March 14, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of The Deepest Cut, singer-songwriter Brandon Heath opens up about the heartbreak of the 2023 Covenant School tragedy in Nashville—a loss that hit close to home. He shares the story behind his song, "Scars" and how a songwriting session with some friends turned into a raw and vulnerable time of processing the grief, the pain, the anger, and confusion resulting from the traumatic event.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
In the spring of 2023, a 28 year old male
walked into the Covenant School in the Green Hills area
(00:23):
of Nashville, Tennessee, armed with an assault rifle and two
smaller guns, and opened fire as he walked through several
levels of the school, killing three nine year old children
and three adults, a custodian, a substitute teacher, and the
head of the school. In the wake of such senseless violence,
singer songwriter Brandon Heath felt overwhelmed with the rest of Nashville.
(00:44):
His own children were set to attend covenant and his
close friend was the chaplain. The private school was near
the center of his own personal community there in Music City,
in the face of such overwhelming despair. Heath eventually found
his way to songwriting, he says, as a way to
process and heal. Much like he always has over the
course of nine studio albums, his latest, entitled The Ache,
(01:07):
was the resulting release, and specifically a song named scars
was birthed out of the devastation of that day. As
Brandon told me on this episode of The Deepest Cut,
it was a songwriting session with some friends that turned
into a raw and vulnerable time of processing the grief
and the pain, the anger and the confusion that resulted
(01:28):
from such a traumatic event. Yet his willingness to voice
his doubts, to be raw with God, as he describes it,
allowed for a song that's provided at least some measure
of healing and perspective for those affected by such a
tragic loss. On this episode of The Deepest Cut, I
sat down with the five time Grammy nominee and eight
time Dove Award winner to discuss Brandon's perspective on artistic
(01:51):
responsibility and how songwriting helps shine a light in such
an all consuming dark time. Stay tuned for our conversation
with Brandon Heath. Hello and welcome to the Deepest Cut.
(02:17):
My name is Matt Conner. I'm your host. Across from
me today, Brandon Heath, celebrated singer songwriter for. Do we
say how long you've been at this? Much, much longer than.
Let me just ask you this to start. First of all,
do you want to say hello? I should give you
the chance to say hello.
S2 (02:34):
Hey, hey. Hello. Hello, everybody. Uh, it has been. It
has been a minute that I've been playing, but not
as long as Andy Peterson.
S1 (02:44):
That's true, that's true. But I'm sure you've seen a
number of people that you've shared the stage with that
you've toured with, that you've written like come and go
in that time, and then you're still very much at it.
S2 (02:56):
Still here, the Lord willing. I'm still here.
S1 (03:00):
Brandon, I want to start actually with a quote around
the new song that you put out with, like the
press of the new album, like in the bio and
things like that, because I want to start with a more,
with a bigger picture. But this quote really gave me something,
I think, a good hook to lean in here with. Here's,
here's what you said about the song scars, which is
going to be the song that we highlight on this episode.
You said it's one of my favorite songwriting experiences I've
(03:22):
ever had, because I feel like in my grief, God
showed up and gave me medicine to disseminate immediately to
my friends. That song reminded me of our responsibility as
artists to say the things we don't know how to say.
Put it to music and then get it out to
the masses as soon as possible to let it do
(03:42):
its healing work.
S2 (03:44):
Mhm.
S1 (03:44):
We talked about the longevity you've had in the industry,
and that sounds like a very veteran thing to say,
that you've learned the way your music works with its
audience and in general have learned some things about the craft.
Can you take me back to 2006, when the debut drops,
and your earliest days of of being a songwriter, singer,
(04:08):
songwriter or artist as a career? Have you always been
aware of that artistic responsibility? Has that been something you've
learned along the way? I can't, I just would love
to hear about that journey from you.
S2 (04:23):
I feel like I have always known about that responsibility
that we have. I remember, I remember early in high
school in an art class, and it says that, um, artists,
their role is to interpret the world as they see it.
(04:44):
And I've never forgotten that. You know, I feel like
that's my my job is to interpret the world as
I see it. And then whether it hits the masses
or not, is really out of my control. You know,
there's there's very few things that I can control, but
I think I can be true to myself and whatever
(05:05):
the language of art or expression that I, that I
speak is, is what will ultimately go into the songs
and hopefully meet people where they are.
S1 (05:19):
Do you remember the first time that you were clued
in to the tangible reality of that? Was there a
first song that you were like, oh my gosh, this
is really creating connective tissue here. People responding in that way.
S2 (05:32):
Mhm. Yeah. So my first I would say my first
big single was I'm not Who I was and it
was the second single I think that they had put
out on me in 2006. The first one was fairly,
you know down the middle, safe if you will, but
even it did pretty well. So, you know, right off
(05:55):
the bat I thought, okay, well, people are liking what
I'm putting out. The label was excited about me. And,
you know, it's always kind of fun to be that
new guy. But the second single that they put out
on me, I was a little nervous about because it
was very specific, very vulnerable. It did not have a chorus,
(06:16):
so it didn't really fit the format of typical songwriting.
I mean, everybody would tell you, you have to have
a chorus, you know, and I would agree, you know,
but I when I wrote that song, I'm not who
I was. I wasn't thinking about any of those things.
It really was a very pure intention of extending forgiveness
(06:39):
to someone from my past who had who had hurt me.
And so when they put it out, uh, people really
connected with it. And I remember so to answer your question,
I was in Houston, Texas. They had been playing it
on Ksbj, which is a larger station in Houston, big listenership,
(07:00):
and I was doing what was called a brown bag
concert at a oh, it was a chick fil A.
So it was it was in the parking lot at
chick fil A.
S1 (07:09):
Wait, are those white bags? Those are white bags, though, right?
S2 (07:12):
Well, you know, call it call it what you will.
A white bag, a white bag concert. But there were
about almost 1500 people who showed up.
S1 (07:23):
You're kidding. At a chick fil A?
S2 (07:25):
Yes, at a chick fil A. And I wasn't really
prepared for that sort of response, but they had opened
up the phone lines a few days prior to people
to say, hey, tell me who you were and who
you are now after having encountered Jesus. And people really
(07:46):
wanted to tell their story. And so I think that's
why what they resonate, what resonated with them from that
song was the phrase I'm not who I was, but
also the vulnerability. And so from the get go in
my career, it was more about vulnerability. And I mean,
(08:09):
that's it. I mean, it was a catchy song. I
just felt so much freedom from the beginning of my career.
To be able to go to a place like that.
S1 (08:18):
That's been the calling card for you the whole time.
It's this blend of melody and, you know, here's the earworm.
You know, the the vehicle in, I guess you will
with the vulnerability there. The balance of that. Has that
always come like pretty easy for you? I mean, is
that kind of what clued you in? Like, I guess
this is what I'm good at. This is what I mean.
Because that's really a labor for for other people where
(08:41):
maybe one comes naturally and, and it's and it's like
a real, like a workmanship to get to the other
side of that.
S2 (08:47):
You know, um, self-sacrifice as far as my own story.
I mean, I can remember since as a kid I've
liked doing that where some people would be scared to
do something like that. I don't know, and listen. Sometimes
I feel like I've overshared about my story. I've had
(09:10):
to learn how to do it a little bit more
low key. Um, because I feel like you can end
up being very vulnerable if you share too much with
too many. You know, I feel like your story. I
feel like there are a few that should know your
whole story, but I don't think it's for everybody, I
(09:32):
really don't. I think it ends up leaving you really
ultra exposed, and I just feel like that's a sacred thing.
That's only for a few, not for everybody.
S1 (09:44):
Can we go inside that? In a couple of ways,
because what I thought you were going to say was
maybe bleeding out like that or being ultra exposed, whatever
that is. I thought you were going to say that's
not good for the audience, maybe in some way, but
you pointed it at you first and said, I think
it's a sacred, sacred thing, almost like for your own sake,
(10:04):
it's only good to share that with a few. Like
what informs that for you? Have you have you felt
burned by that, or like, is there a specific that
you can point to and go.
S2 (10:13):
Okay, I've never felt burned, like nobody's ever betrayed my
confidentiality or whatever.
S1 (10:22):
I guess what informs the sacred term there?
S2 (10:25):
You know, I first read it honestly in Oswald Chambers. Um,
I think he was talking, you know, in My Utmost
for his highest. Oswald Chambers. Right. Is am I saying
that right? Yeah. I think that he gave that in
in one of the excerpts one day. And I tend
to listen to older, wiser people. But I have found
(10:47):
that to be true. Like there was a time when
I was performing and I. I confessed to some sin
to the audience. It felt right at the time. And
then when I left, I almost felt like I had
betrayed myself. You know what I mean? I don't I
don't owe that to them. I don't, and and I
(11:10):
don't think they really needed me to spill my guts
for whatever reason I did. And, you know, I don't
I don't have any regrets. But I do remember feeling like. Brandon, don't.
You don't have to do that. You don't owe that.
You don't owe that to the audience. God is the
place that is you where you can absolutely go as
(11:34):
a confession, you know, with your confession. But I do
feel like there are a few, uh, like, I would have, like,
five guys in my life that really know everything. Maybe six. Um,
I have a men's group that I meet with weekly
where that's kind of the oath. It's the creed that
(11:55):
we have that we. We don't hide anything. And, you know,
that's even that's kind of bold to say because, um,
we all we all have secrets. I think there's a
place for secrets. And sometimes it can feel a little
icky saying secrets, you know? But I feel like there
are a few people, including your spouse, that there needs
(12:19):
to be no secrets from. You know, there's even some
things that my therapist knows that not necessarily even my
closest friends know, but I think as long as you're
known by somebody, uh, then it's good. But letting it
all hang out there, you know, you have these people
that write these tell all, um, memoirs. And, you know,
(12:41):
I guess if you feel like you need to do that,
then go for it. I don't feel like that's really me.
Although I would like to write a memoir someday, I
don't think it needs to be, like, salacious or every detail. Yeah,
like you said, like me bleeding out. I don't think
that's good for anybody. I really don't. It almost feels
(13:03):
like voyeuristic as the reader to to hear things like that. Now,
when it comes to songs, I think I do like
being self-sacrificial, but I think there's an artistic way to
do it.
S1 (13:18):
Take me to the new album, maybe this song through
that lens. Like what? Like, what's a good example from
this batch and maybe even scars itself?
S2 (13:27):
Yeah. The very first song on the record. Um, The Ache.
It was actually the last song that I wrote for
the record.
S1 (13:35):
And ended up being the title track.
S2 (13:37):
Yeah, but I already knew the title. I already knew
that the record was called The Ache, because I was
trying to describe a feeling that I used to have
for my father when I was a kid, uh, when
I when I missed him, there was a season that
my dad was not present in my life. And I
think it's because he was figuring out his own. He
(13:58):
was figuring it out his own priorities and what he
wanted to be about. I think he wanted to be
a dad, but I think he just needed to remove himself,
as we all do sometimes, whether it be a sabbatical or.
But this was like a year and a half, which
is too long to be out of a kid's life. So, um,
(14:18):
my mom passed away last year, so, you know, this
is deep pain for me. Yeah, but I'm also recalling,
when I was a kid, my dad just being gone,
and me seeing this sign from the backyard of my
babysitter's house. We could see the sign of the the
place where my dad worked. And I would go to
(14:40):
the edge of the fence when I was missing him
and I was thinking about him, I would just go
and look at the sign because that's about all I
had of him in that season.
S1 (14:50):
But you knew he was there.
S2 (14:51):
He was probably there at some point during that day. Now, again,
I'm four years old. These are things that a four
year old is not really supposed to think about. But
I vividly remember it. I remember missing him, and I
remember the feeling. It's a physical feeling, the ache. So
when it comes to the song, I knew that I
(15:11):
wanted to write a song, but this was like my
third iteration of the song, and I knew. I knew
what I wanted to say. I just didn't know how
to say it. So I went back to the drawing
board of I'm Not Who I was and wrote it
very autobiographically, you know, very specific to my story and
(15:32):
my experience, and that seemed to be the best way
to do it. So yeah, I'm, I'm really allowing the
person listening in. But I, again, have also seen how
that sort of approach connects to people.
S1 (15:45):
Is that true of your favorite artists as well? Like
your like your own listening experience? Is that littered with
artists who do the same?
S2 (15:53):
Man, that's a great question. I want to say no,
I don't. I know that's I know that's an interesting.
S1 (15:59):
I totally thought that was a softball question where you'd say,
oh yeah, absolutely. But you just totally punted on that one.
S2 (16:06):
Any, any, any question you're going to ask me? I'm
going to answer brutally honest.
S1 (16:12):
Just give me the opposite of what I.
S2 (16:13):
Yeah, I feel like it's my own approach. Now, if
there's things that I'm borrowing from other artists, it's storytelling
because I like I like that sort of format, especially
like in country music. They do such a masterful job
of that. The stuff that really inspires me is really
like heady, like Simon and Garfunkel, the the Indigo Girls,
(16:41):
you know, Very poetic, not on the nose, where I
tend to be more on the nose. And I think
you know that the on the nose quality, I think,
comes from country music, because that's what I love. So, yeah,
I feel like most of the people that I'm inspired
by are very poetic and a little bit more gray
than I than black and white.
S1 (17:03):
Take me inside. We talked about the ache already as
the banner over this new set of songs, but scars
in particular. Can you take us inside the context? You
wrote this with a couple other with a couple other guys, right.
S2 (17:17):
Yeah. Mhm.
S1 (17:18):
What was the writing session for that. Like what was
the what's the context there.
S2 (17:22):
Oh man I love that you're asking it in and
you want me. You're inviting me to go in depth
because I don't think I ever have. So you mentioned
my co-writers Micah Kuiper and Paul Duncan. And so I
want to mention them right up front. So March 27th
of last year of of 23. Sorry. Whenever you're seeing this. Um,
(17:46):
March 27th of 23, there was a shooting at a
small Christian school that is in the neighborhood of where
I live, the Covenant School, 200, 200 kids, uh, sixth
grade and under. So very small, very off the radar
sort of private Christian school, the preschool that my girls
(18:11):
were going to at the time often go to the
go on to the Covenant School. So there's a connection
that way in that regard. But also many of my
friends and their children go there. So there's like already
kind of a personal investment. And we had already committed
to go to covenant, the Covenant School, like a month
(18:32):
prior to the shooting. So the shooting happens on a
Monday and it's easily the dark. One of the darkest
days of my life. It harkens for me personally back
to nine over 11. You know, like I know where
I was. I know what season of life I was in,
(18:54):
you know, for the rest of the country. Yeah, they
saw it on the news. For many private schools around
the country, it it highlighted this vulnerability because so many
of us live in the illusion that, well, if we
pay a certain amount of money and it's Christian, then
we are. We're safe. We don't have to worry about it.
(19:14):
But the Covenant School changed that, and we ended up
on this list. And I say we because my children
now attend that school since last year. So just months
after the the event, we started going there, but also
but already I was invested emotionally. The pastor of the
(19:35):
school or chaplain, if you will. His name is Matthew Sullivan.
Matthew has been a pastor of mine in the past
and I immediately thought about him. I'm not recommending that
you go back and look at the footage, but if
if you remember watching the footage of the police arriving
(19:55):
on site. Matthew would have been the guy handing the
keys to the police officers to go into the school.
So already I'm seeing Matthew. I'm knowing what happened, and
I just can't stop thinking about Matthew because he's the
spiritual leader of the school. So now we're on Thursday.
(20:16):
I had a writing session on Tuesday where I just
couldn't write. I couldn't write anything. So I've got a
writing session on Thursday. I know that I'm writing for
The Ache. So I arrive and on my way, on
my way to the writing session, I get a text
from Matthew just because I was checking in on him
to see how he was doing, and he just said
(20:38):
a few things that were. It was obvious that he's
cemented to the school and the experiences cemented to his life.
You know, he'll never be different. He'll never be the same.
So I walk in with these, with these awesome guys.
My first time writing with Micah Kuiper, who's also the producer,
and I was like, guys, I'm sorry, I can't write
(20:59):
about anything but this. So we're we're three days after
the event very much feeling it. Everybody's confused, everybody's sad.
And I said in the writing session, you know, some
people walk with a limp for the rest of their lives.
It feels like, you know, some of these people lost children,
(21:21):
you know, like the the magnitude of losing a child
is pretty unmatched. But then for the whole community to
be kind of traumatized by it. We're going to walk
with a limp for the rest of our life. And
Paul said, you know, even Jesus had scars that never
went away. And when he said that, I was like,
(21:44):
that's the song, that's the song. So amidst real current
pain and physical tears, the three of us wrote the song,
and I felt the Lord's presence in the room like
I have never felt. And so there is something very
(22:09):
special about the song. By the end of the day,
I had a demo. By the way, the master is
much of what we put down that day. So some
of the some of the vocals, most of the track
are what we wrote that day, which by the end
of the day went to Matthew Pastor Sullivan, which in
(22:30):
turn ended up disseminating throughout the school, helping so many
of those Families, putting words and music to what they
were feeling in that moment and basically says, Lord, I
know you're near. I don't feel you right now. I
feel very sad. I know that I'm going to have
(22:52):
this for the rest of my life, but I'm going
to have faith that you're with me and that you
also get it, because even you had scars that never
went away. So for me, I'm like, what a gift
to have written that song and then to send it
like inject it directly into the pain and for it
to be something that would help people in their moment
(23:15):
of pain. That's that is the sole purpose of music,
you know. So I felt this immense amount of gratitude
to be able to, you know, we all want to
do something when tragedy strikes, you know, and we just
don't have any words, you know. And often we don't
(23:37):
have actions. We're just stopped in our tracks. That's why
so many of us give money, you know, because it's like, well,
at least some somebody knows how to use this here's money.
And it's not like you're paying off your grief so
you feel better. It's just, well, I know this is
(23:59):
a way to help.
S1 (24:00):
By the way, how did you was that? You know,
because typically you write a song. It's got to be,
you know, lay it here, here's labels, maybe focus groups,
radio or whatever, where it's like, what songs do we
line up for singles and get it out there in
some way? But you're talking about an immediate, you said
injection into the surrounding community to, I mean, did you
just have full permission to do whatever there was that
(24:24):
like a conscious effort of like, we're going to write
this and put it out immediately? Was it like after
the songwriting session? You're like, people have to hear this
right now. And so screw it. I'm just going to
send it out.
S2 (24:35):
Yeah. And anybody who knows me knows how tight lipped,
but also like controlling I am about my new songs,
I don't I don't even like the I don't let
the label hear new songs. I know it's hilarious. I'm very,
very possessive over stuff like that until I know that
(24:58):
it's ready, you know? Um, because often I don't want
voices to speak into it until I know that it's done.
It's my own quirk. But also my art is so
important to me, and I'm also big on timing as
far as, like, I don't decorate for Christmas until the
day after Thanksgiving. Like there's a there's a time, almost stubbornly,
(25:21):
there's a time for things, you know, and I'm working
on that. But to me, this was different. It was
everything about it was different. I just felt like this responsibility,
but also the sense of purpose. And so thankful for
that song.
S1 (25:38):
I want to get to the song itself, but I
wanted to ask about one of the couple of tier
because I know, um, before we do, because one, it's
part of the longer toward the end of the song,
there's this refrain that just repeats again and again, and
it's this couplet that it just says, If I'm not
going to lose it, then promise me you'll use it. Like,
(25:59):
do you remember writing writing that part? Well, I don't know.
I don't even want to talk about. I just want
you to talk about it, if you would.
S2 (26:05):
Well, first of all, it came from like a structure.
Like a song structure. Thought I was like. I feel
like it needs one more statement. You know, it needs.
S1 (26:20):
Like, a bridge of.
S2 (26:22):
It's kind of a bridge, but it's also like, yeah,
it is a bridge. Yeah, it definitely is a bridge.
And listen, I'm one of those guys that is like,
I don't like doing bridges. Um.
S1 (26:34):
Are you a bridge burner?
S2 (26:35):
Is that I'm a bridge burner? Yeah. I don't well,
I'm not good at them, typically. I also feel like
they're very formulaic, and I. I'm such a four on
the Enneagram. I don't like doing anything that's predictable, but from,
you know, serving the song well, I was like, it
needs one more like statement. And I remember we were
(26:59):
sitting there trying to think of what we could say,
and I came up with the phrase, If I'm not
going to lose it, promise me you'll use it. Obviously
I'm rhyming, but I also want to say it because
I feel like God has given me the permission to
be raw with him in that moment. You know, like
(27:20):
also I give him, I think he gives me permission
to question my faith. Sometimes he's not afraid of my
questions and he's not afraid of my informality. And listen.
I'm very reluctant to ever speak for God, but what
I do know of him is that he accepts my worship,
whatever form it comes in, even if it's in lamenting.
(27:44):
You know, because it's all through the Psalms. So and
it's and it's very raw. And so I wanted to
say something raw like, imagine saying God, hey, promise me,
you know, you would say that to your dad, but
you wouldn't say it to God. But in this moment,
God is God is dad, you know? So be informal.
(28:09):
Say promise me you know I will wear these scars,
but you better use them. God. You know, I.
S1 (28:19):
Think the best thing to do here is just to
let people hear the actual song we've been talking about.
We'd love for you to introduce scars and share whatever
else you want about it.
S2 (28:27):
Hey, I'm Brandon Heath. This is my song scars. I
wrote it in a very raw, mournful state, knowing full
well that God is near the brokenhearted and he's okay
for us to arrive, however we are. Here's scars.
S3 (28:52):
Feels like I'm walking away. Survivor of a wreck on
the interstate. Stumbling from the rubble of an earthquake. Still alive.
But I will never be the same. If it's like
I keep waking up from running all night through a nightmare.
Lying wide awake. But I'm stuck there. I can see
(29:12):
the light. But I'm still scared. They say give it time.
You'll be fine. If I get one more piece of advice,
I'll lose my mind. God, I hope this prayer gets
through the ceiling. Not that I don't believe in healing.
(29:35):
I knew I'd be okay, but I'm not feeling it today.
And I want to think that there's a reason. That's
why I'm praying to you, Jesus. Because, you know, it's hard.
Even you had scars that never went away. It's like
a whole different world. I don't even recognize it anymore.
(29:59):
Bleeding from a wound I didn't have before. Walking with
a limp on a shaky floor. And they say give
it time. You'll be fine. It's easy to say when
it's somebody else. It's easy to hope when it's not
for yourself. Oh, God, I hope this prayer gets through
(30:20):
the ceiling. Not that I don't believe in healing. I
know I'll be okay, but I'm not feeling it Today.
And I want to think that there's a reason. That's
why I'm praying to you, Jesus. Because, you know, it's hard,
even you, at scars that never went away. If I'm
(30:43):
not gonna lose it, if I'm not gonna lose it,
promise me you'll use it. Promise me you'll use it. Oh,
(31:04):
my God, I hope this prayer gets through the seed.
Not that I don't believe in healing. I know I'll
be okay, but I'm not feeling it today, and I.
I wanna think that there's a reason. That's why I'm
praying to you, Jesus. Cause, you know, it's hard. Even
(31:25):
you had scars that Never went away. I'm not gonna
lose it, okay? I'm not gonna lose it. Promise me
you'll use it. Promise me you'll use it. Me? If
I'm not gonna lose it. Never go. I'm not gonna
lose it. Promise me you'll use it. Promise me. Promise
(31:50):
me you'll use it. Use it. Even you had scars
that never went away.
S1 (32:06):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
In the spring of 2023, a 28 year old male
walked into the Covenant School in the Green Hills area
(00:23):
of Nashville, Tennessee, armed with an assault rifle and two
smaller guns, and opened fire as he walked through several
levels of the school, killing three nine year old children
and three adults, a custodian, a substitute teacher, and the
head of the school. In the wake of such senseless violence,
singer songwriter Brandon Heath felt overwhelmed with the rest of Nashville.
(00:44):
His own children were set to attend covenant and his
close friend was the chaplain. The private school was near
the center of his own personal community there in Music City,
in the face of such overwhelming despair. Heath eventually found
his way to songwriting, he says, as a way to
process and heal. Much like he always has over the
course of nine studio albums, his latest, entitled The Ache,
(01:07):
was the resulting release, and specifically a song named scars
was birthed out of the devastation of that day. As
Brandon told me on this episode of The Deepest Cut,
it was a songwriting session with some friends that turned
into a raw and vulnerable time of processing the grief
and the pain, the anger and the confusion that resulted
(01:28):
from such a traumatic event. Yet his willingness to voice
his doubts, to be raw with God, as he describes it,
allowed for a song that's provided at least some measure
of healing and perspective for those affected by such a
tragic loss. On this episode of The Deepest Cut, I
sat down with the five time Grammy nominee and eight
time Dove Award winner to discuss Brandon's perspective on artistic
(01:51):
responsibility and how songwriting helps shine a light in such
an all consuming dark time. Stay tuned for our conversation
with Brandon Heath. Hello and welcome to the Deepest Cut.
(02:17):
My name is Matt Conner. I'm your host. Across from
me today, Brandon Heath, celebrated singer songwriter for. Do we
say how long you've been at this? Much, much longer than.
Let me just ask you this to start. First of all,
do you want to say hello? I should give you
the chance to say hello.
S2 (02:34):
Hey, hey. Hello. Hello, everybody. Uh, it has been. It
has been a minute that I've been playing, but not
as long as Andy Peterson.
S1 (02:44):
That's true, that's true. But I'm sure you've seen a
number of people that you've shared the stage with that
you've toured with, that you've written like come and go
in that time, and then you're still very much at it.
S2 (02:56):
Still here, the Lord willing. I'm still here.
S1 (03:00):
Brandon, I want to start actually with a quote around
the new song that you put out with, like the
press of the new album, like in the bio and
things like that, because I want to start with a more,
with a bigger picture. But this quote really gave me something,
I think, a good hook to lean in here with. Here's,
here's what you said about the song scars, which is
going to be the song that we highlight on this episode.
You said it's one of my favorite songwriting experiences I've
(03:22):
ever had, because I feel like in my grief, God
showed up and gave me medicine to disseminate immediately to
my friends. That song reminded me of our responsibility as
artists to say the things we don't know how to say.
Put it to music and then get it out to
the masses as soon as possible to let it do
(03:42):
its healing work.
S2 (03:44):
Mhm.
S1 (03:44):
We talked about the longevity you've had in the industry,
and that sounds like a very veteran thing to say,
that you've learned the way your music works with its
audience and in general have learned some things about the craft.
Can you take me back to 2006, when the debut drops,
and your earliest days of of being a songwriter, singer,
(04:08):
songwriter or artist as a career? Have you always been
aware of that artistic responsibility? Has that been something you've
learned along the way? I can't, I just would love
to hear about that journey from you.
S2 (04:23):
I feel like I have always known about that responsibility
that we have. I remember, I remember early in high
school in an art class, and it says that, um, artists,
their role is to interpret the world as they see it.
(04:44):
And I've never forgotten that. You know, I feel like
that's my my job is to interpret the world as
I see it. And then whether it hits the masses
or not, is really out of my control. You know,
there's there's very few things that I can control, but
I think I can be true to myself and whatever
(05:05):
the language of art or expression that I, that I
speak is, is what will ultimately go into the songs
and hopefully meet people where they are.
S1 (05:19):
Do you remember the first time that you were clued
in to the tangible reality of that? Was there a
first song that you were like, oh my gosh, this
is really creating connective tissue here. People responding in that way.
S2 (05:32):
Mhm. Yeah. So my first I would say my first
big single was I'm not Who I was and it
was the second single I think that they had put
out on me in 2006. The first one was fairly,
you know down the middle, safe if you will, but
even it did pretty well. So, you know, right off
(05:55):
the bat I thought, okay, well, people are liking what
I'm putting out. The label was excited about me. And,
you know, it's always kind of fun to be that
new guy. But the second single that they put out
on me, I was a little nervous about because it
was very specific, very vulnerable. It did not have a chorus,
(06:16):
so it didn't really fit the format of typical songwriting.
I mean, everybody would tell you, you have to have
a chorus, you know, and I would agree, you know,
but I when I wrote that song, I'm not who
I was. I wasn't thinking about any of those things.
It really was a very pure intention of extending forgiveness
(06:39):
to someone from my past who had who had hurt me.
And so when they put it out, uh, people really
connected with it. And I remember so to answer your question,
I was in Houston, Texas. They had been playing it
on Ksbj, which is a larger station in Houston, big listenership,
(07:00):
and I was doing what was called a brown bag
concert at a oh, it was a chick fil A.
So it was it was in the parking lot at
chick fil A.
S1 (07:09):
Wait, are those white bags? Those are white bags, though, right?
S2 (07:12):
Well, you know, call it call it what you will.
A white bag, a white bag concert. But there were
about almost 1500 people who showed up.
S1 (07:23):
You're kidding. At a chick fil A?
S2 (07:25):
Yes, at a chick fil A. And I wasn't really
prepared for that sort of response, but they had opened
up the phone lines a few days prior to people
to say, hey, tell me who you were and who
you are now after having encountered Jesus. And people really
(07:46):
wanted to tell their story. And so I think that's
why what they resonate, what resonated with them from that
song was the phrase I'm not who I was, but
also the vulnerability. And so from the get go in
my career, it was more about vulnerability. And I mean,
(08:09):
that's it. I mean, it was a catchy song. I
just felt so much freedom from the beginning of my career.
To be able to go to a place like that.
S1 (08:18):
That's been the calling card for you the whole time.
It's this blend of melody and, you know, here's the earworm.
You know, the the vehicle in, I guess you will
with the vulnerability there. The balance of that. Has that
always come like pretty easy for you? I mean, is
that kind of what clued you in? Like, I guess
this is what I'm good at. This is what I mean.
Because that's really a labor for for other people where
(08:41):
maybe one comes naturally and, and it's and it's like
a real, like a workmanship to get to the other
side of that.
S2 (08:47):
You know, um, self-sacrifice as far as my own story.
I mean, I can remember since as a kid I've
liked doing that where some people would be scared to
do something like that. I don't know, and listen. Sometimes
I feel like I've overshared about my story. I've had
(09:10):
to learn how to do it a little bit more
low key. Um, because I feel like you can end
up being very vulnerable if you share too much with
too many. You know, I feel like your story. I
feel like there are a few that should know your
whole story, but I don't think it's for everybody, I
(09:32):
really don't. I think it ends up leaving you really
ultra exposed, and I just feel like that's a sacred thing.
That's only for a few, not for everybody.
S1 (09:44):
Can we go inside that? In a couple of ways,
because what I thought you were going to say was
maybe bleeding out like that or being ultra exposed, whatever
that is. I thought you were going to say that's
not good for the audience, maybe in some way, but
you pointed it at you first and said, I think
it's a sacred, sacred thing, almost like for your own sake,
(10:04):
it's only good to share that with a few. Like
what informs that for you? Have you have you felt
burned by that, or like, is there a specific that
you can point to and go.
S2 (10:13):
Okay, I've never felt burned, like nobody's ever betrayed my
confidentiality or whatever.
S1 (10:22):
I guess what informs the sacred term there?
S2 (10:25):
You know, I first read it honestly in Oswald Chambers. Um,
I think he was talking, you know, in My Utmost
for his highest. Oswald Chambers. Right. Is am I saying
that right? Yeah. I think that he gave that in
in one of the excerpts one day. And I tend
to listen to older, wiser people. But I have found
(10:47):
that to be true. Like there was a time when
I was performing and I. I confessed to some sin
to the audience. It felt right at the time. And
then when I left, I almost felt like I had
betrayed myself. You know what I mean? I don't I
don't owe that to them. I don't, and and I
(11:10):
don't think they really needed me to spill my guts
for whatever reason I did. And, you know, I don't
I don't have any regrets. But I do remember feeling like. Brandon, don't.
You don't have to do that. You don't owe that.
You don't owe that to the audience. God is the
place that is you where you can absolutely go as
(11:34):
a confession, you know, with your confession. But I do
feel like there are a few, uh, like, I would have, like,
five guys in my life that really know everything. Maybe six. Um,
I have a men's group that I meet with weekly
where that's kind of the oath. It's the creed that
(11:55):
we have that we. We don't hide anything. And, you know,
that's even that's kind of bold to say because, um,
we all we all have secrets. I think there's a
place for secrets. And sometimes it can feel a little
icky saying secrets, you know? But I feel like there
are a few people, including your spouse, that there needs
(12:19):
to be no secrets from. You know, there's even some
things that my therapist knows that not necessarily even my
closest friends know, but I think as long as you're
known by somebody, uh, then it's good. But letting it
all hang out there, you know, you have these people
that write these tell all, um, memoirs. And, you know,
(12:41):
I guess if you feel like you need to do that,
then go for it. I don't feel like that's really me.
Although I would like to write a memoir someday, I
don't think it needs to be, like, salacious or every detail. Yeah,
like you said, like me bleeding out. I don't think
that's good for anybody. I really don't. It almost feels
(13:03):
like voyeuristic as the reader to to hear things like that. Now,
when it comes to songs, I think I do like
being self-sacrificial, but I think there's an artistic way to
do it.
S1 (13:18):
Take me to the new album, maybe this song through
that lens. Like what? Like, what's a good example from
this batch and maybe even scars itself?
S2 (13:27):
Yeah. The very first song on the record. Um, The Ache.
It was actually the last song that I wrote for
the record.
S1 (13:35):
And ended up being the title track.
S2 (13:37):
Yeah, but I already knew the title. I already knew
that the record was called The Ache, because I was
trying to describe a feeling that I used to have
for my father when I was a kid, uh, when
I when I missed him, there was a season that
my dad was not present in my life. And I
think it's because he was figuring out his own. He
(13:58):
was figuring it out his own priorities and what he
wanted to be about. I think he wanted to be
a dad, but I think he just needed to remove himself,
as we all do sometimes, whether it be a sabbatical or.
But this was like a year and a half, which
is too long to be out of a kid's life. So, um,
(14:18):
my mom passed away last year, so, you know, this
is deep pain for me. Yeah, but I'm also recalling,
when I was a kid, my dad just being gone,
and me seeing this sign from the backyard of my
babysitter's house. We could see the sign of the the
place where my dad worked. And I would go to
(14:40):
the edge of the fence when I was missing him
and I was thinking about him, I would just go
and look at the sign because that's about all I
had of him in that season.
S1 (14:50):
But you knew he was there.
S2 (14:51):
He was probably there at some point during that day. Now, again,
I'm four years old. These are things that a four
year old is not really supposed to think about. But
I vividly remember it. I remember missing him, and I
remember the feeling. It's a physical feeling, the ache. So
when it comes to the song, I knew that I
(15:11):
wanted to write a song, but this was like my
third iteration of the song, and I knew. I knew
what I wanted to say. I just didn't know how
to say it. So I went back to the drawing
board of I'm Not Who I was and wrote it
very autobiographically, you know, very specific to my story and
(15:32):
my experience, and that seemed to be the best way
to do it. So yeah, I'm, I'm really allowing the
person listening in. But I, again, have also seen how
that sort of approach connects to people.
S1 (15:45):
Is that true of your favorite artists as well? Like
your like your own listening experience? Is that littered with
artists who do the same?
S2 (15:53):
Man, that's a great question. I want to say no,
I don't. I know that's I know that's an interesting.
S1 (15:59):
I totally thought that was a softball question where you'd say,
oh yeah, absolutely. But you just totally punted on that one.
S2 (16:06):
Any, any, any question you're going to ask me? I'm
going to answer brutally honest.
S1 (16:12):
Just give me the opposite of what I.
S2 (16:13):
Yeah, I feel like it's my own approach. Now, if
there's things that I'm borrowing from other artists, it's storytelling
because I like I like that sort of format, especially
like in country music. They do such a masterful job
of that. The stuff that really inspires me is really
like heady, like Simon and Garfunkel, the the Indigo Girls,
(16:41):
you know, Very poetic, not on the nose, where I
tend to be more on the nose. And I think
you know that the on the nose quality, I think,
comes from country music, because that's what I love. So, yeah,
I feel like most of the people that I'm inspired
by are very poetic and a little bit more gray
than I than black and white.
S1 (17:03):
Take me inside. We talked about the ache already as
the banner over this new set of songs, but scars
in particular. Can you take us inside the context? You
wrote this with a couple other with a couple other guys, right.
S2 (17:17):
Yeah. Mhm.
S1 (17:18):
What was the writing session for that. Like what was
the what's the context there.
S2 (17:22):
Oh man I love that you're asking it in and
you want me. You're inviting me to go in depth
because I don't think I ever have. So you mentioned
my co-writers Micah Kuiper and Paul Duncan. And so I
want to mention them right up front. So March 27th
of last year of of 23. Sorry. Whenever you're seeing this. Um,
(17:46):
March 27th of 23, there was a shooting at a
small Christian school that is in the neighborhood of where
I live, the Covenant School, 200, 200 kids, uh, sixth
grade and under. So very small, very off the radar
sort of private Christian school, the preschool that my girls
(18:11):
were going to at the time often go to the
go on to the Covenant School. So there's a connection
that way in that regard. But also many of my
friends and their children go there. So there's like already
kind of a personal investment. And we had already committed
to go to covenant, the Covenant School, like a month
(18:32):
prior to the shooting. So the shooting happens on a
Monday and it's easily the dark. One of the darkest
days of my life. It harkens for me personally back
to nine over 11. You know, like I know where
I was. I know what season of life I was in,
(18:54):
you know, for the rest of the country. Yeah, they
saw it on the news. For many private schools around
the country, it it highlighted this vulnerability because so many
of us live in the illusion that, well, if we
pay a certain amount of money and it's Christian, then
we are. We're safe. We don't have to worry about it.
(19:14):
But the Covenant School changed that, and we ended up
on this list. And I say we because my children
now attend that school since last year. So just months
after the the event, we started going there, but also
but already I was invested emotionally. The pastor of the
(19:35):
school or chaplain, if you will. His name is Matthew Sullivan.
Matthew has been a pastor of mine in the past
and I immediately thought about him. I'm not recommending that
you go back and look at the footage, but if
if you remember watching the footage of the police arriving
(19:55):
on site. Matthew would have been the guy handing the
keys to the police officers to go into the school.
So already I'm seeing Matthew. I'm knowing what happened, and
I just can't stop thinking about Matthew because he's the
spiritual leader of the school. So now we're on Thursday.
(20:16):
I had a writing session on Tuesday where I just
couldn't write. I couldn't write anything. So I've got a
writing session on Thursday. I know that I'm writing for
The Ache. So I arrive and on my way, on
my way to the writing session, I get a text
from Matthew just because I was checking in on him
to see how he was doing, and he just said
(20:38):
a few things that were. It was obvious that he's
cemented to the school and the experiences cemented to his life.
You know, he'll never be different. He'll never be the same.
So I walk in with these, with these awesome guys.
My first time writing with Micah Kuiper, who's also the producer,
and I was like, guys, I'm sorry, I can't write
(20:59):
about anything but this. So we're we're three days after
the event very much feeling it. Everybody's confused, everybody's sad.
And I said in the writing session, you know, some
people walk with a limp for the rest of their lives.
It feels like, you know, some of these people lost children,
(21:21):
you know, like the the magnitude of losing a child
is pretty unmatched. But then for the whole community to
be kind of traumatized by it. We're going to walk
with a limp for the rest of our life. And
Paul said, you know, even Jesus had scars that never
went away. And when he said that, I was like,
(21:44):
that's the song, that's the song. So amidst real current
pain and physical tears, the three of us wrote the song,
and I felt the Lord's presence in the room like
I have never felt. And so there is something very
(22:09):
special about the song. By the end of the day,
I had a demo. By the way, the master is
much of what we put down that day. So some
of the some of the vocals, most of the track
are what we wrote that day, which by the end
of the day went to Matthew Pastor Sullivan, which in
(22:30):
turn ended up disseminating throughout the school, helping so many
of those Families, putting words and music to what they
were feeling in that moment and basically says, Lord, I
know you're near. I don't feel you right now. I
feel very sad. I know that I'm going to have
(22:52):
this for the rest of my life, but I'm going
to have faith that you're with me and that you
also get it, because even you had scars that never
went away. So for me, I'm like, what a gift
to have written that song and then to send it
like inject it directly into the pain and for it
to be something that would help people in their moment
(23:15):
of pain. That's that is the sole purpose of music,
you know. So I felt this immense amount of gratitude
to be able to, you know, we all want to
do something when tragedy strikes, you know, and we just
don't have any words, you know. And often we don't
(23:37):
have actions. We're just stopped in our tracks. That's why
so many of us give money, you know, because it's like, well,
at least some somebody knows how to use this here's money.
And it's not like you're paying off your grief so
you feel better. It's just, well, I know this is
(23:59):
a way to help.
S1 (24:00):
By the way, how did you was that? You know,
because typically you write a song. It's got to be,
you know, lay it here, here's labels, maybe focus groups,
radio or whatever, where it's like, what songs do we
line up for singles and get it out there in
some way? But you're talking about an immediate, you said
injection into the surrounding community to, I mean, did you
just have full permission to do whatever there was that
(24:24):
like a conscious effort of like, we're going to write
this and put it out immediately? Was it like after
the songwriting session? You're like, people have to hear this
right now. And so screw it. I'm just going to
send it out.
S2 (24:35):
Yeah. And anybody who knows me knows how tight lipped,
but also like controlling I am about my new songs,
I don't I don't even like the I don't let
the label hear new songs. I know it's hilarious. I'm very,
very possessive over stuff like that until I know that
(24:58):
it's ready, you know? Um, because often I don't want
voices to speak into it until I know that it's done.
It's my own quirk. But also my art is so
important to me, and I'm also big on timing as
far as, like, I don't decorate for Christmas until the
day after Thanksgiving. Like there's a there's a time, almost stubbornly,
(25:21):
there's a time for things, you know, and I'm working
on that. But to me, this was different. It was
everything about it was different. I just felt like this responsibility,
but also the sense of purpose. And so thankful for
that song.
S1 (25:38):
I want to get to the song itself, but I
wanted to ask about one of the couple of tier
because I know, um, before we do, because one, it's
part of the longer toward the end of the song,
there's this refrain that just repeats again and again, and
it's this couplet that it just says, If I'm not
going to lose it, then promise me you'll use it. Like,
(25:59):
do you remember writing writing that part? Well, I don't know.
I don't even want to talk about. I just want
you to talk about it, if you would.
S2 (26:05):
Well, first of all, it came from like a structure.
Like a song structure. Thought I was like. I feel
like it needs one more statement. You know, it needs.
S1 (26:20):
Like, a bridge of.
S2 (26:22):
It's kind of a bridge, but it's also like, yeah,
it is a bridge. Yeah, it definitely is a bridge.
And listen, I'm one of those guys that is like,
I don't like doing bridges. Um.
S1 (26:34):
Are you a bridge burner?
S2 (26:35):
Is that I'm a bridge burner? Yeah. I don't well,
I'm not good at them, typically. I also feel like
they're very formulaic, and I. I'm such a four on
the Enneagram. I don't like doing anything that's predictable, but from,
you know, serving the song well, I was like, it
needs one more like statement. And I remember we were
(26:59):
sitting there trying to think of what we could say,
and I came up with the phrase, If I'm not
going to lose it, promise me you'll use it. Obviously
I'm rhyming, but I also want to say it because
I feel like God has given me the permission to
be raw with him in that moment. You know, like
(27:20):
also I give him, I think he gives me permission
to question my faith. Sometimes he's not afraid of my
questions and he's not afraid of my informality. And listen.
I'm very reluctant to ever speak for God, but what
I do know of him is that he accepts my worship,
whatever form it comes in, even if it's in lamenting.
(27:44):
You know, because it's all through the Psalms. So and
it's and it's very raw. And so I wanted to
say something raw like, imagine saying God, hey, promise me,
you know, you would say that to your dad, but
you wouldn't say it to God. But in this moment,
God is God is dad, you know? So be informal.
(28:09):
Say promise me you know I will wear these scars,
but you better use them. God. You know, I.
S1 (28:19):
Think the best thing to do here is just to
let people hear the actual song we've been talking about.
We'd love for you to introduce scars and share whatever
else you want about it.
S2 (28:27):
Hey, I'm Brandon Heath. This is my song scars. I
wrote it in a very raw, mournful state, knowing full
well that God is near the brokenhearted and he's okay
for us to arrive, however we are. Here's scars.
S3 (28:52):
Feels like I'm walking away. Survivor of a wreck on
the interstate. Stumbling from the rubble of an earthquake. Still alive.
But I will never be the same. If it's like
I keep waking up from running all night through a nightmare.
Lying wide awake. But I'm stuck there. I can see
(29:12):
the light. But I'm still scared. They say give it time.
You'll be fine. If I get one more piece of advice,
I'll lose my mind. God, I hope this prayer gets
through the ceiling. Not that I don't believe in healing.
(29:35):
I knew I'd be okay, but I'm not feeling it today.
And I want to think that there's a reason. That's
why I'm praying to you, Jesus. Because, you know, it's hard.
Even you had scars that never went away. It's like
a whole different world. I don't even recognize it anymore.
(29:59):
Bleeding from a wound I didn't have before. Walking with
a limp on a shaky floor. And they say give
it time. You'll be fine. It's easy to say when
it's somebody else. It's easy to hope when it's not
for yourself. Oh, God, I hope this prayer gets through
(30:20):
the ceiling. Not that I don't believe in healing. I
know I'll be okay, but I'm not feeling it Today.
And I want to think that there's a reason. That's
why I'm praying to you, Jesus. Because, you know, it's hard,
even you, at scars that never went away. If I'm
(30:43):
not gonna lose it, if I'm not gonna lose it,
promise me you'll use it. Promise me you'll use it. Oh,
(31:04):
my God, I hope this prayer gets through the seed.
Not that I don't believe in healing. I know I'll
be okay, but I'm not feeling it today, and I.
I wanna think that there's a reason. That's why I'm
praying to you, Jesus. Cause, you know, it's hard. Even
(31:25):
you had scars that Never went away. I'm not gonna
lose it, okay? I'm not gonna lose it. Promise me
you'll use it. Promise me you'll use it. Me? If
I'm not gonna lose it. Never go. I'm not gonna
lose it. Promise me you'll use it. Promise me. Promise
(31:50):
me you'll use it. Use it. Even you had scars
that never went away.
S1 (32:06):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com