February 24, 2025 • 48 mins
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In this episode of The Clink, We hear Part 2 of Brent's chat with Devyn Hammond, who shares her remarkable journey from Zimbabwe to Australia and her involvement in a significant fraud case that led to her imprisonment. Devyn Hammond and Brent discuss the complexities of financial knowledge in high-stakes environments, the trust placed in individuals within these systems, and the ripple effects of legal troubles on families.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Yeah, Approache production, Photo Record. I don't trying to make
you uncomfortable. Photo Record. You ain't trying world any stuff
(00:28):
for your photo record lab on me going all the
way photo record. Ain't trying to link. No trying to
waste your stuff for the record photo record, photo Poto
record for the right for the record record photo record,
(00:50):
don't try and make you uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Welcome back to the Clink and part two of Brand's
chat with Devin Hammond.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
We'll kick things off with her sharing her experience inside
some of Australia's toughest female prisoners.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Did you have any any issues because of the amount
of money that was publicly listed that was, you know,
defrauded And I mean obviously that would put a real
big red light over your head that you're someone that
might have something that you.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Know, Yeah, I was. I'd had my solicitor had had
this conversation with me prior to going in and he
just said, you know, this could be a thing where
people find out about the amount of money so they
think that you have money and whatnot. So I made
an effort not to I made it a thing for myself.
I guess not to talk about it. I certainly wouldn't.
(01:37):
You know, some people like to go in and brag
about what they've done. Of course, that's that was definitely
not the case for me. I wasn't proud of what
I'd done anyway, but I definitely wasn't going to go
around telling everybody as well.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
And it didn't come out it did It.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Did because that's what happened with me is someone got
on the phone and you know, said, what's to go here.
People compare sentences and lengths of time and things like
that too, so.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
They're not stupid because you've got to remember, but that's
all they do is sit there day in and day out,
you know, play puzzles in their own mind, and it's
occupying their brains. So you know, being able to sort
of pull apart somebody else's strand and look. In some
cases you need to do it because you need to
know who you're around. And there are some really shit
people in there for someds horrendous crimes, and some of
(02:28):
them come into the main and they'll hide in the
main until they get found out and then they get
chopped into and they get sent So I mean, you know,
you don't know, you just.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Don't know, no you don't. Yeah, so there was a
girl who'd done that and I just, you know, was
basically like, I don't appreciate it. If there were things
that I wanted to talk about or whatever, I would
do So if not, I just don't want to. But
if you want to know something, come and talk to
me about it rather than everyone else first. I guess
(02:59):
there were kind of situations like that. You know, people
ask you whether you like you use, and I kind
of found that helpful to people not you know, knowing that.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I didn't because they step off.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
And yeah, they don't bother with you, or when there's
fights and this you know, had happened before as well.
There were issues in the house, shit was stolen, so
then everyone's going crazy and they know whether you're being
legit or not whether you say you use or not,
like they're going to know if you're lying or you're not.
So yeah, it was like I don't need to worry
(03:33):
about you because I know that you don't. So I
always say, if you're not into other girls and you're
not into drugs, you should be fine because I think
they're the main things that everyone fights over.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
And isn't that funny? Because you know, in the male
male system, obviously the drugs are a massive issue, but
it's it's definitely not a male on male sort of stuff.
But you know, like just touching on that, it actually
is a big thing in the women's system, isn't.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
It what it is?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
It is huge. Lamanships call it gay in jail and normally, yeah,
it's a thing. It's a thing.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
It is. It's a thing where they never are or
never were on the outside. And then I guess, you know,
people are just wanting that companionship and I think that's
really all that comes down to. And you know so
many women turn gay in jail. Yeah, but it can
it can cause a lot of drama.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Just on your experience, and you know, like I don't
want to keep sort of going down because I mean,
this is your story and there's a lot more to
you than obviously, but it is important you you're going
for sentencing, and I would was it the Downing Center
district or do you go Supreme?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
No? I went Supreme.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Wow, So that's that's not a good feeling coming. So
you're not in custody, everybody's there sentencing day, obviously, did
you have a sentence indication or an agreement that if
you played guilty that you would only do a certain
amount of time or was it just.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Nothing I had? Oh wow, yes, so I had. I
had a two day sentence, and it was possible that
the judge would have revoked my bail after the first day,
or if he hadn't have made the decision on the
first day, which is what would what happened. But thankfully
he didn't revoke my bail. So I went home that night.
(05:20):
So I knew that the following day was like D Day.
That was it. There. I was not coming home. I
knew it was going to be custodial. I just didn't
know how long.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
How did you feel, though, I mean, look, I couldn't imagine.
I have to admit I I'd never liked once going
into court for sentencing. I always found being in custody
at the time of sentencing was never easy, but easier. Yeah,
you're already there, You're already kicking your you know, you know,
you're already in the realm of things. Your your mind's different. Yeah,
(05:51):
but you know that, I know that uneasy feeling when
you're sitting there in the box and you're listening to
your sentence get handed down, even the words you know,
two year sentence, you know, suspended and it's like, oh fuck,
now five years with the suspend it and good behavior
and you know that moment of like my last one
(06:13):
was I was it was a technicality, so I had
to get the rising of the court and to do that,
they had to sentence me on the spot to custody
whilst the judge and I were in the court and
everybody whilst I was in the court. I was sentenced
in custody. Once the judge had left her residing chair,
then I was automatically releasing. The sentence was done, but
(06:36):
then there was a new suspended sentence on top of that. Right,
that was freaky because it was just like, yeah, what's
going on. Yeah, you know, one minute you're sort of
thinking I'm not going to do the next minute you're
told you're in custody. Next minute you hold that you're
free to go. And it is it's a mind boggling feeling.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
It is, for sure. But yeah, like so surreal saying
goodbye to your friends and family before you all walk
into the courtroom. Because once you've given your sentence, that's it.
And you know, you look at everyone before that door
closs and it's just like what the hell Like, it's
just it's kind of like, is this really my life?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I think the worst feeling when they turn you around
and they literally walk you out that little door the corridor,
and you know, you go fucking you go into a maze.
And that's why a lot of people won't know is
from a courtroom you're taken into, it's not just a
cell directly behind your It's a full maze.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Of lists in the city, under the ground, and you're
just your head's just spinning. You have no idea or
your bearings, and until you come out in the truck
and you're out the little people trying to where you are.
It's crazy, it is.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
It is. So yeah, they took me down and and
then I went from there to the Downing Center to
wait forever everybody there to finish up for the day.
And then from there we went to Surrey Hills. But
I just remember it wasn't like a proper prison truck.
It was one of usually like the medical transfer bands
where you're in like this tiny, tiny box and if
(08:18):
you suffer from claustrophobia, like you're gone because this thing is.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I was at one of the vans, one of the
actually mans. Yeah, the windowed out sliding. You hop into
this tiny little silver box, shut the door in, then
they shut the door behind us.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Literally if you're like, knees are almost touching your teeth, yeap.
And then I went to Surrey Hills. I spent a
night there and almost to the next one. I think
we left Surrey Hills at like ten o'clock the following
night to go to Malowa. And there were a couple
of dolls.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, wait on the trucks to come all in from
the four yep.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
They were waiting obviously for court to finish, sort everybody out,
figure out where everyone's going. And then we were on
the truck to Malowa. And yeah, even even there, like
by the time you go through reception and get all
of your stuff and and see the nurse and everything,
it was.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I have a pie waiting for you. Was it hot
dog sausage rolls?
Speaker 4 (09:16):
I can't remember. I think it was like sandwiches. Yeah,
you prefer a sandwich, right, cold pies and brew It
was definitely pastries at Surrey Hills though, because it was
the weekend, so you know, the weekend is past trees only,
absolutely terrible. And I remember being in my first cell
(09:38):
in Blahlah blah, and the stainless steel it like it
just I could just smell blood, That's what it smelled
like that like metallic key smell.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
And yeah, I think the worst part is too, when
you're given an allocated if it's you know, well, if
you're going into reception, you generally got a seally that's
coming as well, and it's in a putrid cell that
hasn't been properly Yeah. Yeah, you're looking at everything gone.
How I'm not even going to use that toilet basically
sleep on that mattress like you've got no pillow. You
(10:10):
got none your pillow as you jump up because you've
got to roll it up and stick it in your
case with your your plastic bowl and fork and stin.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Yeah. And I remember, like my ears would be really
sore in the morning from like you know, sleeping on
something so hard.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
I remember one night in silver Water, like I was
so cold and I just couldn't get warm, and it
was my feet that were cold, and I had socks on,
so I would like get out of bed and turn
the hot water on I mean at least we had
hot water, but turn the hot water on and just
like run it over my feet for a bit just
to warm them up because I just couldn't fall asleep
it was so freaking cold. Yeah, but there's all these
(10:48):
different things and tricks and ways that you like learn
to make your bed even so that you're warm or
as warm as possible.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
It's crazy. Oh look, you know it's once again. You know,
we're not here to We're here to deter. I think
that's the word. And you know, we can share these
truths about what it actually is and what it is
that people actually go through because unless you've been there,
but like there's so much bullshit out there and so
many stories, and it's it's not as it seems. It
(11:18):
can be worse and sometimes not as bad. You know,
it just depends. But you know it's important to be
able to have it from different perspectives. Obviously. You know,
a female is very different going into custody than a male.
I mean, male is very intimidating and overwhelming because everyone's
eyeball and everyone everybody's waiting for someone to say something,
(11:41):
everyone's on edge. Everybody's just full on fueled with emotion,
which I've no doubt's the same as woman. But you know,
maybe a lot of women licking their lips coming, you
know what I mean, Like I can assure that shit
doesn't happen in the men. It's more what's he got?
What am I taking? You know? Like, yeah, so you
let's talk about a little bit more about you know,
(12:02):
your time, and just a brief over because it will
two years of your two and a half years.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Ah. I spent maybe three or four weeks in silver Water.
I guess the good thing was I was already sentenced
so they could classify me. So I got classified as
a C two. From there, I went to de Winnea.
I spent a few months in de Winnia, and I
didn't mind it there. I mean, in terms of jail.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I couldn't stand it. I preferred the main I think
that you had a bit of better structure in the
way that you're able to do your jail and just
in and out short days, you know what I mean,
Like you learn about politics and the style and the
way it's all run. The days are long. You're in
a group, you've always fucking drama.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Yeah. When I moved to smaller jails for sure. That
was like you can see why there are certain jail rules,
and they kind of have to be there for a
reason because when you get into these smaller centers, everyone
knows everybody else's business. No one minds their own business.
And because there's not I guess, you know, the jail
(13:05):
politics and rules and things like that that go on
in these smaller centers, everyone just gets it gets worse,
like it's super bitchy and stuff. But yeah, I guess
for me, with my time, it was super important for
me to just do as much as I could throughout
my day. So like I always made sure that I worked.
I tried to do jobs that were labor intensive. I
(13:26):
started in the library. That was too long of a
day for me, so I moved into buyops and I
ah enjoyed that. Yeah, I went into buyops and then yeah,
like after work, I would just go for a run
or train with a couple of girls who would train
and I guess just try and like wear myself out
(13:47):
as much as possible so that at night you could sleep.
Basically that was always my main goal. And obviously just
to stay fit. I you know, did that while I
was on bail. It's always been a thing for me anyway,
so it helps with me mentally more than anything else.
So yeah, made sure that I trained. I did a
lot of running when I was at De Winea because
it's big enough for you to be able to do that.
(14:10):
And then I moved out to EMU Planes and that
was again it was different because I think at that stage,
like the most amount of girls that were in it
at that time, we're thirty five, and it just kept dropping.
It never got back up to anywhere near its full capacity,
which was only eighty as opposed to like hundreds in
De Winear or silver Water. It was a bit better there,
(14:34):
like we had actual like a little gym and stuff
like that, whereas I'd never had anything like that before.
So I would either do a lot of running or
my partner would send me in by letters like programs
of like body weight or totally equipment free workouts. I
still have them. I had this huge pile of all
(14:55):
of the programs that I used to do. But yeah,
just try and keep really busy. And I really thought,
I thought, Okay, I've got two and a half years.
While I'm in there, I'm going to get a degree
or something. Well, wasn't I dreaming?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Isn't It isn't a case put in a bluey Sorry
we can't sorry hello ed education. I think it was
called in you you what education? There is no education,
no course.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing. And so people everybody is just
sitting there, you know, boord shit list, wasting their time,
not learning any new skills, not learning any value within
themselves or you know, realizing that they're capable of things.
It's a freaking huge gap that we have in our
(15:49):
system of no education or no upskilling. It's just ridiculous.
And for me, right, my case was directly related to
my job, so I need to now find something different
to do. I don't have to, but it's obviously more
difficult for me to get work in that you know,
line of work that I was doing. So it would have.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Been well, it's a massive trust thing, isn't it. So
that level of company information, and.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
It makes me nervous too. So even for me, like
I lost a whole lot of confidence in doing it
anyway because I was so scared of doing the wrong thing.
And yeah, so far out the fact that you know,
there is no opportunity for education was just mind blowing.
To me, So that's what I thought that I would do,
but yeah, that didn't happen, and then I went to
(16:37):
a transitional center and then eventually got works release and dayly.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Eve and went through that process. Did you I did, Yeah,
continue doing over two years or eighteen months or something,
was it?
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Yeah, And I think that's so important too, particularly for
long terms. I think it's you know, it's it is
definitely a program that is set up and that runs
that is helpful for people to experience getting back in
the community. And even when I left, there was you know,
a girl leaving and she'd done a long time, so
(17:11):
to work out a smartphone like that had to be
taught and things like that. So when you're I guess
at a low security and you're in places that I
guess have the capability of being able to go in
the community and just get used to things. Again, if
you've done seven, ten or more years, it's a lot
(17:32):
to get used to. And as well, coming out after COVID,
everything transitioned onto people's phones and things like that, so
they were even things that I didn't know about and
I was still in touch with the outside world prior
to going in, and it wasn't a huge amount of time.
That's so much a change, but there were still changes.
(17:53):
So yeah, I think we definitely need more support for
people coming out, And for sure, thats just what contributes
to this revolving door of If you don't have a
network of people who are going to support you when
you about or who have the capability to support you
and the means to support you, it's so hard to
(18:13):
land back on your feet and get employment or just
have somewhere to be while you transition. So yeah, I
was super blessed that I have that, you know, that
network and that level of support from family and friends.
But for the people who don't, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
And that's you know what I really agree with you.
And the thing is, you know, with the clink now,
you know, we've had our period of three years of
you know, stories of redemption, which your story is you know,
technically of redemption, but it's bigger than that. I'm you know,
I wanted to have you on as a guest because
(18:53):
of your lived experience, because of what you've went through
and what you are wanting to do and what you
are doing now, which I think is commendable. And I
feel that you know this is the purpose of the
growth of the Clink is to enable people to come
out even from in jail and stuff. And if they
(19:14):
come across the Clink, we're providing a toolbox of as
I like to call it, life tools to be able
to help somebody who doesn't have that skill set, doesn't
have that knowledge, doesn't have that way of thinking to
believe in themselves and believe and like yourself. You know,
your whole world was turned upside down from you know,
(19:34):
like you said, you come from a loving kind carrying upbringing.
There was nothing too untoward, and next minute you're doing
jail for one of Australia's biggest crimes, like when it
comes to fraud, like let's let's muck around. One hundred
and five million dollars is no small amount. So you're
at the top of the food chain in a part
(19:55):
of history in that respect within the country. How does
one and then get back on her feet or his
feet and be the best that they can be? You know,
what are the tools that you're able to pass on
to others that you know are going to come out
and have these same sort of feelings but may not
have the support, don't have that network and you know what,
(20:15):
it's all bullshit. They give you a couple of numbers,
they'll give you a release check that's I think about
four hundred dollars. I don't even know how much it is.
But at the end of it, it's not even a
night's accommodation in a hotel leat alone, putting food on
your feet, clothes on your back, you know, like, especially
from a woman's point of view, necessities for living, for
just hygiene and things that you require as women. Us
(20:36):
men could probably kick around for a few days extra,
you know, just in what we've got off whatever, But
there's so much more to coming home and to finding
your feet and finding that self belief and knowing that
you can get through this and it is going to
be tough, there's no two ways about it. Yeah, you're
now released, and wow those two and a half years.
(21:00):
And I'm sure that there's a lot there that we
could touch on that we don't need to, And I, respectfully,
I don't like to go down too many different roads
like that with my guests. Look, I've been I get it,
and I think a lot of our listeners have. So
what inspires me is how people come back from these
hardships and these choices and you know things that we
(21:21):
we do do that put us in these places. You're
now released. Let's talk about that day that you've come
home to your loving arms of partner and family and yeah,
how was it and where was your mind at?
Speaker 4 (21:33):
So it's crazy, like you think about this day for
you know, every day that you're inside and you, I
guess you're envision of what you think it's going to
be like. And you know, people say, what's the first
thing you're going to do?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
And did you get dressed in the car park?
Speaker 4 (21:51):
No? I was because I was in transitional I could
wear cibbies anyway, so I didn't have to. I didn't
have to get out of my greens.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I remember my wife literally turning up to back with
a brand new pair of shoes, bran new pair of assets,
brand new pair n a nice little Gann outfit, and
I was just like, wo there we go off. We
went from Bathurst to Sydney for the night before we
flow home. But you know, you do, people don't get it.
You don't come out and the world's.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Life just continues. No, not at all. And I think
it's you know the realization that that's the reality is
that that's not how it's going to be. Like you said,
it's going to be tough, but for me it was
it was just not looking you know, the picture too
(22:40):
far ahead and not looking at it, you know, where
do I wish I was here now? And things like that,
because it's just it's too overwhelming. So I for sure,
I'm just like, you've got to break it down into
what you can do that day, whether it's you know,
make an appointment with someone at Services New South Wales
(23:01):
or go to Services New South Wales that day. There's
you know, we're only humans trying to get back on
our feet. We can't. Rome wasn't built in a day,
so it's just.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Your license has expired, your bank accounts may have been yeah, exactly. No,
you don't have a passport obviously because you can't leave
the country that's going to be current. You know, like
you've got all these things that we don't think about
every day because they're available to us in our purses
and our wallets on back prone we just naturally think,
okay it somebody steals it. It's like, holy fuck, oh
my world's fallen apart, and it is hard. It is
(23:32):
even replacing that today. Imagine coming home and having nothing.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
You know, yeah, yeah, exactly, nothing.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Hard, you know, like the simple things that we take
for granted.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah, for sure. And I think it's with anything, you know,
if you're trying to achieve something or it is, you know,
the case that you're getting back on your feet, you've
just got to take it a day at a time.
And I think it really it comes down to just
your attitude and your mindset to and you know, acknowledging
that you are in a shit space and it is
(24:06):
really hard. But you know, sitting in that and dwelling
in that is really not going to get you, you know,
any further forward. So, like I say, break it down,
and what I learned while I was in there and
since coming home too, is you can be bitter or
you can be better, but you can't you can't be both.
You know, it's one or the other. And at times
(24:28):
it might be a bit bitter, and you know, there's
no you don't just have to shove that under the
carpet and you know, hide the trauma, waiting for it
to come back up another day sort of thing. But
you've just got to, you know, turn on a really
positive attitude. And it's not that I'm saying that from
a rainbows and unicorns kind of way. It's from a
(24:52):
place of reality because I've been there and I've done it.
I've I've sat in my darkest times and I've looked
at my life where I've lost literally everything. Other than
the people, I've lost everything. I don't have, you know,
have a dollar to my name, and I'm even still
struggling with that two years after I've been released. It
has been hard because I came home and you know,
(25:15):
then I you know, became a mom, so I haven't
been working full time and things like that, and it
is still hard for me to deal with. But I can.
I can choose whether I want to sit in that
of it being hard, or whether I want to just
think of something small that I do move forward and
(25:37):
you gay momentum on it. You know, it compounds and
it does lead you to where you want to be,
and it takes time, and that for me is really
hard to I'm like, let's get it done now, you know,
I don't want to wait for this, or if I
can do something now, I'll do it. But again, it
(25:58):
just becomes overwhelming because you want everything yesterday. So yeah,
I really, I just think that we've all got a
choice of how we set out in our day. I
still lose my shit and feel sorry for myself sometimes
there's no doubt about it. And I'm overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
And that's now going to be an everyday part of
your life. Is something I say to people. I mean,
it took me, took me far out. Well I'm still
I wouldn't say now, but two thousand and so, ten
years ago, eleven twelve years ago, I was released. Now,
that's not the time that I spent for three months
(26:36):
on remand with this other crap, but my last sentence,
So we're talking a long time ago. It took me
a good eighteen months to actually physically want to sit
in the lounge room or outside of Like I would
come in eat and I'd have a TV in my bedroom,
which probably wasn't a good thing, and I'll go and
(26:56):
just put myself on the bed, and that was like
even my children would have to come in to see
me because I just I just was so I guess
it used to just four walls, and my day would
end early, my days would start early, you know, like
you just have to try and break that cycle, and it.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Isn't easy, but it was up to you to do
it right of course.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I mean, look at it annoyed the family because at
the end of the day, I wasn't being sociable, I
was reclused. I was very hard to live with because
I was anal about certain things and set my ways.
And as you know, you know yourself, these are things
that you have to become and adapt to and this
is part of the process. So you know, breaking that
(27:47):
cycle and understanding and learning just how much life I
guess can be different at the blink of an eyelid,
and a choice.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
Is very important. You know, you've got to change in jail,
you have to change yourself because you have to change
yourself to the environment that you're in. But then you've
again got to change yourself when you do come home.
And I think it, you know, it gets tiring too,
because you're fighting for something every day, not you know,
(28:19):
I don't mean physically or anything like that, but you're
fighting to cope with what is happening. And in prison,
like you have this guard up all the time because
you have to. You know, it's letting go of that
and it's readjusting to the outside world. Like you say,
you were, you know, anal about certain things, and now
(28:39):
you've got to reintegrate with your family and learn again
or change again how you know, we're to live in
that family unit. So it definitely takes time. And and
you know, for someone who possibly could listen to this
after being released, I haven't even been out yet for
as long as I was in. So you know as well,
(29:01):
if if you kind of just take a step back
and look at it that way too, you're not going
to undo a few years worth of routine and structure
in a couple of weeks. That's not going to happen.
And it, Yeah, it just takes time to get on
your feet, and it would be it would be amazing
(29:21):
if the services were I guess easier to access. And
like you say, they give you a phone number and
you know that doesn't always work out or there's a
weight and things like that, and that's super hard. But
I think if you can kind of just I guess,
(29:44):
come from you know, your own place of self worth
and capability and realization of what you have just gone through,
then like you're invincible.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
You've survived. That's right, And I think that that's a
really good way of putting it because you know, even
in our toughest days for anybody, and that doesn't mean
to say anybody that's had to you know, be in
custody or.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Know, there's so many people. Yeah, who's just.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Life like it is? It's it is and can be
so difficult. You know, you've come home, you're now mum,
and look, thank you for being vulnerable and admitting you know,
like life isn't perfect. You still lose your shit. There
is time there where you struggle because you know that now,
(30:32):
as I said, will forever be a part of your
life and we can put it to the side as
much as we want or we grow from it. I
think that what you wanted to what you're wanting to
achieve now and put that experience into a really positive
spin is really cool. And let's touch on that now
and what it's like being home with Bob and you know,
(30:54):
in those loving arms of the family, and also to
having choices now you're able to make decisions and what
you want to do and giving back.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah, And I think like the decision thing is such
a massive, a massive thing for me because I think
when people think prison they think big barbed wire fence
and physical barriers and lack of freedom, which is of
course true. But I found the biggest thing was your
decisions are taken away from you. You don't get to
(31:25):
choose what you're eating that day, You don't get to
choose what time you are let out of your cell,
or what time you're waking up, or what time you're
back in your cell, and everything like that. It's the decisions.
And then you do come out back into this world
and then everything's up to you again, like straight away.
You know, it's those decisions that I now make, or
have to make every day that I am thankful that
(31:47):
I get to choose because I didn't for so long.
But upon reflection as well, it's learning from the decisions
that I made to get me into the position that
I was in in the first place, and just really
taking them a lot more seriously. The choices that I
do have, the decisions that I do make knowing that
they're going to have consequences, whether they're negative or positive.
(32:10):
So I really try and focus on that. And I
think it's something as well that you know, if our
teens can learn from and adolescents, I mean, it's hard
when you're that h two because you kind of think
you know everything. I remember thinking I knew everything then too,
But yeah, so now I do like some speaking engagements
(32:32):
and stuff with the University of Sydney, and it's good
to be in the corporate space for me because that's
the space that I came from, and that's the space
that maybe people aren't super aware of these things or
no people you know who have been to prison.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
That's actually quite quite smart and using your skill set
and tools that you already have and growing again with
the knowledge that you have from the experience. I really
really think that's valid, and I'd having said this to
somebody just recently, you know, like we look at a
lot of our youth and a lot of the trouble
(33:12):
that we're seeing, and I put it down to lack
of engagement, funding and so many more shows we could
get down a rabbit hole, but there's only one way
that they're going to go, and it's some jail or death.
It's very sad. I feel that, you know, the government
needs to take ownership, the police need to take ownership,
because at the end of the day, there's people like ourselves,
both male and female who are willing to contribute, give
(33:33):
back and assist and try and guide our young people.
But we are so restricted because of the way society
sees us. For you to be able to have speaking
engagements is phenomenal. I think, you know, you're working in
an area where you are already a very well experienced,
knowledgeable able to give back and educate, you know. And
(33:57):
I said to this person, we've got you know, people
stealing cars and sort of stuff. You said, I, how
do we stop? You know, how do we get that kid?
I said, well, you know, when you think about it,
you entice somebody with something that makes them feel good.
What did they like? Work out what it is that
gets that young person fired, you know, what fires them
up in their belly? So then give them an opportunity
(34:17):
for an example. And I know this might be a
little bit out there, but it wasn't. Only so long ago.
I did a lot of mentoring. We've troubled you through
different programs for four years I volunteered, and you know,
we come up with this part of the program where,
for example, this young person was a car thief and
he was quite good and loved these cars. So we're
(34:38):
able to get him involved in the panel beating industry
and mechanics sign of things, which he just took to
like it was just and he still messages me today.
And the thing with that was he instantly had a passion. Now,
this wonderful person who had this beat up, old wrecked
car there said to this young fella, if you stick
(34:58):
with me, I'll give you that car for you to
rebuild in your time and I'll help you with it.
So that he then had something to aim at, but
also something he could look at physically and know that
each time he went to work that was a step
forward in his future. So when the car eventually got finished,
(35:20):
he was gifted that vehicle. Now it wasn't a flash,
you know, you be on the top of the line anything,
but it was the whole point around how to better
this young man's life and give him an opportunity that
he didn't have. Amazing, which to me is along the
lines of what you're trying to achieve is preventation of
people being naive, I guess, or being conscious, being conscious
(35:43):
within the corporate world of what can happen, and.
Speaker 4 (35:48):
You know, like you say, for him finding his passion
or looking at what drives these people to do it,
and in this case too, for me, it was I
want to be successful, I'm ambitious, but I wasn't doing
it down the right way. I wasn't fueling my ambition
(36:12):
and my drive down the right path. Had I have,
you know, sent it down another path, and you know,
things could have turned out really different. And yeah, just
just recognizing that in the corporate space and just having
some people aware of it when maybe they weren't before.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Do you look at things now and think to yourself, like,
and I am a believer that things happened for reason.
God knows why, because I question sometimes I'm in some
of the situations I'm in. But you know, I've got
to be remain optimistic and positive about it. And this
is the whole point of what we're trying to achieve
here today, and we lead to our guests is inspire others,
no matter what the hardship, find that little bit of
(36:52):
light and believe in you, you know, back yourself and
keep going forward and being the best you can be.
You know, I feel that it's it can be very
haunting at times because we all feel that shit, yeah,
I'm stuck. I'm not going to get there like for
you coming home, Okay, you've obviously had to really think
(37:16):
about obviously, mum. You know you're a family woman, you
have a partner, so there's so much more to life
than just yourself. Now, how do you bring the best
of you to your family financially, physically, mentally, And you've
put yourself in a space that you're passionate about obviously,
in something that you're very well aware of.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
I guess, like for me, looking back at it now,
I definitely think that things do happen for a reason.
And while you're in the midst of it, you just think, surely, not, like,
what's this got to do with anything you do? You
have to you have to be able to have that
sort of experience or have had the experience in order
(37:58):
to be able to bring awareness or teach other people
or educate other people on it. And if they're I
weren't people like myself or you who have gone through
all of these things who had the ability to kind
of share it and pass it on, then I'm not
sure you know, any of us would be learning and growing.
(38:19):
So as hard and as difficult as it is, I
definitely think things do happen for a reason. For sure.
And and it took me getting into prison and actually
consistently sitting down with myself thinking about it, recognizing what
(38:42):
good it was that I did want to, you know,
gain out of it, and I guess turn a bad
situation into something worthwhile for sure. So you know, it
took all of those four am wake ups where I
would journal or you know, sit and read the Bible,
try and learn some you know, anything about about why
(39:07):
it might be that I am in the situation that
I am in and what I can give back from
it and not just make it about myself either. I
think that's when it just becomes that's when you can
really easily sit in it and dwell in it, when
you just make it about yourself and think no one
(39:28):
gets it and no one understands, and okay, so then
what can I do for people to get it and
for people to understand? And I wasn't the only one
sitting in prison. There's hundreds of other people sitting in prison,
so it doesn't just happen to me, you know, So
not just thinking that, but trying to think what can
I give back out of the situation that I've been
(39:51):
in and make something positive out of it and.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
What is it that Devin really wants to do. What
is it that you're passionate about today and the direction.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
I definitely would love to to help people more in
any way that I can, in terms of prevention and
you know, helping whether it's youth or or just you know,
adults and sometimes people who have been in and out
(40:23):
of jail and don't really know any different, just helping
them with getting a different direction and a different path
in their life. I think for sure, our governments and
services really learn a lot from people like us who
have lived experience. I think they're the ones that they
should be reaching out to and you know, gaining some
(40:48):
knowledge on how it feels, you know, how we all
might process it. Because those angry rages that happen inside
cells and things like that are from something much more
than the little thing that may have set it off.
So yeah, I would really like, I guess, to educate
(41:13):
as many as I can on understanding that these things
don't just happen to only certain people as well. You
don't have to come from a certain place in a
certain country or things like that. Like I had a
really normal, normal upbringing and it still happened to me
because of the decisions that I made, so really working
(41:36):
out how we can do things better, you know, to
avoid people consistently going back to jail and just giving
people the knowledge to be able to move forward. But
also the greatest society I guess, the awareness to not
always judge or assume and just be more open I guess,
(41:59):
to giving people a second chance.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
What's two tools that you can leave today that I've
gotten you this far and allowed you to start to
find your feet and really embrace what you're passionate about
and enabling you to be up there and now delivering
speeches to corporates and through that space. Two important tools
(42:24):
that you would hand to somebody else that we could
put into life's toolbox here on the clink.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
I think one of them would definitely be just breaking
things down, not getting overwhelmed and just thinking, okay, for
myself today, what can that be or what does that
look like? Just thinking about like one step you know,
(42:52):
every day that I can do consistently to get to
where I want to be. The next one would be
just your attitude. Like I say, you can be better
or you can be bitter, but you.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Can't be the best you can be.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
Yeah, and some days that's not going to happen for sure,
Like some days it's not. Some days you're going to
take the bit of path and that's just reality. But
if you can just turn that around as quickly as
you can, think of just one small way that you
can be better, and you know you'll gain momentum from that.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, and I have to agree. I think, you know,
mindset is huge, and if we can get our mind
in a really sort of positive space. But as you say,
break it down, yeah, you know, like turn it into smaller,
smaller goals rather than always aiming for that I need
to be or I want to be there because it is.
It is slow, it's a stepping stone, but it's definitely achievable.
(43:52):
You've just got to give yourself the opportunity. And self
belief is huge, you know, Like I'm always telling people
one percent better each day because that's all you need
to be. You don't have to win the race, be competitive,
and it's only you you've got to compete against. It's
you know, forget about the Joneses and everybody else. I mean,
(44:12):
they're in their own race.
Speaker 4 (44:13):
But you know what, Brent and I think that's such
a good point too, is not trying to keep up
with everybody else and me where everybody else is because.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
We're all we've got to not give a it's whatever.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Such different journeys, Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, And to me, I think that that's a really
valid point and something that you know from your experience
is really worthy. Look, I want to I know that
it's time that you've taken out of your family today,
So I want to firstly thank you for reaching out
and secondly for allowing me to have you on the
Clink and deliver your story. I think it's a very
(44:51):
good and interesting insight to know how life can really
take you on a downward spiral, but how you come
back is what it's all about. And that's exactly what
the Clink is about, is about giving people that in spray.
And I just want to say well done on everything
moving forward, and I'd love to keep in contacting hear
down the track how you're going and if we can
(45:12):
help and support what you are doing. Please let us know.
You've got an Instagram page. If anyone would like to
reach out or talk further with you, how can they
contact you?
Speaker 4 (45:23):
Yes, I do firstly thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate everyone listening, and yeah, yeah, I really appreciate it.
So my Instagram is at Mind your Mistakes, and I
talk a little bit on there. I guess about the
jail experience and things like that, and it's just a
(45:44):
place if you know people. I think people are really
curious about it, which is all well and good, but
I guess it's also you know, bringing that awareness about
the fact that you know, people do also want a
second chance and to move on from it.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
So move on. I love that, and move on exactly
because you know, if we keep dwelling on. I guess
that was you know, like even talking earlier about the
clink moving and evolving, like the stories of redemption have
been amazing. But now we've grown into this really beautiful,
big platform where we have such an immense you know
(46:20):
following in reference to our listeners, and I'm like, we've
got to give more back, you know, and how do
we do that? Well, it's growth and we've got to
take that into everyday living as well. So you know,
not only do we grow here and try and now
have as many guests as we can with success stories
to help others but life in general, if we've just
(46:42):
got to embrace where we're at and make the best
of it.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
Definitely, definitely, you never know, so.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Thank you very much and you don't ever know, so
never give up. To everybody out there today, I just
want to say thank you very much once again to
all our new listeners, welcome and I hope you continue
to enjoy. Remember seventeen seasons we're into, so there's plenty
there to into, lots of great stories. Feel free to
go back through from season one. Look, it is something
(47:11):
that I'm very proud of in each of our guests
over the years. It's it's been an absolute honor. Sideway
surf for all clink Ink Apparel, be the best you
can be. In a massive shout out to pod Shape
for putting up with me every week and producing the
best true crime podcast in Australia. We are the OG
and what can I say, it's been our wonderful journey.
(47:35):
We're going to continue to bring great stories and enlighten
people's lives. Thank you so much, Jovan, Thank you Gray
for the record.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Don't try and make you out comfortable for the record.
You try and world and stuff for your fort a
record lab on me, going hard to work, record a
trying link, not trying to watch stuff for.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
A ragged.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
For a ragged photo.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Racken
Yeah, Approache production, Photo Record. I don't trying to make
you uncomfortable. Photo Record. You ain't trying world any stuff
(00:28):
for your photo record lab on me going all the
way photo record. Ain't trying to link. No trying to
waste your stuff for the record photo record, photo Poto
record for the right for the record record photo record,
(00:50):
don't try and make you uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Welcome back to the Clink and part two of Brand's
chat with Devin Hammond.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
We'll kick things off with her sharing her experience inside
some of Australia's toughest female prisoners.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Did you have any any issues because of the amount
of money that was publicly listed that was, you know,
defrauded And I mean obviously that would put a real
big red light over your head that you're someone that
might have something that you.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Know, Yeah, I was. I'd had my solicitor had had
this conversation with me prior to going in and he
just said, you know, this could be a thing where
people find out about the amount of money so they
think that you have money and whatnot. So I made
an effort not to I made it a thing for myself.
I guess not to talk about it. I certainly wouldn't.
(01:37):
You know, some people like to go in and brag
about what they've done. Of course, that's that was definitely
not the case for me. I wasn't proud of what
I'd done anyway, but I definitely wasn't going to go
around telling everybody as well.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
And it didn't come out it did It.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Did because that's what happened with me is someone got
on the phone and you know, said, what's to go here.
People compare sentences and lengths of time and things like
that too, so.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
They're not stupid because you've got to remember, but that's
all they do is sit there day in and day out,
you know, play puzzles in their own mind, and it's
occupying their brains. So you know, being able to sort
of pull apart somebody else's strand and look. In some
cases you need to do it because you need to
know who you're around. And there are some really shit
people in there for someds horrendous crimes, and some of
(02:28):
them come into the main and they'll hide in the
main until they get found out and then they get
chopped into and they get sent So I mean, you know,
you don't know, you just.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
Don't know, no you don't. Yeah, so there was a
girl who'd done that and I just, you know, was
basically like, I don't appreciate it. If there were things
that I wanted to talk about or whatever, I would
do So if not, I just don't want to. But
if you want to know something, come and talk to
me about it rather than everyone else first. I guess
(02:59):
there were kind of situations like that. You know, people
ask you whether you like you use, and I kind
of found that helpful to people not you know, knowing that.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I didn't because they step off.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
And yeah, they don't bother with you, or when there's
fights and this you know, had happened before as well.
There were issues in the house, shit was stolen, so
then everyone's going crazy and they know whether you're being
legit or not whether you say you use or not,
like they're going to know if you're lying or you're not.
So yeah, it was like I don't need to worry
(03:33):
about you because I know that you don't. So I
always say, if you're not into other girls and you're
not into drugs, you should be fine because I think
they're the main things that everyone fights over.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
And isn't that funny? Because you know, in the male
male system, obviously the drugs are a massive issue, but
it's it's definitely not a male on male sort of stuff.
But you know, like just touching on that, it actually
is a big thing in the women's system, isn't.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
It what it is?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
It is huge. Lamanships call it gay in jail and normally, yeah,
it's a thing. It's a thing.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
It is. It's a thing where they never are or
never were on the outside. And then I guess, you know,
people are just wanting that companionship and I think that's
really all that comes down to. And you know so
many women turn gay in jail. Yeah, but it can
it can cause a lot of drama.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Just on your experience, and you know, like I don't
want to keep sort of going down because I mean,
this is your story and there's a lot more to
you than obviously, but it is important you you're going
for sentencing, and I would was it the Downing Center
district or do you go Supreme?
Speaker 4 (04:41):
No? I went Supreme.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Wow, So that's that's not a good feeling coming. So
you're not in custody, everybody's there sentencing day, obviously, did
you have a sentence indication or an agreement that if
you played guilty that you would only do a certain
amount of time or was it just.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Nothing I had? Oh wow, yes, so I had. I
had a two day sentence, and it was possible that
the judge would have revoked my bail after the first day,
or if he hadn't have made the decision on the
first day, which is what would what happened. But thankfully
he didn't revoke my bail. So I went home that night.
(05:20):
So I knew that the following day was like D Day.
That was it. There. I was not coming home. I
knew it was going to be custodial. I just didn't
know how long.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
How did you feel, though, I mean, look, I couldn't imagine.
I have to admit I I'd never liked once going
into court for sentencing. I always found being in custody
at the time of sentencing was never easy, but easier. Yeah,
you're already there, You're already kicking your you know, you know,
you're already in the realm of things. Your your mind's different. Yeah,
(05:51):
but you know that, I know that uneasy feeling when
you're sitting there in the box and you're listening to
your sentence get handed down, even the words you know,
two year sentence, you know, suspended and it's like, oh fuck,
now five years with the suspend it and good behavior
and you know that moment of like my last one
(06:13):
was I was it was a technicality, so I had
to get the rising of the court and to do that,
they had to sentence me on the spot to custody
whilst the judge and I were in the court and
everybody whilst I was in the court. I was sentenced
in custody. Once the judge had left her residing chair,
then I was automatically releasing. The sentence was done, but
(06:36):
then there was a new suspended sentence on top of that. Right,
that was freaky because it was just like, yeah, what's
going on. Yeah, you know, one minute you're sort of
thinking I'm not going to do the next minute you're
told you're in custody. Next minute you hold that you're
free to go. And it is it's a mind boggling feeling.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
It is, for sure. But yeah, like so surreal saying
goodbye to your friends and family before you all walk
into the courtroom. Because once you've given your sentence, that's it.
And you know, you look at everyone before that door
closs and it's just like what the hell Like, it's
just it's kind of like, is this really my life?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I think the worst feeling when they turn you around
and they literally walk you out that little door the corridor,
and you know, you go fucking you go into a maze.
And that's why a lot of people won't know is
from a courtroom you're taken into, it's not just a
cell directly behind your It's a full maze.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Of lists in the city, under the ground, and you're
just your head's just spinning. You have no idea or
your bearings, and until you come out in the truck
and you're out the little people trying to where you are.
It's crazy, it is.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
It is. So yeah, they took me down and and
then I went from there to the Downing Center to
wait forever everybody there to finish up for the day.
And then from there we went to Surrey Hills. But
I just remember it wasn't like a proper prison truck.
It was one of usually like the medical transfer bands
where you're in like this tiny, tiny box and if
(08:18):
you suffer from claustrophobia, like you're gone because this thing is.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I was at one of the vans, one of the
actually mans. Yeah, the windowed out sliding. You hop into
this tiny little silver box, shut the door in, then
they shut the door behind us.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Literally if you're like, knees are almost touching your teeth, yeap.
And then I went to Surrey Hills. I spent a
night there and almost to the next one. I think
we left Surrey Hills at like ten o'clock the following
night to go to Malowa. And there were a couple
of dolls.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, wait on the trucks to come all in from
the four yep.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
They were waiting obviously for court to finish, sort everybody out,
figure out where everyone's going. And then we were on
the truck to Malowa. And yeah, even even there, like
by the time you go through reception and get all
of your stuff and and see the nurse and everything,
it was.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I have a pie waiting for you. Was it hot
dog sausage rolls?
Speaker 4 (09:16):
I can't remember. I think it was like sandwiches. Yeah,
you prefer a sandwich, right, cold pies and brew It
was definitely pastries at Surrey Hills though, because it was
the weekend, so you know, the weekend is past trees only,
absolutely terrible. And I remember being in my first cell
(09:38):
in Blahlah blah, and the stainless steel it like it
just I could just smell blood, That's what it smelled
like that like metallic key smell.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
And yeah, I think the worst part is too, when
you're given an allocated if it's you know, well, if
you're going into reception, you generally got a seally that's
coming as well, and it's in a putrid cell that
hasn't been properly Yeah. Yeah, you're looking at everything gone.
How I'm not even going to use that toilet basically
sleep on that mattress like you've got no pillow. You
(10:10):
got none your pillow as you jump up because you've
got to roll it up and stick it in your
case with your your plastic bowl and fork and stin.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Yeah. And I remember, like my ears would be really
sore in the morning from like you know, sleeping on
something so hard.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
I remember one night in silver Water, like I was
so cold and I just couldn't get warm, and it
was my feet that were cold, and I had socks on,
so I would like get out of bed and turn
the hot water on I mean at least we had
hot water, but turn the hot water on and just
like run it over my feet for a bit just
to warm them up because I just couldn't fall asleep
it was so freaking cold. Yeah, but there's all these
(10:48):
different things and tricks and ways that you like learn
to make your bed even so that you're warm or
as warm as possible.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
It's crazy. Oh look, you know it's once again. You know,
we're not here to We're here to deter. I think
that's the word. And you know, we can share these
truths about what it actually is and what it is
that people actually go through because unless you've been there,
but like there's so much bullshit out there and so
many stories, and it's it's not as it seems. It
(11:18):
can be worse and sometimes not as bad. You know,
it just depends. But you know it's important to be
able to have it from different perspectives. Obviously. You know,
a female is very different going into custody than a male.
I mean, male is very intimidating and overwhelming because everyone's
eyeball and everyone everybody's waiting for someone to say something,
(11:41):
everyone's on edge. Everybody's just full on fueled with emotion,
which I've no doubt's the same as woman. But you know,
maybe a lot of women licking their lips coming, you
know what I mean, Like I can assure that shit
doesn't happen in the men. It's more what's he got?
What am I taking? You know? Like, yeah, so you
let's talk about a little bit more about you know,
(12:02):
your time, and just a brief over because it will
two years of your two and a half years.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Ah. I spent maybe three or four weeks in silver Water.
I guess the good thing was I was already sentenced
so they could classify me. So I got classified as
a C two. From there, I went to de Winnea.
I spent a few months in de Winnia, and I
didn't mind it there. I mean, in terms of jail.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I couldn't stand it. I preferred the main I think
that you had a bit of better structure in the
way that you're able to do your jail and just
in and out short days, you know what I mean,
Like you learn about politics and the style and the
way it's all run. The days are long. You're in
a group, you've always fucking drama.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Yeah. When I moved to smaller jails for sure. That
was like you can see why there are certain jail rules,
and they kind of have to be there for a
reason because when you get into these smaller centers, everyone
knows everybody else's business. No one minds their own business.
And because there's not I guess, you know, the jail
(13:05):
politics and rules and things like that that go on
in these smaller centers, everyone just gets it gets worse,
like it's super bitchy and stuff. But yeah, I guess
for me, with my time, it was super important for
me to just do as much as I could throughout
my day. So like I always made sure that I worked.
I tried to do jobs that were labor intensive. I
(13:26):
started in the library. That was too long of a
day for me, so I moved into buyops and I
ah enjoyed that. Yeah, I went into buyops and then yeah,
like after work, I would just go for a run
or train with a couple of girls who would train
and I guess just try and like wear myself out
(13:47):
as much as possible so that at night you could sleep.
Basically that was always my main goal. And obviously just
to stay fit. I you know, did that while I
was on bail. It's always been a thing for me anyway,
so it helps with me mentally more than anything else.
So yeah, made sure that I trained. I did a
lot of running when I was at De Winea because
it's big enough for you to be able to do that.
(14:10):
And then I moved out to EMU Planes and that
was again it was different because I think at that stage,
like the most amount of girls that were in it
at that time, we're thirty five, and it just kept dropping.
It never got back up to anywhere near its full capacity,
which was only eighty as opposed to like hundreds in
De Winear or silver Water. It was a bit better there,
(14:34):
like we had actual like a little gym and stuff
like that, whereas I'd never had anything like that before.
So I would either do a lot of running or
my partner would send me in by letters like programs
of like body weight or totally equipment free workouts. I
still have them. I had this huge pile of all
(14:55):
of the programs that I used to do. But yeah,
just try and keep really busy. And I really thought,
I thought, Okay, I've got two and a half years.
While I'm in there, I'm going to get a degree
or something. Well, wasn't I dreaming?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Isn't It isn't a case put in a bluey Sorry
we can't sorry hello ed education. I think it was
called in you you what education? There is no education,
no course.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing. And so people everybody is just
sitting there, you know, boord shit list, wasting their time,
not learning any new skills, not learning any value within
themselves or you know, realizing that they're capable of things.
It's a freaking huge gap that we have in our
(15:49):
system of no education or no upskilling. It's just ridiculous.
And for me, right, my case was directly related to
my job, so I need to now find something different
to do. I don't have to, but it's obviously more
difficult for me to get work in that you know,
line of work that I was doing. So it would have.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Been well, it's a massive trust thing, isn't it. So
that level of company information, and.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
It makes me nervous too. So even for me, like
I lost a whole lot of confidence in doing it
anyway because I was so scared of doing the wrong thing.
And yeah, so far out the fact that you know,
there is no opportunity for education was just mind blowing.
To me, So that's what I thought that I would do,
but yeah, that didn't happen, and then I went to
(16:37):
a transitional center and then eventually got works release and dayly.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Eve and went through that process. Did you I did, Yeah,
continue doing over two years or eighteen months or something,
was it?
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Yeah, And I think that's so important too, particularly for
long terms. I think it's you know, it's it is
definitely a program that is set up and that runs
that is helpful for people to experience getting back in
the community. And even when I left, there was you know,
a girl leaving and she'd done a long time, so
(17:11):
to work out a smartphone like that had to be
taught and things like that. So when you're I guess
at a low security and you're in places that I
guess have the capability of being able to go in
the community and just get used to things. Again, if
you've done seven, ten or more years, it's a lot
(17:32):
to get used to. And as well, coming out after COVID,
everything transitioned onto people's phones and things like that, so
they were even things that I didn't know about and
I was still in touch with the outside world prior
to going in, and it wasn't a huge amount of time.
That's so much a change, but there were still changes.
(17:53):
So yeah, I think we definitely need more support for
people coming out, And for sure, thats just what contributes
to this revolving door of If you don't have a
network of people who are going to support you when
you about or who have the capability to support you
and the means to support you, it's so hard to
(18:13):
land back on your feet and get employment or just
have somewhere to be while you transition. So yeah, I
was super blessed that I have that, you know, that
network and that level of support from family and friends.
But for the people who don't, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
And that's you know what I really agree with you.
And the thing is, you know, with the clink now,
you know, we've had our period of three years of
you know, stories of redemption, which your story is you know,
technically of redemption, but it's bigger than that. I'm you know,
I wanted to have you on as a guest because
(18:53):
of your lived experience, because of what you've went through
and what you are wanting to do and what you
are doing now, which I think is commendable. And I
feel that you know this is the purpose of the
growth of the Clink is to enable people to come
out even from in jail and stuff. And if they
(19:14):
come across the Clink, we're providing a toolbox of as
I like to call it, life tools to be able
to help somebody who doesn't have that skill set, doesn't
have that knowledge, doesn't have that way of thinking to
believe in themselves and believe and like yourself. You know,
your whole world was turned upside down from you know,
(19:34):
like you said, you come from a loving kind carrying upbringing.
There was nothing too untoward, and next minute you're doing
jail for one of Australia's biggest crimes, like when it
comes to fraud, like let's let's muck around. One hundred
and five million dollars is no small amount. So you're
at the top of the food chain in a part
(19:55):
of history in that respect within the country. How does
one and then get back on her feet or his
feet and be the best that they can be? You know,
what are the tools that you're able to pass on
to others that you know are going to come out
and have these same sort of feelings but may not
have the support, don't have that network and you know what,
(20:15):
it's all bullshit. They give you a couple of numbers,
they'll give you a release check that's I think about
four hundred dollars. I don't even know how much it is.
But at the end of it, it's not even a
night's accommodation in a hotel leat alone, putting food on
your feet, clothes on your back, you know, like, especially
from a woman's point of view, necessities for living, for
just hygiene and things that you require as women. Us
(20:36):
men could probably kick around for a few days extra,
you know, just in what we've got off whatever, But
there's so much more to coming home and to finding
your feet and finding that self belief and knowing that
you can get through this and it is going to
be tough, there's no two ways about it. Yeah, you're
now released, and wow those two and a half years.
(21:00):
And I'm sure that there's a lot there that we
could touch on that we don't need to, And I, respectfully,
I don't like to go down too many different roads
like that with my guests. Look, I've been I get it,
and I think a lot of our listeners have. So
what inspires me is how people come back from these
hardships and these choices and you know things that we
(21:21):
we do do that put us in these places. You're
now released. Let's talk about that day that you've come
home to your loving arms of partner and family and yeah,
how was it and where was your mind at?
Speaker 4 (21:33):
So it's crazy, like you think about this day for
you know, every day that you're inside and you, I
guess you're envision of what you think it's going to
be like. And you know, people say, what's the first
thing you're going to do?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
And did you get dressed in the car park?
Speaker 4 (21:51):
No? I was because I was in transitional I could
wear cibbies anyway, so I didn't have to. I didn't
have to get out of my greens.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I remember my wife literally turning up to back with
a brand new pair of shoes, bran new pair of assets,
brand new pair n a nice little Gann outfit, and
I was just like, wo there we go off. We
went from Bathurst to Sydney for the night before we
flow home. But you know, you do, people don't get it.
You don't come out and the world's.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Life just continues. No, not at all. And I think
it's you know the realization that that's the reality is
that that's not how it's going to be. Like you said,
it's going to be tough, but for me it was
it was just not looking you know, the picture too
(22:40):
far ahead and not looking at it, you know, where
do I wish I was here now? And things like that,
because it's just it's too overwhelming. So I for sure,
I'm just like, you've got to break it down into
what you can do that day, whether it's you know,
make an appointment with someone at Services New South Wales
(23:01):
or go to Services New South Wales that day. There's
you know, we're only humans trying to get back on
our feet. We can't. Rome wasn't built in a day,
so it's just.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Your license has expired, your bank accounts may have been yeah, exactly. No,
you don't have a passport obviously because you can't leave
the country that's going to be current. You know, like
you've got all these things that we don't think about
every day because they're available to us in our purses
and our wallets on back prone we just naturally think,
okay it somebody steals it. It's like, holy fuck, oh
my world's fallen apart, and it is hard. It is
(23:32):
even replacing that today. Imagine coming home and having nothing.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
You know, yeah, yeah, exactly, nothing.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Hard, you know, like the simple things that we take
for granted.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah, for sure. And I think it's with anything, you know,
if you're trying to achieve something or it is, you know,
the case that you're getting back on your feet, you've
just got to take it a day at a time.
And I think it really it comes down to just
your attitude and your mindset to and you know, acknowledging
that you are in a shit space and it is
(24:06):
really hard. But you know, sitting in that and dwelling
in that is really not going to get you, you know,
any further forward. So, like I say, break it down,
and what I learned while I was in there and
since coming home too, is you can be bitter or
you can be better, but you can't you can't be both.
You know, it's one or the other. And at times
(24:28):
it might be a bit bitter, and you know, there's
no you don't just have to shove that under the
carpet and you know, hide the trauma, waiting for it
to come back up another day sort of thing. But
you've just got to, you know, turn on a really
positive attitude. And it's not that I'm saying that from
a rainbows and unicorns kind of way. It's from a
(24:52):
place of reality because I've been there and I've done it.
I've I've sat in my darkest times and I've looked
at my life where I've lost literally everything. Other than
the people, I've lost everything. I don't have, you know,
have a dollar to my name, and I'm even still
struggling with that two years after I've been released. It
has been hard because I came home and you know,
(25:15):
then I you know, became a mom, so I haven't
been working full time and things like that, and it
is still hard for me to deal with. But I can.
I can choose whether I want to sit in that
of it being hard, or whether I want to just
think of something small that I do move forward and
(25:37):
you gay momentum on it. You know, it compounds and
it does lead you to where you want to be,
and it takes time, and that for me is really
hard to I'm like, let's get it done now, you know,
I don't want to wait for this, or if I
can do something now, I'll do it. But again, it
(25:58):
just becomes overwhelming because you want everything yesterday. So yeah,
I really, I just think that we've all got a
choice of how we set out in our day. I
still lose my shit and feel sorry for myself sometimes
there's no doubt about it. And I'm overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
And that's now going to be an everyday part of
your life. Is something I say to people. I mean,
it took me, took me far out. Well I'm still
I wouldn't say now, but two thousand and so, ten
years ago, eleven twelve years ago, I was released. Now,
that's not the time that I spent for three months
(26:36):
on remand with this other crap, but my last sentence,
So we're talking a long time ago. It took me
a good eighteen months to actually physically want to sit
in the lounge room or outside of Like I would
come in eat and I'd have a TV in my bedroom,
which probably wasn't a good thing, and I'll go and
(26:56):
just put myself on the bed, and that was like
even my children would have to come in to see
me because I just I just was so I guess
it used to just four walls, and my day would
end early, my days would start early, you know, like
you just have to try and break that cycle, and it.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Isn't easy, but it was up to you to do
it right of course.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I mean, look at it annoyed the family because at
the end of the day, I wasn't being sociable, I
was reclused. I was very hard to live with because
I was anal about certain things and set my ways.
And as you know, you know yourself, these are things
that you have to become and adapt to and this
is part of the process. So you know, breaking that
(27:47):
cycle and understanding and learning just how much life I
guess can be different at the blink of an eyelid,
and a choice.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
Is very important. You know, you've got to change in jail,
you have to change yourself because you have to change
yourself to the environment that you're in. But then you've
again got to change yourself when you do come home.
And I think it, you know, it gets tiring too,
because you're fighting for something every day, not you know,
(28:19):
I don't mean physically or anything like that, but you're
fighting to cope with what is happening. And in prison,
like you have this guard up all the time because
you have to. You know, it's letting go of that
and it's readjusting to the outside world. Like you say,
you were, you know, anal about certain things, and now
(28:39):
you've got to reintegrate with your family and learn again
or change again how you know, we're to live in
that family unit. So it definitely takes time. And and
you know, for someone who possibly could listen to this
after being released, I haven't even been out yet for
as long as I was in. So you know as well,
(29:01):
if if you kind of just take a step back
and look at it that way too, you're not going
to undo a few years worth of routine and structure
in a couple of weeks. That's not going to happen.
And it, Yeah, it just takes time to get on
your feet, and it would be it would be amazing
(29:21):
if the services were I guess easier to access. And
like you say, they give you a phone number and
you know that doesn't always work out or there's a
weight and things like that, and that's super hard. But
I think if you can kind of just I guess,
(29:44):
come from you know, your own place of self worth
and capability and realization of what you have just gone through,
then like you're invincible.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
You've survived. That's right, And I think that that's a
really good way of putting it because you know, even
in our toughest days for anybody, and that doesn't mean
to say anybody that's had to you know, be in
custody or.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Know, there's so many people. Yeah, who's just.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Life like it is? It's it is and can be
so difficult. You know, you've come home, you're now mum,
and look, thank you for being vulnerable and admitting you know,
like life isn't perfect. You still lose your shit. There
is time there where you struggle because you know that now,
(30:32):
as I said, will forever be a part of your
life and we can put it to the side as
much as we want or we grow from it. I
think that what you wanted to what you're wanting to
achieve now and put that experience into a really positive
spin is really cool. And let's touch on that now
and what it's like being home with Bob and you know,
(30:54):
in those loving arms of the family, and also to
having choices now you're able to make decisions and what
you want to do and giving back.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah, And I think like the decision thing is such
a massive, a massive thing for me because I think
when people think prison they think big barbed wire fence
and physical barriers and lack of freedom, which is of
course true. But I found the biggest thing was your
decisions are taken away from you. You don't get to
(31:25):
choose what you're eating that day, You don't get to
choose what time you are let out of your cell,
or what time you're waking up, or what time you're
back in your cell, and everything like that. It's the decisions.
And then you do come out back into this world
and then everything's up to you again, like straight away.
You know, it's those decisions that I now make, or
have to make every day that I am thankful that
(31:47):
I get to choose because I didn't for so long.
But upon reflection as well, it's learning from the decisions
that I made to get me into the position that
I was in in the first place, and just really
taking them a lot more seriously. The choices that I
do have, the decisions that I do make knowing that
they're going to have consequences, whether they're negative or positive.
(32:10):
So I really try and focus on that. And I
think it's something as well that you know, if our
teens can learn from and adolescents, I mean, it's hard
when you're that h two because you kind of think
you know everything. I remember thinking I knew everything then too,
But yeah, so now I do like some speaking engagements
(32:32):
and stuff with the University of Sydney, and it's good
to be in the corporate space for me because that's
the space that I came from, and that's the space
that maybe people aren't super aware of these things or
no people you know who have been to prison.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
That's actually quite quite smart and using your skill set
and tools that you already have and growing again with
the knowledge that you have from the experience. I really
really think that's valid, and I'd having said this to
somebody just recently, you know, like we look at a
lot of our youth and a lot of the trouble
(33:12):
that we're seeing, and I put it down to lack
of engagement, funding and so many more shows we could
get down a rabbit hole, but there's only one way
that they're going to go, and it's some jail or death.
It's very sad. I feel that, you know, the government
needs to take ownership, the police need to take ownership,
because at the end of the day, there's people like ourselves,
both male and female who are willing to contribute, give
(33:33):
back and assist and try and guide our young people.
But we are so restricted because of the way society
sees us. For you to be able to have speaking
engagements is phenomenal. I think, you know, you're working in
an area where you are already a very well experienced,
knowledgeable able to give back and educate, you know. And
(33:57):
I said to this person, we've got you know, people
stealing cars and sort of stuff. You said, I, how
do we stop? You know, how do we get that kid?
I said, well, you know, when you think about it,
you entice somebody with something that makes them feel good.
What did they like? Work out what it is that
gets that young person fired, you know, what fires them
up in their belly? So then give them an opportunity
(34:17):
for an example. And I know this might be a
little bit out there, but it wasn't. Only so long ago.
I did a lot of mentoring. We've troubled you through
different programs for four years I volunteered, and you know,
we come up with this part of the program where,
for example, this young person was a car thief and
he was quite good and loved these cars. So we're
(34:38):
able to get him involved in the panel beating industry
and mechanics sign of things, which he just took to
like it was just and he still messages me today.
And the thing with that was he instantly had a passion. Now,
this wonderful person who had this beat up, old wrecked
car there said to this young fella, if you stick
(34:58):
with me, I'll give you that car for you to
rebuild in your time and I'll help you with it.
So that he then had something to aim at, but
also something he could look at physically and know that
each time he went to work that was a step
forward in his future. So when the car eventually got finished,
(35:20):
he was gifted that vehicle. Now it wasn't a flash,
you know, you be on the top of the line anything,
but it was the whole point around how to better
this young man's life and give him an opportunity that
he didn't have. Amazing, which to me is along the
lines of what you're trying to achieve is preventation of
people being naive, I guess, or being conscious, being conscious
(35:43):
within the corporate world of what can happen, and.
Speaker 4 (35:48):
You know, like you say, for him finding his passion
or looking at what drives these people to do it,
and in this case too, for me, it was I
want to be successful, I'm ambitious, but I wasn't doing
it down the right way. I wasn't fueling my ambition
(36:12):
and my drive down the right path. Had I have,
you know, sent it down another path, and you know,
things could have turned out really different. And yeah, just
just recognizing that in the corporate space and just having
some people aware of it when maybe they weren't before.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Do you look at things now and think to yourself, like,
and I am a believer that things happened for reason.
God knows why, because I question sometimes I'm in some
of the situations I'm in. But you know, I've got
to be remain optimistic and positive about it. And this
is the whole point of what we're trying to achieve
here today, and we lead to our guests is inspire others,
no matter what the hardship, find that little bit of
(36:52):
light and believe in you, you know, back yourself and
keep going forward and being the best you can be.
You know, I feel that it's it can be very
haunting at times because we all feel that shit, yeah,
I'm stuck. I'm not going to get there like for
you coming home, Okay, you've obviously had to really think
(37:16):
about obviously, mum. You know you're a family woman, you
have a partner, so there's so much more to life
than just yourself. Now, how do you bring the best
of you to your family financially, physically, mentally, And you've
put yourself in a space that you're passionate about obviously,
in something that you're very well aware of.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
I guess, like for me, looking back at it now,
I definitely think that things do happen for a reason.
And while you're in the midst of it, you just think, surely, not, like,
what's this got to do with anything you do? You
have to you have to be able to have that
sort of experience or have had the experience in order
(37:58):
to be able to bring awareness or teach other people
or educate other people on it. And if they're I
weren't people like myself or you who have gone through
all of these things who had the ability to kind
of share it and pass it on, then I'm not
sure you know, any of us would be learning and growing.
(38:19):
So as hard and as difficult as it is, I
definitely think things do happen for a reason. For sure.
And and it took me getting into prison and actually
consistently sitting down with myself thinking about it, recognizing what
(38:42):
good it was that I did want to, you know,
gain out of it, and I guess turn a bad
situation into something worthwhile for sure. So you know, it
took all of those four am wake ups where I
would journal or you know, sit and read the Bible,
try and learn some you know, anything about about why
(39:07):
it might be that I am in the situation that
I am in and what I can give back from
it and not just make it about myself either. I
think that's when it just becomes that's when you can
really easily sit in it and dwell in it, when
you just make it about yourself and think no one
(39:28):
gets it and no one understands, and okay, so then
what can I do for people to get it and
for people to understand? And I wasn't the only one
sitting in prison. There's hundreds of other people sitting in prison,
so it doesn't just happen to me, you know, So
not just thinking that, but trying to think what can
I give back out of the situation that I've been
(39:51):
in and make something positive out of it and.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
What is it that Devin really wants to do. What
is it that you're passionate about today and the direction.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
I definitely would love to to help people more in
any way that I can, in terms of prevention and
you know, helping whether it's youth or or just you know,
adults and sometimes people who have been in and out
(40:23):
of jail and don't really know any different, just helping
them with getting a different direction and a different path
in their life. I think for sure, our governments and
services really learn a lot from people like us who
have lived experience. I think they're the ones that they
should be reaching out to and you know, gaining some
(40:48):
knowledge on how it feels, you know, how we all
might process it. Because those angry rages that happen inside
cells and things like that are from something much more
than the little thing that may have set it off.
So yeah, I would really like, I guess, to educate
(41:13):
as many as I can on understanding that these things
don't just happen to only certain people as well. You
don't have to come from a certain place in a
certain country or things like that. Like I had a
really normal, normal upbringing and it still happened to me
because of the decisions that I made, so really working
(41:36):
out how we can do things better, you know, to
avoid people consistently going back to jail and just giving
people the knowledge to be able to move forward. But
also the greatest society I guess, the awareness to not
always judge or assume and just be more open I guess,
(41:59):
to giving people a second chance.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
What's two tools that you can leave today that I've
gotten you this far and allowed you to start to
find your feet and really embrace what you're passionate about
and enabling you to be up there and now delivering
speeches to corporates and through that space. Two important tools
(42:24):
that you would hand to somebody else that we could
put into life's toolbox here on the clink.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
I think one of them would definitely be just breaking
things down, not getting overwhelmed and just thinking, okay, for
myself today, what can that be or what does that
look like? Just thinking about like one step you know,
(42:52):
every day that I can do consistently to get to
where I want to be. The next one would be
just your attitude. Like I say, you can be better
or you can be bitter, but you.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Can't be the best you can be.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
Yeah, and some days that's not going to happen for sure,
Like some days it's not. Some days you're going to
take the bit of path and that's just reality. But
if you can just turn that around as quickly as
you can, think of just one small way that you
can be better, and you know you'll gain momentum from that.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, and I have to agree. I think, you know,
mindset is huge, and if we can get our mind
in a really sort of positive space. But as you say,
break it down, yeah, you know, like turn it into smaller,
smaller goals rather than always aiming for that I need
to be or I want to be there because it is.
It is slow, it's a stepping stone, but it's definitely achievable.
(43:52):
You've just got to give yourself the opportunity. And self
belief is huge, you know, Like I'm always telling people
one percent better each day because that's all you need
to be. You don't have to win the race, be competitive,
and it's only you you've got to compete against. It's
you know, forget about the Joneses and everybody else. I mean,
(44:12):
they're in their own race.
Speaker 4 (44:13):
But you know what, Brent and I think that's such
a good point too, is not trying to keep up
with everybody else and me where everybody else is because.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
We're all we've got to not give a it's whatever.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Such different journeys, Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, And to me, I think that that's a really
valid point and something that you know from your experience
is really worthy. Look, I want to I know that
it's time that you've taken out of your family today,
So I want to firstly thank you for reaching out
and secondly for allowing me to have you on the
Clink and deliver your story. I think it's a very
(44:51):
good and interesting insight to know how life can really
take you on a downward spiral, but how you come
back is what it's all about. And that's exactly what
the Clink is about, is about giving people that in spray.
And I just want to say well done on everything
moving forward, and I'd love to keep in contacting hear
down the track how you're going and if we can
(45:12):
help and support what you are doing. Please let us know.
You've got an Instagram page. If anyone would like to
reach out or talk further with you, how can they
contact you?
Speaker 4 (45:23):
Yes, I do firstly thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate everyone listening, and yeah, yeah, I really appreciate it.
So my Instagram is at Mind your Mistakes, and I
talk a little bit on there. I guess about the
jail experience and things like that, and it's just a
(45:44):
place if you know people. I think people are really
curious about it, which is all well and good, but
I guess it's also you know, bringing that awareness about
the fact that you know, people do also want a
second chance and to move on from it.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
So move on. I love that, and move on exactly
because you know, if we keep dwelling on. I guess
that was you know, like even talking earlier about the
clink moving and evolving, like the stories of redemption have
been amazing. But now we've grown into this really beautiful,
big platform where we have such an immense you know
(46:20):
following in reference to our listeners, and I'm like, we've
got to give more back, you know, and how do
we do that? Well, it's growth and we've got to
take that into everyday living as well. So you know,
not only do we grow here and try and now
have as many guests as we can with success stories
to help others but life in general, if we've just
(46:42):
got to embrace where we're at and make the best
of it.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
Definitely, definitely, you never know, so.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Thank you very much and you don't ever know, so
never give up. To everybody out there today, I just
want to say thank you very much once again to
all our new listeners, welcome and I hope you continue
to enjoy. Remember seventeen seasons we're into, so there's plenty
there to into, lots of great stories. Feel free to
go back through from season one. Look, it is something
(47:11):
that I'm very proud of in each of our guests
over the years. It's it's been an absolute honor. Sideway
surf for all clink Ink Apparel, be the best you
can be. In a massive shout out to pod Shape
for putting up with me every week and producing the
best true crime podcast in Australia. We are the OG
and what can I say, it's been our wonderful journey.
(47:35):
We're going to continue to bring great stories and enlighten
people's lives. Thank you so much, Jovan, Thank you Gray
for the record.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Don't try and make you out comfortable for the record.
You try and world and stuff for your fort a
record lab on me, going hard to work, record a
trying link, not trying to watch stuff for.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
A ragged.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
For a ragged photo.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Racken
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