October 24, 2025 • 25 mins
When a late-night medical emergency upended Jenny Somers’ world, fear and fragility became unexpected companions. Out of that darkness came “How Long,” a raw and prayerful song shaped by grief, healing, and the Psalms. In this episode of The Deepest Cut, the beloved folk/pop duo Jenny & Tyler open up about the story behind the song, the private ways they process pain through music, and how their art continues to trace the thin places between lament and hope.
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S1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
It all started with a seizure. Jenny Summers, who's one
half of the folk pop duo Jenny and Tyler, was
(00:24):
feeding her newborn daughter in the middle of the night
when her own body gave way. She says she had
just enough time to lay the baby down safely before
everything went black. What followed was a deep and disorienting fear.
It was a fear of being alone, as a fear
of hurting someone. It was a fear that her life
had split in two and she might never feel whole again.
(00:46):
From that place, though, she says, came a song. Now,
if you're new to Jenny and Tyler's music, you're in
for a treat. The music duo has racked up 20
million streams and counting, while getting songs placed on TV
shows like Pretty Little Liars and several others. They've also
shared the stage with Sara Groves and Andrew Peterson while
playing over 1100 concerts over the last decade. On this
(01:08):
episode of The Deepest Cut, we sat down with Jenny
and Tyler Summers to hear more about their songcraft and
the ways they keep some compositions private. Songs meant for
just them as they processed through life's joys and sorrows.
But fortunately, they were also willing to pull back the
curtain for this song entitled How Long? It's a song
that draws from the Psalms and chronicles, a cry for
(01:30):
help from the depths of a very traumatic season for Jenny.
Here's our conversation with Jenny and Tyler on The Deepest Cut.
(01:51):
Hello and welcome back to The Deepest Cut. My name
is Matt Conner, sitting across from me today, at least
on my computer screen. Jenny and Tyler from a band
actually called Jenny and Tyler. Tyler and Jenny Summers are here. Uh,
first of all, I'd love to give you a chance
to say hello. We're so glad to have you on
the podcast.
S2 (02:11):
Hey, thanks for having us. We're happy to be here today.
S3 (02:15):
Agreed. Yeah.
S1 (02:16):
It's kind of a joyful intro for talking about sad
songs here on the podcast. You know, we actually talked
beforehand about a couple of songs that could have actually
been discussed here. We'll be talking about a song called
How Long? There were obviously others. Can I ask about
the selection process first? Like, were there a lot of
songs that qualified for this? How sad are you in
(02:40):
your artistry? Like what? Yeah. What was that like?
S2 (02:43):
So over the last five years, we've just had a
lot of loss in our life from, like, family members
to close friends. Um, and then just like trauma from
having so many children and, like, a very short period
of time, like medical trauma from that and having kids
growing up. So I feel like we process so much
(03:06):
of that, um, through songwriting. Yeah, I think there are
just a lot there are a lot of songs. And
we've also been on a journey with, uh, a family
member who did pass away, um, for a really long time.
It was a very difficult, um, journey with her and so,
so many songs over the last, I don't know.
S3 (03:28):
Decade, 15 years.
S2 (03:29):
15.
S3 (03:30):
Years. Yeah.
S2 (03:30):
Um, stem from that relationship? Um, specifically. Yeah. So there's
just a lot.
S3 (03:37):
Yeah. And my dad has on on kind of a
somewhat humorous note, has been asking us to write and
record happy songs for the past, like 5 or 10 years.
So that's because sad, sad, slow songs come easy. Yeah, yeah.
S1 (03:55):
Is that the catharsis of writing those songs? Is that
what that is?
S3 (03:59):
I think so, yes, I think so. Yeah. It's it's like.
And it's a way to enter into grief and process
it uh, a bit, um, whether it's a song we
release or a song that never is heard by anyone
except us.
S1 (04:13):
How common is that, by the way, for you to say, oh,
I worked on this. You've you've labored over it, you've
crafted this thing, and. Yeah, they're not hearing this. They
as in us.
S3 (04:25):
Most of my songs aren't aren't ever heard. Um, yeah.
I mean, I write so many songs and, uh, and
some just aren't good. Like, they they're good. They're good
for processing life, but they're not good for, like, in,
in my estimation, releasing to the world.
S2 (04:43):
Yeah. I would say I have a lot of those too.
Or like, it becomes like just a little too personal to, like,
release to the wild. Um, so yeah, I feel like
we do often, like when we sit down to release songs,
we're like, we have a big pot to choose from. Um,
and have to be very strategic and intentional about the
(05:04):
choices we make.
S1 (05:05):
This is interesting to me because when I talk to
others about this, even on this podcast or outside of that,
just in my own, you know, history as an interviewer,
usually I hear the opposite side where some artists are like, yep,
anything goes. Like if I'm, you know, I'm not afraid
to put things out there. It's my story. It's, it's
or they'll say most of it at least goes out
(05:26):
there because of the connective tissue that it can, that
can generate with other people. You sound maybe one of
the more care. I don't even want to say careful,
as in like, just careful, but careful, you know, like
it sounds like you approach it as a process of
really caring about who is going to hear this. What
will this do for me if other people hear or
(05:49):
for the people I'm talking about, that kind of thing.
Can you take me into like, what informs that filter
and keeps a lot of those things at bay?
S3 (05:56):
So for me, it's actually like Finishing the song is
a lot of it. It's like, I'll, I'll start the
process and then and I'll have like three quarters of
a song and I won't actually finish it. But even
if I do finish it and I put it like
release it to patrons, we're on Patreon and and our
patrons kind of help us pick what goes on records. Uh,
(06:19):
those those songs are often not picked. Um, or or
we'll yeah, we'll put something out and like, almost just
as like, hey, like we're still doing stuff, guys. Like,
here's the latest song without the thought of this is
going to fit on this, like the theme of this
next record necessarily. So I think, yeah, we try to
(06:41):
be full of care with, uh, with choosing songs that
sort of go together. Um, not not not like concept
album wise necessarily, but in terms of like what, what
general theme is the record carrying?
S2 (06:56):
Yeah. And I think too, when I'm writing, sometimes, you know,
sometimes I'll write about like a real specific issue I'm
having with my pre-teen daughter. You know what I mean?
And it's like, is it kind to release something like that?
Probably not. Um, or I'm writing about, like, you know, processing.
(07:18):
We've been married almost 18 years. So there is so
much that happens in 18 years of marriage, you know.
And so maybe I'm writing something about that. And it's like,
it's I think that it can be really helpful to
release songs about these difficult relationships, you know. Release songs
about parenting, release songs about marriage, because it does help people,
(07:39):
you know, it can make you feel less alone when
you hear a song that's, you know, parallel maybe to
your story. But, um, sometimes it's just like, is that
is that kind to the person in my life who
has inspired this story? We were actually talking with our
kids this morning about the like, is it is it true?
Is it useful? Is it necessary? Is it kind? Um.
(08:04):
Like when you speak, you know, um, thinking about your words.
And do all of these things apply to what you're
about to say? Because if they don't, you know, then maybe.
Maybe it's not the time to say it. Um, yeah.
S3 (08:19):
It makes me think of, uh, of Taylor Swift's Swift's line, um, in, uh,
all too well where she says so casually cruel in
the name of being honest. Uh, like, I feel like
if we release certain songs, that would be sort of
a casual cruelness toward the person who inspired the lyric.
S2 (08:39):
That's that's a that's a big thing to say or
or at least.
S3 (08:44):
Or at least it could be that. I'm not saying
it's necessarily like that's the default intention behind it.
S1 (08:49):
Have you felt like you've you've actually maybe crossed that
line in the past, like, is this a lesson learned?
Because it was like, yeah, we probably shouldn't have released
that one.
S2 (08:58):
I don't think so. I can't think of anything we've
released that I that I'm thinking, wow, I wish that
we hadn't done that.
S3 (09:04):
I agree. Uh, I'm thinking about I'm sorry. From there
will be a song. Yeah. And like it's a song
about that was inspired from a fight like we were.
It's just kind of where we were in the midst
of a fight. And then it's like coming out of that, and.
But even that, like, I feel like we had permission to.
S2 (09:22):
Yeah. And it's about apologizing. You know, it's not about like,
actually fighting. It's about taking that.
S3 (09:31):
And it's kind of it starts like post-fight and then
and then like the resolution of that.
S2 (09:37):
And again, I think that's something that could feel helpful. And,
you know, for people who are dealing like everybody fights. Yeah.
S3 (09:45):
I mean we like Jenny said, we've been married 18 years.
It's it's only by the grace of God that we
are still married. Yeah. I mean, and God's used people
and counseling and therapy and like, podcasts, Actually, uh, and
scripture and so many things to keep us together and,
and like, pursuing each other and loving each other, respecting
(10:07):
and all that. And but it's like it's by the
grace of God. And so I think like, yeah, I
just wanted to like put that out there to not
to say what Danny mentioned 18 years and it like
that feels that feels like a weighty amount of time
to me and maybe to some who are listening to this.
And I just want you to know, it's like it
(10:27):
is by God's grace. Like like praise. Praise be to God.
S1 (10:31):
Man, I appreciate you saying that, by the way. Uh,
I think it was Jenny earlier you referenced, just like, yeah,
we know the power of songs that can, you know, like,
it's it's so heartening when when you hear a song,
you're like, oh, I'm not alone in this thing. I
didn't know if there was actually a song that, like,
came to my like, do you remember? I'm putting you
on the spot here, but what was like the last
song that did that for either one of you?
S2 (10:52):
Uh, well, I can think of a song that's done
that for me over and over again. Um, there's a
song called Song of Good Hope by Glen Hansard. And
this song, it's like it came to me at such
a good, a good moment. And it's the, the chorus
(11:13):
is take your time, babe. It's not as bad as
it seems. You'll be fine. Just stay close to me.
And may good hope. Walk with you through everything. And
you know, like this is not a song that I
would consider to be like a Christian song or anything.
But for me it was like, oh, the having hope.
Sometimes that's just really hard. And if I feel like
(11:35):
when I lose, if you lose hope, that's when you
can really fall into, you know, despairing. Um, and so
this song. Yeah, it's just one that has meant so
much to me. And like Tyler, like something will kind
of talk about with with the song that we're going
to talk about for the, um, for this interview is
(11:56):
that I have epilepsy and Tyler has, you know, after
I have a seizure, has played this song for me
when I'm out of my mind and it helps me
calm down. It was like playing. It was on my
birth playlist. You know, for my kids, it's one that
I sing to them over and over again before they
go to bed. Um, it's just been so powerful to
(12:18):
be like, wow, okay. We like other people need this too.
So that's the one for me that just happens over
and over again.
S4 (12:25):
I love that you even.
S1 (12:26):
Gave a little segue there. You know, you're talking about,
you know, in these moments of despair, certainly there are
some despairing lines or some some lines here in your song.
How long that seem hopeless, you know, or in need
of hope? Uh, can you take us into the context
and like, like where this was written, how this was written,
what's going on around it?
S2 (12:46):
Yeah. So, um, after our third daughter was born, um.
Her name is Mary, and this was. She's almost eight now,
but after she was born, I was feeding her in
the middle of the night, and I had a seizure
and I had just enough time to, like, sit her,
set her down in her crib so that she would
(13:07):
be safe and, like, find Tyler and kind of get
myself to a safe spot before I had the full
like I have tonic clonic like the full blown seizures.
And I remember kind of like the days following the seizure. Um,
(13:27):
it just affected me unlike any seizure I'd had before.
And I think it was really because I had Mary
there with me. And I kept kind of going over
like the what ifs. Like, what if I hadn't set
her down in time? What if I'd been home alone? Um,
all of these things that, like, I'd never really thought before,
(13:49):
just kind of came rushing. And so then I was
afraid to. I was afraid to feed her. I was
afraid to, um, to to be left alone with my kids.
I was afraid to drive. You know, I was just
all of these things. So life felt just, like, super debilitating, um, like,
couldn't get out of bed in the morning, and, uh,
(14:12):
I just, I remember feeling like I'd gone to bed
one night feeling like myself. And then in the middle
of the night had this incident. And then when I
woke up again, it was like, I felt like I
was a different person. And I. I remember just thinking, like,
I didn't know that could happen. How could that how
(14:33):
could that happen? And so I ended up doing, um,
like getting on medication for anxiety and depression, and I,
I just kind of lived for a little while in
what I would just describe as like a state of
constant fear, um, like feeling like I was living from, like,
(14:53):
minute to minute, um, like longing for the day to
be over so I could go to sleep, but then
being afraid of going to sleep. So yeah, pretty quickly, I,
I got on medication, I started doing therapy. I did this, um,
thing called eMDR.
S1 (15:10):
Where it goes, like back and forth with the lights
and sound.
S2 (15:14):
Yeah, lights and sound. So I had, like, you know,
they'd play a tone in one ear and a tone
in the other and just, like, bounce back and forth
while you're reliving the experience over and over and over again.
And I ended up reliving all kinds of other stuff, um,
and kind of like really working out, even just my
epilepsy diagnosis when I was younger, um, which was incredible. Like,
(15:38):
I didn't even really know that I needed to work
that out. And coming to the realization even and this
is a little off topic, I guess, but coming to
the realization that I'd felt like I was crazy for
a lot of my life, um, and that I wasn't.
And specifically with the incident with Mary, I remember very
vividly in therapy. The big turning point for me being
(16:03):
when I was reliving it, I could look at her
face and see that she was totally fine, like she
was calm. She didn't even cry. Um, like, I put
her back to bed and she just went back to sleep,
which was actually amazing for this child because this child
did not sleep. Um, but, you know, and so I
(16:26):
saw that and I was like, wow. You know, like,
the Lord was so kind. But the song was written
in the midst of all of that. And, um, in
the midst of healing and feeling like, am I ever
going to feel at home in my body again? Am
I ever going to feel like myself again? And over
the last, I guess, eight years, I think I've come
(16:49):
to the conclusion that I'm not ever going to feel,
you know, exactly like the person I used to be.
But that's because trauma and life changes, you know, it'll
change who you are, naturally. Um, like, that's just going
to happen. And so kind of like becoming okay with
the person I am now and seeing like, my strengths
(17:11):
that have come out of this, um, and the empathy
that I have for other people now who are going
through things like this, I can see more of the
purpose in it. And um, and. Yeah, but yeah, the
song was written when I was like, when is it
going to get better? So yeah, that's like the background there.
S1 (17:30):
Tyler, when you first heard this song, do you remember
your response?
S3 (17:34):
So this song I think was written in 2019 and uh,
it's obviously 20. Well, maybe not obviously to the listener,
depending on when they're listening to this, but it is
May of 2025 right now. And so no, I, I
do not remember where this song started. I do remember
working on it a few years ago and thinking this
(17:57):
song has something to it that is deeply meaningful. Um,
and when I was working on it yesterday, because we're
trying to finalize a new mix and master before it's released, I, uh,
I started talking to Jenny about it in the morning,
and I this is like, in the wake of sleep
deprivation from, like, Jenny's had a sinus infection. Gabe's got
(18:19):
his tonsils out. Um, we've had some construction in our
master bathroom, so we haven't slept in our bedroom for
a while. Um, so, like, I was not my. Not normal.
I'm not normally, like, as weepy, but I was just.
I just started talking about this song, like. And just
started crying, like, kind of like getting. Yeah, weepy. There's
(18:41):
an ache in it that I feel like. Like Psalm three. Um,
is is the how long, O Lord, will you forget
me forever? Um, how long will you hide your face
from me? Um, there's there's such like There's there's ache there.
But I don't always feel that. And I lately have
(19:03):
felt that. Uh, specifically in regards to this song.
S1 (19:07):
Was that the goal with this song is to almost
have like, a psalmic approach to it.
S2 (19:13):
I don't know if that was the goal, but I mean,
that's definitely how it ended up. That line comes comes from,
you know, the Psalms. It's not it's obviously not an
original line. But I mean, I guess it does kind
of like take the form of all of that with
it being a lament, really. Um, but I don't know
that that was the original intention.
S1 (19:34):
The whole, um, you said you're remastering, you know, like
all of that. I'd love to even hear your hopes
for a song like this as you prepare it and
and and get it out there.
S3 (19:46):
Yeah. So production wise, I'm doing something I've never done
before where I have the existing drums from like five
years ago on there. But, uh, Andrew Peacock came and
recorded new drums. I like both drums, so I think
I'm going to like hardpan. One set of drums to
the to the left or and yeah, to the left
(20:08):
and one to the right and see if they can
coexist as sort of this, like what is happening in
my life, um, like sonic statement, um, like a confusing
and there's already so much happening sonically with like, uh,
it's it's unsettling to me. Um, because the, there's like
(20:28):
a choir part in the beginning that's like starts all
the way in the right and then it shifts over
to the left and it goes back. And so it's,
it's got that sense of like, the world is spinning
around me, and I, I'm just trying to hold on
to something. Um, so yeah, I'm still kind of following
that approach as I, uh, remix it.
S2 (20:48):
And I think for me, I've, I have been able
to share a bit of this story with, like, our
little Instagram community, Um, and our little Patreon community, but
I'm hoping that this will give me the opportunity to
share more about, like, postpartum depression and anxiety and mental health. And, um,
(21:14):
because I know there are so many women who deal
with it and who maybe even, like, don't understand that
it's happening. Um, like, I have friends where I've wanted
to say to them, like, uh, I really think you
need to like, this isn't normal, you know, like, you
don't have to just accept this. And so, yeah, I'm
(21:36):
I'm hopeful that it'll help people who have experienced it, like, feel,
feel more validated and less alone. And also that it will,
you know, encourage those who might be walking in it
now who don't know what to do or how to
get help, or maybe that they even need it, um,
to move in that direction toward healing.
S4 (21:57):
Well, I'd love to have you.
S1 (21:59):
Like, take us into the song if you would. And
you know, anything else you want to say about it?
S2 (22:04):
Yeah. Um, so we are Jenny and Tyler.
S3 (22:09):
Hello.
S2 (22:09):
And, um, this is called How long? And my hope
is that you will feel less alone when you hear it.
S5 (22:21):
You changed me, rearranged my heart, scattered the pieces around.
And some have yet to be found. And you made
me into someone I don't know. I see myself in
(22:43):
the mirror I don't feel home. How long will it
take to be me again? How long Until I feel whole.
Take this broken heart and make it beat again. Again.
(23:16):
Take these worn out wings. And make them fly again. Again.
How long, O Lord? It isn't easy. To leave this
(23:48):
all behind. You're everywhere that I look. Beating the door
of my mind. Oh, but Grace comes and holds me
to his chest, rubs my back while I rest. Whispers
all will be made right. Take this broken heart and
(24:16):
make it beat again. Again. And take these worn out wings.
And make them fly again. Again. How long, O Lord?
(24:39):
How long? How long will. You. Take this tiny voice
and make it sing again. Again. And take these empty
(25:08):
hands and fill them up again. Again. How long, O Lord?
How long, O Lord?
S1 (25:38):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
It all started with a seizure. Jenny Summers, who's one
half of the folk pop duo Jenny and Tyler, was
(00:24):
feeding her newborn daughter in the middle of the night
when her own body gave way. She says she had
just enough time to lay the baby down safely before
everything went black. What followed was a deep and disorienting fear.
It was a fear of being alone, as a fear
of hurting someone. It was a fear that her life
had split in two and she might never feel whole again.
(00:46):
From that place, though, she says, came a song. Now,
if you're new to Jenny and Tyler's music, you're in
for a treat. The music duo has racked up 20
million streams and counting, while getting songs placed on TV
shows like Pretty Little Liars and several others. They've also
shared the stage with Sara Groves and Andrew Peterson while
playing over 1100 concerts over the last decade. On this
(01:08):
episode of The Deepest Cut, we sat down with Jenny
and Tyler Summers to hear more about their songcraft and
the ways they keep some compositions private. Songs meant for
just them as they processed through life's joys and sorrows.
But fortunately, they were also willing to pull back the
curtain for this song entitled How Long? It's a song
that draws from the Psalms and chronicles, a cry for
(01:30):
help from the depths of a very traumatic season for Jenny.
Here's our conversation with Jenny and Tyler on The Deepest Cut.
(01:51):
Hello and welcome back to The Deepest Cut. My name
is Matt Conner, sitting across from me today, at least
on my computer screen. Jenny and Tyler from a band
actually called Jenny and Tyler. Tyler and Jenny Summers are here. Uh,
first of all, I'd love to give you a chance
to say hello. We're so glad to have you on
the podcast.
S2 (02:11):
Hey, thanks for having us. We're happy to be here today.
S3 (02:15):
Agreed. Yeah.
S1 (02:16):
It's kind of a joyful intro for talking about sad
songs here on the podcast. You know, we actually talked
beforehand about a couple of songs that could have actually
been discussed here. We'll be talking about a song called
How Long? There were obviously others. Can I ask about
the selection process first? Like, were there a lot of
songs that qualified for this? How sad are you in
(02:40):
your artistry? Like what? Yeah. What was that like?
S2 (02:43):
So over the last five years, we've just had a
lot of loss in our life from, like, family members
to close friends. Um, and then just like trauma from
having so many children and, like, a very short period
of time, like medical trauma from that and having kids
growing up. So I feel like we process so much
(03:06):
of that, um, through songwriting. Yeah, I think there are
just a lot there are a lot of songs. And
we've also been on a journey with, uh, a family
member who did pass away, um, for a really long time.
It was a very difficult, um, journey with her and so,
so many songs over the last, I don't know.
S3 (03:28):
Decade, 15 years.
S2 (03:29):
15.
S3 (03:30):
Years. Yeah.
S2 (03:30):
Um, stem from that relationship? Um, specifically. Yeah. So there's
just a lot.
S3 (03:37):
Yeah. And my dad has on on kind of a
somewhat humorous note, has been asking us to write and
record happy songs for the past, like 5 or 10 years.
So that's because sad, sad, slow songs come easy. Yeah, yeah.
S1 (03:55):
Is that the catharsis of writing those songs? Is that
what that is?
S3 (03:59):
I think so, yes, I think so. Yeah. It's it's like.
And it's a way to enter into grief and process
it uh, a bit, um, whether it's a song we
release or a song that never is heard by anyone
except us.
S1 (04:13):
How common is that, by the way, for you to say, oh,
I worked on this. You've you've labored over it, you've
crafted this thing, and. Yeah, they're not hearing this. They
as in us.
S3 (04:25):
Most of my songs aren't aren't ever heard. Um, yeah.
I mean, I write so many songs and, uh, and
some just aren't good. Like, they they're good. They're good
for processing life, but they're not good for, like, in,
in my estimation, releasing to the world.
S2 (04:43):
Yeah. I would say I have a lot of those too.
Or like, it becomes like just a little too personal to, like,
release to the wild. Um, so yeah, I feel like
we do often, like when we sit down to release songs,
we're like, we have a big pot to choose from. Um,
and have to be very strategic and intentional about the
(05:04):
choices we make.
S1 (05:05):
This is interesting to me because when I talk to
others about this, even on this podcast or outside of that,
just in my own, you know, history as an interviewer,
usually I hear the opposite side where some artists are like, yep,
anything goes. Like if I'm, you know, I'm not afraid
to put things out there. It's my story. It's, it's
or they'll say most of it at least goes out
(05:26):
there because of the connective tissue that it can, that
can generate with other people. You sound maybe one of
the more care. I don't even want to say careful,
as in like, just careful, but careful, you know, like
it sounds like you approach it as a process of
really caring about who is going to hear this. What
will this do for me if other people hear or
(05:49):
for the people I'm talking about, that kind of thing.
Can you take me into like, what informs that filter
and keeps a lot of those things at bay?
S3 (05:56):
So for me, it's actually like Finishing the song is
a lot of it. It's like, I'll, I'll start the
process and then and I'll have like three quarters of
a song and I won't actually finish it. But even
if I do finish it and I put it like
release it to patrons, we're on Patreon and and our
patrons kind of help us pick what goes on records. Uh,
(06:19):
those those songs are often not picked. Um, or or
we'll yeah, we'll put something out and like, almost just
as like, hey, like we're still doing stuff, guys. Like,
here's the latest song without the thought of this is
going to fit on this, like the theme of this
next record necessarily. So I think, yeah, we try to
(06:41):
be full of care with, uh, with choosing songs that
sort of go together. Um, not not not like concept
album wise necessarily, but in terms of like what, what
general theme is the record carrying?
S2 (06:56):
Yeah. And I think too, when I'm writing, sometimes, you know,
sometimes I'll write about like a real specific issue I'm
having with my pre-teen daughter. You know what I mean?
And it's like, is it kind to release something like that?
Probably not. Um, or I'm writing about, like, you know, processing.
(07:18):
We've been married almost 18 years. So there is so
much that happens in 18 years of marriage, you know.
And so maybe I'm writing something about that. And it's like,
it's I think that it can be really helpful to
release songs about these difficult relationships, you know. Release songs
about parenting, release songs about marriage, because it does help people,
(07:39):
you know, it can make you feel less alone when
you hear a song that's, you know, parallel maybe to
your story. But, um, sometimes it's just like, is that
is that kind to the person in my life who
has inspired this story? We were actually talking with our
kids this morning about the like, is it is it true?
Is it useful? Is it necessary? Is it kind? Um.
(08:04):
Like when you speak, you know, um, thinking about your words.
And do all of these things apply to what you're
about to say? Because if they don't, you know, then maybe.
Maybe it's not the time to say it. Um, yeah.
S3 (08:19):
It makes me think of, uh, of Taylor Swift's Swift's line, um, in, uh,
all too well where she says so casually cruel in
the name of being honest. Uh, like, I feel like
if we release certain songs, that would be sort of
a casual cruelness toward the person who inspired the lyric.
S2 (08:39):
That's that's a that's a big thing to say or
or at least.
S3 (08:44):
Or at least it could be that. I'm not saying
it's necessarily like that's the default intention behind it.
S1 (08:49):
Have you felt like you've you've actually maybe crossed that
line in the past, like, is this a lesson learned?
Because it was like, yeah, we probably shouldn't have released
that one.
S2 (08:58):
I don't think so. I can't think of anything we've
released that I that I'm thinking, wow, I wish that
we hadn't done that.
S3 (09:04):
I agree. Uh, I'm thinking about I'm sorry. From there
will be a song. Yeah. And like it's a song
about that was inspired from a fight like we were.
It's just kind of where we were in the midst
of a fight. And then it's like coming out of that, and.
But even that, like, I feel like we had permission to.
S2 (09:22):
Yeah. And it's about apologizing. You know, it's not about like,
actually fighting. It's about taking that.
S3 (09:31):
And it's kind of it starts like post-fight and then
and then like the resolution of that.
S2 (09:37):
And again, I think that's something that could feel helpful. And,
you know, for people who are dealing like everybody fights. Yeah.
S3 (09:45):
I mean we like Jenny said, we've been married 18 years.
It's it's only by the grace of God that we
are still married. Yeah. I mean, and God's used people
and counseling and therapy and like, podcasts, Actually, uh, and
scripture and so many things to keep us together and,
and like, pursuing each other and loving each other, respecting
(10:07):
and all that. And but it's like it's by the
grace of God. And so I think like, yeah, I
just wanted to like put that out there to not
to say what Danny mentioned 18 years and it like
that feels that feels like a weighty amount of time
to me and maybe to some who are listening to this.
And I just want you to know, it's like it
(10:27):
is by God's grace. Like like praise. Praise be to God.
S1 (10:31):
Man, I appreciate you saying that, by the way. Uh,
I think it was Jenny earlier you referenced, just like, yeah,
we know the power of songs that can, you know, like,
it's it's so heartening when when you hear a song,
you're like, oh, I'm not alone in this thing. I
didn't know if there was actually a song that, like,
came to my like, do you remember? I'm putting you
on the spot here, but what was like the last
song that did that for either one of you?
S2 (10:52):
Uh, well, I can think of a song that's done
that for me over and over again. Um, there's a
song called Song of Good Hope by Glen Hansard. And
this song, it's like it came to me at such
a good, a good moment. And it's the, the chorus
(11:13):
is take your time, babe. It's not as bad as
it seems. You'll be fine. Just stay close to me.
And may good hope. Walk with you through everything. And
you know, like this is not a song that I
would consider to be like a Christian song or anything.
But for me it was like, oh, the having hope.
Sometimes that's just really hard. And if I feel like
(11:35):
when I lose, if you lose hope, that's when you
can really fall into, you know, despairing. Um, and so
this song. Yeah, it's just one that has meant so
much to me. And like Tyler, like something will kind
of talk about with with the song that we're going
to talk about for the, um, for this interview is
(11:56):
that I have epilepsy and Tyler has, you know, after
I have a seizure, has played this song for me
when I'm out of my mind and it helps me
calm down. It was like playing. It was on my
birth playlist. You know, for my kids, it's one that
I sing to them over and over again before they
go to bed. Um, it's just been so powerful to
(12:18):
be like, wow, okay. We like other people need this too.
So that's the one for me that just happens over
and over again.
S4 (12:25):
I love that you even.
S1 (12:26):
Gave a little segue there. You know, you're talking about,
you know, in these moments of despair, certainly there are
some despairing lines or some some lines here in your song.
How long that seem hopeless, you know, or in need
of hope? Uh, can you take us into the context
and like, like where this was written, how this was written,
what's going on around it?
S2 (12:46):
Yeah. So, um, after our third daughter was born, um.
Her name is Mary, and this was. She's almost eight now,
but after she was born, I was feeding her in
the middle of the night, and I had a seizure
and I had just enough time to, like, sit her,
set her down in her crib so that she would
(13:07):
be safe and, like, find Tyler and kind of get
myself to a safe spot before I had the full
like I have tonic clonic like the full blown seizures.
And I remember kind of like the days following the seizure. Um,
(13:27):
it just affected me unlike any seizure I'd had before.
And I think it was really because I had Mary
there with me. And I kept kind of going over
like the what ifs. Like, what if I hadn't set
her down in time? What if I'd been home alone? Um,
all of these things that, like, I'd never really thought before,
(13:49):
just kind of came rushing. And so then I was
afraid to. I was afraid to feed her. I was
afraid to, um, to to be left alone with my kids.
I was afraid to drive. You know, I was just
all of these things. So life felt just, like, super debilitating, um, like,
couldn't get out of bed in the morning, and, uh,
(14:12):
I just, I remember feeling like I'd gone to bed
one night feeling like myself. And then in the middle
of the night had this incident. And then when I
woke up again, it was like, I felt like I
was a different person. And I. I remember just thinking, like,
I didn't know that could happen. How could that how
(14:33):
could that happen? And so I ended up doing, um,
like getting on medication for anxiety and depression, and I,
I just kind of lived for a little while in
what I would just describe as like a state of
constant fear, um, like feeling like I was living from, like,
(14:53):
minute to minute, um, like longing for the day to
be over so I could go to sleep, but then
being afraid of going to sleep. So yeah, pretty quickly, I,
I got on medication, I started doing therapy. I did this, um,
thing called eMDR.
S1 (15:10):
Where it goes, like back and forth with the lights
and sound.
S2 (15:14):
Yeah, lights and sound. So I had, like, you know,
they'd play a tone in one ear and a tone
in the other and just, like, bounce back and forth
while you're reliving the experience over and over and over again.
And I ended up reliving all kinds of other stuff, um,
and kind of like really working out, even just my
epilepsy diagnosis when I was younger, um, which was incredible. Like,
(15:38):
I didn't even really know that I needed to work
that out. And coming to the realization even and this
is a little off topic, I guess, but coming to
the realization that I'd felt like I was crazy for
a lot of my life, um, and that I wasn't.
And specifically with the incident with Mary, I remember very
vividly in therapy. The big turning point for me being
(16:03):
when I was reliving it, I could look at her
face and see that she was totally fine, like she
was calm. She didn't even cry. Um, like, I put
her back to bed and she just went back to sleep,
which was actually amazing for this child because this child
did not sleep. Um, but, you know, and so I
(16:26):
saw that and I was like, wow. You know, like,
the Lord was so kind. But the song was written
in the midst of all of that. And, um, in
the midst of healing and feeling like, am I ever
going to feel at home in my body again? Am
I ever going to feel like myself again? And over
the last, I guess, eight years, I think I've come
(16:49):
to the conclusion that I'm not ever going to feel,
you know, exactly like the person I used to be.
But that's because trauma and life changes, you know, it'll
change who you are, naturally. Um, like, that's just going
to happen. And so kind of like becoming okay with
the person I am now and seeing like, my strengths
(17:11):
that have come out of this, um, and the empathy
that I have for other people now who are going
through things like this, I can see more of the
purpose in it. And um, and. Yeah, but yeah, the
song was written when I was like, when is it
going to get better? So yeah, that's like the background there.
S1 (17:30):
Tyler, when you first heard this song, do you remember
your response?
S3 (17:34):
So this song I think was written in 2019 and uh,
it's obviously 20. Well, maybe not obviously to the listener,
depending on when they're listening to this, but it is
May of 2025 right now. And so no, I, I
do not remember where this song started. I do remember
working on it a few years ago and thinking this
(17:57):
song has something to it that is deeply meaningful. Um,
and when I was working on it yesterday, because we're
trying to finalize a new mix and master before it's released, I, uh,
I started talking to Jenny about it in the morning,
and I this is like, in the wake of sleep
deprivation from, like, Jenny's had a sinus infection. Gabe's got
(18:19):
his tonsils out. Um, we've had some construction in our
master bathroom, so we haven't slept in our bedroom for
a while. Um, so, like, I was not my. Not normal.
I'm not normally, like, as weepy, but I was just.
I just started talking about this song, like. And just
started crying, like, kind of like getting. Yeah, weepy. There's
(18:41):
an ache in it that I feel like. Like Psalm three. Um,
is is the how long, O Lord, will you forget
me forever? Um, how long will you hide your face
from me? Um, there's there's such like There's there's ache there.
But I don't always feel that. And I lately have
(19:03):
felt that. Uh, specifically in regards to this song.
S1 (19:07):
Was that the goal with this song is to almost
have like, a psalmic approach to it.
S2 (19:13):
I don't know if that was the goal, but I mean,
that's definitely how it ended up. That line comes comes from,
you know, the Psalms. It's not it's obviously not an
original line. But I mean, I guess it does kind
of like take the form of all of that with
it being a lament, really. Um, but I don't know
that that was the original intention.
S1 (19:34):
The whole, um, you said you're remastering, you know, like
all of that. I'd love to even hear your hopes
for a song like this as you prepare it and
and and get it out there.
S3 (19:46):
Yeah. So production wise, I'm doing something I've never done
before where I have the existing drums from like five
years ago on there. But, uh, Andrew Peacock came and
recorded new drums. I like both drums, so I think
I'm going to like hardpan. One set of drums to
the to the left or and yeah, to the left
(20:08):
and one to the right and see if they can
coexist as sort of this, like what is happening in
my life, um, like sonic statement, um, like a confusing
and there's already so much happening sonically with like, uh,
it's it's unsettling to me. Um, because the, there's like
(20:28):
a choir part in the beginning that's like starts all
the way in the right and then it shifts over
to the left and it goes back. And so it's,
it's got that sense of like, the world is spinning
around me, and I, I'm just trying to hold on
to something. Um, so yeah, I'm still kind of following
that approach as I, uh, remix it.
S2 (20:48):
And I think for me, I've, I have been able
to share a bit of this story with, like, our
little Instagram community, Um, and our little Patreon community, but
I'm hoping that this will give me the opportunity to
share more about, like, postpartum depression and anxiety and mental health. And, um,
(21:14):
because I know there are so many women who deal
with it and who maybe even, like, don't understand that
it's happening. Um, like, I have friends where I've wanted
to say to them, like, uh, I really think you
need to like, this isn't normal, you know, like, you
don't have to just accept this. And so, yeah, I'm
(21:36):
I'm hopeful that it'll help people who have experienced it, like, feel,
feel more validated and less alone. And also that it will,
you know, encourage those who might be walking in it
now who don't know what to do or how to
get help, or maybe that they even need it, um,
to move in that direction toward healing.
S4 (21:57):
Well, I'd love to have you.
S1 (21:59):
Like, take us into the song if you would. And
you know, anything else you want to say about it?
S2 (22:04):
Yeah. Um, so we are Jenny and Tyler.
S3 (22:09):
Hello.
S2 (22:09):
And, um, this is called How long? And my hope
is that you will feel less alone when you hear it.
S5 (22:21):
You changed me, rearranged my heart, scattered the pieces around.
And some have yet to be found. And you made
me into someone I don't know. I see myself in
(22:43):
the mirror I don't feel home. How long will it
take to be me again? How long Until I feel whole.
Take this broken heart and make it beat again. Again.
(23:16):
Take these worn out wings. And make them fly again. Again.
How long, O Lord? It isn't easy. To leave this
(23:48):
all behind. You're everywhere that I look. Beating the door
of my mind. Oh, but Grace comes and holds me
to his chest, rubs my back while I rest. Whispers
all will be made right. Take this broken heart and
(24:16):
make it beat again. Again. And take these worn out wings.
And make them fly again. Again. How long, O Lord?
(24:39):
How long? How long will. You. Take this tiny voice
and make it sing again. Again. And take these empty
(25:08):
hands and fill them up again. Again. How long, O Lord?
How long, O Lord?
S1 (25:38):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
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