebody like that? Because it's so easy to
go fuck It's too hard. People are going to write
me off for my old Coe's mates and they I think,
I'm a dog. You know this and that. What do
you say to someone? How does somebody then find that
confidence and that desire and that passion to want to
take those steps to better their life following in the
path of maybe defending others.

Speaker 4 (01:11:22):
Yeah, I was about to say, fuck them is what
I always say.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
That's pretty clear.

Speaker 4 (01:11:28):
I think I be listening to that book lately. Let them,
let me hear it, let them like, let them criticize you,
let them do whatever. I'm criticized daily on it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:11:38):
I love the I mess up one thing at work
and I'm all the good things I do go out
the window. I think. The biggest advice I have learned
too is we always remember the negatives. Someone could tell
you a million times you're doing an amazing job. One
person tells you your shit, and you remember that person
that said your shit.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Marriage.

Speaker 4 (01:11:58):
Just literally focus on what you want, focus on what
your heart is, what your morals are, what you want
to get out alive and fuck everyone else pretty much,
so you're gonna get haters no matter what you do.
You could be the best person in the world. As
long as you're being true to yourself. You can at
least stand with your headheld tool and said, I have

(01:12:20):
done everything I can for what I believe in. What
the outcome is, no one knows. But as long as
you do what you want to do, and that's what
I have had. Nobody has not had adversity. I don't
care what people say. Every person has had adversity, might
be minor compared to someone else's adversiti bit, we've all
had adversity. Get on with it, like do your work.

(01:12:42):
If you need to go to counseling for it, go
to counseling. But don't sit there and say, oh, I
can't do this, it's too hard or whatever. Just get
it done and just focus on what's the best thing
for you. It's pretty much mine.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
I love that, and just the top that of how
does somebody initiate and start to I guess take that
first step into well, just utilize your experience because this
is your journey that we're talking about today. So to
get into the space that you're in. That person's got
a bit of a background but believes that they want
to give back. Like this young man that I was

(01:13:15):
talking about, How does one then take those steps because
obviously it's not easy. It's not like you know, mister
or mister just come out of year twelve with their
top marks and you know, off to Union they go.
You're someone who should never be at the bar. How
do I start to take those steps to just follow that.

Speaker 4 (01:13:33):
One step at a time, one day at a time,
Like as in, if you want to go to UNI
and you didn't do well at school, there's so many
opportunities out there, we just don't No one talks about them.
No one shows kids or shows these struggling people how
we can do it. So even if you are Joe
Blow on the street and you run across a kid
at the park and he's chatting to you, but he's

(01:13:54):
hoped and dreams but he's never done school, if we
just educate us and go hang on, there's this bridging program.
You could do six months doing this and like there's
different ways to do. You don't have to finish year
twelve to go to UNI. The days you don't have
to do. There's so many different avenues. And then just
reach out to even volunteer places if you want, and say, oh,
can I just come and work for a day in

(01:14:14):
your law firm once a week and I'll just do
some filing or something. We all have to start at
the bottom, like we're all being shit kickers in our days.
Like I've got a twenty two year old boy that
wants to be manager, the first ever job. I don't
know where this entitlement came from, but just keep going
one day at a time and then whatever your dream is,
look into what it takes to get there and do

(01:14:35):
it and fuck the haters. I just can't say it enough.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
I love that and I'm big on it. And you know,
if you look follow my post, my Instagram post on
the Click podcast. I mean, I'm constantly having little little
moments of positive sort of content and I'm big on that,
you know, because we all cop it, and the proofs
in your actions and as far as I'm concerned that,
you know, actions speak louder than words, and your actions

(01:15:02):
are there in proof of what you're trying to achieve
and do, and look, I just want to say well done. Congratulations,
and I know that it's not been easy to step
up today and have this conversation, So thank you for
being able to give an informative view of what it
is like as a prole officer, because a lot of
people don't know and won't understand that. You ever see

(01:15:24):
it from one side of the.

Speaker 4 (01:15:25):
Too, that everybody's a human. So whether they're a parole officer,
maybe not police, they're not really human. But I'm kidding.
I'm kidding any police. I'm so kidding kind, but everybody's
a human. So that parole officer is sitting across from you,
they're a human. They're just trying to do a job.
That offender sitting across from you, he's a human. Have

(01:15:47):
some respect for him as well. He's not beneath you.
He's not just because his life went a different way.
We just need to treat everyone as a human and
that's all I want from the world. But it seems
harder to get that then.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
Well too, Chel, I think you're amazing and anybody else
out there, guys, Look, I hope you've really enjoyed the
chat with Trischelle today and got some really good informative information.
I've been I've thoroughly enjoyed it, and it's a side
that I've really wanted to hear and be heard from
someone that's lived it. So on, behalf of the clink.
Thanks for your time, thank you for joining me, and

(01:16:23):
everybody out there. Continue to go through each episode. Like
I said, seventeen seasons, a lot of hard work and
a lot of amazing stories of people's lives that are inspiring.
Trachelle's is no different and we will be back next week.
Big shout out once again Sideway, Surf Pod Shape. Thank
you guys and to you the listener. This doesn't work

(01:16:44):
without you. Have a fantastic dame and be the best
you can be.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
Fort Record, don't try and make you out comfortable. Photo
Record you try and world and stuff for your dad.
Photo Record lab on me going hard the way way.
Photo Record, ain't trying to link, No trying to wat stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
Record for record for the record, for the rage, for
the record, for the reckon

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
M