February 17, 2025 • 52 mins
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In this episode of The Clink, Brent welcomes Devyn Hammond, who shares her remarkable journey from Zimbabwe to Australia and her involvement in a significant fraud case that led to her imprisonment. Devyn Hammond and Brent discuss the complexities of financial knowledge in high-stakes environments, the trust placed in individuals within these systems, and the ripple effects of legal troubles on families.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Approache production.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
For the record.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I don't try and make you uncomfortable for the record.
You ain't trying world and stuff for your right photo
record lab on me going all the way the way
for the record. Ain't trying to link, No trying to
waste stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
For the record, for the record, for the for the record,
for the red for the record record for the record.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Don't try and make you uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Welcome to season seventeen, Episode two of The Clink. What
a fantastic season it has been already with kicked off
with I just want to say a massive thank you
to everybody who does jump over, to all all our
new listeners, thank you very much. We are aiming for
five million downloads this season, and I can guarantee you
it will happen at what stage I'm unsure, but possibly
(01:16):
halfway through. I'm counting on. Big shout out to our sponsor,
Sideway Surf. Without you, we wouldn't be able to do
this on the weekly and deliver you the best stories
without further ado. We have a wonderful lady, Yes, a lady,
another female guest coming to the Clink now, this amazing woman.
(01:36):
And I say amazing because to obviously have gone through
what she's gone through and done what she's done. You've
got to have some sort of brain. And I'm actually
quite intrigued and this story will open up and I'm
sure give you guys a lot more information, but there's
obviously a great story of positivity off the back of it.
Today's guest Devin Hammond. She is somebody whom has not
(02:02):
long been released from jail. She was sentenced to I
believe four four and a half years, with a bottom
sentence of two and a half and all for a
hundred and five million dollar fraud.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Devin, Welcome clean, Thank you, Brent, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Wow. I've met some people in my time, and I've
definitely had some people who have been involved in some
large amounts of money. Over the two hundred guests that
I've had. One hundred and five million is a massive,
massive figure. Wow.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
It's yeah, it's huge, and it definitely wasn't I think
until after I was arrested, and particularly having a look
at the case in the media, that you really begin
to grasp the amount that the fraud ended up being.
And I think one of the the worst things to
(03:07):
happen was the desensitization to that monetary figure throughout the
years of all of this going down. So yes, it's
a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
It is a lot of money. And look, you know,
we don't condone here at the Clink. We're not here
to praise and promote anybody's crimes, as everybody that does know,
these are stories of people's lives. So for the new
listeners out there, don't feel that we are here to
(03:39):
glorify anybody's actions or crimes. As I said, this is
their journey, this is their story, and this is the
Clink where there is no bullshit. We don't pull no punches.
Nothing is scripted, and the people that come on here
genuinely have and do make great changes in their life
to inspire others. Today we will learn how and why
(04:01):
and the great things that Devon is wanting to do
with her life from here on out. And I'm sure
she has some quality tools to be able to give
to our guests, Devin, for many of our guests that
wouldn't have known anything about your matter, especially yourself. I mean,
I'm looking at quite a young woman. I'm not looking
(04:21):
at somebody who is an older woman, And to me,
I'm thinking Okay, you've got to be pretty switched on
to the age that you are and be able to
be in such a sophisticated network of people obviously one
for trust and two intelligent wise. But most of all,
I like our conversation that we had prior to coming
(04:44):
here today about where you on a head with your life,
and I feel that with that intelligence and ability that
you can achieve great things. So that's where we want
to get to in today's story. But first of all,
let's take everybody back to who you are. Where did
it begin, Let's go back to where you grew up?
What it would write?
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Yeah, for sure, Brent, So, I was actually born in Zimbabwe.
So I immigrated to Australia when I was eight years
old in two thousand and one. So I'm not very
old now. No, I'm only thirty one, and I think
looking back now, and this is only upon a huge
(05:24):
amount of reflection, obviously prior to prison while I was
on bail and then being in prison and afterwards as well.
But I think growing up in a country like Zimbabwe,
it definitely contributed to how I was or how I
am as a person in terms of, like you say, ambitious, disciplined.
(05:50):
And I don't know if a lot of people do
know much about Zimbabwe, but basically I went to boarding
school when I was seven years old, so I would
be at school day to Friday and then i'd only
be home on the weekend. And it's super strict over there.
(06:12):
It's very different to most schools, particularly public schools in Australia.
You know, sport is compulsory. You don't have much of
a choice in terms of yeah, not doing sport or
I guess, extra activities outside of school. And there's a
(06:32):
very big difference in sort of like the teacher student
relationships in terms of you just you absolutely don't, you know,
talk back to them. I remember in primary school I
got soap put in my mouth from a teacher because
you know, they don't have the rules and regulations like
(06:55):
what you do in this country.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
It's just.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And so it was definitely something that was putting in Yes, yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
For sure, it's definitely still old school.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
I know my brother got the cane a lot at
boarding school and things like that too, so it's still
sort of it definitely still happens over there, or more
recently than it does here. But yeah, so I immigrated
in two thousand and one with my family, and my
parents did that basically in the hope for a better
life there. There's a lot of civil unrest over there
(07:30):
and still is, and if you are I guess like
a business owner or a farmer in particular things like that,
you kind of had a target on your back in
terms of, you know, people fighting for your land and
things like that. So it's brutal, you know, lots of
violence and murders, and that was kind of creeping into
(07:53):
our lives in certain ways. And my parents definitely went
through similar experiences in terms of violence and threats and
things like that.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So I've actually seen documentaries on the country and their
murder rate is through the roof and there are no
go zones especially, and I like, without getting into any
racial sort of conversation, but obviously within white sort of
going into color areas and stuff like that, a lot
(08:25):
of gang activity and a lot of a lot of
corruption and definitely beyond and I mean for a young woman,
I couldn't imagine how hard that would be to grow
up there for your mummy then you know what I mean,
let alone yourself. That is something that really sort of
(08:45):
I guess hits home when you look at you know
where you've come from, and coming to Australia from somewhere
you know, I guess the only way you'd put it
is in a country of survival.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
And things are just done so differently there in terms
of business, just in terms of the way of life,
it's really different. So thankfully I wasn't too old when
I did move here, so I did a lot of
my schooling in Australia, which for sure helped in terms
(09:20):
of fitting in getting to know the culture better and
just yeah, not being out of school where it was
harder to make friends and things like that. So yeah,
I started, I started primary school here and then kept
going with like my sporting and things like that. I
(09:41):
was a really keen swimmer, so I was a very
competitive swimmer when I was younger, so that, I guess
as well instilled a lot of discipline and drive in me.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
So I was commuting actually from like Woollongong to Sydney
which is about two hours on the train, and in
the corporate world once I graduated and things like that,
and I liked it. But the commuting is like soul
draining it's really difficult. So I call that quits and
(10:16):
then went and just worked locally, and then I ended
up working for my parents. They had an engineering business,
so yeah, that's what I was doing. And then I
was traveling with a girlfriend of mine. We did like
a europe trip and yeah, it was just doing this. Yeah,
life is super normal for me, super normal, And I
(10:38):
think that's one of the biggest things as well. It's like,
not everyone who lands in jail or finds themselves in
the justice system or even a criminal matter. We certainly
don't all come from specific backgrounds or stereotypical backgrounds that
some people may presume we do. But for me, that's
(11:00):
that definitely opened my eyes, you know, during that time
as well. But yeah, so I was working for them
and then unfortunately their business had to go into liquidation.
So one of my girlfriends, she was still working in
the city and she knew of someone who was looking
(11:22):
for someone else to help with with adminted accounts kind
of thing, and that's how I fell into the job
that I did. I was twenty one when I started
working in this job that I was and yeah, it
started off pretty normal, Like I found it difficult to
get my head around. It wasn't sort of processes that
(11:43):
I had come across before, But I guess for me,
I learned pretty quickly and can pick up on things,
and that's sort of what happened. And yeah, basically, the
longer I was there, the better I got at my job,
the more I was trusted, I was privy to different
(12:03):
information as I was there longer, and eventually I basically
knew that hang on a second, this isn't all you
know straighty one eighty or how most people do things,
because sometimes I think to myself, like, you're freaking idiot,
like what were you thinking? How do you not have
(12:26):
a moment that you're like what am I doing? Am
I going ahead with this?
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Or am I not?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
And do I resign or just walk away and just
my business and.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Just And it was never it was never a situation
of like okay, like this is what's happening. Are you
with us? Or are you're not kind of thing. It
was very much like drips of water in a bucket
and it's getting fuller and fuller, and you know, little
bits here and little bits there, and then next thing
you know, the bucket is full and overflowing and the
(12:57):
AFP and knocking off my door. So I think that's
what made it really difficult not to kind of take
the rose colored glasses off and take a real look
at Hang on a second, what does this mean for me?
And just because you're not the one always making the
(13:17):
decisions and telling everyone else what to do sort of thing.
If you're there and you can see what's going on
and you're still helping the clogs turn so to speak, well,
you correct, you're you're involved.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
And this is this is the thing in Australian law.
You know, many years ago, a get away driver and
a bank robberly a robbery would only be charged if
they were caught with the stolen car and an accessory.
But if a bank robber was to leave that vehicle
and there was two accomplices and there was shots fired
and someone passed in that robbery, there was a murder
(13:59):
charge which everybody would be charged in company. And that's
it goes across the board now across all matters, you know,
like if you're if you are, like yourself, a part
of a chain or a network of persons involved in
any crime, then you know the duty of as they
call it, the duty of care. That wonderful word I'm
(14:22):
sure you heard many times in jail. Yes, not that
there's fucking anything done with it. You have got whatever,
but no, the bottom line being that you are a
part of a criminal organization which then holds you liable
(14:44):
because at some stage you should have taken the initiative
and gone no, this is wrong, or they expect you
to go and give everyone up and be the little mile,
which you did have a mile in your group. And
I believe that you know, for quite a long time
there was surveillance done internally, rugs and cameras, and you
(15:07):
had no idea, did.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
You no no idea?
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Yeah, it's it's crazy looking at it now, and you know,
once your brief of evidence is served and you can
see everything that.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
Has been.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Recorded or yeah, surveillance that whole time, it's pretty eerie.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I think it is, and I think people, yeah, it's
not until you present it with something like that, you know,
when you realize how deep into your own privacy that
things can get and conversations that are totally irrelevant to
what the matter is about, but are very personal within
your own space or partner space or yeah, for sure,
and you know, like it can turn a lot of
(15:48):
people very paranoid to even want to leave the house,
let alone go to the shop, sit in their car,
pick up a phone call.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Definitely massive, massive effect and.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
That definitely had it like it had that effect on me.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Was it your home as well that was bugged or
just your office?
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Not my home, just my office and my phone. I
think some some others maybe had their cars done as well, possibly,
but yeah, for me it was it was my phone
and enough.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
I always thought as well.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
I always wondered if when I was on bail, I
was like, is it now my home? So yeah, like
you say, with the paranoia, that for sure is you know,
it has an effect. For me, it was while I
was on bail, which was for three and a half years,
and then even when I got home and you know,
you're on parole, so you still have all of these
(16:42):
conditions that you have to meet and you know, restrictions
on you. Yeah, you you definitely go the extra mile
not to fuck it up.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
How and I don't want to just sort of ask
the obvious, but how did you feel when things sort
of come to a crunch and you know you're in
cuffs and you're going into custody. I mean, I know
myself and many that would listen to the clink know
that feeling. I never forget the time where I was
(17:12):
arrested for importation in a controlled delivery. You know, I
turned up. I actually had known that it was off,
but I went through with it because it's just what
I had to do to shut it down, so to speak.
And you know, next minute, I'm hog tied in the
middle of winter, facing gravel into the road, pitch black,
and here I am thinking, where the fuck have you
(17:35):
all come from? Because there was no trees, no roofs.
It was an industrial area that was quite ah lo.
It was just flat, you know what I mean, like
industrial block. But these these cars and these lights and
these gorillas just come out of nowhere swinging and mate.
I was just like, fuck, this is this is a
lot and it is It's a it's a smack in
(17:58):
the mouth. It's one that you just go Holy Tom Dooley,
like your whole world just goes shit. I'm you know,
zip up and just suck it up. That's just the
way it goes.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Yeah, Like the way that I try and describe it,
and this was I could never really put it into
words prior and actually while I was like inside, I
read a lot of books and I was reading a
Lance Armstrong Brooks. So I don't know how credible he
is or not, but anyway, but he was talking about
his cancer diagnosis and the way that he explained it
(18:33):
when he was sitting in his doctor's office and they said,
you know, gave him the results. He said, it feels
like the blood in your body starts turning the other way.
And I was like, that's such a good feeling, like
such a good way to have it. Yeah, because it's
like you're in shock, You're you're like numb, you like,
(18:56):
you know, have those cold sweats kind of thing. And
I just like, he feels so lost, and I think
that's a really good way to describe it. It feels like
the blood starts like flowing in the opposite direction and
your body is just like you literally feel like you're
upside down kind of thing, or like have no idea
what it's.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
It's not a nice feeling. And I've said many will understand,
but I mean for me and I'm sure others, you know,
your first instinct at that stage is I'm arrested. I'm
not going home and in trouble. So I'll just shut
the fucking mouth and just go through the process. I mean,
I've never put in a statement never, I just refuse it.
(19:35):
It's just something that you know, I don't want to
talk to you. You've arrested me. I'll see in court.
That's it.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
Yeah, I think that's such like you. It's such a
thing that you like see in movies. You know, you
have the right to remain silence, but you're not really
listening because you're just thinking what the fuck with the
fuck and to actually and like for someone like me
who I've never had any like running with the police
before or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
So and it was the AFP, and it was the AFP,
which I had the same thing, like they're full on.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
They are full on, definitely, and you know, thankfully I
could speak to my solicitor prior who obviously they you know,
advise you don't say anything at that time. But yeah,
for people to actually realize at that point that you
do not have to say anything and that you know
you it's best not to, but you're not thinking straight.
(20:30):
So yeah, it's like it's it's so scary and foreign
and unknown.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Did you have any did you have any like and
I know you obviously well I'm not going to say
I know, because that's not something that I should say,
But did you know the amounts that were coming through,
like to that figure of around about one hundred million?
Was that something called within the MILLI multi multimillions.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
I within the multi multi millions. Yes, I would record,
you know, figures and stuff like that because I'd be
asked for them and it was just easier for me
to kind of keep on top of things. So yes,
I knew it was a lot.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
And how and how does someone like yourself? And please
feel free at any stage just to say to me,
I don't want to answer, and I'm not going to
put you in a position. I know that we've dealt
with this and this is now moving forward, so I'm
hopefully you're okay to speak and be open. We don't
need to know names and places and times, but you know,
like when we're talking about that sort of money, Like,
(21:28):
I'll be straight up, if I was in a position
and I knew someone was taking one hundred and five
million dollars and I was in some way, I guess
at first you didn't really have a chance to say
that you didn't want to be involved because you were
just automatically brought into it. It was a part of
your job description, I guess, wasn't it. But knowing that
(21:50):
you know, and look, people are going to say, ah, yeah,
well that's wrong and you should just put your hand
up and yeah, okay. Look for the people out there
that are on that path and haven't got any I
guess experience of being put in that position or lived
a life where you know opportunity sometimes it's it weighs
greater than you know. I guess the honesty policy. I
(22:14):
know many years ago for me that if I knew
someone was earning one hundred and five million, I'd be
taking a chunk of that myself, especially if I was
dragging me through it. How did you feel knowing that
you know this money was being made by a group
or a much bigger sort of picture, and you're just
a piece in that puzzle. That's and I realize, and
(22:37):
quote me if I'm wrong that you did make something
from it, and you know, look, it's up to you
if you want to disclose that.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I've seen what I've seen, but I'm not going to
make those figures announce. That's up to you, but I
don't think it was anywhere near enough to be doing,
to be doing four years or two and you know,
for someone to knowingly taking advantage of you, which I
think that's the bottom line. These people above you obviously
(23:05):
knew and were well and truly involved. I mean what
it was there that was the head of the tax
department's son or something involved in a lawyer like These
are prominent educated people who knew exactly what they were doing.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
And I think that's why I kept going as well
because or didn't leave, was because I trusted these people
in terms of their positions, their qualifications.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, that's what about to say with the people that
you're working around, obviously very intellectual, did you feel that
you guys maybe were a step ahead and that this
is possibly something that would be worth doing.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah, I think I trusted the fact that, you know,
if it was said that this is what the plan is,
this is how it's going to work out, that that's
how it would work out for sure. So and certainly
in terms of money and things like that, I was.
I was on a good wage, that's for sure. But
(24:06):
as you say, it was nowhere near anything you know
that some others benefited from and it was absolutely not
worth the heartache and time and struggle of going to prison.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
For even legal costs. Your legal costs would be it
would have been three times more than what you.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Were one hundred that's definitely you know fact as well.
My legal fees were you know, paid for privately. And
to put that kind of stress on my family that
certainly wasn't me who could come up with the money
because my bank accounts were frozen. I couldn't do anything,
my assets were gone. So to I guess hold that
(24:49):
guilt and shame to you know, for the fact that
my family and my partner and extended family had to
help me immensely with that is really it's difficult because
it doesn't just become about you, it's you know that
it's so much, so many more people in the picture.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, And I think that that's something that we all
forget when we're in that position and we see that opportunity.
Sometimes we're blinded by the domino effect. And you know,
I think it's any in human nature to take opportunities
and you know, test waters and look, I don't care
what anybody says everybody's got something in their closet, you
know where the people want to admit it, and people
(25:30):
want to sit there and be judgmental, Go ahead and judge,
But I reckon when you look in the mirror, you
know damn well that there's there's things there that you
know you hide from the world, and look, you know,
that's life. People are always going to be pointing the
finger or judgment. I mean, hey, I've been on bail
and I still am for four and a half years
from something sixteen years ago that I had nothing to
(25:51):
do with, you know, so you know, without going into
those details. It a little bit over the media very
soon because I'm going back to court in April again.
But yeah, you know, we're talking hundreds of thousands of
dollars in legal costs over that time, countless hours of
loss and disappointment for my children, for my family, the
destruction of a relationship like so much.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Can even imagine one hundred percent like having to go
through this while you have children who you know are
still in your care, who you're still care or not,
you know, whether they're adults or still you know, living
with you. That would be so difficult, and we put
off having kids for seven years because it was just like,
(26:34):
there's no way that I can do this while you know,
going through this huge amount of uncertainty. And I always
felt so hot, like so horrible for the women inside
who were missing babies and young kids.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
And isn't it funny, Like I don't think people realize
and I'm sure you can talk about this. I think
it's something we should touch on from a female's point
of view, especially someone who has experienced jail, that you know,
women who are pregnant or in the early stages of
pregnancy whilst in a detached from their babies within weeks,
(27:11):
is in an or it's a month.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
It can be yeah, like not even it can be.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
It's actually heartbreaking and so sad what women have to
endure whilst falling pregnant or being pregnant and in custody.
I mean, how was that to know and see as
a woman, Because I feel that it's important that we
share that with our listeners out there to understand.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
You know, I know I spent time with the girl
and she I think she maybe got like a few
days with her baby when she had her inside, and
so when she was leaving, she she didn't even know
her baby that she was going out to and same
with her baby not knowing her, you know, and they
(27:56):
can be three five years old, whatever the sentence is.
You know, they've missed all of that. And I know
that even in the New South Wales prison systems there
were some facilities for women and their children, but even
those were getting shut down and there were no resources
(28:17):
for them. And it's just it's a fact of the
matter that we need to be looking after these women
with their children. Yes, it's not an ideal situation, but
it isn't.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Look I'm not sitting here saying everybody should feel sorry
for you know. I mean, we all make choices and
we all know where it's going to end up when
it comes tom we got to take ownership for our actions.
And that's not what this is about. This is you know,
talking about I guess humanity, you know, like I know,
for a factor, as a male, I was, I really
jacked up. I ended up in Segro for months on end.
(28:55):
And during that time, my partner, she was four months
pregnant when I was arrested, and I was looking at
double figures. So you know, my my romand time was
fighte full on. I was not an approachable person, not
at all. I was very, very aggressive, very disruptive in
the system, which did me no favors by any means
(29:16):
on either side, because I mean, you don't go in
there the wind and you don't upset the screws because
next minute the squad's coming in and you're getting turned
upside down. Next we minuk, you're sitting in see grow
and no one gives a fuck because you're getting stripped.
The screws get stripped from there. From the main you're
the last people to get fed, last person to get
your shower, last person to get your phone calls. So
you are basically left with nothing. And I didn't find
(29:40):
out immediately when my son was born, and I missed
out on the first three and a half years of
his life. So I can relate to, you know, coming out,
and I vowed, I asked not to have any visits
for the last I was there on the Gold Coast
and I was down in Bathist for the last months,
so I said, no, no visits, like it's not right
(30:01):
to the kids. When I was at Empty and Graft
and you know, the closer sort of places that was manageable,
but once you sort of hit Sydney and then south
of Sydney or west, you've you know, it's not fair
to the family. So for me, as somebody who understands
as a male, what it was like to have that
detachment and then coming home years later, it's like, who
(30:23):
are you? Who are you to tell me what to do?
Who are you to ask for a hug and a
kiss and that that natural connection where you know, you
embrace that moment you hold each other. It was very
very very hard, very hard. So I couldn't imagine from
a woman's point of a mother who's given birth to
the child and the child being removed how detrimental that
(30:46):
it beat it both yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
One hundred percent and very sympathetic about it then, but
even more so now that I am a mother and
now I'm just like, oh okay, now I really am
just cannot cannot even get how them as mothers can
cope in that situation. And when you know, if you
are in at the time COVID lockdowns or you're still
(31:10):
going through induction, or how.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Bad was that I come in on the back and
I come in and got remanded on the back end
of it, and it was just we're on a twenty
and four.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
What a shit show.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
We were let out for four hours, and it varied
depending on the landing and the screws to whether or
not you've got the top landing on the bottom landing,
And each week it would rotate, so you might get
four hours after lunch or four hours in the morning.
But either way you were down twenty hours a day.
So it was worse than sego and two out in
a one out cell.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
So when I went in, I was did you just
say two out in a one out?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yep? And your head's next to the next to the toilet.
Literally your head or your feet would be touching the toilet. Wow,
that's exactly how it was.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
We when I went in, we had to do two
weeks of COVID quarantine and majority of that time, or
at least, yeah, half of it, I spent in a
four out with four girls, and that.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Was you can't They won't let you out one boy
one either, because you've got to all go in at
the same and come out at the same exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
They keep you. You know, you all came in the
same date, so you stay together.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Oh, you're watching everybody else come out and go out
of the yard and start to migrate back into the
main and it's like.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
And that was only for an hour a day then, so,
like you say, it's basically like being in Segro. And
then I did get COVID while I was in more
towards the end of my sentence, but by this stage
I was in a transitional center and the rules were
if you got COVID, you went back to Malawa or
silver Water as most people know it.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
So then from transition, I think basically a Segro environment.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
One hundred percent, And that was we weren't allowed out,
and I got stuck on silver Water for fifteen days.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
With a penandole once a day.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Oh if that? If that?
Speaker 4 (33:00):
And there was one of the screws was telling me
she had seen some of the men at Mubrc or
silver Water. They were in COVID isolation there and some
of them were getting stuck there for like a month,
and she just said, these are like, you know, grown men,
some of the toughest men around who I just by
the end of it, they're like in tears because they're
(33:21):
just it's driving you mental. You have no answers, you're
just stuck there. Waiting because you're in COVID quarantine.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
They want no communication even even yelling between the cells
like you know, and you sort of got that lockdown.
Like if you come off your backyard it's in segra,
you've got you can't see anyone, but you've got your
little bars off the back of those tiny little yards.
You can at least throw a line, you can cook up,
you can pass drinks, food, whatever, you can some help
to someone, you know, yeah, interact with your mirror, you
(33:47):
know whatever. But that right there, that whole COVID thing
was just.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
Yeah, so hard.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Yeah, so that we just need to be looking into
again the resources for the mothers and children. I was
at Emy Planes and they had one for a while there.
They ended up closing that down they last I know,
that whole you know, facility got closed down. So there's
not really a lot available for the women in New
(34:18):
South Wales at all anymore. But it was it was
a really good setup for the women with their children
while they were there. But it just seems to be
like they just cut cut, cut here, there and everywhere.
And you know, as much as people might think, well
if she was in prison for a reason, then you know,
(34:40):
that's too bad kind of thing. But as you know,
so many of of us know, or people who are
trying to advocates, well, what are we setting up? What
are we setting up? You know for these children who
are entering.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Those it becomes it becomes a return. Well, the revolving door.
That's that's the only word for it. It's a door
that rops and constantly in out, in out, and it
becomes general rational.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
And that's what I learned.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
You do you see, you know, like I I even
during living life as a as a biker, you know
what I mean, a one percenter for many many years,
only fifteen years, I never brought it technically into my home,
you know what I mean. Club life was club life
because I never wanted to see my children go down
those paths. They were my choices through the upbringing that
(35:30):
I had. It's just it's the path that I laid on.
You know, I didn't. I did know better in the end, yes,
but I didn't. I didn't have a lot of choices
when I was youngest. Anyway, that become what I classed
as a family because I had no family. But I
never wanted that for my children. And I'm so blessed
and grateful for my four children, whom three are pretty
well on their way to well twenty six and nearly
(35:52):
eighteen and fort and so they're well and truly up there.
And my youngest as young, but you think he's old.
But the bottom line then is they're all doing very well.
So I've always said that my wrongs are their rights,
and I'm very proud of that because they're not naive,
they're not blinded, and they're not silly. They're know right
from wrong, and they understand and they see also to
the way the world is for what it is. You know,
(36:14):
if somebody's down on their luck or they're in trouble,
they know, they're very aware of their surroundings. And they've watched,
you know, myself live with mental health issues too. Then
obviously you know, doing some wonderful things and helping others
grow from their you know, their worst times. And I've
always been very upfront and I think that you know,
(36:36):
we can help our children and protect our children, give
them better tools and ways through our own experiences. I've
never understood a second and third generational I guess criminal
family or member of a club, or a father and
son KOI, or mother and daughter KOI. I've just like
I couldn't think of anything work, to be honest with you,
(36:58):
And I even know people out there that you know,
literally there's one I won't go into too much, but anyway,
a bloke I'd known a long long time that was
a great bloke, never in trouble, got into a certain
way of life, made a bad choice, ended up with
a really bad habit, which a lot of them do.
His sons went from great young men to one now
doing seven years and he's only in his early twenties
(37:19):
while his dad's doing another another breach of parole and
doing three or four on top of what he's already done.
Like it's just heartbreaking, and I.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
Just had to find Yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
How could you ask that of your kids? You know,
like they deserve a life. Well, what we do and
how we choose that's on us, but not.
Speaker 4 (37:35):
Actually sure, Yeah, for sure, And I think that's like,
I think that's so good that you know they can
see both sides to it, and like you say, they
can recognize if someone is having a hard time or
you know, it's going through something and knowing that they're
still like yourself are probably a really good person, you know,
(38:00):
and just and knowing that you know, people can have
difficult times, tough situations, and the reality is we're all
going to go through those, and everyone's privy to a
tough time, and it's you know, it's guaranteed, but that
you know, life isn't just how you want it, or
(38:21):
you know some of the privilege that you know a
lot of us do have. And and to be honest,
that I had before I experienced any of this, for sure,
I was like super ignorant to it. And I think
that's why I'm really, i guess passionate about talking about
it now, is because I was so ignorant to the
(38:41):
lives that some people have lived, the places that they've
come from, the environments that they've been brought up in,
and how different it is to for example, a family
like mine, where I was, you know, only ever encouraged
and loved and you know, given all the good things.
But you know that's not the case for everybody. And
(39:04):
I think, you know, to understand that those sorts of
people need to be given a chance, need to be
told they're worth something, and then for people like me
to also learn, you know, what it is to live
in life that is different to yours and give that
people that opportunity.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah, I love that. I want to ask a little
bit more, just touching back on your experience prior to jail,
because I think it's important you know the lead up
and also to your experience, because you know, looking at you,
I would assume that you probably had a little bit
of a rough time at the start, and hey, I
(39:46):
mean this is the fact. Is what people need to
know because it is an ugly fucking place and it
doesn't matter who you are, how much money you've got,
how good looking you are, how fat, how skinny you small,
how big your boobs, your bum, whatever the health or
don't got, you are going to be vulnerable. And this
is the reality of you know, people falling into this space,
(40:08):
making mistakes or wrong choices and then ending up in cast.
Right your process, did you plead not guilty or did
you plead guilty?
Speaker 4 (40:18):
So I pled guilty in my case.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
And it still took years for it to go through.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
It still took years. A lot of that did have
to do with COVID. By the time that I that
I did do that, you know, my sentencing date was
changed probably at least three times. And you know, as
you would know, one change can be four months down
the track kind of thing. So so yeah, I was.
(40:44):
I was on bail for three and a half years,
and at some point I can't remember exactly it was,
you know, back and forth with my solicitor, embarrassaor and
looking at the evidence and and you know, working it
all out and and yeah, I made the decision to
plead guilty. And for me, like bail was worse now
(41:11):
that now I know, bail was worse than jail because
the feeling of the unknown. And you know, as I've said,
I've never experienced jail before. I don't really know anyone
that had been in.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
You know, it don't give you any reduction. They'll give
you any reduction because of your time on bail.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
Not because of my time on bail.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
No, isn't It isn't that. And this is something that
people don't understand unless you're in custody and you're on
remand you know, sometimes and I'm grateful for when I
did get arrested back in two thousand and nine, because
I was looking at double figures and ended up with
the six, which was which was a great number for
that at the time, So you know, I'm definitely not
(41:53):
whinging about it. But what I did realize was the
time that I was there and I was bail refused
because of the seriousness of the crime and you know
it was commercial importation blah blah blah blah, there was
no opportunity for bar presumption against bail. But at the
same time, I knew I was going to because I
played guilty, going to be serving time and each day
(42:14):
was another day off my sentence from from there on
in for four and a half years. Now, like yourself
three and a half years. It's you can't describe that feeling.
Now if you found guilty, I mean, I'm in a
different sort of completely different sort of thing. You know,
I'm fighting my matters. But if I don't win that,
(42:39):
and you know, the sentencing comes down, it'll be harsh
and just you know, harsh four years. I mean, look, okay,
you did well for your crime. That's not bullshit. I
mean I think the time that you got pretty good time.
Really when you think of the amount of figure, I'm sorry,
not being disrespect put it in perspective, like you know,
(43:01):
like you copped it. You've you've Yeah, I mean, but
the years that you lose in between and then you've
got to go through and your families go through that
whole process then of you not being there, you being
in custody, and basically them providing for you, making sure
you've got adequate money for your buyouts, for phone calls,
(43:24):
for your mail, for all the things that are required
whilst someone's in custody. It's it's a whole new level.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
Yeah, I didn't even realize, like prior to being in
prison how much it would cost my family for me
being there as well.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Particularly on top of your legals.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Yeah, absolutely, particularly my partner you know, who would put
money in my account every week and things like that.
It's there is no way that you can just get
through on your you know, jail wage. If you're working,
like you say, I think you get like one or
two free letters a week. Other than that, your mail's
not free.
Speaker 5 (44:04):
Good luck.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
If all you're prepared to eat is the provided.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
Food little.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
The CSIE train, Yeah, it all smells the same, you
know what.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I'm forty nine and my first jail sentence was at
Long Bay when I was eighteen, and back then they
used to have what they called the barrow, so they'd
push in this big bay Marie and the sweepers had
come up, and you'd line up like you're see in
the movies, and you'd basically be scooped up all handed
your food, which I would much rather eat that way,
(44:43):
And especially if you if you're okay, I'm pretty sweet,
you generally got looked after. And but I know why
they had to change it up because of the old
kitchen rule its and the rest of it, because there
was some fucking good cook ups going on, I can
tell you, and they went off the barrow, but there
was plenty of steak and chicken and eggs. And now
that's sort of sitting in the freeze. I get it.
(45:04):
Cus I costings, you know, went out through the window.
But it really is disgusting, and your buyops aren't much better,
because reality is you live on two minute noodles and tuna.
And if you can cook and create things around that,
with different things, you might get a little bit of
an oreo cheesecake or.
Speaker 5 (45:20):
Yeah, you know, something knows how to make a cheesecake.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Well, if you can get a tin of condensed milk.
I don't think people realize, you know, what's a condensed
milk worth.
Speaker 5 (45:29):
You know, and it's not cheap either, like buyop is
not cheap.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Well it's not. And especially when they restricted to fifty dollars. Yeah,
and I think that isn't that The new South Wales
system now fifty dollars a week.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
It was fifty during COVID they put it up to
one hundred as far as I know, because no one
was getting yeah, so everyone was eating.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Again they can make more money off everyone like that.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
Gosh, I think it's still stated at one hundred, but.
Speaker 5 (46:00):
Yeah, hundred.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Like your toiletries, if you consider your high in a
fifteen twenty bucks a week minimum, you know what I mean?
Like you've got, you know, your your little trinkets that
you might need. You know, you might need a pad.
You might not pad as in female pad. Well for
you women, I suppose yes you would have need pads,
but for the man, you know, writing pads just little
(46:24):
condiments and stuff that make you feel a little bit better.
One hundred dollars doesn't go anywhere. And you know, like
when you're getting charged, you know what is it a
six minute phone call and it's three dollars fifty a
minute or something or something crazy two dollars fifty a minute.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
Yeah, it's that. I mean that in itself is not
cheap either. And yeah, like you say, it's six minutes,
you kind of lose track of how many calls you
go to make, and then the worst thing that happens
is it's Friday afternoon and you realize you've got no
credit on your phone and you're like, that's it.
Speaker 5 (46:54):
I have no phone calls for the whole.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
Weekend because no one is going to put it through now.
So you're waiting till Monday maybe, if not Tuesday, for
the admin staff to put your money back on your you.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Know what they used to have like twenty plates, oh
maybe even longer, so twenty yeah, twenty five years ago.
Remember when the phone cards first come out, the public
telephone cards, you used to go and punch in a
code and then they'd tell you you're amount. So mane
guys in jail would walk around with fifty one hundred
dollars phone cards and that was commodity, that was cash like,
(47:26):
so everyone using it to get on with and to
buy their bibs and sneaky little bits and pieces here,
and then you always knew who was kicking goals because
they were literally stuck to the phone. They didn't how
long they were on it. They had plenty and you know,
like these there was ways around it all with these
these phone cards. Because you didn't have to actually put
(47:49):
it in and have it on a specific number, you
could manipulate the system.
Speaker 4 (47:52):
Okay, gotcha, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
So you know, times definitely have changed now and obviously,
you know, due to security and all that rest of
that sort of stuff. You know, like it is what
it is. It isn't easy for anyone in there, and.
Speaker 4 (48:09):
Yeah for sure, and yeah, like definitely you know, getting
in there and navigating and I would have stood out
like a sore thumb because I think people can you know,
majority of you know, the girls or anyone who's been
in a few times. They can tell that you're a
first timer, that you've never been there, And it's a
(48:31):
hard line between I guess, holding your own and not
being taken advantage of as well.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Do you think devans like from growing up in such
a dangerous country And I feel that this might have
been something that helped you that would have kicked in.
And I know you were young when you left but
still you would have had that embedded into you of
survival and not taking shit and I guess, you know,
(48:59):
being humble but holding your.
Speaker 4 (49:01):
Own Yeah, I think so, you know, like like I've
never been in a fight with a girl before, I've
never had a punch on with anyone, But you have
to be at a spot where you don't take shit
because you know otherwise you're going to could just yeah,
you'll get walking all over if you know, people will
(49:25):
want your buy up or they'll constantly ask you for things,
whatever it is. And I would just try and make
sure that even if I was in a situation where
there were things being talked spoken about, say like in
a group, if I was at work or we were
in a lunch room something like that and there was
you know, drama happening, it's just things like I'd walk
(49:47):
away because I'm like, if you know, something goes down
with this. And then they're all like, Okay, hang on,
let's go back. Who was in the room. Who can
we not trust? Who was perhaps over here?
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Politics? Everyone's a fucking dog, And you give up everyone
because you were there and even though you had nothing, Yeah, yeah,
for sure, cameras that it was done in front of
everything that went down prior to the amount of yelling
and screaming and all the words that the screws heard.
Speaker 5 (50:14):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (50:15):
So it's just like, I guess, be respectful, but you know,
also know that you know you're not there to be
taken advantage of. There was like scenarios where you know,
people would like google UKSE or your name or whatever
with friends or whatever on the phone. So yes, we
(50:38):
don't have access to computers and things like that, but
that doesn't mean that someone won't get on the phone
and be like, oh, hey, what's this person in for.
What's you know the situation.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Did you have any any issues because of the amount
of money that was publicly listed that was you know,
defrauded And I mean obviously that would put a real
big red light over your head that you're someone that
might have something.
Speaker 4 (51:00):
That you know, yeah, I was. I'd had my solicit
had this conversation with me prior to going in, and
he just said, you know, this could be a thing
where people find out about the amount of money so
they think that you have money and whatnot. So I
made an effort not to. I made it a thing
for myself. I guess not to talk about it. I
(51:21):
certainly wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
You know.
Speaker 4 (51:23):
Some people like to go in and brag about what
they've done. Of course that's that was definitely not the
case for me. I wasn't proud of what I'd done anyway,
but I definitely wasn't going to go around telling everybody
as well.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
That concludes part one of Brent's chat with Devin Hammond.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
In part two, we hear more about what happens when
people learn her crimes inside prison the rest of her
life to rehabilitation.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Photo Record, don't try and make you uncomfortable, photo Record.
You ain't trying world and stuff for your photo record
lab on me going all the way. Photo Record, ain't
trying to Lenk No trying to wish stuff for.
Speaker 3 (51:58):
Reged, for fort Reged, the right, for the recon, for
the recon
Approache production.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
For the record.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I don't try and make you uncomfortable for the record.
You ain't trying world and stuff for your right photo
record lab on me going all the way the way
for the record. Ain't trying to link, No trying to
waste stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
For the record, for the record, for the for the record,
for the red for the record record for the record.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Don't try and make you uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Welcome to season seventeen, Episode two of The Clink. What
a fantastic season it has been already with kicked off
with I just want to say a massive thank you
to everybody who does jump over, to all all our
new listeners, thank you very much. We are aiming for
five million downloads this season, and I can guarantee you
it will happen at what stage I'm unsure, but possibly
(01:16):
halfway through. I'm counting on. Big shout out to our sponsor,
Sideway Surf. Without you, we wouldn't be able to do
this on the weekly and deliver you the best stories
without further ado. We have a wonderful lady, Yes, a lady,
another female guest coming to the Clink now, this amazing woman.
(01:36):
And I say amazing because to obviously have gone through
what she's gone through and done what she's done. You've
got to have some sort of brain. And I'm actually
quite intrigued and this story will open up and I'm
sure give you guys a lot more information, but there's
obviously a great story of positivity off the back of it.
Today's guest Devin Hammond. She is somebody whom has not
(02:02):
long been released from jail. She was sentenced to I
believe four four and a half years, with a bottom
sentence of two and a half and all for a
hundred and five million dollar fraud.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Devin, Welcome clean, Thank you, Brent, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Wow. I've met some people in my time, and I've
definitely had some people who have been involved in some
large amounts of money. Over the two hundred guests that
I've had. One hundred and five million is a massive,
massive figure. Wow.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
It's yeah, it's huge, and it definitely wasn't I think
until after I was arrested, and particularly having a look
at the case in the media, that you really begin
to grasp the amount that the fraud ended up being.
And I think one of the the worst things to
(03:07):
happen was the desensitization to that monetary figure throughout the
years of all of this going down. So yes, it's
a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
It is a lot of money. And look, you know,
we don't condone here at the Clink. We're not here
to praise and promote anybody's crimes, as everybody that does know,
these are stories of people's lives. So for the new
listeners out there, don't feel that we are here to
(03:39):
glorify anybody's actions or crimes. As I said, this is
their journey, this is their story, and this is the
Clink where there is no bullshit. We don't pull no punches.
Nothing is scripted, and the people that come on here
genuinely have and do make great changes in their life
to inspire others. Today we will learn how and why
(04:01):
and the great things that Devon is wanting to do
with her life from here on out. And I'm sure
she has some quality tools to be able to give
to our guests, Devin, for many of our guests that
wouldn't have known anything about your matter, especially yourself. I mean,
I'm looking at quite a young woman. I'm not looking
(04:21):
at somebody who is an older woman, And to me,
I'm thinking Okay, you've got to be pretty switched on
to the age that you are and be able to
be in such a sophisticated network of people obviously one
for trust and two intelligent wise. But most of all,
I like our conversation that we had prior to coming
(04:44):
here today about where you on a head with your life,
and I feel that with that intelligence and ability that
you can achieve great things. So that's where we want
to get to in today's story. But first of all,
let's take everybody back to who you are. Where did
it begin, Let's go back to where you grew up?
What it would write?
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Yeah, for sure, Brent, So, I was actually born in Zimbabwe.
So I immigrated to Australia when I was eight years
old in two thousand and one. So I'm not very
old now. No, I'm only thirty one, and I think
looking back now, and this is only upon a huge
(05:24):
amount of reflection, obviously prior to prison while I was
on bail and then being in prison and afterwards as well.
But I think growing up in a country like Zimbabwe,
it definitely contributed to how I was or how I
am as a person in terms of, like you say, ambitious, disciplined.
(05:50):
And I don't know if a lot of people do
know much about Zimbabwe, but basically I went to boarding
school when I was seven years old, so I would
be at school day to Friday and then i'd only
be home on the weekend. And it's super strict over there.
(06:12):
It's very different to most schools, particularly public schools in Australia.
You know, sport is compulsory. You don't have much of
a choice in terms of yeah, not doing sport or
I guess, extra activities outside of school. And there's a
(06:32):
very big difference in sort of like the teacher student
relationships in terms of you just you absolutely don't, you know,
talk back to them. I remember in primary school I
got soap put in my mouth from a teacher because
you know, they don't have the rules and regulations like
(06:55):
what you do in this country.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
It's just.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And so it was definitely something that was putting in Yes, yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
For sure, it's definitely still old school.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
I know my brother got the cane a lot at
boarding school and things like that too, so it's still
sort of it definitely still happens over there, or more
recently than it does here. But yeah, so I immigrated
in two thousand and one with my family, and my
parents did that basically in the hope for a better
life there. There's a lot of civil unrest over there
(07:30):
and still is, and if you are I guess like
a business owner or a farmer in particular things like that,
you kind of had a target on your back in
terms of, you know, people fighting for your land and
things like that. So it's brutal, you know, lots of
violence and murders, and that was kind of creeping into
(07:53):
our lives in certain ways. And my parents definitely went
through similar experiences in terms of violence and threats and
things like that.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So I've actually seen documentaries on the country and their
murder rate is through the roof and there are no
go zones especially, and I like, without getting into any
racial sort of conversation, but obviously within white sort of
going into color areas and stuff like that, a lot
(08:25):
of gang activity and a lot of a lot of
corruption and definitely beyond and I mean for a young woman,
I couldn't imagine how hard that would be to grow
up there for your mummy then you know what I mean,
let alone yourself. That is something that really sort of
(08:45):
I guess hits home when you look at you know
where you've come from, and coming to Australia from somewhere
you know, I guess the only way you'd put it
is in a country of survival.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
And things are just done so differently there in terms
of business, just in terms of the way of life,
it's really different. So thankfully I wasn't too old when
I did move here, so I did a lot of
my schooling in Australia, which for sure helped in terms
(09:20):
of fitting in getting to know the culture better and
just yeah, not being out of school where it was
harder to make friends and things like that. So yeah,
I started, I started primary school here and then kept
going with like my sporting and things like that. I
(09:41):
was a really keen swimmer, so I was a very
competitive swimmer when I was younger, so that, I guess
as well instilled a lot of discipline and drive in me.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
So I was commuting actually from like Woollongong to Sydney
which is about two hours on the train, and in
the corporate world once I graduated and things like that,
and I liked it. But the commuting is like soul
draining it's really difficult. So I call that quits and
(10:16):
then went and just worked locally, and then I ended
up working for my parents. They had an engineering business,
so yeah, that's what I was doing. And then I
was traveling with a girlfriend of mine. We did like
a europe trip and yeah, it was just doing this. Yeah,
life is super normal for me, super normal, And I
(10:38):
think that's one of the biggest things as well. It's like,
not everyone who lands in jail or finds themselves in
the justice system or even a criminal matter. We certainly
don't all come from specific backgrounds or stereotypical backgrounds that
some people may presume we do. But for me, that's
(11:00):
that definitely opened my eyes, you know, during that time
as well. But yeah, so I was working for them
and then unfortunately their business had to go into liquidation.
So one of my girlfriends, she was still working in
the city and she knew of someone who was looking
(11:22):
for someone else to help with with adminted accounts kind
of thing, and that's how I fell into the job
that I did. I was twenty one when I started
working in this job that I was and yeah, it
started off pretty normal, Like I found it difficult to
get my head around. It wasn't sort of processes that
(11:43):
I had come across before, But I guess for me,
I learned pretty quickly and can pick up on things,
and that's sort of what happened. And yeah, basically, the
longer I was there, the better I got at my job,
the more I was trusted, I was privy to different
(12:03):
information as I was there longer, and eventually I basically
knew that hang on a second, this isn't all you
know straighty one eighty or how most people do things,
because sometimes I think to myself, like, you're freaking idiot,
like what were you thinking? How do you not have
(12:26):
a moment that you're like what am I doing? Am
I going ahead with this?
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Or am I not?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
And do I resign or just walk away and just
my business and.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
Just And it was never it was never a situation
of like okay, like this is what's happening. Are you
with us? Or are you're not kind of thing. It
was very much like drips of water in a bucket
and it's getting fuller and fuller, and you know, little
bits here and little bits there, and then next thing
you know, the bucket is full and overflowing and the
(12:57):
AFP and knocking off my door. So I think that's
what made it really difficult not to kind of take
the rose colored glasses off and take a real look
at Hang on a second, what does this mean for me?
And just because you're not the one always making the
(13:17):
decisions and telling everyone else what to do sort of thing.
If you're there and you can see what's going on
and you're still helping the clogs turn so to speak, well,
you correct, you're you're involved.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
And this is this is the thing in Australian law.
You know, many years ago, a get away driver and
a bank robberly a robbery would only be charged if
they were caught with the stolen car and an accessory.
But if a bank robber was to leave that vehicle
and there was two accomplices and there was shots fired
and someone passed in that robbery, there was a murder
(13:59):
charge which everybody would be charged in company. And that's
it goes across the board now across all matters, you know,
like if you're if you are, like yourself, a part
of a chain or a network of persons involved in
any crime, then you know the duty of as they
call it, the duty of care. That wonderful word I'm
(14:22):
sure you heard many times in jail. Yes, not that
there's fucking anything done with it. You have got whatever,
but no, the bottom line being that you are a
part of a criminal organization which then holds you liable
(14:44):
because at some stage you should have taken the initiative
and gone no, this is wrong, or they expect you
to go and give everyone up and be the little mile,
which you did have a mile in your group. And
I believe that you know, for quite a long time
there was surveillance done internally, rugs and cameras, and you
(15:07):
had no idea, did.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
You no no idea?
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Yeah, it's it's crazy looking at it now, and you know,
once your brief of evidence is served and you can
see everything that.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
Has been.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Recorded or yeah, surveillance that whole time, it's pretty eerie.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I think it is, and I think people, yeah, it's
not until you present it with something like that, you know,
when you realize how deep into your own privacy that
things can get and conversations that are totally irrelevant to
what the matter is about, but are very personal within
your own space or partner space or yeah, for sure,
and you know, like it can turn a lot of
(15:48):
people very paranoid to even want to leave the house,
let alone go to the shop, sit in their car,
pick up a phone call.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Definitely massive, massive effect and.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
That definitely had it like it had that effect on me.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Was it your home as well that was bugged or
just your office?
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Not my home, just my office and my phone. I
think some some others maybe had their cars done as well, possibly,
but yeah, for me it was it was my phone
and enough.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
I always thought as well.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
I always wondered if when I was on bail, I
was like, is it now my home? So yeah, like
you say, with the paranoia, that for sure is you know,
it has an effect. For me, it was while I
was on bail, which was for three and a half years,
and then even when I got home and you know,
you're on parole, so you still have all of these
(16:42):
conditions that you have to meet and you know, restrictions
on you. Yeah, you you definitely go the extra mile
not to fuck it up.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
How and I don't want to just sort of ask
the obvious, but how did you feel when things sort
of come to a crunch and you know you're in
cuffs and you're going into custody. I mean, I know
myself and many that would listen to the clink know
that feeling. I never forget the time where I was
(17:12):
arrested for importation in a controlled delivery. You know, I
turned up. I actually had known that it was off,
but I went through with it because it's just what
I had to do to shut it down, so to speak.
And you know, next minute, I'm hog tied in the
middle of winter, facing gravel into the road, pitch black,
and here I am thinking, where the fuck have you
(17:35):
all come from? Because there was no trees, no roofs.
It was an industrial area that was quite ah lo.
It was just flat, you know what I mean, like
industrial block. But these these cars and these lights and
these gorillas just come out of nowhere swinging and mate.
I was just like, fuck, this is this is a
lot and it is It's a it's a smack in
(17:58):
the mouth. It's one that you just go Holy Tom Dooley,
like your whole world just goes shit. I'm you know,
zip up and just suck it up. That's just the
way it goes.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
Yeah, Like the way that I try and describe it,
and this was I could never really put it into
words prior and actually while I was like inside, I
read a lot of books and I was reading a
Lance Armstrong Brooks. So I don't know how credible he
is or not, but anyway, but he was talking about
his cancer diagnosis and the way that he explained it
(18:33):
when he was sitting in his doctor's office and they said,
you know, gave him the results. He said, it feels
like the blood in your body starts turning the other way.
And I was like, that's such a good feeling, like
such a good way to have it. Yeah, because it's
like you're in shock, You're you're like numb, you like,
(18:56):
you know, have those cold sweats kind of thing. And
I just like, he feels so lost, and I think
that's a really good way to describe it. It feels like
the blood starts like flowing in the opposite direction and
your body is just like you literally feel like you're
upside down kind of thing, or like have no idea
what it's.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
It's not a nice feeling. And I've said many will understand,
but I mean for me and I'm sure others, you know,
your first instinct at that stage is I'm arrested. I'm
not going home and in trouble. So I'll just shut
the fucking mouth and just go through the process. I mean,
I've never put in a statement never, I just refuse it.
(19:35):
It's just something that you know, I don't want to
talk to you. You've arrested me. I'll see in court.
That's it.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
Yeah, I think that's such like you. It's such a
thing that you like see in movies. You know, you
have the right to remain silence, but you're not really
listening because you're just thinking what the fuck with the
fuck and to actually and like for someone like me
who I've never had any like running with the police
before or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
So and it was the AFP, and it was the AFP,
which I had the same thing, like they're full on.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
They are full on, definitely, and you know, thankfully I
could speak to my solicitor prior who obviously they you know,
advise you don't say anything at that time. But yeah,
for people to actually realize at that point that you
do not have to say anything and that you know
you it's best not to, but you're not thinking straight.
(20:30):
So yeah, it's like it's it's so scary and foreign
and unknown.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Did you have any did you have any like and
I know you obviously well I'm not going to say
I know, because that's not something that I should say,
But did you know the amounts that were coming through,
like to that figure of around about one hundred million?
Was that something called within the MILLI multi multimillions.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
I within the multi multi millions. Yes, I would record,
you know, figures and stuff like that because I'd be
asked for them and it was just easier for me
to kind of keep on top of things. So yes,
I knew it was a lot.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
And how and how does someone like yourself? And please
feel free at any stage just to say to me,
I don't want to answer, and I'm not going to
put you in a position. I know that we've dealt
with this and this is now moving forward, so I'm
hopefully you're okay to speak and be open. We don't
need to know names and places and times, but you know,
like when we're talking about that sort of money, Like,
(21:28):
I'll be straight up, if I was in a position
and I knew someone was taking one hundred and five
million dollars and I was in some way, I guess
at first you didn't really have a chance to say
that you didn't want to be involved because you were
just automatically brought into it. It was a part of
your job description, I guess, wasn't it. But knowing that
(21:50):
you know, and look, people are going to say, ah, yeah,
well that's wrong and you should just put your hand
up and yeah, okay. Look for the people out there
that are on that path and haven't got any I
guess experience of being put in that position or lived
a life where you know opportunity sometimes it's it weighs
greater than you know. I guess the honesty policy. I
(22:14):
know many years ago for me that if I knew
someone was earning one hundred and five million, I'd be
taking a chunk of that myself, especially if I was
dragging me through it. How did you feel knowing that
you know this money was being made by a group
or a much bigger sort of picture, and you're just
a piece in that puzzle. That's and I realize, and
(22:37):
quote me if I'm wrong that you did make something
from it, and you know, look, it's up to you
if you want to disclose that.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I've seen what I've seen, but I'm not going to
make those figures announce. That's up to you, but I
don't think it was anywhere near enough to be doing,
to be doing four years or two and you know,
for someone to knowingly taking advantage of you, which I
think that's the bottom line. These people above you obviously
(23:05):
knew and were well and truly involved. I mean what
it was there that was the head of the tax
department's son or something involved in a lawyer like These
are prominent educated people who knew exactly what they were doing.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
And I think that's why I kept going as well
because or didn't leave, was because I trusted these people
in terms of their positions, their qualifications.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, that's what about to say with the people that
you're working around, obviously very intellectual, did you feel that
you guys maybe were a step ahead and that this
is possibly something that would be worth doing.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah, I think I trusted the fact that, you know,
if it was said that this is what the plan is,
this is how it's going to work out, that that's
how it would work out for sure. So and certainly
in terms of money and things like that, I was.
I was on a good wage, that's for sure. But
(24:06):
as you say, it was nowhere near anything you know
that some others benefited from and it was absolutely not
worth the heartache and time and struggle of going to prison.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
For even legal costs. Your legal costs would be it
would have been three times more than what you.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Were one hundred that's definitely you know fact as well.
My legal fees were you know, paid for privately. And
to put that kind of stress on my family that
certainly wasn't me who could come up with the money
because my bank accounts were frozen. I couldn't do anything,
my assets were gone. So to I guess hold that
(24:49):
guilt and shame to you know, for the fact that
my family and my partner and extended family had to
help me immensely with that is really it's difficult because
it doesn't just become about you, it's you know that
it's so much, so many more people in the picture.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, And I think that that's something that we all
forget when we're in that position and we see that opportunity.
Sometimes we're blinded by the domino effect. And you know,
I think it's any in human nature to take opportunities
and you know, test waters and look, I don't care
what anybody says everybody's got something in their closet, you
know where the people want to admit it, and people
(25:30):
want to sit there and be judgmental, Go ahead and judge,
But I reckon when you look in the mirror, you
know damn well that there's there's things there that you
know you hide from the world, and look, you know,
that's life. People are always going to be pointing the
finger or judgment. I mean, hey, I've been on bail
and I still am for four and a half years
from something sixteen years ago that I had nothing to
(25:51):
do with, you know, so you know, without going into
those details. It a little bit over the media very
soon because I'm going back to court in April again.
But yeah, you know, we're talking hundreds of thousands of
dollars in legal costs over that time, countless hours of
loss and disappointment for my children, for my family, the
destruction of a relationship like so much.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Can even imagine one hundred percent like having to go
through this while you have children who you know are
still in your care, who you're still care or not,
you know, whether they're adults or still you know, living
with you. That would be so difficult, and we put
off having kids for seven years because it was just like,
(26:34):
there's no way that I can do this while you know,
going through this huge amount of uncertainty. And I always
felt so hot, like so horrible for the women inside
who were missing babies and young kids.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
And isn't it funny, Like I don't think people realize
and I'm sure you can talk about this. I think
it's something we should touch on from a female's point
of view, especially someone who has experienced jail, that you know,
women who are pregnant or in the early stages of
pregnancy whilst in a detached from their babies within weeks,
(27:11):
is in an or it's a month.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
It can be yeah, like not even it can be.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
It's actually heartbreaking and so sad what women have to
endure whilst falling pregnant or being pregnant and in custody.
I mean, how was that to know and see as
a woman, Because I feel that it's important that we
share that with our listeners out there to understand.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
You know, I know I spent time with the girl
and she I think she maybe got like a few
days with her baby when she had her inside, and
so when she was leaving, she she didn't even know
her baby that she was going out to and same
with her baby not knowing her, you know, and they
(27:56):
can be three five years old, whatever the sentence is.
You know, they've missed all of that. And I know
that even in the New South Wales prison systems there
were some facilities for women and their children, but even
those were getting shut down and there were no resources
(28:17):
for them. And it's just it's a fact of the
matter that we need to be looking after these women
with their children. Yes, it's not an ideal situation, but
it isn't.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Look I'm not sitting here saying everybody should feel sorry
for you know. I mean, we all make choices and
we all know where it's going to end up when
it comes tom we got to take ownership for our actions.
And that's not what this is about. This is you know,
talking about I guess humanity, you know, like I know,
for a factor, as a male, I was, I really
jacked up. I ended up in Segro for months on end.
(28:55):
And during that time, my partner, she was four months
pregnant when I was arrested, and I was looking at
double figures. So you know, my my romand time was
fighte full on. I was not an approachable person, not
at all. I was very, very aggressive, very disruptive in
the system, which did me no favors by any means
(29:16):
on either side, because I mean, you don't go in
there the wind and you don't upset the screws because
next minute the squad's coming in and you're getting turned
upside down. Next we minuk, you're sitting in see grow
and no one gives a fuck because you're getting stripped.
The screws get stripped from there. From the main you're
the last people to get fed, last person to get
your shower, last person to get your phone calls. So
you are basically left with nothing. And I didn't find
(29:40):
out immediately when my son was born, and I missed
out on the first three and a half years of
his life. So I can relate to, you know, coming out,
and I vowed, I asked not to have any visits
for the last I was there on the Gold Coast
and I was down in Bathist for the last months,
so I said, no, no visits, like it's not right
(30:01):
to the kids. When I was at Empty and Graft
and you know, the closer sort of places that was manageable,
but once you sort of hit Sydney and then south
of Sydney or west, you've you know, it's not fair
to the family. So for me, as somebody who understands
as a male, what it was like to have that
detachment and then coming home years later, it's like, who
(30:23):
are you? Who are you to tell me what to do?
Who are you to ask for a hug and a
kiss and that that natural connection where you know, you
embrace that moment you hold each other. It was very
very very hard, very hard. So I couldn't imagine from
a woman's point of a mother who's given birth to
the child and the child being removed how detrimental that
(30:46):
it beat it both yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
One hundred percent and very sympathetic about it then, but
even more so now that I am a mother and
now I'm just like, oh okay, now I really am
just cannot cannot even get how them as mothers can
cope in that situation. And when you know, if you
are in at the time COVID lockdowns or you're still
(31:10):
going through induction, or how.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Bad was that I come in on the back and
I come in and got remanded on the back end
of it, and it was just we're on a twenty
and four.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
What a shit show.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
We were let out for four hours, and it varied
depending on the landing and the screws to whether or
not you've got the top landing on the bottom landing,
And each week it would rotate, so you might get
four hours after lunch or four hours in the morning.
But either way you were down twenty hours a day.
So it was worse than sego and two out in
a one out cell.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
So when I went in, I was did you just
say two out in a one out?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yep? And your head's next to the next to the toilet.
Literally your head or your feet would be touching the toilet. Wow,
that's exactly how it was.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
We when I went in, we had to do two
weeks of COVID quarantine and majority of that time, or
at least, yeah, half of it, I spent in a
four out with four girls, and that.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Was you can't They won't let you out one boy
one either, because you've got to all go in at
the same and come out at the same exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
They keep you. You know, you all came in the
same date, so you stay together.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Oh, you're watching everybody else come out and go out
of the yard and start to migrate back into the
main and it's like.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
And that was only for an hour a day then, so,
like you say, it's basically like being in Segro. And
then I did get COVID while I was in more
towards the end of my sentence, but by this stage
I was in a transitional center and the rules were
if you got COVID, you went back to Malawa or
silver Water as most people know it.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
So then from transition, I think basically a Segro environment.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
One hundred percent, And that was we weren't allowed out,
and I got stuck on silver Water for fifteen days.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
With a penandole once a day.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Oh if that? If that?
Speaker 4 (33:00):
And there was one of the screws was telling me
she had seen some of the men at Mubrc or
silver Water. They were in COVID isolation there and some
of them were getting stuck there for like a month,
and she just said, these are like, you know, grown men,
some of the toughest men around who I just by
the end of it, they're like in tears because they're
(33:21):
just it's driving you mental. You have no answers, you're
just stuck there. Waiting because you're in COVID quarantine.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
They want no communication even even yelling between the cells
like you know, and you sort of got that lockdown.
Like if you come off your backyard it's in segra,
you've got you can't see anyone, but you've got your
little bars off the back of those tiny little yards.
You can at least throw a line, you can cook up,
you can pass drinks, food, whatever, you can some help
to someone, you know, yeah, interact with your mirror, you
(33:47):
know whatever. But that right there, that whole COVID thing
was just.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
Yeah, so hard.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Yeah, so that we just need to be looking into
again the resources for the mothers and children. I was
at Emy Planes and they had one for a while there.
They ended up closing that down they last I know,
that whole you know, facility got closed down. So there's
not really a lot available for the women in New
(34:18):
South Wales at all anymore. But it was it was
a really good setup for the women with their children
while they were there. But it just seems to be
like they just cut cut, cut here, there and everywhere.
And you know, as much as people might think, well
if she was in prison for a reason, then you know,
(34:40):
that's too bad kind of thing. But as you know,
so many of of us know, or people who are
trying to advocates, well, what are we setting up? What
are we setting up? You know for these children who
are entering.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Those it becomes it becomes a return. Well, the revolving door.
That's that's the only word for it. It's a door
that rops and constantly in out, in out, and it
becomes general rational.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
And that's what I learned.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
You do you see, you know, like I I even
during living life as a as a biker, you know
what I mean, a one percenter for many many years,
only fifteen years, I never brought it technically into my home,
you know what I mean. Club life was club life
because I never wanted to see my children go down
those paths. They were my choices through the upbringing that
(35:30):
I had. It's just it's the path that I laid on.
You know, I didn't. I did know better in the end, yes,
but I didn't. I didn't have a lot of choices
when I was youngest. Anyway, that become what I classed
as a family because I had no family. But I
never wanted that for my children. And I'm so blessed
and grateful for my four children, whom three are pretty
well on their way to well twenty six and nearly
(35:52):
eighteen and fort and so they're well and truly up there.
And my youngest as young, but you think he's old.
But the bottom line then is they're all doing very well.
So I've always said that my wrongs are their rights,
and I'm very proud of that because they're not naive,
they're not blinded, and they're not silly. They're know right
from wrong, and they understand and they see also to
the way the world is for what it is. You know,
(36:14):
if somebody's down on their luck or they're in trouble,
they know, they're very aware of their surroundings. And they've watched,
you know, myself live with mental health issues too. Then
obviously you know, doing some wonderful things and helping others
grow from their you know, their worst times. And I've
always been very upfront and I think that you know,
(36:36):
we can help our children and protect our children, give
them better tools and ways through our own experiences. I've
never understood a second and third generational I guess criminal
family or member of a club, or a father and
son KOI, or mother and daughter KOI. I've just like
I couldn't think of anything work, to be honest with you,
(36:58):
And I even know people out there that you know,
literally there's one I won't go into too much, but anyway,
a bloke I'd known a long long time that was
a great bloke, never in trouble, got into a certain
way of life, made a bad choice, ended up with
a really bad habit, which a lot of them do.
His sons went from great young men to one now
doing seven years and he's only in his early twenties
(37:19):
while his dad's doing another another breach of parole and
doing three or four on top of what he's already done.
Like it's just heartbreaking, and I.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
Just had to find Yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
How could you ask that of your kids? You know,
like they deserve a life. Well, what we do and
how we choose that's on us, but not.
Speaker 4 (37:35):
Actually sure, Yeah, for sure, And I think that's like,
I think that's so good that you know they can
see both sides to it, and like you say, they
can recognize if someone is having a hard time or
you know, it's going through something and knowing that they're
still like yourself are probably a really good person, you know,
(38:00):
and just and knowing that you know, people can have
difficult times, tough situations, and the reality is we're all
going to go through those, and everyone's privy to a
tough time, and it's you know, it's guaranteed, but that
you know, life isn't just how you want it, or
(38:21):
you know some of the privilege that you know a
lot of us do have. And and to be honest,
that I had before I experienced any of this, for sure,
I was like super ignorant to it. And I think
that's why I'm really, i guess passionate about talking about
it now, is because I was so ignorant to the
(38:41):
lives that some people have lived, the places that they've
come from, the environments that they've been brought up in,
and how different it is to for example, a family
like mine, where I was, you know, only ever encouraged
and loved and you know, given all the good things.
But you know that's not the case for everybody. And
(39:04):
I think, you know, to understand that those sorts of
people need to be given a chance, need to be
told they're worth something, and then for people like me
to also learn, you know, what it is to live
in life that is different to yours and give that
people that opportunity.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah, I love that. I want to ask a little
bit more, just touching back on your experience prior to jail,
because I think it's important you know the lead up
and also to your experience, because you know, looking at you,
I would assume that you probably had a little bit
of a rough time at the start, and hey, I
(39:46):
mean this is the fact. Is what people need to
know because it is an ugly fucking place and it
doesn't matter who you are, how much money you've got,
how good looking you are, how fat, how skinny you small,
how big your boobs, your bum, whatever the health or
don't got, you are going to be vulnerable. And this
is the reality of you know, people falling into this space,
(40:08):
making mistakes or wrong choices and then ending up in cast.
Right your process, did you plead not guilty or did
you plead guilty?
Speaker 4 (40:18):
So I pled guilty in my case.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
And it still took years for it to go through.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
It still took years. A lot of that did have
to do with COVID. By the time that I that
I did do that, you know, my sentencing date was
changed probably at least three times. And you know, as
you would know, one change can be four months down
the track kind of thing. So so yeah, I was.
(40:44):
I was on bail for three and a half years,
and at some point I can't remember exactly it was,
you know, back and forth with my solicitor, embarrassaor and
looking at the evidence and and you know, working it
all out and and yeah, I made the decision to
plead guilty. And for me, like bail was worse now
(41:11):
that now I know, bail was worse than jail because
the feeling of the unknown. And you know, as I've said,
I've never experienced jail before. I don't really know anyone
that had been in.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
You know, it don't give you any reduction. They'll give
you any reduction because of your time on bail.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
Not because of my time on bail.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
No, isn't It isn't that. And this is something that
people don't understand unless you're in custody and you're on
remand you know, sometimes and I'm grateful for when I
did get arrested back in two thousand and nine, because
I was looking at double figures and ended up with
the six, which was which was a great number for
that at the time, So you know, I'm definitely not
(41:53):
whinging about it. But what I did realize was the
time that I was there and I was bail refused
because of the seriousness of the crime and you know
it was commercial importation blah blah blah blah, there was
no opportunity for bar presumption against bail. But at the
same time, I knew I was going to because I
played guilty, going to be serving time and each day
(42:14):
was another day off my sentence from from there on
in for four and a half years. Now, like yourself
three and a half years. It's you can't describe that feeling.
Now if you found guilty, I mean, I'm in a
different sort of completely different sort of thing. You know,
I'm fighting my matters. But if I don't win that,
(42:39):
and you know, the sentencing comes down, it'll be harsh
and just you know, harsh four years. I mean, look, okay,
you did well for your crime. That's not bullshit. I
mean I think the time that you got pretty good time.
Really when you think of the amount of figure, I'm sorry,
not being disrespect put it in perspective, like you know,
(43:01):
like you copped it. You've you've Yeah, I mean, but
the years that you lose in between and then you've
got to go through and your families go through that
whole process then of you not being there, you being
in custody, and basically them providing for you, making sure
you've got adequate money for your buyouts, for phone calls,
(43:24):
for your mail, for all the things that are required
whilst someone's in custody. It's it's a whole new level.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
Yeah, I didn't even realize, like prior to being in
prison how much it would cost my family for me
being there as well.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Particularly on top of your legals.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Yeah, absolutely, particularly my partner you know, who would put
money in my account every week and things like that.
It's there is no way that you can just get
through on your you know, jail wage. If you're working,
like you say, I think you get like one or
two free letters a week. Other than that, your mail's
not free.
Speaker 5 (44:04):
Good luck.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
If all you're prepared to eat is the provided.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
Food little.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
The CSIE train, Yeah, it all smells the same, you
know what.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I'm forty nine and my first jail sentence was at
Long Bay when I was eighteen, and back then they
used to have what they called the barrow, so they'd
push in this big bay Marie and the sweepers had
come up, and you'd line up like you're see in
the movies, and you'd basically be scooped up all handed
your food, which I would much rather eat that way,
(44:43):
And especially if you if you're okay, I'm pretty sweet,
you generally got looked after. And but I know why
they had to change it up because of the old
kitchen rule its and the rest of it, because there
was some fucking good cook ups going on, I can
tell you, and they went off the barrow, but there
was plenty of steak and chicken and eggs. And now
that's sort of sitting in the freeze. I get it.
(45:04):
Cus I costings, you know, went out through the window.
But it really is disgusting, and your buyops aren't much better,
because reality is you live on two minute noodles and tuna.
And if you can cook and create things around that,
with different things, you might get a little bit of
an oreo cheesecake or.
Speaker 5 (45:20):
Yeah, you know, something knows how to make a cheesecake.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Well, if you can get a tin of condensed milk.
I don't think people realize, you know, what's a condensed
milk worth.
Speaker 5 (45:29):
You know, and it's not cheap either, like buyop is
not cheap.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Well it's not. And especially when they restricted to fifty dollars. Yeah,
and I think that isn't that The new South Wales
system now fifty dollars a week.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
It was fifty during COVID they put it up to
one hundred as far as I know, because no one
was getting yeah, so everyone was eating.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Again they can make more money off everyone like that.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
Gosh, I think it's still stated at one hundred, but.
Speaker 5 (46:00):
Yeah, hundred.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Like your toiletries, if you consider your high in a
fifteen twenty bucks a week minimum, you know what I mean?
Like you've got, you know, your your little trinkets that
you might need. You know, you might need a pad.
You might not pad as in female pad. Well for
you women, I suppose yes you would have need pads,
but for the man, you know, writing pads just little
(46:24):
condiments and stuff that make you feel a little bit better.
One hundred dollars doesn't go anywhere. And you know, like
when you're getting charged, you know what is it a
six minute phone call and it's three dollars fifty a
minute or something or something crazy two dollars fifty a minute.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
Yeah, it's that. I mean that in itself is not
cheap either. And yeah, like you say, it's six minutes,
you kind of lose track of how many calls you
go to make, and then the worst thing that happens
is it's Friday afternoon and you realize you've got no
credit on your phone and you're like, that's it.
Speaker 5 (46:54):
I have no phone calls for the whole.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
Weekend because no one is going to put it through now.
So you're waiting till Monday maybe, if not Tuesday, for
the admin staff to put your money back on your you.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Know what they used to have like twenty plates, oh
maybe even longer, so twenty yeah, twenty five years ago.
Remember when the phone cards first come out, the public
telephone cards, you used to go and punch in a
code and then they'd tell you you're amount. So mane
guys in jail would walk around with fifty one hundred
dollars phone cards and that was commodity, that was cash like,
(47:26):
so everyone using it to get on with and to
buy their bibs and sneaky little bits and pieces here,
and then you always knew who was kicking goals because
they were literally stuck to the phone. They didn't how
long they were on it. They had plenty and you know,
like these there was ways around it all with these
these phone cards. Because you didn't have to actually put
(47:49):
it in and have it on a specific number, you
could manipulate the system.
Speaker 4 (47:52):
Okay, gotcha, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
So you know, times definitely have changed now and obviously,
you know, due to security and all that rest of
that sort of stuff. You know, like it is what
it is. It isn't easy for anyone in there, and.
Speaker 4 (48:09):
Yeah for sure, and yeah, like definitely you know, getting
in there and navigating and I would have stood out
like a sore thumb because I think people can you know,
majority of you know, the girls or anyone who's been
in a few times. They can tell that you're a
first timer, that you've never been there, And it's a
(48:31):
hard line between I guess, holding your own and not
being taken advantage of as well.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Do you think devans like from growing up in such
a dangerous country And I feel that this might have
been something that helped you that would have kicked in.
And I know you were young when you left but
still you would have had that embedded into you of
survival and not taking shit and I guess, you know,
(48:59):
being humble but holding your.
Speaker 4 (49:01):
Own Yeah, I think so, you know, like like I've
never been in a fight with a girl before, I've
never had a punch on with anyone, But you have
to be at a spot where you don't take shit
because you know otherwise you're going to could just yeah,
you'll get walking all over if you know, people will
(49:25):
want your buy up or they'll constantly ask you for things,
whatever it is. And I would just try and make
sure that even if I was in a situation where
there were things being talked spoken about, say like in
a group, if I was at work or we were
in a lunch room something like that and there was
you know, drama happening, it's just things like I'd walk
(49:47):
away because I'm like, if you know, something goes down
with this. And then they're all like, Okay, hang on,
let's go back. Who was in the room. Who can
we not trust? Who was perhaps over here?
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Politics? Everyone's a fucking dog, And you give up everyone
because you were there and even though you had nothing, Yeah, yeah,
for sure, cameras that it was done in front of
everything that went down prior to the amount of yelling
and screaming and all the words that the screws heard.
Speaker 5 (50:14):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (50:15):
So it's just like, I guess, be respectful, but you know,
also know that you know you're not there to be
taken advantage of. There was like scenarios where you know,
people would like google UKSE or your name or whatever
with friends or whatever on the phone. So yes, we
(50:38):
don't have access to computers and things like that, but
that doesn't mean that someone won't get on the phone
and be like, oh, hey, what's this person in for.
What's you know the situation.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Did you have any any issues because of the amount
of money that was publicly listed that was you know,
defrauded And I mean obviously that would put a real
big red light over your head that you're someone that
might have something.
Speaker 4 (51:00):
That you know, yeah, I was. I'd had my solicit
had this conversation with me prior to going in, and
he just said, you know, this could be a thing
where people find out about the amount of money so
they think that you have money and whatnot. So I
made an effort not to. I made it a thing
for myself. I guess not to talk about it. I
(51:21):
certainly wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
You know.
Speaker 4 (51:23):
Some people like to go in and brag about what
they've done. Of course that's that was definitely not the
case for me. I wasn't proud of what I'd done anyway,
but I definitely wasn't going to go around telling everybody
as well.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
That concludes part one of Brent's chat with Devin Hammond.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
In part two, we hear more about what happens when
people learn her crimes inside prison the rest of her
life to rehabilitation.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Photo Record, don't try and make you uncomfortable, photo Record.
You ain't trying world and stuff for your photo record
lab on me going all the way. Photo Record, ain't
trying to Lenk No trying to wish stuff for.
Speaker 3 (51:58):
Reged, for fort Reged, the right, for the recon, for
the recon
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