June 6, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of The Deepest Cut, Lisa Nicole and Danielle Torres of Out of Eden open up about their song Rolling Stone. They discuss the challenges of writing about family, balancing honesty with responsibility, and navigating the complexities of vulnerability in music. Plus, after nearly 20 years away, they reflect on their journey and what’s next for Out of Eden.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
As it turns out, sharing your story isn't always a
(00:22):
straightforward exercise. The moment you begin to write or sing
about someone else, you hit the wall of responsibility. How
do you handle the sharing of someone else's details? What's
an appropriate level of vulnerability? How do you honor both
the truth and the way of sharing that information that
might impact the life of your neighbor? And what are
(00:43):
your expectations from even sharing it at all? These were
just some of the important considerations and difficult questions faced
by three sisters Lisa Nicole, Andrea Baca and Danielle Torres,
together known as the Grammy nominated group Out of Eden
as they wrote and recorded a song about their father.
On this episode of The Deepest Cut, I sat down
(01:06):
with Lisa and Danielle, two thirds of the Dove Award
winning trio, to discuss their song rolling Stone, which you
can find on the group's 2002 release This Is Your Life.
The song is a difficult one, addressing familial issues that
they wanted to explore in their music in an honest
and authentic way, but doing so within the confines of
(01:26):
the music industry and the stickiness of interpersonal relationships wasn't
so easy after all. After nearly 20 years since their
last studio album, Out of Eden is back with new music,
new energy and a new perspective on their craft. But
for this episode, they were gracious enough to take a
look back at an older favorite to detail one of
(01:47):
the more difficult songs they've ever written and released. Here's
our conversation with Lisa and Danielle. About of Eden. Hello
(02:08):
and welcome to the Deepest Cut. My name is Matt Conner,
and I'm your host. I'm just so thrilled to be
sitting across from two thirds of the group out of Eden.
30 years this year, by the way. Right? Yes. Celebrating
the the group's incredible legacy. Uh, all the way. I
remember getting press releases and hearing about that first album
(02:32):
from Gotye in its nascent days. I'm getting into the
weeds already. First of all, I'd just love to hear
from you. How are you? Love to introduce yourselves here
on the podcast.
S2 (02:41):
Sure. My name is Lisa Nicole. Matt, thank you so
much for having us. Um, I'm really looking forward to
this conversation.
S3 (02:49):
Yeah, my name is Danielle Torres, and ditto what my
sister Lisa said. You know, we just have been looking
forward to this, you know, listening to some of our
songs and just thinking through what they all mean to us.
So we're grateful for the opportunity.
S1 (03:05):
You you both are so kind just to sit down
with us and join us here for, uh, one of
our season two episodes. Obviously, we want to talk about
rolling Stone, which is the song that we're going to
be highlighting. But before we get into that, I actually
want to go back to what you just said, Danielle,
which was we've been relistening to the catalog, and one
of the prompts that we give artists is to find
(03:27):
the song. Like, you know that here on the deepest cut,
we ask artists to, to venture into what is the
song that's been the most difficult or maybe the most
painful that you've written that you'd at least love to
publicly discuss? And so, like, I'd love to pose that
question to either one of you and say, what was
that process like to even identify that song? Can you
(03:48):
take me into that? And was that an easy choice?
Not an easy choice.
S3 (03:51):
Well, I'll let me start on that one, because Lisa
actually writes most of our songs.
S1 (03:57):
Sure.
S3 (03:57):
So when we started, we were all teenagers, so our
catalog was six six records and a greatest hits. And
all of them are just us growing up, us experiencing
the world, us growing in our relationship with each other,
with the Lord. Romantic relationships. So it's all in there.
(04:18):
And I think because we've never shied away from writing
about real world issues, we've really been very honest with
what we were going through in our music. So it
was a little strange, honestly, to go back with that
lens of what were we dealing with when when these
songs were written and what kind of frame of mind?
(04:39):
I remember some of the songs that we didn't even choose.
I just remember they happened in hard times as a
teenager and thinking about the the crying and listening to
our own songs and how it would like be ministering
to us. We didn't even choose those songs. We chose
another one. So that's that's light work. But it was
(05:00):
very interesting going back through and reliving some of those moments.
S2 (05:04):
Yeah, I agree, Danielle. I think having, you know, so
grateful to have such a catalog of music and also
kind of growing up in a time where, you know,
now you can just release single after single after single,
like it doesn't really matter then, you know, singles were
much it was more serious process, like releasing a single.
(05:26):
So we have so many deep cuts and so many
songs that fans would be like, oh, play this one, or,
you know, do this one live. And also kind of
the songs that were the most painful to write and
the ones that were the most difficult to write. That
wasn't always that wasn't always synonymous. Because sometimes for me,
it's it's was easy to write about pain or easy
(05:50):
to write about Heartbreak because that was the outlet that
we had. But I think of a song called Sarah
Jane that we had on our last Peace and Happiness record.
And we're just trying to write about social issues and
just an Out of Eden. We came across so many, um,
(06:12):
different areas of brokenness in our, you know, fan group
and peer group and trying to trying to write a
song about that that wasn't like cheesy, that wasn't, um,
giving some pat response, like, you know, it's all going
to be okay, don't worry. You know, we're talking about,
you know, really deep, you know, socioeconomic issues and trying to,
(06:35):
you know, give words to that. Like that was more
difficult to write. But you know, we're going to talk
about rolling Stone. And I think that came from uh,
was more painful, I think, to write about. So it
was interesting kind of trying to figure out which direction
to go.
S1 (06:49):
Can you take me into the craft of that in general.
You said, you know, sometimes writing from a place of
pain isn't really that difficult. The assumption there for me
would be, is it because the emotions come pouring out
and there's just kind of a like what? Like once
you're bleeding, you just keep bleeding in that way.
S4 (07:07):
You just.
S2 (07:09):
Yeah. I think, um. And I'd love to hear Danielle.
Danielle used to write, um, like, really dark poetry as, like,
a teenager. I'm just going to put her on blast. Um,
so I'm interested to hear her perspective as well. For me,
I think if you are willing to start from a
place of honesty, and that's kind of how I think
(07:32):
we chose to do deal with songwriting. Whether or not
the song would see the light of day is not
the primary thing, but the primary thing is be honest. Um,
and I think when you're willing to just be honest
and just put the words to the page, however they
come out, it's, it's it's not difficult. I think what
starts getting difficult is when we start to edit our
(07:52):
thoughts or try to, you know, question, is this okay? Like,
can somebody handle this? Is this too honest? And those
are all like, you know, legit questions that I think
we have to ask sometimes. But for me, the process
of just writing it out has is not the hardest part.
It's going back and editing and figuring out, does this
(08:13):
make sense? And you know, is this going to help someone?
Is this, you know, something that somebody can relate to?
S1 (08:20):
Danielle what do you yeah. What do you say to
first the dark poetry and and what would you add
to that.
S3 (08:25):
Um, I'd say first off, that's embarrassing.
S5 (08:29):
She was our our po. She's the Poe. Edgar Allan poe?
S3 (08:33):
Yeah. I was definitely into Edgar Allan Poe. Punk rock,
you know, metal, all the things. But growing up in
the spotlight, like when we first went on tour, I
was 13. I think our mom, you know, was very
supportive of our music, but we had a stepdad that
wasn't so supportive. We had a lot going on behind
(08:54):
the scenes. There was a divorce happening. So we're stepping
out on this huge arena tour. 13 years old, dealing with,
you know, a parental figures getting a divorce. It was
a lot. And so I had no idea how like,
where do you put that as a 13 year old?
Getting up there and being like Jesus is the answer.
(09:16):
And believing that, but also experiencing some real turmoil and chaos. And,
you know, just puberty and all of the other things,
but in the spotlight. I remember like young people or
people older than me would come up to me and
be like, hey, like I'm dealing with this problem, or
they'd have these really serious questions or be dealing with
(09:38):
thoughts of suicide. And, and ask us. And we're like
teenagers looking at each other at a, you know, a
signing autograph table going oh my goodness. Like we're not
mature enough for this. So a lot of that came
out in my poetry writing and it was like completely
opposite from what I was experiencing in the spotlight. My
(10:00):
poetry was very dark and and rough and like, kind
of violent, not in a self-sabotage way, but just like
a lashing out at the world way.
S1 (10:13):
Sure. Was it hard to feel space for that, that
you were going through behind the scenes of. No one
in the industry positioning you in that way? It was
like this bright young familial, you know, like there was even,
like a familial cute factor to it. Right? And then
you're describing, I guess, when did you feel that you
maybe started to get a grip on some of that yourself?
(10:37):
I mean, did it take a couple of albums, like,
did it take longer than that?
S3 (10:41):
Yes. I mean, I think it was somewhere probably between
our second and third album that just all the things
that we had been singing about, all the things that
we had been wrestling with, started to make sense for
me in my own life and my own relationship with God.
I actually wrote one of the songs that I did
(11:02):
write was a song called Praise You, and it's reflecting
that whole time of feeling so empty and just like
you had nothing to give, nothing to give to God
in prayer, nothing to give to others. And and then
coming to that realization, really, that God really was everything
for me. And so that's where the song Praise You
(11:25):
came about. But it did take a while. I was
probably somewhere between like 15 and 17 when it all
started clicking, and I felt like I could be really
honest about who I was.
S2 (11:37):
Yeah, I think too, I think we're still, um, I
think in CCM Music and even gospel music. Like still
not fully comfortable with rawness and with not having the answers.
It's like because we know the answer. It also means
(11:58):
that we have to have the answer. And in reality,
sometimes all we have is knowing who the answer is.
And that can go on for days. It can go
on for weeks, months, it can go on for years.
But I think in, you know, in our industry, there's
this like wrap it up real nice and like put
a bow on it and like it's, you know, it's
going to be okay. Like, don't get too sad. Don't
(12:19):
get too. And so I think we wrestled with that
in in songwriting like wanting to be really raw and
wanting to be really real, but also this kind of,
you know, you can't be depressing. Like, you know, lighten
up folks. So, you know, I think we we try
to find that balance, um, and fulfill kind of both
(12:41):
of both pulls, if you will. But it was. It's
difficult to kind of wrestle with that for sure.
S1 (12:47):
I'm so glad you brought that up because it especially
if you're if you are an act going for radio,
there are gatekeepers, there are, you know, those considerations that
you just have to give to the song of. And
you got to distill it down to three minutes, right?
I mean, so you have these experiences, you're saying later
on we were writing about we were wanting to write
honestly about, um, social issues, things that we're seeing, experiencing, feeling.
(13:12):
How much of that were you able to negotiate in
ways that you felt good about, and how much of
that were you like? You know what, I don't like
some of the trades that we're having to make or
some of the cuts of, you know, leaving things on
the cutting room floor. I mean, it was was that
when we talk, when we talk about vulnerability and when
we talk about honesty in that way, what was that
path like for you in such an early age?
S2 (13:34):
Um, so our first record, we were heavily working really,
really closely with TobyMac, Todd Collins and Joey that, that,
you know, did, uh, formed Goatee Productions and then later
Goatee Records. Um, so learned a lot about the craft
of songwriting, um, from Toby. I mean, I think he's
one of the best. And, uh, as you know, the
(13:56):
further away we got from our first record, the more
they trusted us with, uh, you know, our story and
with our ability to write songs. And I felt I
always felt very supported as a songwriter. I always felt
like we were free to be and say whatever we
wanted to say. I think they would give us honest
(14:18):
feedback and even the critique of, well, this may not
work at radio, but you're more than welcome to do it. Um,
and so then we were able to make our own choices,
and so we could have on, you know, the same record,
you know, window, which is really like, you know, bright
and and sunshiny and appraise you. I think those are
(14:39):
on the same record. I'm not sure, but I think so, yeah. Um,
that is a little more introspective and, you know, worshipful
and kind of, you know, a little sad. So they
really allowed us to make those choices, which I'm really
grateful for.
S3 (14:54):
I do find it interesting. I remember early days, we
were told like the rules of Christian radio. So it's
like you're, you're you can do what you want, but
if you want a radio single, you can't ask the question. Like,
we couldn't say things like, are you there, God? Or
why is this happening? It had to like everything, had
(15:18):
to have a neat little bow tied around it. And
it could only be said in the form of an
answer like you are the way, never like are you
the way? That makes sense. So those back then were
like hard rules for radio. So some of our songs
were like, we make the choice to put it in
(15:38):
question form, But we we already know like this isn't
going to go to radio. And so like Lisa said,
we did have a really good mix.
S1 (15:46):
I think that's great that you're given those like permission
to include some of those things in there.
S2 (15:52):
Yeah, yeah. And we got so if I could just
say we we got a lot of feedback, I think
from our listeners that really kind of bolstered our faith
in ourselves in that sense. So we would get letters from,
you know, this is when people wrote letters, um, letters
from people saying, you know, I'm going through this, or
(16:13):
we would meet fans in the audience and then they
would write to us. They would have these, like really serious,
life altering, you know, changes and things going on. And
at the time, you know, I didn't know enough about, like,
discipleship to go, okay, well, let me get you, you know,
go to your church and find somebody to disciple you.
Like we would be the contact person for people all
(16:33):
over the United States and abroad and, you know, being
on the phone with people like counseling. Totally unqualified, but
just like counseling people. And, you know, you know, we're
trying to direct them to their church or to, like,
a real therapist or that sort of thing, but that
having those touch points with people, I think, really fueled
(16:57):
our desire to write honest music and to write music that, um,
address what they were going through. We would even use
some of those stories in our songs, and we would
get a lot of feedback about how our music like
being honest and asking questions and, you know, showcasing pain,
like how that helped other people. And so that really was, um,
(17:18):
you know, fueled to keep going.
S1 (17:20):
Boy, that's great. I mean, it sounds like it informed
you in a meaningful way. And yet what a burden
to place on.
S2 (17:27):
Yeah. For for 18, 19.
S4 (17:29):
13, 14 year olds. It was.
S2 (17:31):
Crazy. I mean, I can't imagine, um, my daughter's 13.
I literally cannot I barely want her to go walk
to chick fil A by herself. Like, I can't imagine, like,
her just being on a 65 city tour with, you know, like,
basically strangers and no parents.
S1 (17:52):
Like, there has to be surreal. If you have a
13 year old to look and go, like to have
that experience and go, this was my 13 age, 13 year.
And here's.
S2 (18:01):
Yeah.
S1 (18:02):
Wow.
S2 (18:02):
Yeah. Like my Danielle was literally 13 on the DC
talk tour, performing every night, going out to sign autographs
and getting on our little Chevy van and driving to
the next city. It's it's wild to think about.
S1 (18:19):
Let's talk about rolling Stone. You know, I know there
were a couple songs that it came down to. What
is it about rolling Stone? Can you take us into
the context and and maybe why this, you know, you
would identify as more difficult or more painful than than others.
S2 (18:35):
So for me, and, um, this song was both difficult
and painful. It was painful because it we had to
think about past pain. It wasn't a current state of pain. Um,
but we had to really think about past pain and
think about our childhood to be able to write about
this song we wanted to write about, um, our dad.
(18:58):
And I think if I tried to, like, go back
in my memory, but this song, there was a sermon
that that I heard that was, was preached by a
man who never knew his father. And, um, he was
just talking about, you know, just how God stepped in
and filled that role, like how you know, and how
(19:18):
he views the Lord and, and kind of breaking down
the difference between what we consider to be, you know, basically,
our earthly father gives us this one picture of God.
But if our earthly father, you know, even if he's awesome,
like he falls short, and in what ways? Like God
is different. And so it triggered the thought to kind
of share our own experience. But we had to go
(19:39):
back and think about that experience to do that. And
we didn't want to do it in a way that
was dishonoring to our dad. We, you know, he we
had been reunited at this point and we're, you know,
had a relationship, but that wasn't always the case. And
so it was like, how do we honestly tell this
story without, you know, you know, just disparaging his, his
(20:03):
character or something like that. So it was it was difficult.
But I wanted to do this one. And I think
Danielle was on the same page and I'll let her
speak for that. But because it is such a prevalent
concept and I think this is probably, um, a song,
one of the songs that we had more feedback on
from more than any other song, I think.
S3 (20:24):
Yeah, I this song was really interesting. First off, it
was shocking to me that Lisa wanted to even write
about this growing up. I had no real memory of
my my biological father, and we were reintroduced to him
when I was like 15. Something like that. For for me,
(20:44):
it felt like the first time because I didn't remember,
you know, when I was like one and a half
or whatever, which was probably the last time I had
seen him. And then through over time, God did this
wonderful restoration with our relationship. Um, and, you know, we
were getting closer. My mom still didn't really talk about him.
So it was just it was an avoided topic, I'll
(21:08):
put it that way. And so for Lisa to want
to write about this was like, wow, we're going there.
You know, it did it did feel like that the
great uncovering of something. So when she said she wanted to, though,
I was on board for sure, because I had heard
so many people that were dealing with the same thing.
(21:30):
And she, you know, she was closer to our father
even from when we were super young. So she had
more of an emotional connection to it, whereas I had
more of an emotional connection to how would this affect
our mother and telling this story? Would it reopen wounds
in her? I don't know that she's I don't know
(21:50):
that she's fully like she doesn't like the song. I'll
put it that way.
S1 (21:55):
Yeah, yeah she will.
S3 (21:57):
She'll say things like, I love that record. Except that
one song, you get real serious about it. So I
can't say that we fully discussed it, but we know
she doesn't love it.
S1 (22:08):
Sure. This, uh, the songs on your fourth record. So
obviously you'd had time to kind of go through the
process of writing, recording, releasing, writing, recording, releasing, clearing the
slate several times of what do I want to talk about?
What is it that we want to say? What are
we going through right now? Does that feel like the
(22:29):
kind of thing that you couldn't have written before then
because you needed to kind of maybe develop the craft
to know how to even unlock that door in a,
in a, in a way that was going to lead
to something or.
S6 (22:40):
That's a great question.
S2 (22:42):
I think with that, this is your life record. We
had kind of solidified ourselves as a group that wasn't
going anywhere in a sense. Like, we had kind of
like proven ourselves. You know, we had we had done,
you know, I think like window and River were like
both like number one on CCM radio for like three
(23:05):
weeks each. And we had, you know, sold, you know,
a significant amount of records. We had toured, we had
done all those things. So this is your life record?
I feel like that was a record where we started
to take risks. Um, musically, more risks, I'll say musically.
And I think that touch point with our audience and
(23:25):
being even more aware of our mission out of Eden
was kind of gifted to us in a sense that
we didn't, you know, we didn't go on Star Search.
We didn't like, you know, we didn't really have to work.
We worked really hard while in Out of Eden. But
it really was something that God just brought to us, like, yes,
(23:45):
do you want to do this or no? Do you
not want to do this? And so we kind of
developed our purpose along the way. And I think by
the this is our life record, we had grown up
a bit. We were more mature. We were starting to,
you know, deal with different life things ourselves. And so
I just feel like it all kind of came together
(24:06):
that we were able to uncover some deeper topics.
S1 (24:10):
Was that difficult to, you know, because some of the songs,
some of the scenes in the song are pretty like vivid, right? Yeah, yeah.
Like you mentioned the very questions that you're asking as
a kid going, you know, like what?
S6 (24:22):
Yeah.
S2 (24:22):
Like where, where are you.
S1 (24:25):
Where are you? What's wrong with me? Like what? Like
citing your own sort of search for validation and and
and love and support and then it's not there.
S2 (24:33):
Yeah.
S1 (24:34):
On this side of that. Like, how in touch did
you feel with that? Because also within the song is
your sort of direction toward the hopeful side, right. Like
the healing that God can provide. I guess I just wonder, like,
does the song reach you in a different way later on,
and how much do you still feel in touch with that,
(24:55):
with the girl who's asking those questions?
S3 (24:57):
I mean, for me, it's like I talked to my
dad two days ago and before we wrote the song,
before there was restoration, that would have been impossible. So
when I hear it, I hear, I mean, it's it
can be difficult to remember those moments, but I hear
so much restoration. I don't I don't personally remember the
(25:22):
pain when I hear it. I'm mostly in awe of
where our relationship is now and what happened over the
years to get us to this place where I can
talk to my dad every week. You know, a man
that I did not know, that was a completely different person.
He's not even he's not that person anymore. So when
(25:45):
I hear it, yeah, they're like, I when we were
thinking about coming on this podcast. Yes. Having to relive
those moments of pain. But overall it just feels like
a testimony to me.
S2 (25:58):
Yeah I agree. Danielle, I think it feels like a
testimony and I, um, just listen to it. And I
think the longer that you live, the more you experience
Rolling Stones in your life. It may not be your father,
it may be a job. It may be a, you know,
a teacher that doesn't, you know, like you in college.
(26:20):
It may be, you know, a career that you want
that escapes you. and there's always that opportunity to put
your to be disappointed. I think life has its way
of just bringing disappointments. And so to me, I could
sub that out with a myriad of things, but also
know that the same way that the Lord brought restoration
(26:43):
in that relationship and brought hope in that relationship in
the same way he brought us through, that is the
same way he's brought me through all other, you know,
all the other things, and you start to learn that
it's not necessarily putting a bow on it, but he actually, like,
God actually can do incredible things. And and so for me,
it's just a, it's a testimony of what God did
(27:06):
in that relationship. And it's just a testimony of just
all the, you know, million little miracles that I feel
like we've walked through in our lives.
S1 (27:14):
Which, as you said, is what makes it so resonant
with other people.
S6 (27:18):
Yeah, yeah.
S2 (27:19):
Yeah. Because it may not be a father for somebody,
but it could be something.
S1 (27:25):
Love that. Well, we'd love to have you introduce the song. And,
you know, now that we've been talking about it, I'm
sure listeners are like, let me hear it. What? Uh.
Or hear it with a fresh, with a fresh sense
and context?
S6 (27:36):
Uh, yes.
S2 (27:37):
Um, well, this is Out of Eden, and this is
the song rolling Stone that we've been discussing, and I
hope that after hearing the story, it resonates with you
and that wherever you are in life, whatever your rolling
Stone is, that the father can and will get you
through it. This is rolling Stone.
S7 (28:00):
Sitting on the front porch waiting for you to come home.
Visions of reuniting in my head. Only bittersweet memories. No holidays,
no Christmas trees. Broken promises I've got instead. How I
(28:20):
used to wonder. Where did I go wrong? How you
could have stayed away so long. Thank God for my mother.
Hers was no easy song. Thank God that he's shown
me how to get along. My papa was a rolling stone.
(28:41):
Abandoned and left us low. And how he broke my
heart and home. Had me lose my faith. Somebody got
what I went through and understood. Happened. Somebody introduced me
to my father. Father. Your story sounds a lot like mine.
(29:03):
The story told a thousand times. Someone hurting leaves in disarray.
Don't you know that God made you more valuable than
they ever knew? You know you can live past their mistakes. Oh,
how I used to wonder. How could all this be
(29:25):
someone that you love so much. Just turn their backs
and leave. All you need the lover of your soul.
And he is faithful to take care of you. And
he will never leave you. Oh, yeah. Hey. Hey, hey.
(29:50):
What you're going through, I understand I've been there too.
Let me introduce you to my father. Father? Yeah. I'm
(30:10):
so glad you found me and saved my soul. Let
me lead you to the one who can make you whole,
Solid ground under my feet. I know what my life
is worth. No longer in confusion. I just wanna tell you.
(30:31):
You are truly love. The maker of heaven. Creator of
the earth. You know he's got his hands on you.
And that is more than enough. My papa was a
rolling stone. Abandoned us and left us alone. How he
broke my heart and home. Had me losing faith. Somebody
(30:53):
saw what I went through and understood. I've been there too.
So glad they introduced me to my father. Father. Your papa. Oh. Hey. Hey,
you losing faith? What you're going through. You know, I've
(31:17):
been there. My body. My body? Yeah. Yeah.
S1 (31:57):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
As it turns out, sharing your story isn't always a
(00:22):
straightforward exercise. The moment you begin to write or sing
about someone else, you hit the wall of responsibility. How
do you handle the sharing of someone else's details? What's
an appropriate level of vulnerability? How do you honor both
the truth and the way of sharing that information that
might impact the life of your neighbor? And what are
(00:43):
your expectations from even sharing it at all? These were
just some of the important considerations and difficult questions faced
by three sisters Lisa Nicole, Andrea Baca and Danielle Torres,
together known as the Grammy nominated group Out of Eden
as they wrote and recorded a song about their father.
On this episode of The Deepest Cut, I sat down
(01:06):
with Lisa and Danielle, two thirds of the Dove Award
winning trio, to discuss their song rolling Stone, which you
can find on the group's 2002 release This Is Your Life.
The song is a difficult one, addressing familial issues that
they wanted to explore in their music in an honest
and authentic way, but doing so within the confines of
(01:26):
the music industry and the stickiness of interpersonal relationships wasn't
so easy after all. After nearly 20 years since their
last studio album, Out of Eden is back with new music,
new energy and a new perspective on their craft. But
for this episode, they were gracious enough to take a
look back at an older favorite to detail one of
(01:47):
the more difficult songs they've ever written and released. Here's
our conversation with Lisa and Danielle. About of Eden. Hello
(02:08):
and welcome to the Deepest Cut. My name is Matt Conner,
and I'm your host. I'm just so thrilled to be
sitting across from two thirds of the group out of Eden.
30 years this year, by the way. Right? Yes. Celebrating
the the group's incredible legacy. Uh, all the way. I
remember getting press releases and hearing about that first album
(02:32):
from Gotye in its nascent days. I'm getting into the
weeds already. First of all, I'd just love to hear
from you. How are you? Love to introduce yourselves here
on the podcast.
S2 (02:41):
Sure. My name is Lisa Nicole. Matt, thank you so
much for having us. Um, I'm really looking forward to
this conversation.
S3 (02:49):
Yeah, my name is Danielle Torres, and ditto what my
sister Lisa said. You know, we just have been looking
forward to this, you know, listening to some of our
songs and just thinking through what they all mean to us.
So we're grateful for the opportunity.
S1 (03:05):
You you both are so kind just to sit down
with us and join us here for, uh, one of
our season two episodes. Obviously, we want to talk about
rolling Stone, which is the song that we're going to
be highlighting. But before we get into that, I actually
want to go back to what you just said, Danielle,
which was we've been relistening to the catalog, and one
of the prompts that we give artists is to find
(03:27):
the song. Like, you know that here on the deepest cut,
we ask artists to, to venture into what is the
song that's been the most difficult or maybe the most
painful that you've written that you'd at least love to
publicly discuss? And so, like, I'd love to pose that
question to either one of you and say, what was
that process like to even identify that song? Can you
(03:48):
take me into that? And was that an easy choice?
Not an easy choice.
S3 (03:51):
Well, I'll let me start on that one, because Lisa
actually writes most of our songs.
S1 (03:57):
Sure.
S3 (03:57):
So when we started, we were all teenagers, so our
catalog was six six records and a greatest hits. And
all of them are just us growing up, us experiencing
the world, us growing in our relationship with each other,
with the Lord. Romantic relationships. So it's all in there.
(04:18):
And I think because we've never shied away from writing
about real world issues, we've really been very honest with
what we were going through in our music. So it
was a little strange, honestly, to go back with that
lens of what were we dealing with when when these
songs were written and what kind of frame of mind?
(04:39):
I remember some of the songs that we didn't even choose.
I just remember they happened in hard times as a
teenager and thinking about the the crying and listening to
our own songs and how it would like be ministering
to us. We didn't even choose those songs. We chose
another one. So that's that's light work. But it was
(05:00):
very interesting going back through and reliving some of those moments.
S2 (05:04):
Yeah, I agree, Danielle. I think having, you know, so
grateful to have such a catalog of music and also
kind of growing up in a time where, you know,
now you can just release single after single after single,
like it doesn't really matter then, you know, singles were
much it was more serious process, like releasing a single.
(05:26):
So we have so many deep cuts and so many
songs that fans would be like, oh, play this one, or,
you know, do this one live. And also kind of
the songs that were the most painful to write and
the ones that were the most difficult to write. That
wasn't always that wasn't always synonymous. Because sometimes for me,
it's it's was easy to write about pain or easy
(05:50):
to write about Heartbreak because that was the outlet that
we had. But I think of a song called Sarah
Jane that we had on our last Peace and Happiness record.
And we're just trying to write about social issues and
just an Out of Eden. We came across so many, um,
(06:12):
different areas of brokenness in our, you know, fan group
and peer group and trying to trying to write a
song about that that wasn't like cheesy, that wasn't, um,
giving some pat response, like, you know, it's all going
to be okay, don't worry. You know, we're talking about,
you know, really deep, you know, socioeconomic issues and trying to,
(06:35):
you know, give words to that. Like that was more
difficult to write. But you know, we're going to talk
about rolling Stone. And I think that came from uh,
was more painful, I think, to write about. So it
was interesting kind of trying to figure out which direction
to go.
S1 (06:49):
Can you take me into the craft of that in general.
You said, you know, sometimes writing from a place of
pain isn't really that difficult. The assumption there for me
would be, is it because the emotions come pouring out
and there's just kind of a like what? Like once
you're bleeding, you just keep bleeding in that way.
S4 (07:07):
You just.
S2 (07:09):
Yeah. I think, um. And I'd love to hear Danielle.
Danielle used to write, um, like, really dark poetry as, like,
a teenager. I'm just going to put her on blast. Um,
so I'm interested to hear her perspective as well. For me,
I think if you are willing to start from a
place of honesty, and that's kind of how I think
(07:32):
we chose to do deal with songwriting. Whether or not
the song would see the light of day is not
the primary thing, but the primary thing is be honest. Um,
and I think when you're willing to just be honest
and just put the words to the page, however they
come out, it's, it's it's not difficult. I think what
starts getting difficult is when we start to edit our
(07:52):
thoughts or try to, you know, question, is this okay? Like,
can somebody handle this? Is this too honest? And those
are all like, you know, legit questions that I think
we have to ask sometimes. But for me, the process
of just writing it out has is not the hardest part.
It's going back and editing and figuring out, does this
(08:13):
make sense? And you know, is this going to help someone?
Is this, you know, something that somebody can relate to?
S1 (08:20):
Danielle what do you yeah. What do you say to
first the dark poetry and and what would you add
to that.
S3 (08:25):
Um, I'd say first off, that's embarrassing.
S5 (08:29):
She was our our po. She's the Poe. Edgar Allan poe?
S3 (08:33):
Yeah. I was definitely into Edgar Allan Poe. Punk rock,
you know, metal, all the things. But growing up in
the spotlight, like when we first went on tour, I
was 13. I think our mom, you know, was very
supportive of our music, but we had a stepdad that
wasn't so supportive. We had a lot going on behind
(08:54):
the scenes. There was a divorce happening. So we're stepping
out on this huge arena tour. 13 years old, dealing with,
you know, a parental figures getting a divorce. It was
a lot. And so I had no idea how like,
where do you put that as a 13 year old?
Getting up there and being like Jesus is the answer.
(09:16):
And believing that, but also experiencing some real turmoil and chaos. And,
you know, just puberty and all of the other things,
but in the spotlight. I remember like young people or
people older than me would come up to me and
be like, hey, like I'm dealing with this problem, or
they'd have these really serious questions or be dealing with
(09:38):
thoughts of suicide. And, and ask us. And we're like
teenagers looking at each other at a, you know, a
signing autograph table going oh my goodness. Like we're not
mature enough for this. So a lot of that came
out in my poetry writing and it was like completely
opposite from what I was experiencing in the spotlight. My
(10:00):
poetry was very dark and and rough and like, kind
of violent, not in a self-sabotage way, but just like
a lashing out at the world way.
S1 (10:13):
Sure. Was it hard to feel space for that, that
you were going through behind the scenes of. No one
in the industry positioning you in that way? It was
like this bright young familial, you know, like there was even,
like a familial cute factor to it. Right? And then
you're describing, I guess, when did you feel that you
maybe started to get a grip on some of that yourself?
(10:37):
I mean, did it take a couple of albums, like,
did it take longer than that?
S3 (10:41):
Yes. I mean, I think it was somewhere probably between
our second and third album that just all the things
that we had been singing about, all the things that
we had been wrestling with, started to make sense for
me in my own life and my own relationship with God.
I actually wrote one of the songs that I did
(11:02):
write was a song called Praise You, and it's reflecting
that whole time of feeling so empty and just like
you had nothing to give, nothing to give to God
in prayer, nothing to give to others. And and then
coming to that realization, really, that God really was everything
for me. And so that's where the song Praise You
(11:25):
came about. But it did take a while. I was
probably somewhere between like 15 and 17 when it all
started clicking, and I felt like I could be really
honest about who I was.
S2 (11:37):
Yeah, I think too, I think we're still, um, I
think in CCM Music and even gospel music. Like still
not fully comfortable with rawness and with not having the answers.
It's like because we know the answer. It also means
(11:58):
that we have to have the answer. And in reality,
sometimes all we have is knowing who the answer is.
And that can go on for days. It can go
on for weeks, months, it can go on for years.
But I think in, you know, in our industry, there's
this like wrap it up real nice and like put
a bow on it and like it's, you know, it's
going to be okay. Like, don't get too sad. Don't
(12:19):
get too. And so I think we wrestled with that
in in songwriting like wanting to be really raw and
wanting to be really real, but also this kind of,
you know, you can't be depressing. Like, you know, lighten
up folks. So, you know, I think we we try
to find that balance, um, and fulfill kind of both
(12:41):
of both pulls, if you will. But it was. It's
difficult to kind of wrestle with that for sure.
S1 (12:47):
I'm so glad you brought that up because it especially
if you're if you are an act going for radio,
there are gatekeepers, there are, you know, those considerations that
you just have to give to the song of. And
you got to distill it down to three minutes, right?
I mean, so you have these experiences, you're saying later
on we were writing about we were wanting to write
honestly about, um, social issues, things that we're seeing, experiencing, feeling.
(13:12):
How much of that were you able to negotiate in
ways that you felt good about, and how much of
that were you like? You know what, I don't like
some of the trades that we're having to make or
some of the cuts of, you know, leaving things on
the cutting room floor. I mean, it was was that
when we talk, when we talk about vulnerability and when
we talk about honesty in that way, what was that
path like for you in such an early age?
S2 (13:34):
Um, so our first record, we were heavily working really,
really closely with TobyMac, Todd Collins and Joey that, that,
you know, did, uh, formed Goatee Productions and then later
Goatee Records. Um, so learned a lot about the craft
of songwriting, um, from Toby. I mean, I think he's
one of the best. And, uh, as you know, the
(13:56):
further away we got from our first record, the more
they trusted us with, uh, you know, our story and
with our ability to write songs. And I felt I
always felt very supported as a songwriter. I always felt
like we were free to be and say whatever we
wanted to say. I think they would give us honest
(14:18):
feedback and even the critique of, well, this may not
work at radio, but you're more than welcome to do it. Um,
and so then we were able to make our own choices,
and so we could have on, you know, the same record,
you know, window, which is really like, you know, bright
and and sunshiny and appraise you. I think those are
(14:39):
on the same record. I'm not sure, but I think so, yeah. Um,
that is a little more introspective and, you know, worshipful
and kind of, you know, a little sad. So they
really allowed us to make those choices, which I'm really
grateful for.
S3 (14:54):
I do find it interesting. I remember early days, we
were told like the rules of Christian radio. So it's
like you're, you're you can do what you want, but
if you want a radio single, you can't ask the question. Like,
we couldn't say things like, are you there, God? Or
why is this happening? It had to like everything, had
(15:18):
to have a neat little bow tied around it. And
it could only be said in the form of an
answer like you are the way, never like are you
the way? That makes sense. So those back then were
like hard rules for radio. So some of our songs
were like, we make the choice to put it in
(15:38):
question form, But we we already know like this isn't
going to go to radio. And so like Lisa said,
we did have a really good mix.
S1 (15:46):
I think that's great that you're given those like permission
to include some of those things in there.
S2 (15:52):
Yeah, yeah. And we got so if I could just
say we we got a lot of feedback, I think
from our listeners that really kind of bolstered our faith
in ourselves in that sense. So we would get letters from,
you know, this is when people wrote letters, um, letters
from people saying, you know, I'm going through this, or
(16:13):
we would meet fans in the audience and then they
would write to us. They would have these, like really serious,
life altering, you know, changes and things going on. And
at the time, you know, I didn't know enough about, like,
discipleship to go, okay, well, let me get you, you know,
go to your church and find somebody to disciple you.
Like we would be the contact person for people all
(16:33):
over the United States and abroad and, you know, being
on the phone with people like counseling. Totally unqualified, but
just like counseling people. And, you know, you know, we're
trying to direct them to their church or to, like,
a real therapist or that sort of thing, but that
having those touch points with people, I think, really fueled
(16:57):
our desire to write honest music and to write music that, um,
address what they were going through. We would even use
some of those stories in our songs, and we would
get a lot of feedback about how our music like
being honest and asking questions and, you know, showcasing pain,
like how that helped other people. And so that really was, um,
(17:18):
you know, fueled to keep going.
S1 (17:20):
Boy, that's great. I mean, it sounds like it informed
you in a meaningful way. And yet what a burden
to place on.
S2 (17:27):
Yeah. For for 18, 19.
S4 (17:29):
13, 14 year olds. It was.
S2 (17:31):
Crazy. I mean, I can't imagine, um, my daughter's 13.
I literally cannot I barely want her to go walk
to chick fil A by herself. Like, I can't imagine, like,
her just being on a 65 city tour with, you know, like,
basically strangers and no parents.
S1 (17:52):
Like, there has to be surreal. If you have a
13 year old to look and go, like to have
that experience and go, this was my 13 age, 13 year.
And here's.
S2 (18:01):
Yeah.
S1 (18:02):
Wow.
S2 (18:02):
Yeah. Like my Danielle was literally 13 on the DC
talk tour, performing every night, going out to sign autographs
and getting on our little Chevy van and driving to
the next city. It's it's wild to think about.
S1 (18:19):
Let's talk about rolling Stone. You know, I know there
were a couple songs that it came down to. What
is it about rolling Stone? Can you take us into
the context and and maybe why this, you know, you
would identify as more difficult or more painful than than others.
S2 (18:35):
So for me, and, um, this song was both difficult
and painful. It was painful because it we had to
think about past pain. It wasn't a current state of pain. Um,
but we had to really think about past pain and
think about our childhood to be able to write about
this song we wanted to write about, um, our dad.
(18:58):
And I think if I tried to, like, go back
in my memory, but this song, there was a sermon
that that I heard that was, was preached by a
man who never knew his father. And, um, he was
just talking about, you know, just how God stepped in
and filled that role, like how you know, and how
(19:18):
he views the Lord and, and kind of breaking down
the difference between what we consider to be, you know, basically,
our earthly father gives us this one picture of God.
But if our earthly father, you know, even if he's awesome,
like he falls short, and in what ways? Like God
is different. And so it triggered the thought to kind
of share our own experience. But we had to go
(19:39):
back and think about that experience to do that. And
we didn't want to do it in a way that
was dishonoring to our dad. We, you know, he we
had been reunited at this point and we're, you know,
had a relationship, but that wasn't always the case. And
so it was like, how do we honestly tell this
story without, you know, you know, just disparaging his, his
(20:03):
character or something like that. So it was it was difficult.
But I wanted to do this one. And I think
Danielle was on the same page and I'll let her
speak for that. But because it is such a prevalent
concept and I think this is probably, um, a song,
one of the songs that we had more feedback on
from more than any other song, I think.
S3 (20:24):
Yeah, I this song was really interesting. First off, it
was shocking to me that Lisa wanted to even write
about this growing up. I had no real memory of
my my biological father, and we were reintroduced to him
when I was like 15. Something like that. For for me,
(20:44):
it felt like the first time because I didn't remember,
you know, when I was like one and a half
or whatever, which was probably the last time I had
seen him. And then through over time, God did this
wonderful restoration with our relationship. Um, and, you know, we
were getting closer. My mom still didn't really talk about him.
So it was just it was an avoided topic, I'll
(21:08):
put it that way. And so for Lisa to want
to write about this was like, wow, we're going there.
You know, it did it did feel like that the
great uncovering of something. So when she said she wanted to, though,
I was on board for sure, because I had heard
so many people that were dealing with the same thing.
(21:30):
And she, you know, she was closer to our father
even from when we were super young. So she had
more of an emotional connection to it, whereas I had
more of an emotional connection to how would this affect
our mother and telling this story? Would it reopen wounds
in her? I don't know that she's I don't know
(21:50):
that she's fully like she doesn't like the song. I'll
put it that way.
S1 (21:55):
Yeah, yeah she will.
S3 (21:57):
She'll say things like, I love that record. Except that
one song, you get real serious about it. So I
can't say that we fully discussed it, but we know
she doesn't love it.
S1 (22:08):
Sure. This, uh, the songs on your fourth record. So
obviously you'd had time to kind of go through the
process of writing, recording, releasing, writing, recording, releasing, clearing the
slate several times of what do I want to talk about?
What is it that we want to say? What are
we going through right now? Does that feel like the
(22:29):
kind of thing that you couldn't have written before then
because you needed to kind of maybe develop the craft
to know how to even unlock that door in a,
in a, in a way that was going to lead
to something or.
S6 (22:40):
That's a great question.
S2 (22:42):
I think with that, this is your life record. We
had kind of solidified ourselves as a group that wasn't
going anywhere in a sense. Like, we had kind of
like proven ourselves. You know, we had we had done,
you know, I think like window and River were like
both like number one on CCM radio for like three
(23:05):
weeks each. And we had, you know, sold, you know,
a significant amount of records. We had toured, we had
done all those things. So this is your life record?
I feel like that was a record where we started
to take risks. Um, musically, more risks, I'll say musically.
And I think that touch point with our audience and
(23:25):
being even more aware of our mission out of Eden
was kind of gifted to us in a sense that
we didn't, you know, we didn't go on Star Search.
We didn't like, you know, we didn't really have to work.
We worked really hard while in Out of Eden. But
it really was something that God just brought to us, like, yes,
(23:45):
do you want to do this or no? Do you
not want to do this? And so we kind of
developed our purpose along the way. And I think by
the this is our life record, we had grown up
a bit. We were more mature. We were starting to,
you know, deal with different life things ourselves. And so
I just feel like it all kind of came together
(24:06):
that we were able to uncover some deeper topics.
S1 (24:10):
Was that difficult to, you know, because some of the songs,
some of the scenes in the song are pretty like vivid, right? Yeah, yeah.
Like you mentioned the very questions that you're asking as
a kid going, you know, like what?
S6 (24:22):
Yeah.
S2 (24:22):
Like where, where are you.
S1 (24:25):
Where are you? What's wrong with me? Like what? Like
citing your own sort of search for validation and and
and love and support and then it's not there.
S2 (24:33):
Yeah.
S1 (24:34):
On this side of that. Like, how in touch did
you feel with that? Because also within the song is
your sort of direction toward the hopeful side, right. Like
the healing that God can provide. I guess I just wonder, like,
does the song reach you in a different way later on,
and how much do you still feel in touch with that,
(24:55):
with the girl who's asking those questions?
S3 (24:57):
I mean, for me, it's like I talked to my
dad two days ago and before we wrote the song,
before there was restoration, that would have been impossible. So
when I hear it, I hear, I mean, it's it
can be difficult to remember those moments, but I hear
so much restoration. I don't I don't personally remember the
(25:22):
pain when I hear it. I'm mostly in awe of
where our relationship is now and what happened over the
years to get us to this place where I can
talk to my dad every week. You know, a man
that I did not know, that was a completely different person.
He's not even he's not that person anymore. So when
(25:45):
I hear it, yeah, they're like, I when we were
thinking about coming on this podcast. Yes. Having to relive
those moments of pain. But overall it just feels like
a testimony to me.
S2 (25:58):
Yeah I agree. Danielle, I think it feels like a
testimony and I, um, just listen to it. And I
think the longer that you live, the more you experience
Rolling Stones in your life. It may not be your father,
it may be a job. It may be a, you know,
a teacher that doesn't, you know, like you in college.
(26:20):
It may be, you know, a career that you want
that escapes you. and there's always that opportunity to put
your to be disappointed. I think life has its way
of just bringing disappointments. And so to me, I could
sub that out with a myriad of things, but also
know that the same way that the Lord brought restoration
(26:43):
in that relationship and brought hope in that relationship in
the same way he brought us through, that is the
same way he's brought me through all other, you know,
all the other things, and you start to learn that
it's not necessarily putting a bow on it, but he actually, like,
God actually can do incredible things. And and so for me,
it's just a, it's a testimony of what God did
(27:06):
in that relationship. And it's just a testimony of just
all the, you know, million little miracles that I feel
like we've walked through in our lives.
S1 (27:14):
Which, as you said, is what makes it so resonant
with other people.
S6 (27:18):
Yeah, yeah.
S2 (27:19):
Yeah. Because it may not be a father for somebody,
but it could be something.
S1 (27:25):
Love that. Well, we'd love to have you introduce the song. And,
you know, now that we've been talking about it, I'm
sure listeners are like, let me hear it. What? Uh.
Or hear it with a fresh, with a fresh sense
and context?
S6 (27:36):
Uh, yes.
S2 (27:37):
Um, well, this is Out of Eden, and this is
the song rolling Stone that we've been discussing, and I
hope that after hearing the story, it resonates with you
and that wherever you are in life, whatever your rolling
Stone is, that the father can and will get you
through it. This is rolling Stone.
S7 (28:00):
Sitting on the front porch waiting for you to come home.
Visions of reuniting in my head. Only bittersweet memories. No holidays,
no Christmas trees. Broken promises I've got instead. How I
(28:20):
used to wonder. Where did I go wrong? How you
could have stayed away so long. Thank God for my mother.
Hers was no easy song. Thank God that he's shown
me how to get along. My papa was a rolling stone.
(28:41):
Abandoned and left us low. And how he broke my
heart and home. Had me lose my faith. Somebody got
what I went through and understood. Happened. Somebody introduced me
to my father. Father. Your story sounds a lot like mine.
(29:03):
The story told a thousand times. Someone hurting leaves in disarray.
Don't you know that God made you more valuable than
they ever knew? You know you can live past their mistakes. Oh,
how I used to wonder. How could all this be
(29:25):
someone that you love so much. Just turn their backs
and leave. All you need the lover of your soul.
And he is faithful to take care of you. And
he will never leave you. Oh, yeah. Hey. Hey, hey.
(29:50):
What you're going through, I understand I've been there too.
Let me introduce you to my father. Father? Yeah. I'm
(30:10):
so glad you found me and saved my soul. Let
me lead you to the one who can make you whole,
Solid ground under my feet. I know what my life
is worth. No longer in confusion. I just wanna tell you.
(30:31):
You are truly love. The maker of heaven. Creator of
the earth. You know he's got his hands on you.
And that is more than enough. My papa was a
rolling stone. Abandoned us and left us alone. How he
broke my heart and home. Had me losing faith. Somebody
(30:53):
saw what I went through and understood. I've been there too.
So glad they introduced me to my father. Father. Your papa. Oh. Hey. Hey,
you losing faith? What you're going through. You know, I've
(31:17):
been there. My body. My body? Yeah. Yeah.
S1 (31:57):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
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