August 1, 2025 • 30 mins
On this episode of The Deepest Cut, producer and songwriter Ben Shive reflects on the story behind Bright Sadness, a poignant co-write with Jill Phillips from her 2021 album Deeper Into Love. Written in the wake of a diagnosis and personal crisis, the song became a way for Ben to hold grief and grace in the same breath. Ben shares how songwriting helps him give shape to sorrow, not as a place to process pain, but as the work that begins after. This is a conversation about paradox, precision, and the quiet strength of hope.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
Bright sadness is the kind of phrase that stops you cold.
(00:23):
It's two words that shouldn't belong together, but somehow they
name something deeply true. It's the paradox of holding sorrow
and hope in the same breath. And when Jill Phillips
brought it to the writing room, Ben Shive says he
knew it was special. Now, at the time, Ben was reeling,
newly diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, recovering from a personal crisis,
(00:45):
and immersed in the study of trauma. The phrase landed
like a lifeline. It became his way to name the
ache while still reaching for grace. Now, Ben's no stranger
to helping others give language to the deepest parts of life.
He's written with and produced albums for the likes of
Steven Curtis Chapman, Sandra McCracken, Andrew Peterson, The Grey Havens,
(01:06):
colony House, so many others, all while also crafting his
own acclaimed solo work. On this episode of The Deepest Cut,
I sat down with Ben to unpack the making of
the song Bright Sadness, a co-write with Jill from her
21 album Deeper Into Love. Ben shared how songwriting isn't
where he processes pain, it's what happens after. Once the
(01:30):
grief is name, his real work begins. Rhyme. Structure. Precision. Honesty.
It's a conversation about the discipline of hope and the
courage to stay open to sorrow without letting it have
the final word. Here's my conversation with Ben Shive on
The Deepest Cut. Hello and welcome to The Deepest Cut.
(02:06):
I'm your host, Matt Conner. Today's episode I'm here with.
I should have asked you this beforehand. By the way,
Ben Shive, welcome to the show. Thank you. I want
to introduce you in some way, but I feel like
I was actually thinking I wanted to use. I wanted
to use the word wizard, but then I didn't want to, like,
embarrass you or make, like, sound doofus in any way.
(02:28):
But it's like. It's like, uh oh, yeah, he he
plays with all these people. He writes for all these people.
He's got his own song craft producer over here. You
work with so many people that people love. And then
I'm also thinking that maybe people don't even know about
your own catalog. Or at least some people won't. And
I just thought, like, how do you put all that
together in a succinct way? And then I was going
(02:51):
to say some sort of musical wizard, and then here
I am, making it even longer than that. Anyway. How
do you normally like what do you normally tell people?
S2 (02:59):
Uh, you know, Wizard is fine. We were we were
we were in, uh, in Gatlinburg yesterday and we went
to like, a putt putt place. And there was an actual, uh,
there was a woman dressed as a wizard. Uh, so
as soon as you said that, I pictured her, um,
and that's that's actually how I'm. That's how I'm dressed
(03:19):
right now, too. Um, no, I don't know. Yeah. Um,
I guess I usually just go, you know, as a,
I guess I'm a producer probably first and a songwriter,
probably right in there. That's how I. How I spend
my time.
S1 (03:32):
Well, we're so glad to be chatting today. It's good
to see you. And, um, you know, we want to
get into the song that you chose for this episode
is called Bright Sadness, and I want to get into
the context of of the writing of that and the
circumstances around, you know, obviously the lyrics and the context
of it all, but this is a song that that's
(03:54):
not your like, like if people have heard it, it's
it's like it's Jill Phillips. It's on a Jill Phillips release. Yeah,
he wrote it. Or wrote, like with her.
S2 (04:03):
I wrote it with her.
S1 (04:03):
Yeah, right. And and I, I guess I want to
start there in this podcast where we talk about craft,
the background of songs, and specifically painful or difficult material.
Here you are choosing something that actually involves someone else.
And I wanted to start there with this idea of like,
as you as a writer, deal with your own painful, sad,
(04:28):
difficult material. Have you found that it's hard to invite
people into that to process that with you? Has that
been a help to have that? I wondered how much
you've wrestled with that because you've been at this so long.
I'm assuming that maybe your relationship with that has changed.
S2 (04:45):
It's not hard to invite somebody into it. I think
it probably helps that, um, my family of origin doesn't
really have a lot of embarrassment about Sharing, whatever the
thing is. Um, my mom especially, you know, if she's
thinking about something, she's not going to be too choosy
(05:07):
about who she talks about it with. Um, and so
I think I probably have that a little bit where
I'm not real, like, reticent, you know, about about emotional things.
And I mean, really, I, I have a pretty low
tolerance for, uh, small talk and, um, and so I
guess for me, it's like, I if that's what's if
(05:30):
that's what's going on, then that's probably what I want
to talk about. Um, so it definitely that said, I'm
not totally un choosy about who I would want to
write that kind of material with, but also, I probably
wouldn't want to write very much with somebody that that
I wouldn't want to go to that place with. I
don't write a lot of just, you know, pop music.
(05:52):
I don't write a lot of just music that's just
for fun. I don't write none of that. But it's
not like the first place that I go. Um, and so, yeah,
probably if I was going to write with somebody at all,
it'd be with somebody that I want to talk about
my real life with. Um, and so, uh, yeah, you know,
Jill is a great example of that. Yeah. Jill is
somebody who, when we wrote this song, it was part
(06:15):
of a project that was going to contain a lot
of material that lived at this depth. And, um, Jill,
I suppose, had just maybe just kind of gotten her
certification or license as a therapist. Um, and I had
just been diagnosed with Ms.. And I had just been
(06:40):
through a really, uh, pretty horrific interpersonal thing, um, that
I can't really talk about here. Um, but it had
me pretty raw and, um, and so. Yeah, so we
were in a good place to write that kind of
material together, because I think we were thinking about some
of the same things.
S1 (06:56):
You mentioned, these things that you going through the time
that you're in, the things you're going through. Working with
Jill in that way. Is songwriting a pretty typical outlet
for you to process some of these experiences?
S2 (07:10):
I wouldn't exactly put it that way, I think. Okay,
so yeah, this is getting into my personality that I like. Um, I,
my shive is a German name, and I actually, I mean,
we've been in the United States for, you know, since
the 1700s, but I just think it's still in there. Um, this, uh,
(07:32):
Teutonic thing where, I don't know, I don't think of
music as the place where I feel my emotions. I
think I feel my emotions outside of music. And then
once I get to the songwriting part, it's craft for me.
But I like to write about the emotions that I've felt,
so I don't. It's. Does that make sense? It's, uh,
(07:54):
the the songwriting isn't where I pour my heart out.
I feel my feelings somewhere else. And then I go,
you know what? I think that would be worthy of
a song. And then I, by the time I'm writing,
I'm not that I. That I never feel emotions when
I'm writing, I certainly do, but I by the time
I get to the writing, I'm usually in a more
(08:14):
analytical place about my emotions. And I'm like, okay, that's
an interesting emotion. I bet other people, I think that's
part of the human experience. I think that's part of
the script. Here's how it divides into verses and choruses.
And I'm more in that, you know, puzzle working space
when I'm writing.
S1 (08:32):
Does that change the the feel of the song, the,
the ethos of a song? Because maybe where some songwriters
would come to it and like pour that emotion, sort
of like the first, like even maybe the discovery of
that emotion as part of the songwriting. Do you think
that comes through and then do you think your analytical
approach changes that and that comes through?
S2 (08:53):
It's probably a little bit of both. I mean, I, um,
I don't Crafted words are less powerful than spontaneous emotional words.
They just might be differently. Powerful. Um, I, I find
that in the process of doing the craft part of it,
(09:18):
in the process of, I think of it as like
filling out the worksheet, I have this part of my,
sort of of my craft that is I call I
think of it as stepping on every word, just like
you stand on every word and see if it bears weight.
And the way that that you make them bear weight is,
is you make sure I mean, you make sure that
it's the most, you know, meaning the most accurate word.
(09:39):
But also it's kind of like, does it relate to
any of the other words in the line, or at
least in the verse in terms of assonance, alliteration? And
if it doesn't, then can I change it to make it, uh,
do that. And so my, my, my process of writing
is very much like you write the line and then
(09:59):
you go, okay, what? Which word? You know, how can
I change? Flip the words so that it bears as
much assonance and alliteration as I can make it? Um,
because I think that when you've done that, the line
just feels like it's always been there, like it's always existed.
And I am always amazed at how that process, or
(10:24):
even if forget about stepping on every word and making
sure it does that. Like sometimes if the way that
I find the line is just by seeing how many
syllables from the last line I can rhyme this line with.
Sometimes if I let that determine what the line is,
I write the line and I go, oh my gosh,
I didn't even. I just learned something about this emotion
(10:47):
or about this experience. Like, I, I've been surprised at
how often just doing the craft actually makes you go, whoa!
The truth, the truth was in the craft. Um, yeah.
It's I it makes me. It just kind of makes
me think God made the world in wisdom like that,
you know, like the way that that he encoded things
(11:10):
in the process of writing. I don't know, it just
not to, I think because I have the Holy Spirit
in me. I think that's that's what happens often.
S1 (11:17):
I love that, and I maybe you won't have a
response to this because I'm I'm talking about you, but I,
I feel like in your songs, maybe what you're describing
is I feel like there are so many moments in
your songs where I could lift a couplet as just
a quote in itself, as just like, here's a statement
that's so striking. And so when you're describing, like the
(11:39):
standing on every word, the really like, like working the
craft in such a way that that you're, you know,
like like kneading the dough over and over again or
whatever the analogy there would be. I just, I feel like, oh,
that's like you describing your process sounds so congruent with
my own listening experience, which is beyond just the kind
of listening to the lyrics, but like even the ability
(12:00):
to pull something out and just chew on it outside
the music.
S2 (12:04):
I love that, and that's, I think where I, I,
you know, one of my big heroes lyrically is Stephen Sondheim,
and that's his that's his deal. You know, he's a,
there's a great, uh, great movie about him called Six
by Sondheim. And like, he talks about just being a
essentially a puzzle worker. Like he actually collected puzzles and, uh,
just was very fascinated with songwriting as puzzle working. And
(12:27):
his his lines are very much that way. Um, and
I think it's, it's as much because of the craft
as it is because of the depth of who he was.
S1 (12:35):
Sure, sure. Favorite Sondheim, by the way?
S2 (12:38):
It depends. I do love Into the Woods. I think
Into the Woods is just overall wonderful. And I also
love Sunday in the Park with George a lot. And
then I recognize that Sweeney Todd is absolutely brilliant. It's not.
Sweeney Todd isn't like everyday listening because it's so dark,
but it's really incredible. It's really incredible.
S1 (12:56):
I'm Just curious on that note. Obviously, I want to
talk about bright sadness, but I want to go back
to something you said because I think you had a
really great instinct, and I want to pull it out
because I think it's worth discussing here. You mentioned earlier
in sort of the crafting of the song, you said,
if I feel something, and I think that is part
of the human experience. Like it was almost like if
(13:20):
you go through something, feel something, experience something, and it
seems relatable, connective tissue, then that is what you choose
to write about. Is that like a very intentional thing?
Is that part of the filter? I was hoping you
could go there and maybe define that or suss it out.
S2 (13:37):
Yeah, well, I guess, um, the other I don't know
if this is going to get us closer to the
point or make the point broader, but another way that
it often happens is if something if I have an
experience and I think of a phrase related to that
experience pops into my head, or I hear it or
I say it and I go, oh, that's a title,
(13:57):
you know, like Sandra McCracken and I have a project
called The Still Point. And there's a song on there
called What Is. And I just had the title What
Is Forever and What Is was attached in my mind
to the acceptance of things as they are, you know, and,
and I and I think that, that the fact that
it could have a title that's so, you know, succinct
(14:19):
two syllables and it attaches to something that I think is,
of course. Yeah, we're all dealing with that. Like, am
I willing to accept my life as it is and
not as I wish it was? Um, so, uh, yeah,
I do think with some of the things we're talking about,
some of the things related to sadness, um, or or
(14:42):
hard things, I feel like if you can, if you
can identify it in the life of Christ, a sadness
that he experienced, then it's probably that's probably a big
that's probably enough of a key part of the script
of being alive that it's worth writing about. Like betrayal,
(15:04):
being misunderstood. Being abandoned by your friends when you needed them. Pain?
S1 (15:11):
Yeah.
S2 (15:12):
You know, if if it's if it's one of those things,
then it's probably if you're a Christian, you're being made
like Jesus. And if you're so, then if you're experiencing
being abandoned as a Christian, then it's part of the
script of becoming like Jesus. And so it's probably it's
(15:33):
probably worth writing about.
S1 (15:34):
I love that almost as a as a segue here,
because Bright Sadness is a real invitation into that. Um,
you know, it's it's the from the opening lines, this, this, um,
asking this bright sadness or, or other ways in which
it's addressed to sort of have, you know, you have
your way in me. Jill Angel sings. And so, you know,
(15:58):
I know even for me personally, like the last the
last month has has included some real like some health
scares and some real, like, things we're having to face
down right now, some other interpersonal stuff with our with
our son, whatever. And not to get into that, but
I'm just thinking, like when I'm listening to this song,
I'm like, no, no, no, I'm thinking the opposite. Like, oh,
(16:19):
bright sadness head the other way. You know, last year
was already bad enough and and yet realizing, you know,
like it is what you're saying, you know, like, if I,
if I have to drink from this cup, you know, like,
let's do it all the way.
S2 (16:32):
Well, I'm right there with you. Like I yeah, I hadn't,
I hadn't thought about this song in a while. And
when we landed on this one, it was helpful for
me to think about the lyric and remember that, that
we said that. That we wrote that because, yeah, I've
certainly got some things that came down the pike for
me in the last couple years that I'm still just
(16:54):
not happy about. And. Hearing that lyric and going, okay,
I you know, I at one point I invited that
kind of sadness to do what it was supposed to do. So, okay,
I need to I need to, um, submit myself to
this thing I actually do. I feel like that, um,
that when I heard that lyric again, it reminded me
(17:16):
of this other song I wrote called listen that ends
with this verse that's like my bones are all bells
to be rung. My nerves are attuned and tight. So
come knock the air from my lungs out of out
over the chords in my windpipe. My skin pulled taut
like a drum. I am bracing myself for the strike.
Waiting like a song to be sung. Hidden in the
cleft of the night. Um. And it seemed like a
(17:36):
similar kind of invitation. It's like the Lieutenant Dan tied
to the mast thing. Like, come on. Like, um. But
maybe it's a different thing because that's defiant. This is
more like a. All right, let's let's have at it
if this is what we're doing, you know, uh, God,
if this is how you work, let's, I guess, just
get it over with. Actually, it's funny because I was
(17:57):
thinking about this podcast as in the shower last night
and I do this thing in the where I, uh,
take a, I take cold showers, but it's like, intermittently cold.
So I stand there under the hot water and I
think I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take a cold
shower tonight. There's no way. And then at some point,
I'll just go. Here we go. You know, just, like,
(18:19):
turn the turn it cold. And I'm like. It's like,
bring on the pain, you know? Um, anyway.
S1 (18:26):
Is this the cold shower?
S2 (18:28):
Yeah, the cold shower is the pain. Yeah.
S1 (18:31):
Finish that phrase you said. But I do that because.
S2 (18:33):
Oh, I do it because I. I think it's good
for me. I feel good after a cold shower. I
feel invigorated. And I like my some of my symptoms
related to my Ms. feel better afterward. And so I just,
you know, you got to go through it.
S1 (18:47):
Do you remember writing this with Jill and any conversation
around even that idea of inviting in and having that
kind of relationship with suffering and the way you wanted
to frame it.
S2 (18:59):
I sadly, the one, the one drawback about talking about
this song is I don't remember all of it, but
I do remember we were on the behold tour and
we found a Sunday school classroom or something and wrote
the first verse or so of this song. And I
think that she brought the idea in. I think she
(19:20):
had gotten that phrase bright sadness from somewhere. Um, you
might have to have another episode to ask her where
it came from. Um, but she brought it in, and
then I think we we we went from there.
S1 (19:31):
Was it hard for you to relate to that, or
was that your attitude, like, with some of these things
that you've mentioned?
S2 (19:38):
Yeah, it was my it was my attitude. Yeah. Yeah.
The thing about Ms., about that diagnosis is like, I've
been pretty fortunate so far with my Ms.. Um, and
I'm really grateful for that. Um, when I was diagnosed,
I was, I was feeling worse than I am now. Um,
But the the experience of that diagnosis was like, you know,
(19:59):
when you're expecting a baby, you like, you get a
nursery ready and you buy the stuff and you decorate
the room. It was like that. That mis diagnosis was
like finding out I was pregnant with grief. It was
like it was kind of this like, okay, it's time
to nest for suffering. Um, because, you know, and thankfully so,
(20:22):
so I thankfully a lot, a lot of that hasn't landed.
And I maybe I'm maybe very fortunate it may not
land in the way that I, you know, was preparing
myself for. But definitely after that diagnosis I went, okay, let's,
let's build a new room in my, in my heart for,
you know, all kinds of bad outcomes. And so, um,
(20:43):
I was not reluctant to write this because I think
that's where I was. I was kind of going like,
all right, if this is if this is, uh, going
to enter my life, you know, Out. I want to
receive it as you know, as a welcome guest.
S1 (20:59):
Which is hard to do, but ultimately where you want
to meet it.
S2 (21:02):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, and it's easier said
than done. And again, I mean, it's like I've had
I've had a fairly easy time of it so far.
So like them, those are big words. But you know,
we'll see how I do. I'm reading job right now.
So it's just, you know, so it's like you you
can say those things until it's until you're in it
(21:23):
and then it's just a different thing. Right.
S1 (21:25):
Yeah. In terms of anything else in the song, I mean,
like any other like memories come to mind, any, any
prompts or thoughts that you want to say about it.
S2 (21:33):
Well, I think we just I think we found the
chorus line together probably on that first in that first
writing session. Um, the if you know, if I have
to fall, then let me fall deeper into love. Um,
and yeah, I, I want suffering to generally make me
(21:55):
softer and like, um. And I recognize that, like, actually,
that's what's part of what's good about hearing this right
now is I think some, some suffering that I've been
through recently is still, um, there's that middle place. There's another, um,
(22:15):
set of lines on that same EP at the end
of a song called Things Aren't Always What They Seem
that Jill and I also wrote and it's, you know,
these things aren't always what they seem might be. Jill
and I were both going through some interpersonal things at
that time, and I think that song in general is
maybe her story a little bit more than mine, until
(22:36):
the last bit. And the last bit is my story.
And it's, you know, I'm asking myself, what did I learn, uh,
what to let in, what to take in and what
to let burn. When I tried to fix it, I
took it too far. There's such a risk in dropping
your guard. I'll take them both with me. Serpent and dove.
Knowledge and innocence. Wisdom and love, uh, that I'd come
(22:57):
out stronger. This goes back to Jill. This is Jill's
line that I. That I'd come out stronger, I couldn't believe.
But things aren't always what they seem. Um. And, you know,
that's that describes that. That place where you're still in
the suffering and angry about it. Um, and I mentioned job.
(23:18):
One of the things that I like about job is
that it presents wisdom as I am learning wisdom to be,
which is not always pretty, not neat, and not always
resulting in a clean outcome for you. And, you know,
(23:43):
as as I was writing those lines, I just rattled off,
I was I was on the tail end of an
interpersonal thing that just I was going I literally my
what I kept saying in my prayers was what did
we learn here, God? Like, what am I supposed to
learn from this? Am I supposed to learn that I
need to be more guarded and that I need to, like,
(24:05):
trust people less and that, you know, and and that
may not be exactly how I'd put it, but a
little bit. Yeah. Was the answer like something like that.
There might be a better way to put it than that,
but something like yeah, yeah, don't give your pearls to swine. Don't, don't,
don't give your heart to everybody. If you're listening to
this and you think I'm talking about you, I didn't
(24:26):
just call you a swine. I'm just. I'm just. I'm
just thinking of, you know, like. Yeah, who do we
who do we give what to? So, you know, I
think there's that. That's where you live when you're going
through the suffering and maybe even shortly after, or maybe
for a while after. But hopefully there comes this point
(24:47):
where you look in the mirror and you like what
you see again. You look in your eyes and you
like what you see And I think that I had
a season like that recently where I kind of like
I watched the dust settle on something, and I looked
in the mirror one day and I looked in my
(25:10):
eyes and I was like, oh, I look sadder than
I used to. And I was like, and I like it.
I like it didn't feel wrong. It felt right. It
felt like I should be sadder than I used to be. Um,
and happy and more joyful, you know, both, um, and I,
I was with Sandra McCracken, and she said something similar.
(25:36):
She said, I drew a picture of myself the other
day and my eyes looked old and older. I don't
want to put words in her mouth. She probably said
it more eloquently like that than that. Um, uh, but she's,
you know, she expressed a similar like it felt right.
And um, and so I resonated with that and said,
(26:00):
said my, you know, what I had just said to you?
And she said, now just imagine what it will be
like to look in Jesus eyes after all that he
has suffered and, um, all that he has suffered with,
you know, not only his own sufferings, but also all
the people that he's walked with. And, uh, to look
(26:24):
in his eyes. There must just be such depths of
all of it, you know, sadness and joy like mirth
and solemnity and all the, you know, all these things.
S1 (26:35):
Ben, I would love for you to, um, just I mean,
we've talked about the song so much. I feel like
a lot of people are going to be like, let
me hear like. Like I've never heard it before. Or
to listen anew, if you would. Why don't you take
us into it?
S2 (26:48):
Sure. Hey, uh, if you're just tuning in, I'm Ben Shive.
This is a song I wrote with Jill Phillips called
Bright Sadness. It's on an EP that we made together
that I produced with her a few years ago, called
Deeper Into Love.
S3 (27:11):
Do your work in me. Or. Bear the fruit of peace.
(27:38):
Drink it all. And let me fall. Deeper in Deeper
into love. Oh! Boy. What a price to pay. Make
(28:33):
another away. Then let me drink it all. If I
have to fall. Then let me fall deeper into. Deeper
(28:59):
into the. Dark. You are taking me.
S1 (30:31):
You've been listening to the Deepest Cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
Bright sadness is the kind of phrase that stops you cold.
(00:23):
It's two words that shouldn't belong together, but somehow they
name something deeply true. It's the paradox of holding sorrow
and hope in the same breath. And when Jill Phillips
brought it to the writing room, Ben Shive says he
knew it was special. Now, at the time, Ben was reeling,
newly diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, recovering from a personal crisis,
(00:45):
and immersed in the study of trauma. The phrase landed
like a lifeline. It became his way to name the
ache while still reaching for grace. Now, Ben's no stranger
to helping others give language to the deepest parts of life.
He's written with and produced albums for the likes of
Steven Curtis Chapman, Sandra McCracken, Andrew Peterson, The Grey Havens,
(01:06):
colony House, so many others, all while also crafting his
own acclaimed solo work. On this episode of The Deepest Cut,
I sat down with Ben to unpack the making of
the song Bright Sadness, a co-write with Jill from her
21 album Deeper Into Love. Ben shared how songwriting isn't
where he processes pain, it's what happens after. Once the
(01:30):
grief is name, his real work begins. Rhyme. Structure. Precision. Honesty.
It's a conversation about the discipline of hope and the
courage to stay open to sorrow without letting it have
the final word. Here's my conversation with Ben Shive on
The Deepest Cut. Hello and welcome to The Deepest Cut.
(02:06):
I'm your host, Matt Conner. Today's episode I'm here with.
I should have asked you this beforehand. By the way,
Ben Shive, welcome to the show. Thank you. I want
to introduce you in some way, but I feel like
I was actually thinking I wanted to use. I wanted
to use the word wizard, but then I didn't want to, like,
embarrass you or make, like, sound doofus in any way.
(02:28):
But it's like. It's like, uh oh, yeah, he he
plays with all these people. He writes for all these people.
He's got his own song craft producer over here. You
work with so many people that people love. And then
I'm also thinking that maybe people don't even know about
your own catalog. Or at least some people won't. And
I just thought, like, how do you put all that
together in a succinct way? And then I was going
(02:51):
to say some sort of musical wizard, and then here
I am, making it even longer than that. Anyway. How
do you normally like what do you normally tell people?
S2 (02:59):
Uh, you know, Wizard is fine. We were we were
we were in, uh, in Gatlinburg yesterday and we went
to like, a putt putt place. And there was an actual, uh,
there was a woman dressed as a wizard. Uh, so
as soon as you said that, I pictured her, um,
and that's that's actually how I'm. That's how I'm dressed
(03:19):
right now, too. Um, no, I don't know. Yeah. Um,
I guess I usually just go, you know, as a,
I guess I'm a producer probably first and a songwriter,
probably right in there. That's how I. How I spend
my time.
S1 (03:32):
Well, we're so glad to be chatting today. It's good
to see you. And, um, you know, we want to
get into the song that you chose for this episode
is called Bright Sadness, and I want to get into
the context of of the writing of that and the
circumstances around, you know, obviously the lyrics and the context
of it all, but this is a song that that's
(03:54):
not your like, like if people have heard it, it's
it's like it's Jill Phillips. It's on a Jill Phillips release. Yeah,
he wrote it. Or wrote, like with her.
S2 (04:03):
I wrote it with her.
S1 (04:03):
Yeah, right. And and I, I guess I want to
start there in this podcast where we talk about craft,
the background of songs, and specifically painful or difficult material.
Here you are choosing something that actually involves someone else.
And I wanted to start there with this idea of like,
as you as a writer, deal with your own painful, sad,
(04:28):
difficult material. Have you found that it's hard to invite
people into that to process that with you? Has that
been a help to have that? I wondered how much
you've wrestled with that because you've been at this so long.
I'm assuming that maybe your relationship with that has changed.
S2 (04:45):
It's not hard to invite somebody into it. I think
it probably helps that, um, my family of origin doesn't
really have a lot of embarrassment about Sharing, whatever the
thing is. Um, my mom especially, you know, if she's
thinking about something, she's not going to be too choosy
(05:07):
about who she talks about it with. Um, and so
I think I probably have that a little bit where
I'm not real, like, reticent, you know, about about emotional things.
And I mean, really, I, I have a pretty low
tolerance for, uh, small talk and, um, and so I
guess for me, it's like, I if that's what's if
(05:30):
that's what's going on, then that's probably what I want
to talk about. Um, so it definitely that said, I'm
not totally un choosy about who I would want to
write that kind of material with, but also, I probably
wouldn't want to write very much with somebody that that
I wouldn't want to go to that place with. I
don't write a lot of just, you know, pop music.
(05:52):
I don't write a lot of just music that's just
for fun. I don't write none of that. But it's
not like the first place that I go. Um, and so, yeah,
probably if I was going to write with somebody at all,
it'd be with somebody that I want to talk about
my real life with. Um, and so, uh, yeah, you know,
Jill is a great example of that. Yeah. Jill is
somebody who, when we wrote this song, it was part
(06:15):
of a project that was going to contain a lot
of material that lived at this depth. And, um, Jill,
I suppose, had just maybe just kind of gotten her
certification or license as a therapist. Um, and I had
just been diagnosed with Ms.. And I had just been
(06:40):
through a really, uh, pretty horrific interpersonal thing, um, that
I can't really talk about here. Um, but it had
me pretty raw and, um, and so. Yeah, so we
were in a good place to write that kind of
material together, because I think we were thinking about some
of the same things.
S1 (06:56):
You mentioned, these things that you going through the time
that you're in, the things you're going through. Working with
Jill in that way. Is songwriting a pretty typical outlet
for you to process some of these experiences?
S2 (07:10):
I wouldn't exactly put it that way, I think. Okay,
so yeah, this is getting into my personality that I like. Um, I,
my shive is a German name, and I actually, I mean,
we've been in the United States for, you know, since
the 1700s, but I just think it's still in there. Um, this, uh,
(07:32):
Teutonic thing where, I don't know, I don't think of
music as the place where I feel my emotions. I
think I feel my emotions outside of music. And then
once I get to the songwriting part, it's craft for me.
But I like to write about the emotions that I've felt,
so I don't. It's. Does that make sense? It's, uh,
(07:54):
the the songwriting isn't where I pour my heart out.
I feel my feelings somewhere else. And then I go,
you know what? I think that would be worthy of
a song. And then I, by the time I'm writing,
I'm not that I. That I never feel emotions when
I'm writing, I certainly do, but I by the time
I get to the writing, I'm usually in a more
(08:14):
analytical place about my emotions. And I'm like, okay, that's
an interesting emotion. I bet other people, I think that's
part of the human experience. I think that's part of
the script. Here's how it divides into verses and choruses.
And I'm more in that, you know, puzzle working space
when I'm writing.
S1 (08:32):
Does that change the the feel of the song, the,
the ethos of a song? Because maybe where some songwriters
would come to it and like pour that emotion, sort
of like the first, like even maybe the discovery of
that emotion as part of the songwriting. Do you think
that comes through and then do you think your analytical
approach changes that and that comes through?
S2 (08:53):
It's probably a little bit of both. I mean, I, um,
I don't Crafted words are less powerful than spontaneous emotional words.
They just might be differently. Powerful. Um, I, I find
that in the process of doing the craft part of it,
(09:18):
in the process of, I think of it as like
filling out the worksheet, I have this part of my,
sort of of my craft that is I call I
think of it as stepping on every word, just like
you stand on every word and see if it bears weight.
And the way that that you make them bear weight is,
is you make sure I mean, you make sure that
it's the most, you know, meaning the most accurate word.
(09:39):
But also it's kind of like, does it relate to
any of the other words in the line, or at
least in the verse in terms of assonance, alliteration? And
if it doesn't, then can I change it to make it, uh,
do that. And so my, my, my process of writing
is very much like you write the line and then
(09:59):
you go, okay, what? Which word? You know, how can
I change? Flip the words so that it bears as
much assonance and alliteration as I can make it? Um,
because I think that when you've done that, the line
just feels like it's always been there, like it's always existed.
And I am always amazed at how that process, or
(10:24):
even if forget about stepping on every word and making
sure it does that. Like sometimes if the way that
I find the line is just by seeing how many
syllables from the last line I can rhyme this line with.
Sometimes if I let that determine what the line is,
I write the line and I go, oh my gosh,
I didn't even. I just learned something about this emotion
(10:47):
or about this experience. Like, I, I've been surprised at
how often just doing the craft actually makes you go, whoa!
The truth, the truth was in the craft. Um, yeah.
It's I it makes me. It just kind of makes
me think God made the world in wisdom like that,
you know, like the way that that he encoded things
(11:10):
in the process of writing. I don't know, it just
not to, I think because I have the Holy Spirit
in me. I think that's that's what happens often.
S1 (11:17):
I love that, and I maybe you won't have a
response to this because I'm I'm talking about you, but I,
I feel like in your songs, maybe what you're describing
is I feel like there are so many moments in
your songs where I could lift a couplet as just
a quote in itself, as just like, here's a statement
that's so striking. And so when you're describing, like the
(11:39):
standing on every word, the really like, like working the
craft in such a way that that you're, you know,
like like kneading the dough over and over again or
whatever the analogy there would be. I just, I feel like, oh,
that's like you describing your process sounds so congruent with
my own listening experience, which is beyond just the kind
of listening to the lyrics, but like even the ability
(12:00):
to pull something out and just chew on it outside
the music.
S2 (12:04):
I love that, and that's, I think where I, I,
you know, one of my big heroes lyrically is Stephen Sondheim,
and that's his that's his deal. You know, he's a,
there's a great, uh, great movie about him called Six
by Sondheim. And like, he talks about just being a
essentially a puzzle worker. Like he actually collected puzzles and, uh,
just was very fascinated with songwriting as puzzle working. And
(12:27):
his his lines are very much that way. Um, and
I think it's, it's as much because of the craft
as it is because of the depth of who he was.
S1 (12:35):
Sure, sure. Favorite Sondheim, by the way?
S2 (12:38):
It depends. I do love Into the Woods. I think
Into the Woods is just overall wonderful. And I also
love Sunday in the Park with George a lot. And
then I recognize that Sweeney Todd is absolutely brilliant. It's not.
Sweeney Todd isn't like everyday listening because it's so dark,
but it's really incredible. It's really incredible.
S1 (12:56):
I'm Just curious on that note. Obviously, I want to
talk about bright sadness, but I want to go back
to something you said because I think you had a
really great instinct, and I want to pull it out
because I think it's worth discussing here. You mentioned earlier
in sort of the crafting of the song, you said,
if I feel something, and I think that is part
of the human experience. Like it was almost like if
(13:20):
you go through something, feel something, experience something, and it
seems relatable, connective tissue, then that is what you choose
to write about. Is that like a very intentional thing?
Is that part of the filter? I was hoping you
could go there and maybe define that or suss it out.
S2 (13:37):
Yeah, well, I guess, um, the other I don't know
if this is going to get us closer to the
point or make the point broader, but another way that
it often happens is if something if I have an
experience and I think of a phrase related to that
experience pops into my head, or I hear it or
I say it and I go, oh, that's a title,
(13:57):
you know, like Sandra McCracken and I have a project
called The Still Point. And there's a song on there
called What Is. And I just had the title What
Is Forever and What Is was attached in my mind
to the acceptance of things as they are, you know, and,
and I and I think that, that the fact that
it could have a title that's so, you know, succinct
(14:19):
two syllables and it attaches to something that I think is,
of course. Yeah, we're all dealing with that. Like, am
I willing to accept my life as it is and
not as I wish it was? Um, so, uh, yeah,
I do think with some of the things we're talking about,
some of the things related to sadness, um, or or
(14:42):
hard things, I feel like if you can, if you
can identify it in the life of Christ, a sadness
that he experienced, then it's probably that's probably a big
that's probably enough of a key part of the script
of being alive that it's worth writing about. Like betrayal,
(15:04):
being misunderstood. Being abandoned by your friends when you needed them. Pain?
S1 (15:11):
Yeah.
S2 (15:12):
You know, if if it's if it's one of those things,
then it's probably if you're a Christian, you're being made
like Jesus. And if you're so, then if you're experiencing
being abandoned as a Christian, then it's part of the
script of becoming like Jesus. And so it's probably it's
(15:33):
probably worth writing about.
S1 (15:34):
I love that almost as a as a segue here,
because Bright Sadness is a real invitation into that. Um,
you know, it's it's the from the opening lines, this, this, um,
asking this bright sadness or, or other ways in which
it's addressed to sort of have, you know, you have
your way in me. Jill Angel sings. And so, you know,
(15:58):
I know even for me personally, like the last the
last month has has included some real like some health
scares and some real, like, things we're having to face
down right now, some other interpersonal stuff with our with
our son, whatever. And not to get into that, but
I'm just thinking, like when I'm listening to this song,
I'm like, no, no, no, I'm thinking the opposite. Like, oh,
(16:19):
bright sadness head the other way. You know, last year
was already bad enough and and yet realizing, you know,
like it is what you're saying, you know, like, if I,
if I have to drink from this cup, you know, like,
let's do it all the way.
S2 (16:32):
Well, I'm right there with you. Like I yeah, I hadn't,
I hadn't thought about this song in a while. And
when we landed on this one, it was helpful for
me to think about the lyric and remember that, that
we said that. That we wrote that because, yeah, I've
certainly got some things that came down the pike for
me in the last couple years that I'm still just
(16:54):
not happy about. And. Hearing that lyric and going, okay,
I you know, I at one point I invited that
kind of sadness to do what it was supposed to do. So, okay,
I need to I need to, um, submit myself to
this thing I actually do. I feel like that, um,
that when I heard that lyric again, it reminded me
(17:16):
of this other song I wrote called listen that ends
with this verse that's like my bones are all bells
to be rung. My nerves are attuned and tight. So
come knock the air from my lungs out of out
over the chords in my windpipe. My skin pulled taut
like a drum. I am bracing myself for the strike.
Waiting like a song to be sung. Hidden in the
cleft of the night. Um. And it seemed like a
(17:36):
similar kind of invitation. It's like the Lieutenant Dan tied
to the mast thing. Like, come on. Like, um. But
maybe it's a different thing because that's defiant. This is
more like a. All right, let's let's have at it
if this is what we're doing, you know, uh, God,
if this is how you work, let's, I guess, just
get it over with. Actually, it's funny because I was
(17:57):
thinking about this podcast as in the shower last night
and I do this thing in the where I, uh,
take a, I take cold showers, but it's like, intermittently cold.
So I stand there under the hot water and I
think I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take a cold
shower tonight. There's no way. And then at some point,
I'll just go. Here we go. You know, just, like,
(18:19):
turn the turn it cold. And I'm like. It's like,
bring on the pain, you know? Um, anyway.
S1 (18:26):
Is this the cold shower?
S2 (18:28):
Yeah, the cold shower is the pain. Yeah.
S1 (18:31):
Finish that phrase you said. But I do that because.
S2 (18:33):
Oh, I do it because I. I think it's good
for me. I feel good after a cold shower. I
feel invigorated. And I like my some of my symptoms
related to my Ms. feel better afterward. And so I just,
you know, you got to go through it.
S1 (18:47):
Do you remember writing this with Jill and any conversation
around even that idea of inviting in and having that
kind of relationship with suffering and the way you wanted
to frame it.
S2 (18:59):
I sadly, the one, the one drawback about talking about
this song is I don't remember all of it, but
I do remember we were on the behold tour and
we found a Sunday school classroom or something and wrote
the first verse or so of this song. And I
think that she brought the idea in. I think she
(19:20):
had gotten that phrase bright sadness from somewhere. Um, you
might have to have another episode to ask her where
it came from. Um, but she brought it in, and
then I think we we we went from there.
S1 (19:31):
Was it hard for you to relate to that, or
was that your attitude, like, with some of these things
that you've mentioned?
S2 (19:38):
Yeah, it was my it was my attitude. Yeah. Yeah.
The thing about Ms., about that diagnosis is like, I've
been pretty fortunate so far with my Ms.. Um, and
I'm really grateful for that. Um, when I was diagnosed,
I was, I was feeling worse than I am now. Um,
But the the experience of that diagnosis was like, you know,
(19:59):
when you're expecting a baby, you like, you get a
nursery ready and you buy the stuff and you decorate
the room. It was like that. That mis diagnosis was
like finding out I was pregnant with grief. It was
like it was kind of this like, okay, it's time
to nest for suffering. Um, because, you know, and thankfully so,
(20:22):
so I thankfully a lot, a lot of that hasn't landed.
And I maybe I'm maybe very fortunate it may not
land in the way that I, you know, was preparing
myself for. But definitely after that diagnosis I went, okay, let's,
let's build a new room in my, in my heart for,
you know, all kinds of bad outcomes. And so, um,
(20:43):
I was not reluctant to write this because I think
that's where I was. I was kind of going like,
all right, if this is if this is, uh, going
to enter my life, you know, Out. I want to
receive it as you know, as a welcome guest.
S1 (20:59):
Which is hard to do, but ultimately where you want
to meet it.
S2 (21:02):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, and it's easier said
than done. And again, I mean, it's like I've had
I've had a fairly easy time of it so far.
So like them, those are big words. But you know,
we'll see how I do. I'm reading job right now.
So it's just, you know, so it's like you you
can say those things until it's until you're in it
(21:23):
and then it's just a different thing. Right.
S1 (21:25):
Yeah. In terms of anything else in the song, I mean,
like any other like memories come to mind, any, any
prompts or thoughts that you want to say about it.
S2 (21:33):
Well, I think we just I think we found the
chorus line together probably on that first in that first
writing session. Um, the if you know, if I have
to fall, then let me fall deeper into love. Um,
and yeah, I, I want suffering to generally make me
(21:55):
softer and like, um. And I recognize that, like, actually,
that's what's part of what's good about hearing this right
now is I think some, some suffering that I've been
through recently is still, um, there's that middle place. There's another, um,
(22:15):
set of lines on that same EP at the end
of a song called Things Aren't Always What They Seem
that Jill and I also wrote and it's, you know,
these things aren't always what they seem might be. Jill
and I were both going through some interpersonal things at
that time, and I think that song in general is
maybe her story a little bit more than mine, until
(22:36):
the last bit. And the last bit is my story.
And it's, you know, I'm asking myself, what did I learn, uh,
what to let in, what to take in and what
to let burn. When I tried to fix it, I
took it too far. There's such a risk in dropping
your guard. I'll take them both with me. Serpent and dove.
Knowledge and innocence. Wisdom and love, uh, that I'd come
(22:57):
out stronger. This goes back to Jill. This is Jill's
line that I. That I'd come out stronger, I couldn't believe.
But things aren't always what they seem. Um. And, you know,
that's that describes that. That place where you're still in
the suffering and angry about it. Um, and I mentioned job.
(23:18):
One of the things that I like about job is
that it presents wisdom as I am learning wisdom to be,
which is not always pretty, not neat, and not always
resulting in a clean outcome for you. And, you know,
(23:43):
as as I was writing those lines, I just rattled off,
I was I was on the tail end of an
interpersonal thing that just I was going I literally my
what I kept saying in my prayers was what did
we learn here, God? Like, what am I supposed to
learn from this? Am I supposed to learn that I
need to be more guarded and that I need to, like,
(24:05):
trust people less and that, you know, and and that
may not be exactly how I'd put it, but a
little bit. Yeah. Was the answer like something like that.
There might be a better way to put it than that,
but something like yeah, yeah, don't give your pearls to swine. Don't, don't,
don't give your heart to everybody. If you're listening to
this and you think I'm talking about you, I didn't
(24:26):
just call you a swine. I'm just. I'm just. I'm
just thinking of, you know, like. Yeah, who do we
who do we give what to? So, you know, I
think there's that. That's where you live when you're going
through the suffering and maybe even shortly after, or maybe
for a while after. But hopefully there comes this point
(24:47):
where you look in the mirror and you like what
you see again. You look in your eyes and you
like what you see And I think that I had
a season like that recently where I kind of like
I watched the dust settle on something, and I looked
in the mirror one day and I looked in my
(25:10):
eyes and I was like, oh, I look sadder than
I used to. And I was like, and I like it.
I like it didn't feel wrong. It felt right. It
felt like I should be sadder than I used to be. Um,
and happy and more joyful, you know, both, um, and I,
I was with Sandra McCracken, and she said something similar.
(25:36):
She said, I drew a picture of myself the other
day and my eyes looked old and older. I don't
want to put words in her mouth. She probably said
it more eloquently like that than that. Um, uh, but she's,
you know, she expressed a similar like it felt right.
And um, and so I resonated with that and said,
(26:00):
said my, you know, what I had just said to you?
And she said, now just imagine what it will be
like to look in Jesus eyes after all that he
has suffered and, um, all that he has suffered with,
you know, not only his own sufferings, but also all
the people that he's walked with. And, uh, to look
(26:24):
in his eyes. There must just be such depths of
all of it, you know, sadness and joy like mirth
and solemnity and all the, you know, all these things.
S1 (26:35):
Ben, I would love for you to, um, just I mean,
we've talked about the song so much. I feel like
a lot of people are going to be like, let
me hear like. Like I've never heard it before. Or
to listen anew, if you would. Why don't you take
us into it?
S2 (26:48):
Sure. Hey, uh, if you're just tuning in, I'm Ben Shive.
This is a song I wrote with Jill Phillips called
Bright Sadness. It's on an EP that we made together
that I produced with her a few years ago, called
Deeper Into Love.
S3 (27:11):
Do your work in me. Or. Bear the fruit of peace.
(27:38):
Drink it all. And let me fall. Deeper in Deeper
into love. Oh! Boy. What a price to pay. Make
(28:33):
another away. Then let me drink it all. If I
have to fall. Then let me fall deeper into. Deeper
(28:59):
into the. Dark. You are taking me.
S1 (30:31):
You've been listening to the Deepest Cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!